Try to never mirror your opponent’s stance.

[Ali. R]

Try to never mirror your opponent’s stance (he’s in a right forward stance and you’re in a left forward stance, or the other way around), its just way to much movement while defending; you will have to do really deep pivoting in order to keep one on your outside… If you’re right-handed, fight right-handed, if your left-handed fight left–handed… But in most wing chun systems they fight dominate hand up front, so adjust accordantly…

Just as I was taught to fight left-handed, but I’m really right handed and can fight both ways very well… I can write with my left and right hand, I guess I was just born that way… I teach all of my left-handed boxers too fight by pivoting deep off the front leg, that keeps one from going to your outside (a common practice for left-handed boxers and for right-handed boxers that are fighting a lefthander)… Here’s some footage on what I’m trying too say…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feLvs4-q6tE

It’s just my opinion and some well-known facts within the fighting game, nothing more…


Ali.

_______________________________________________

"Wing Chun is a “Mind Set”, which gives tangible meaning to "little ideal". If the mind set is weak then the ideal does not exist".

[sihing]

I used to love fighting from the mirror side (what I used to call a parallel stance), but now after re-evaluation I can see that it leaves little in the relm of controling your opponent. When you step outside of your opponent lead foot, in a mirror position, it is very difficult to effect his center axis or balance points. Yeah, you do have a slight positional advantage of your two hands against his one, for maybe a second or two before the guy refaces you. I'd much rather have control of his balance and position than the blindside.

In your counter to the move, if your partner had his lead foot on the inside of your lead foot, instead of the outside, he could easily follow your center and take your balance away, no matter where you move to, but with the other foot position you can't as his leg is in the way.

Just my loonies worth (and today that is worth more than your dollar :) ).

James

[Phil Redmond]

A subtle slam at TWC? How nice. I wonder why orthodox boxers have trouble fighting south paws. Everyone should do what works for them personally. At our school we fight using a parallel and cross stances. If it ain't broke don't fix it. Don't live in a box. And for those WC purists, I have video of a WC Sifu in HK showing how YM taught him how to fight on the blindside. So obivously Yip Man taught that as well.
For the real fighters, who cares anyway? No matter where you put your foot, a win is a win.

[Ali. R]

I just prefer a solid and clean win, no slops… When I did tournaments it was very political, so if it didn’t come off clean you are subject to not get the win… In most tournaments that I was in, I was hit one to three times tops, because of this knowledge…

If you had read my post very carefully you would see that the right-hander must do the same thing as left-hander; if he don’t, it will force his right side too work harder … But if you’re both right-handed, all your opponent have too do is switch legs forward; how you say “If it ain't broke don't fix it.”… If he switches legs,, then it’s broking…

Never take my word for it, just try it for yourself…


Ali Rahim.

[Ali. R]

I used to love fighting from the mirror side (what I used to call a parallel stance), but now after re-evaluation I can see that it leaves little in the relm of controling your opponent. When you step outside of your opponent lead foot, in a mirror position, it is very difficult to effect his center axis or balance points. Yeah, you do have a slight positional advantage of your two hands against his one, for maybe a second or two before the guy refaces you. I'd much rather have control of his balance and position than the blindside.

In your counter to the move, if your partner had his lead foot on the inside of your lead foot, instead of the outside, he could easily follow your center and take your balance away, no matter where you move to, but with the other foot position you can't as his leg is in the way.

Just my loonies worth (and today that is worth more than your dollar :) ).

James



That must have been an interesting find (coming from a parallel fight stance)…
Take care, Dave and thanks a lot… I wont let you down…

Ali Rahim.

[JPinAZ]

Interesting post Ali!

I think your theories are valid (mirroring is bad) - in the context of the video you provided. But I do not believe they are valid outside the video. IMO, both the mirrored & non mirrored are effective, depending on the way they are used. I will explain.

In the video, with the mirrored attack, your opponent stepped off to the side when stepping forward - this is giving up space. This allowed you to counter, reposition, etc. It gave you the time and distance to do so, as well as allowed you to still have your structure and CL. Just from a technique POV, based on his attack and side step when entering in mirrored stance, I would say you didn't even have to move at all to take the advatage! A good biu sau to your opponents center when he stepped off to the side would have done the job.
But, this is not the only way to enter on someone from the mirrored stance, and I know it can be very effective. One of the advatages from entering on the 'outside' in the mirrored stance is you put all your 4 weapons (2 hands & feet)against only a few of your opponents. But eating up the space with FORWARD intent is what makes this work.

There are also disadvatages of attacking in a crossed stance (right lead leg vs right lead leg). You have all your weapons, but so does your opponent! Bridging the gap in this alignement can also be done safely, but there are similoar dissadvatages as well if you do not do it properly. IMO, nothing is perfect if we loose our WC 'identity', whether it's giving up space by side-stepping, not attacking CL, not controlling both arm, etc.

Finally, in WC, we are taught to not have preference. You just except things as they are and deal with them. What if you are caught in that close range in a mirrored position, woulc you try to switch at that range to a crossed stance because you prefer it? I hope not, because you are in striking range and unless you are good you are going to get socked (but, from your vids you are good, so you can aford to take the risk more than others :) )

At a further range, you can set up however you like base on your stratagy. But what if you DO find yourself in this mirrored setup at this range, not by your choice - do you just not enter your opponent because it is bad?

Jonathan

(PS, great post, hopefully you do not look at my disagreement as anything more than my POV from my experiences - I respect your bringing this up as well as posting a video to support your views. I look forward to the dialog and your responses - maybe we can have a good WC discussion here for once!!)

[Ali. R]

Interesting post Ali!

(PS, great post, hopefully you do not look at my disagreement as anything more than my POV from my experiences - I respect your bringing this up as well as posting a video to support your views. I look forward to the dialog and your responses - maybe we can have a good WC discussion here for once!!)


I total agree with what you are saying, but you have too understand one with the most direct and subtle movements always take the line first, especially when this is in mind; “attacking the attack”… As one can see from the clip when defending from a mirrored stance the power shot is way over worked.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feLvs4-q6tE


By the way great post…

Take care,

Ali Rahim.

[sihing]

A subtle slam at TWC? How nice. I wonder why orthodox boxers have trouble fighting south paws. Everyone should do what works for them personally. At our school we fight using a parallel and cross stances. If it ain't broke don't fix it. Don't live in a box. And for those WC purists, I have video of a WC Sifu in HK showing how YM taught him how to fight on the blindside. So obivously Yip Man taught that as well.
For the real fighters, who cares anyway? No matter where you put your foot, a win is a win.

Boxer's are much less concerned with controlling the lines of an opponent, but rather more concerned with strictly hitting them, so yeah if that is your only goal then you could get away with blindside mirror fighting, with your foot outside the lead foot. You can say what you want about my TWC skills (since neither you or Victor have ever met me or trained with me to be able to assess them), when I tried this tactic or strategy on the guys in LA at Sifu Gary's school, it was easily defeated with proper facing and them eating my space and attacking my centerline. When you step outside the lead foot, you are chasing hands persay because you are stepping outside of the body line, that is why alot of your video's and Cheung's too, involve going around in circles. To me, at this point in my WC development, you can use this strategy is you want, and it may give you a slight positional advantage for a second or two, but it is not an adviseable one to use as you have done little to effect your opponents center axis or balance in anyway, thereby allowing him to easily maintain his facing and ability to follow you while you try to stay on the outside using two hands against one.

On your closing the gap video, you use the wu/bong trap to the outside and mirror stepping position to close the gap and control the lead bridge. When you do this your setting yourself up to be trapped as your two hands are underneath his one and can be controlled easier when the distance is right (an old TWC student of mine tries this all the time when we play at chi sau, and he loses everytime because his structure is too weak to handle the counter I give him, I eat his space and use my structure to off balance him, while covering his hands and hitting). At the range you demonstrated it at, you will have little control of my arm or structure/balance (maybe further in you would have more success, I used to like to use this method when the guy had his arms bent in and closer to his body, thereby pinning his arms against himself with the wu/bong, and then stepping in). IMO it is not something to do and I wouldn't teach it to my students, but we are lucky to be living in the countries we do and are free to do what we please and believe in what we want to.

This is not a personal attack on you, or Victor or TWC, just a discussion and in this case a difference in opinion.

By the way I loved the old footage of Cheung in NYC back in 84', that was good stuff.

James

[YungChun]

Who stays in any particular "position" when fighting? I would call this dead footwork.. If you are constantly making adjustments and attempting to work your leg/foot postion into his in order to whack his structure then I can't see how anyone is going to "stay" in any particular "stance" for very long if at all..

[Phil Redmond]

Who stays in any particular "position" when fighting? I would call this dead footwork.. If you are constantly making adjustments and attempting to work your leg/foot postion into his in order to whack his structure then I can't see how anyone is going to "stay" in any particular "stance" for very long if at all..
EXACTLTY. I do what works for me when sparring boxers with boxing gloves and with martial artists with MMA gloves. Why should I try to fix what isn't broken. I think I said this before but I will again. I'd NEVER teach what I can't pull off myself.

Sihing with regards to boxers closing lines. Some do. We have boxers at our school and one is a pro. Also, I never said anything about your skills personally. I don't even know you.

[Knifefighter]

We have boxers at our school and one is a pro. .

Phil,
How many times have you geared up and sparred with him?

[k gledhill]

its hard to discuss mobility and responses etc..in words , thanks for showing your videos...
One day i can take a video of me and save a thousand words, :D

[sihing]

its hard to discuss mobility and responses etc..in words , thanks for showing your videos...
One day i can take a video of me and save a thousand words, :D

Exactly:)....

[nschmelzer]

Interesting thread. Thanks for all the posts. For me, I don't care what stance the other guy uses. It does not matter. I waste time worrying about and responding to the other guy's stance. I need to stay focused on entry and controlling the lead elbow and center. That's just my point of view.

[sihing]

EXACTLTY. I do what works for me when sparring boxers with boxing gloves and with martial artists with MMA gloves. Why should I try to fix what isn't broken. I think I said this before but I will again. I'd NEVER teach what I can't pull off myself.

Sihing with regards to boxers closing lines. Some do. We have boxers at our school and one is a pro. Also, I never said anything about your skills personally. I don't even know you.


If it works for you, then that is great:), for me, when I personally tried it against other VT practitioners it didn't. That doesn't mean the strategy is invalid or can't be used, it is just a low percentage thing. Sometimes you find yourself in positions in a fight that are not preferred but you end up there anyways, so it is nice to know what to do when in that position, which is something easily taught.

James

[sihing]

Interesting thread. Thanks for all the posts. For me, I don't care what stance the other guy uses. It does not matter. I waste time worrying about and responding to the other guy's stance. I need to stay focused on entry and controlling the lead elbow and center. That's just my point of view.

Actually this is a good thread simply for the fact that we are talking about something we actually can discuss, Mirrored or blindside parallel stanced fighting, Good or Bad, or somewhere in between?

Threads like this enable us to learn more about the WC system and what it is all about, even though it is a simple topic:) It sure beats the threads that involve defending the validity of the art itself as a effective training system.

James

[Phil Redmond]

Phil,
How many times have you geared up and sparred with him?
Me personally, no. He trains with Keith Mazza at the school and in a basement with some of the students in who live in Camden.NJ

[Knifefighter]

Me personally, no. He trains with Keith Mazza at the school and in a basement with some of the students in who live in Camden.NJ

Is he a teacher or a student there?

[Ali. R]

Who stays in any particular "position" when fighting? I would call this dead footwork.. If you are constantly making adjustments and attempting to work your leg/foot postion into his in order to whack his structure then I can't see how anyone is going to "stay" in any particular "stance" for very long if at all..

As long if someone moves his or her feet and not stand still, the footwork will be very much alive, and if one keep adjusting their distance and feet they cloud easily remain in the same stance… Remember the concept is negative space,, (no wasted movement) and if one looks at the clip very closely, one will easily see where the movement is wasted…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feLvs4-q6tE

Nice too here from you again YungChun…

Ali Rahim.

[Ali. R]

its hard to discuss mobility and responses etc..in words , thanks for showing your videos...
One day i can take a video of me and save a thousand words, :D

Hey man thanks,

I guess it not that hard for me, because I experienced every thing that I’m saying first hand as a pro fighter as well… When I make a thread I will never cross myself up… If I don’t know, I will sit my a$$ down and just listen…

Ali Rahim.

[YungChun]

As long if someone moves his or her feet and not stand still, the footwork will be very much alive, and if one keep adjusting their distance and feet they cloud easily remain in the same stance… Remember the concept is negative space,, (no wasted movement) and if one looks at the clip very closely, one will easily see where the movement is wasted…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feLvs4-q6tE

Nice too here from you again YungChun…

Ali Rahim.
I don't see the system or folks in real fighting staying in a particular stance very long or very often...

The system itself does not teach static positions, yes you can have a dynamic front stance, but that position must change and adapt in the moment.. That means, lead changes, at times no real lead, at times things in between.

If the idea is to stay or supposed to stay in one general position/stance throughout the entire fight (that takes more than a second) then I don't see that as something to shoot for, or work toward as a goal.. Even the classical expression of the system has no favored side..

Superior position via body movement is something that changes, is more dynamic from range to range, moment to moment and the footwork in the system and in real life reflects that--or should..

[Ali. R]

I don't see the system or folks in real fighting staying in a particular stance very long or very often...

The system itself does not teach static positions, yes you can have a dynamic front stance, but that position must change and adapt in the moment.. That means, lead changes, at times no real lead, at times things in between.

If the idea is to stay or supposed to stay in one general position/stance throughout the entire fight (that takes more than a second) then I don't see that as something to shoot for, or work toward as a goal.. Even the classical expression of the system has no favored side..

Superior position via body movement is something that changes, is more dynamic from range to range, moment to moment and the footwork in the system and in real life reflects that--or should..



Oh!! I see now,

YungChun, I see we’re are talking two different things… Never once did I mention footwork in the clip or in the beginning of this thread, (to much thought patterns) but only pivoting, in other words moving stance… Pivoting is adjusting ones stance, in which can be done quite easily in the terms of instinctive reacting to reaction (no thought patterns)…

Take care,

Ali Rahim.

[sihing]

I don't see the system or folks in real fighting staying in a particular stance very long or very often...

The system itself does not teach static positions, yes you can have a dynamic front stance, but that position must change and adapt in the moment.. That means, lead changes, at times no real lead, at times things in between.

If the idea is to stay or supposed to stay in one general position/stance throughout the entire fight (that takes more than a second) then I don't see that as something to shoot for, or work toward as a goal.. Even the classical expression of the system has no favored side..

Superior position via body movement is something that changes, is more dynamic from range to range, moment to moment and the footwork in the system and in real life reflects that--or should..

Another thing to remember, is that having superior position is not always the best thing to have if you have no control of your opponent. I can have the best position on my opponent, but if he is still able to react to my movement and attack as well, then what good is superior position. From the blindside as demo'd in TWC clips, and in Ali's clip, you temporarily have a superior position, having your two hands against his one, but the target area is also limited. When I was using this method, some would just lean away, use their arm to cover their ribs and retreat and try to reface me. When you don't have access to either the front or back of the persons body, your hitting is limited. In Sifu Lam's system, this is a position used mostly for hiding away from your opponents strikes and for closing/standing grappling/takedown techniques and strategies. Fighting for sure is not about static stances, but rather about being able to your use your tools while moving around and staying stable, all at the same time, so your punching power is always available. From my point of view, once you have secured the proper range, you will have need less footwork, and only small adjustments. The further away you are, the more footwork you need. TWC IMO is long range/triangle WC system, therefore less stability in the stance is needed, requiring more mobility instead.


James

[JPinAZ]

I total agree with what you are saying, but you have too understand one with the most direct and subtle movements always take the line first, especially when this is in mind; “attacking the attack”… As one can see from the clip when defending from a mirrored stance the power shot is way over worked.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feLvs4-q6tE


By the way great post…

Take care,

Ali Rahim.

I hear what you are saying. IMO, you set up this line, even ever so slightly/subtly prior to contact. If you 'just mirror' in pure sense (exact matching as if looking in a mirror) it gives no pre contact advantage for the person initiating the attack. So, they have to sidestep and give up space to try to find an angle. If you set a slight angle to give the advatage and then attack, you already have a superior angle/position, so no need for the aditional sidestep as in the video for the attacker.

From my POV, the attacker didn't even challenge your center or structure, so he gave you the time/space to do what you did. What I mean is, he never really addressed the bridge. I train this another way in that my goal is to take the defenders structure, space and timing away on entry, at first contact.

Of course no one is right/wrong here, just different perspectives :)

[YungChun]

Another thing to remember, is that having superior position is not always the best thing to have if you have no control of your opponent.

So if you don't have control then inferior is better?

What are you working for in movement?


I can have the best position on my opponent, but if he is still able to react to my movement and attack as well, then what good is superior position.

So if you can't take advantage of your superior position then are you going to take advantage of a worse position?


From the blindside as demo'd in TWC clips, and in Ali's clip, you temporarily have a superior position, having your two hands against his one, but the target area is also limited.

So a superior position is limiting?

Then how is it superior?



When I was using this method, some would just lean away, use their arm to cover their ribs and retreat and try to reface me.

Right.. They were working to a superior position from a worse position while you apparently did not take advantage of whatever position you had.


When you don't have access to either the front or back of the persons body, your hitting is limited.

I guess that would depend on what kind of "hitting" you are trying to do and where..

Moreover it would depend on what you plan to do from your "superior position" some might try to make it even more superior by breaking them down and preventing or limiting their ability to recover..

Let's see what Kevin thinks about flanks being problematic..


In Sifu Lam's system, this is a position used mostly for hiding away from your opponents strikes and for closing/standing grappling/takedown techniques and strategies.

Gary often talks about using flanks as I recall.. Something often seen in the system..and I am not talking about Blind Side whatever.

[Ali. R]

I hear what you are saying. IMO, you set up this line, even ever so slightly/subtly prior to contact. If you 'just mirror' in pure sense (exact matching as if looking in a mirror) it gives no pre contact advantage for the person initiating the attack. So, they have to sidestep and give up space to try to find an angle. If you set a slight angle to give the advatage and then attack, you already have a superior angle/position, so no need for the aditional sidestep as in the video for the attacker.

From my POV, the attacker didn't even challenge your center or structure, so he gave you the time/space to do what you did. What I mean is, he never really addressed the bridge. I train this another way in that my goal is to take the defenders structure, space and timing away on entry, at first contact.

Of course no one is right/wrong here, just different perspectives :)



You’re right on point!!!

I knew that was coming, wondering what took so long…

How about this, I’ll post a clip of a fourth degree black belt trying too my knock my block off by stepping to the outside, I mean really give it his best shot, hooks and all... I hope I don’t have too draw blood for you guys…

Ali Rahim.

[sihing]

So if you don't have control then inferior is better?

What are you working for in movement?

So if you can't take advantage of your superior position then are you going to take advantage of a worse position?

So a superior position is limiting?

Then how is it superior?


Right.. They were working to a superior position from a worse position while you apparently did not take advantage of whatever position you had.

I guess that would depend on what kind of "hitting" you are trying to do and where..

Moreover it would depend on what you plan to do from your "superior position" some might try to make it even more superior by breaking them down and preventing or limiting their ability to recover..

Let's see what Kevin thinks about flanks being problematic..

Gary often talks about using flanks as I recall.. Something often seen in the system..and I am not talking about Blind Side whatever.

Superior position is in relation to your opponents weapons, when you flank or blindside, the idea is to have more weapons available to use then the other guy & be further away from his other side weapon, that's why I use that terminology. That is the idea behind TWC blindside theory, and yes it is in Sifu Lam's/WSL system as well, they just don't call it blindside, and because of the different structure/body engine used, it is applied differently than TWC.
Basically for me I'd rather be more in front of my opponent, and make him not face me, than for me to set myself up in a position with the same benefit, do you get my drift. In the stuff I am learning now we do this and more. I like to use the example of a toy spinning top, when you touch that toy while it is spinning, your finger is automatically deflected to the side, away from it's center, this is what I think we are doing when people engage our arms while we are hitting them. Our Center Axis stays where it is, and we make them move to the side.

James

[Liddel]

When i want to lay out some knee stomps or low leg kicks i find a mirrored stance helps due to two simple facts - distance and timing...

Overall im with YungChun, constantly moving changing - so both stances are prefered by me and are dictated by what im given at any specific time.

Both have thier advantages IME.

DREW

[JPinAZ]

Another thing to remember, is that having superior position is not always the best thing to have if you have no control of your opponent. I can have the best position on my opponent, but if he is still able to react to my movement and attack as well, then what good is superior position.

I agree with this 100% - you are speaking the words I am trying too! (but maybe from a different POV) From watching the video, I feel the attacker gives up this position when he side steps as he enters - giving up that advatage.


From the blindside as demo'd in TWC clips, and in Ali's clip, you temporarily have a superior position, having your two hands against his one, but the target area is also limited.

Speaking in regard to the clips (since I have no exp. with TWC) I don't see the issue as the target area being limited, but not taking advatage of the position because of too much footwork (see above comment)


..From my point of view, once you have secured the proper range, you will have need less footwork, and only small adjustments. The further away you are, the more footwork you need. TWC IMO is long range/triangle WC system, therefore less stability in the stance is needed, requiring more mobility instead.

James

I agree with the first 2 sentences without a doubt. Not sure what you are meaning by the TWC referrence, can you give examples? Does the TWC referrence imply that it goes against the first 2 sentences, or doesn't fit well with those theories? (not trying to judge TWC or anything else, just looking for further dialog from your exp.)

[sihing]

When i want to lay out some knee stomps or low leg kicks i find a mirrored stance helps due to two simple facts - distance and timing...

Overall im with YungChun, constantly moving changing - so both stances are prefered by me and are dictated by what im given at any specific time.

Both have thier advantages IME.

DREW

When your mirrored facing with your opponent, do you step inside or outside of his lead foot, when you have a choice that is.

James

[JPinAZ]

You’re right on point!!!

I knew that was coming, wondering what took so long…

How about this, I’ll post a clip of a fourth degree black belt trying too my knock my block off by stepping to the outside, I mean really give it his best shot, hooks and all... I hope I don’t have too draw blood for you guys…

Ali Rahim.

haha, you aren't training hard enough if there isn't at least a little blood once in a while :) Now, if he's stepping to the outside while trying to do those things, it goes against WC principles as I see them and still proves your point. But I look forward to the demo none-the-less, I always enjoy your clips :)

Back on point. Ok, if you agree with my previous statement, then could you see how it might be possible for the 'mirrored stance attack' to work in some fashion if the space, structure, etc are taken away from you on the entry? (basically, without the side-step, and using forward energy and attacking your CL straight away from the slightly 'superior' position)

Jonathan

[Liddel]

When your mirrored facing with your opponent, do you step inside or outside of his lead foot, when you have a choice that is.

James

Gernerally speaking.....Attacking = inside, Defending = outside. Especially with bigger guys.

What type of action am i given, straight - round - high - low ?
How wide is his stance ?

Theres a lot to consider and while i think about it, i find it funny how it all just naturally happens when facing someone :rolleyes:

:D
DREW

[sihing]

Gernerally speaking.....Attacking = inside, Defending = outside. Especially with bigger guys.

What type of action am i given, straight - round - high - low ?
How wide is his stance ?

Theres a lot to consider and while i think about it, i find it funny how it all just naturally happens when facing someone :rolleyes:

:D
DREW

Yes there is lots that can happen of course in the midst of it all. It's cool that we can talk generalities with the consideration that things can be adapted and change with different strategies and considerations.

James

[JPinAZ]

Yes there is lots that can happen of course in the midst of it all. It's cool that we can talk generalities with the consideration that things can be adapted and change with different strategies and considerations.

James

James what is your view now vs. the past when you find yourself in a mirrored position against your opponent - how do you enter (footwork, position, etc)?
What do you look for and why/how has it changes?

IMO the foot inside/outside thing when entering in a matched position is also based on initial angle, opponents setup (arms in tight or out wide) and a bunch of other factors. Agree/disagree?

[Ali. R]

Back on point. Ok, if you agree with my previous statement, then could you see how it might be possible for the 'mirrored stance attack' to work in some fashion if the space, structure, etc are taken away from you on the entry? (basically, without the side-step, and using forward energy and attacking your CL straight away from the slightly 'superior' position)

Jonathan


Oh I really can see your point, but if you always face the attack you shouldn’t have that problem… Stay with what comes and follow with what goes, just face it, jam it, wedge it and slice it, but don’t run away when bridge contact is made, because valuable time will be lost …

Ali Rahim.

[YungChun]

Superior position is in relation to your opponents weapons, when you flank or blindside, the idea is to have more weapons available to use then the other guy & be further away from his other side weapon, that's why I use that terminology.

Okay.. That's one definition..

However, TWC Blind Side and the standard flanking done in most systems is not the same thing IMO..

Almost all the moves in WCK have some angle in them.. Most WCK flanking moves IMO use a very small flank.. Sometimes larger sometimes barely noticeable..

Gary's: "Don't let his gun point at you" thing is very different than the TWC Blindside thing and really runs through all of WCK..


Basically for me I'd rather be more in front of my opponent, and make him not face me

Standing right in front of a good fighter without moving requires superior attributes IMO, not the least of which is a strong chin.. :D

Most fighters don't simply stand in front of their opponent.. Some do, but IMO WCK does not teach this idea. Rather IMO the system teaches us to use small flanks that move off the line and then in.. But we are leaving out a lot of specifics..

Once at range you can try to turn your opponent.. But what happens if your opponent is stronger and resists? Then he may turn you or do something else.. So staying in one place and then taking a flank can be done in more ways than just by moving your body.. He may move his own body, you may move your body, you may move his or any combination..

Moving your body on the outside and moving your body on the inside have completely different functions, not the least of which is base destruction, or taking out his base, and or taking a position where his balance is unsure.


than for me to set myself up in a position with the same benefit, do you get my drift. In the stuff I am learning now we do this and more. I like to use the example of a toy spinning top, when you touch that toy while it is spinning, your finger is automatically deflected to the side, away from it's center, this is what I think we are doing when people engage our arms while we are hitting them. Our Center Axis stays where it is, and we make them move to the side.

Try "just" turning your sihings and you know what will happen.. If you think in terms of dealing with a strong opponent who is fast, then staying on his line of fire during the entry phase IMO isn't the best way.. Again Gary's, don't let his gun aim at you makes this clear and is consistent with the concepts in the system..


You’re right on point!!!
How about this, I’ll post a clip of a fourth degree black belt trying too my knock my block off by stepping to the outside
It's not just about some guy stepping to the outside with his foot in the wrong place.. It's just as much about timing, rhythm, feints, fakes, setups, MOVEMENT and so on..

"Just do it" against a good boxer.. Anyone can KO some **** who just walks in with a half assed SDA--that you know is coming--no matter what color belt he has on..

[sihing]

James what is your view now vs. the past when you find yourself in a mirrored position against your opponent - how do you enter (footwork, position, etc)?
What do you look for and why/how has it changes?

IMO the foot inside/outside thing when entering in a matched position is also based on initial angle, opponents setup (arms in tight or out wide) and a bunch of other factors. Agree/disagree?


Will answer when I get back from class:)

J

[Liddel]

Yes there is lots that can happen of course in the midst of it all. It's cool that we can talk generalities with the consideration that things can be adapted and change with different strategies and considerations.
James

Thinking about knifing a head shot with a Pak and/or Guarn if i want to land a good body shot stepping to the outside is the best option for me cause i can immediatly follow with a turn and the outside hand...

If im looking for the head shot and have the space, the inside is the natural action for me.

My reactions are based on whats good for the moment but also where can i go from here. I love Elbows - love em - and for me having the leg support the action gives it more power / follow through... so its inside all the way.

Its not a good way to move into clinch range for me - with the lead leg outside, i must have the lead leg supporting my dominant hand so it can take more preasure/ weight.

Im 6 foot.... but only 155 pounds :)

:rolleyes:
DREW

[Knifefighter]

You’re right on point!!!

I knew that was coming, wondering what took so long…

How about this, I’ll post a clip of a fourth degree black belt trying too my knock my block off by stepping to the outside, I mean really give it his best shot, hooks and all... I hope I don’t have too draw blood for you guys…

Ali Rahim.

Yeah, please do that. At least then there will be one clip of a WC person actaully mixing it up for real.

Of course, I won't hold my breath.

[monji112000]

Try to never mirror your opponent’s stance (he’s in a right forward stance and you’re in a left forward stance, or the other way around), its ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feLvs4-q6tE


In a real fight you don't have time to see what foot he has forward and what foot you have forward. (well maybe sometimes you do but I never do). The way we use our footwork is very different and how we move is also much different. I personally don't care what foot he has forward. Don't get stuck in one position. Don't get stuck in a predefined rule or classical "mess" that people create. I have yet to see a fight were two people square off ... LOL . If you are talking about a sports fight, thats completely different. I still wouldn't care personally. Ofcourse I don't like boxing footwork so... (doesn't mean I don't think its powerful I just prefer WC footwork).

[Ali. R]

It's not just about some guy stepping to the outside with his foot in the wrong place.. It's just as much about timing, rhythm, feints, fakes, setups, MOVEMENT and so on..

"Just do it" against a good boxer.. Anyone can KO some **** who just walks in with a half assed SDA--that you know is coming--no matter what color belt he has on..


So you really think I’ll get a scrub too punch in, this man has been training in Kempo for 16 years, and you’re already saying he’s no good and half ass, and have no timing or a strong sense of fighting, are you saying if he’s not wing chun or boxing he’s no good… If that’s the case, oh my goodness… I believe all arts are good and yes this man can really fight…

Well, if judgment is already in place, there is no reason for me to post the clip; I’ll stop because I’m not use too dealing with this type of energy… I don’t know about others, but I just can’t pass judgment without proof…

And I’m sorry if I offended anyone in witch I’m sure I didn’t… It’s a strong cry from making opinion to a out right judgment… Maybe you’re right and they may all suck compared to your skills, hey but that’s ok too…

Take Care,

Ali Rahim

[YungChun]

So you really think I’ll get a scrub too punch in, this man has been training in Kempo for 16 years, and you’re already saying he’s no good and half ass, and have no timing or a strong sense of fighting, are you saying if he’s not wing chun or boxing he’s no good… If that’s the case, oh my goodness… I believe all arts are good and yes this man can really fight…

Well, if judgment is already in place, there is no reason for me to post the clip; I’ll stop because I’m not use too dealing with this type of energy… I don’t know about others, but I just can’t pass judgment without proof…

And I’m sorry if I offended anyone in witch I’m sure I didn’t… It’s a strong cry from making opinion to a out right judgment… Maybe you’re right and they may all suck compared to your skills, hey but that’s ok too…

Take Care,

Ali Rahim
It's not about sucking..

It's about doing a prearranged move on someone who knows what you want when you want it..

IMO the concept is an artificial construct so by defintion the only way to demo it would be to use someone who actually uses this method as part of their natural game and fighting/sparring that person.. Having a buddy do it, in a demo--no matter how "good" he is, doesn't have the needed elements to measure.

A better way to go is simply use this strategy yourself against someone else who is just fighting--and show that.

[Knifefighter]

Well, if judgment is already in place, there is no reason for me to post the clip; I’ll stop because I’m not use too dealing with this type of energy… I don’t know about others, but I just can’t pass judgment without proof…

As I thought.

[Phil Redmond]

Is he a teacher or a student there?

Hi Dale, I know it's hard for you to conceive that a pro boxer would want to learn WC but that is the case. Prince "learns" from Keith Mazza. He is a "student" at the school. He even calls Keith Sifu and me Sibak. Keith has a rep in the area. He get some of it from training the security for House of Blues. He's goes to LA, Vegas, Chicago, etc., often. That's one of the reasons I moved back east to teach while he's away. When people say that WC doesn't work I have to chuckle. Keith get's these big bouncer types that tell him that he cant' get tme out of the club if they didn't want him to. He simpy shows them that he can using WC principle. But of course these are only big bouncers and not BJJ blakcbelts. I also get to see how WC is effective when guys come in that are wrestlers, boxers, MMA people. and want to fight. So far I've personally had only one incident with a CLF guy that I told to try and hit me as hard, fast, and anyway that he could. Of course he wasn't an invincible, MMA guy but he signed up the next class. I like when people underestimate me because of my size. It's funny to me. My technique isn't perfect though. It's the heart. ;)

[Phil Redmond]

Hey Dale, I forgot to add this:
http://www.seraph.net/
http://www.seraph.net/about_keith_mazza.html
http://www.seraph.net/clients.html
Phil

[Knifefighter]

Hi Dale, I know it's hard for you to conceive that a pro boxer would want to learn WC but that is the case.

I have no problem conceiving that a pro boxer might want to add something different into his arsenal.

The reason I was asking is that many people say that boxers, BJJ blackbelts, MT fighters, etc train at their schools, when in actuality they are brought in to teach.

Why haven't you sparred with him if he trains there? Seems like kind of a missed opportunity to me.

[Phil Redmond]

I have no problem conceiving that a pro boxer might want to add something different into his arsenal.

The reason I was asking is that many people say that boxers, BJJ blackbelts, MT fighters, etc train at their schools, when in actuality they are brought in to teach.

Why haven't you sparred with him if he trains there? Seems like kind of a missed opportunity to me.
It's a scheduling (sp)? thing. I have two days off a week. Also, Prince is out of town sometimes so he's not there always. I will start going to Camden where the guys do train though. Also, I've had experience with boxers before. If that's what you're alluding to. When I was kickboxing Yoel Judah was my trainer. His son is Zab Judah. Yoel was the US or American kickboxing. I forget which one. I'll have to check. Plus some undergound bareknuckle fights in Chinatown. Keith has done a few himself. I know Keith from Chinatown so I can vouch for his fights. I'm no bad a$$ but I get my props from people who know me.

[Knifefighter]

Also, I've had experience with boxers before. If that's what you're alluding to. .

I wasn't alluding to anything. I'm just surprised that you haven't jumped at the opportunity to work out with a world class boxer.

[sihing]

James what is your view now vs. the past when you find yourself in a mirrored position against your opponent - how do you enter (footwork, position, etc)?
What do you look for and why/how has it changes?

IMO the foot inside/outside thing when entering in a matched position is also based on initial angle, opponents setup (arms in tight or out wide) and a bunch of other factors. Agree/disagree?


In the past with my TWC training, I preferred the mirrored position over the cross arm. I have fast hands and footwork so I was usually able to get to the blindside and land a few blows before they could re face. Maintaining that position is impossible, if someone wants to turn and face you they will. Plus you have to be ready for the spinning techniques and the fact that the guy might just step into you and take your space.

With the method I train in now, when I end up mirrored position with my lead foot on the outside of his, I'm alot tighter in now than I used to be and am more able to affect their structure and balance due to the different body mechanics that I use now, and when people start to retreat I step forward with the rear foot to get inside there footwork and eat their space to control their centers, rather than maintaining the outside foot position.

Gaining entry is hard to explain on a forum like this, since so many things can happen in the process, too many variables going on at once. Basically for me at my stage of development, I prefer not to use WC structure outside of punching range at all, but more of a natural almost side on stance. WC is range specific when at it's most effective. I have good kicks, and long reach, so I can use jabs, and kicking techniques when out there, but my goal is to get inside their space and use my engine where it works best. If I want to, I can go back to my TWC training and use that stuff as well for outside fighting, which entails using a side neutral stance with Man/wu sau outstretched to face an opponent.

Right now I more interested in learning the inside stuff that this method teaches and developing my engine and hitting to a high level. We will see what my coach wants to do after that. I have lots to learn still, and that is a good feeling:)

James

[Ali. R]

It's not about sucking..

It's about doing a prearranged move on someone who knows what you want when you want it..

IMO the concept is an artificial construct so by defintion the only way to demo it would be to use someone who actually uses this method as part of their natural game and fighting/sparring that person.. Having a buddy do it, in a demo--no matter how "good" he is, doesn't have the needed elements to measure.
A better way to go is simply use this strategy yourself against someone else who is just fighting--and show that.


Once again judgment… Who said anything about prearranged this, or prearranged that… I said he would try knocking my block off, nothing about prearranged… This is the second time you tried to putting words in my mouth… Why are you doing this? Are you not reading my post?

I see how it is now, when one wants to show ones point of view, the critics wants to see a blood match even when it’s a good sparring match, they want to see someone knocked out… But if the match is one sided, he or she picked a bum, not because one my have true talent… ****ed if you do, ****ed if you don’t… So that eliminates anyone with a little talent too prove his or her point on a clip, when his or her opponent is not knocked out…

Really convenient for those who don’t post clips, Huh…

Ali.

[Ali. R]

As I thought.

What’s the use, it want prove anything…

[YungChun]

Once again judgment…
Get over the judging..

A demo is a demo... Maybe your demos are great.. Most demos are complete BS...

The best way to show what works is to show what works against fully resisting skilled opponents who have no idea what you are trying to demo...

[Liddel]

Once again judgment… Who said anything about prearranged this, or prearranged that…

Perhaps its in relation to the vid you posted :rolleyes:

Cause thats what i thought :o ...no dis.. it is what it is...

DREW

[YungChun]

In the past with my TWC training, I preferred the mirrored position over the cross arm. I have fast hands and footwork so I was usually able to get to the blindside and land a few blows before they could re face. Maintaining that position is impossible, if someone wants to turn and face you they will.
Would have to disagree..

What happend to contact and control? What happend to structural attacks or in the simplest of terms finshing moves? If you can take the line and use the line and flank them then the idea is to use your inside tools to control do damage, steal their base and finish--of which there are many ways to do so..and IMO what the system trains, the 'high power water hose' continuity of attack once we have the line, something Gary certainly teaches..

[sihing]

Okay.. That's one definition..

However, TWC Blind Side and the standard flanking done in most systems is not the same thing IMO..

Almost all the moves in WCK have some angle in them.. Most WCK flanking moves IMO use a very small flank.. Sometimes larger sometimes barely noticeable..

Gary's: "Don't let his gun point at you" thing is very different than the TWC Blindside thing and really runs through all of WCK..

Standing right in front of a good fighter without moving requires superior attributes IMO, not the least of which is a strong chin.. :D

Most fighters don't simply stand in front of their opponent.. Some do, but IMO WCK does not teach this idea. Rather IMO the system teaches us to use small flanks that move off the line and then in.. But we are leaving out a lot of specifics..

Once at range you can try to turn your opponent.. But what happens if your opponent is stronger and resists? Then he may turn you or do something else.. So staying in one place and then taking a flank can be done in more ways than just by moving your body.. He may move his own body, you may move your body, you may move his or any combination..

Moving your body on the outside and moving your body on the inside have completely different functions, not the least of which is base destruction, or taking out his base, and or taking a position where his balance is unsure.

Try "just" turning your sihings and you know what will happen.. If you think in terms of dealing with a strong opponent who is fast, then staying on his line of fire during the entry phase IMO isn't the best way.. Again Gary's, don't let his gun aim at you makes this clear and is consistent with the concepts in the system..


It's not just about some guy stepping to the outside with his foot in the wrong place.. It's just as much about timing, rhythm, feints, fakes, setups, MOVEMENT and so on..

"Just do it" against a good boxer.. Anyone can KO some **** who just walks in with a half assed SDA--that you know is coming--no matter what color belt he has on..

I think we are talking about the samethings here Jim:confused:. Of course trying to take the facing away from someone that is experienced in using the method will be harder to do, especially if they have more experience than you. Believe it or not, there are people that are just better than you at what you do, lol. Making them not face you or using blindside concepts is just a helping tool to make things easier for you. In Sifu Lam's system, you have 0 deg fighting (straight in front of the guy), 45, 60, 90, and 120 degree fighting, with the last one meaning you are directly behind the guy (Rear Naked Choke position). According to him, 45 deg is best for hitting.

James

[Ali. R]

Get over the judging..

A demo is a demo... Maybe your demos are great.. Most demos are complete BS...

The best way to show what works is to show what works against fully resisting skilled opponents who have no idea what you are trying to demo...


How do you know if this guy knows what going too happen? I just know they fight that way… Is there something you need to get over, why the hostility? Maybe I could be wrong, I like you and your posting, hope that we be friends …

Ali.

[Phil Redmond]

I wasn't alluding to anything. I'm just surprised that you haven't jumped at the opportunity to work out with a world class boxer.
I hear you and I will for sure.

[YungChun]

How do you know if this guy knows what going too happen? I just know they fight that way… Is there something you need to get over, why the hostility?

Ali.
The only judging and hostility is what you are thinking you see...

Most folks are not into the demos.. And they will ask for evidence..

As I said maybe your "demos" are great--most are not....

I personally am not into static 'if I do this--then he can't do that' kinds of statics...

Just do your thing and don't worry too much about what people say.. If you are that easily hijacked on the web, then life can be a real biach...

[Ali. R]

Perhaps its in relation to the vid you posted :rolleyes:

Cause thats what i thought :o ...no dis.. it is what it is...

DREW

I feel you.:)

[Ali. R]

The only judging and hostility is what you are thinking you see...

Most folks are not into the demos.. And they will ask for evidence..

As I said maybe your "demos" are great--most are not....

I personally am not into static 'if I do this--then he can't do that' kinds of statics...

Just do your thing and don't worry too much about what people say.. If you are that easily hijacked on the web, then life can be a real biach...


Cool, I’m a little lost but I’m glad everything is ok…

Ali Rahim.

[JPinAZ]

In the past with my TWC training, I preferred the mirrored position over the cross arm. I have fast hands and footwork so I was usually able to get to the blindside and land a few blows before they could re face. Maintaining that position is impossible, if someone wants to turn and face you they will. Plus you have to be ready for the spinning techniques and the fact that the guy might just step into you and take your space.

With the method I train in now, when I end up mirrored position with my lead foot on the outside of his, I'm alot tighter in now than I used to be and am more able to affect their structure and balance due to the different body mechanics that I use now, and when people start to retreat I step forward with the rear foot to get inside there footwork and eat their space to control their centers, rather than maintaining the outside foot position.

Gaining entry is hard to explain on a forum like this, since so many things can happen in the process, too many variables going on at once. Basically for me at my stage of development, I prefer not to use WC structure outside of punching range at all, but more of a natural almost side on stance. WC is range specific when at it's most effective. I have good kicks, and long reach, so I can use jabs, and kicking techniques when out there, but my goal is to get inside their space and use my engine where it works best. If I want to, I can go back to my TWC training and use that stuff as well for outside fighting, which entails using a side neutral stance with Man/wu sau outstretched to face an opponent.

Right now I more interested in learning the inside stuff that this method teaches and developing my engine and hitting to a high level. We will see what my coach wants to do after that. I have lots to learn still, and that is a good feeling:)

James

Thanks for sharing, it's good to hear how others view things. And I totally understand/agree with the part I bolded in your quote.

Jonathan

[JPinAZ]

What’s the use, it want prove anything…

ahh, just show it anyway. I for one look forward in seeing it. IMO, just ignore anything that you take as negative. At least you're willing to put your stuff out there!

[Ali. R]

In a real fight you don't have time to see what foot he has forward and what foot you have forward. (well maybe sometimes you do but I never do). The way we use our footwork is very different and how we move is also much different. I personally don't care what foot he has forward. Don't get stuck in one position. Don't get stuck in a predefined rule or classical "mess" that people create. I have yet to see a fight were two people square off ... LOL . If you are talking about a sports fight, thats completely different. I still wouldn't care personally. Ofcourse I don't like boxing footwork so... (doesn't mean I don't think its powerful I just prefer WC footwork).


This is wing chun moving stance (what some may call footwork) female triangle, “Som Got Mah” reverse triangle.

Ali Rahim.

[Ali. R]

ahh, just show it anyway. I for one look forward in seeing it. IMO, just ignore anything that you take as negative. At least you're willing to put your stuff out there!

So you guys really want too see me kick a$$… That will be easy, I spar at least 12 different guys a week four has been training just as long as I have, and they are not my students…

First I will have to see if they want the clip published, I never recorded our session together sparring, never thought about it… They’ll probably trip if they knew that I was proving a point about something, and that’s why one or some of them ended up dizzy…:D

Ali Rahim.

[YungChun]

So you guys really want too see me kick a$$… That will be easy, I spar at least 12 different guys a week four has been training just as long as I have, and they are not my students…
Sounds good.. What do the others do, are they also WCK or something else?

[Knifefighter]

So you guys really want too see me kick a$$… That will be easy, I spar at least 12 different guys a week four has been training just as long as I have, and they are not my students…

First I will have to see if they want the clip published, I never recorded our session together sparring, never thought about it… They’ll probably trip if they knew that I was proving a point about something, and that’s why one or some of them ended up dizzy…:D

Ali Rahim.

Ah, the pre-qualifing, other people's responsibility, backpedalling strategy.

[JPinAZ]

So you guys really want too see me kick a$$… That will be easy, I spar at least 12 different guys a week four has been training just as long as I have, and they are not my students…

First I will have to see if they want the clip published, I never recorded our session together sparring, never thought about it… They’ll probably trip if they knew that I was proving a point about something, and that’s why one or some of them ended up dizzy…:D

Ali Rahim.

haha, man, you don't have to prove anything to anybody. If you don't do it, no big deal to me. I just like seeing your vids.

[Ali. R]

Ah, the pre-qualifing, other people's responsibility, backpedalling strategy.

See, took the words right out of my mouth,, “BLOOD SPORT”... Like I said it’s no use…

Ali Rahim.

[Ali. R]

Sounds good.. What do the others do, are they also WCK or something else?

Mostly real good kick boxers and a mix martial artist… I’m not sure what they do in their fighting style there are just good in what they do, h*ll they invited me too join them and I incepted…

Ali Rahim.

[Ali. R]

haha, man, you don't have to prove anything to anybody. If you don't do it, no big deal to me. I just like seeing your vids.


:):) That's cool.

Ali Rahim.

[Ali. R]

When one makes bridge contact he should be stealing ones balance while hitting, if you’re good you should have ones balance right from the start…

The main reason why most gets beat to the punch (going outside) each time is, by stepping away from your opponents center on attack, if your opponents simply react to your reaction by making one subtle movement into your center, he will take your balance first…

By stepping away or out, you will eventually have too step back or in too steal one’s balance… As I said earlier; the one with the most direct and subtle movements always take the line first, especially when this is in mind; “attacking the attack”…


Ali Rahim.

[Phil Redmond]

I still say that orthodox fighters have a hard time with southpaws and I don't even know why I'm wasting my time with this but . . .

I showed the clip that started this thread at begginers class today. They even knew that no one's just going to stand there while the other guy turns to hit you. They understand that unless you finish it right then and there that there is always a counter to a technique and a counter to that. They also know to hit and move and to not wait to be countered. There many variables that can happen with any given techinque. Here is a "basic" example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgIXqSBYszo

[sanjuro_ronin]

Rule of thumb, fight your fight, not your opponents.
If you like stance A and it mirrors your opponents, changing it is playing HIS game.

A person/fighter should be able to fight from there "natural" position regardless of what the opponent is showing them.

[Knifefighter]

Mostly real good kick boxers and a mix martial artist… I’m not sure what they do in their fighting style there are just good in what they do, h*ll they invited me too join them and I incepted…

Ali Rahim.

Incepted??!!!!!!! :rolleyes::eek::confused::confused::eek::rolleyes:

[CFT]

Incepted??!!!!!!! :rolleyes::eek::confused::confused::eek::rolleyes: That's an affirmatory ;)

[Ali. R]

How educational and enlightening that your post are to this subject gentlemen, good job!

Ali Rahim.

[Ali. R]

Rule of thumb, fight your fight, not your opponents.
If you like stance A and it mirrors your opponents, changing it is playing HIS game.

A person/fighter should be able to fight from there "natural" position regardless of what the opponent is showing them.


Now that’s true,

As said: If you’re right-handed, fight right-handed, if your left-handed fight left–handed…

[YungChun]

Now that’s true,

As said: If you’re right-handed, fight right-handed, if your left-handed fight left–handed…
Crap..

I'm left handed but I fight right handed.. :eek:

I would prefer to fight both handed tho.. :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

As said: If you’re right-handed, fight right-handed, if your left-handed fight left–handed…

Uh...well, I mean is that if it feels more natural to fight orthodox, then fight othodox, if you prefer strong side lead, then do that, just don't change it based on what your opponent does.

[Ali. R]

Crap..

I'm left handed but I fight right handed.. :eek:

I would prefer to fight both handed tho.. :)



I’m glad we all agree:

Just as I said in the opening of this thread;

"But in most wing chun systems they fight dominate hand up front, so adjust accordantly"…

[Phil Redmond]

Uh...well, I mean is that if it feels more natural to fight orthodox, then fight othodox, if you prefer strong side lead, then do that, just don't change it based on what your opponent does.
You have to "adapt" to what you opponent does. If it means changing your stance then you'd better be able to do. Movements in the Wing Chun forms are done equally on both sides.
We teach students to be equally proficient on both sides. I can show you better than I can tell you.
Hopefully I'll see you in T.O.

[Ali. R]

You have to "adapt" to what you opponent does. If it means changing your stance then you'd better be able to do. Movements in the Wing Chun forms are done equally on both sides.
We teach students to be equally proficient on both sides. I can show you better than I can tell you.
Hopefully I'll see you in T.O.


How so true, but remember to take the shortest rout in…

As I said earlier:

The main reason why most get beat to the punch (going outside) each time is, by stepping away from your opponents center on attack, if your opponent simply react to your reaction by making one subtle movement into your center, he will take your balance first…

By stepping away or out, you will eventually have too step back or in too steal one’s balance… As I said earlier; the one with the most direct and subtle movements always take the line first, especially when this is in mind; “attacking the attack”…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feLvs4-q6tE


Ali Rahim.

[sihing]

You have to "adapt" to what you opponent does. If it means changing your
stance then you'd better be able to do. Movements in the Wing Chun forms
are done equally on both sides. We teach students to be equally
proficient on both sides. I can show you better than I can tell you.
Hopefully I'll see you in T.O.

Off course you have to be able to fight in any position, the question is, if you have a choice, do you step in a mirrored position and away from your opponents center axis, or into his center axis x-armed? It seems when I was training in TWC, and when I view TWC material, written or video, they emphazise blindside fighting and stepping away most of the time. Even in those recent Cheung video's you posted, with him and Sayah, usually he moves away from Joe when he is attacked, not into him effecting his balance and centerline. e.g. 1)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4qKtjk6JHk
2) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=162NkojmIvI
both instances he steps away from Joe on most occasions, whether attacking or defending. To me when defending and stepping away, you are using distance and space to defend, not structure or feeling, plus it is more movement to move back then have to move in again to regain position. WC is close quarters, why go in & out of range?

I agree Phil, that this stuff could be shown in person to one another much easier than here, that is why we are limited in our discussions here, even if video is involved:) And again, this is nothing personal, just a discussion on why things are done the way they are, trying to be non political here and being honest with what I see.

James

[sanjuro_ronin]

You have to "adapt" to what you opponent does. If it means changing your stance then you'd better be able to do. Movements in the Wing Chun forms are done equally on both sides.
We teach students to be equally proficient on both sides. I can show you better than I can tell you.
Hopefully I'll see you in T.O.

Adapting is fine as long as you don't play into your opponents strengths

[Ali. R]

Adapting is fine as long as you don't play into your opponents strengths


OMG, that’s a great post, I just love it…:D:):D:cool:

Ali Rahim.

[sihing]

Adapting is fine as long as you don't play into your opponents strengths

That's fine, but how do you know what your opponents strengths are when you never met the man before and you know nothing about him, like in a random situation on the street? What I like about WC, is that it is universal and based upon my movement and also the biomechanics of your opponents movements (I learn to make myself structurally strong, and ready to pounce, while being setup to attack his power generation points and the weak structure areas on him). The problem is I still have to be able to get the job done, which require lots of training and testing with your training partners and others, sitting around thinking about won't do it, "To know and not do, is not to know". Nothing comes easy:)

James

P.S. I know already Terence, that you think this is all fantasy thinking, and I realize that I may not be able to do this against all fighters, lol. Sometimes the other guy is so good it doesn't matter what you do, they are still just a better, more effective fighter than yourself. That is when the baseball bat comes into play:)

[sanjuro_ronin]

That's fine, but how do you know what your opponents strengths are when you never met the man before and you know nothing about him, like in a random situation on the street? What I like about WC, is that it is universal and based upon my movement and also the biomechanics of your opponents movements (I learn to make myself structurally strong, and ready to pounce, while being setup to attack his power generation points and the weak structure areas on him). The problem is I still have to be able to get the job done, which require lots of training and testing with your training partners and others, sitting around thinking about won't do it, "To know and not do, is not to know". Nothing comes easy

The whole point of "fighting YOUR fight" is that we DON'T know the other persons strengths.
I train to fight "both ways", makes no difference to me, used to drive my boxing coaches crazy.

[sihing]

The whole point of "fighting YOUR fight" is that we DON'T know the other persons strengths.
I train to fight "both ways", makes no difference to me, used to drive my boxing coaches crazy.

Sanjoro,

I may be heading down your way soon to share some WC with people I know down there, sort of a mini seminar, it would be cool to meet up. If and when it happens I will let you know:)

James

[sanjuro_ronin]

Sanjoro,

I may be heading down your way soon to share some people I know down there, sort of a mini seminar, it would be cool to meet up. If and when it happens I will let you know:)

James

Sounds good to me, always looking to get my ass kicked :)

[sihing]

Sounds good to me, always looking to get my ass kicked :)

Me too:).....

[sanjuro_ronin]

Me too:).....

This is how I "roll":
You a grappler?
We grapple
YOu a MT fighter?
We do MT.
WC?
We do wc.

I have found that getting beat up by someone in their speciality may not be "realistic"m but its the best way to learn about that system.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"It seems when I was training in TWC, and when I view TWC material, written or video, they emphazise blindside fighting and stepping away most of the time. Even in those recent Cheung video's you posted, with him and Sayah, usually he moves away from Joe when he is attacked, not into him effecting his balance and centerline. e.g.

1)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4qKtjk6JHk

2) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=162NkojmIvI

both instances he steps away from Joe on most occasions, whether attacking or defending. To me when defending and stepping away, you are using distance and space to defend, not structure or feeling, plus it is more movement to move back then have to move in again to regain position. WC is close quarters, why go in & out of range?" (James)


***INTERESTING comments, James...and worthy of a serious answer - especially since you studied TWC for a number of years.

Now I can tell you unequivocally that William Cheung is indeed schooled in moving into his opponent when attacked, thereby affecting his opponent's balance. I've seen him do it - and I've felt him do it to me personally on a number of occasions.

What people seem to forget is that the reputation he acquired as a top notch fighter within Yip Man's Hong Kong circles back in the day was WITH the same concepts, principles, and strategies that WSL used, or anyone else we'd care to mention.

Come in and take his space and balance away when you attack - and blast him with a barrage of punches every chance you have as you're coming in on him. Protect your centerline, attack his center, etc.

If you really want to understand what's going on you need to entertain the following:

THE TWC BLINDSIDE ATTACKING APPROACH - ALONG WITH ITS CORRESPONDING FOOTWORK....AND THE ATTACK THE OPPONENT'S CENTER OF MASS APPROACH BY CONSTANTLY TAKING HIS SPACE AWAY...

are really just two sides of one coin.

Think of the TWC methods as another way to get in safely from longer range - which may or may not be continued to the finish using the TWC stratgey - or (given the changing circumstances) - you switch completely to the COM attack with lots of space taking/unbalancing forward energy and blasting once you've gained very close quarters safely.

William Cheung obviously chose to EMPHASIZE the TWC slightly-longer-range blindside approach with it's corresponding central lines and footwork since this was virtually unheard of in wing chun circles when he did it (back in the early 80's internationally - and within his own Australian school immediately after Yip Man's death in the early 70's)...

and because it makes so much sense from longer ranges - and into the close ranges as well.

You, James...now have a very similar opportunity that I did - since you're now studying the WSL com approach. (With me it was Moy Yat). The day may come when you will take another long look at TWC and synthesize it with the WSL approach.

[Phil Redmond]

Off course you have to be able to fight in any position, the question is, if you have a choice, do you step in a mirrored position and away from your opponents center axis, or into his center axis x-armed? It seems when I was training in TWC, and when I view TWC material, written or video, they emphazise blindside fighting and stepping away most of the time. Even in those recent Cheung video's you posted, with him and Sayah, usually he moves away from Joe when he is attacked, not into him effecting his balance and centerline. e.g. 1)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4qKtjk6JHk
2) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=162NkojmIvI
both instances he steps away from Joe on most occasions, whether attacking or defending. To me when defending and stepping away, you are using distance and space to defend, not structure or feeling, plus it is more movement to move back then have to move in again to regain position. WC is close quarters, why go in & out of range?

I agree Phil, that this stuff could be shown in person to one another much easier than here, that is why we are limited in our discussions here, even if video is involved:) And again, this is nothing personal, just a discussion on why things are done the way they are, trying to be non political here and being honest with what I see.

James
We train in both defensive and offensive tactics. You see offensive in the Lei Tai fights.

[Ali. R]

William Cheung obviously chose to EMPHASIZE the TWC slightly-longer-range blindside approach with it's corresponding central lines and footwork since this was virtually unheard of in wing chun circles when he did it (back in the early 80's internationally - and within his own Australian school immediately after Yip Man's death in the early 70's)...




It may not have been in other wing chun circles, but very much so in these arts “Shaolin Kung Fu”, “Choy Li Fot”, “Tai Chi”, “Kali” and many, many other arts as well as sword play, keeping the correct distances so his or her sword can have room too move from position too position same as in “kali…

Mark 19 and 118…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iN_pP4OjQ8Y


Ali Rahim.

[sihing]

"It seems when I was training in TWC, and when I view TWC material, written or video, they emphazise blindside fighting and stepping away most of the time. Even in those recent Cheung video's you posted, with him and Sayah, usually he moves away from Joe when he is attacked, not into him effecting his balance and centerline. e.g.

1)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4qKtjk6JHk

2) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=162NkojmIvI

both instances he steps away from Joe on most occasions, whether attacking or defending. To me when defending and stepping away, you are using distance and space to defend, not structure or feeling, plus it is more movement to move back then have to move in again to regain position. WC is close quarters, why go in & out of range?" (James)


***INTERESTING comments, James...and worthy of a serious answer - especially since you studied TWC for a number of years.

Now I can tell you unequivocally that William Cheung is indeed schooled in moving into his opponent when attacked, thereby affecting his opponent's balance. I've seen him do it - and I've felt him do it to me personally on a number of occasions.

What people seem to forget is that the reputation he acquired as a top notch fighter within Yip Man's Hong Kong circles back in the day was WITH the same concepts, principles, and strategies that WSL used, or anyone else we'd care to mention.

Come in and take his space and balance away when you attack - and blast him with a barrage of punches every chance you have as you're coming in on him. Protect your centerline, attack his center, etc.

If you really want to understand what's going on you need to entertain the following:

THE TWC BLINDSIDE ATTACKING APPROACH - ALONG WITH ITS CORRESPONDING FOOTWORK....AND THE ATTACK THE OPPONENT'S CENTER OF MASS APPROACH BY CONSTANTLY TAKING HIS SPACE AWAY...

are really just two sides of one coin.

Think of the TWC methods as another way to get in safely from longer range - which may or may not be continued to the finish using the TWC stratgey - or (given the changing circumstances) - you switch completely to the COM attack with lots of space taking/unbalancing forward energy and blasting once you've gained very close quarters safely.

William Cheung obviously chose to EMPHASIZE the TWC slightly-longer-range blindside approach with it's corresponding central lines and footwork since this was virtually unheard of in wing chun circles when he did it (back in the early 80's internationally - and within his own Australian school immediately after Yip Man's death in the early 70's)...

and because it makes so much sense from longer ranges - and into the close ranges as well.

You, James...now have a very similar opportunity that I did - since you're now studying the WSL com approach. (With me it was Moy Yat). The day may come when you will take another long look at TWC and synthesize it with the WSL approach.

Good post Victor, and I appreciate the way you handled my difference of opinion, by sharing your own views on the how's and why's behind Cheung's ways and his TWC method. Before I go further, the idea in Sigung's WSL system is not to attack the CENTER OF MASS, but rather the CENTER AXIS, there is a difference, and there was a discussion about this just recently on a WSL forum. Now, regarding William Cheung, what I find interesting is that at times I do see him attacking the Center Axis, or something similiar and not the step away and come back in method from time to time in his vids. IMO, Cheung can or could get away with using his preferred method due to his speed and control of technique, the guy is fast and was very athletic in his day. TWC is definetly a Longer Triangle (to borrow a term someone shared with me;) ) WC system, meaning since TWC fights from a longer range, you need more mobility, and less stability. My understanding thru personal experience and what I have been taught, is that the closer you get inside someone's space, the less mobility you will need, with more stability needed in the stance and the need to deflect and keep the center axis still, while attacking your opponents center axis, taking the balance away from them(medium/short triangle fighting). The thing is, in my experience, the further you are away from someone, the easier it is for them to escape or counter what you are doing, simply for the reason that you cannot effect their balance to their core as well far away, you can only move their wrist or arm out of the way, chasing hands persay, which is contrary to standard WC principles.

For me, I will never forget what my first Sifu taught me, and those methods are engrained within my system till the day I die, but now I have further skills to assist me when closer in, and my thoughts today are that more realistic fighting scenerioes happen when you are closer to your opponent, while being more able to take him out and be safe at the sametime:)

James

[duende]

"It seems when I was training in TWC, and when I view TWC material, written or video, they emphazise blindside fighting and stepping away most of the time. Even in those recent Cheung video's you posted, with him and Sayah, usually he moves away from Joe when he is attacked, not into him effecting his balance and centerline. e.g.

1)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4qKtjk6JHk

2) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=162NkojmIvI

both instances he steps away from Joe on most occasions, whether attacking or defending. To me when defending and stepping away, you are using distance and space to defend, not structure or feeling, plus it is more movement to move back then have to move in again to regain position. WC is close quarters, why go in & out of range?" (James)


***INTERESTING comments, James...and worthy of a serious answer - especially since you studied TWC for a number of years.

Now I can tell you unequivocally that William Cheung is indeed schooled in moving into his opponent when attacked, thereby affecting his opponent's balance. I've seen him do it - and I've felt him do it to me personally on a number of occasions.

What people seem to forget is that the reputation he acquired as a top notch fighter within Yip Man's Hong Kong circles back in the day was WITH the same concepts, principles, and strategies that WSL used, or anyone else we'd care to mention.

Come in and take his space and balance away when you attack - and blast him with a barrage of punches every chance you have as you're coming in on him. Protect your centerline, attack his center, etc.

If you really want to understand what's going on you need to entertain the following:

THE TWC BLINDSIDE ATTACKING APPROACH - ALONG WITH ITS CORRESPONDING FOOTWORK....AND THE ATTACK THE OPPONENT'S CENTER OF MASS APPROACH BY CONSTANTLY TAKING HIS SPACE AWAY...

are really just two sides of one coin.

Think of the TWC methods as another way to get in safely from longer range - which may or may not be continued to the finish using the TWC stratgey - or (given the changing circumstances) - you switch completely to the COM attack with lots of space taking/unbalancing forward energy and blasting once you've gained very close quarters safely.

William Cheung obviously chose to EMPHASIZE the TWC slightly-longer-range blindside approach with it's corresponding central lines and footwork since this was virtually unheard of in wing chun circles when he did it (back in the early 80's internationally - and within his own Australian school immediately after Yip Man's death in the early 70's)...

and because it makes so much sense from longer ranges - and into the close ranges as well.

You, James...now have a very similar opportunity that I did - since you're now studying the WSL com approach. (With me it was Moy Yat). The day may come when you will take another long look at TWC and synthesize it with the WSL approach.

Nice positive discussion, and if I may... I would like to add my .02 from a HFY perspective.

I find Victor's statement of calling TWC "blindside" attack and TWC COM attack as two sides of the same coin interesting. As in HFY this clearly would not be the case, and in fact would clearly contradict our principle of economy of motion. Demonstrating once again, that any opinion of TWC and HFY being the same, can only come from a superficial understanding of one or both of these two WC systems.

In HFY we do not have a "blindside" attack. Instead we have Deui Ying and Jeui Ying facings. And they do not have an either/or, "other side of the coin" relationship, but rather a co-existing interdependance in amongst themselves.

In WC, many share the understanding of not moving unless you have to. In HFY, this directly translates into: we do not move unless energy dictacts that we move.

From my learning, it is paramount that a Deui Ying nature/front facing/egagement be first established. This holds true even if attacked from behind, from the shadow or what we refer to as Fau Kiu Bridging.

A HFY practioner must first bring the engagement from "outside the box" to "inside the box" so that gate/zone relationships come into focus and structure/positioning can be relied on. Anotherwards, having the the system's advantages of TSE on your side.

Furthermore, as energy is alive, it is only during this process, that a Jeui Ying facing/positioning can be born. That is... only if the oncoming energy so dictates upon engagement. To be clear, personal preference has no role here... only to restore harmony with the natures of the energies present. (what we call the "Ng Loon Ying Jong Faat" )


THEREFORE.... HFY Jeui Ying and Deui Ying are in fact both on the same side of the coin. AND.... what is on the otherside of the coin is actually "outside the box", meaning outside of our core system's principles.

To put it simply, from a HFY perspective, to imediately take a blindside attack against an opponant would not only be unwarranted energy-wise... but quite possibly dangerous if your attacker knows how to trace your energy and positioning.

:)

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Good post Victor, and I appreciate the way you handled my difference of opinion, by sharing your own views on the how's and why's behind Cheung's ways and his TWC method." (J)

***COOL.
...............................

"Before I go further, the idea in Sigung's WSL system is not to attack the CENTER OF MASS, but rather the CENTER AXIS, there is a difference, and there was a discussion about this just recently on a WSL forum." (J)

***WOULD like to hear more about what you think this means, as it is not clear from your posts what the difference is.
....................................

"Now, regarding William Cheung, what I find interesting is that at times I do see him attacking the Center Axis, or something similiar and not the step away and come back in method from time to time in his vids." (J)

***WHICH is what I was saying in my previous post.
.................................

"IMO, Cheung can or could get away with using his preferred method due to his speed and control of technique, the guy is fast and was very athletic in his day." (J)

***I FAIL to see how speed has much to do with it. Control over the opponent? Yes.
.............................

"TWC is definetly a Longer Triangle (to borrow a term someone shared with me ) WC system, meaning since TWC fights from a longer range, you need more mobility, and less stability." (J)

***FALSE reasoning, James... Of course you need stability from longer range - because it still will include contact (bridge) range. TWC works with going from long to short range in stages, ie.- what TWC calls going from non contact stage - to contact stage - to exchange stage.


And at the contact stage - but still not close enouch to land or exchange punches to hard targets - it's here that one needs stability AND the collapsible structure that bends but doesn't break - and TWC specific footwork is often a part of this.
......................................

"My understanding thru personal experience and what I have been taught, is that the closer you get inside someone's space, the less mobility you will need...." (J)

***CAN'T DISAGREE strongly enough. You always need mobility - no matter where you are. There's no such thing as always holding your ground with no fallback position. If he's 250 lbs. and 6' 5" - you better have mobility working for you at all times, my friend!
......................................

"The thing is, in my experience, the further you are away from someone, the easier it is for them to escape or counter what you are doing, simply for the reason that you cannot effect their balance to their core as well far away, you can only move their wrist or arm out of the way, chasing hands persay, which is contrary to standard WC principles." (J)

***IT'S NOT ALWAYS about affecting their balance from close STRIKING range...it could be simply about affecting their general health form a longer range punch or kick landing on a hard target - or from affecting their balance from a very close clinch range where strikes aren't going to be a factor. (Or perhaps even from on the ground).

Confining oneself to a strategy and core principles that basically only serve the needs of one side of the standing striking/kicking coin (very close infight hand striking range)...

IS NOT ENOUGH.

[Phil Redmond]

Spar/fight and see what works for you. If it works, use it. If it doesn't work, well.....

[monji112000]

attacking someones "blind side" or dead side is just common sense. The question is can you do it, he may not let you. Its like when you roll, you may not get a chance to take his back... so you should be flexible. Everyone knows about dead side, so people adjust and prevent you just like taking the back or mount.

Its just plain common sense why stand infront of the guy( so he can punch and kick you with both limbs). Most people will make it hard for you to get a side position... but if you set it up you can do it just fine.

Some people are very good at fighting in the center... you've got to be that much better.

[sihing]

***COOL.[/B]
So far so good:)


***WOULD like to hear more about what you think this means, as it is not clear from your posts what the difference is.
The COM is slightly below a person's belly button, which is nearly the geometric center of a person, whereas the central axis on the other hand is a vertical plane passing through the mass about which the body rotates (in regards to WSL thinking). Attack the COM, and you are attacking the abdomen, attack the Central Axis and you are attacking their balance and structure, thereby in essence controling them while attacking them (thx KevB:) ). **Correction on my part, instead of Center Axis my initial post should have read Central Axis**


***I FAIL to see how speed has much to do with it. Control over the opponent? Yes.
Speed in relation to trying to take someone's flank. If I move straight in on someone, that is closer and faster (economy of motion), than moving to the side of them and still trying to be in range to hit them, so speed is a factor. Cheung was lightning fast in his prime, so therefore he was more able to use this tactic and succeed with it. Not all possess his speed or abilities, so for some it is not as useful. I disagree regarding the "Control" you have from that position. You may have a temporary positional advantage (your 2 hands vs his 1), and you can obtain control of the elbow point from this position, but because you are positioned the way you are (with your opponent virtually in a side on stance facing you), you have less control than being in between his stance and effecting his Central Axis. I've learned that only controlling the elbow (as the elbow is only 1 of the 6 power points), is not always good enough and that there are easy ways out of this type of control, one of which is in the SNT form. All of this I am saying from trying it out of people. I am not saying it is something useless, just low % and less effective than some more simiplier tactics.


***FALSE reasoning, James... Of course you need stability from longer range - because it still will include contact (bridge) range. TWC works with going from long to short range in stages, ie.- what TWC calls going from non contact stage - to contact stage - to exchange stage.


And at the contact stage - but still not close enouch to land or exchange punches to hard targets - it's here that one needs stability AND the collapsible structure that bends but doesn't break - and TWC specific footwork is often a part of this.
I'm familiar with the 5 stages of contact (pre contact, contact, exchange, pursuit, retreat) and the strategies/tactics involved. TWC (as Cheung taught it at his 50th BDay celebration and in most every video and book I have read) advocates not stepping deep inside someone stance or gate, but rather staying closer to his lead foot, slightly inside of it on X arm, and even more outside of his lead foot when parallel/mirror sided. Maybe he's changed his methods or picked up on something from his previous training in "Modified WC", in the last few years I don't know. View this vid to see what I mean, here he is sparring with a boxer and exclusively using mirrored footwork constantly moving to the outside trying to get the flank, by which the boxer adjusts, forcing the two of them to travel in a cirlce, and never into one another's Center or Central Axis, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vG1WC982Ma8&feature=related . I know this is not the be all end all of TWC concept and application, but it is a true representation of what is taught and done allot in TWC. Now, concerning what you said, I did use the word "MORE" to differentiate the emphasize on Mobility and Stability. Of course you need mobility when really close in, I never said you didn't, I just said you need LESS when closer in, than if you are further away. The is always a time to adjust and react accordingly to what is going on. IMO if you already have the close in position secured, you also have control of the Central Axis, which means the other guy is recovering balance and position, not you, at least that is how I understand what I am learning now is about. With TWC, even though we did get in close, it is not nearly as close as I am doing now, as the structure is not built into the system to do that, as the facing concepts between the two arts are different (TWC vs WSL WC), in relation to hip positioning and how the feet move (WSL pivoting, TWC stepping/lifting of the feet off the ground with no pivots involved).


***CAN'T DISAGREE strongly enough. You always need mobility - no matter where you are. There's no such thing as always holding your ground with no fallback position. If he's 250 lbs. and 6' 5" - you better have mobility working for you at all times, my friend!
See above, I never said you don't need Mobility when in really close, just less, Stability and ability to use your structure and mechanics to influence your opponents Central Axis, while being able to move is built into the WSL system, not so in TWC, at least I didn't see it in my 17yrs training and researching it. I was taught that controlling the elbow (for upper body strikes) controls the balance of an opponent. Since then, I've learned there are a few more areas or points on the body that do the same thing in differing cirrcumstances.

***IT'S NOT ALWAYS about affecting their balance from close STRIKING range...it could be simply about affecting their general health form a longer range punch or kick landing on a hard target - or from affecting their balance from a very close clinch range where strikes aren't going to be a factor. (Or perhaps even from on the ground).

Confining oneself to a strategy and core principles that basically only serve the needs of one side of the standing striking/kicking coin (very close infight hand striking range)...

IS NOT ENOUGH.
I agree it doesn't always have to be about unbalancing the opponents Central Axis, or using any of the WSL concepts/principles I have discussed here, as WSL WC is a training system, and something you use, not the other way around, with it using you. WSL said don't be a slave to the system. To me that means use what you need of it and no more, which translates in my mind as the true definition of "Economy of Motion". When I fight, I fight, not some system or style that I practice. WC has only given me the engine to use as I see fit. Does the tail wag the dog or the dog wagging the tail? Some have it backwards at times:). In competition fighting, like MMA, you will need more tools than what WC can provide, due to rules, environment, entertainment factor, ability to train and the ability to know who you are fighting before hand. We don't have this luxury on the street, and since most fights start while standing up, you need something that is designed for the environment and is effective for everyday average people with limited time and resources for Martial Arts training. IMO WC is one art that provides that ability.



Good chat and discussion.....

James

[sihing]

Spar/fight and see what works for you. If it works, use it. If it doesn't work, well.....

I agree, in the end it is not about how you did it that counts, it is the fact that you did it. The thing is as teachers of the art, we can't always teach exclusively what works just for us, because not everyone has our attributes or abilites, or are built the same way as us. We have to teach them things that generally are effective for most people. After they have learned it, they are responsible for testing it out and making the necessary adjustments according to their abilities, understanding, body make up, and intention with the art.

James

[Ultimatewingchun]

Duende wrote this:

"In HFY we do not have a 'blindside' attack. Instead we have Deui Ying and Jeui Ying facings. And they do not have an either/or, 'other side of the coin' relationship, but rather a co-existing interdependance in amongst themselves."


***FIRST OF ALL, when I speak of two sides to the same coin I AM talking about a co-existing interdependence in and amoungst themselves. And I'm surprised that you would think than I meant something different than that - given what I said in my two previous posts on this thread.

IT'S ALL THE SAME COIN.

Secondly, the last time I heard the term "Deui Ying" was back in my Moy Yat days - by which he simply meant FACING your centerline to the opponent's center.
(William Cheung has always used English terms to describe this - like I just did).

As for Jeui Ying facing - perhaps you should translate/explain that in English. I suspect that I already know the meaning and the application of the concept using different words - but I'm not familiar with that particular "Chinese" term.

..............................................

And James, by COM I mean THE CENTRAL AXIS VERTICAL PLAIN as you now describe/label it.

I never meant the point just below the navel.

In other words, when I use the term COM I'm referring to a vertical line - not a horizontal one.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Speed in relation to trying to take someone's flank. If I move straight in on someone, that is closer and faster (economy of motion), than moving to the side of them and still trying to be in range to hit them, so speed is a factor. Cheung was lightning fast in his prime, so therefore he was more able to use this tactic and succeed with it. Not all possess his speed or abilities."(J)

***IT'S NOT REALLY a question of speed, James. I will still move "straight in" when attacking my opponent's flank (as in mirrored leads). But just slightly to the outside of his lead leg with my lead leg. Hardly noticable. No "big" attempt to get to his flank - not yet anyway. And I'm moving in like that as part of WORKING toward being able "to hit them" WHILE TRYING TO MAXIMIZE MY CHANCES OF NOT GETTING HIT BACK.

In other words, I'm looking to "come in" on this guy by playing a Position strategy game as a means of gaining Control over the fight (and his body) that ends with attacks on hard targets - and not simply chasing hands/limbs.

Instead of just attacking right into his COM and thereby inviting blows from virtually any limb he has without making it at least harder for him to hit me with some of those limbs...which is...

THE WHOLE ESSENCE OF THE BLINDSIDE FLANKING STRATEGY.

[sanjuro_ronin]

For a "japanese" view of blind spit fighting, you can look up Ashihara Karate, on off-shot of kyokushin that "lives" in the blind spot.

[Ali. R]

attacking someones "blind side" or dead side is just common sense. The question is can you do it, he may not let you. Its like when you roll, you may not get a chance to take his back... so you should be flexible. Everyone knows about dead side, so people adjust and prevent you just like taking the back or mount.

Its just plain common sense why stand infront of the guy( so he can punch and kick you with both limbs). Most people will make it hard for you to get a side position... but if you set it up you can do it just fine.

Some people are very good at fighting in the center... you've got to be that much better.



Some may say to themselves that they are going in on a straight line when so-called flanking or attacking, but the legs go in one direction and the hands goes in another, hence cutting your center of gravity in half, compared to the one who's feet follows the same line all together as one (Feet follow the hands)...

It works well with weapons (flanking) but not with the hands because one does not control one's balance as in most sword play, just room too swing the weapon not taking one’s balance… Remember; how can one effectively fight you if he’s fighting for his balance…

Other wise where does the flank happens; the feet or the hands, can’t be both because one feels as if they're going in a straight line, but insisted that one is flanking …

Flanking sounds real good, kinda like when a grown man hear's the word “panties”…

Better does not comply with more or extra movements in any wing chun system that I know of…

Ali Rahim.

[JPinAZ]

"Speed in relation to trying to take someone's flank. If I move straight in on someone, that is closer and faster (economy of motion), than moving to the side of them and still trying to be in range to hit them, so speed is a factor. Cheung was lightning fast in his prime, so therefore he was more able to use this tactic and succeed with it. Not all possess his speed or abilities."(J)

***IT'S NOT REALLY a question of speed, James. I will still move "straight in" when attacking my opponent's flank (as in mirrored leads). But just slightly to the outside of his lead leg with my lead leg. Hardly noticable. No "big" attempt to get to his flank - not yet anyway. And I'm moving in like that as part of WORKING toward being able "to hit them" WHILE TRYING TO MAXIMIZE MY CHANCES OF NOT GETTING HIT BACK.

In other words, I'm looking to "come in" on this guy by playing a Position strategy game as a means of gaining Control over the fight (and his body) that ends with attacks on hard targets - and not simply chasing hands/limbs.

Instead of just attacking right into his COM and thereby inviting blows from virtually any limb he has without making it at least harder for him to hit me with some of those limbs...which is...

THE WHOLE ESSENCE OF THE BLINDSIDE FLANKING STRATEGY.

Vic, I hear what you are saying and agree with it. But from what I've seen this isn't demonstrated in the videos (neither by GM WC nor Sifu Redmond or yours from what I recall). And I'm not passing any judgement, just confuse because the videos I have seen so far do not reflect this line of thought.

Joanthan

[Ali. R]

Vic, I hear what you are saying and agree with it. But from what I've seen this isn't demonstrated in the videos (neither by GM WC nor Sifu Redmond or yours from what I recall). And I'm not passing any judgement, just confuse because the videos I have seen so far do not reflect this line of thought.

Joanthan


That’s because when one tries to flank, the other practitioner moves and do not stand mirrored to his opponent, when they make sparring clips…

It seems to work very easily when they’re doing a mirrored stance demonstrations clips.

Don’t take my word for it, just go look for yourself…


Ali Rahim.

[k gledhill]

my 2c .......the bare hand attack is closer than the weapons for obvious reasons, weapons ie the knives create a 'box' around the guy equally armed allowing no lead leg to be cut as we move around the perimiter cutting back

...in bare hands we angle in with either leg [triangulate in cutting angles, not a box ] using the forearms as the second pair of hands so to speak , in close quarters, 'jiue ying ' aka chu ying is SLT + CK = facing the triangulation point /apex , of our SLT arms on and over a crossing bridge in rotation / individually or as a po-pai shove , over & under that attacking limb

the chum kil teaches us to face our line of attack like a gun fight, to be both out of the line of fire facing 2 guns , each player with 2 , one gun in each hand , but close enough to work the fist in 1 beat defelect/strikes in fast rotation , to far away and even if you try to strike your only doing so with the arm alone from a static stance the elbows raise up because they cant reach otherwise and the forearm/slt idea/elbowheight/defense line is lost as is agressive entry , rather fighting is done on a perimiter

...the correct proximity is so each hand can touch the target WHILE Xing over & or under the bridge of the opponent without thinking of defense , rather the design is the defense in waiting.
......the forearms ,by design, cover us by being low and in at tight angles , seamlessly covering our line while swapping out, as tut sao [shaving hands] teaches, to always have a 'free rear vusao hand' to continue striking from ...

the SLT idea allows us to attack without thinking in this proximity as we strike etc.. because by design anything entering our vulnerable zone in a line to our centers is intercepted and dealt with by the forearm contact/chisao reactions/techniques to maintain an unbroken delivery of attack...it doesnt matter what lead leg you adopt when at the flank angling [B]into as the dummy side entry, and forwards to the available targets to strike and or unbalance as people say...

the later section of chum kil teaches this when we do double bong sao's...either leg can lead regardless what side you attack...either can be used regardless of arm used facing the LINE OF ATTACK at a 45 degree line going in [ no real degree just a reference] not square on shoulder to shoulder as TRAINING STARTING POINTS IN CHI SAO DRILLS to move and angle from each other, as random entry is trained and reacted to utilizing this drill to develop, amongst other attributes, lin sil di da basic ability in each arm and to develop deliver stopping force, magnum round punches, at close quarters combining the timing of the quadriceps fast twitch contractions, timed WITH the punch as it lands .

The inch punch is for proving this timing in training without breaking the guys jaw/rib everytime you make contact :D.....

as WSL would say " facing a bucket of water coming at you, your chances of getting wet are higher , you may block some but not all " so its better to wait for the guy to throw his bucket at you [commit] and move accdordingly out of the way , then crash him with your perpetual WAVE of attack all the way to the beach .

[Ali. R]

Why must one fight with their hands as if they have a weapon (staying to the outside), wont make solid contact if your opponent can move his or her feet, as demonstrated in most of the clips that I see on this entry while sparing… You can slice with either leg, but I was taught too do that only after bridge contact is made (chum kil)…


Ali Rahim.

[Graychuan]

Ah, the pre-qualifing, other people's responsibility, backpedalling strategy.

No back pedaling here. Ill attack for you anytime if you want to demo techniques for posting on here, Sifu Ali.
I appreciate the demo on mirror stance. As far as the demos being premetitated... well, how else will you get the concepts across when explaining anything. I also like the fact that you showed that you know what to do in either stance, cross or mirror. It was all pretty clear to me.

~Cg~

[Ali. R]

No back pedaling here. Ill attack for you anytime if you want to demo techniques for posting on here, Sifu Ali.
I appreciate the demo on mirror stance. As far as the demos being premetitated... well, how else will you get the concepts across when explaining anything. I also like the fact that you showed that you know what to do in either stance, cross or mirror. It was all pretty clear to me.

~Cg~


My 'Man'!!! :cool::cool:


Ali Rahim.

[Nick Forrer]

my 2c .......the bare hand attack is closer than the weapons for obvious reasons, weapons ie the knives create a 'box' around the guy equally armed allowing no lead leg to be cut as we move around the perimiter cutting back ...in bare hands we angle in with either leg [triangulate in cutting angles, not a box ] using the forearms as the second pair of hands so to speak , in close quarters, 'jiue ying ' aka chu ying is SLT + CK = facing the triangulation point /apex , of our SLT arms on and over a crossing bridge in rotation / individually or as a po-pai shove , over & under that attacking limb , the chum kil teaches us to face our line of attack like a gun fight, to be both out of the line of fire facing 2 guns , each player with 2 , one gun in each hand , but close enough to work the fist in 1 beat defelect/strikes in fast rotation , to far away and even if you try to strike your only doing so with the arm alone from a static stance the elbows raise up because they cant reach otherwise and the forearm/slt idea/elbowheight/defense line is lost as is agressive entry , rather fighting is done on a perimiter ...the correct proximity is so each hand can touch the target WHILE Xing over & or under the bridge of the opponent without thinking of defense , rather the design is the defense in waiting ......the forearms ,by design, cover us by being low and in at tight angles , seamlessly covering our line while swapping out, as tut sao [shaving hands] teaches, to always have a 'free rear vusao hand' to continue striking from ...the SLT idea allows us to attack without thinking in this proximity as we strike etc because by design anything entering our vulnerable zone in a line to our centers is intercepted and dealt with by the forearm contact/chisao reactions/techniques to maintain an unbroken delivery of attack...it doesnt matter what lead leg you adopt when at the flank angling [B]into as the dummy side entry, and forwards to the available targets to strike and or unbalance as people say...the later section of chum kil teaches this when we do double bong sao's...either leg can lead regardless what side you attack...either can be used regardless of arm used facing the LINE OF ATTACK at a 45 degree line going in [ no real degree just a reference] not square on shoulder to shoulder as TRAINING STARTING POINTS IN CHI SAO DRILLS to move and angle from each other, as random entry is trained and reacted to utilizing this drill to develop, amongst other attributes, lin sil di da basic ability in each arm and to develop deliver stopping force, magnum round punches, at close quarters combining the timing of the quadriceps fast twitch contractions, timed WITH the punch as it lands . The inch punch is for proving this timing in training without breaking the guys jaw/rib everytime you make contact :D.....

as WSL would say " facing a bucket of water coming at you, your chances of getting wet are higher , you may block some but not all " so its better to wait for the guy to throw his bucket at you [commit] and move accdordingly out of the way , then crash him with your perpetual WAVE of attack all the way to the beach .

Kevin,

Paragraphs are your friend....seriously

[Knifefighter]

As far as the demos being premetitated... well, how else will you get the concepts across when explaining anything.

No problem with showing something premeditated. The problem comes when there is never, ever, ever, ever shown anything that is not premeditated.

So when will the video be posted?

[Graychuan]

No problem with showing something premeditated. The problem comes when there is never, ever, ever, ever shown anything that is not premeditated.

So when with the video be posted?

Hmmm...I see your point. Maybe you could help us with this, knifefighter. Any videos?

~Cg~

[YungChun]

Kevin,

Paragraphs are your friend....seriously
I kind of like his stream of consciousness WCK explanations..

It's like the unbroken water hose combined with an acid trip.. :D

[Ali. R]

No problem with showing something premeditated. The problem comes when there is never, ever, ever, ever shown anything that is not premeditated.

So when with the video be posted?


When I tried to post a clip, you came a little offbeat for me…

Man I’m not sighing up in a blood sport tournament dealing with qualifying or pre-qualifying, just to prove a point for you, fu*k that… Did that done that…

I offer a good sparring match, but that was not good enough for you…


Ali Rahim.

[Knifefighter]

Hmmm...I see your point. Maybe you could help us with this, knifefighter. Any videos?

~Cg~

I believe this was about your man posting himself doing his stuff live.

BTW, I've posted a variety of mine in the past.

[Knifefighter]

When I tried to post a clip, you came a little offbeat for me…

Man I’m not sighing up in a blood sport tournament dealing with qualifying or pre-qualifying, just to prove a point for you, fu*k that… Did that done that…


You were the one who brought it up.


Did that done that…


Sure you did.

[Ali. R]

You were the one who brought it up.



Sure you did.


You better ask somebody…


Ali Rahim.

[Knifefighter]

You better ask somebody…


Oh, I'm sure they all have heard your stories about "back in the day".

[Ali. R]

Sure you did.

You better ask somebody…



You were the one who brought it up

:confused::confused::confused::confused:


Ali Rahim.

[Ali. R]

Oh, I'm sure they all have heard your stories about "back in the day".


Nope, they were there…

Wait a second, I’m actually talking about if I have fighting skills or not too prove a point, I must be slipping… BTW. I prefer if one believe that I don’t…

;)

Ali Rahim.

[Graychuan]

I believe this was about your man posting himself doing his stuff live.

BTW, I've posted a variety of mine in the past.


So why not address this comment to Phil and some of the others also. His video was a premeditated display also. Did you have a problem with his? If so then why only comment about Ali's vids?

~Cg~

[Ali. R]

So why not address this comment to Phil and some of the others also. His video was a premeditated display also. Did you have a problem with his? If so then why only coment about Ali's vids?

~Cg~


“Wahoo Nelly”, partner… ;):rolleyes::D


Ali Rahim.

[Phil Redmond]

Kevin,

Paragraphs are your friend....seriously
I agree Scholar Warrior ;)

[Knifefighter]

So why not address this comment to Phil and some of the others also. His video was a premeditated display also. Did you have a problem with his? If so then why only comment about Ali's vids?

~Cg~

You are obviously new here. :rolleyes: Most WC demos are exactly that... B.S. demos with no substance to back them up

At least Phil has balanced his out by posting some clips of his guys actually fighting in full contact competitions.

[Ali. R]

"Speed in relation to trying to take someone's flank. If I move straight in on someone, that is closer and faster (economy of motion), than moving to the side of them and still trying to be in range to hit them, so speed is a factor. Cheung was lightning fast in his prime, so therefore he was more able to use this tactic and succeed with it. Not all possess his speed or abilities."(J)

It’s always about speed especially when running a flank, in order to attack in two directions as the military does in most operation one unit has too run in double or triple time too make the flank work…


***IT'S NOT REALLY a question of speed, James. I will still move "straight in" when attacking my opponent's flank (as in mirrored leads). But just slightly to the outside of his lead leg with my lead leg. Hardly noticable. No "big" attempt to get to his flank - not yet anyway. And I'm moving in like that as part of WORKING toward being able "to hit them" WHILE TRYING TO MAXIMIZE MY CHANCES OF NOT GETTING HIT BACK.


Not if one react too your reaction, and not just stand there, either by going in or pivoting, and by fighting from the outside you may not hit him... While you’re maximizing your chances on not getting hit, you are greatly maximizing your chances on not being able too hit back, unless you have very long arms or a weapon, that would close that distance that you’re maximizing you’re chances on not being hit from, especially if your opponent moves his or her feet…


Ali Rahim.

[YungChun]

It's about economy of flank.. :)

[Graychuan]

You are obviously new here. :rolleyes: Most WC demos are exactly that... B.S. demos with no substance to back them up

At least Phil has balanced his out by posting some clips of his guys actually fighting in full contact competitions.


So why not ask Phil about putting up videos of HIMSELF fending off real attacks(as you say) instead of his students. You had no problem asking ALI.

Yes new to the forum but not new to martial arts. Not new at all. I'd like to have my original question answered please. Why only question Ali? and after that answer this one...Why only defend Phil?

Or you dont have to answer. Its ok if you dont have one.

~Cg~

[Phil Redmond]

Hmmm...I see your point. Maybe you could help us with this, knifefighter. Any videos?

~Cg~
Actually, he posted a video of him fighting in different full contact events. At least one of them was bareknuckle.

[Ali. R]

You are obviously new here. :rolleyes: Most WC demos are exactly that... B.S. demos with no substance to back them up

At least Phil has balanced his out by posting some clips of his guys actually fighting in full contact competitions.


See here we go, but phil did not fight in thoes clips, it must took you all day too think of that one, Huh... :D:confused::confused::D

[Knifefighter]

So why not ask Phil about putting up videos of HIMSELF fending off real attacks(as you say) instead of his students. You had no problem asking ALI.~

Ali is the one who started a whole thread which included the pretend clip of him doing his techs.

I don't think Phil has done that.

[sihing]

Ali is the one who started a whole thread which included the pretend clip of him doing his techs.

I don't think Phil has done that.

I don't think Ali was posting clips of what "He" does, but rather what not to do in his opinion.

Okay guys, lets play nice now:)

J

[Ali. R]

So why not ask Phil about putting up videos of HIMSELF fending off real attacks(as you say) instead of his students. You had no problem asking ALI.

Yes new to the forum but not new to martial arts. Not new at all. I'd like to have my original question answered please. Why only question Ali? and after that answer this one...Why only defend Phil?

Or you dont have to answer. Its ok if you dont have one.

~Cg~


My 'Man'!!! ;):eek::cool::cool:


Ali Rahim.

[Ali. R]

I don't think Ali was posting clips of what "He" does, but rather what not to do in his opinion.

Okay guys, lets play nice now:)

J


Right on point...

Everybody wants to take it too another level, why is everyone so fu*king serious... :cool::confused::cool:


Ali Rahim.

[Graychuan]

Ali is the one who started a whole thread which included the pretend clip of him doing his techs.

I don't think Phil has done that.


Ok, so read and watch this and think again...

I still say that orthodox fighters have a hard time with southpaws and I don't even know why I'm wasting my time with this but . . .

I showed the clip that started this thread at begginers class today. They even knew that no one's just going to stand there while the other guy turns to hit you. They understand that unless you finish it right then and there that there is always a counter to a technique and a counter to that. They also know to hit and move and to not wait to be countered. There many variables that can happen with any given techinque. Here is a "basic" example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgIXqSBYszo
__________________
Phillip Redmond
World Wing Chun Kung Fu Association
TWC North America Headquarters
Wing Chun Kung Fu Academy of Michigan
Toronto Wing Chun Academy

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Last edited by Phil Redmond : Yesterday at 02:59 AM.

~Cg~

[Knifefighter]

I knew that was coming, wondering what took so long…

How about this, I’ll post a clip of a fourth degree black belt trying too my knock my block off by stepping to the outside, I mean really give it his best shot, hooks and all... I hope I don’t have too draw blood for you guys…

Ali Rahim.


Followed immediately by the expected backpedalling.

Phil doesn't say he is going to do something and then pu$$y out.

[Ali. R]

Followed immediately by the expected backpedalling..

LOL,,LOL...

When I tried to post a clip, you came a little offbeat for me…

Man I’m not sighing up in a blood sport tournament dealing with qualifying or pre-qualifying, just to prove a point for you, fu*k that… Did that done that…

I offer a good sparring match, but that was not good enough for you…



Phil doesn't say he is going to do something and then pu$$y out.

LOL,,LOL...

How petty is this crap, I’m a grown man, got too do better then that too bait me in… Why fuss over nothing that’s off subject?

Take care ‘champ’.


Ali Rahim.

[Graychuan]

Knifefighter,
Lets get something straight....I liked Phil's video. I also like ALIs video. Not once did I bash Phil for demonstrating a set up technique to explain a fighting concept. This is not about Phil...its about YOU and why you only chose to dog on ALI when everyone here has seen Phil do the same thing. My question still stands...why make an example out of one person?


P.S. I am being nice. Just not getting any answers. This guy is still comming with the insults. Substituting other letters or symbols so he can get his offensive jibes in but still no answer. :(

~Cg~

[Knifefighter]

Knifefighter,
Lets get something straight....I liked Phil's video. I also like ALIs video. Not once did I bash Phil for demonstrating a set up technique to explain a fighting concept. This is not about Phil...its about YOU and why you only chose to dog on ALI when everyone here has seen Phil do the same thing. My question still stands...why make an example out of one person?

Go back and read the thread. Notice that I said nothing until your man said he was going to post the clip of doing it for real.

Phil never said he was going to do that.

[Ultimatewingchun]

A thread started by Cedric (Ali) that tries to take apart a basic strategy of TWC - which just so happens to be the chosen wing chun style of PHIL REDMOND (the man that Cedric/Ali still can't seem to get out of his nightmares - but for no apparent reason other than Cedric's own delusions)...

followed by some guy we've never heard of before coming on the thread to offer his a55 to Cedric while continuing the attack on TWC/Phil...

mixed in with Kevin Gledhill's very good (but hard to read) posts...Nice stream of consciousness stuff - but you could go back once it's out of your system and make some paragraphs...please?:p:rolleyes::cool::eek::D

And Dale managing to rip into wing chun while praising some wing chun/wing chun people. :rolleyes:;)

And of course, from time-to-time...there's actually been some real talk about wing chun mirrored lead/blindside wing chun.

But what a shocker, huh? :cool:

Another thread by Cedric/Ali that is little more than a GIANT FRIGGIN' TROLL JOB!!!

[Ali. R]

Knifefighter,
Lets get something straight....I liked Phil's video. I also like ALIs video. Not once did I bash Phil for demonstrating a set up technique to explain a fighting concept. This is not about Phil...its about YOU and why you only chose to dog on ALI when everyone here has seen Phil do the same thing. My question still stands...why make an example out of one person?


P.S. I am being nice. Just not getting any answers. This guy is still comming with the insults. Substituting other letters or symbols so he can get his offensive jibes in but still no answer. :(

~Cg~


Phil does not have too sign up in a blood match; all he has to do is have a clip of someone’s students sparring, I guess he expects much more from me (Knifefighter), which is a reasonable request…


Ali Rahim.

[Graychuan]

Go back and read the thread. Notice that I said nothing until your man said he was going to post the clip of doing it for real.

Phil never said he was going to do that.


Now who is backpedaling?

LMBAO!!!!

~Cg~

[Knifefighter]

Phil does not have too sign up in a blood match; all he has to do is have a clip of someone’s students sparring, I guess he expects much more from me (Knifefighter), which is a reasonable request…

Doesn't have to be you. Go ahead and post the clips of your student's fighting in full contact competitons... even better if they can actually do what you were demonstrating.

[Ali. R]

A thread started by Cedric (Ali) that tries to take apart a basic strategy of TWC - which just so happens to be the chosen wing chun style of PHIL REDMOND (the man that Cedric/Ali still can't seem to get out of his nightmares - but for no apparent reason other than Cedric's own delusions)...

followed by some guy we've never heard of before coming on the thread to offer his a55 to Cedric while continuing the attack on TWC/Phil...

mixed in with Kevin Gledhill's very good (but hard to read) posts...Nice stream of consciousness stuff - but you could go back once it's out of your system and make some paragraphs...please?:p:rolleyes::cool::eek::D

And Dale managing to rip into wing chun while praising some wing chun/wing chun people. :rolleyes:;)

And of course, from time-to-time...there's actually been some real talk about wing chun mirrored lead/blindside wing chun.

But what a shocker, huh? :cool:

Another thread by Cedric/Ali that is little more than a GIANT FRIGGIN' TROLL JOB!!!




Poor Guy,

You were doing fine... Come on, stay on subject... Why quit so soon?

Victor you are not going to make me disrespect you, it won’t work…



Ali Rahim.

[Ali. R]

Doesn't have to be you. Go ahead and post the clips of your student's fighting in full contact competitons... even better if they can actually do what you were demonstrating.


Who cares!!!


Ali Rahim.

[Knifefighter]

Who cares!!!


LOL... this is pretty much how all your stints here under your miscellaneous incarnations have gone.

You talk about what you have done or are going to do... someone calls you on it... you end up saying you don't care.

[Ultimatewingchun]

And that's the whole point.

NOBODY CARES, Ali/Cedric...

about your hostility for TWC.
about your hostility for Phil Redmond.
about your total misunderstanding of blindside/mirrored lead moves.
about your vids that basically demonstrate nothing.
about whether or not you respect me (or anyone else).
about how you got yet another guy to come on a thread to play set up man for you.

Nobody cares! :o

[sihing]

Phil does not have too sign up in a blood match; all he has to do is have a clip of someone’s students sparring, I guess he expects much more from me (Knifefighter), which is a reasonable request…


Ali Rahim.

Phil has put up clips of his students sparring, go to his youtube profile, there's like 60+ video's, with lots showcasing his students doing stuff.

Be nice now boys:)

James

[sihing]

And that's the whole point.

NOBODY CARES, Ali/Cedric...

about your hostility for TWC.
about your hostility for Phil Redmond.
about your total misunderstanding of blindside/mirrored lead moves.
about your vids that basically demonstrate nothing.
about whether or not you respect me (or anyone else).
about how you got yet another guy to come on a thread to play set up man for you.

Nobody cares! :o

I don't think Ali's vid (the one showcased on this thread), show's nothing? He's not just demonstrating what he thinks the mirror side fighting is, he also explains his reasoning why he thinks it doesn't work, Phil did the same to counter that, IMO that is the only way you can do it on a forum like this, since the likelyhood that we are going to all meet up to discuss this one point is not going to happen. So far I haven't seen Ali show any hostility towards Phil, and I'm fully aware of the past instances where he has or where people supposedly from his group have. For now this thread has been pretty civil if you ask me.

The best way to deal with people that disagree with something you teach or a concept/principle/tactic within your system is to 1) use the logic behind what you do to show how and why it works, 2) show it in use thru video in a more realistic fashion 3) ignore what is said about whatever it is they disagree with. That's all you can do on a forum like this. Things are much easier to explain and demonstrate in person.


James

[duende]

Duende wrote this:

"In HFY we do not have a 'blindside' attack. Instead we have Deui Ying and Jeui Ying facings. And they do not have an either/or, 'other side of the coin' relationship, but rather a co-existing interdependance in amongst themselves."


***FIRST OF ALL, when I speak of two sides to the same coin I AM talking about a co-existing interdependence in and amoungst themselves. And I'm surprised that you would think than I meant something different than that - given what I said in my two previous posts on this thread.

IT'S ALL THE SAME COIN.



Hey Victor,

It's cool. I was just pointing out some differences where I saw them. From my POV the videos in question do not show a "co-existing interdependance", but rather an either/or relationship. Heads one way, tails another... This is not how it is in HFY.

We all have our own understandings and differences... No big deal.

[Ali. R]

LOL... this is pretty much how all your stints here under your miscellaneous incarnations have gone.

You talk about what you have done or are going to do... someone calls you on it... you end up saying you don't care.


I’m not that small minded were I have too prove every point, especially when it was shot down from the jump, now because one wants too see me do it, I have do it I don’t think so, I’m no one’s monkey... :rolleyes::cool::cool::rolleyes:

Entertain yourself you don’t need me, come on let’s stop being so petty… :)


Ali Rahim.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Hey Victor,

It's cool. I was just pointing out some differences where I saw them. From my POV the videos in question do not show a "co-existing interdependance", but rather an either/or relationship. Heads one way, tails another... This is not how it is in HFY.

We all have our own understandings and differences... No big deal.


***I can't argue with that. I plan to do some vids myself within the next 3 months or so that might change that perception, though. Hopefully a lot will come out, ie.- blindside/mirrored stuff...COM stuff...clinch...ground...boxing with TWC central line principles. We'll see.

[Ali. R]

And that's the whole point.

NOBODY CARES, Ali/Cedric...

about your hostility for TWC.
about your hostility for Phil Redmond.
about your total misunderstanding of blindside/mirrored lead moves.
about your vids that basically demonstrate nothing.
about whether or not you respect me (or anyone else).
about how you got yet another guy to come on a thread to play set up man for you.

Nobody cares! :o


LOL,,LOL...

HELP ME understand Victor... :confused::confused::confused:

Please show me a post off mine that has hostility in it, Victor... Keep up the good work, you're getting better... :):confused::confused::)


Ali Rahim.

[Graychuan]

So if it was interpreted that ALI's post was directed specifically at TWC it came about from Phil's post right afterwards. I dIdnt see any specific references to TWC until Phil made them in post # 3....

A subtle slam at TWC? How nice. I wonder why orthodox boxers have trouble fighting south paws. Everyone should do what works for them personally. At our school we fight using a parallel and cross stances. If it ain't broke don't fix it. Don't live in a box. And for those WC purists, I have video of a WC Sifu in HK showing how YM taught him how to fight on the blindside. So obivously Yip Man taught that as well.
For the real fighters, who cares anyway? No matter where you put your foot, a win is a win.
__________________
Phillip Redmond
World Wing Chun Kung Fu Association
TWC North America Headquarters
Wing Chun Kung Fu Academy of Michigan
Toronto Wing Chun Academy




__________________________________________________ _______


Even here, to his credit, Phil didnt even attack ALI or troll him. Phil just came on and defended his philosophy( and demonstrated via video clip later on in the thread) as to what he was talking about. There were a couple of others ( Sihing, JPinAZ) who counter argued with ALI. And they used valid explainations of why the thought the way they did. Even Ultimate came on strong. Vic, well he could have been just making a joke to try to lighten up the thread, but asking for an aswer to a question is not trolling. Not having an answer to a simple question and trying to cover it up with more attacks causes horns to grow out your temples and puts warts on you tongue. lol

~Cg~

[sihing]

I’m not that small minded were I have too prove every point, especially when it was shot down from the jump, now because one wants too see me do it, I have do it I don’t think so, I’m no one’s monkey... :rolleyes::cool::cool::rolleyes:

Entertain yourself you don’t need me, come on let’s stop being so petty… :)


Ali Rahim.

I wouldn't worry about Dale, Ali. On another thread about defending the shoot, he wants some one to enter a wrestling tournament to prove that his defences against the takedown really work. Okay, so I'm going to invest how many months of training to prepare for this tourney to prove a point to someone I don't know, or really care about regarding what they think of me? To me, since this is a discussion forum, that is a ridiculous request, since the point of this place is to discuss. If someone is BS'g about something or their abilities then that will be apparent to everyone, and their credibility will be destroyed, so therefore ignore their posts.

For Dale, he knows that most of us are not competative types, so he bates us to do just that, compete, to prove our points to him or T, which to me is a useless endeavour. The reason why I think WC works is because 1) I've felt it work on myself, 2) I've seen it work on others, 3) The ideas behind are sound and logical, based on my experience and other's that train me and with me.

James

[Ali. R]

So if it was interpreted that ALI's post was directed specifically at TWC it came about from Phil's post right afterwards. I dIdnt see any specific references to TWC until Phil made them in post # 3....

A subtle slam at TWC? How nice. I wonder why orthodox boxers have trouble fighting south paws. Everyone should do what works for them personally. At our school we fight using a parallel and cross stances. If it ain't broke don't fix it. Don't live in a box. And for those WC purists, I have video of a WC Sifu in HK showing how YM taught him how to fight on the blindside. So obivously Yip Man taught that as well.
For the real fighters, who cares anyway? No matter where you put your foot, a win is a win.
__________________
Phillip Redmond
World Wing Chun Kung Fu Association
TWC North America Headquarters
Wing Chun Kung Fu Academy of Michigan
Toronto Wing Chun Academy




__________________________________________________ _______


Even here, to his credit, Phil didnt even attack ALI or troll him. Phil just came on and defended his philosophy( and demonstrated via video clip later on in the thread) as to what he was talking about. There were a couple of others ( Sihing, JPinAZ) who counter argued with ALI. And they used valid explainations of why the thought the way they did. Even Ultimate came on strong. Vic, well he could have been just making a joke to try to lighten up the thread, but asking for an aswer to a question is not trolling. Not having an answer to a simple question and trying to cover it up with more attacks causes horns to grow out your temples and puts warts on you tongue. lol

~Cg~



Phil and I don’t want too fight, I’m sure I don’t… But I can’t say that for others…


Ali Rahim.

[Knifefighter]

Okay, so I'm going to invest how many months of training to prepare for this tourney to prove a point to someone I don't know, or really care about regarding what they think of me?

Why would someone have to invest months of training to compete in a tourney to do something his is claiming "is part of his system" that he should be able to currently do.


I've felt it work on myself,

Whom did you fight full contact to feel this?


I've seen it work on others,

Which full contact fights did you observe where it worked?

[Ultimatewingchun]

"So if it was interpreted that ALI's post was directed specifically at TWC it came about from Phil's post right afterwards. I dIdnt see any specific references to TWC until Phil made them in post # 3....

A subtle slam at TWC? How nice."


***A SUBTLE SLAM at TWC is exactly right. Is it a better approach than what Cedric's done in the past? Yeah. I'll give him that. But the previous track record under various incarnations/signatures was horrendous. Enough to get him banned, in fact.

So what do you expect when the very first thread he does in this latest incarnation is a slam at TWC blindside strategy? Even if it is more subtle than in the past. So what?

.........................................

And as for fighting on the blindside from mirrored leads - it has its advantages and there are ways to try and counter it. True. Just another GOOD tool to have in your toolbox. A very good tool, in fact.

But not the only tool.

[sihing]

***I can't argue with that. I plan to do some vids myself within the next 3 months or so that might change that perception, though. Hopefully a lot will come out, ie.- blindside/mirrored stuff...COM stuff...clinch...ground...boxing with TWC central line principles. We'll see.

Okay Victor, fair enough and I look forward to viewing the video's. Two questions, what body mechanics or footwork methods does TWC contain that will allow you to control someone's Central Axis? In your opinion, what does one need to do or have within their body structure/mechanics/footwork patterns to be able to do just that?

James

[Knifefighter]

Okay Victor, fair enough and I look forward to viewing the video's. Two questions, what body mechanics or footwork methods does TWC contain that will allow you to control someone's Central Axis? In your opinion, what does one need to do or have within their body structure/mechanics/footwork patterns to be able to do just that?

Clinch, clinch, clinch.

[sihing]

Why would someone have to invest months of training to compete in a tourney to do something his is claiming "is part of his system" that he should be able to currently do.



Whom did you fight full contact to feel this?



Which full contact fights did you observe where it worked?

You see Dale, I could explain all of it, but you wouldn't understand anyways. You don't understand our training methods or even the way we apply what we do. For example, two guys that train in WC, if they chi sau together that is a good way to test their "Wing Chun" against one another (not to mean their actual ability to fight in a free form), but specifically within a WC platform, sort of like in BJJ rolling (when you roll do you allow punching and gouges, bites etc..?). When I first went to LA, that is what I felt, total control from the other guys, with me very rarely being able to counter or attack back. I know you think this represents BS training methods, of course you would think this if you don't understand, I would too. I had a guys with only 2 yrs experience pushing me around like I was some sort of beginner, never mind the training and lessons I got from guys like Ernie or Sifu Gary. For me, that's all I need to realise that there was something effective to this method of WC. Since then the more I visit with the guys in LA, and the more I train with people here, the more I realize how well the system can work, if and when someone puts the time and effort into learning it correctly, from somone qualified to teach it.

Your statements, as usual are an attack on the credibilty of Wing Chun's training methods and how effective they are. I could care less if you think it all a bunch of hog wash, since I know you are unfamiliar with what it really is about.

James

[sihing]

Clinch, clinch, clinch.

Grapplers solution, not necessarily ours:)

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Two questions, what body mechanics or footwork methods does TWC contain that will allow you to control someone's Central Axis? In your opinion, what does one need to do or have within their body structure/mechanics/footwork patterns to be able to do just that?" (J)


***BUT THAT'S A BIG POINT I was trying to make much earlier on the thread. The blindside/mirrored lead strategy is used to try and penetrate his defenses from the longer range so that the central axis will be exposed and vulnerable to being controlled.

It's a means of trying to gain entry that sets up a possible positional advantage - from which the central axis can be attacked.

And btw....I'm going to continue using the term COM (center-of-mass) to define this. I first saw the term in David Peterson's book on WSL - and I'm convinced that he was using it to define the VERTICAL LINE we discussed earlier. I like his term better than how I used to refer to it (attacking the center)...since his term makes it clear that we are not necessarily referring to the opponent's main centerline.

One can easily make that mistake when simply referring to attacking "his center", imo.

[Ali. R]

"So if it was interpreted that ALI's post was directed specifically at TWC it came about from Phil's post right afterwards. I dIdnt see any specific references to TWC until Phil made them in post # 3....

A subtle slam at TWC? How nice."


***A SUBTLE SLAM at TWC is exactly right. Is it a better approach than what Cedric's done in the past? Yeah. I'll give him that. But the previous track record under various incarnations/signatures was horrendous. Enough to get him banned, in fact.

If I was banned for making these kind of post, then that was out right wrong…

OMG, there is a problem, you think I should get banned for the stuff I’m posting, this is a great thread, more then one said so… Should I be banned for making this thread yes or no Victor?



And as for fighting on the blindside from mirrored leads - it has its advantages and there are ways to try and counter it. True. Just another GOOD tool to have in your toolbox. A very good tool, in fact.

But not the only tool.

Why you couldn't just say it like that?
Why all the disrespect?

[Ali. R]

Why would someone have to invest months of training to compete in a tourney to do something his is claiming "is part of his system" that he should be able to currently do.



Whom did you fight full contact to feel this?



Which full contact fights did you observe where it worked?



Oh brother!!! :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Enough, can we just get over the fighting crap and stay on the thread subject…


Ali Rahim.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"OMG, there is a problem, you think I should get banned for the stuff I’m posting, this is a great thread, more then one said so… Should I be banned for making this thread yes or no Victor?"


***YOU JUST CREATED A STRAWMAN and then proceeded to throw rocks at it.

You know...and I know...and everybody else knows...

that I haven't called for you to be banned because of this thread.

So it's you that's showing disrespect by trying to even play that strawman card. As if people are actually stupid enough to buy into your attempts to paint me as a "ban Ali guy" based upon what you've said on this thread.

You need to start giving people a lot more credit than you do.

[Knifefighter]

Oh brother!!! :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Enough, can we just get over the fighting crap and stay on the thread subject…

Isn't that the bottom line... whether or not it works in fighting? How would one know, otherwise?

[sihing]

"Two questions, what body mechanics or footwork methods does TWC contain that will allow you to control someone's Central Axis? In your opinion, what does one need to do or have within their body structure/mechanics/footwork patterns to be able to do just that?" (J)


***BUT THAT'S A BIG POINT I was trying to make much earlier on the thread. The blindside/mirrored lead strategy is used to try and penetrate his defenses from the longer range so that the central axis will be exposed and vulnerable to being controlled.

It's a means of trying to gain entry that sets up a possible positional advantage - from which the central axis can be attacked.

And btw....I'm going to continue using the term COM (center-of-mass) to define this. I first saw the term in David Peterson's book on WSL - and I'm convinced that he was using it to define the VERTICAL LINE we discussed earlier. I like his term better than how I used to refer to it (attacking the center)...since his term makes it clear that we are not necessarily referring to the opponent's main centerline.

One can easily make that mistake when simply referring to attacking "his center", imo.

Okay, I accept your defintion of COM to mean Central Axis, no problem there.

IMO, since I have experience using mirrored fighting tactics and such, I still don't see how that tactic/strategy will effect someones's COM? Basically, like was demonstrated in the vid of Cheung that I provide with the boxer, when you go for that position I could easily follow you, since you movement is longer than stepping straighter in. One could easily for example put up a lan sau and step into your central axis as well when your positioned in a mirrored setup, all while you are stepping in that position. I've done it against people that tried it on me (with them failing) and tried it as well against those that exclusively use the COM method (with failure as well).

Maybe more explaination is required as to how and why it works to make the COM vulnerable and controlled, like you said in your post.

James

[Ali. R]

You know...and I know...and everybody else knows...

that I haven't called for you to be banned because of this thread..

Victor, if you have read my post, you will see that I didn’t charge you with anything, calm down. I just asked I question…

Victor, why do I have too fight with you (I won’t), and you with me? Redmond and I have not fought… What use does this make, let’s just stop it; it’s just useless you said it yourself in some words “who cares” right, so let’s stop please…

And as for the “straw man”: let’s go see the “Wiz” together, and stop all this fighting (I WON’T FIGHT BACK)…


Ali Rahim.

[k gledhill]

sorry I wrote stream of thought charged with 2 volcanic strength coffee's running to teach this morning ..whats a paragraph ? :D....I wont bore you with paragraphs , but i try to use commas now...;) I'll try harder to write more better.

[Graychuan]

sorry I wrote stream of thought charged with 2 volcanic strength coffee's running to teach this morning ..whats a paragraph ? :D....I wont bore you with paragraphs , but i try to use commas now...;)

LOL. thats great stuff man. LOL

[Ali. R]

Isn't that the bottom line... whether or not it works in fighting? How would one know, otherwise?

I know, and if you don't I'm not hurting anyone too prove a point...

Ok I see your point, let’s all just kill each other too verify a post statement…
Sounds fair, I think you may have something there, don’t post any clips unless one is prepared too draw blood, and you’re not someone other then myself (Ali) or as Victor said: (Cedric), that kinda have a good ring to it, Huh…

I’m not hurting anyone too prove a point, I’m way bigger then that and I’m no kid…


Ali Rahim.

[Ali. R]

sorry I wrote stream of thought charged with 2 volcanic strength coffee's running to teach this morning ..whats a paragraph ? :D....I wont bore you with paragraphs , but i try to use commas now...;) I'll try harder to write more better.

It's all good, I love your post...

[Graychuan]

I would like to point out that i am using Kev's post to reiterate a point that was made and not to in any way troll or disrespect him...i like this statement...

(...it doesnt matter what lead leg you adopt when at the flank angling into as the dummy side entry, and forwards to the available targets to strike and or unbalance as people say...the later section of chum kil teaches this when we do double bong sao's...either leg can lead regardless what side you attack...).


I like the fact that he reference the form Chum Kil to support his post.
So here is an opinoin from the 'new guy' ...

From looking at Ali's video at the start did anyone notice that he says several times that he is catching his attacker square. He did demonstrate that going to the outside works but at the same time it looks as though it will allow attacker to recover quickly. When Ali pivots into the strike its looks like a solid attack right to the center of the guy in the blue scrubs. No easy way to recover when caught and hit square. Using the mirrored stance is a very good attack/defense depending on how you follow through, just as Phil demonstrated, however it does attack right into the persons defensive structure which will involve a little more to actually reach the center.
I am not saying that working with a mirrored stance doesnt allow you to control a persons center because Phil's demo shows that it can be done. I, however, like Alis explaination of how the simple and concise pivot puts you directly on the center and hits the person SQUARE down the middle.

Small concise movements will allow you to react and attack while the opponent is still committed and doing his attack. In ALIs video...the attacker was still finishing his punch as ALI was already striking to the center of the pivot... catching him square. As there are no such things as 'heat seeker' punches...taking advantage of the opponents commitment to attack is good sense.

P.S. This is a **** good thread!!!

~Cg~

[Ali. R]

I never said it couldn’t work either… Unlike “Super Trap”, I won’t “take the long way home”… :cool::eek::cool::):)


Ali Rahim.

[Knifefighter]

I know, and if you don't I'm not hurting anyone too prove a point...

Ok I see your point, let’s all just kill each other too verify a post statement…
Sounds fair, I think you may have something there, don’t post any clips unless one is prepared too draw blood, and you’re not someone other then myself (Ali) or as Victor said: (Cedric), that kinda have a good ring to it, Huh…

I’m not hurting anyone too prove a point, I’m way bigger then that and I’m no kid…


Ali Rahim.

Spoken like a true WC theroretical fanstasy non-fighter.

[JPinAZ]

And that's the whole point.

NOBODY CARES, Ali/Cedric...

about your hostility for TWC.
about your hostility for Phil Redmond.
about your total misunderstanding of blindside/mirrored lead moves.
about your vids that basically demonstrate nothing.
about whether or not you respect me (or anyone else).
about how you got yet another guy to come on a thread to play set up man for you.

Nobody cares! :o

heh, I care :)

Regardless of any intentions anyone here might ASSUME about another - for a while, Ali did provoke some interesting discussions on this forum. Something that's VERY rare around here these days.. I give him kudos for at least making the effort! Who knows, maybe it was a vieled slam against TWC, and who knows, maybe it wasn't Who cares - at least it had people TALKING, and discussing! now it's all personal bickering. Way I see it, Ali and Phil were getting along fine..

now, back on to the soap opera....

Jonathan

[JPinAZ]

"So if it was interpreted that ALI's post was directed specifically at TWC it came about from Phil's post right afterwards. I dIdnt see any specific references to TWC until Phil made them in post # 3....

A subtle slam at TWC? How nice."


***A SUBTLE SLAM at TWC is exactly right. Is it a better approach than what Cedric's done in the past? Yeah. I'll give him that. But the previous track record under various incarnations/signatures was horrendous. Enough to get him banned, in fact.

So what do you expect when the very first thread he does in this latest incarnation is a slam at TWC blindside strategy? Even if it is more subtle than in the past. So what?

.........................................

And as for fighting on the blindside from mirrored leads - it has its advantages and there are ways to try and counter it. True. Just another GOOD tool to have in your toolbox. A very good tool, in fact.

But not the only tool.

While we don't call it 'blind side strategy', nor do I do it like the first video that was posted, HFY also fights in a match/mirrored alignment (as well as crossed stance, no preference, take what you get and deal with it). So, should I now say he was making a slam against HFY too? Should I then get all upset and talk crap?
C'mon, it's not that big of a deal - he didn't say TWC, or anything else.

Jonathan

[JPinAZ]

"clinch, clinch, clinch"


Grapplers solution, not necessarily ours:)

I call that the "can't beat'em join'em" approach :)

[JPinAZ]

I would like to point out that i am using Kev's post to reiterate a point that was made and not to in any way troll or disrespect him...i like this statement...

(...it doesnt matter what lead leg you adopt when at the flank angling into as the dummy side entry, and forwards to the available targets to strike and or unbalance as people say...the later section of chum kil teaches this when we do double bong sao's...either leg can lead regardless what side you attack...).


I like the fact that he reference the form Chum Kil to support his post.
So here is an opinoin from the 'new guy' ...

From looking at Ali's video at the start did anyone notice that he says several times that he is catching his attacker square. He did demonstrate that going to the outside works but at the same time it looks as though it will allow attacker to recover quickly. When Ali pivots into the strike its looks like a solid attack right to the center of the guy in the blue scrubs. No easy way to recover when caught and hit square. Using the mirrored stance is a very good attack/defense depending on how you follow through, just as Phil demonstrated, however it does attack right into the persons defensive structure which will involve a little more to actually reach the center.
I am not saying that working with a mirrored stance doesnt allow you to control a persons center because Phil's demo shows that it can be done. I, however, like Alis explaination of how the simple and concise pivot puts you directly on the center and hits the person SQUARE down the middle.

Small concise movements will allow you to react and attack while the opponent is still committed and doing his attack. In ALIs video...the attacker was still finishing his punch as ALI was already striking to the center of the pivot... catching him square. As there are no such things as 'heat seeker' punches...taking advantage of the opponents commitment to attack is good sense.

P.S. This is a **** good thread!!!

~Cg~

I totally hear what you are saying here. IMO, the 'flaw' I see in the video still stands - the guy in the blue scrubs did not even affect Ali's center, nor his structure, nore take away his space (in HFY, w als call this his raction time) when he 'entered'. As I see it, he didn't even really enter Ali's space at all, he just stepped to the side of it when attacking. This gave Ali all the time in the world to react and counter the attack - he still had his balance, sturcture and weapons at his disposal. So with this type of attack, I agree, Ali SHOULD hyave been able to take it apart. But I don't agree that it's because of a flaw in the strategy, just in the execution (by the guy in the scrubs).

Still, great thread - if you can pick through some of the crap :)

[Ali. R]

Spoken like a true WC theroretical fanstasy non-fighter.

:confused::confused::confused:

Hush,,, what's that sound… Everybody look what’s going down…:D:cool::D

Take care ‘champ’.


Ali Rahim.

[sihing]

I totally hear what you are saying here. IMO, the 'flaw' I see in the video still stands - the guy in the blue scrubs did not even affect Ali's center, nor his structure, nore take away his space (in HFY, w als call this his raction time) when he 'entered'. As I see it, he didn't even really enter Ali's space at all, he just stepped to the side of it when attacking. This gave Ali all the time in the world to react and counter the attack - he still had his balance, sturcture and weapons at his disposal. So with this type of attack, I agree, Ali SHOULD hyave been able to take it apart. But I don't agree that it's because of a flaw in the strategy, just in the execution (by the guy in the scrubs).

Still, great thread - if you can pick through some of the crap :)

That's my main problem with mirrored fighting JpinAZ, as you mentioned, you can't take the balance, structure and weapons away when you step outside and away from COM. It does give you a temporary positional advantage, that is if you are fast enough to pull it off. It may work if the timing is right against a jab punch or someone leaning in on you for a push, but that is because they are committed to their direction of force.

Just to share some personal experience, in the last few years of my TWC journey, I found that mirrored fighting (or what I used to call parallel stance fighting), was my favorite thing to do and pull off. At my Sifu's school in Calgary, when I arrived their in 98', and started teaching classes I found the majority of the people fought and trained from a X-arm/leg position (right lead vs right lead or visa versa), and when I started teaching them blindside mirror fighting they looked at me funny, that is until I taught them the how's and why's behind the tactic. For me I found it more difficult to fight from a X-armed position, now I know why. The structure in TWC does not allow one to absorb force or redirect oncomming energy to the COM too well (usually TWC recommends you step back and away with circle stepping, or exchange steps, etc..), since the balance is not from the ground and heel, but rather in the middle of the foot, and stepping is used rather than pivoting. When your feet leave the ground to step, the rooting is gone. Today, with my training in WSL WC, I find it much easier to deal with oncomming force and much more able to redirect it somewhere away from my COM. There's a big difference btwn the two art, and how they achieve the end result. TWC=Long triangle, longer range (as Victor stated in his brief explaination of mirrored fighting), more mobile footwork, WSL= Medium/Short triangle, closer in, tighter structure with the ability to accept incomming force and redirect it while attacking COM. I'm not saying one is absolutely better than the other. Both approaches have there time and place. For me, at this time, with the tools I have available and am developing, I feel safer closer in and on the attack, rather than further away and on the attack. That's just me though:)

James

[Ali. R]

Man, you guys are doing great posting here...:):):):D


Ali Rahim.

[Knifefighter]

You see Dale, I could explain all of it, but you wouldn't understand anyways. You don't understand our training methods or even the way we apply what we do. For example, two guys that train in WC, if they chi sau together that is a good way to test their "Wing Chun" against one another (not to mean their actual ability to fight in a free form), but specifically within a WC platform, sort of like in BJJ rolling (when you roll do you allow punching and gouges, bites etc..?). When I first went to LA, that is what I felt, total control from the other guys, with me very rarely being able to counter or attack back. I know you think this represents BS training methods, of course you would think this if you don't understand, I would too. I had a guys with only 2 yrs experience pushing me around like I was some sort of beginner, never mind the training and lessons I got from guys like Ernie or Sifu Gary. For me, that's all I need to realise that there was something effective to this method of WC. Since then the more I visit with the guys in LA, and the more I train with people here, the more I realize how well the system can work, if and when someone puts the time and effort into learning it correctly, from somone qualified to teach it.


There are several flaws in your approach:

1- You are judging things from a chi sao perspective. The problem is that chi sao is rarely expressed in actual fighting, so you cannot use that as a barometer as to whether the stuff people are using against you is actually any good. BJJ, on the other, hand, is expressed in fighting almost exactly as it is done in training.

2- You have no idea how the stuff you have "felt" compares to what else is out there unless you went out and mixed things up with boxers, MT guys, BJJer's, wrestlers and judo guys.

3- By your own admission, you don't have much experience in full contact fighting. This means that you will have no idea regarding what is effective and what is not, just by "feeling" somebody doing something to you. The only way for a person without this type of experience to determine the effectiveness of something is to see someone else do it against other highly skilled opponents in full contact situations.

[Graychuan]

I give you some props on this one, Slick...




'There are several flaws in your approach:
1- You are judging things from a chi sao perspective. The problem is that chi sao is rarely expressed in actual fighting, so you cannot use that as a barometer as to whether the stuff people are using against you is actually any good. BJJ, on the other, hand, is expressed in fighting almost exactly as it is done in training.' - Knifefighter



Now lemme give you a little something to chew on...

In any conflict that starts with two STANDING opponents hand to hand will almost always express Chi-Sao in real fighting. It is a well known fact that the hand is quicker than the eye. Magicians have made thier living for centuries on this. Now..in a fight....if you rely on just your eyes to track strikes comming at you then you will eventually fall behind...no matter how fast you own hand to eye coordination may be. But the sense of touch is a lot different. Tracking an attack by being connected to it with guarding or asking hand allows you to sense attacks earlier and not be limited and fooled by the eyes. And as long as the ging-lik of the elbows are intact its easier to be at close range and not fall behind.

This is the beauty of sensitivity training. Once bridge contact is made via Pak-Da, Darting fingers or whatever then we use Chum Kil to maintain the contact.

Now think of so many of the MMA fights you see where the one guy gets his dome rolled because he never could get to the ground with his opponent and didnt really know what he was doing on his feet.

Lemme ask you, Slick....have you ever seen a Real hand to hand fight where the opponents didnt touch hands,arms first upon contact? And im not talking about those MMA guys who like to shoot for the legs.

I think not.

~Cg~

[Ultimatewingchun]

Go back and look at the vid that Cedric did on the first post of this thread.

The problem is...the guy in blue with the initial attack from the mirrored lead should not be coming in FROM THAT DISTANCE with his main centerline directly facing forward - it should be at an angle more similar to a boxer's stance (with the main centerline facing more towards his left - about 45 degrees off) - and lines up more directly later in the game when it's safe.

If he comes in from that distance directly facing his main centerline forward - Cedric might be able to pull off the counter he shows.

But Cedric's counter can easily be countered if the initial mirrored lead attack is done the way I just described.

Why?

Because the initial attacker's centerline (and therefore his entire body alignment) is now in a better position to immediately follow with a punch to Cedric's face/head WITH HIS REAR HAND - and Cedric's counter has been neutralized. With a possible rear leg roundhouse knee (or kick) coming to Cedric's groin in the following instant.

Because Cedric has just exposed his vital targets by immediately moving to his opponent's left to counter.

Cedric's counter can only work if the other guy comes in with his centerline facing the wrong way.

What's on that vid is not how you attack with the mirrored lead blindside strategy.

[Phil Redmond]

The structure in TWC does not allow one to absorb force or redirect oncomming energy to the COM too well (usually TWC recommends you step back and away with circle stepping, or exchange steps, etc..)
Not really

since the balance is not from the ground and heel, but rather in the middle of the foot,
Never the middle of the foot.

and stepping is used rather than pivoting. When your feet leave the ground to step, the rooting is gone.
James
So people who do MMA, box, or full contact and deal with people on the move are doing it all wrong then. Shifting in place works in static demos but not in the ring. I know that personally. There are so many misconceptions about WC and TWC in particular.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"The structure in TWC does not allow one to absorb force or redirect oncomming energy to the COM too well (usually TWC recommends you step back and away with circle stepping, or exchange steps, etc.) (J)

***NOPE. It doesn't "usually" reccommend that. Only if his force is too heavy.

.....................................

"And stepping is used rather than pivoting. When your feet leave the ground to step, the rooting is gone. (J)

***FOR A MICRO-SECOND. Not a problem at all.

But what you gain is lots of speed - since the friction from the pivot can actually slow you down.
The only exception being when you're in a VERY close quarter (almost clinch) mode.

[Knifefighter]

In any conflict that starts with two STANDING opponents hand to hand will almost always express Chi-Sao in real fighting. It is a well known fact that the hand is quicker than the eye. Magicians have made thier living for centuries on this. Now..in a fight....if you rely on just your eyes to track strikes comming at you then you will eventually fall behind...no matter how fast you own hand to eye coordination may be. But the sense of touch is a lot different. Tracking an attack by being connected to it with guarding or asking hand allows you to sense attacks earlier and not be limited and fooled by the eyes. And as long as the ging-lik of the elbows are intact its easier to be at close range and not fall behind.

This is the beauty of sensitivity training. Once bridge contact is made via Pak-Da, Darting fingers or whatever then we use Chum Kil to maintain the contact.

Now think of so many of the MMA fights you see where the one guy gets his dome rolled because he never could get to the ground with his opponent and didnt really know what he was doing on his feet.

Lemme ask you, Slick....have you ever seen a Real hand to hand fight where the opponents didnt touch hands,arms first upon contact? And im not talking about those MMA guys who like to shoot for the legs.


Hey Slick-

Maybe you could point me to an example of your chi sao being "expressed" in something other than your B.S. demos.

[Phil Redmond]

"The structure in TWC does not allow one to absorb force or redirect oncomming energy to the COM too well (usually TWC recommends you step back and away with circle stepping, or exchange steps, etc.) (J)

***NOPE. It doesn't "usually" reccommend that. Only if his force is too heavy.

.....................................

"And stepping is used rather than pivoting. When your feet leave the ground to step, the rooting is gone. (J)

***FOR A MICRO-SECOND. Not a problem at all.

But what you gain is lots of speed - since the friction from the pivot can actually slow you down.
The only exception being when you're in a VERY close quarter (almost clinch) mode.

Hey Victor, you do know a little something ;)
Where do all these myths regading TWC come from? Like TWC does not allow one to absorb force or redirect oncomming energy to the COM too well.
The last seminar Sifu did in NJ disproves that idea. If a fighter can't control force coming to his COM he's SOL.
We also fight cross leg. Every situation has to be evaluated and dealt with regardless of which leg is forward. I also advocate knowing how to fight both left and right lead.
You may have to fight with a sliced, cut, or broken arm. You wouldn't want to lead with that arm so you have to be able to adapt. Don't live in a box is the saying at our school.
(Terence will smile at this one), the way to figure out what works is to fight with a resisting opponent who is trying knock the cr*p out of you. Otherwise all you have is strawman demos. Every fight I've ever had was with someone bigger and stronger than me. I've never lost or run from a fight. I appreciate others preferences but if what I do works for me I'll only change if I find something better. I do Wing Chun but I'm a martial artist first. I'll use whatever works.

[sihing]

Well, it seems like everyone has stated their case, and in the end I think we have all learned more about one anothers way of doing things. IMO this is the idea behind the forum we have here, and although we don't always agree, we still keep the respect between those involved in the discussion.

Good stuff:)

James

[Phil Redmond]

Well, it seems like everyone has stated their case, and in the end I think we have all learned more about one anothers way of doing things. IMO this is the idea behind the forum we have here, and although we don't always agree, we still keep the respect between those involved in the discussion.

Good stuff:)

James
This thread is a lot better than the my dad can beat your dad threads for sure. It's more important to become a better martial artist with no ego than anything else.

[Ali. R]

This thread is a lot better than the my dad can beat your dad threads for sure. It's more important to become a better martial artist with no ego than anything else.


Great post!!!:):):)

[Ali. R]

Go back and look at the vid that Cedric did on the first post of this thread.

The problem is...the guy in blue with the initial attack from the mirrored lead should not be coming in FROM THAT DISTANCE with his main centerline directly facing forward - it should be at an angle more similar to a boxer's stance (with the main centerline facing more towards his left - about 45 degrees off) - and lines up more directly later in the game when it's safe.

If he comes in from that distance directly facing his main centerline forward - Cedric might be able to pull off the counter he shows.

But Cedric's counter can easily be countered if the initial mirrored lead attack is done the way I just described.

Why?

Because the initial attacker's centerline (and therefore his entire body alignment) is now in a better position to immediately follow with a punch to Cedric's face/head WITH HIS REAR HAND - and Cedric's counter has been neutralized. With a possible rear leg roundhouse knee (or kick) coming to Cedric's groin in the following instant.

Because Cedric has just exposed his vital targets by immediately moving to his opponent's left to counter.

Cedric's counter can only work if the other guy comes in with his centerline facing the wrong way.

What's on that vid is not how you attack with the mirrored lead blindside strategy.


That's if one just stand there and do nothing, then that could happen to anyone...

Hey VICTOR MY NAME IS 'Ali'... or should I call you Vicki or Victoria, which one do you pefer Vicki or Victoria, I Know It’s hard for you to act civil but give it a shot...

Take Care,


Ali Rahim.

[Wayfaring]

OK - flanking, or blind side, or whatever other labels used.

You can step to the outside and pivot to regain your structural integrity. Or you can set up a flanking position outside of range and enter with advantage. However, the one thing I don't see happening is to be able to step to the outside and enter at the same time. I think you can't move to the outside and move in simultaneously without losing your structure. (Edit: you can maintain structure in transition, but the idea of closing distance and that of flanking are something very hard to do simultaneously).

And to align this with other fighters arts, both muy thai and boxing use a flanking step in conjunction with a lead jab.

Please explain to me your understanding of moving to the outside and moving in, the structure to maintain in the process, and other significant points.

TWC,HFY,MMA,WSL, I don't really care what lineage but am really interested in these concepts.

[Ali. R]

If one can’t dissolve force directly, then one’s stances is sh*t, energy should be redirected at bridge contact going straight into the floor…


http://www.detroitwingchun.com/kenart1.htm

[YungChun]

However, the one thing I don't see happening is to be able to step to the outside and enter at the same time. I think you can't move to the outside and move in simultaneously without losing your structure.

Wow..

At it's most basic, the footwork in WCK does exactly this using the triangle..

If you apply the classical footwork from the jong and chisao you have a neutral starting point, and then a step in.. When the step in is done you are moving offline, and then aligning the body at the target.. By moving from a neutral stance to the chum kiu stance you are making a small or larger flank and at the same time lining up your power on him.. Same idea seen in many other systems or styles.. Of course, there is more footwork in the system, the bik ma, biu ma steps, turning and moving from and through different positions, leg shapes, kwai sat, etc, but at the simplest you have the triangle with small flanks..

[Wayfaring]

When the step in is done you are moving offline, and then aligning the body at the target.. By moving from a neutral stance to the chum kiu stance you are making a small or larger flank and at the same time lining up your power on him..

That is exactly what I was saying. When you step in you move offline. In the middle of the step to the outside, if you also are closing distance with your opponent, what principles do you use to maintain your structure?

The chum kiu stance is turning force coming in. It is not closing distance and turning force.
Oh, and Wow.

[Wayfaring]

If one can’t dissolve force directly, then one’s stances is sh*t, energy should be redirected at bridge contact going straight into the floor…


In your video, when your opponent took the initial step, he did not have structure within the step. He was not in a position to redirect energy directed to the bridge anywhere. You could capitalize on an inner line and turn the facing and penetrate his space and take the center.

If you are counterattacking a flanking step, and catch it before it lands, you have many more options.

There is a way to have structure while flanking, and it has to do with the alignment of hip elbow and knee.

I am curious how other people see this and how they preserve this without giving up space like your opponent did in the video.

[YungChun]

That is exactly what I was saying.

You said:


I think you can't move to the outside and move in simultaneously without losing your structure.

You can move offline and in and align your body in one movement..



When you step you move offline. In the middle of the step to the outside, if you also are closing distance with your opponent, what principles do you use to maintain your triangle structure?

I'm trying to maintain power generation and continuity of attack, while evading and connecting..

Not a triangle structure, per se..

[Wayfaring]

You can move offline and in and align your body in one movement..

I modified that statement slightly. Ali's video shows the difficulty of doing so in the demonstration. So how do you do it correctly? Describe, etc.



I'm trying to maintain power generation and continuity of attack, while evading and connecting..

So you're chain punching while stepping in and to the side?



Not a triangle structure, per se..

You were the one that said "the footwork in WCK does exactly this using the triangle".

[Ali. R]

If you are counterattacking a flanking step, and catch it before it lands, you have many more options.

Many, many option more then one can say...



There is a way to have structure while flanking, and it has to do with the alignment of hip elbow and knee.

Sure you can, but when the legs go one way and hands goes another, you will need more time too adjust to take one’s center, rather then one who’s feet follows his or her hands…


Ali Rahim.

[YungChun]

So how do you do it correctly? Describe, etc.

Am I crazy? It's right in the jong. When you step in when doing chi sao you are:

Moving off line or moving the centerline.. From neutral stance

Aligning your body.. Into chum kiu ma

Attacking/releasing power... Bik ma..


So you're chain punching while stepping in and to the side?

I don't use the term chain punching because it makes it sound like a technique.. IMO it's not.. WCK does indeed have punching but not chain punching, which to me is a drill to teach folks how to use two hands to do two actions at once and flow from one punch to another..


You were the one that said "the footwork in WCK does exactly this using the triangle".
I said triangle footwork not structure.

I can send you a link to some video of this kind of thing if you wish..

[Wayfaring]

Sure you can, but when the legs go one way and hands goes another, you will need more time too adjust to take one’s center, rather then one who’s feet follows his or her hands…


OK - so in a flanking step it's hands follow feet, not feet follow hands. That works too. Unless your hands are chasing something else and offline with your feet. Then you lose your structure and space, like your video guy.

One of my main points or lines to discuss and follow is that the flanking step is a turning motion, not a penetrating or pursuit motion. It works best with turning incoming force. Not pursuit or taking space.

So I want to have an outside flank on my opponent, 1 hand on 2, and with proper range to attack.

How do you set it up, and how do you get it done?

[Wayfaring]

OK - Phil's video here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgIXqSBYszo

An observation is that the flank step also corresponds to an attack to cover it while moving in. Is that a correct observation from a TWC perspective?

And how does that compares to a boxer/muy thai fighter's flank step and lead jab? What are differences?

[Wayfaring]

Am I crazy? It's right in the jong. When you step in when doing chi sao you are:

Moving off line or moving the centerline.. From neutral stance

Aligning your body.. Into chum kiu ma

Attacking/releasing power... Bik ma..

You're not crazy. Everything in wing chun is right in the jong.
So you're Moy Yat background. Forgive my misspeaking ahead of time and butchering of chinese terms.

You first train this in the chi sao platform in luk ma, right? Moving the horse?
You feel for weakness in the bridge, and move the horse to take that space?
Do you find yourself moving into a flanking position there turning incoming force? Or pursuing a weak side bridge?



I don't use the term chain punching because it makes it sound like a technique.. IMO it's not.. WCK does indeed have punching but not chain punching, which to me is a drill to teach folks how to use two hands to do two actions at once and flow from one punch to another..

We were talking about how to cover a flank step. Chain punch, single punch, whatever. How do you cover up the pursuit step when it also is to the outside?



I said triangle footwork not structure.

There are all sorts of triangles in wing chun.



I can send you a link to some video of this kind of thing if you wish..
Video links on this forum are always appreciated and treated with respect.
;)

[YungChun]

So I want to have an outside flank on my opponent, 1 hand on 2, and with proper range to attack.

How do you set it up, and how do you get it done?
You can try to flank your opponent but it has to be timed.. He will move..

IMO the flank is more useful when you are moving into his space.. WCK tactics don't normally have you just stand in front of the opponent.. You step in and off and in and then follow, gain contact, fold him, etc..

You can't normally set up a particular condition other than a clash perhaps, it depends on how they react.. The best way to "set things up" IMO is to attack with good timing and distance-- fill space, connect and press..

[Askari Hodari]

I like that clip. I think that lateral movement is very important and having an opposing stance may enhance that.

AH

[YungChun]

You first train this in the chi sao platform in luk ma, right

Neutral front stance.. I guess.


You feel for weakness in the bridge, and move the horse to take that space?
Do you find yourself moving into a flanking position there turning incoming force? Or pursuing a weak side bridge?

Let's say tan sao.. So say you penetrate with Tan, as this happens you drop the elbow, as the elbow drops the leg moves in; as the leg moves in and the elbow drops you are also angling; when the elbow has dropped the angle off is complete and you are moving in..Bang--you hit them with the Tan, should be one fluid movement that creates a small flank...follow with whatever..



Video links on this forum are always appreciated and treated with respect.

Right which is why I'll PM you the link... :)

[Wayfaring]

Let's say tan sao.. So say you penetrate with Tan, as this happens you drop the elbow, as the elbow drops the leg moves in; as the leg moves in and the elbow drops you are also angling; when the elbow has dropped the angle off is complete and you are moving in..Bang--you hit them with the Tan, should be one fluid movement that creates a small flank...follow with whatever..

Right which is why I'll PM you the link... :)

Honestly, when sparring with people with good hands like boxers or muy thai guys, penetrating with a tan sau doesn't really come into the picture.

PM me the link. I'll use it for further discussion purposes and not disclose it.

[YungChun]

Honestly, when sparring with people with good hands like boxers or muy thai guys, penetrating with a tan sau doesn't really come into the picture.
Well you were talking about the chi sao no?

If the concepts used with Tan can't be applied in fighting then why use it at all? The general concepts used in tan, the angle and use of the elbow for applying force from incontact as well as learning how to hit with it with the correct angle and elbow position, coordination with movement and so on is consistent IMO in fighting, same for any other movement or tool..

[Ali. R]

OK - so in a flanking step it's hands follow feet, not feet follow hands. That works too. Unless your hands are chasing something else and offline with your feet. Then you lose your structure and space, like your video guy.

One of my main points or lines to discuss and follow is that the flanking step is a turning motion, not a penetrating or pursuit motion. It works best with turning incoming force. Not pursuit or taking space.

So I want to have an outside flank on my opponent, 1 hand on 2, and with proper range to attack.

How do you set it up, and how do you get it done?


He lost his space because I took it from him when he tried to move…

He made a move that didn’t connect his center I made movement that did… If you look closely he (‘Redmond’) did not control his opponent’s center but pined his elbow on the attack, he only started controlling one’s center when he took a step in because he had too realigned his feet to do so (the long way home) … All one has to do is relax ones arms and don’t stress out, then one can move his feet when one’s elbow is trapped…

The guy basically let himself get trapped…

If one doesn’t ask or use forward energy (mon sao) on the top triangle, then it would be easy too plant your opponent’s front foot into the ground… Because when one does not ask with the “mon sao” or that type of energy in any way, his elbow will get controlled, (if one can control the elbow, then one can also control their opponent’s technique)…

But if one uses forward energy correctly, his elbow will no get controlled, then he will be able too move his feet… Again he did not do his flank attack from reverse side but from a mirrored “demo” position (see my point), because it really won’t work no matter how hard one try…

The best way too beat the so-called flank is too never mirror your opponent's stance…


Ali Rahim.

[Ali. R]

Notice how I’m asking (forward energy) on my clip…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feLvs4-q6tE


Ali Rahim.

[Phil Redmond]

He made a move that didn’t connect his center I made movement that did… If you look closely he (‘Redmond’) did not control his opponent’s center but pined his elbow on the attack, he only started controlling one’s center when he took a step in because he had too realigned his feet to do so (the long way home) .
I moved with what I felt from the contact. (Chi Sao) ;)


… All one has to do is relax ones arms and don’t stress out, then one can move his feet when one’s elbow is trapped….
I moved with what I felt from the contact. (Chi Sao) ;)


The guy basically let himself get trapped
That's what I do. ;) ;) ;)


. . . because it really won’t work no matter how hard one try…

I tend to not say what another can do. People have various skill levels. The Dutch fighter Remy Bonjasky is known for his flying knees from long distances. Other fighters know this and train to avoid it. But he still pulls it off. It's all about the setup.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqfDO2Hjeh8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4F-5Wpo9oBM
Those who can successfully perform parallel leg or cross leg techniques would beg to differ. As the old saying goes. I can show you better than I can tell you.

[Ali. R]

I moved with what I felt from the contact. (Chi Sao) ;)

I feel you, cuz I do the same… :):cool::)

Ali Rahim.

[k gledhill]

Honestly, when sparring with people with good hands like boxers or muy thai guys, penetrating with a tan sau doesn't really come into the picture.

PM me the link. I'll use it for further discussion purposes and not disclose it.

tan sao is just a training position to develop something....it isnt what we freefight with, but we freefight with what it makes us do ...like jumsao.....;)

[Ultimatewingchun]

OK - Phil's video here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgIXqSBYszo

An observation is that the flank step also corresponds to an attack to cover it while moving in. Is that a correct observation from a TWC perspective?

And how does that compares to a boxer/muy thai fighter's flank step and lead jab? What are differences?


***WELL for one thing, Phil was not using a lead jab in his sequence. That changes the dynamics quite a bit.

..............................................

"Honestly, when sparring with people with good hands like boxers or muy thai guys, penetrating with a tan sau doesn't really come into the picture." (Wayfaring)

***BECAUSE of the distance. You can't "penetrate" with tan, imo. You use it after penetration has been effected by somebody - either you or him. It's efficiency is when you're working very close range, ie.- you intercept/block/deflect a straight punch or a backfist of his with tan.

You don't actually penetrate his space outright with tan - otherwise you're inviting a hooking/round punch around your tan structure and into a hard target.

................................................

"If you look closely he (‘Redmond’) did not control his opponent’s center but pinned his elbow on the attack, he only started controlling one’s center when he took a step in because he had too realigned his feet to do so (the long way home) …?

***BECAUSE YOU HAVE TO GET THERE FIRST. If you want to "get home" - you need to work your way in - he's not going to give it to you. And pinning an elbow is one way of working the critical distance INWARD towards his hard targets, ie.- controllling and attacking his center.

.........................................

"All one has to do is relax ones arms and don’t stress out, then one can move his feet when one’s elbow is trapped." ?

***IT'S NOT your feet you have to worry about at that moment - it's his punches. If he's pinning your elbow - he's already close enough to hit you with something in a micro-second. Time to do some hands and let the feet follow....If you know the hands to do. :cool:

[Ali. R]

***WELL for one thing, Phil was not using a lead jab in his sequence. That changes the dynamics quite a bit.


But not the “math”… ;)


Ali Rahim.

[duende]

One of my main points or lines to discuss and follow is that the flanking step is a turning motion, not a penetrating or pursuit motion. It works best with turning incoming force. Not pursuit or taking space.


Exactly! There's a BIG difference between someone turning or pivoting on you, and someone chasing down your center (even after you take a flanking step) and bulldozing you.

[Ali. R]

Exactly! There's a BIG difference between someone turning or pivoting on you, and someone chasing down your center (even after you take a flanking step) and bulldozing you.


My Man!!! :):cool::)


Ali Rahim.

[Ali. R]

I would love too see someone demo the flank attack in reverse stance, nothing serious just a walk through you know, “step by step”…:):cool::)


Ali Rahim.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Originally Posted by Wayfaring
"One of my main points or lines to discuss and follow is that the flanking step is a turning motion, not a penetrating or pursuit motion. It works best with turning incoming force. Not pursuit or taking space."

"Exactly! There's a BIG difference between someone turning or pivoting on you, and someone chasing down your center (even after you take a flanking step) and bulldozing you." (duende)


***OH, BUT IT CAN BE a penetrating energy that BEGINS to attack and pressure his center if the pin on the elbow that accompanies the flanking step is directed toward his center-of-mass.

And as I said earlier, it's basically a straight line attack just to the outside of his lead leg and lead arm - and the "turning" is only done on contact with his lead elbow, ie.- the energy/force from your gum/pak sao turns the corner, so to speak, into his COM - even though your body moved straight up on a different line. (But your lead hip and shoulder will turn on contact with the pak/gum in the same direction - thereby adding power/force/energy to the pinning move). Not hard to do at all, really - and it does provide a "pursuit/taking space" type of effect.

That's the whole idea of a "pin".

[Ali. R]

***OH, BUT IT CAN BE a penetrating energy that BEGINS to attack and pressure his center if the pin on the elbow that accompanies the flanking step is directed toward his center-of-mass.




You step outside to flank and attack ones center of mass?:confused:
Is that just by stepping in or lopping the elbow then moving in on the center?

I’m not sure of that, but I never seen it demonstrated or used let alone in a reveres stance…


Ali Rahim.

[k gledhill]

reverse stance ? i need pictures :D

[Buddha_Fist]

There you go. Notice the hip support and subtle elbow position!

;)

[Ali. R]

I should have been more clear, want I’m trying too say is; when one stands with the right side up and his opponent does the same… :)

I need too slow down I’m typing way too fast, sorry about the typos …


Ali Rahim.

[Phil Redmond]

Here are several examples of how fighting on the blind side, and from a mirrored (parallel) stance is effective and Why it is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_EdolnVDC8

[Ali. R]

Here are several examples of how fighting on the blind side, and from a mirrored (parallel) stance is effective and Why it is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_EdolnVDC8


Cool, now try it right side up against someone who's also standing right side up…:)


Ali Rahim.

[Ultimatewingchun]

TWC can fight from either position. So what?

That doesn't change the fact that a distinct advantage can be gained from a parallel matched leads position.

[Ali. R]

TWC can fight from either position. So what?

That doesn't change the fact that a distinct advantage can be gained from a parallel matched leads position.

that's great, I would love too see it... :)


If one stands in a position and you know that they favor the outside or the flank, just take it away from them by not standing mirrored… force them to come fight your fight, in something they know nothing about, and that could work the other way... But by standing mirrored he is to your outside, no need to rush your technique just keep facing by simply pivoting and throwing punches… It was said by a top student of ‘Chueng’s himself; that they are maximizing thier distance...


WHILE TRYING TO MAXIMIZE MY CHANCES OF NOT GETTING HIT BACK.

If one wants too really hurt another he or she would be forced to come up the middle and do something that they do no work on or practices consistently (going up the middle), because one is staying away from their opponents other hand… What ever happen to; “yut fook yee” or "da" one hand traps two?


Ali Rahim.

[k gledhill]

There you go. Notice the hip support and subtle elbow position!

;)


nice structure , casual hidden intent :D icky thump

[Sihing73]

Hello,

Sifu Chow teaches us to utilize what he refers to as the power zone. Essentially the power zone is between your shoulders where you have the most power. An objective in our approach is to keep the opponent within out power zone which not only provides maximum power ;) but also permits us to hit with either hand. If we can remove ourselves from our opponents power zone then this limits their ability to attack us. For example if you were to strike me with a right punch and I were to step to your right and angle, you would be within my power zone and I would be outside of yours. You can hit me, however, you would most likely need to step or move in order to do so.

Another advantage in stepping to the outside and angling is that you can move up and actually get behind the opponent and apply and choke, take down etc. There really is no reason to believe this would not work or be ineffective.

I would agree that fighting on the inside or up the middle usually requires more skill while fighting from the outside is a bit safer. Since I like to cheat and win I would opt to fight from a position which permits me an advantage. If you fight from the outside you force you opponent to adapt to your position and can in essence force them to fight your fight.

[Phil Redmond]

We train to fight in both cross and parallel stances since we understand that no one is going to cooperate with us in a real situation. Looks like I'll be making a clip showing some cross legged attacks tonight during class. . . ;)

[Phil Redmond]

Cool, now try it right side up against someone who's also standing right side up…:)


Ali Rahim.

We actually fight in our school with people outside of our system. What we do works. If it works there's no need to change it because some else doesn't agree with it. I see people do many things that I wouldn't do. If it works for them who am I to say it's no good?

[Ali. R]

Hello,

Sifu Chow teaches us to utilize what he refers to as the power zone. Essentially the power zone is between your shoulders where you have the most power. An objective in our approach is to keep the opponent within out power zone which not only provides maximum power ;) but also permits us to hit with either hand. If we can remove ourselves from our opponents power zone then this limits their ability to attack us. For example if you were to strike me with a right punch and I were to step to your right and angle, you would be within my power zone and I would be outside of yours. You can hit me, however, you would most likely need to step or move in order to do so.

Another advantage in stepping to the outside and angling is that you can move up and actually get behind the opponent and apply and choke, take down etc. There really is no reason to believe this would not work or be ineffective.

I would agree that fighting on the inside or up the middle usually requires more skill while fighting from the outside is a bit safer. Since I like to cheat and win I would opt to fight from a position which permits me an advantage. If you fight from the outside you force you opponent to adapt to your position and can in essence force them to fight your fight.

If one is smart and have a fighter’s patience, he would not chase one who is to his outside, he would just pivot –or- should pivot as taught to most professional fighter (not speaking of my abilities, only on what I know as fact) there is really not that much danger if your center is not under attack, because all one have to do is ask with “mon sao” energy, keeping the hands or arms from being lop –or- trapped. And if one’s center is not under attack, one can still swing back with power and balance…


Ali Rahim.

[Ali. R]

We train to fight in both cross and parallel stances since we understand that no one is going to cooperate with us in a real situation. Looks like I'll be making a clip showing some cross legged attacks tonight during class. . . ;)


:);):)

I know what’s coming, and it's what we call "the back lop" or "lin lop" cross grab lop... Then it will take even longer for you too get there, because you’re lopping and going to the outside, and if you’re opponent moves his or her feet they will have a greater chance of stopping it, if they only move their feet with forward energy and chum…


Ali Rahim.

[Sihing73]

If one is smart and have a fighter’s patience, he would not chase one who is to his outside, he would just pivot –or- should pivot as taught to most professional fighter (not speaking of my abilities, only on what I know as fact) there is really not that much danger if your center is not under attack, because all one have to do is ask with “mon sao” energy, keeping the hands or arms from being lop –or- trapped. And if one’s center is not under attack, one can still swing back with power and balance…


Ali Rahim.

Hello,

Who said we chase hands? You know what assumptions do to us, right?

The point is to limit the opponents opportunity to attack while capitalizing on your own. I always thought this was a smart way to fight, are you saying it is not?

[Phil Redmond]

:);):)

I know what’s coming, and it's what we call "the back lop" or "lin lop" cross grab lop... Then it will take even longer for you too get there, because you’re lopping and going to the outside, and if you’re opponent moves his or her feet they will have a greater chance of stopping it, if they only move their feet with forward energy and chum…


Ali Rahim.

You don't win the cigar. But since you know what's in my mind there's no need to post a clip. (But I will anyway . . lol)

[Ali. R]

:
Hello,

Who said we chase hands? You know what assumptions do to us, right?

The point is to limit the opponents opportunity to attack while capitalizing on your own. I always thought this was a smart way to fight, are you saying it is not?


I see your point, I really do…

I’m saying if one is not taking over one’s balance, then one would have a strong chance of stopping their shots, and staying to the outside would not keep one from doing that if one continue too move his or her feet and with "asking" and "chum" energy…

Ali Rahim.

[Ali. R]

You don't win the cigar. But since you know what's in my mind there's no need to post a clip. (But I will anyway . . lol)


Cool!!! :)


Ali Rahim.

[Bluesjammer]

In YOUR initial video, your opponent poorly represented TWC "blind side" fighting from a parallel or what you call mirrored stance by doing a Pak Sau with his REAR hand. DUH!

Watch the last post by Redmond and you will see him and Keith Mazza checking the opponent's lead arm with their lead arm, so that the punch with the rear hand can interrupt if necessary and block. So you are busting TWC for doing something they don't do.

And for you to say, "I’m saying if one is not taking over one’s balance, then one would have a strong chance of stopping their shots, and staying to the outside would not keep one from doing that if one continue too move his or her feet and with "asking" and "chum" energy…"

Did you not see Redmond and Mazza taking the balance? I did? How about everyone else? So, they DID take the balance. Why MAKE UP a FALSE scenario that TOTALLY MISREPRESENTS the Video?

And it not just the "staying to the outside..." that makes it effective. It is the taking of the balance which is clearly demonstrated when the opponent tries to PIVOT in and COULD NOT!

Now if you want to say that the opponent in Redmond's video was poorly representing YOUR point, I think anyone who saw your initial video would have to say you are incorrect.

And while "Attacking the center" is great, there are PLENTY of effective pressure points on the side.

So YOU are saying that you want a 5 foot 4 inch, 120 pound woman to STAY inside with a guy as big as you???

ABSURD!!

I'm not really trying to be argumentative, but I have been following this thread, and I finally had to point out that you have YET to properly represent the "Fight from the Blind Side" principle of TWC.

The video Redmond posted CLEARLY shows the effectiveness of the "Mirror" stance, and you then say, "now try it right side up against someone who's also standing right side up…"

Please first ADMIT you are WRONG, then go off on a DIFFERENT Tangent.

[Bluesjammer]

Your biggest fan is back!

And I watched the Video of the January fights at Kerry Roops, and I did not see your Buddy Dave there.

Sorry to go off topic people, but I am back Ali, and I am going to keep you honest.

And your opponent in your video gave you his elbow on a freakin' silver platter.

Nice misrepresentation there.

And I loved that Seal call noise you made. Was that Chi?

I LOVE how Redmond is posting videoS (plural) every time you make an unfounded or incorrect statement. And that is to his credit, since your mutilation of the English language makes CLEARLY understanding what your point (if ther IS one) might be!

Yeah, yeah. We all should get along.

Bunk!

You made a statement about TWC that Redmond and Mazza CLEARLY disproved, and you don't have the integrity to admit that you have NO Understanding of TWC or fighting.

I would LOVE to see someone who is NOT as big as you, pull off ANYTHING you say against a guy your size.

Stay on the INSIDE!!!


HAAAAAA!

[Ali. R]

:
Your biggest fan is back!

And I watched the Video of the January fights at Kerry Roops, and I did not see your Buddy Dave there.

Sorry to go off topic people, but I am back Ali, and I am going to keep you honest.

And your opponent in your video gave you his elbow on a freakin' silver platter.

Nice misrepresentation there.

And I loved that Seal call noise you made. Was that Chi?

I LOVE how Redmond is posting videoS (plural) every time you make an unfounded or incorrect statement. And that is to his credit, since your mutilation of the English language makes CLEARLY understanding what your point (if ther IS one) might be!

Yeah, yeah. We all should get along.

Bunk!

You made a statement about TWC that Redmond and Mazza CLEARLY disproved, and you don't have the integrity to admit that you have NO Understanding of TWC or fighting.

I would LOVE to see someone who is NOT as big as you, pull off ANYTHING you say against a guy your size.

Stay on the INSIDE!!!


HAAAAAA!



Don’t see what you see,, and I’m almost sure no one else sees it also, or it would have been brought out a long time ago,, unless the wagon begins right about now…

:
Your biggest fan is back!!

:D:cool::D

Strength or force never plays a role in my abilities…


Ali Rahim

[Ali. R]

I would LOVE to see someone who is NOT as big as you, pull off ANYTHING you say against a guy your size.

Stay on the INSIDE!!!


HAAAAAA!


Here you go… :cool::D:cool:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkKJv4XdF_k


Ali Rahim.

[Ali. R]

And while "Attacking the center" is great, there are PLENTY of effective pressure points on the side.



In all my studies of “chi kung” and “dim mak”, all of the most and serious pressure points are located in the center… :eek::cool::eek:


Ali Rahim.

[Graychuan]

Here you go… :cool::D:cool:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkKJv4XdF_k


Ali Rahim.



Grados is pretty **** skilled.

~Cg~

[Ali. R]

Grados is pretty **** skilled.

~Cg~



Notice, he did every thing that I said too do, and it was clear that he was never in danger because his center was not under attack… By simply moving his feet and holding structure with “chum” in his stance, and with asking energy he wasted no time, while controlling the bigger man’s balance…

A lot quicker then the flank to me…


Ali Rahim.

[Graychuan]

Notice, he did every thing that I said too do, and it was clear that he was never in danger because his center was not under attack… By simply moving his feet and holding structure with “chum” in his stance, and with asking energy he wasted no time, while controlling the bigger man’s balance…

A lot quicker then the flank to me…


Ali Rahim.

Ok so I watched it again...Im actually watching now and except for the one part at about 20-23 seconds in (he was in the stance Phil describes) Sifu Grados is either in YGKYM or he is steppin in with the same footwork you describe, ALI. Grados seems like he almost PREFERS to be in the middle. :eek:
Seems his atacker likes going the middle too. :eek:

~Cg~

[Ali. R]

Good posts, Bluesjammer. :)

But I'm afraid you're probably wasting your time if you think that this guy's ever going to admit anything. Even if the facts are plain to see - he'll never acknowledge it. :eek:


Is that clear enough for you… One should be happy it’s not one of my clips, or one would be really sad… :o


Ali Rahim.