"Fantasy-base" martial arts

[KPM]

Terence wrote on another belabored thread:

[B]I've been "in" WCK for almost 25 years now, and I've seen many of the "masters" and "grandmasters", and I've seen lots of WCK people, and I've seen many WCK videos, read many WCK books, attended many WCK seminars, etc. And for the overwhelming part, they all teach fantasy-based martial art.

What do I mean by fantasy-based martial art. Well, they don't *start* with something they can really do (and really do use) in fighting and then teach that to others (which would be reality-based martial art) -- like they do in the functional martial arts like BJJ for example. They teach things that they don't really do, and have never done in fighting but teach instead from a theoretical perspective (from a concept or idea of what they believe they can do) and then use unrealistic exercises to practice and reinforce these things (so they begin with a fantasy, and that's the base of what they do). And then if they do "spar", you don't see the very things they practice to do come out at all or if they do, very infrequently or not as they train to do them. [B]

I thought this might make an interesting discussion. While I think that Terrence's central point has some validity, I also think he is using a straw-man argument. It seems like BJJ is the example most often held up of what a "functional" martial art should be like. But even BJJ has found out in recent years that it has had to do some changing and evolving. Terrence says that "fantasy-based" martial arts are those that "teach things that they don't really do, and have never done in fighting." The problem is....who really "fights" anymore? BJJ has discovered that a vast amount of the technique they were teaching for BJJ tournaments simply does not work in an MMA setting, which is closer to "real" fighting. A high percentage of the really slick moves that you see in BJJ tournaments where the opponent is competing under the same mindset simply don't show up often at all in MMA. So is the rolling that the BJJ guys do really all that different from doing Chi Sao? Is BJJ really the "reality" martial art icon that Terrence would have us believe?

Don't get me wrong. I give BJJ kudos for being progressive and willing to adapt and change as needed. This is something that WCK needs to do as well. But BJJ is just as guilty as WCK of developing and teaching technique that is not based on "real" fighting. Rolling with a partner in the gym or in a tournament is not "real" fighting, just like Chi Sao and sparring are not "real" fighting. BJJ is a good example of what a progressive and modern martial art should look like. But let's not give them TOO much credit! ;) Labeling one method as "reality" and the other as "fantasy" is not very useful. Lets just get to training and do our best to progress and evolve.

Keith

[anerlich]

You misspelled Terence's name! He gets peeved when you do that.

[LoneTiger108]

I thought this might make an interesting discussion. While I think that Terrence's central point has some validity, I also think he is using a straw-man argument.

I find it interesting that a thread is actually created in the name of someone who others are trying to ban. I like some of T's posts to be honest, but he has also cheesed me off sometimes, like most others here. But hey! I've ruffled a few feathers myself, so I can't play all angelic lol!

I can't get used to this place! All good though. All good. ;)

[Knifefighter]

But BJJ is just as guilty as WCK of developing and teaching technique that is not based on "real" fighting. Rolling with a partner in the gym or in a tournament is not "real" fighting, just like Chi Sao and sparring are not "real" fighting. BJJ is a good example of what a progressive and modern martial art should look like. But let's not give them TOO much credit! ;) Labeling one method as "reality" and the other as "fantasy" is not very useful. Lets just get to training and do our best to progress and evolve.

BJJ has three distinct divisions- gi, no gi, and vale tudo/mma.

Each division has particular techniques suited to each particular environment. The differerence between BJJ and fantasy MA's is that each of the divisions of BJJ includes full force sparring and competing against fully resisting opponents.

[t_niehoff]

Keith, the simplest way to see what a fantasy-based martial art is to look at where the strategies, tactics, tools, etc. come from (or, perhaps more precisely, how they are shown to be used) -- do they come from experience in fighting, in actually doing those things, seeing that they work well, and then training them, teaching them, etc. or do they come from something besides actual experience, like theory, unrealistic drills, etc. The former is reality-based martial art, the latter fantasy-based martial art (fantasy-based arts like to say they come from experience, but you of course never see it).

BJJ is a reality-based martial art. The techniques, strategies, tactics, etc. they teach, train, etc. are those that they have found through actual experience fighitng work and continue to work in sparring. When your BJJ instructor teaches you, he teaches you from experience, teaching you those things that he *knows* works -- becasue he's either done them or at the very least seen them done, repeatedly, consistently, at high levels of resisitance, in sparring. That is not how fantasy-based martial arts teach or train.

Much of what is trained, taught, etc, in WCK is fantasy -- it is not the stuff people really do or can really do when they fight, it is stuff they fantasize they can do when they fight.

Here is a fantasy sequence from a WCK website:

http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/movie_viewer.asp?obj_width=320&obj_height=240&filename=images/movs/theory/noforce_fast.flv&filesize=

This is fantasy -- no one will ever be able to really do any of that they way it is done in the clip. It's not like they took what really happens in fighting and have demo'ed it. Now, someone can argue that this is just to show the "principles" of WCK. But that begs the question: why demo the "principles" in a way you could never use them?!

So let me ask you: if you train to do stuff like this but can never really do it, how effective is that training? In my view, you would be wasting yoru time. If you can't do in fighting the things you train to do as you train them, aren't you just doing fantasy?

And, btw, to piggy-back on what Dale said, from my perspective fighting is adaptive. And so will adapt your tools, strategies, tactics, etc. to the situation at hand. You take your training in BJJ and adapt it to sport, whether gi or no gi, to vale tudo, to street, etc. It's all fighting. Realistic skills work in anyb realsitic environment, situation. You just need to adapt them.

[k gledhill]

great Dale and T telling everyone what is and what isnt VT :D... ignore thread :rolleyes:

[sanjuro_ronin]

I like fantasy-based MA, you can get to be a jedi or a samurai or a medieval knight, cool stuff like that.
Maybe get a job at medieval times and hit on the wenches.
Fantasy is cool, you can live vicariously through others too, you can pretend you are Rickson, or BJ Penn even :)

And great fun is had by all !

Pass the chicken and ribs wench !!

[JPinAZ]

And, btw, to piggy-back on what Dale said, from my perspective fighting is adaptive. And so will adapt your tools, strategies, tactics, etc. to the situation at hand. You take your training in BJJ and adapt it to sport, whether gi or no gi, to vale tudo, to street, etc. It's all fighting. Realistic skills work in anyb realsitic environment, situation. You just need to adapt them.

Forgetting all the other BS, could you please explain how you 'adapt' BJJ to a street fight where you wish to remain on your feet and not go to the ground? (in case you have to deal with multiple opponents, or just wish to remove yourself from the fight by running, whatever)

[MisterNoobie]

This is fantasy -- no one will ever be able to really do any of that they way it is done in the clip. It's not like they took what really happens in fighting and have demo'ed it.


Terrrance, although i agree with some points you make i think the above is a circular argument....



So let me ask you: if you train to do stuff like this but can never really do it, how effective is that training? In my view, you would be wasting yoru time. If you can't do in fighting the things you train to do as you train them, aren't you just doing fantasy?


I do bjj terrance, and i suck at it. So even basic armbars, mount escapes, single leg takedowns are hard to do for me against skilled guys when we're going at it full force. Does this make bjj fantasy? I dont think so, it only means I suck at it? So i dont think that the above criteria alone is enough to put the official 'fantasy' stamp on any martial art.



And, btw, to piggy-back on what Dale said, from my perspective fighting is adaptive. And so will adapt your tools, strategies, tactics, etc. to the situation at hand. You take your training in BJJ and adapt it to sport, whether gi or no gi, to vale tudo, to street, etc. It's all fighting. Realistic skills work in anyb realsitic environment, situation. You just need to adapt them.

I disagree with this. Lets suppose gi bjj is a realistic skill. Lets also suppose that boxing is a realistic skill. And the ring is a realistic environment. Is my crappling gonna help me in th eboxing ring?

Why is it that gi grappling is assumed to be realistic to fighting? How bout sport tkd? judo? chi sao?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Forgetting all the other BS, could you please explain how you 'adapt' BJJ to a street fight where you wish to remain on your feet and not go to the ground? (in case you have to deal with multiple opponents, or just wish to remove yourself from the fight by running, whatever)

Its a fallacy that BJJ is al about ground work, BJJ as applied to MMA /Vale Tudo incorporates the stand up of Muay Thai, boxing and wrestling.

[nschmelzer]

Much of what is trained, taught, etc, in WCK is fantasy -- it is not the stuff people really do or can really do when they fight, it is stuff they fantasize they can do when they fight.

Here is a fantasy sequence from a WCK website:

http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/movie_viewer.asp?obj_width=320&obj_height=240&filename=images/movs/theory/noforce_fast.flv&filesize=

This is fantasy -- no one will ever be able to really do any of that they way it is done in the clip. It's not like they took what really happens in fighting and have demo'ed it. Now, someone can argue that this is just to show the "principles" of WCK. But that begs the question: why demo the "principles" in a way you could never use them?!

The TWC video clip you cite as evidence of fantasy based training does not purport to be video of a real combat situation. But since we are on the subject of fantasy. Here is another video clip of a fantasy sequence... no punches to the head permitted, no fishooks, etc. Although the differences in videos is obvious, the point is... you are quick to see the fantasy in TMA - but completely blind to the fantasy of those that you tout as realistic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVds78FSl4E

You need to get off your high-horse. Why don't you MMA types go to the MMA forum and talk about how great your martial arts is? Oh - probably because those guys would see right through your BS.

[JPinAZ]

Its a fallacy that BJJ is al about ground work, BJJ as applied to MMA /Vale Tudo incorporates the stand up of Muay Thai, boxing and wrestling.

Sounds like you are saying, to 'apply' BJJ in stand up, you use something else.. like MT, boxing, wrestling, etc. Doesn't sound like BJJ to me, sounds like something else

My question was directly relating to T's post about BJJ being able to adapt to the situation at hand... which IMO is, well, for now I'll keep it to myself until reading his reply :)

[LoneTiger108]

Here is a fantasy sequence from a WCK website:

http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/movie_viewer.asp?obj_width=320&obj_height=240&filename=images/movs/theory/noforce_fast.flv&filesize=

This is fantasy -- no one will ever be able to really do any of that they way it is done in the clip. It's not like they took what really happens in fighting and have demo'ed it. Now, someone can argue that this is just to show the "principles" of WCK. But that begs the question: why demo the "principles" in a way you could never use them?!

So let me ask you: if you train to do stuff like this but can never really do it, how effective is that training? In my view, you would be wasting yoru time. If you can't do in fighting the things you train to do as you train them, aren't you just doing fantasy?

I'd seen this clip before t, and can understand what you say here, for once. ;) But I also argue the point, if you can't actually use what we're looking at here, as a Wing Chun student you haven't put in enough time. I hope that most practitioners can see the set and how they would demo in their way, at their speed, with their power and character. For that is Wing Chun IMO.

The young femme fatale here still has crisp shape. Enough for a download on a website as an example. As for the fantasy, are we talking of some sort if vizualization? Isn't that what we all do to see the next stage of progression? How would you look if you 'copied' this set your way t?

Could be filmed in a second or two, right?

[doug maverick]

i just have a question i studied some bjj not seriously but i've done for a while and why do people consider it more functional then other martial arts. i see it as just as functional as any other functional martial arts. it has its plus's and it has it negatives. me personally i wouldn;t want to grapple with people in the streets for many reason's beyond enviroment beyond if the guy had buddies. mainly the way alot of these street thugs gang memeber fight alot of these guy have razor blades in between their fingers and in their mouths. now what happens when you taking the guy to the ground and he grabs your neck with those razors in between his fingers (i'm not talking about box cutters i'm talking about actual razor blades) or he pulls a razor from the side of his or soemthing like that. i know this may sound crazy for those who don;t really live in urban or gang infested area's but this is a reality and i'm speaking from experience. anyway i say to each his own just do what works for you not what someone else says works for them.

[t_niehoff]

Forgetting all the other BS, could you please explain how you 'adapt' BJJ to a street fight where you wish to remain on your feet and not go to the ground? (in case you have to deal with multiple opponents, or just wish to remove yourself from the fight by running, whatever)

Oh, it's not BS -- fantasy-based MAs abound. And they are easy to spot.

What you wish to do in any fight doesn't mean that will happen. It would be nice if we had that control. We very often don't.

[JPinAZ]

What you wish to do in any fight doesn't mean that will happen. It would be nice if we had that control. We very often don't.

no kidding? wow, I think that's the key we've all been missing :rolleyes:

There you go gain, totally avoiding the question YET AGAIN.

Here, I'll try it again -
In case you forgot already, you said "... You take your training in BJJ and adapt it to sport, whether gi or no gi, to vale tudo, to street, etc. It's all fighting. Realistic skills work in anyb realsitic environment, situation. You just need to adapt them."

to which I said "could you please explain how you 'adapt' BJJ to a street fight where you wish to remain on your feet and not go to the ground? (in case you have to deal with multiple opponents, or just wish to remove yourself from the fight by running, whatever)"

So, again, just so we know you are on the level and not just trolling - How do you take your trianing in BJJ and adapt it to the street if you want to stay standing and keep it there? (forget the sport crap too, you were specifically saying it's all fighting)
Just for grins, since you said it, back it up for once. Or do you not have to qualify ANYTHING you say?

[JPinAZ]

Oh, it's not BS -- fantasy-based MAs abound. And they are easy to spot.
.

ok, list the one's you've spotted :)
And nothing general, get right down to the point and give solid examples. List practitioners, lineages, etc if you'd like. Be specific as possible so we know where you're coming from. Typical answers like "all fantasy-based WC, or aikido, etc" don't count.

[t_niehoff]

Terrrance, although i agree with some points you make i think the above is a circular argument....


It's not circular. A martial art that is reality-based uses experience actually fighting as the basis for which to train, etc. It starts with the fight and sees what things actually work (either via experiement, trial-and-error, whatever) and retains thos things that prove useful. That's why they evolve. Fantasy-based MAs don't do that. They being with a fantasy, an idea, a "concept" (the fantasy) of how fighting should work. And they don't take the next step.



I do bjj terrance, and i suck at it. So even basic armbars, mount escapes, single leg takedowns are hard to do for me against skilled guys when we're going at it full force. Does this make bjj fantasy? I dont think so, it only means I suck at it? So i dont think that the above criteria alone is enough to put the official 'fantasy' stamp on any martial art.


Go back and read my post. I said, "When your BJJ instructor teaches you, he teaches you from experience, teaching you those things that he *knows* works -- becasue he's either done them or at the very least seen them done, repeatedly, consistently, at high levels of resisitance . . ." Did you read that part? What we know is that those things can work, and can work at a very high level AND WE KNOW THAT FROM EXPERIENCE not theoy.

Contrast that, for example, with those WCK people who teach that the biu jee is a finger jab attack, and show pictures, etc. of themselves striking with their fingers. Pure fantasy.



I disagree with this. Lets suppose gi bjj is a realistic skill. Lets also suppose that boxing is a realistic skill. And the ring is a realistic environment. Is my crappling gonna help me in th eboxing ring?

Why is it that gi grappling is assumed to be realistic to fighting? How bout sport tkd? judo? chi sao?

Because something is a realistic skill and adaptive, doesn't mean it works in every situation or context. Obviously ground skills are only going to work on the ground.

You don't understand what it means for a skill to be realistic. It is realistic because we can look at genuine fights and see that these things actually work as they are practiced. You can't tell what is realistic by some theoretical basis. It's based only on observation and experience. If what you are doing in practice doesn't correspond to what you are doing in fighting, then it isn't a realsitic skill.

[t_niehoff]

no kidding? wow, I think that's the key we've all been missing :rolleyes:

There you go gain, totally avoiding the question YET AGAIN.

Here, I'll try it again -
In case you forgot already, you said "... You take your training in BJJ and adapt it to sport, whether gi or no gi, to vale tudo, to street, etc. It's all fighting. Realistic skills work in anyb realsitic environment, situation. You just need to adapt them."

to which I said "could you please explain how you 'adapt' BJJ to a street fight where you wish to remain on your feet and not go to the ground? (in case you have to deal with multiple opponents, or just wish to remove yourself from the fight by running, whatever)"

So, again, just so we know you are on the level and not just trolling - How do you take your trianing in BJJ and adapt it to the street if you want to stay standing and keep it there? (forget the sport crap too, you were specifically saying it's all fighting)
Just for grins, since you said it, back it up for once. Or do you not have to qualify ANYTHING you say?

You aren't understanding what I'm saying. I'm not saying BJJ can be used to do whatever you want. I'm saying the skills that BJJ teach can with adaptation be used in the gym, in the cage, in the ring, in the street, etc.

Instead of looking at it from a style perspective, let's make it simpler. How do you get out of a headlock. That's a realisiic skill. If you have the skill to do that, you can do it in a gym, in the street, in the cage. You may have to adapt it a bit, but the fundamental skill will apply.

[Knifefighter]

mainly the way alot of these street thugs gang memeber fight alot of these guy have razor blades in between their fingers and in their mouths.

LOL @ believing the urban myth of guys walking around with razor blades in their mouths. Even bigger LOL's a someone actually trying to do that in a physical confrontation.

Tell you what... try putting a razor blade in your mouth and tussling around with someone. Get back to me on how many stiches you needed on the inside of your mouth and tongue... that's assuming you didn't swallow it in the first place.

[t_niehoff]

The TWC video clip you cite as evidence of fantasy based training does not purport to be video of a real combat situation.


Thank you. That's exactly my point. It's fantasy. Even as a demo, you are demoing something that won't ever happen. Youa re demoing fantasy. If this is what is being taught, what is being taught is fantasy.

Reality-based MAs can do demos too which aren't real "combat' (LOL!) situations. But they will demo what they really train, what they really do. Not fantasy.



But since we are on the subject of fantasy. Here is another video clip of a fantasy sequence... no punches to the head permitted, no fishooks, etc. Although the differences in videos is obvious, the point is... you are quick to see the fantasy in TMA - but completely blind to the fantasy of those that you tout as realistic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVds78FSl4E


That's not fantasy -- that is an example of realistic skills being actuallty being used. You aren't grasping that realsitic skills are those things that can really be used in fighting, things you can really pull-off against a genuinely resisting opponent trying to beat you. You can have competitions that involve limited realistic skills, as youdo in boxing, MT, wrestling, BJJ, etc. However, that's not the same thing as having techniques, strategies, etc. that won't work under realistic conditions.



You need to get off your high-horse. Why don't you MMA types go to the MMA forum and talk about how great your martial arts is? Oh - probably because those guys would see right through your BS.

MMAists do see right thru BS for the most part, unlike the fantasy-based guys.

[duende]

I do bjj terrance, and i suck at it. So even basic armbars, mount escapes, single leg takedowns are hard to do for me against skilled guys when we're going at it full force. Does this make bjj fantasy? I dont think so, it only means I suck at it? So i dont think that the above criteria alone is enough to put the official 'fantasy' stamp on any martial art.



Very nice point... BJJ is a fine art, but it takes real time put into training, just like everything else.

A friend of mine who studies BJJ (and is also twenty years younger) wanted to spar with me. He's only got a few years in BJJ... so funny enough for him... sparring meant starting on the ground, on his back. Ha! Is that fantasy-based then?? NO... it is simply just a breakdown of the learning progression into basic concepts and a simpler timeframe.

Same thing with this WC clip in question. No one is trying to pass it off as realistic fighting... Imo, it is just a video example of an applied technique with a cooprative training partner in order to let the technique itself be easily demonstrated.

No big deal...

Would that technique alone work in a real fightin situation?? No. Will lying on your back waiting for the fighter to come at you work alone in a real fighting situation?? No.

[Knifefighter]

could you please explain how you 'adapt' BJJ to a street fight where you wish to remain on your feet and not go to the ground? (in case you have to deal with multiple opponents, or just wish to remove yourself from the fight by running, whatever)

Ronin already told you that. You adapt it by using the same tools as MT, boxing, and wrestling do for the standup portion.

[t_niehoff]

I'd seen this clip before t, and can understand what you say here, for once. ;) But I also argue the point, if you can't actually use what we're looking at here, as a Wing Chun student you haven't put in enough time. I hope that most practitioners can see the set and how they would demo in their way, at their speed, with their power and character. For that is Wing Chun IMO.


I'm sure it is WK to *you* and to many, many people. That's precisely my point. It is fantasy fu. Let's see someone actually do that sort of thing in fighting some competant nonWCK people. It won't happen. You can even look at the "fights" the guys that train there had and see they don't do those things when they do fight. Because you can't.



The young femme fatale here still has crisp shape. Enough for a download on a website as an example. As for the fantasy, are we talking of some sort if vizualization? Isn't that what we all do to see the next stage of progression? How would you look if you 'copied' this set your way t?

Could be filmed in a second or two, right?

What are you talking about?

[Knifefighter]

I do bjj terrance, and i suck at it. So even basic armbars, mount escapes, single leg takedowns are hard to do for me against skilled guys when we're going at it full force. Does this make bjj fantasy?

There is one huge difference in what you are doing with a functional arts such as BJJ. The system is set up so that, although you might suck at it now, all you have to do is keep training at it and soon you will be able to proficiently use those tools against full-on resisting opponents.

[t_niehoff]

.

Same thing with this WC clip in question. No one is trying to pass it off as realistic fighting... Imo, it is just a video example of an applied technique with a cooprative training partner in order to let the technique itself be easily demonstrated.

No big deal...

Would that technique alone work in a real fightin situation?? No. Will lying on your back waiting for the fighter to come at you work alone in a real fighting situation?? No.

It's not thatt this technique alone won't work -- the technique itself won't work. And, it shows that people aren't taking things from their fighting that do work and using that as the basis for their training/teaching, but teaching/training from a fantasy of what they beleive will work.

[Knifefighter]

A friend of mine who studies BJJ (and is also twenty years younger) wanted to spar with me. He's only got a few years in BJJ... so funny enough for him... sparring meant starting on the ground, on his back. Ha! Is that fantasy-based then?? NO... it is simply just a breakdown of the learning progression into basic concepts and a simpler timeframe.

Again, big difference between working positional training of the guard and doing something like chi sao. In a fight, you will use the guard the same way you use it in practice... not so with chi sao.

[Knifefighter]

ok, list the one's you've spotted :)
And nothing general, get right down to the point and give solid examples. List practitioners, lineages, etc if you'd like. Be specific as possible so we know where you're coming from. Typical answers like "all fantasy-based WC, or aikido, etc" don't count.

Here are a few good ones to start with:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEmRI9wjA_M&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3Ij8Ns1xSc&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-232DNU8_TI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GiQRlr5NCwk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykD5Z8heVUs

[Sihing73]

Again, big difference between working positional training of the guard and doing something like chi sao. In a fight, you will use the guard the same way you use it in practice... not so with chi sao.

Hello,

Going back to a statement made by T earlier regarding the concepts being trained and explored Chi Sau can and does produce skills applicable in real combat. The problem is that many do not understand what Chi Sau is and is not. Chi Sau is about energy and directing energy it is not limited to the rolling or hands/arms connecting which is but one piece of the puzzle. I once performed Chi Sau with another WC Instructor who thought I was crazy because I was wearing a light jacket. Funny, it did not seem to bother my technique any. While I was in WT we had Seven (7) distinct sections of Chi Sau for training. Each section dealt with a different type of energy. The concepts learned for dealing with energy were directly applicable to fighting and none of them needed to start with rolling, etc. The rolling was simply a training method to assist in learning.

I would agree that a fight will look nothing like Chi Sau, however I would not agree that the concepts and skills developed by Chi Sau are not applicable. If you are in a clinch or close range situation and you are exerting forward energy and you "find" a hole to slip through, this is end result of the Chi Sau practive. It may look nothing like the training but the attribute is a direct result of such training.

It is rare that a technique trained in the gym will look EXACTLY the same when applied on the street. So my question to KF and T is what makes WC training and the application of concepts any different than any other art? Or more simply why is it that WC can not or is not effective?

IMHO, WC can be trained to be just as effective as any other art and in many ways is superior because it trains concepts and is not limited to techniques. Of course, when one has a favorite approach it is easy to become convinced that is the only or best approach, while ignoring the effectiveness of other arts.

[Liddel]

I agree there are many unrealistic people out there. Thats MHO.....

Unrealistic people...that become teachers.

Its a shame people paint the whole community with this label of fantasy based training though, as well as the style.

I dont think people show demos like the one posted as a true representation of what theyd do in fighting :rolleyes:.
What i see from a VT POV is a compicated series of movements that wouldnt happen nor look exactly like that.

From my VT POV, at the initial touch the defender had an opportunity to strike. Quick and direct = VT. But in this demo we see her block.......... Lop.......... then hit etc etc. The tempo is 'demo' paced not 'fight' paced.

Anyway ive come to realise that i cant get away from people saying VT is fantasy based cause i see it myself. But at the same time ive seen others that are more reality grounded, so i dont waste my time b i t c h i n g about those that do things different to me...thats thier perogitive.

I have this pov cause despite what T sez - i dont pay fees or wear little outfits my sifu would laugh if i asked why he doesnt call himself a grandmaster.... and there are many out there that share similar experiences.....

At the end of the day you know in your heart if you are fantasy or reality based...
and it just doesnt apply to learning a MA. :rolleyes:

:cool:
DREW

[Knifefighter]

Each section dealt with a different type of energy. The concepts learned for dealing with energy were directly applicable to fighting and none of them needed to start with rolling, etc. The rolling was simply a training method to assist in learning.

"Energy training" is a halmark of a fantasy based martial art. No funtional trianing method uses "energy training".



I would agree that a fight will look nothing like Chi Sau, however I would not agree that the concepts and skills developed by Chi Sau are not applicable. It is rare that a technique trained in the gym will look EXACTLY the same when applied on the street.

Watch any performance based human activity that is applied in real time against resisting opponents. All of these activities, whether combat related or not, will look almost exactly the same in application as they do in practice... boxing, BJJ, judo, MT, wrestling, volleyball, basketball, soccer, the list goes on and on.



If you are in a clinch or close range situation and you are exerting forward energy and you "find" a hole to slip through, this is end result of the Chi Sau practive. It may look nothing like the training but the attribute is a direct result of such training.

The clinch work of MMA, wrestling and MT comes directly from real time application and looks the same in practice as when done for real... which is why it works and chi sao does not.



So my question to KF and T is what makes WC training and the application of concepts any different than any other art?

Forms done in the air, techniques done against a wooden platform, and rolling hands in a manner that cannot be done for real.

[Liddel]

Here are a few good ones to start with:

Dale - i play the guitar.. i could provide just as many Bad guitar playing vids as bad VT vids from Youtube if not more !

But i still persevere with my guitar playing :)

The difference IMO is i could provide more good guitar playing vids than good VT vids. :o

Im not sure why that is honestly. IMO its not cause good VT doesnt exist. More that those with good training are more concerned with training than internet validation.

DREW

[k gledhill]

ignorance rears its head and opens its mouth :rolleyes:

[anerlich]

No funtional trianing method uses "energy training".

Functional JKD's own Matt Thornton defines aliveness as follows:


Aliveness is timing, energy, and motion.

I know this comes down to semantics and different definitions of "energy", but that's what 99% of forum arguments are about, so I figured it was legit.:D

There is no question BJJ's emergence from Brazil was a giant wakeup call for MA as a whole. There were and are many lessons for serious MA's there.

[Knifefighter]

...

Speaking of fantasy-based martial artists.

[Knifefighter]

Functional
I know this comes down to semantics and different definitions of "energy", but that's what 99% of forum arguments are about, so I figured it was legit.:D.

Functional systems do functional drills. "Energy" naturally comes from the aliveness, specificity and transfer of training from those drills without anybody ever giving it a second thought.

Non-functional systems do non-functional drills and justify them as being good for "energy development."

[doug maverick]

LOL @ believing the urban myth of guys walking around with razor blades in their mouths. Even bigger LOL's a someone actually trying to do that in a physical confrontation.

Tell you what... try putting a razor blade in your mouth and tussling around with someone. Get back to me on how many stiches you needed on the inside of your mouth and tongue... that's assuming you didn't swallow it in the first place.

no myth fool thats a fact, moron. i dare you to come to the south bronx or brooklyn and tell them thats a urban myth i ****ing dare you. watch how fast you go home with buck fifties across you face. people like you end up dead in the street for being so f ucking stupid.

[Sihing73]

Hello,

I practice both WC and Pekiti Tirsia. Many of the "drills" are based on how to deal with the energy of an opponents attack. You also learn to apply concepts based on the energy of the attack not its shape. Consider the various angles trained with using the sticks. You do not need to apply technique A to deflect B as long as you understand the angle and the "energy" which can be applied from that angle.

You mentioned the Dog Brothers and their approach being more "reality" based than many others. It is interesting that much of their approach is based on Pekiti Tirisa.

I also find it interesting that Pekiti Tirsia is recognized by the Phillipine Government and taught to the indigenous Marines. It is also interesting that several Wing Chun Artists, Leung Ting, William Cheung to name a few also have programs specifically for training various Law Enforcement and Milatary units. Not too bad for "Fantasy Based" martial arts. Please be sure to let me know when some of those posting here can add this type of training to their credentials ;)

Oh, for all of the naysayers and advocates of their approach being more realistic than others it is interesting that in 1998 the Pekiti Tirsia Organization held a full contact minimum protection stick fighting event. They invited all comers, BJJ and all, to attend and fight. In the end the only ones who showed up were other PT people. Where were all of the "realistic" fighters who tout their own superior training methods??? :confused:

I make no claims to be a superior martial artists, but I also do not make it a practice of putting down others while offering no proof of their inferiority. Sometimes the biggest wind makes the most noise.

[k gledhill]

Speaking of fantasy-based martial artists.

speaking of ignorant :D

[k gledhill]

Functional systems do functional drills. "Energy" naturally comes from the aliveness, specificity and transfer of training from those drills without anybody ever giving it a second thought.

Non-functional systems do non-functional drills and justify them as being good for "energy development."


you dont know what VT is to even criticize it ....:D

[k gledhill]

no myth fool thats a fact, moron. i dare you to come to the south bronx or brooklyn and tell them thats a urban myth i ****ing dare you. watch how fast you go home with buck fifties across you face. people like you end up dead in the street for being so f ucking stupid.

I also know these gentlemen in London who will 'wet' you for a laugh, several times ....I have had them try it on me ....Dale your kinda living in gym land son, nobody really wants to hurt you in the gym, they arent hiding the knife.

[Liddel]

Theres so many out there with ideas of Dim Mak death touch syndrome, i find it funny how you guys center your arguments over things like chi sao forms and dummies etc.

The dummy is a VT mans protractor.
Forms are for dexterity and basic muscle memory for begginiers, a building block if you will...

Its not rocket science, not big deal....

So many things one could talk about with regard to "Fantasy based" MA's.
LOL

:cool:
DREW

[duende]

It's not thatt this technique alone won't work -- the technique itself won't work. And, it shows that people aren't taking things from their fighting that do work and using that as the basis for their training/teaching, but teaching/training from a fantasy of what they beleive will work.

A pak/da technique will work Terance, but first you need to develop skillsets such as balance, range, footwork, positioning, bridging leverage and control of oncoming energy.

These skillsets come from training and over-time incorporating more and more resistance and challenges.

Anyone can jump in a ring with some protective gear and start banging away... While it's fun to be certain... I wouldn't call it a Martial Art... just a crude search for a lucky punch.


Again, big difference between working positional training of the guard and doing something like chi sao. In a fight, you will use the guard the same way you use it in practice... not so with chi sao.

Not true... Unless you think someone is just going to drop their arms to the side and let you get ahold of their body.

On the contrary, those of our students who train MMA find that Chi Sao is essential to their clinch skills.

[KPM]

Keith, the simplest way to see what a fantasy-based martial art is to look at where the strategies, tactics, tools, etc. come from (or, perhaps more precisely, how they are shown to be used) -- do they come from experience in fighting, in actually doing those things, seeing that they work well, and then training them, teaching them, etc. or do they come from something besides actual experience, like theory, unrealistic drills, etc. The former is reality-based martial art, the latter fantasy-based martial art (fantasy-based arts like to say they come from experience, but you of course never see it).

---So you then would posit that all of the techniques and strategies taught in BJJ and used in tournaments was directly derived from experiences in "real" fighting? I don't think so. And that's what I was pointing out in my original post. A lot of BJJ is just as much "fantasy" martial art as anything else because it is "sport" based.

[Knifefighter]

no myth fool thats a fact, moron. i dare you to come to the south bronx or brooklyn and tell them thats a urban myth i ****ing dare you. watch how fast you go home with buck fifties across you face. people like you end up dead in the street for being so f ucking stupid.

LOL @ being stupid enough to believe people are stupid enough to walk around with razor blades in their mouths.

[KPM]

Forms done in the air, techniques done against a wooden platform, and rolling hands in a manner that cannot be done for real.


---What about Thai boxers "shadowboxing", BJJ or wrestlers practicing the sprawl and other things solo...those are a type of "forms done in the air." What about Thai boxers working the pads or the heavy bag, or grapplers practicing with a grappling dummy....those are a type of "technique done against" something. And I still don't think rolling with a training partner in the gym as any different than doing Chi Sao. That is...if the Chi Sao is done properly. :)

[Knifefighter]

Oh, for all of the naysayers and advocates of their approach being more realistic than others it is interesting that in 1998 the Pekiti Tirsia Organization held a full contact minimum protection stick fighting event. They invited all comers, BJJ and all, to attend and fight. In the end the only ones who showed up were other PT people. Where were all of the "realistic" fighters who tout their own superior training methods??? :confused:

The Dog Brothers host full contact stick fighting matches twice per year- open to all comers. The average turnout is between 30 and 40 fighters.

[Knifefighter]

Forms done in the air, techniques done against a wooden platform, and rolling hands in a manner that cannot be done for real.


---What about Thai boxers "shadowboxing", BJJ or wrestlers practicing the sprawl and other things solo...those are a type of "forms done in the air." What about Thai boxers working the pads or the heavy bag, or grapplers practicing with a grappling dummy....those are a type of "technique done against" something. And I still don't think rolling with a training partner in the gym as any different than doing Chi Sao. That is...if the Chi Sao is done properly. :)

What level of BJJ are you at?


BJJ has discovered that a vast amount of the technique they were teaching for BJJ tournaments simply does not work in an MMA setting, which is closer to "real" fighting.

Please list the vast array of techniques that are used in tourneys that do not work in MMA settings. Then I will list five times that amount that do work.

[Knifefighter]

Forms done in the air, techniques done against a wooden platform, and rolling hands in a manner that cannot be done for real.


---What about Thai boxers "shadowboxing", BJJ or wrestlers practicing the sprawl and other things solo...those are a type of "forms done in the air." What about Thai boxers working the pads or the heavy bag, or grapplers practicing with a grappling dummy....those are a type of "technique done against" something. And I still don't think rolling with a training partner in the gym as any different than doing Chi Sao. That is...if the Chi Sao is done properly. :)

Forms done in the air come directly from the movements done in forms, not from fighting.

Shadow boxing, sprawl training, working the pads, etc- all movements taken from and done just as they are done in fighting.

Big difference.

[sihing]

Dale,

Your the epitome of technique based thinking, that is why you have no idea what WC training is all about.

James

[Knifefighter]

I also find it interesting that Pekiti Tirsia is recognized by the Phillipine Government and taught to the indigenous Marines. It is also interesting that several Wing Chun Artists, Leung Ting, William Cheung to name a few also have programs specifically for training various Law Enforcement and Milatary units.

Military and law enforcement training... pretty much everybody and their WC grandmothers' supposed claim to fame.

The kung fu "master" from this infamous match trained marines, law enforcement and border patrol agents:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpzLlWZIiXo

After the fight, most people said he sucked.

[Knifefighter]

Dale,

Your the epitome of technique based thinking, that is why you have no idea what WC training is all about.

James

This coming from the ultimate theoretical fighter? Give me a break.

[sihing]

This coming from the ultimate theoretical fighter? Give me a break.

Thank you:) Looks like I hit a nerve on that one.

[KPM]

What level of BJJ are you at?

---What level of WCK are you at?


Please list the vast array of techniques that are used in tourneys that do not work in MMA settings. Then I will list five times that amount that do work.

---I'll admit that I'm no expert, but I've seen just about every Pride & UFC event that has been put on DVD. You can count the number of specific submission techniques that show up consistently on 1 hand.....rear naked choke, cross-arm bar, bent-arm bar, kimura....

[KPM]

Forms done in the air come directly from the movements done in forms, not from fighting.

Shadow boxing, sprawl training, working the pads, etc- all movements taken from and done just as they are done in fighting.

Big difference.


---Bong Sao, Ton Sao, straight punch, front kick....all movements taken from and done as they are done in fighting. The concepts of positioning and facing...all taken from and done as they are done in fighting. I think the difference is not as big as you would have us believe. Granted....individual techniques can and should be broken out of the forms and practiced with application in mind to make them more "realistic", but that's still "form done in the air." Just practicing punching is "form done in the air" and is no different than a boxer shadowboxing.

[Knifefighter]

I'll admit that I'm no expert, but I've seen just about every Pride & UFC event that has been put on DVD. You can count the number of specific submission techniques that show up consistently on 1 hand.....rear naked choke, cross-arm bar, bent-arm bar, kimura....

There is far more to BJJ than just submissions. Submissions are just the final products of hunreds of things that have to happen beforehand.

There are probably six or eight things going on at any one time just while someone is in someone else's half guard.

[KPM]

There is far more to BJJ than just submissions. Submissions are just the final products of hunreds of things that have to happen beforehand.

There are probably six or eight things going on at any one time just while someone is in someone else's half guard.

---No doubt that is true. But by the time these guys reach Black Belt level in BJJ I would assume that they have learned more than 5 or 6 submission moves! Why don't they show up in the cage? That has been my point. BJJ has a certain level of "fantasy-fu" to it as well.

[sihing]

There is far more to BJJ than just submissions. Submissions are just the final products of hunreds of things that have to happen beforehand.

There are probably six or eight things going on at any one time just while someone is in someone else's half guard.

LOL@ BJJ is more than just submissions, LOL again @ there are six or eight things going on at any one time while in half guard, this is just an example of "Fantasy Based Thinking", LOL :p

[Knifefighter]

---Bong Sao, Ton Sao, straight punch, front kick....all movements taken from and done as they are done in fighting. The concepts of positioning and facing...all taken from and done as they are done in fighting. I think the difference is not as big as you would have us believe. Granted....individual techniques can and should be broken out of the forms and practiced with application in mind to make them more "realistic", but that's still "form done in the air." Just practicing punching is "form done in the air" and is no different than a boxer shadowboxing.

Jerome Le Banner shadow boxing and fighting... notice the same movement patterns in shadow boxing and fighting.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rtXaKKXBe8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_V92I9PtD4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-26yq9MKL_c


Wing Chun SLT form:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MAFO7dGj3k

Please explain how that is anything like the movement patterns anyone will do in fighting.

[Knifefighter]

LOL@ BJJ is more than just submissions, LOL again @ there are six or eight things going on at any one time while in half guard, this is just an example of "Fantasy Based Thinking", LOL :p

Have you been drinking? What the h3ll does that mean?

[Knifefighter]

---No doubt that is true. But by the time these guys reach Black Belt level in BJJ I would assume that they have learned more than 5 or 6 submission moves! Why don't they show up in the cage? That has been my point. BJJ has a certain level of "fantasy-fu" to it as well.

Please list the submissions that occur in BJJ tourneys (obviously excluding the gi based subs) that do not occur in MMA.

I can list a few for you that ARE pulled off in MMA:
Guillotine
Rear naked choke
Americana
Anaconda
Kimura
Triangle
Googoplata
Triangle/Arm bar combo
Straight arm bar
Umoplata/ankle lock combo
Knee bar
Heel hook
Head and arm choke
Achilles lock
Figure 4 foot lock
North South choke

Hmmm... seems like more than five or six.

Now which were the ones that are done in tourneys that are not done in MMA?

Probably the only two subs that have not been pulled off yet are the Darce and the Von Flu... and that is probably just because they are not that well known yet.

[sihing]

Have you been drinking? What the h3ll does that mean?

No more than normal bro:) Just trying to have a little fun with you, I guess it went over your head.

Basically, IMO most of us WC practitioners speak a different language than you, that is why you don't understand most of what we are discussing here. Unfortunately, most people that post things on youtube concerning WC, post those things that are what I consider very basic training methods. SLT, in essence is not really about fighting, rather it is about reconditioning the individual practicing it. To use the WC method, certain body mechanics and structures must be learned by the practitioner, SLT is the first step in this process, and is not meant to be represented as anything other than that. SLT teaches us to become stable in a stance and comfortable in a stance as well as basic arm shapes while standing still so that we can later on, in Chum Kiu form, do the samethings while in motion, which is how stand up fighting is done. No one is going to stand still for you, while you beat their head in, so we have to learn how to be mobile while simultaneously being stable so the power of our strikes is going into our opponents more so than back into ourselves (for every force there is a equal counter force, bla bla bla). This is just some of what we learn in forms practice, all of which is then reinforced and learned to a higher degree in laap sau, chi sau drills and sparring after that, as ultimately you have to learn how to enter and secure your position to be able to fight someone standing up before contact is made.

The best way to learn about this stuff (if your interested, if your not, then why do you hang around a forum like this???), is to experience it for yourself. Sifu Gary is right there in LA, and has a open atmosphere for visitors to his school, Boztepe is pretty open as well from what I have been told. Go visit one of these guys to see what's up, as there is little you can learn from reading posts on forums as compared to actual experience in something:)

James

[Knifefighter]

SLT, in essence is not really about fighting, rather it is about reconditioning the individual practicing it. To use the WC method, certain body mechanics and structures must be learned by the practitioner, SLT is the first step in this process, and is not meant to be represented as anything other than that. SLT teaches us to become stable in a stance and comfortable in a stance as well as basic arm shapes while standing still so that we can later on, in Chum Kiu form, do the samethings while in motion, which is how stand up fighting is done.

Don't you find it strange that none of the functionally based activities, from soccer to wrestling to tennis to basketball to running to lacross to baseball to skiing to biking to boxing, has it's practitioners begin learning movements and "reconditioning" with movements that look nothing like the movement patterns that will be done when performed live?

[Sihing73]

Military and law enforcement training... pretty much everybody and their WC grandmothers' supposed claim to fame.

The kung fu "master" from this infamous match trained marines, law enforcement and border patrol agents:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpzLlWZIiXo

After the fight, most people said he sucked.

Was he recognized by the government where the art originated? Did he actually teach and have a "governmentally" approved and recognized training program. See a lot of people have taught or hosted seminars for various groups, but how many are actually a bonafide recognized training source? I find it interesting that the Phillipino Government, which is still engaged in actual fighting with rebel groups, has chosen Pekiti Tirsia as its method for training its elite soldiers. But, hey when someone like you says its fantasy everyone else must be wrong. After all look at all of the people and groups you've trained ;)

[Knifefighter]

Was he recognized by the government where the art originated? Did he actually teach and have a "governmentally" approved and recognized training program. See a lot of people have taught or hosted seminars for various groups, but how many are actually a bonafide recognized training source? I find it interesting that the Phillipino Government, which is still engaged in actual fighting with rebel groups, has chosen Pekiti Tirsia as its method for training its elite soldiers. But, hey when someone like you says its fantasy everyone else must be wrong. After all look at all of the people and groups you've trained ;)

Of course the Filipino govt is going to chose one of it's native arts for its hand to hand combat training. That's pretty much a no-brainer there, especially since hand to hand combat is pretty low on the totem pole for military training, what with the invention of firearms and everything. Doesn't prove either its effectiveness or lack thereof one way or the other.

[sihing]

Don't you find it strange that none of the functionally based activities, from soccer to wrestling to tennis to basketball to running to lacross to baseball to skiing to biking to boxing, has it's practitioners begin learning movements and "reconditioning" with movements that look nothing like the movement patterns that will be done when performed live?

No, not really because the eastern world has a different way of thinking than the western way, you can see this in their religions, customs, medicine and in their training and application of fighting arts, and if it didn't work at all, we wouldn't have it available to us today. Concerning forms, all of them are basics if you ask me, and once you have learned what they are meant to teach you, you don't really have to practice them again, or if you do you concentrate on other aspects. Chi sau is just a way of taking static WC shapes and putting them into action in a very specific way (more alive training), after that you have to learn the concepts & principles of how to apply them to actual situations, this is all a process but some get stuck along the way. If I have a choice of practicing with a partner or forms work, I would always choose to practice with a partner, as this is way more benifical and alive. The thing is, with WC, you have to have the structure and mechanics built into your system first, this is a slow process for most, and when some finally get some of it, they get stuck there thinking it's the cat's meow, when in fact it is just the beginning of the development.

When I was playing competative tennis, I used to shadow swing and visualize myself playing all the time, I know it helped. But in reality, for me anyways, you can't compare sports to fighting or WC, because in fighting (especially WC) our goal is to at a certain level, control another person's actions, rather than a ball, puck, or non resisting entity, there's a difference. IMO this is much harder to do while stand up fighting, as compared to ground fighting where you have already taken the guys mobility away from him and can use the ground/gravity/weight/leverage to a much higher degree as a tool to defeat them.

James

[JPinAZ]

Ronin already told you that. You adapt it by using the same tools as MT, boxing, and wrestling do for the standup portion.

And I thought I already adress his post... why not read the thread... :rolleyes:

[JPinAZ]

Here are a few good ones to start with:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEmRI9wjA_M&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3Ij8Ns1xSc&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-232DNU8_TI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GiQRlr5NCwk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykD5Z8heVUs

Haha, too funny how you keep running to your GF T's rescue. Relax, take of the T's Super Hero cape and let T answer some of his own questions... if he can. Unless you are his newly appointed spokesman for when his mouth gets him in trouble? ;)

BTW, I noticed he 'missed' this one...
For T, regarding all the fantasy MA's you've spotted:
"ok, list the one's you've spotted
And nothing general, get right down to the point and give solid examples. List practitioners, lineages, etc if you'd like. Be specific as possible so we know where you're coming from. Typical answers like "all fantasy-based WC, or aikido, etc" don't count."

[KPM]

Please list the submissions that occur in BJJ tourneys (obviously excluding the gi based subs) that do not occur in MMA.

---And why would you exclude the "gi based" submissions? Is it perhaps because there is an element of your "fantasy-fu" there?

I can list a few for you that ARE pulled off in MMA:

---I would despute your list. All of these may appear on occasion, but not all of them show up consistently. And wouldn't a Black Belt in BJJ still know far more submissions than are on your list?

Don't you find it strange that none of the functionally based activities, from soccer to wrestling to tennis to basketball to running to lacross to baseball to skiing to biking to boxing, has it's practitioners begin learning movements and "reconditioning" with movements that look nothing like the movement patterns that will be done when performed live?

---Do they run? Do they lift weights? Do they do other cross-training in the gym? These things rarely look exactly like the movements patterns of their sport either. Yet they do them for conditioning.

---Don't get me wrong Dale. I do think you and Terrence make a good basic point. But you try and take it too far. WCK certainly has room to update its training methods and approach and should strive to be as "realistic" as possible. But you would have us "throw the baby out with the bathwater"....to quote an old phrase. Rather than saying "you guys suck", you'd serve the forum better by offering ways in which to make WCK itself more of a "functional" or "reality" based system that you seem to think BJJ is. I happen to think that of all the TCMAs out there, WCK comes the closest to your ideal. So why not help it become even closer? Or are you here strictly because you enjoy telling people they suck?

[t_niehoff]

Don't you find it strange that none of the functionally based activities, from soccer to wrestling to tennis to basketball to running to lacross to baseball to skiing to biking to boxing, has it's practitioners begin learning movements and "reconditioning" with movements that look nothing like the movement patterns that will be done when performed live?

Exactly. This is because the process by which we humans learn and develop functional open skill activites is the same. Once you grasp that -- this is how everyone needs to learn/train to learn and develop to attain much in the way of skill-- you will realize that if you aren't using that process, your learning/training won't be very productive.

James responded with:



No, not really because the eastern world has a different way of thinking than the western way, you can see this in their religions, customs, medicine and in their training and application of fighting arts, and if it didn't work at all, we wouldn't have it available to us today


That's right, they do have a different approach to learning/training MAs, one that isn't very good for teaching/learning/developing significant levels of skill. It may have been the best they knew at the time, but we know more today, we have hundreds of years of experience (with athletic activities, sports, etc.) and scientific research to prove it. That way of training produces some lower level development which is perhaps better than nothing at all -- but that doesn't mean it is very good. The proof is in the results, both with the modern training method (which all good fighters use) and the tradtitional method (which has failed to produce any significant results).

[t_niehoff]

BTW, I noticed he 'missed' this one...
For T, regarding all the fantasy MA's you've spotted:
"ok, list the one's you've spotted
And nothing general, get right down to the point and give solid examples. List practitioners, lineages, etc if you'd like. Be specific as possible so we know where you're coming from. Typical answers like "all fantasy-based WC, or aikido, etc" don't count."

I'm not going to make a list of people -- this isn't personal. It is about learning/training methods. I have explained what fantasy-based MAs are (and I think it's clear why the tradtitional training methods support it). If you want to know if so-and-so's MA is fantasy-based, just apply what I've described to them. If you are not doing in fighting the same things you do in training as you do them in training, your learning/training is fantasy-based. If you are not starting with the fight, taking those things you can really do in fighting and that you know that from experience fighitng, and teach/practice those things, what you are doing is fantasy based.

[t_niehoff]

---Bong Sao, Ton Sao, straight punch, front kick....all movements taken from and done as they are done in fighting. The concepts of positioning and facing...all taken from and done as they are done in fighting. I think the difference is not as big as you would have us believe. Granted....individual techniques can and should be broken out of the forms and practiced with application in mind to make them more "realistic", but that's still "form done in the air." Just practicing punching is "form done in the air" and is no different than a boxer shadowboxing.

Do you learn to use the tan, bong, fook, pak, punch, etc. -- the tools of WCK -- as you will really use them in fighting? If so, then you should be able to demonstrate (1) this is how we train to do things and (2) here I am fighting and I'm doing those things just as how I train (practice) to do them. In other words, what I train to do corresponds to what I really do. Because isn't that really the test for good, effective training? Who thinks it is good training to practice doing one thing and then do another when you actually fight?

My point is that if 1 and 2 don't correspond, then 1 is fantasy -- it's not what will happen when you fight, it's what someone (who doesn't know better) believes will happen when you fight. That belief is a fantasy.

How can someone know what they can really do ini fighting? You can't through some theoretical, conceptual, intellectual, etc. construct -- through a beleif structure. You can only know via experience fighting. From seeing that yes, indeed, I can (or someone can) do that or that I can't do that. That is when it becomes a reality-based MA.

[MisterNoobie]

There is one huge difference in what you are doing with a functional arts such as BJJ. The system is set up so that, although you might suck at it now, all you have to do is keep training at it and soon you will be able to proficiently use those tools against full-on resisting opponents.

Knifefighter, I agree with you here. However, i think the same can be said for wing chun too. If i were of a blue belt level in BJJ, I still would not want to fight a good wing chun guy. I've seen how the hardcore guys train and frankly they look down right scary sometimes.

So if i get my blue belt in bjj and get beat up by a wing chun guy (which isnt a far stretch imo) is wing chun more functional than bjj? Does the grappling without strikes then become 'fantasy?'

[t_niehoff]

Was he recognized by the government where the art originated? Did he actually teach and have a "governmentally" approved and recognized training program. See a lot of people have taught or hosted seminars for various groups, but how many are actually a bonafide recognized training source? I find it interesting that the Phillipino Government, which is still engaged in actual fighting with rebel groups, has chosen Pekiti Tirsia as its method for training its elite soldiers. But, hey when someone like you says its fantasy everyone else must be wrong. After all look at all of the people and groups you've trained ;)

Looking to others, including governmental authorities, to tells us what is or is not good training, who is qualified, etc. is just more reliance on appeals to authority. All we have to do is see if X can do those things in fighting as he learns/practices to do them in training. Simple. We can tell for ourselves -- we don't need anyone or any authority to explain it us or to use some sort of rationalizations (would the Gov't do it if it was fantasy?). If they can do in fighting those things they train to do as they train to do them, we will be able to see it for ourselves.

If you go to a BJJ gym, MT gym, boxing gym, etc. that's precisely what you will see. You'll see them teaching here's how to pass the guard, they will practice it (train), and then do it in sparring, just as they've learned it, just as they trained it. You can see this for yourself. The learning/training/fighting corespond 1-to-1-to-1.

With regard to pekiti, just ask a "good" pekiti guy to stick fight (like at the Dog Bros. gathering, for example) and see if they can do those things they train to do in fighting as they train to do them. Or, you can look at the two top guys pekiti produced, Tom Bisio and Eric Knauss (original Dog Bro.), and see how they fought/fight and just compare to how they were trained.

[MisterNoobie]

It's not circular. A martial art that is reality-based uses experience actually fighting as the basis for which to train, etc. It starts with the fight and sees what things actually work (either via experiement, trial-and-error, whatever) and retains thos things that prove useful. That's why they evolve. Fantasy-based MAs don't do that. They being with a fantasy, an idea, a "concept" (the fantasy) of how fighting should work. And they don't take the next step.


How do u know which art falls into which category?



Contrast that, for example, with those WCK people who teach that the biu jee is a finger jab attack, and show pictures, etc. of themselves striking with their fingers. Pure fantasy.


You think its impossible for a wing chun guy to attack me with there fingers? It may not work on Rampage, but that doesnt help me out at all if i'm mixing it up with a wing chun guy.



You don't understand what it means for a skill to be realistic. It is realistic because we can look at genuine fights and see that these things actually work as they are practiced.


Ok so if i go over to the local wing chun school and try my crappy grappling attacks on him as they perform wing chun techniques (which i'm sure they could) and get that on tape.. does wing chun all of a suddenly become functional? Or does this not qualify as a 'geniune' fight because I'm not an uber athlete. If not, then how good would my skill level have to be to qualify as 'geniune'?

[Knifefighter]

---And why would you exclude the "gi based" submissions? Is it perhaps because there is an element of your "fantasy-fu" there?

You exclude the gi based techniques because people only wear shorts in MMA.

If anything, the use of the gi shows how "non-fantasy" BJJ is, considering that in real life people wear clothes and will more than likely be grabbing your clothes when you fight. All of the gi based subissions work the same with clothes as they do with the gi.


---I would despute your list. All of these may appear on occasion, but not all of them show up consistently.

The ones that show up most consistently are the same ones that show up most consistenly in tourneys.


And wouldn't a Black Belt in BJJ still know far more submissions than are on your list?

Nope... that's pretty much it, because those are the ones that work.



---Do they run? Do they lift weights? Do they do other cross-training in the gym? These things rarely look exactly like the movements patterns of their sport either. Yet they do them for conditioning.

As a strength and conditioning specialist, I can tell you that when athletic conditioning programs are designed for athletes, we attempt to design them around the movements of the activity the athlete is involved in.


---Don't get me wrong Dale. I do think you and Terrence make a good basic point. But you try and take it too far. WCK certainly has room to update its training methods and approach and should strive to be as "realistic" as possible. But you would have us "throw the baby out with the bathwater"....to quote an old phrase. Rather than saying "you guys suck", you'd serve the forum better by offering ways in which to make WCK itself more of a "functional" or "reality" based system that you seem to think BJJ is. I happen to think that of all the TCMAs out there, WCK comes the closest to your ideal. So why not help it become even closer? Or are you here strictly because you enjoy telling people they suck?

I've already done that (i.e. get rid of the forms and wooden dummy, turn chi sao into more of a sparring and clinch work type of thing, and add elements of other arts), but it falls on deaf ears.

[k gledhill]

I eye jabbed a guy in a bar fight once, then ko'd his friend with the same right as I turned and faced him... 2 v me :D skinny old me.... eye jabs sting they dont finish, like accidental eye jabs in sparring , you can carry on but at 75 % ..if the following attack doesnt come you can recover ...but if it does :o....

Bil gee teaches to hit and face while pivoting to strike with the same extended arm , retracting it to rechamber as it fires again....functional used it in a real fight .

I used the finger jab because there were 2 guys coming and I couldnt commit to either so tried to do a ' f&ck off ' move to the guy on the right , we moved along a narrow channel created by the bar tables. I couldnt maneuver anywhere so had to take what they gave me ....my ring so to speak . couldt run I was the bar security ;)...

terence police reports can verify this , only they told me to say things like I was attacked , so i threw my arms out to defend myself and the guy's fell over : ) NOT that I do martial arts ...that we hide from everyone.

[sihing]

Exactly. This is because the process by which we humans learn and develop functional open skill activites is the same. Once you grasp that -- this is how everyone needs to learn/train to learn and develop to attain much in the way of skill-- you will realize that if you aren't using that process, your learning/training won't be very productive.

James responded with:



That's right, they do have a different approach to learning/training MAs, one that isn't very good for teaching/learning/developing significant levels of skill. It may have been the best they knew at the time, but we know more today, we have hundreds of years of experience (with athletic activities, sports, etc.) and scientific research to prove it. That way of training produces some lower level development which is perhaps better than nothing at all -- but that doesn't mean it is very good. The proof is in the results, both with the modern training method (which all good fighters use) and the tradtitional method (which has failed to produce any significant results).

You have a good point here, and the key now is to have a mixure of both approaches. When I watch most of the MMA fights from UFC, except for a few exceptional strikers like Liddel, Jackson, GSP, BJ Penn, most of them could use a few good training sessions on proper hitting structure and mechanics. To me most of them are just trying to get that lucky shot in and are more than willing (due to there awesome conditioning and will) to take some shots on the way in. Rarely do I see these fighters set up a combination and follow through with it, as compared to good boxers, who do this all the time and don't get hit as much.

Like I said, for WC anyways, you have to have the structure built into you, before you can progress in the training, this is first learned with the traditional way of forms and then through the various drills we have in our system. Believe it or not, there is more to WC than Chi sau and drills, and things we can do after that to make our skills more functional, but for some reason people get stuck in the process and just love to show themselves on Utube engaged in their stagnation in that process. I guess everyone likes to have their 15 min of fame:)

James

[Knifefighter]

Knifefighter, I agree with you here. However, i think the same can be said for wing chun too. If i were of a blue belt level in BJJ, I still would not want to fight a good wing chun guy. I've seen how the hardcore guys train and frankly they look down right scary sometimes.

So if i get my blue belt in bjj and get beat up by a wing chun guy (which isnt a far stretch imo) is wing chun more functional than bjj? Does the grappling without strikes then become 'fantasy?'


You mean like this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GPDpd0Jxf8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKgu9Duw0Wk

[k gledhill]

most get stck in the process, never shown the goal because they dont know it, beyond application fighting that doesnt work.

[sihing]

most get stck in the process, never shown the goal because they dont know it, beyond application fighting that doesnt work.

True, I was stuck there for 17yrs :)

J

[sihing]

You mean like this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GPDpd0Jxf8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKgu9Duw0Wk

Well after watching that first vid, I've come to the conclusion that it is time for me to move on from Wing Chun and try something else, since the video showed inconclusively that WC doesn't work:)

Thanks guys, it was nice while it lasted ;)

James

[k gledhill]

Me too time is no guarantee ...25-30 years doesnt mean anything...
I know :D...

[Knifefighter]

Well after watching that first vid, I've come to the conclusion that it is time for me to move on from Wing Chun and try something else, since the video showed inconclusively that WC doesn't work:)

Thanks guys, it was nice while it lasted ;)

James

Hey, you already wasted 17 years. Why not waste another 17 more?

[duende]

Do you learn to use the tan, bong, fook, pak, punch, etc. -- the tools of WCK -- as you will really use them in fighting? If so, then you should be able to demonstrate (1) this is how we train to do things and (2) here I am fighting and I'm doing those things just as how I train (practice) to do them. In other words, what I train to do corresponds to what I really do. Because isn't that really the test for good, effective training? Who thinks it is good training to practice doing one thing and then do another when you actually fight?

My point is that if 1 and 2 don't correspond, then 1 is fantasy -- it's not what will happen when you fight, it's what someone (who doesn't know better) believes will happen when you fight. That belief is a fantasy.

How can someone know what they can really do ini fighting? You can't through some theoretical, conceptual, intellectual, etc. construct -- through a beleif structure. You can only know via experience fighting. From seeing that yes, indeed, I can (or someone can) do that or that I can't do that. That is when it becomes a reality-based MA.

:confused:

This is by in large a changing of your statement. First it was that the tools/drilling methods of WCK won't work and are fantasy based. Now your saying it's how you train them must have realistic challenges, such as full-resistance fighting/sparring among others.

This is a more constructive statement, and is no longer in conflict with what many of us have been saying on this thread all along.

It is with precisely this in mind, why I said earlier that the WC clip you referenced will not work. Even in a perfect world scenario.

BUT.... it still could be an example of just one point in time in a learning progression... or a training drill just to help a beginner student get their own body to understand the basic shapes and movements.

There is so much learning to be had just on personal awareness and development of basic tools alone that to incorporate full-resistance training from the get go, is too much for a beginner student to absorb at once. It's like asking them to swallow a gallon of tea at once... they're going to spit some back up.

Because, if the student can't even do a pak so with correct hand structure, leverage control, proper range... all the details of a strong bridge... how are they ever going to be able to face full-on resitance and skill challenges? The answer is they won't..

Against even a single strike alone (heaven forbid a combination), they will get bounced off, crashed, get taken to the ground, forfeit their mobility... etc... etc...

The key is proper guidence during the development of tools with greater and greater doses of resistance and varying methods of engagements (randomness) being thrown in along the way. Until full freeform drilling/fightin/sparring.... what we refer to as san da... can be had.

[sihing]

Hey, you already wasted 17 years. Why not waste another 17 more?

Hahahaha, your a funny man Dale:cool:

[k gledhill]

And we all know Dale doesnt have a clue anyway ;) but he's the forum joker so..fire away dude.

[sihing]

And we all know Dale doesnt have a clue anyway ;) but he's the forum joker so..fire away dude.

When I look at who made the statement, and reflect on what he really knows about me, my abilities and skills, and what he knows about WC, it makes me take his statement very lightly and not with much credibility. It makes me laugh really, because it was just a form of attack with bit of arrogance/ignorance added in.

James

[JPinAZ]

I eye jabbed a guy in a bar fight once, then ko'd his friend with the same right as I turned and faced him... 2 v me :D skinny old me.... eye jabs sting they dont finish, like accidental eye jabs in sparring , you can carry on but at 75 % ..if the following attack doesnt come you can recover ...but if it does :o....

Bil gee teaches to hit and face while pivoting to strike with the same extended arm , retracting it to rechamber as it fires again....functional used it in a real fight .

I used the finger jab because there were 2 guys coming and I couldnt commit to either so tried to do a ' f&ck off ' move to the guy on the right , we moved along a narrow channel created by the bar tables. I couldnt maneuver anywhere so had to take what they gave me ....my ring so to speak . couldt run I was the bar security ;)...

terence police reports can verify this , only they told me to say things like I was attacked , so i threw my arms out to defend myself and the guy's fell over : ) NOT that I do martial arts ...that we hide from everyone.

Great point - If we want to take the advice of the two Anti-Wc guys here (and you know who you are) and look to people with 'proven results' (who ever that is...) we could look at UFC and the way chuck lidell won 3 consecutive fights - eye pokes. Whether intentional or not is besides the point, I think that Randy C and Tito O will both agree that once they recieved a good thumb or finger to the eye, the fight was pretty much over for them..

but yeah, that's all fantasy and nonsense.. :rolleyes:

[Liddel]

That's right, they do have a different approach to learning/training MAs, one that isn't very good for teaching/learning/developing significant levels of skill.

True to a point, the "general" training methology wont develop significant levels of skill.

IMO it can develop good levels of skill, especially for every day self defence and against other hobby martial artists with the same experience levels.

If your looking to compete at the top levels though, you must adapt or seriously complement your training with a more modern approach... sure.

Im not worthy of UFC but i certainly punch above my weight though. :o

:cool:
DREW

[sihing]

True to a point, the "general" training methology wont develop significant levels of skill.

IMO it can develop good levels of skill, especially for every day self defence and against other hobby martial artists with the same experience levels.

If your looking to compete at the top levels though, you must adapt or seriously complement your training with a more modern approach... sure.

Im not worthy of UFC but i certainly punch above my weight though. :o

:cool:
DREW

Yeah, but Drew, you have to realize that to Terence, MMA "COMPETITIONS" and training practices, are the only thing that is real. If it doesn't fit into that box, he doesn't recognize it as signifigant skill. The funniest thing is that T has said over and over again that everyone is born with an instinct to fight, but not to a signifigant level. Like any of us are ever going to meet a Liddel or Otiz in the street, lol. It's all a bunch of fuzzy logic to support an emotional point of view because of a bad experience he had years ago. What people will do to satisfy the ego:)

James

[Liddel]

Military and law enforcement training... pretty much everybody and their WC grandmothers' supposed claim to fame.

The kung fu "master" from this infamous match trained marines, law enforcement and border patrol agents:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpzLlWZIiXo

After the fight, most people said he sucked.

Not that i personally think this guy had skill - thats evident - but im not one to jump to the excuse that it was his training alone that was to blame. :rolleyes:

Were you not the first one to state, after the vid posted of you and Rashan (sp?), that he was BIGGER and younger which is a fair comment to a point, even though you obviously have mucho experience.

But when one looks at that vid you dont afford this guy the same type of scrutiny, no mention of the difference in experience and SIZE - just that hes a prime example of the Traditional training methology which sucks....LOL

Moreover, were judging HIS skill (and therefore the Traditional Training Methology) based on one fight ?

IMO for a solid argument you need to look at the two with the same eyes without the obvious bias Dale. :rolleyes:

I doesnt change the argument, but perhaps the potency ?

DREW

[Liddel]

It's all a bunch of fuzzy logic to support an emotional point of view because of a bad experience he had years ago. What people will do to satisfy the ego:)
James

:)

Im not heavily religious -
But IME "Born again's" tend to be way more devout than those that always were religious.....

They have a lot of time to make up for...

I find this crosses over to many other things in life...

:o
DREW

[Knifefighter]

Were you not the first one to state, after the vid posted of you and Rashan (sp?), that he was BIGGER and younger which is a fair comment to a point, even though you obviously have mucho experience.

And it didn't stop me from taking him down several times, did it?


But when one looks at that vid you dont afford this guy the same type of scrutiny, no mention of the difference in experience and SIZE - just that hes a prime example of the Traditional training methology which sucks....LOL

Drew-

Maybe you missed the context of my posting that particular clip. It wasn't to point out that the guy was good or bad. It was to show that training law enforcement and military guys has nothing to do with whether or not you know what you are doing.

[Knifefighter]

And we all know Dale doesnt have a clue anyway ;) but he's the forum joker so..fire away dude.

Umm... read the first post of this thread. It is about BJJ being a fantasy based MA. A thread started buy a guy whose entire experience with BJJ is watching it on TV.

Additionally, how many people who have posted on thise thread have actually trained in BJJ?

Now who is clueless?

Not to mention the fact that I probably have five times the real world experience that you do and I can't remember those altercations in the detail you seem to be able to. Funny how when I talk to others whom I know for a fact have also had many real world altercations, they don't seem to recall all those fine little details either.

[Liddel]

And it didn't stop me from taking him down several times, did it?

No your right, and i see it for what it was, just a friendly exchange....:)



Drew-
Maybe you missed the context of my posting that particular clip. It wasn't to point out that the guy was good or bad. It was to show that training law enforcement and military guys has nothing to do with whether or not you know what you are doing.

Yeah well that beguile's me..... nothing like teaching cops the old 'fighting with hands down' approach :eek:

DREW

[Liddel]

Funny how when I talk to others whom I know for a fact have also had many real world altercations, they don't seem to recall all those fine little details either.

Bro, my buddy whos been a cop for a decade here in NZ has an uncanny ability to remember every encounter hes had !
..... and the one that really stuffs me when were laying money on UFC....

He remembers every fight he's seen and how it ended....
No 5hit, if i didnt have good will power when betting with him - id be broke :D

DREW

[Knifefighter]

Yeah well that beguile's me..... nothing like teaching cops the old 'fighting with hands down' approach :eek:

DREW

Their philosophy was that in the real world, if you are attacked, you will not have your hands up, which is true. It can be especially true for law enforcement personnel, who often have to reach into their utility belts, or are in the process of writing a citation when a suspect becomes agressive. Since theirs was supposed to be a real-world, CQB system, they attempted to mimic what was supposed to happen when attacked. Hence, the hands down approach.

Their approach was a perfect example of the fantasy based theoretical approach to fighting. The problem is, they forgot that you have to actaully practice fighting from this position against real, live resisting opponents.

[anerlich]

There used to be a vid available on youtube called "Rare submissions of MMA", which would have lengthened Dale's list considerably. I was going to post the link but uUnfortunately it's been removed due to Pride's copyright.

You don't see a huge number of submissions in MMA, because some are higher percentage than others. Many are only available in a particular small set of circumstances or require longer periods of specialised training to pull off., than do the bread and butter ones.

You probably see much less variety in KO techniques in striking. That said, you see the occasional KO from a spinning hook kick to the head (there was one in TKD at the Athens Olympics, and not a TKO either - the recipient was on the deck out cold). An aquaintance even successfully used a jumping splits kick to hit two guys in a brawl once. The situation just presented itself, though it might never do so again in his lifetime.

Most of my instructors in various arts have encouraged to develop first a reasonably small range of basic techniques to gain a foundation in the art, then encouraged me to find a small number of techniques that work for me that I can use all the time if I am under threat.

If my only concern was self protection against the ever present potential threat of an attack, that's probably all I need to learn. Most MA people expand on that because to live that way is pretty sad, and very boring. and arguably fantasy, that of living in an action movie, albeit one with very little action for most of us. Arts, whether you describe them s functional or not, have much more to them than this.

Even Geoff Thompson and his fellow bouncers had simple one or two shot combos they used all the time. But most of them also studied and continued to study multiple MA's at a deep level.

Now as another thread gets turned into the same tired debate that most of them do...

[sihing]

Their philosophy was that in the real world, if you are attacked, you will not have your hands up, which is true. It can be especially true for law enforcement personnel, who often have to reach into their utility belts, or are in the process of writing a citation when a suspect becomes agressive. Since theirs was supposed to be a real-world, CQB system, they attempted to mimic what was supposed to happen when attacked. Hence, the hands down approach.

Their approach was a perfect example of the fantasy based theoretical approach to fighting. The problem is, they forgot that you have to actaully practice fighting from this position against real, live resisting opponents.

I think Dale has added a word to his Wing Chun forum Vocabulary, "Fantasy Based Theoretical Fighting", with the occasional addition of the word "approach" between the words theoretcial and fighting. I'm happy for you dude:)

[Knifefighter]

I think Dale has added a word to his Wing Chun forum Vocabulary, "Fantasy Based Theoretical Fighting", with the occasional addition of the word "approach" between the words theoretcial and fighting. I'm happy for you dude:)

That would be a phrase, not a word... a good, descriptive phrase.

[Liddel]

Their philosophy was that in the real world, if you are attacked, you will not have your hands up, which is true. It can be especially true for law enforcement personnel, who often have to reach into their utility belts, or are in the process of writing a citation when a suspect becomes agressive. Since theirs was supposed to be a real-world, CQB system, they attempted to mimic what was supposed to happen when attacked. Hence, the hands down approach.

Yeah no i get that, having a few friends on the job...

From a theoretical fighters POV :p thats a case of the style using you not you using the style...in the vid he seemed well aware the fight was on but hands are still down.

Perhaps he trained like that too much ;) :)

[sihing]

That would be a phrase, not a word... a good, descriptive phrase.

You've used Theoretical fighting/er before, so you've added two new words to your vocabulary here, Fantasy Based:). I'm sure you will inter mix the terms on a regular basis while you continue to post here, on a specific Martial Arts forum, that you don't practice:eek:

J

[Knifefighter]

You've used Theoretical fighting/er before, so you've added two new words to your vocabulary here, Fantasy Based:). I'm sure you will inter mix the terms on a regular basis while you continue to post here, on a specific Martial Arts forum, that you don't practice:eek:

J

Yes I will find an endless use for my new words. It will be fun stating things such as, "James is a Theoretically Based Fantasy Fighther", when I explain the specifics of a style in which I am a Reality Based Black Belt that others who have never trained in that style make clueless, uninformed comments about.

[sihing]

Yes I will find an endless use for my new words. It will be fun stating things such as, "James is a Theoretically Based Fantasy Fighther", when I explain the specifics of a style in which I am a Reality Based Black Belt that others who have never trained in that style make clueless, uninformed comments about.

It's amazing isn't it, what we can do when we rediscover the various uses of our vast array of words and phrases in the english language, it makes me happy that you will have fun in that endeavour:)

James

[Phil Redmond]

Now I'm not saying that BJJ is fantasy based but, A friend of mine took this clip with a digital camera in Hawaii.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVZ48fPSjoQ
It is of a "demo" of Gracie jiujitsu. I thought only TCMA did unrealistic demos. You can tell it's a demo because the tap outs are in rotation. One guys taps out, then the other guys taps out and so on. So if BBJ can do "demos" and they are the best, invincible, and most realistic why can't WC ? ;)

[YungChun]

So if BBJ can do "demos" and they are the best, invincible, and most realistic why can't WC ? ;)

We can and do quite often.. LOL

The problem is that the demos look too much like the training in many cases, and in many cases both the demos and the training ain't so hot.. Er alive..

If more folks were fighting and doing well in sport venues and showing decent WCK then I don't think you'd hear many complaints about the demos.

[KPM]

If anything, the use of the gi shows how "non-fantasy" BJJ is, considering that in real life people wear clothes and will more than likely be grabbing your clothes when you fight. All of the gi based subissions work the same with clothes as they do with the gi.

---Well, I live in the southwest, where 9 months out of the year people walk around in T shirts or other light shirts. You don't see anyone wearing anything that resembles a Gi...until winter time when they start to put on jackets. None of the lapel chokes, sleeve chokes, or grabbing onto the sleeves for control is going to work on someone that lives in that environment for the majority of the time. I can't imagine that it is much different in Brazil. So I don't agree with your point. I think training with a heavy canvas Gi is not very realistic....and I think there is an aspect of "fantasy-fu" here.


As a strength and conditioning specialist, I can tell you that when athletic conditioning programs are designed for athletes, we attempt to design them around the movements of the activity the athlete is involved in.

---I don't dispute that at all. But athletes still hit the weights. They still run or skip rope for cardo. Maybe you are overlooking the fact that there is a conditioning element in WCK that may not match real application exactly, but that
is beneficial none-the-less...just as these other things that don't match the sport application exactly can be beneficial.

I've already done that (i.e. get rid of the forms and wooden dummy, turn chi sao into more of a sparring and clinch work type of thing, and add elements of other arts), but it falls on deaf ears.

---Then perhaps it is your method of delivery?

[Knifefighter]

Now I'm not saying that BJJ is fantasy based but, A friend of mine took this clip with a digital camera in Hawaii.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVZ48fPSjoQ
It is of a "demo" of Gracie jiujitsu. I thought only TCMA did unrealistic demos. You can tell it's a demo because the tap outs are in rotation. One guys taps out, then the other guys taps out and so on. So if BBJ can do "demos" and they are the best, invincible, and most realistic why can't WC ? ;)

Phil-
With the exception of the arm bar from the knee ride in the beginning and the two neck cranks close to the end, all the techniques shown are regularly pulled off in competitions just the way they were shown.

The techniques done in demos should be able to be pulled off just as they are shown against other skilled opponents.

[Knifefighter]

---Well, I live in the southwest, where 9 months out of the year people walk around in T shirts or other light shirts. You don't see anyone wearing anything that resembles a Gi...until winter time when they start to put on jackets. None of the lapel chokes, sleeve chokes, or grabbing onto the sleeves for control is going to work on someone that lives in that environment for the majority of the time.

I regularly train with T-shirts and shorts. Most gi techniques can be applied and/or modified to this. Sleeve control can be done with short sleeves and collar chokes are very nasty with T-shirts. There are ways to grip to turn the opponent's T-shirt collar into a rope that digs into the neck and leaves a nasty looking welt if you don't tap fast. T-shirts are probably even more verstile than a gi because you can use your own shirt for many different rope-type chokes.


Maybe you are overlooking the fact that there is a conditioning element in WCK that may not match real application exactly, but that
is beneficial none-the-less...just as these other things that don't match the sport application exactly can be beneficial.


LOL @ WC having much of a conditioning element. The fact that it doesn't is one of its big problems.

[KPM]

Umm... read the first post of this thread. It is about BJJ being a fantasy based MA.

---Yes please do! That is not an entirely accurate statement. I never said BJJ was a fantasy-based MA. I said it had some elements of the "fantasy fu" in it the same as most martial arts. Here was the main point:

But BJJ is just as guilty as WCK of developing and teaching technique that is not based on "real" fighting. Rolling with a partner in the gym or in a tournament is not "real" fighting, just like Chi Sao and sparring are not "real" fighting. BJJ is a good example of what a progressive and modern martial art should look like. But let's not give them TOO much credit! Labeling one method as "reality" and the other as "fantasy" is not very useful. Lets just get to training and do our best to progress and evolve.


A thread started buy a guy whose entire experience with BJJ is watching it on TV.

---Now you are jumping to conclusions. Why do you have to take an antagonistic attitude when people are just trying to have a reasonable discussion? That's why these kind of threads end up going down the drain. I have trained the basics of BJJ in the past. But I didn't have the opportunity to go beyond a basic beginner's level. I may try and correct that in the future. Or I may seek out some training in Catch/submission Wrestling, because I have no desire to learn lots of technique while wearing a Gi.

[KPM]

;)I regularly train with T-shirts and shorts. Most gi techniques can be applied and/or mosdified to this. Sleeve control can be done with short sleeves and collar chokes are very nasty with T-shirts. There are ways to grip to turn the opponent's T-shirt collar into a rope that digs into the neck and leaves a nasty looking welt if you don't tap fast. T-shirts are probably even more verstile than a gi because you can use your own shirt for many different rope-type chokes.

---Ok. Thanks Dale. I wasn't aware that you could do that much with a simple T shirt. But it still begs the question....why train technique that must be "modified" for actual application? Why not train with a jacket that more closely resembles the actual clothing that an attacker would be wearing? How about a heavy duty reinforced T shirt for training rather than a big baggy jacket with no buttons? :) I still maintain that the Gi training, and the BJJ tournaments have a certain element of "fantasy-fu" to them as well. Not nearly as much as in most TMAs, but its there nonetheless. And again....don't get me wrong. I admire the BJJ guys. My primary point has simply been that they may not be the paragons of "reality" martial art that you and Terence make them out to be.


LOL @ WC having much of a conditioning element. The fact that it doesn't is one of its big problems.

---I agree with you on that point! I think there is too much of the metaphysical "chi" development and not enough of actual hard work and conditioning. But I also acknowledge that there is something to the training that helps your body conform to the structure that WCK uses. There is an aspect of the training that helps "rewire" your responses. I think that is what James has been getting at on some of his posts. Perhaps you didn't do enough WCK to experience this aspect, just as I didn't do enough BJJ to experience the T shirt modifications. ;)

[YungChun]

LOL@ good WCK not having conditioning..

LOL@ BJJ working in the street just like on the mat with gi's..

If one can't see/admit the limits of a style or system then their FOS or ignorant.

If one can't see/admit what's good in a style or system then they're also FOS or ignorant...

[JPinAZ]

The techniques done in demos should be able to be pulled off just as they are shown against other skilled opponents.

IMO, this statement sounds like all the same theororetical fantasy based stuff to me :D

[sihing]

IMO, this statement sounds like all the same theororetical fantasy based stuff to me :D

Well you know Dale told Kevin G that he thinks has more street experience than him, and doesn't believe a word of what Kev says, even though he's never met him. That is a sign of someone that has selective hearing persay, and only listens or sees what he wants to, based on his belief structure. It is getting very easy to see just what T and Dale are about, it's hilarious.

James

[Knifefighter]

IMO, this statement sounds like all the same theororetical fantasy based stuff to me :D

Flying arm bar:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8_FevrLdaw

Flying triangle:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLQk8DAYL64

Kimura:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9Rx-JgjBGs

Straight arm bar:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9Rx-JgjBGs

Twister:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvj8N6MHOXg

Flying leg scissor to heel hook:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2XRZsNQb7U

Knee bar:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gbe6wlWMYrE

Figure 4 foot lock:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBi6rcQe9ig




Please post some full contact matches of SLT or chi sao being used.

[Phil Redmond]

Phil-
With the exception of the arm bar from the knee ride in the beginning and the two neck cranks close to the end, all the techniques shown are regularly pulled off in competitions just the way they were shown.

The techniques done in demos should be able to be pulled off just as they are shown against other skilled opponents.
Oh, like the bong lops performed in the clips of our guy in his Lei Tai match. I know the guys they they fought aren't professional fighters but the techniques were pulled off against resisting opponents who were trying to hurt back.
Phil

[Phil Redmond]

. . . LOL @ WC having much of a conditioning element. The fact that it doesn't is one of its big problems.
Wow, anyone here who trained at Duncan Leungs can tell you that's not true. Look at the pic of me on my website with that six pack. I got that from training WC at 3 Great jones St. Also, I'll take some video of our conditioning class in NJ and post it next week. It uses WC to get strength and cardio. I don't believe any martial art will be effective without conditioning.

[Knifefighter]

Wow, anyone here who trained at Duncan Leungs can tell you that's not true. Look at the pic of me on my website with that six pack. I got that from training WC at 3 Great jones St. Also, I'll take some video of our conditioning class in NJ and post it next week. It uses WC to get strength and cardio. I don't believe any martial art will be effective without conditioning.

Phil-
Please post a current pic of the six pack that you have that has been developed by your WC training over the years.

[anerlich]

Please post a current pic of the six pack that you have that has been developed by your WC training over the years.

LOL, this is getting ridiculous.

You're giving ammo to the "BJJ? That's the gayest sport there is!" crowd.

[Knifefighter]

Yeah, I guess that did sound pretty gay.

(not that there's anything wrong with that)

[Phil Redmond]

Phil-
Please post a current pic of the six pack that you have that has been developed by your WC training over the years.
Lol, you made a blanket statement saying that WC people don't do conditioning. I said some do. When I was training in WC like I should I had a six pack. I don't train like that now. The guys at Duncan's did full contact. There is a picture of them after some fights at Madison Square Graden on my website as well. When I went to Yoel Judah to train I was already in condition from my training at Duncan's. So the kickboxing training wasn't hard for me. Here's a clip of Zab Judah's dad Yoel who trained me:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3di6HpvWas

Yoel trained me in kicking and fighting with boxing gloves. When I fought I did as much WC I could with the gloves on. When I first met William Cheung he taught me all sorts of WC conditioning exercises. Unfortunately I got into teaching mode over the years so I don't have the six pack you want to see. I can get it back though by training in WC the way the younger guys at the school do.

[Knifefighter]

Lol, you made a blanket statement saying that WC people don't do conditioning. I said some do. When I was training in WC like I should I had a six pack. I don't train like that now.

My point was that functional systems automatically condition the practitioners- functional systems have conditioning built into the training methods of the systems. It's almost impossible to train BJJ, wrestling, or MT and not get in hard condition... that's why you don't see the fat guys in those systems that you do in the less functional systems.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Phil-
Please post a current pic of the six pack that you have that has been developed by your WC training over the years." (Dale)


***NOW I've heard everything! :p :rolleyes: :eek: :cool:

Hey Phil, do you think he's referring to Budweiser?

Coors?

Guinness?

[Ernie]

"Phil-
Please post a current pic of the six pack that you have that has been developed by your WC training over the years." (Dale)


***NOW I've heard everything! :p :rolleyes: :eek: :cool:

Hey Phil, do you think he's referring to Budweiser?

Coors?

Guinness?

Here ya go ,,,,, and I'm a vegiterian that drinks and smokes cigars LOL

:D

yep I know it looks Gay .. but he asked for a pic:o

[sihing]

Here ya go ,,,,, and I'm a vegiterian that drinks and smokes cigars LOL

:D

yep I know it looks Gay .. but he asked for a pic:o

Okay, now I'm even more motivated to get to the gym tomorrow:)

Was that from the recent trip bro?

Looking good man, you give all of us 35+ something to shoot for, I'm jealous:cool:

James

[Ultimatewingchun]

Hey Ernie,

Was that V for Vendetta?

Is that who that was?

Hey, Batman needs a partner, V.

Robin turned out to be too nerdy! :D

[Ernie]

LOL ,, I'm repp'n for the 40 year olds now !

Sorry Batman ,,, that pic was gay enough already can't put on a cape and tights:eek:

bad mental image i think i threw up a little :D

James your probably in better shape then LOL

[sihing]

Unfortunately my body isn't shaped the way I would like it too, and even thought I hit the gym on a regular basis, it doesn't take to weight lifting easily, that's why I try to stay consistent with it to maintain what I've built up so far. Been slacking lately but tomorrow is the return to the grind. I find taking a break once in awhile is good for the motivation:)

I'm just glad that you back posting a bit on the forum, I've missed your valued inputs here:cool:


Regarding WC and Conditioning, back when I was teaching full time in Calgary, my Sifu there had 8 or 9 conditioning classes a week in his school, and they were hard workouts consisting of punching, kicking, sit ups, push ups, pad and bag work, etc.... Then there were the special workouts for those that wanted to compete, which I tried out a few times and they blew me away. Not all WC school concentrate solely on forms, drills and so forth.

J

[Ernie]

[QUOTE=sihing;

I'm just glad that you back posting a bit on the forum, I've missed your valued inputs here:cool:


J[/QUOTE]

Nah bro , ,,, just a rare thing ,, forums don't catch my attention like they used to :cool:

[sihing]

Nah bro , ,,, just a rare thing ,, forums don't catch my attention like they used to :cool:

Yup, I know the feeling. :( That's too bad though, but you've contributed lots here over the years.

JR

[Liddel]

yep I know it looks Gay .. but he asked for a pic:o

Damm ...E

Peter Andre just found his long lost bruva :o

Ive just got a one pack...but thats kiwi conditioning...beer and BBQ :cool:

DREW

[Ernie]

Damm ...E

Peter Andre just found his long lost bruva :o

Ive just got a one pack...but thats kiwi conditioning...beer and BBQ :cool:

DREW


winter is coming bro ,,,, i will fast be putting on my insulated 1 pack as well ;)

[Edmund]

My point was that functional systems automatically condition the practitioners- functional systems have conditioning built into the training methods of the systems. It's almost impossible to train BJJ, wrestling, or MT and not get in hard condition... that's why you don't see the fat guys in those systems that you do in the less functional systems.

That is so true!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/4d/Christaylor.jpg

(Famous pic)

Everyone get in shape!

I think next time, ask Phil for front AND back photos! Full length of course. Yummy.

I prefer training on the couch of WC. We use a really long one to fit the whole class. And an Extra-Extra Wide Screen TV.

[Knifefighter]

That is so true!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/4d/Christaylor.jpg

Yeah, Chris was one big guy. However, compare the percentages of lard-ass TMA guys compared to BJJ, wrestlers, or MT guys.

[Edmund]

Yeah, Chris was one big guy. However, compare the percentages of lard-ass TMA guys compared to BJJ, wrestlers, or MT guys.

I don't usually go around lifting guys shirts up to check their "conditioning".

You can keep going for it though. There's another one I've vaguely heard of: You spoon a guy from behind and try jiggling their belly fat with both hands. Maybe you can fill in the details for us.

:)

[sanjuro_ronin]

I guess a little ****-erotic stuff is appropriate in a "fantasy" thread, whatever floats your boats.

In a simple nutshell:
You must fight (and fight well) if you are going to be a fighter or at least your MA skills to fight with, and you must fight all types of systems to be able to beat them.
Period.
Thinking otherwise is indeed, pure fantasy.

[t_niehoff]

In a simple nutshell:
You must fight (and fight well) if you are going to be a fighter or at least your MA skills to fight with, and you must fight all types of systems to be able to beat them.
Period.
Thinking otherwise is indeed, pure fantasy.

Yes, fighting skill comes from fighting. And to beleive otherwise is to believe in a fantasy, it's magical thinking.

But in my view, the fantasy extends beyond that. When people teach things they cannot do themselves in fighting, when they teach from "theory" or "concepts" instead of experience, etc., they are teaching fantasy. If you go back and look at that clip I linked to, you'll see that is a fantasy sequence. Now, for me, this causes me to think that the instructor (who taught that nonsense) is teaching fantasy -- "this is how you will use the WCK tools, so praactice this" when in fact they can't be used that way in fighting. After all, if he *knew* better, if he *knew* you couldn't really make that work, why would he teach to do those things. And if he doesn't *know* better, isn't this an indictment of his WCK, of his skill and understanding of how WCK really works?

This is why the Dog Brothers motto "if you see it taught, you see it fought" is nothing more than a clever way of saying "what we do is a reality-based martial art and not a fantasy-based martial art." That motto is true of all reality-based, and hence functional, martial arts. In contrast, when you see it trained and don't see it come out in fighting, "when you see it taught and don't see it fought", you know you have a fantasy-based martial art. And fantasy-based martial art isn't just a waste of training time, it is actually counter-productive, because you are training your body to move, act, behave, etc. in ways that will fail.

[LoneTiger108]

This is why the Dog Brothers motto "if you see it taught, you see it fought" is nothing more than a clever way of saying "what we do is a reality-based martial art and not a fantasy-based martial art." That motto is true of all reality-based, and hence functional, martial arts. In contrast, when you see it trained and don't see it come out in fighting, "when you see it taught and don't see it fought", you know you have a fantasy-based martial art. And fantasy-based martial art isn't just a waste of training time, it is actually counter-productive, because you are training your body to move, act, behave, etc. in ways that will fail.

Another interesting post here t! I agree with you (again!) 100% here, BUT the 'Dog Brothers' teach openly to anyone. Wing Chun training has still, to this day, rarely been actually 'seen' by the public as much of it is completed without 'anyone' watching. All you actually 'see' are the results i.e forms, shapes and drills of past ancestors.

So, my question is how do you 'know' that what you're looking at is actually Wing Chun training at all?

I've seen and trained a few little eccentric bits, all of which you wouldn't imagine being of any use in fighting, but I still trained them because I believed they had purpose at the time. Is this still fantasy?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yes, fighting skill comes from fighting. And to beleive otherwise is to believe in a fantasy, it's magical thinking.

But in my view, the fantasy extends beyond that. When people teach things they cannot do themselves in fighting, when they teach from "theory" or "concepts" instead of experience, etc., they are teaching fantasy.

Yes and no, somethings are "gospel" regardless of ones experience, ex:
If two people fight and one of them wants if to go to the ground, the chances are better than average that it will go to the ground.
Now, I know people that have NEVER gone to the ground in a fight YET they openly teach how to deal with ground work ( most of them through bringing people into to teach what is outside their realm of expertise), even though they are not teaching per say ( though some do if said expert is not available).
As for "teaching things that cannot do themselves", well, everyone does that to an extent, especially with age.

[t_niehoff]

Another interesting post here t! I agree with you (again!) 100% here, BUT the 'Dog Brothers' teach openly to anyone. Wing Chun training has still, to this day, rarely been actually 'seen' by the public as much of it is completed without 'anyone' watching. All you actually 'see' are the results i.e forms, shapes and drills of past ancestors.

So, my question is how do you 'know' that what you're looking at is actually Wing Chun training at all?

I've seen and trained a few little eccentric bits, all of which you wouldn't imagine being of any use in fighting, but I still trained them because I believed they had purpose at the time. Is this still fantasy?


How do we know it is WCK we're looking at? I don't think that is difficult -- the tools of WCK are those movements, actions, etc. that appear in the forms and drills. The skill in any martial art is in using the tools of that art successfully in fighting. But that can't be accomplished by practicing and/or teaching to use them in ways that simply won't really work (or work well) -- that is the fantasy. And I think the Dog Bros. motto gives us the way to avoid the fantasy (see it fought).

[t_niehoff]

Yes and no, somethings are "gospel" regardless of ones experience,


Undoubtably some things are true regardless of experience. My point is we can't really know that or what those thigns are except through experience (otherwise it is simply conjecture).



ex:
If two people fight and one of them wants if to go to the ground, the chances are better than average that it will go to the ground.
Now, I know people that have NEVER gone to the ground in a fight YET they openly teach how to deal with ground work ( most of them through bringing people into to teach what is outside their realm of expertise), even though they are not teaching per say ( though some do if said expert is not available).


Here's the thing, someone can't teach what they do not "know". And in terms of physical skills, they don't really "know" it unless they can do it. When you bring someone in to teach, you are bringing in someone that can do it, someone who has that experience, right? Why would you bring someone in who couldn't do it? ;) (Only in fantasy-based MAs do they do that). But I do know what you are talking about. Lots of people "teach" things that they really only have a superficial (whether they realize it or not) knowledge, understanding and ability with.



As for "teaching things that cannot do themselves", well, everyone does that to an extent, especially with age.

Yes, but at one time they could. That's very different than teaching something they have never done.

[k gledhill]

Unless you know the idea that those arm shapes are developing you wont understand and end up with a redundant non functional rendition....just doing the forms wont do it , doing set pieces isnt it,...its not applications.....what is it
T why dont you tells us ...after 25 years you should know you wrote an article on the stance we use while developing it ...what is the idea ? :D
good article too.
:D

[t_niehoff]

Unless you know the idea that those arm shapes are developing you wont understand and end up with a redundant non functional rendition....just doing the forms wont do it , doing set pieces isnt it,...its not applications.....what is it

How do you (the generic "you", I'm not trying to be personal) know whether the "idea" that you have or is being taught is valid or not except by seeing whether you can actually make it work like that in fighting? How? Look, the girl in that clip probably believes that what she was taught and what was demo'ed was "good" or at least a valid expression of WCK. One guy may say to do this, another may say to do that, a third something else, or we may all agree -- but concensus, traditition, theory, etc. doesn't make it so. So my point is show that it works, and works well, in fighting before you teach it. Otherwise, it is just fantasy.



T why dont you tells us ...after 25 years you should know you wrote an article on the stance we use while developing it ...what is the idea ? :D
good article too.
:D

Looking at WCK from the standpoint of "the idea" is amistake IME. Instead of thinking like that, I look at WCK from the standpoint of "the task". Skill is in doing the task, not implementing an idea.

[k gledhill]

so in other words , you dont know....:cool:

[anerlich]

This Wing Chun practitioner turns 53 in December.

[Knifefighter]

This Wing Chun practitioner turns 53 in December.

Of course you are in shape... you train BJJ.

Weren't you the one making the gay abs comments earlier?

(not that there's anything wrong with that)

[t_niehoff]

so in other words , you dont know....:cool:

In other words, that's not how it works. It's not about "ideas" but about skills. People who believe they have "the idea" or that WCK is idea or concept-based are only fooling themselves - and perhaps others. You don't train your body to do an idea, you train to develop a skill (the learned ability to perform a certain task with max certainty and min time/effort). Until you realize that, you are just living the fantasy.

[monji112000]

Of course you are in shape... you train BJJ.

Weren't you the one making the gay abs comments earlier?

(not that there's anything wrong with that)

Most TMA people I know are fitness people. Just becouse you are in good shape doesn't mean you will win a fight or will even have a advantage. Every fight I have seen outside of the ring with a "BIG"(fat) guy has ended with the big guy doing most of the damage and not visually looking hurt. Anyway When I see people (men and females) who have so little fat on their body it makes me ill its just odd looking. females are supposed to have curves, and the human body is naturally a little chubby. BJ for example in his recent fights was a little pudgy yet in PERFECT shape. My WC teacher is rock solid and advocates chi kung training (running on the treadmill). Your constant generalizations don't fit everyone or ever most people. They work for the dumb people that are on the internet but how many people does that include?

of course maybe alot of the TMA you see are fat lards.. but majority of the guys I have trained with and used to train with are not. but hey what do I know? I don't have your credentials.
Just as a point I sweat 10 times more when I train Wing Chun than when I do BJJ. I work more more stomach muscles ( becouse of all the twisting motions). Then again I don't see any other lineage using the same movements..

[anerlich]

Weren't you the one making the gay abs comments earlier?


Yeah, but then there's nothing wrong with the geh, is there?

I was more amused that the demands for evidence to back up statements had got to the level of demanding topless pics of each other.

[anerlich]

Anyway When I see people (men and females) who have so little fat on their body it makes me ill its just odd looking. females are supposed to have curves, and the human body is naturally a little chubby.

Dude, I'm about two kilos heavier than I was when I was 20, and I eat whatever and whenever I want (I'm chomping on a cinnamon donut as I type). I don't even do that many sit ups and pump iron maybe twice a week for 20 minutes in a good week.

Sorry my pic made you feel ill. At least it didn't get you excited :eek:


My WC teacher is rock solid and advocates chi kung training (running on the treadmill).

I do a bit iof running, but treadmills are boring, I live close to a beautiful bit of Aussie bushland. First time I've ever heard it callied chi kung. Can you elaborate?


Your constant generalizations don't fit everyone or ever most people.

Gotta agree with that. One of the guys I'd least want to fight is about 5'5"", has a gut, and looks as innocuous as Danny de Vito. But he's very skilful.

[Ernie]

Yeah, but then there's nothing wrong with the geh, is there?

I was more amused that the demands for evidence to back up statements had got to the level of demanding topless pics of each other.


LOL ,,, Thanks for the inspiration old man;)

Dale ,,, I don't do BJJ ,,, so what's my excuse :p

[k gledhill]

you dont know....:cool:

[monji112000]

I do a bit iof running, but treadmills are boring, I live close to a beautiful bit of Aussie bushland. First time I've ever heard it callied chi kung. Can you elaborate?
I could be wrong but I was always told chi is "energy" or oxygen. The only scientifically proven method for improving chi is cardio workouts. I am not saying traditional CHi kung is wrong, its just not as effective. Nobody has ever used Chi kung to fight someone, not in the sense of iron shirt vrs a knife...


Sorry my pic made you feel ill. At least it didn't get you excited :eek:
I'm a T&A guy , got no problem with gay people though.

[Edmund]

Anyway When I see people (men and females) who have so little fat on their body it makes me ill its just odd looking. females are supposed to have curves, and the human body is naturally a little chubby.


Yeah I hear they dug up some prehistoric man bones sitting in an armchair with a big bowl of chips covered in sour cream and sweet chili sauce.

And his belt notch holes showed a lot of signs of wear indicating that they were holding in a lot of gut.


The BS meter goes both ways.

You ain't kidding. You got KF checking out guys abs on one side and you thinking that chubby is natural.

This sort of stuff is dependent on your body type, metabolism, how much exercise you do and how much you're eating. Someone could be surviving off buckets of pork rinds and creaming soda and burning off the calories with a lot of exercise to look ripped with a six-pack.

The flip side is that someone can do a lot of regular conditioning work and consume an excess of calories too. They are not going to be that ripped. (Your sumo example for instance.) So looking at their abs to see if they've done enough conditioning is no good.

[Knifefighter]

females are supposed to have curves, and the human body is naturally a little chubby.

Sorry to break this to you, but for 99.9% of human history, being chubby was the exception rather than the rule. Humans have evolved having had access to relatively small amounts of food. That's one of the reasons we don't do so well being overweight.

[Knifefighter]

LOL ,,, Thanks for the inspiration old man;)

Dale ,,, I don't do BJJ ,,, so what's my excuse :p

First excuse- you are only 40.

Second excuse- weight training.

Third excuse- I'm betting you do a lot more conditioning than 99% of WC people.

[imperialtaichi]

...Yes, fighting skill comes from fighting..."if you see it taught, you see it fought"...

Yes, traditional martial arts evolves from actual fighting. People did fight dirty and kill each other in the old days.

I agree that I have seen Wing Chun schools that is totally useless, and I have seen schools that pride themselves on fighting in the slums of China; even to the degree of taking pride in being in jail for killing someone in a fight.

I don't think WC is fantasy; it all depends on the way it is delivered to the student. Just like, one can do a Kung Fu correspondent course for a black belt. Of course the person who gets the black belt this way is going to be totally crap! but that doesn't mean Kung Fu is crap as a whole.

Afterall, WC is one of the most popular martial arts practiced by the Triads in HK. If it is really that useless, why would they bother?

Cheers,
John

[Phil Redmond]

Yes, traditional martial arts evolves from actual fighting. People did fight dirty and kill each other in the old days.

I agree that I have seen Wing Chun schools that is totally useless, and I have seen schools that pride themselves on fighting in the slums of China; even to the degree of taking pride in being in jail for killing someone in a fight.

I don't think WC is fantasy; it all depends on the way it is delivered to the student. Just like, one can do a Kung Fu correspondent course for a black belt. Of course the person who gets the black belt this way is going to be totally crap! but that doesn't mean Kung Fu is crap as a whole.

Afterall, WC is one of the most popular martial arts practiced by the Triads in HK. If it is really that useless, why would they bother?

Cheers,
John
That's why I say that people who say WC sucks haven't met the right WC people PERIOD

[YungChun]

Terence isn't saying wing chun sucks.. He's saying that 98% of the training sucks.. And while I agree with that, he also says that "good" WCK classical training also sucks, which I don't agree with.

But why bother trying to prove here with words that WCK doesn't suck? If you are confident with your training and the system as you know it then who cares what so and so says..?

[k gledhill]

Gangster fist

[Ernie]

First excuse- you are only 40.

Second excuse- weight training.

Third excuse- I'm betting you do a lot more conditioning than 99% of WC people.


haha ok maybe you got me there ,, starting S&C training with all the guys i train and a S&C coach this month ,,,, conditioning is a must in my book ;)

[Knifefighter]

Yes, traditional martial arts evolves from actual fighting. People did fight dirty and kill each other in the old days.

I agree that I have seen Wing Chun schools that is totally useless, and I have seen schools that pride themselves on fighting in the slums of China; even to the degree of taking pride in being in jail for killing someone in a fight.

I don't think WC is fantasy; it all depends on the way it is delivered to the student. Just like, one can do a Kung Fu correspondent course for a black belt. Of course the person who gets the black belt this way is going to be totally crap! but that doesn't mean Kung Fu is crap as a whole.

Afterall, WC is one of the most popular martial arts practiced by the Triads in HK. If it is really that useless, why would they bother?

Cheers,
John

LOL @ organized gangs using martial arts... maybe if they are stupid they do.

Smart gangs have always used weapons... mostly firearms, since those newfangled inventions tend to me much more deadly than any martial art ever developed.

[KPM]

When people teach things they cannot do themselves in fighting, when they teach from "theory" or "concepts" instead of experience, etc., they are teaching fantasy.

---I see your point, but I think you take it too far. By your standard, anyone that teaches Wing Chun would have to test every single technique they teach in a "real fighting" situation. So what about those techniques that are perhaps "low percentage" but still important? If one teacher never has the opportunity to use them in a fight, and so refuses to teach them to his students, then his students may never know that they exist and not have them at their disposal should that situation every come up. It reminds me of the JKD motto..."absorb what is useful, reject what is useless." But the people that really understand this will tell you that this philosophy only applies after you have a solid background. I have heard Ron Balicki say that there are things he was taught that he personally does not use. But he still includes them in his curriculum because they may be of value to someone else. He has also said that there are things that he was taught that he THOUGHT he would never use, but as time went on he found them more and more valuable.


This is why the Dog Brothers motto "if you see it taught, you see it fought" is nothing more than a clever way of saying "what we do is a reality-based martial art and not a fantasy-based martial art." That motto is true of all reality-based, and hence functional, martial arts. In contrast, when you see it trained and don't see it come out in fighting, "when you see it taught and don't see it fought", you know you have a fantasy-based martial art. And fantasy-based martial art isn't just a waste of training time, it is actually counter-productive, because you are training your body to move, act, behave, etc. in ways that will fail.

---But I have heard Marc Denny say that he still feels that a background in a "traditional" FMA is valuable. He has said that he values the "traditional" flow drills of Kali, even though you don't see them come out in fighting in exactly the same way as the drill. Just like Chi Sao, they help to build reflexes and responses that often come out in fighting in unexpected ways. Guro Denny is not an advocate of "throwing out the baby with the bathwater" and rejecting all traditional training. What he does is draw upon the traditional training to isolate and develop that things that work the best. He "functionalizes" the techniques, which is something we need to do with Wing Chun. But I get the impression that he would not agree with tossing out all the traditional training. Dog Brother Martial Arts is like the JKD of stickfighting. They have started from a "traditional" base and still draw upon "traditional" teachings in developing their own functional system.

[Liddel]

LOL @ organized gangs using martial arts... maybe if they are stupid they do.
Smart gangs have always used weapons... mostly firearms, since those newfangled inventions tend to me much more deadly than any martial art ever developed.

Thats exactly what my Sifu said when a 'well known' sifu told him he'd been fighting with the local mafia.....:rolleyes: (admittedly he didnt use the word "newfangled" :) )

There's your fantasy BS right there... people add that aspect - not the system !

:cool:
DREW

[imperialtaichi]

LOL @ organized gangs using martial arts... maybe if they are stupid they do.

Smart gangs have always used weapons... mostly firearms, since those newfangled inventions tend to me much more deadly than any martial art ever developed.

Umm.... hello.... someone's been watching too much John Woo movies.... Have you ever considered the following points?

1. Firearms are expensive. Most of the lower level Triads (which also are the ones who do most of the fighting) cannot afford guns. A lot of them are just teenagers who got sucked into the Triads and are expendible; as if the Triad boss would waste money giving them guns.
2. The favourite weapons are ones easily bought, such as knives from camping shops, meat cleavers from kitchen suppliers etc of which if they do get caught carrying them, the penalty is much less than carrying guns. Incidentally, the Chinese meat cleaver also looks a bit like the WC butterfly swords.
3. One of the most effective cut in gang wars, taught to newbie Triad members, is the upper figure 8 cut using the meat cleaver, which is actually a common move in many martial arts, including the WC Bat Jam Do. Ok, they still get killed; but at least knowing this one move is better than not knowing anything at all.
4. If one gets ambushed while having his Wonton noodles, it would be his physical fighting skills that saves him, NOT his gun, if he has one in the first place. A good martial art training can give someone this edge, whether it'd be WC or BJJ or CLF or whatever.
5. The late Wong Seung Leung has a very visible knife scar between his eyebrows, because he was once caught in the middle of a gang fight (he was an innocent victim). I would say his survival AT LEAST PARTIALLY is directly related to his WC training. I have never heard or seen that he had bullet scars.
6. Check the statistics: I don't know about the place you are from, but in Sydney there are more knives and blunt weapon injuries than gun related injuries being treated in hospitals. I believe the same is true for HK.

Please note, I respect many arts. Everyone has his/her own view as to what is useful and I respect that. Even a good boxer, grappler, UFC fighter or even a good runner will have the edge over someone who knows nothing. So if anyone wants to make statement as "LOL @ organized gangs using martial arts... maybe if they are stupid they do", please do the proper research first.

Cheers,
John

[imperialtaichi]

Thats exactly what my Sifu said when a 'well known' sifu told him he'd been fighting with the local mafia.....:rolleyes: (admittedly he didnt use the word "newfangled" :) )

There's your fantasy BS right there... people add that aspect - not the system !

:cool:
DREW

What is so BS about that? Ok, I have never met a Sifu who would openly admit he/she'd been fighting with the local mafia. No one would ever say such things unless he/she wants to end up in a prison cell. May be I do smell a bit of BS there... ;)

But organised crime syndicated infiltrates so many different business in HK, such as night clubs, Karaoke bars, and even the movie industries.... that I will not be surprised that some Kung Fu schools in HK would have mafia connections.

Cheers,
John

[t_niehoff]

When people teach things they cannot do themselves in fighting, when they teach from "theory" or "concepts" instead of experience, etc., they are teaching fantasy.

---I see your point, but I think you take it too far. By your standard, anyone that teaches Wing Chun would have to test every single technique they teach in a "real fighting" situation. So what about those techniques that are perhaps "low percentage" but still important? If one teacher never has the opportunity to use them in a fight, and so refuses to teach them to his students, then his students may never know that they exist and not have them at their disposal should that situation every come up. It reminds me of the JKD motto..."absorb what is useful, reject what is useless." But the people that really understand this will tell you that this philosophy only applies after you have a solid background. I have heard Ron Balicki say that there are things he was taught that he personally does not use. But he still includes them in his curriculum because they may be of value to someone else. He has also said that there are things that he was taught that he THOUGHT he would never use, but as time went on he found them more and more valuable.


The fundamentals of any particular MA will apply to everyone in that method. And my point is that those fundamentals should be taught/trained in a way that actually works (in fighting). Otherwise, you are not really learning/training how to use them. And the only way to know that is through experience, actually making them work. Let's say, for example, that I teach you guard passing not from experience (that tells me these things actually work) but from theory or how I believe it should work, and teach you a way of passing the guard that really won't work under realistic conditions. What are you getting then? Fantasy. If you are taught WCK san sao like in that clip I referenced, what are you getting? Fantasy. You are not learning/training to use the tools of your method as you will really need to use them.

Look at teaching/training from a BJJ or boxing or judo perspective -- because the same things apply to WCK or any method of fighting. Certainly there are many things a particular BJJ fighter or boxer or judoka may not use as part of their individual game. But regardless of what is taught, trained, etc. they know will work because THEY OR SOMEONE ARE DOING THEM IN FIGHITNG. They will see for themselves if they work or not. They will see it fought.

How can we "absorb what is useful" if we don't know what is useful? The only way to tell what is useful is through fighting and seeing for ourselves.



This is why the Dog Brothers motto "if you see it taught, you see it fought" is nothing more than a clever way of saying "what we do is a reality-based martial art and not a fantasy-based martial art." That motto is true of all reality-based, and hence functional, martial arts. In contrast, when you see it trained and don't see it come out in fighting, "when you see it taught and don't see it fought", you know you have a fantasy-based martial art. And fantasy-based martial art isn't just a waste of training time, it is actually counter-productive, because you are training your body to move, act, behave, etc. in ways that will fail.

---But I have heard Marc Denny say that he still feels that a background in a "traditional" FMA is valuable. He has said that he values the "traditional" flow drills of Kali, even though you don't see them come out in fighting in exactly the same way as the drill. Just like Chi Sao, they help to build reflexes and responses that often come out in fighting in unexpected ways. Guro Denny is not an advocate of "throwing out the baby with the bathwater" and rejecting all traditional training. What he does is draw upon the traditional training to isolate and develop that things that work the best. He "functionalizes" the techniques, which is something we need to do with Wing Chun. But I get the impression that he would not agree with tossing out all the traditional training. Dog Brother Martial Arts is like the JKD of stickfighting. They have started from a "traditional" base and still draw upon "traditional" teachings in developing their own functional system.

Why is it useful to learn movements, actions, techniques, etc. in a way that we won't really use them? Do you see that when this happens you are not really learning or developing a skill? Because a skill is our ability to perform a task (what you will do in fighting), to do a certain thing. And you are not learning or developing that. You are learning and "developing"something else, a way to not really do it. If you practice one way and then do it another when fighting, how is that good, effective training?

Doesn't it make more sense to learn the skill, practice the skill, and then use the skill (in fighting) so that you get a 1-to-1-to-1 correspondence, that it is performed consistently throughout your learning/training?

[JPinAZ]

Another interesting post here t! I agree with you (again!) 100% here, BUT the 'Dog Brothers' teach openly to anyone. Wing Chun training has still, to this day, rarely been actually 'seen' by the public as much of it is completed without 'anyone' watching. All you actually 'see' are the results i.e forms, shapes and drills of past ancestors.

So, my question is how do you 'know' that what you're looking at is actually Wing Chun training at all?

I've seen and trained a few little eccentric bits, all of which you wouldn't imagine being of any use in fighting, but I still trained them because I believed they had purpose at the time. Is this still fantasy?

The main issue here is you're trying to have discussion about WC with T who obviously doesn't know/understand squat about WC. Good luck :rolleyes:

[k gledhill]

I just erased a response to the same effect, dont waste your time with terence, he thrives on your response anything gets to close for him and 'copy /paste ' mantra :D

[Knifefighter]

---But I have heard Marc Denny say that he still feels that a background in a "traditional" FMA is valuable. He has said that he values the "traditional" flow drills of Kali, even though you don't see them come out in fighting in exactly the same way as the drill. Just like Chi Sao, they help to build reflexes and responses that often come out in fighting in unexpected ways. Guro Denny is not an advocate of "throwing out the baby with the bathwater" and rejecting all traditional training. What he does is draw upon the traditional training to isolate and develop that things that work the best. He "functionalizes" the techniques, which is something we need to do with Wing Chun. But I get the impression that he would not agree with tossing out all the traditional training. Dog Brother Martial Arts is like the JKD of stickfighting. They have started from a "traditional" base and still draw upon "traditional" teachings in developing their own functional system.

Any non-optimal, counter productive "energy development" drills that these guys are doing are overriden by the more realistic drills and actual fighting they are doing. They are able to use their stuff in spite of any traditional drills, not because of them.

[Knifefighter]

3. One of the most effective cut in gang wars, taught to newbie Triad members, is the upper figure 8 cut using the meat cleaver, which is actually a common move in many martial arts, including the WC Bat Jam Do. Ok, they still get killed; but at least knowing this one move is better than not knowing anything at all.

LOL @ an upward figure 8 with a meat cleaver. No wonder they are getting killed. Another example of using a theoretical non-functional, non-fighter's, fantasy approach by taking the natural attributes of a weapon and using it in the opposite manner in which it was designed.

[doug maverick]

LOL @ being stupid enough to believe people are stupid enough to walk around with razor blades in their mouths.
i think your a child maybe fifteen or sixteen its not about believeing like i read it or something. its believing it cause i know it to be fact. i really feel sorry for you that you walk around so ignorant, its really sad how little you know about what going on. you live in a fantasy world son. and when someone crash's you back to reality i hope and prey that you don't die.

[Knifefighter]

i think your a child maybe fifteen or sixteen its not about believeing like i read it or something. its believing it cause i know it to be fact. i really feel sorry for you that you walk around so ignorant, its really sad how little you know about what going on. you live in a fantasy world son. and when someone crash's you back to reality i hope and prey that you don't die.

Actually, you should feel sorry for yourself for hanging around with people who are stupid enough to walk around with razor blades in their mouths.

[doug maverick]

dude i don;t hang around with people who do that. i've seen people who do it, its fit in the side of the mouth in a way that even if you hit them in the side of the face the blade won;t cut them also they got fools like you around who think that its a myth and won;t expect next thing you know your on the floor with your throat cut. open your eyes son. alot of things happen out there in the streets alot. all that **** you do in your gym is for sport cause if it was for the street your thought process would be totally defferent. but then again its all about enviroment and experience. i've read some of your post here and other places and it tells me how limited you are in actual fights. don't feel bad times have changed if you get into a fist fight now you better kill the guy your fighting or else he'll come back with a gun it has happened i believe someone on these furoms posted a thread about his son who just survived the same ordeal. look i'm not trying to argue with you i'm trying to enlighten you. young kids like you are the most at risk for gang violance, so stop walking around thinking you know everything you need to know cause you don't. everything you know can be written on a ****tail napkin.

[k gledhill]

:D it gets better every day ...

[Knifefighter]

dude i don;t hang around with people who do that. i've seen people who do it, its fit in the side of the mouth in a way that even if you hit them in the side of the face the blade won;t cut them also they got fools like you around who think that its a myth and won;t expect next thing you know your on the floor with your throat cut. open your eyes son. alot of things happen out there in the streets alot. all that **** you do in your gym is for sport cause if it was for the street your thought process would be totally defferent. but then again its all about enviroment and experience. i've read some of your post here and other places and it tells me how limited you are in actual fights. don't feel bad times have changed if you get into a fist fight now you better kill the guy your fighting or else he'll come back with a gun it has happened i believe someone on these furoms posted a thread about his son who just survived the same ordeal. look i'm not trying to argue with you i'm trying to enlighten you. young kids like you are the most at risk for gang violance, so stop walking around thinking you know everything you need to know cause you don't. everything you know can be written on a ****tail napkin.

LOL... You've obviously never dealt with razor blades. You have absolutely no clue.

[doug maverick]

yea i have. my friend, razor blades is the weapon of choice for low level gang members who can afford guns but not bullets. again your showing you age my friend

[sihing]

yea i have. my friend, razor blades is the weapon of choice for low level gang members who can afford guns but not bullets. again your showing you age my friend

Doug,

Knifey really is in his 50's, lol, maybe he's over the hill and out of the loop:)

[Wayfaring]

Of course you are in shape... you train BJJ.

Weren't you the one making the gay abs comments earlier?

(not that there's anything wrong with that)

BJJ...
It's only gay if you make eye contact.

http://www.virallisetlinkit.eu/site/9285.html

[Phil Redmond]

CLF is one of the styles Triads practice for those who don't know. Alll fights don't use guns. Sometimes you have to get up close and personal
In NYC most people know about razor blades in the mouth. Guys will fight you and call out numbers letting you know in advance how many stitches you're going to get.
Here is a clip of a guy demonstrating razor fighting. Notice that he has another blade in his mouth with his talking and demonstration with the other blade. Anyone not aware of this should be if you're ever in NYC
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwQJRqlgq1I

[doug maverick]

Doug,

Knifey really is in his 50's, lol, maybe he's over the hill and out of the loop:)

i can't believe that a man in his fifties is that f ucking stupid i refuse to believe that. my granfather is in his early 90's and he knows whats going on out there so no excuse.

[doug maverick]

CLF is one of the styles Triads practice for those who don't know. Alll fights don't use guns. Sometimes you have to get up close and personal
In NYC most people know about razor blades in the mouth. Guys will fight you and call out numbers letting you know in advance how many stitches you're going to get.
Here is a clip of a guy demonstrating razor fighting. Notice that he has another blade in his mouth with his talking and demonstration with the other blade. Anyone not aware of this should be if you're ever in NYC
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwQJRqlgq1I
__________________

thank you phil i'm trying to drill this into this morons head, so he can wake up.

[Phil Redmond]

Actually, you should feel sorry for yourself for hanging around with people who are stupid enough to walk around with razor blades in their mouths.
You don't have to "hang around" with people to be affected by it. It's simply a part of life in NY Dale. I guess life in L.A. is a lot safer. I put up a clip showing razor fighting.
If you ever come to NY and get into a scrap with someone you could be affected by it personally. And you can get into a scrap in NY by simply looking at someone the wrong way or bumping into them.

[Phil Redmond]

i can't believe that a man in his fifties is that f ucking stupid i refuse to believe that. my granfather is in his early 90's and he knows whats going on out there so no excuse.
He lives in L.A. Probably in some nice safe area . . lol

[doug maverick]

yeah but with the internet at your fingertips there should be no excuse for ignorance. like i said my 90 year old grandfather who lives in the mountians in louisianna(spelling??) knows whats going on. there should be no excuse for people to be that dumb epiecially in la cause thats where the razor blade in the mouth thing started.

[monji112000]

CLF is one of the styles Triads practice for those who don't know. Alll fights don't use guns. Sometimes you have to get up close and personal
In NYC most people know about razor blades in the mouth. Guys will fight you and call out numbers letting you know in advance how many stitches you're going to get.
Here is a clip of a guy demonstrating razor fighting. Notice that he has another blade in his mouth with his talking and demonstration with the other blade. Anyone not aware of this should be if you're ever in NYC
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwQJRqlgq1I

I have heard about people keeping razor blades in their mouth. I heard about someone cutting their mouth really bad too. :D I could see how spitting it out would hurt someone.. but its really not a smart way to fight. I could see how hiding them and cutting people would be effective in your hand.. but then again you are going to cut yourself too. You are better off with a box cutter.. but honestly outside of a jail why bother with a razor blade? a small knife is WAY more effective. ... besides if its self defense use a gun or a knife.

[Knifefighter]

yea i have. my friend, razor blades is the weapon of choice for low level gang members who can afford guns but not bullets. again your showing you age my friend

LOL @ gangbangers running around with unloaded guns and razor blades in their mouths because they can't afford bullets and then spitting them out and flipping them from hand to hand while fighting.

You want to know how that urban myth started? From guys trying to smuggle them into jail when being taken into custody.

Tell ya what... try walking around with razor blades in your mouth and trying to spit them out and use them next time you get into a fight.

You guys are the ones living in fantasy land.

[sanjuro_ronin]

*Vertically challenged person yells from tower*
Da plane Boss, Da plane !!

*Distinguished Hispanic gentleman with accent*
I am Mr.Rorque, Welcome to Fantasy island !

[Phil Redmond]

I have heard about people keeping razor blades in their mouth. I heard about someone cutting their mouth really bad too. :D I could see how spitting it out would hurt someone.. but its really not a smart way to fight. I could see how hiding them and cutting people would be effective in your hand.. but then again you are going to cut yourself too. You are better off with a box cutter.. but honestly outside of a jail why bother with a razor blade? a small knife is WAY more effective. ... besides if its self defense use a gun or a knife.
If you train anything you can make it work. I've personally seen it work. I got to the City on weekend so if you live in the city I can see if I can get in touch with some guys to meet with us to show you how it works. You say it may not be a smart way to fight. I'm not going to argue that point but some are very good at it.

[Phil Redmond]

LOL @ gangbangers running around with unloaded guns and razor blades in their mouths because they can't afford bullets and then spitting them out and flipping them from hand to hand while fighting.

You want to know how that urban myth started? From guys trying to smuggle them into jail when being taken into custody.

Tell ya what... try walking around with razor blades in your mouth and trying to spit them out and use them next time you get into a fight.

You guys are the ones living in fantasy land.
I first saw this "fantasy" performed by my stepson who is now in jail for murder. I've seen fights where razors were used to slice people's faces and wrists. It's amazing how you can call what I've seen fantasy though you've never seen it. Rahsun has told me some stories about people from L.A. and I always said to not stereotype people but now I may have to agree with him. I don't believe in fantasty. I'm in the real world

[Phil Redmond]

Dale, since you know everything that goes on in the hood and I have no clue there is no since in my contiuning this dialouge with you.

[monji112000]

If you train anything you can make it work. I've personally seen it work. I got to the City on weekend so if you live in the city I can see if I can get in touch with some guys to meet with us to show you how it works. You say it may not be a smart way to fight. I'm not going to argue that point but some are very good at it.

thanks thats not my crowd. If you wanted to get a pint of guinness and go to a punk show I would consider it. Anyway this time of the years is very tough, with papers, finals, ect..

I am sure people fight with razor blades and I am sure they cut people bad.. I stand behind the fact that a small knife with a handle is probably more effective (this coming from someone who knows nothing about knife fighting). Its just logical that you are going to cut yourself, most of all juggling them ..
From what I've been told allot of jail fights have weapons that are similar to ice picks or trench knives. I talked to someone who had a fight with a sock filled with soap one time in jail. I have seen people hiding them in their mouth, back in high school. Like I said someone got cut really bad.. Hey in jail they use anything they have doesn't mean its the most effective. Honestly outside of jail just shooting someone seems more effective. But hey what do i know? I never shot anyone or cut anyone. (probably never will thank G-d). Anyway I enjoy shooting much more than playing with knives.:eek:

I will add that a nameless person was showing me some FMA using pak saos and a small blade.. wow some nasty stuff. BUT, I have yet to see something that would really defend against a realistic knife attack. Best bet RUN.

[doug maverick]

you see i don't personally no anyone who walks around like that. but i've seen it and experienced it so i'm just talking about it. i never said the guns were unloaded knifefighter aka dale the moron who is gonna end up dead in the streets from being so **** stupid. but whatever your big and bad and you can whup anyone on the streets whatever. your just one of those forum guys who talks lots of ish and can't back it up. your worthless man and i'm done arguing this point with you.

[monji112000]

you see i don't personally no anyone who walks around like that. but i've seen it and experienced it so i'm just talking about it. i never said the guns were unloaded knifefighter aka dale the moron who is gonna end up dead in the streets from being so **** stupid. but whatever your big and bad and you can whup anyone on the streets whatever. your just one of those forum guys who talks lots of ish and can't back it up. your worthless man and i'm done arguing this point with you.

yah Dale knows nothing about fighting.. I know nothing about computers... So what have you done that makes you any better then the rest of us morons on the forum?

[jesper]

There are lots of imaginative people running round in the world.

I have personally found stilletoes and small caliber guns disguesed as ballpens.
Once I was almost shot by a fake cellphone which turned out to have 3 oneshot barrels inside.

As to wether razors are used as described. I have no clue but if it is indeed used in jails. then it would stand to reason that the same persons would also use it outside as they will then be familiar with that type of weapon. Being the smartest thing or not. Personally I think its a dumb**** method, and I agree with monji and KF that your more likely to hurt yourself then others.

[Knifefighter]

Why does it not surprise me that a bunch of WC guys buy into the fantasy of people walking around with razor blades in their mouths. Tell ya what... try walking around like that for a few days like that and let me know how it works out for you.

I guess fighting with razor blades in your mouth would be the WC way of fighting with edged weapons. There are much more efficient ways, like using a couple of Benchmade or Spyderco tactical folders, but you know those WC guys- always trying to find the stupid way.

[imperialtaichi]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwQJRqlgq1I

Thanks Phil, that's a good one. I don't know about this so next time I come to NYC I'd know ;). It might actually be a good idea to start a thread somewhere so that we can all share the "nasties" that we have heard of or encountered so we could better prepare for the reality of confrontations.

The thing is, because most of the contributors in the forum are law abiding citizens, we very often do not think of all the nasty surprises we could get when we are faced with life threatening situations. I do believe "real" martial art training, not "sport" martial art training, helps. Because in real MA training, we learn not only just the fighting applications, but the whole philosophy of life preservation and how to avoid confrontations. Real martial arts evolved from survival, and I am sure in the old days people are just as nastie if not more.

I don't believe in being a hero. Sure, there are times when we have no choice but to fight, but I have yet to see a real fight that only the loser(s) gets injured and the victor(s) gets out without a scratch. As long as we get sucked into the process, it is just a matter of who is losing more.

So my motto is, walk away whenever possible. You just do not know what the other guy has up his sleeves. And if we do have to fight, use all the strategy and enviroment to keep the confrontation to the minimum. Prepare for the worst and hope for the best. Seeing Phils' post consolidates my view.

Live long and properous and you'd be the ultimate winner!

Cheers,
John

[imperialtaichi]

As to wether razors are used as described. I have no clue but if it is indeed used in jails. then it would stand to reason that the same persons would also use it outside as they will then be familiar with that type of weapon. Being the smartest thing or not. Personally I think its a dumb**** method...

Well I think it is dumb too... There are many dumb things that people do. I wouldn't do it, but the may be there's someone out there who might just be dumb enough to do it. ;)

Cheers,
John

[anerlich]

Dumbness is no barrier to success.

George W Bush.

I rest my case.

[monji112000]

Sorry to break this to you, but for 99.9% of human history, being chubby was the exception rather than the rule. Humans have evolved having had access to relatively small amounts of food. That's one of the reasons we don't do so well being overweight.
Obese and a little fat are two completely different things. I have a family of doctors and we have talked about this many times. I am in shape for someone like myself, yet I still have a small belly. my cardio is ok, nothing too hot.. but not bad. (if it wasn't for my inability to breath through my nose). Being "cut" and being healthy aren't the same thing. I am sure that if you looked at how people were eating in history a large percentage isn't going to be healthy. You can be skinny and not be healthy just like you can be too fat. I used to know a Samoan who was pretty healthy yet still fat by most people standards.
any way people who look like
http://www.skinz.org/celebrity/paris-hilton/paris-hilton-wallpaper-6.jpg
are string beans. Who would want bones poking them? unless your into pain... :o
the only thing i want to do when I see her is get some fried chicken.

[Phil Redmond]

NY is a crowded city where there is more pedestrian traffic the cars.People are in close quarters on subways, streets, elevators. etc. So I can see why people who live in areas where they drive to the store instead of walk can't understand the dynamics of the city. For one thing people don't walk around with razors in their mouths all the time. But you never know if someone had a beef with someone and happened to have the razor just in case they ran into them or was out looking for trouble.
A streetwise person wouldn't dismiss any possible threat as fantasty.

[KPM]

Terence wrote:
Why is it useful to learn movements, actions, techniques, etc. in a way that we won't really use them? Do you see that when this happens you are not really learning or developing a skill? Because a skill is our ability to perform a task (what you will do in fighting), to do a certain thing. And you are not learning or developing that. You are learning and "developing"something else

---I think they are developing an "attribute" rather than a direct application skill. The attribute developed may be timing, rhythm, flow, contact sensitivity, etc. The flow drills of Kali, like WCK Chi Sao, build attributes that then come out in application. They are also a way to put in lots of repetitions of certain motions in a short amount of time in order to "burn" them into muscle memory. They are somewhat like a boxer working the speed bag. He doesn't punch the bag in the same way that he punches the opponent. He trains on the speed bag to develop attributes such as speed, rhythm and timing.

[KPM]

Any non-optimal, counter productive "energy development" drills that these guys are doing are overriden by the more realistic drills and actual fighting they are doing. They are able to use their stuff in spite of any traditional drills, not because of them.

---If they are counter-productive, why would they still do them? As far as being able to do stuff "in spite of any traditional drills"....why don't you ask Guro Denny about that. I think he would not agree with your perspective. There was a discussion along these lines on the Dog Brother forum several months ago.

[t_niehoff]

Dumbness is no barrier to success.

George W Bush.

I rest my case.

Finally! We agree on something. :)

[t_niehoff]

---If they are counter-productive, why would they still do them? As far as being able to do stuff "in spite of any traditional drills"....why don't you ask Guro Denny about that. I think he would not agree with your perspective. There was a discussion along these lines on the Dog Brother forum several months ago.

As I see it, it's a cost-benefit thing. Some very good people believe the cost of unrealistic drills/exercises almost never outweigh the actual benefits of the training (I think Thornton feels that way), while other very good people believe that limited unrelaitic exercises/drills can, if you realize and appreciate going into the drill the limitations/problems of the drill, can confer some benefits (I think Denny feels that way).

Often people who aren't fighters (who aren't training to fight and don't fight) point to the fact that many fighters actually do practice some unrealistic exercises/drills, and use that as a justification for their use of unrealistic drills/exercises ("see fighters do the same things as we do"). But, that isn't the case. The nonfighters aren't doing the realistic training and fighting like the fighters. And with the fighting comes a perspective, which includes being able to see the unrealistic drill/exercise for what it really is, what you can use it for in terms of fighting, etc. With that perspective you will be able to ignore and disregard to some extent, the problems/limitations of that drill, particularly because it is a small part of your overall training and you are doing much realistic training/fighting.

[t_niehoff]

Terence wrote:
Why is it useful to learn movements, actions, techniques, etc. in a way that we won't really use them? Do you see that when this happens you are not really learning or developing a skill? Because a skill is our ability to perform a task (what you will do in fighting), to do a certain thing. And you are not learning or developing that. You are learning and "developing"something else

---I think they are developing an "attribute" rather than a direct application skill. The attribute developed may be timing, rhythm, flow, contact sensitivity, etc. The flow drills of Kali, like WCK Chi Sao, build attributes that then come out in application. They are also a way to put in lots of repetitions of certain motions in a short amount of time in order to "burn" them into muscle memory. They are somewhat like a boxer working the speed bag. He doesn't punch the bag in the same way that he punches the opponent. He trains on the speed bag to develop attributes such as speed, rhythm and timing.

I think there is a problem with that view. Attributes are skill specific, so they can't really be developed apart from the skill itself.

I do agree that unrealistic drills/exercises are to learn movements/actions/etc. and permit us to focus on learning them to the point we can perform them comfortably. However, if we don't then practice them as we intend to really use them - by actually suing them - they won't develop into a skill.

[Knifefighter]

---If they are counter-productive, why would they still do them? As far as being able to do stuff "in spite of any traditional drills"....why don't you ask Guro Denny about that. I think he would not agree with your perspective. There was a discussion along these lines on the Dog Brother forum several months ago.

Marc and I have had that discussion before.

[Sihing73]

Hello,

While this is not WC I guess it would be of interest to some based on their belief that some systms, Pekiti Tirsia for example in addition to Wing Chun are "fantasy based." Seems like a lot of the advocates of this belief feel that they have the golden apple so to speak. Well, here is an invitation for a Full Contact Stick and Knife Fighting event in the Phillipines. All comers are welcome. Seems to me like a good chance to show just how much "fantasy" is out there and to prove ones own effectiveness. Don't worry, I have it on good authority that similar events will be planned for the US in the future so that some of our members can put the naysayers to shame and prove that they are the only ones with the "real" knowledge to share.

Oh, funny thing is that among many of the Pekiti Tirisa brotherhood, Wing Chun is recognized as being both effective and worth training. But hey what do these guys know, after all our self proclaimed expert has stated they are part of the "fantasy based" group of theoritical fighters.

The Pekiti-Tirsia kali System is conducting a test of skill on FEbruary 12, 2008 in the Philippines .It is not a tournament but a test of oneself how effective a style or system all about FMA. Those who are talkers in the FMATALK is invited to be a man or woman to come out from their talking tongue so they can satisfy themselves what comes out from their mouth. If you cannot stand in the verbalization calisthenics you have no reason to be hiding under the curtain of woman's bedroom. Martial arts is not talking it is action and let the stick , blade , hands and feet speaks not your tongue.

Test of skill is no age limit , come and be man enough to prove your capabilities.

Location: Philippine Marines Training Ground

Forth Bonifacio, Taguig , Metro manila

Date: FEbruary 12,2008 starts at 10:00 Am.

Register address to Mandala Rommel Tortal email: rommeltortal@yahoo.com

TEl No. 011 63 920 241 9320

You can ask the rules if you are at the registration door . Be sure you make your reservation

[sihing]

Hello,

While this is not WC I guess it would be of interest to some based on their belief that some systms, Pekiti Tirsia for example in addition to Wing Chun are "fantasy based." Seems like a lot of the advocates of this belief feel that they have the golden apple so to speak. Well, here is an invitation for a Full Contact Stick and Knife Fighting event in the Phillipines. All comers are welcome. Seems to me like a good chance to show just how much "fantasy" is out there and to prove ones own effectiveness. Don't worry, I have it on good authority that similar events will be planned for the US in the future so that some of our members can put the naysayers to shame and prove that they are the only ones with the "real" knowledge to share.

Oh, funny thing is that among many of the Pekiti Tirisa brotherhood, Wing Chun is recognized as being both effective and worth training. But hey what do these guys know, after all our self proclaimed expert has stated they are part of the "fantasy based" group of theoritical fighters.

The Pekiti-Tirsia kali System is conducting a test of skill on FEbruary 12, 2008 in the Philippines .It is not a tournament but a test of oneself how effective a style or system all about FMA. Those who are talkers in the FMATALK is invited to be a man or woman to come out from their talking tongue so they can satisfy themselves what comes out from their mouth. If you cannot stand in the verbalization calisthenics you have no reason to be hiding under the curtain of woman's bedroom. Martial arts is not talking it is action and let the stick , blade , hands and feet speaks not your tongue.

Test of skill is no age limit , come and be man enough to prove your capabilities.

Location: Philippine Marines Training Ground

Forth Bonifacio, Taguig , Metro manila

Date: FEbruary 12,2008 starts at 10:00 Am.

Register address to Mandala Rommel Tortal email: rommeltortal@yahoo.com

TEl No. 011 63 920 241 9320

You can ask the rules if you are at the registration door . Be sure you make your reservation


Hey Dale,

Don't forget to bring your video camera to tape your fight, since I'm sure with your namesake and vast experience with the Dog Bro, you wouldn't let this chance to prove you point pass by:) Remember you have to post it on Youtube for it to be considered legitimate.

Have fun;)

James

[Knifefighter]

Hey Dale,

Don't forget to bring your video camera to tape your fight, since I'm sure with your namesake and vast experience with the Dog Bro, you wouldn't let this chance to prove you point pass by:) Remember you have to post it on Youtube for it to be considered legitimate.

Have fun;)

James

James-

I doubt I need to fly to the Philipines to prove a point... but you are welcome to stop by and see me next time you come down if you really want to see what I can do with the sticks.

[sihing]

James-

I doubt I need to fly to the Philipines to prove a point... but you are welcome to stop by and see me next time you come down if you really want to see what I can do with the sticks.

Not sure if that is some sort of challenge, or you are really being sincere in your willingness to teach me a few things about stickfighting:confused: Personally, all though I have dabbled a very wee bit in the sticking fighting stuff on my first trip to LA with Ernie, it's doesn't really interest me at the moment, to much stuff still to work on in my WC training. I may be makin a trip to LA soon, to train with Big Bro Ernie and his crew, so if I'm up for it and have the time, I'll let you know:) I'm sure it would be a fun time;)

James

[t_niehoff]

Hello,

While this is not WC I guess it would be of interest to some based on their belief that some systms, Pekiti Tirsia for example in addition to Wing Chun are "fantasy based." Seems like a lot of the advocates of this belief feel that they have the golden apple so to speak. Well, here is an invitation for a Full Contact Stick and Knife Fighting event in the Phillipines. All comers are welcome. Seems to me like a good chance to show just how much "fantasy" is out there and to prove ones own effectiveness. Don't worry, I have it on good authority that similar events will be planned for the US in the future so that some of our members can put the naysayers to shame and prove that they are the only ones with the "real" knowledge to share.

Oh, funny thing is that among many of the Pekiti Tirisa brotherhood, Wing Chun is recognized as being both effective and worth training. But hey what do these guys know, after all our self proclaimed expert has stated they are part of the "fantasy based" group of theoritical fighters.


You don't need to go to the Phillipines to see the fantasy -- all you need to do is fight with the stick. See if you can do in fighting those things you train to do as you train to do them. Simple.

[Knifefighter]

While this is not WC I guess it would be of interest to some based on their belief that some systms, Pekiti Tirsia for example in addition to Wing Chun are "fantasy based."

If they are, indeed, stick fighting full contact with minimal or no protection, then they are not fanstasy non-fighters. However, fighting with sticks has nothing to do with WC.

If they are training and non-fighting with their WC like most of you guys, then they are theoretical fantasy non-fighters in their non-stickfighting realm.

[LoneTiger108]

If they are, indeed, stick fighting full contact with minimal or no protection, then they are not fanstasy non-fighters. However, fighting with sticks has nothing to do with WC.

Finally, I'm able to post again to this busy thread!

Knifefighter, no wonder you can not see beyond your own experience as you have definately not practised any Wing Chun from the Lee Shing Family. Thankfully lol!

Then again, you obviously have never heard of our 'Seurng Gwan' either, but hey, you've researched Wing Chun well enough to tell me that fighting with sticks is nothing to do with us! In some respects you're right, as I'd never be caught trying to use one of those strange toothpicks!

We tend to prefer the words 'Double Clubs', so you work that one out. Wing Chun is so 'this or that'...

[Phil Redmond]

If they are, indeed, stick fighting full contact with minimal or no protection, then they are not fanstasy non-fighters. However, fighting with sticks has nothing to do with WC.

If they are training and non-fighting with their WC like most of you guys, then they are theoretical fantasy non-fighters in their non-stickfighting realm.
Uhhh, Baat Jam Do...;)

[Knifefighter]

We tend to prefer the words 'Double Clubs', so you work that one out. Wing Chun is so 'this or that'...

Please post a link to a WC person fighting with the "Double Clubs"... anything like this will do:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6EZE_rmsQs

[sanjuro_ronin]

Please post a link to a WC person fighting with the "Double Clubs"... anything like this will do:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6EZE_rmsQs

Was that you at the 1:25 - 1:29 mark ?

[Phil Redmond]

Was that you at the 1:25 - 1:29 mark ?
Yeah, that's Dale. You've got to give him props for what he does. He's no keyboard warrior.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yeah, that's Dale. You've got to give him props for what he does. He's no keyboard warrior.

Thought he looked familar, I always give ANYONE props for fighting full contact, anyone.

[sihing]

Was that you at the 1:25 - 1:29 mark ?

What is interesting, in lots of the video that I have seen of Dale, he has a smile on his face most of the time, like he is happy. Why can't he be like that here, lol. I'm sure in a face to face situation he would be cool to hang with, as he is intense about his Martial Art and trains hard obviously, so he has my respect for that. I just don't like the blanket statements about WC training and it's practitioners:(

James

[Ultimatewingchun]

"I just don't like the blanket statements about WC training and it's practitioners." (James)


***YOU mean you haven't caught on yet?

That's a big part of how he gets his kicks. He thinks he's got a nice easy target to shoot at here. However, given his experiences with Phil and Rahsun last year, my money says that the more people he gets to meet/work out with on this forum - the more the evil Dale will disappear.

We've got to clean up Gotham City, you know...;)

[Phil Redmond]

Thought he looked familar, I always give ANYONE props for fighting full contact, anyone.
That's a good way to look at it. Many people who've never put themselves out there to fight full contact will make negative comments about fight clips. It takes heart to put yourself out there so all who do get props from me.

[KPM]

I started this thread in order to suggest the BJJ may not be the paragon of "functional" or "reality" martial arts that Terrence and Dale would have us believe.

Yesterday I was reading the latest issue of "Martial Arts Masters Magazine" and came across an interesting interview. It was entitled "An Inconvenient Truth." That article contained the following quote:

"Today, nearly 95% of all BJJ practitioners are being taught and focusing their efforts on preparing for competitions, including the Mundial. The problem is that 95% of what is being used in competition does not apply, and will not work in a real fight."

That is a comment from Ryron Gracie, son of Rorion, grandson of Helio. and the primary instructor at the Gracie Academy. It suggests the strong possibility that Ryron would agree that there is an element of "fantasy fu" in BJJ, just as in other martial arts. Granted...its a matter of degree. But again, perhaps BJJ isn't the paragon of "reality" fighting that Terrence and Dale would like us to believe. Just thought I would close out my involvement on this thread with words from someone who should have good insight into BJJ itself.

[air]

You know something, threads like this sorta eerk the bejebis out of me. Is that even a word?

I don't claim to know how other people train, but Ive been training as a private student for a very long time now. I train a good 4 hours a day for myself and teach on top of that. Thats 4 hours everyday day in and day out year after year.

I think this topic has nothing to do with wing chun and everything to do with individual people.

How does one train should be the question. Not everyone foams at the mouth when they see violence some people actually prefer never to fight. Over the years I have gotten fractures , dislocated joints etc... Thats from training very realistically. Training realistically hurts, not much room for error.

I want to address this next part to every person that remotely bashes wing chun in any fashion.

You personally have no idea what wing chun is or its purpose and have missed the boat entirely. You are the one listening to and creating the silly trash talk.

Maybe your mommy didn't tuck you in at night , who knows what the problem is.

I come to this forum because there are tons of great information here.

I train to know what a person feels like at touch and make my decision on what to do in a fraction of a second.

Yes I agree there is bad wing chun, but its not because a person wasn't taught by any particular linage of wing chun. Mostly its because said teacher is a bad teacher, and guess what every Martial system on the planet has that problem.

Do you guys watch the history channel, if so did you the episode of human weapon that showed wing chun.

Notice they put him against a 18yrold boy to fight, and in my eyes he won that fight , but barely. Did you also notice they didn't put him against the wing chun teacher. Why do you think that is ? Thats right because the wing chun teacher would have just dropped him where he stood.

Besides if you want Wing Chun to work you have to first stop caring about winning (forcing) a fight and just fight.

I want to ask you a question.

If someone you love with your entire heart and soul was in trouble, would you be able to help that person ?

Every person on this earth has a built in mechanism called fight or flight, Ya I know you all heard it before.

I have 2 daughters one is 4 and the other 10months old. They are my life I will protect them at all cost. My life is meaningless without them.

Wing Chun provides all the knowledge and skill you will ever need to defend yourself in a real life fight. Put wing chun in a sports enviroment and we lose hands down. We rely on sensitivity something Gloves any Gloves get in the way.
Besides I like to win fights fast and efficiently why would I want to play games were the rules don't favor true self-defense. All the ufc and programs like that have done is confuse people more.

Wing chun is close range fighting system , YOU know right before someone takes you to the ground. Ya I heard that 90percent of fights end up on the ground. I bet
you a good portion of that 10percent are wing chun fighters.

ALLS im saying is stop dissing wang chun Its a great system

[Nick Forrer]

Wing Chun provides all the knowledge and skill you will ever need to defend yourself in a real life fight.

Incorrect



Put wing chun in a sports enviroment and we lose hands down.


Incorrect - my school has a number of wins in MMA, Boxing and kickboxing



We rely on sensitivity something Gloves, any Gloves get in the way.

Incorrect



Besides I like to win fights fast and efficiently why would I want to play games
were the rules don't favor true self-defense.

Who plays games? Knocking someone out, breaking their arm, slamming them to the ground or choking them unconcious isnt a valid way to defend youself? ANd yet these are all valid ways to end an MMA fight. Just think a little more about what you are saying before you type.



All the ufc and programs like that have done is confuse people more.

The only confusion arises from peoples traditional presumptions and beliefs about real fighting being called into question



Ya I heard that 90percent of fights end up on the ground. I bet
you a good portion of that 10percent are wing chun fighters.


Incorrect

[Nick Forrer]

I started this thread in order to suggest the BJJ may not be the paragon of "functional" or "reality" martial arts that Terrence and Dale would have us believe.

Yesterday I was reading the latest issue of "Martial Arts Masters Magazine" and came across an interesting interview. It was entitled "An Inconvenient Truth." That article contained the following quote:

"Today, nearly 95% of all BJJ practitioners are being taught and focusing their efforts on preparing for competitions, including the Mundial. The problem is that 95% of what is being used in competition does not apply, and will not work in a real fight."

That is a comment from Ryron Gracie, son of Rorion, grandson of Helio. and the /primary instructor at the Gracie Academy. It suggests the strong possibility that Ryron would agree that there is an element of "fantasy fu" in BJJ, just as in other martial arts. Granted...its a matter of degree. But again, perhaps BJJ isn't the paragon of "reality" fighting that Terrence and Dale would like us to believe. Just thought I would close out my involvement on this thread with words from someone who should have good insight into BJJ itself.

Keith...you should actually train in some BJJ before commenting on it. There are four expressions of BJJ - Gi, No GI, MMA and street. Helio and sons dont like Gi and No Gi because of
a) the points system and time limits (meaning you can stall to a win )
b) the neglecting of the traditional self defense curriculum (a specific set if techniques)
c) The positions that would leave you vulnerable to striking on the street (e.g. half guard)

And they dont like MMA because to be good in it now you have to be good at wrestling and striking too....which the Gracies traditionally lack

But what makes BJJ so effective and what remains constant no matter what the expression (sport or non sport) are

a) the training methods (sparring against skilled resisting opponents) ,
b) the fundamentals i.e. concepts (leverage, base, position etc.) principles (posture, action/ reaction, weight distribution etc.) and ways of moving (e.g. bridging, shrimping, sprawling, hip heisting etc.)
and
c)the strategy (progressing up the positional hierachy - so you always have a specific goal/reference point in a fight).

[LoneTiger108]

Please post a link to a WC person fighting with the "Double Clubs"... anything like this will do:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6EZE_rmsQs

Great clip of the Dog Brothers tourney! I was laughing slightly when the sticks when out the window for an all out bash-fest NHB style. But hey! That's what happens when you drop your weapon, isn't it?

Decent work by most there, and I've always respected the competitors of this sort of match, but still hard to find Wing Chun people actually 'using' Wing Chun Double Clubs to be honest Knifefighter!

Most inherit or mix their methods with Escrima/Kali/Pares concepts at best, so the chances of me finding anyone from my background actually competing is hard. But I will try. Lee Shing Family is so small, it may take more time for us all to see actual practitioners that can compete (safetly!)

Most of what I see in the clip is simply Wing Chun, but I would say that eh!

[sanjuro_ronin]

Keith...you should actually train in some BJJ before commenting on it. There are four expressions of BJJ - Gi, No GI, MMA and street. Helio and sons dont like Gi and No Gi because of
a) the points system and time limits (meaning you can stall to a win )
b) the neglecting of the traditional self defense curriculum (a specific set if techniques)
c) The positions that would leave you vulnerable to striking on the street (e.g. half guard)

And they dont like MMA because to be good in it now you have to be good at wrestling and striking too....which the Gracies traditionally lack

But what makes BJJ so effective and what remains constant no matter what the expression (sport or non sport) are

a) the training methods (sparring against skilled resisting opponents) ,
b) the fundamentals i.e. concepts (leverage, base, position etc.) principles (posture, action/ reaction, weight distribution etc.) and ways of moving (e.g. bridging, shrimping, sprawling, hip heisting etc.)
and
c)the strategy (progressing up the positional hierachy - so you always have a specific goal/reference point in a fight).

Nick has heel hooked the correct and GnP'd it just to make sure.

[Jeff Bussey]

Hey Phil


CLF is one of the styles Triads practice for those who don't know. Alll fights don't use guns. Sometimes you have to get up close and personal
In NYC most people know about razor blades in the mouth. Guys will fight you and call out numbers letting you know in advance how many stitches you're going to get.
Here is a clip of a guy demonstrating razor fighting. Notice that he has another blade in his mouth with his talking and demonstration with the other blade. Anyone not aware of this should be if you're ever in NYC
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwQJRqlgq1I

Man the stuff they were doing in that vid was crazy. It reminds of Thug Workout I think I've posted it before

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b641jiO8bS4&feature=related


That was some impressive strength.
Oh ya, BTW, I'm stealing that vid and posting it on my facebook :D

J

[t_niehoff]

What is interesting, in lots of the video that I have seen of Dale, he has a smile on his face most of the time, like he is happy. Why can't he be like that here, lol.


He's smiling on that clip, I wager, because like most fighters, he's doing what he likes to do: fighting. Which is why he practices MAs in the first place: to get better doing the activity he enjoys.

Why can't he "be like that here"? I wager because he's not dealing with other fighters for the most part.



I'm sure in a face to face situation he would be cool to hang with, as he is intense about his Martial Art and trains hard obviously, so he has my respect for that. I just don't like the blanket statements about WC training and it's practitioners:(

James


My experience is that genuine fighters are cool people to hang with -- if you don't try to sell them on BS. You may not like "blanket statements about WC training and its practitioners" but unfortunately they are valid.

[sihing]

...You may not like "blanket statements about WC training and its practitioners" but unfortunately they are valid.

Your incorrect. IMO when someone makes a blanket statment, they mean everyone, and that is not true nor is there anyway to prove it. If he says, "Generally, or from what I have seen or have investigated, bla bla bla..", then that would not be taken as everyone, which would be a more accurate portrayal of what the reality is, same with you T, since you have not met everyone personally on this board, nor do you know exactly what every WC practitioners capabilities or training habits is. You think you can tell from what people write here, but you the fact is you can't:)

One thing, this is a WING CHUN forum, where we discuss WING CHUN. That might mean we are not discussing the strict fighting effectiveness of the art, but rather the concept behind what we are doing, the technique behind what we are doing, the theory behind what we are doing, the differences between us and what we are doing. Everytime that happens, either you or Dale pipe up and ask for video, asking for proof that it works. Sometimes that is not the ultimate point. This is a DISCUSSION board, where we talk, debate, argue, agree, wonder, about things Wing Chun related. Sometimes we get sick of it and get lost for awhile only to come back with the same old thoughts or something new on our minds, that we would like to share with like minded people.



James

[sanjuro_ronin]

My experience is that genuine fighters are cool people to hang with -- if you don't try to sell them on BS.

I know quite a few that are rotten *******s, but in general you are correct.

[t_niehoff]

Your incorrect. IMO when someone makes a blanket statment, they mean everyone, and that is not true nor is there anyway to prove it. If he says, "Generally, or from what I have seen or have investigated, bla bla bla..", then that would not be taken as everyone, which would be a more accurate portrayal of what the reality is, same with you T, since you have not met everyone personally on this board, nor do you know exactly what every WC practitioners capabilities or training habits is. You think you can tell from what people write here, but you the fact is you can't:)


Blanket statements are indeed generalities, and of course, there can always be exceptions. Smoking is bad for everyone's health. There is a blanket statement. It is true. Your fighting skill comes from fighting, and your skill level, and corresponding understanding of WCK, will dependon the amount of quality sparring you've done (using your wCK tools). Another blanket statment. Also true.



One thing, this is a WING CHUN forum, where we discuss WING CHUN. That might mean we are not discussing the strict fighting effectiveness of the art, but rather the concept behind what we are doing, the technique behind what we are doing, the theory behind what we are doing, the differences between us and what we are doing. Everytime that happens, either you or Dale pipe up and ask for video, asking for proof that it works. Sometimes that is not the ultimate point. This is a DISCUSSION board, where we talk, debate, argue, agree, wonder, about things Wing Chun related. Sometimes we get sick of it and get lost for awhile only to come back with the same old thoughts or something new on our minds, that we would like to share with like minded people.

James

I understand your frustration. You and others want to be able to discuss WCK theories, concepts, techniques, differences, etc. My POV is that most of that, however, is fantasy and not based on anything approaching reality -- so what you are saying, from my perspective, is that this forum is essentailly a Dungeons & Dragons discussion board. When you discuss WCK theories or techniques it is the same as discussing which magic ring to use to get past the ogre! To have any validity, our discussions need to be grounded in reality. To be reality-based, not fantasy-based. But to be reality-based requires that you are practicing in a reality-based way.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Blanket statements are indeed generalities, and of course, there can always be exceptions. Smoking is bad for everyone's health. There is a blanket statement. It is true. Your fighting skill comes from fighting, and your skill level, and corresponding understanding of WCK, will dependon the amount of quality sparring you've done (using your wCK tools). Another blanket statment. Also true.

Smoking is bad for everyone's health is a blanket statement and not a generalization since there is no exception.
Saying that WC practoners live in La-la land is a grossly inaccurate blanket statement of there are exceptions.
Saying the ALL the WC people you've met suck is a blanket statement and can even be an accurate one since you are not referring to all but to only the very limited ones you have met.
Saying that most WC people don't fight enough is a generalization and one that may will be very accurate.

Anyone that uses blanket statements is just stirring up drama.

[Graychuan]

Blanket statements are indeed generalities, and of course, there can always be exceptions. Smoking is bad for everyone's health. There is a blanket statement. It is true. Your fighting skill comes from fighting, and your skill level, and corresponding understanding of WCK, will dependon the amount of quality sparring you've done (using your wCK tools). Another blanket statment. Also true.



I understand your frustration. You and others want to be able to discuss WCK theories, concepts, techniques, differences, etc. My POV is that most of that, however, is fantasy and not based on anything approaching reality -- so what you are saying, from my perspective, is that this forum is essentailly a Dungeons & Dragons discussion board. When you discuss WCK theories or techniques it is the same as discussing which magic ring to use to get past the ogre! To have any validity, our discussions need to be grounded in reality. To be reality-based, not fantasy-based. But to be reality-based requires that you are practicing in a reality-based way.



Ive yet to see why MMA is considered 'reality' based. Especially since most things like eye gouges, groin strikes, small joint manipulation are all outlwed so that the cage fight satifies the spectators. All the stuff you could use in a real fight is outlawed in Cage, MMA or whatever. Besides, If Im wanting to end a fight quickly, im not going to the ground.

~Cg~

[sanjuro_ronin]

Ive yet to see why MMA is considered 'reality' based. Especially since most things like eye gouges, groin strikes, small joint manipulation are all outlwed so that the cage fight satifies the spectators. All the stuff you could use in a real fight is outlawed in Cage, MMA or whatever. Besides, If Im wanting to end a fight quickly, im not going to the ground.


Closest thing to reality outside reality, yes it is.
You do realize that "going to the ground" is NOT the prefered method of fighting in MMA and that it is only ONE 3rd of it ?

[sihing]

I understand your frustration. You and others want to be able to discuss WCK theories, concepts, techniques, differences, etc. My POV is that most of that, however, is fantasy and not based on anything approaching reality -- so what you are saying, from my perspective, is that this forum is essentailly a Dungeons & Dragons discussion board. When you discuss WCK theories or techniques it is the same as discussing which magic ring to use to get past the ogre! To have any validity, our discussions need to be grounded in reality. To be reality-based, not fantasy-based. But to be reality-based requires that you are practicing in a reality-based way.


The discussions are based on our experiences, knowledge, skills, and our ability to explain what that all means to others in the written form. Who's to say that my experience isn't real, or someones else's isn't real? You? I don't think so. What it all comes down to is credibility, do you trust the source of the information. If not, then take it for what it is, and disgard it. For example, when Dale talks about submission/BJJ fighting and techniques I listen, he has credibility with me in that regard. When it comes to TWC I listen to Phil, Victor, Andrew N, as they are my peers in that system and have credibility in that regard. Those people I listed don't have credibility with me in all areas, and that is true for everyone since no one has all the answers or skills in all areas of Martial Arts. We discuss, we theorize, we sometimes talk about where the left big toe should point (even though we shouldn't, lol), then we learn (whether or not the material learn is useful for us, is up to each individual to evaluate, and decide whether to absorb it or discard it, ala Bruce Tao of JKD).

James

[sihing]

...Anyone that uses blanket statements is just stirring up drama.

Or to promote an agenda, and see that it proliferates.

[t_niehoff]

Ive yet to see why MMA is considered 'reality' based. Especially since most things like eye gouges, groin strikes, small joint manipulation are all outlwed so that the cage fight satifies the spectators. All the stuff you could use in a real fight is outlawed in Cage, MMA or whatever. Besides, If Im wanting to end a fight quickly, im not going to the ground.

~Cg~

Because you don't understand what "reality-based" means. You are focusing on individual tools (the so-called "foul tactics"). Reality -based means that the skills you do have will work, function, operate, in a fighting environment (where you have a genuinely resisting opponent). Boxing will work in the ring, in the street, in a bar, etc. because the skills boxing develops are realistic skills. And it develops those skills by practicing them in a realistic environment (sparring). BJJ will work in a ring, cage, street, bar, etc. because the skills BJJ develops are realistic. And it develops those skills by practicing them in a realistic environment (sparring).

The thing about "foul tactics" is that, yes, they can be effective measures (although most don't have the stopping power many associate with them). BUT, our ability to actually use them will depend on having reality-based skills. IOWs, if you have a good, solid ground game you can add "foul tactics" to that game should you ever need to. Or, you can not use other aspects depending on the circumstances (not usegi chokes if the opponent is not wearing a collar). But without that game, without those realistic skills, you won't be able to use the "foul tactics."

[Graychuan]

Closest thing to reality outside reality, yes it is.
You do realize that "going to the ground" is NOT the prefered method of fighting in MMA and that it is only ONE 3rd of it ?


I understand your point man...I really do....but how many MMA bouts do you see get paused to let one of the fighters recoup from an 'illlegal' groin hit or the accidental eye gouge. They write it off as unintentional to continue the fight and all kinds of stuff or maybe at some point they do penalize them.
On the street. these are all valuable parts of any Kung Fu practitioners arsenal. Hell, the 3rd hand form in Wing Chun translates as 'Darting Fingers' . But what use is it if its 'outlawed' in MMA, Cage or whatever.:confused:


~Cg~

[sanjuro_ronin]

RE: "foul tactics".

If they are your "holy grail", find another system.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I understand your point man...I really do....but how many MMA bouts do you see get paused to let one of the fighters recoup from an 'illlegal' groin hit or the accidental eye gouge. They write it off as unintentional to continue the fight and all kinds of stuff or maybe at some point they do penalize them.
On the street. these are all valuable parts of any Kung Fu practitioners arsenal. Hell, the 3rd hand form in Wing Chun translates as 'Darting Fingers' . But what use is it if its 'outlawed' in MMA, Cage or whatever.:confused:


~Cg~

I know what you are saying, but remember the first UFC's and all the Vale Tudo matches allowed all that and the results were the same.
And remember, competition and training are not the same, MMA for the "street" is quite brutal, far more than the "ring version".

[t_niehoff]

The discussions are based on our experiences, knowledge, skills, and our ability to explain what that all means to others in the written form. Who's to say that my experience isn't real, or someones else's isn't real? You? I don't think so. What it all comes down to is credibility, do you trust the source of the information.


That is exactly the problem (and the basis of the traditional viewpoint) -- you can't trust the source. That's what leads to the fantasy. Do just the opposite: don't trust the source, whoever it is. Trust in evidence and reason. Critical thinking is the only way to discern the truth. But critical thinking is not easy, is a difficult skill to develop, and takes constant, continual effort.



If not, then take it for what it is, and disgard it. For example, when Dale talks about submission/BJJ fighting and techniques I listen, he has credibility with me in that regard.


But Dale would even tell you not to take his word for anything -- to go see (the evidence) for yourself. It should never be a case of credibilty.



When it comes to TWC I listen to Phil, Victor, Andrew N, as they are my peers in that system and have credibility in that regard. Those people I listed don't have credibility with me in all areas, and that is true for everyone since no one has all the answers or skills in all areas of Martial Arts. We discuss, we theorize, we sometimes talk about where the left big toe should point (even though we shouldn't, lol), then we learn (whether or not the material learn is useful for us, is up to each individual to evaluate, and decide whether to absorb it or discard it, ala Bruce Tao of JKD).

James

There is nothing wrong with listening to anyone and everyone. But I think it only prudent not to believe anyone. Sound conclusions only come from evidence (fighting experience, yours and others') and from reason (based on evidence) applied critically.

[Graychuan]

I know what you are saying, but remember the first UFC's and all the Vale Tudo matches allowed all that and the results were the same.
And remember, competition and training are not the same, MMA for the "street" is quite brutal, far more than the "ring version".



This is also true of any other martial art.
I am also curious. What are the other differences do you see from the 'street mma' and the 'ring versions'?

~Cg~

[sanjuro_ronin]

This is also true of any other martial art.
I am also curious. What are the other differences do you see from the 'street mma' and the 'ring versions'?

~Cg~

The differences are in context and intent, the techniques and training remain pretty much the same.
There is more "get off the ground" and more " be aware of concealed weapons" type of thing, but even that is present in MMA training when geared to competition, just in a "different" way.

Not sport fighter is ever without the realization that ring and street are different.

[Graychuan]

The differences are in context and intent, the techniques and training remain pretty much the same.
There is more "get off the ground" and more " be aware of concealed weapons" type of thing, but even that is present in MMA training when geared to competition, just in a "different" way.

Not sport fighter is ever without the realization that ring and street are different.



This seems to be the same argument that all us 'Stylists' make about our arts. You are also saying that there is more' get off the ground' training. Why is this?

~Cg~

[sanjuro_ronin]

This seems to be the same argument that all us 'Stylists' make about our arts. You are also saying that there is more' get off the ground' training. Why is this?

~Cg~

Why is there more "get off the ground" training?
Because sport combat fighters are notorious for having common sense, regardless of what anyone OUTSIDE the sport MA world tells you.

[nschmelzer]

Hmmm. This guy was using his "fantasy-based" traditional martial arts (TMA) to take care of a problem he was having. It looks like he was using some sort of fantasy karate TMA. I wonder if the guy he knocked out in the street fight knew he was up against a fantasy-based TMA?

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=aaec47fa9a&p=1

Oh yea, judging by all the friends of the guy who got knocked out - I am sure the TMA guy would have gotten stomped by multiple attackers if he had attempted a take-down for some grappling, submission or ground & pound.

(I can hardly wait to hear why this fight is not realistic - or how the TMA guy would have been smoked by someone with MMA training.)

I always bet on the fighter - not the style or system. But WCK is a great system because of its tools, techniques, strategies, etc. MMA is just a method of training.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Hmmm. This guy was using his "fantasy-based" traditional martial arts (TMA) to take care of a problem he was having. It looks like he was using some sort of fantasy karate TMA. I wonder if the guy he knocked out in the street fight knew he was up against a fantasy-based TMA?

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=aaec47fa9a&p=1

Oh yea, judging by all the friends of the guy who got knocked out - I am sure the TMA guy would have gotten stomped by multiple attackers if he had attempted a take-down for some grappling, submission or ground & pound.

(I can hardly wait to hear why this fight is not realistic - or how the TMA guy would have been smoked by someone with MMA training.)

I always bet on the fighter - not the style or system. But WCK is a great system because of its tools, techniques, strategies, etc. MMA is just a method of training.

LOL !
Dude, of all the videos to choose from...