The consensus on Jun Fan?

[DragonzRage]

To all the other JKD peeps out there(Concepts, JFJKD, whatever)...what are your feelings towards Jun Fan? Through my exposure to more and more JKD people out there, I've come to notice a dominant trend of departure from the Jun Fan art. Why is that? I think that Jun Fan (when taught in the hands of a capable instructor) offers great basic skills and is also essential in realizing certain aspects of the JKD spectrum. I am by no means an expert in the realm of JKD (yet /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif) but this is just my opinion. What are your views on this...and if you are a JKD man what is your experience in Jun Fan, if any?

~Max

[Black Jack]

Man I am not looking forward to taking a crack at this question since there are so many out there with a deeper knowledge of its fine points but as they say here is my two cents.

I study JKDC and to me that is the way that Bruce wanted the system to go...not as a static style but as a evolving enitity that allows the student to express himself and to defend himself with the most sound concepts and tools around him at the time.

JKDC has never left Jun Fan...those founding elements are in JKDC and always will be but the system has expanded thanks to Dan Inosanto (sp) into I what I think that Bruce was trying to state in the begining.

My school is more Filipino based than a number of other schools which are more CMA based...we are only around 8-10% Wing Chun where other schools are around 20-25%...it all depends on who you are learning from and what fits you better.

Other JKD schools work a lot of drills but do not let there students spar intell later in there development...we as a PFS lineage school start sparring and drilling right off of the bat...at day number one.

We also work weapons...stick and knife...almost at the same time...where other JKD schools I have seen do not teach armed combat at all and only stick to hand work.

JKD seems to have a very upset crowd at what is true JKD and what is not...to me this is a waste of time and only serves to cloud the great gift that we have in front of us...to me JKDC is what true JKD was always represented as but again it is each to his own.

Regards

Your right but here one of the reasons why simplicity does not sell. The other is that over the last few years so little Jun Fan was taught and then only from the La/Chinatown era
there is alot more to the art then most know
if you look at what was done at Seattle, Oakland
and LA then a whole new world opens up.

Promoting Peace through JKD

[GinSueDog]

I have had the chance of studing both methods and to be honest I feel that both of them have strong and weak points. Personally what bugs me about Jun Fan JKD is that there is almost a lack of growth outside of Bruce Lee's own research making them as closed minded as many traditional MAist IMHO. As it is a number of training methods used and practiced as well as a number of techniques such as trapping I feel are simply outdated. One of the problems with Concepts I feel is many Concepts guys get a little carried away with adding techniques left and right and forgetting the basics. Some of the PFS guys I have trained with are just plain sloppy when it came down to basic boxing and thai boxing skills. Jun Fan, puts a lot of efforting in developing the basics and Concepts puts a lot of effort in continuing your developement, both are important and needed if you are going to be a good fighter. I had a choice between the two and I ended up picking both, and I suppose I was lucky since southern california has so many JKD schools to train with, I had my pick. I am not currently training with a JKD instructor but I have always felt whether I am doing BJJ, or Muay Thai or just boxing, that I am in essence practicing Jeet Kune Do.-ED

"The grappling arts imply most fights end up on the ground...take them there. The striking arts imply all fights start standing up...keep them there. The mixed martial arts imply any fight can go anywhere...be ready and able to go everywhere."-a mix martial artist

[This message was edited by GinSueDog on 09-19-00 at .]

Ginsue,

On this post I agree with on alot of what you wrote however I dis-agree about the lack of growth in JF/JKD.I think there are a huge areas of growth with in JKD
Lets look at a simple hand combination the Jab,Cross,Hook how many ways could you train this ?
Now after you learn the individule tools, footwork
your distance and timing consider.
1. Static
2 With footwork added with each stroke
a.Push shuffle
b.push shuffle with circle steps
3. Against a left lead stance
4. Agaisnt a right lead stance
5. with the cross high
6. With the cross low
7. With the hook low
8. with the hoohk high
9.. varying the rhythen(I could list 5 of these)
I could go on and on an on with this but after there is alot of room for growth here in just one comination let alone many more types of attack one of the ways to dicover even more is to train with diffrent Jf/JKd instructors and also ones from the diffrent era.There are years of research areas in JKD

BTW, Why do you think trapping is outdated in a street fight?



Promoting Peace through JKD

[GinSueDog]

Two of the areas where I feel Jun Fan JKD has shown a lack of growth is primarly with grappling, and the use of simple weapons. I know that Larry Hartsell promotes and has researched a great deal into grappling but to be honest grappling in general in JKD period is pretty weak unless you go outside and crosstrain with a submission wrestler, shootfighter, or BJJ instructor. You just don't get the same level of instruction, I think it says alot that a number of members in the nucleus crosstrain in BJJ for example. The second area is the use of simple weapons, I live in Southern Caly and I have seen a knife pulled or multiple opponents on one or two guys more then a few times. In either of those situations knowing how to use a beer bottle or small knife effectively could prove to be vital. I am not saying Kali is the answer, but I am saying the use of simple weapons should be looked into. As for the effectiveness of trapping, I just don't see the traditional Jun Fan or Wing Chun trapping as effective, IMHO I feel I wasted two years developing techniques that to make it plain just do not work in a real fight. There are simpler techniques that are not pattern based that can pull off the same thing with less risk. Too let you know where I am coming from, I think half the destructions taught in Concepts don't work very well either. Until I see someone pull off a Jun Fan trap or destruction on a good boxer, I won't waste anymore time on it. Lates.-ED

"The grappling arts imply most fights end up on the ground...take them there. The striking arts imply all fights start standing up...keep them there. The mixed martial arts imply any fight can go anywhere...be ready and able to go everywhere."-a mix martial artist

Again you bring up some good points how ever most of the strikes ,trapping kicking chi gerk can be done on the ground also the energy sensitivity drill help here too. Imagine A BJJ guy using the strait blast rather than raising up to strike. There a lot of basic joint locks writ locks and takedown that can be done right out of chi sau . The problem is that if train to "go to the ground" to much
you will end up there.
On trapping ..Most trapping I have seen out there sucks and lacks structure take the pak sau... most are teaching it trapping high on the arm or forearm this gives a street fighter energy for a hook or a jow sau for a Jun fan fighter. It should target the elbow and completely shut the arm down trapped to his rib cage, by push shuffling in trapping his leg and shocking his whole body and structure. Not just a little slap Trapping has to be trained 3 ways refrence point trapping ,Trapping/energy/sensitivity drills and mook jong training or it will never work.

As for weapons everything in Authentic JKD can be applied to simple weapons ( remember fencing is major part of JKD) From the lunge, stance, foot work, trapping, Lin sil die dar, the five ways of attack. So many try to take techniques from weapons art and add it to empty hand JKD instead of taking things from JKD and applying it to Weapons (whole diffrent concept

Promoting Peace through JKD

[GinSueDog]

I am aware of how to perform a proper trap using Jun Fan JKD, and yes many trapping techniques work well on the ground, but the simple truth is most Jun Fan or Wing Chun guys will get eaten up alive on the ground by the average submission grappler. The problem is pulling off any traditional trap in a live fight is going to be next to impossible. Bruce may have been able to do it, but how many people are as skilled or as fast as Bruce? As for the same techniques appling to using a weapon as with empty hands, I think that is only partly true. Most Kali guys are very deadly with a knife or stick, but with empty hands many have shown to be pretty weak even though many of the same concepts apply. As it is if you don't train to use a weapon even if the same techniques apply then it is going to be foreign to you when the time comes to perform. It is like saying because I know how to ride a ten speed, that Ducati shouldn't be a problem it is almost the same thing right? I don't quite think so. I remember my friend and I would spar sometimes for fun after class when we were both training at IMB in Torrance. The only time he would ever be able to pull off a trap is if he surprized me in the parking lot or something. I just rather spend those hours working on something more useful, such as sweeps, passing the guard, basic boxing defenses such as slipping, that in the end are less time consuming and easier to use and pull off. Well that's my two cent.-ED

"The grappling arts imply most fights end up on the ground...take them there. The striking arts imply all fights start standing up...keep them there. The mixed martial arts imply any fight can go anywhere...be ready and able to go everywhere."-a mix martial artist

[origenx]

Ginsudog - I've wondered the same thing. Wing Chun/trapping only work once you're inside punching range, which is similar to boxing range. But like in the UFCs, fighters seem to tend to stay either outside or inside that range, and only zip thru it in passing. That's why boxers never get to box in the UFCs - they can't maintian that range very long, if at all.

Even in Bruce Lee's films, especially like in his fights against Inosanto & that judo guy in Game of Death - he didn't use much wing chun. He usually stayed just outside of kicking range, throwing or jamming a few kicks. Then, he might dart in an opening and land a few punches. But, he would basically just pop in and out of kicking range. Or, once he passed thru punching range, he might stay in real close for a throw or grappling. I just didn't see him ever just hangin around in punching/trapping range very long, and I don't see that in UFCs either.

Ginsu,

Where would I get into a street fight with a submission grappler I wouldn't infact the most I might face is a inner city boxer or someone who did wrestling in highschool. JKD is also called scientific street fighting it is for the streets not for the UFC It is always better to hit but you can train the randon trapping in drills and sensatvity traning not just refrence point trapps this teached you the "when to Trap" not just how

And to the other guy that posted There are only three ranges in JKD not four(punching range?)

Promoting Peace through JKD

[GinSueDog]

BryanS,
The ranges in JKD are merely teaching guilds, but most Jun Fan JKD instructors teach it as four different ranges, Kicking, punching, trapping and grappling. It is up to the instructor, you could teach it as three or as ten if you liked. As for the UFC, I never brought that up, as for running into a submission grappler, I live in southern california. It isn't going to be that far off for me to run into smeone that knows how to fight on the ground as well as knowing how to throw a punch. From where I live I can drive to at least five top grappling schools in under thirty minutes. It isn't that unrealistic for me to get into a fight with someone trained whether it is in a striking skill or a grappling skill it is almost about equal. I suggest you try sparring with someone skilled in boxing and see if you are able to pull off any traps at all, my money says no and I am sure anyone that has actually tested Jun Fan trapping in a full out sparring session against a average striker is going to agree. Hey maybe it is just me, but I do know I haven't sparred anyone yet who was able to pull off a traditional trap on me.-ED

"The grappling arts imply most fights end up on the ground...take them there. The striking arts imply all fights start standing up...keep them there. The mixed martial arts imply any fight can go anywhere...be ready and able to go everywhere."-a mix martial artist

I Know you did not talk about 4 ranges but those are not ranges at they are tool classifications
Bruce only wrote about long med. and close range those are true ranges. I have sparred with boxers and grapplers and I have trapped them and I have stop kicked there attempt to shoot

Promoting Peace through JKD