top five most destructive lions roar techniques

[htowndragon]

(in no particular order)
1. chyuun (if you want to put tsap/chaap as variant here, it falls under here too)
2. pao (including all variants, short uppercut, pok yik pao)
3. kup
4. gwa
5. hook punch (different lines call it different names)

[hskwarrior]

:eek: YOU BITER!!!!!

[Lama Pai Sifu]

(in no particular order)
1. chyuun (if you want to put tsap/chaap as variant here, it falls under here too)
2. pao (including all variants, short uppercut, pok yik pao)
3. kup
4. gwa
5. hook punch (different lines call it different names)


Pak Yick PO is not a variation of Pao. It is a PO.

As in Faahn Po, Pak Yik Po, Liu Po, etc.

A great technique in all variations, and certainly one of my favorites, but alas...not a Pao.

I would take out Gwa from your list and add So Choih. Then our lists would be the same. :)

[Lama Pai Sifu]

:eek: YOU BITER!!!!!

True, true.

BUT it was a bite-worthy thread. I used to get bored of many of your threads, especially your lineage wars with certain individuals, but your threads have been excellent lately. If this forum was to stick to stuff like this, we'd all be better off and probably get along better.

Peace Frank.

[diego]

:eek: YOU BITER!!!!!

well if you want to get all technical...i beleive you are doing his peoples art, so who the biter:eek:

[hskwarrior]

well then we all are biters, except for me:D

[jo]

(in no particular order)
1. chyuun (if you want to put tsap/chaap as variant here, it falls under here too)
2. pao (including all variants, short uppercut, pok yik pao)
3. kup
4. gwa
5. hook punch (different lines call it different names)

Are you referring to Steven Richard's (of the UK) brand of "LionsRoar!"?

- jo

[cjurakpt]

(in no particular order)
1. chyuun (if you want to put tsap/chaap as variant here, it falls under here too)

not to jump all over you, but I wouldn't characterize chaap as a variant of chyuhn, but rather a different category altogether: as I understand it the angle is different (e.g. - chyuhn shoots straight out from about the hip level, chaap comes from a bit higher, arcing downwards as it comes out), the footwork/stance is different (chyuhn usually has the opp. foot "lead" although the body is turned to a 45 deg. angle, versus chaap typically same side leg forward), the striking surface is different (chyuhn contacts with the extended proximal interphalange joint of the middle finger reinforced by the two on either side; chaap is more like a standard fist or "leopardpaw" configuration) and the set-up is different (e.g. - biin --> chyuhn vs. pon/deng --> chaap)

anyway, just an observation, discuss...

and as far as most deadly/destructive, I have only one thing to say:

BIU!!! (have to say it like a cranky old Toisan yahn, and then cackle afterwards)

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Although Chaap Choih has several variations, depending on the instructor/lineage, it in NO WAY can be considered the same/same family as Chuyhn Choih. Not even a little bit.

And as Chris J. pointed out, it's far beyond just the fact that their striking surfaces are completely different...

And BIU is no joke. I don't think there is another style that uses Biu the same as Lama. I don't even know if the Haap Ga or Baahk Hok people use it the same!

[Gru Bianca]

And BIU is no joke. I don't think there is another style that uses Biu the same as Lama. I don't even know if the Haap Ga or Baahk Hok people use it the same![/QUOTE]


Sorry, not too sure whether for BIU you are referring to BIU JEE, if that is what you are referring to, then don't know the way you use it in Lama, but plenty in Pak Hok, especially Tit Lin.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Oh, I think it is the Haap Ga people that don't use it the same...my mistake.

How many fingers do you use, when you do Biu in White Crane?

[htowndragon]

i got the chaap under chyuun categorization from david ross site.

we actually call it pok yik SAU as in hand, the pok yik po or whatever is once again from you guys site

in our line of hop ga we have certain hands empasized that others dont, such as gwa and chaap

[Gru Bianca]

Oh, I think it is the Haap Ga people that don't use it the same...my mistake.

How many fingers do you use, when you do Biu in White Crane?

No problem at all.

As per the fingers, based on what I've studied till now basically two and four fingers.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

That is exactly what I mean; we use, in Lama, a one finger Biu. We have 2 and 4 fingers as well, but they are all used differently from the single finger.

I'll film it soon.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

i got the chaap under chyuun categorization from david ross site.

we actually call it pok yik SAU as in hand, the pok yik po or whatever is once again from you guys site

in our line of hop ga we have certain hands empasized that others dont, such as gwa and chaap

Yes, it is Pak Yik Po - but it's not in the same grouping as the Pao Choihs.

[htowndragon]

my sifu had me copy some notes on the different hands, pok yee sau was one of the pau choihs

[Gru Bianca]

That is exactly what I mean; we use, in Lama, a one finger Biu. We have 2 and 4 fingers as well, but they are all used differently from the single finger.

I'll film it soon.

Interesting,

as for now (referred to what I've studied so far), I did also study an application of one finger BIU, but I am not too sure if it falls in the same catergory. It is definitely a finger technique and it is found in the Siu Ng Yin

[CLFLPstudent]

With both "Most Destructive Techniques" threads, no one mentioned any kicks....

To me, it would be Chyuhn Sum Teui, especially if you can incorporate a grab /pull with it.

Faahn Po and Liu Po, while not as 'destructive' are very sneaky attacks.

I do remember when starting out thinking Faahn Po was called Faan Po Pao due to the combination :p


-David

[hskwarrior]

in my opinion, kicks can get you in trouble unless the person you are kicking in on their back knocked out or covering up.

nah kicks are good, but you won't always have the opportunity in the streets to use an effective kick. you can't kick if you're jammed up.

[CLFLPstudent]

in my opinion, kicks can get you in trouble unless the person you are kicking in on their back knocked out or covering up.

nah kicks are good, but you won't always have the opportunity in the streets to use an effective kick. you can't kick if you're jammed up.

Well to be fair, a lot of the techniques given on the two threads leave you open if not thrown correctly, or under the right circumstances.

Sow Choih ( Sao/So pick your favorite) can leave you extremely wide open if not done at the right time. Same goes for kicks. But I thought the idea of the thread was what is "destructive" when used at the correct time.

Just MHO :rolleyes:

-David

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Here's a short clip of my Sifu, Chan Tai-San, demonstrating some Lama basics.

I'm posting some good clips later on as well, so subscribe and check back!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jq8u73wIktQ

[hskwarrior]

at the 32/33 sec mark, he does what looked like a yum chop, but it was very very similar to how my lineage applies our poon kiu yum chop.

actually, i saw a few things in there that my lineage does.

[jdhowland]

Of course, the original question is unanswerable unless we are prepared to "destroy" something in order to test our claims.

If you substitute the word "favorite" for "most destructive" I would pretty much agree with the first list but would substitute a Hop Ga straight backfist for gwa cheui. White Crane's "deng" (nailing) is also powerful but best used when the opponent is defenseless.

Lama, in all its forms, is packed with grappling/wrestling techniques, many of which are effected with the basic "punches." I have a theory that the whole "long hand" designation of these arts was either created to mislead the general public or was mistakenly attributed to lama kyuhn by non-practitioners who were judging by the appearances of the sets. Long arm extension does not equate with long distance technique.

As for the chaap cheui/chyun cheui discussion, I'd like to add two differences that apply to their respective systems as I've learned them: chaap is generated with more use of the triceps muscle (added to the force of body rotation) and the hand may or may not rotate. The old style chyun uses a similar body rotation but the arm stays more relaxed in transit (what I call a ballistic strike) and the forearm does not rotate in those styles not influenced by Siu Lahm.

[htowndragon]

once again, the "chaap" under "chyuun" comment was based off of david ross's site. some lines MAY categorize both of them as straight line attacks, but in my line, they are separate hands. generated from different angles, but the path it follows, is both in a straight line rather than circular

[jdhowland]

And BIU is no joke. I don't think there is another style that uses Biu the same as Lama. I don't even know if the Haap Ga or Baahk Hok people use it the same!


We have a four-finger biu in a couple of our Hop Ga sets that seems identical to that in White Crane's tit lin kyuhn. The one-finger gam gong jih feels very different and requires much more training.

[htowndragon]

"biu" belongs in hop ga's 12 short hands

[Gru Bianca]

Here's a short clip of my Sifu, Chan Tai-San, demonstrating some Lama basics.

I'm posting some good clips later on as well, so subscribe and check back!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jq8u73wIktQ

Very nice indeed, staggering resemblances with our Pak Hok Pai.

[Gru Bianca]

[QUOTE=................. and the forearm does not rotate in those styles not influenced by Siu Lahm.[/QUOTE]

Sorry, could you please elaborate more about this Siu Lam influence?

Thanks

[diego]

Here's a short clip of my Sifu, Chan Tai-San, demonstrating some Lama basics.

I'm posting some good clips later on as well, so subscribe and check back!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jq8u73wIktQ

Thanks for posting the 2 clf instructional clips, I look forward to seeing what else you have coming:)

[jdhowland]

Sorry, could you please elaborate more about this Siu Lam influence?

Thanks

Sure. I'm basing this largely on information from Quentin Fong (Fong Kwan) and Cheuk Tse (Jeh Cheuk Tong).

Most TWC teachers under Ng Siu Jung and his brother were former Hung Ga or Choy Lei Faht men. Their Siu Lahm stylisms were allowed to influence their teaching of TWC. One major example is the punch beginning with the fist palm up at the side of the body. The original lama style performs chyun cheui beginning with the fist behind the body palm down. The chyun fist grazes the ribs on the way forward and completes the strike without ever turning the wrist. This prevents interference by antagonist muscles that might slow the strike if the hand were turned. This is how Ng Siu Jung taught.

Another example is that all original Lama forms were simple line drills. The most conservative lineages teach sets that are northern style straight roads. Some instructors were unable to give up their beloved southern style sahp jih patterns and modified the sets to fit their preferences.

Some of Ng Siu Jung's students such as Teng Jak Ming and Au Wing Nin (who learned Lama before becoming Ng's student) learned only Lama/TWC or did some form of Lama first and kept more conservative training methods.

I'll get into trouble for saying this but many schools of Lama today are openly teaching systems blended with some form of Siu Lahm. Sometimes they are hard to distinguish from CLF or look like a link between Lama and Hu Hok Pai. Nothing wrong with this. Hop Ga is shaolinized to some degree because Wong Yen Lam was eclectic in his approach. I suspect Wong Lam Hoi passed on a "purer" form of Lama.

Despite the differences in approach I think all these systems are good, and as Mr. Parella indicated, there aren't enough of us around.

[cjurakpt]

The chyun fist grazes the ribs on the way forward and completes the strike without ever turning the wrist. This prevents interference by antagonist muscles that might slow the strike if the hand were turned. This is how Ng Siu Jung taught.

I'm not sure that I buy this from a myokinetic perspective - could you specify which agonist / antagonist couple you are talking about?

[jdhowland]

Nope. Sorry, I wasn't referring to agonist/antagonist pairs but to synergistic enervation of the arm in general. Triggering the brachioradialis, for example, while turning the hand may cause undesirable elbow flexion during the strike.

[htowndragon]

thats interesting that you regard TWC as passed by wang lam hoi as a "purer" form of lama pai. usually, its stated in the reverse, that pak hok pai is the most shaolinized" of the tibetan systems

[jdhowland]

Yeah, I know. Popular opinion... I suppose it depends on what aspects of a system you're talking about. White Crane did pick up a lot of southern gung fu culture in it's names of forms, etc.,. But I think the techniques remained pretty conservative, true to their northwestern roots.

Because Wong Yan Lum was senior to Wong Lum Hoi many people assume Hop Ga is an older style. This is just a guess, but I suspect Wong Yan Lum, the son of a southern Siu Lam stylist, modified his style during his many years of experience, creating something that included, but was not limited to, the lama fists. One of my reasons for thinking this way is that the sets we have from Ng Yim Ming are amazingly complex compared to the fairly simple and direct White Crane and Lama forms from Au Wing Nin. It could be that Wong Lum Hoi or Ng Siu Jung preferred to simplify their training methods. But I'm relying on the old adage that systems tend toward greater complexity until they fall apart.

You can't rely on names to tell you where a system fits chronologically or morphologically, either. The popular history when I was a teenager was that it was all Lion Roar, then Lama Kyuhn, then Hop Ga, Then White Crane split off from the rest. Most systems now calling themselves Lama Paai are derived from teachers of TWC and HG lineages. After the war with Japan it was once again relatively safe to use the old names that could have led to boycott during the early Nationalist period because of the association of lamas and Tibetan culture with the unpopular Ching regime.

My opinion is that no revolutionary new system was created when all this was going on. All branches have the same early pedigree and are equally justified as inheritors of the Lion Roar tradition...except maybe the looneytunes out there claiming that our style was authorized by a Dalai Lama or given by a boddhisattva and is thousand of years old...but I rant.

[Gru Bianca]

Sure. I'm basing this largely on information from Quentin Fong (Fong Kwan) and Cheuk Tse (Jeh Cheuk Tong).

Most TWC teachers under Ng Siu Jung and his brother were former Hung Ga or Choy Lei Faht men. Their Siu Lahm stylisms were allowed to influence their teaching of TWC. One major example is the punch beginning with the fist palm up at the side of the body. The original lama style performs chyun cheui beginning with the fist behind the body palm down. The chyun fist grazes the ribs on the way forward and completes the strike without ever turning the wrist. This prevents interference by antagonist muscles that might slow the strike if the hand were turned. This is how Ng Siu Jung taught.

Another example is that all original Lama forms were simple line drills. The most conservative lineages teach sets that are northern style straight roads. Some instructors were unable to give up their beloved southern style sahp jih patterns and modified the sets to fit their preferences.

Some of Ng Siu Jung's students such as Teng Jak Ming and Au Wing Nin (who learned Lama before becoming Ng's student) learned only Lama/TWC or did some form of Lama first and kept more conservative training methods.

I'll get into trouble for saying this but many schools of Lama today are openly teaching systems blended with some form of Siu Lahm. Sometimes they are hard to distinguish from CLF or look like a link between Lama and Hu Hok Pai. Nothing wrong with this. Hop Ga is shaolinized to some degree because Wong Yen Lam was eclectic in his approach. I suspect Wong Lam Hoi passed on a "purer" form of Lama.

Despite the differences in approach I think all these systems are good, and as Mr. Parella indicated, there aren't enough of us around.

Thank you very much for your explanation. Very clear, I understand your point, can't comment on its content, however I feel I have to add that in our Pak Hok we do have the wrist twisting while charging for Tsin Choy and it might even be true that we have a Siu Lum influence (can't really say for sure) but it's curious how our line comes exactly from the two you mentioned (Teng Jak Ming and Au Wing Nam) that are supposed to be more influence free.

Any way, all good and might all of us one day reunite for good.

Regards

[jdhowland]

[QUOTE=Gru Bianca;816808] "... in our Pak Hok we do have the wrist twisting while charging for Tsin Choy and it might even be true that we have a Siu Lum influence (can't really say for sure) but it's curious how our line comes exactly from the two you mentioned (Teng Jak Ming and Au Wing Nam) that are supposed to be more influence free."


Wow. That really surprises me. My two teachers learned in the 1940s and '50s. I wonder if the change happened later.

Anyway, thanks for the food for thought. I hope we can train together someday.

Be well,

John

[Gru Bianca]

[QUOTE=Gru Bianca;816808] "... in our Pak Hok we do have the wrist twisting while charging for Tsin Choy and it might even be true that we have a Siu Lum influence (can't really say for sure) but it's curious how our line comes exactly from the two you mentioned (Teng Jak Ming and Au Wing Nam) that are supposed to be more influence free."


Wow. That really surprises me. My two teachers learned in the 1940s and '50s. I wonder if the change happened later.

Anyway, thanks for the food for thought. I hope we can train together someday.

Be well,

John

Hi John,

it is a possibility that the changes did happen later and it is also a possibility that the change was implemented by my Sigong, honestly I can't tell cause I don't really know.
As for the training together It would really be nice if you'd live in Asia :D, but you might be interested in coming next year to the world pak hok pai gathering to which for example Quenting Fong did partecipate this year.

Regards,

Luca

[htowndragon]

thats interesting, im from ng yim mings line, and everything seems very unique compared to the shaolin and shaolin influenced arts i used to study.

[cjurakpt]

Nope. Sorry, I wasn't referring to agonist/antagonist pairs but to synergistic enervation of the arm in general. Triggering the brachioradialis, for example, while turning the hand may cause undesirable elbow flexion during the strike.

I'm not sure that I buy it; biomechanically speaking, brachioradialis is intrinsically strongest as an elbow flexor when the forearm is in neutral, and stronger relative to biceps when the forearm is fully pronated, because biceps is at a relatively less advantageous position leveragewise; it also assists in pronation from full supination to neutral (and vice versa);

so, if you start with the arm chambered (meaning the elbow flexed and the forearm fully supinated) iand you extend the elbow and pronate the forearm, while brachioradialis will assist with the later, it really won't impact the former, because it does not function that efficiently as an elbow flexor in that part of its range (and again, it's not going to be recruiting all that much during unresisted pronation since pronator teres is going to be the prime mover anyway); and once you go past neutral, it's not even functioning as a pronator anymore, so there's no reason for it to be "on" at that point at all; and on top of that, during elbow extention you're getting reciprocal inhibition of elbow flexors in general anyway, so brachioradialis might not even be "on" to begin with...(unfortunately I couldn't find any EMG studies on Medline pertaining to this specific movement to support or refute this)

as far as "synergistic enervation" (although I think you meant "innervation", as "enervation" means a loss of strength due to removal of a nerve...), I'm unclear as to what you are suggesting: are you talking about groups of muscles that perform the same arthrokinematics (e.g. - all elbow flexors) or those that are innervated from the same spinal level or by the same peripheral nerve? if the latter, it's true that both triceps and brachioradialis are innervated by n. radialis, so are you suggesting that recruiting the former may somehow "tirgger" the latter, creating some sort of "drag" on the motion of elbow extension? in an intact nervous system, I don't see how this is going to be an issue, but maybe I am misunderstanding what you are trying to explain...

[jdhowland]

thats interesting, im from ng yim mings line, and everything seems very unique compared to the shaolin and shaolin influenced arts i used to study.

Oh, I agree that Hop Ga has a unique flavor and I don't mean to say that it looks like any style other than the lama systems. By emphasising close range grappling techniques interspersed with chyun-paau-kahp in our very first set it shows a different strategy for teaching than Baahk Hok--long and short hands together rather than first long- then short-hands. Many of these short hand techniques are found in other systems and it's impossible to determine the source. I was merely speculating that, since we know that Wong Yan Lum had knowledge of Hung Ga and other systems and since he was away from home for many years as a professional guard, he may have developed a system based on his own preferences and was not particularly concerned with teaching lama as he first learned it. It was all Chinese gung fu, anyway.

Wong Lum Hoi trained uder Sing Lung and also under his si-hing Chiu Chi-Yiu and Wong Yan Lum. There was probably a strong "Hop Ga" influence on his later development of the lama (pre-White Crane) style, but we don't know that Lum Hoi learned anything other than Lama and an early version of Hop Ga.

Our very first Hop Ga set uses a double gam gong jih immediately after the three-way salute. Could be Iron Wire influence--or maybe they came from the same source. Do you do this set? I'd love to see it done by someone from Chin Dai-Wei's lineage.

[sanjuro_ronin]

May i say that threads like this require the following to be said:

This thread needs pics !!
or videos!
Or Both !!

[htowndragon]

the only set i learned so far is "pok yik sau" wing flip hand, a short fighting set emphasizing the wing flip hand technique. everything else has been line drills, chyuun pao cup, gwa, ko, mok, chaap, etc. etc.

its interesting on your take on wang lam hoi. my sifu goes with the theory that wang lam hoi was actually wong yan lum's STUDENT rather than hing-dai. if this were the case, it would totally change the perspective of what was learned, and who had the "original" lama. i would love to see your sets as well!

[jdhowland]

I'm not sure that I buy it; biomechanically speaking, brachioradialis is intrinsically strongest as an elbow flexor when the forearm is in neutral, and stronger relative to biceps when the forearm is fully pronated, because biceps is at a relatively less advantageous position leveragewise; it also assists in pronation from full supination to neutral...

Ah, this is good stuff!

Yes, I did mean innervation. I should never try to write after a 13 hour shift at work.

Again, I'm not talking about specific muscle agonist/antagonist pairings nor am I trying to argue that punching with a supinated forearm is inefficient. To keep things in layman's terms (which is all I am) I'm trying to reconcile a traditional method for learning muscle control with something I learned from a friend who is a physical therapist who got it from her neuroanatomy professor. It goes something like this: the more complex a motion or the more motions involved in an action means more dedicated neural pathways during the event. These links between the brain and the functioning limb tend to dissipate the signals to the limb in general as if putting all the muscles in the area on alert. This is a good thing because it allows one to adapt quickly to changes and allows many muscles to stabilize the limb for the intended action. I'ts also a bad thing because it means that it becomes very difficult to use only the muscles needed for the action. This "isolation" improves with training but never becomes fully realized during complex movement.

I know a yiquan teacher who tries to solve this problem by working the muscles to failure and then trying to do the move anyway--a traditional approach based on experience but is there any scientific study of the method? Any sports physiologists out there care to comment?

If you don't do lama style punches the subject is unimportant. The emphasis for us is on what we don't do. We don't push the fist into the target. As Cheuk sifu put it we "throw the bones." I like to think of our style as a "gross motor skills method." The ideal is to throw the arm and then relax the muscles with only the fist tightening momentarily upon impact, an improbably difficult series of events. I'd like to think that after nearly 35 years of practice I'm getting pretty good at it. What I would like to know is whether this tradition's emphasis on relaxing the arm produces any greater speed than systems that don't worry about it. My guess would be that all good fighters become more efficient as they progress and the different schools of thought approach the same answers.

I'm afraid this is tangential to the original thread. Time to start a new one on Lama style power generation?

Thanks, cjurakpt. I appreciate your input.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The ideal is to throw the arm and then relax the muscles with only the fist tightening momentarily upon impact, an improbably difficult series of events.

Pretty much how everyone is taught to punch eventually or from the beginning.

[cjurakpt]

Ah, this is good stuff!
yep!


I'm afraid this is tangential to the original thread. Time to start a new one on Lama style power generation?
sounds good - I'll paste this stuff on there and comment when time permits


Thanks, cjurakpt. I appreciate your input.
likewise - always happy to talk nuts and bolts intelligently with others (we should get Knifefighter in on this - he's no slouch when it comes to this sort of thing...)