Decided To Become Batman

[Ultimatewingchun]

I received the following email from someone - and it really gave me pause to think about things.

In subsequent emails my new friend identified himself by his first name but I will respect his apparent desire for anonymity and not even reveal that much...

But we've discussed he and a friend of his coming by my school for a workout when he's NYC early next year - and a possible tour around NYC's underground nhb venues...

But I'm getting ahead of myself. First read his first email if you want to see where I'm going with all of this:

................................

"Listen I don't know you at all, I have read some of your posts over the years and have to say you are on the right track bringing WC up to date.

I studied wing chun for about to years - it was a mistake for me. I have wanted to be a pro fighter from the time I was 10. Wing Chun did not work for me.

Like you I have posted wing chun must be crossed trained in order to be successful in my opinion add boxing, Muay Thai and bjj then it will work.

After my wing chun experience I trained in shootfighting under Bart Vale and have became a pro fighter winning my last two fights in the king of the cage.

As for Alan Orr I just don't get the NHB no head shots.

Let me get back to the point T has great insight to what needs to be changed in WC but needs to just shut up.

So Vic ignore him you made alot of friends on that board so don't sweat the small stuff."

..............................

He's absolutely right.

It has to be crosstrained in order to work. That's what I was saying since the first day I came on this forum 5.5 years ago.

And he's right about Terence. Has an insight but needs to be IGNORED because he just doesn't know when to STFU.

As for Alan - I tend to agree, and am still quite curious why Alan has yet to post any vids with headshots. But since Alan is clearly willing to come around and get together/mix things up with people - then he deserves respect. When I meet him and get to work out with him and his guys - then I'll know what's what with the headshots issue.

In the meantime, I respect where he's coming from even if I disagree with his idea about sparring venues, chi sao venues, protective gear, headshots, size of gloves to be worn, etc.

As for Dave/sihing73....he's a former cop but still has the kind of cop mentality I really don't like: enjoys his power a little too much - and is not shy about using it to delete/moderate/edit when it suits him (read that to mean when it's either just too far over the top to be ignored so it has to be edited or deleted - or ESPECIALLY if the opinions expressed are not his own and over the top)...

and on the other side of the coin - he chooses not to delete/edit/moderate when the guy (in this case Terence) is giving someone like me a hard time (even though Terence constantly tetters at the brink of being over the top) - because Dave just flat out doesn't like me for many of my opinions and because so many of my posts/threads expressing positions he doesn't like get a lot of hits and responses...

and he doesn't take too kindly to that. So bring it on, Terence, if it's something that's p i s s i n g Victor off. And besides, Terence, I'll do the great cop cover thing and see to it that it's impossible that over 50% of the voters could vote to ban you by giving them too many choices - instead of a simple "yes" or "no".

So I'm placing both Terence and Dave/sihing73 on my IGNORE LIST.

Only this time I'll have to (AND WILL) exercise more patience with the process. In the past when people responded to Terence, for example, and page-after-page got hijacked by Terence's phony one-trick-pony show - I got all bent out of shape about it.

Now I'll just wait it out.

And I won't respond to anyone's post if it itself was a response to Terence's post.

In other words - those two guys are now disqualified from having ANY of my time.

As for knifefighter/Dale Frank - he's a more complicated issue. I have to recognize and respect the fact that he is who he is - after all, just look at his resume. So no IGNORE list for Dale.

What I will ignore about him, however, are his posts which I judge to be little more than another my-d i c k-is bigger-than-your-d i c k episode in his never ending saga...

(Recall his latest conversation with sanjuro ronin and you'll see my point - since sanjuro is clearly a guy with a resume as well - and yet Dale chose to assume there was no resume - for no apparent reason other than for the purposes of d i c k measurement). LOL. That won't get any of my time either.

As for Ali R (Rahim): You've sparred 10 guys in the last week? Yeah, riiight! :rolleyes:

And if you can't fight in BOTH mirrored leads and cross leads - then you're no fighter at all. But I already knew that, didn't I, Cedric? :eek: :cool:

And Robert Chu, please spare us the "Cain" routine, will ya? The KUNG FU T.V. show went off the air decades ago. The fact is, Robert, if Terence were my student I would have told him several years ago to stop acting like a sneaky lawyer with a huge void in-between his legs or risk being publically denounced and renounced as a student of mine.

But that's just me, Robert.

So I'm back.

As Batman.

Determined to help straighten out Gotham City! :cool:

:D :D :D

[sihing]

Since Batman has partner and the dynamic duo role has already been taken by Terence and Dale, you should have picked Supe or Spidy Vic:)

I'm glad someone has finally taken notice to your insightful posts, and shown you the recognition I know you've been waiting for:rolleyes:

J

[Ultimatewingchun]

Gotta love your lefthanded compliments, James! :rolleyes:

Better than being IGNORED! :D

I have an incredible BATMAN mask that I started wearing on halloween along with a long black raincoat, black pants, and black gloves to a huge parade they have here in Brooklyn on October 31ft every year in a neighborhood called Park Slope...

And after I told one of my long time students about it the day after I did for the first time, about 4 years ago, he responded: "I'm not surprised. You ARE Batman!"

Hey listen, if Dale can be Knifefighter, and Joy can be Vajramusti - then I can be Batman. :cool:

[Phil Redmond]

Trust me Vic. Dave is not the guy you think he is. He doesn't care about the lineage BS and I think he's pretty fair. I've hung out with him in Philly. He's come to the NJ school and met Keith. Once you meet him you'll see what I mean. Sometimes words on a forum can be miscontrued. He's more like you than you think.
Also, I knew you'd be back . .;)

Phil

[Ultimatewingchun]

I know it's not about lineage with him - it's other things.

But besides, who's Dave, anyway?

I don't know any Dave!

Btw...When I tried to put sihing73 on the IGNORE list - I got this response:

"Sorry Sihing73 is a moderator/admin and you are not allowed to ignore him or her."


***BUT I RESPONDED....with this:

"We'll see about that. Just watch me!" :D :cool: :eek:

[Knifefighter]

D@mmitall... I knew he'd be back. Just what we need around here, an attention mongering troll whooore.

[anerlich]

I can see Dale as Batman, but Terence reminds me of Joe Pesci's character in Lethal Weapon 2

[Dan_chi_sau]

ah yes....bruce wayne got really upset one day cos he got a bit of a raw deal ...so he 'invented' this other person, to enable himself to go around bashing anyone he likes without too much come back.

are you kidding? vic, what you've done there is 'this person is full of ****, that person is full of ****, you're all full of ****....by the way I'm going to exercise more patience and tolerate people more?'. WTF?

Thats funny.

Dan Robinson, uk

p.s. go ahead and add me to your ignore/threaten me etc. I might just turn 'joker' and spend the rest of my days laughing at you........

[Dan_chi_sau]

Also, I knew you'd be back . .;)

Phil

phil, i think we all knew that, he just cant resist it.

[t_niehoff]

I received the following email from someone - and it really gave me pause to think about things.


In other words, after your tantrum where you said you were leaving the forum if I weren't "banned" didn't work, you decided not to leave after all. Big surprise.

Now this from Victor's anonymous "friend":



"Listen I don't know you at all, I have read some of your posts over the years and have to say you are on the right track bringing WC up to date.

I studied wing chun for about to years - it was a mistake for me. I have wanted to be a pro fighter from the time I was 10. Wing Chun did not work for me.

Like you I have posted wing chun must be crossed trained in order to be successful in my opinion add boxing, Muay Thai and bjj then it will work.

After my wing chun experience I trained in shootfighting under Bart Vale and have became a pro fighter winning my last two fights in the king of the cage.


WCK doesn't need to be cross-trained to "work" anymore than boxing or BJJ needs to be cross-trained to "work." YOU need to cross-train to be a well-rounded fighter, as there will be times, situtations, etc. where you find that your skillset (WCK or boxing or BJJ) isn't appropriate.



As for Alan Orr I just don't get the NHB no head shots.


As far as people who don't seem to remember Alan telling them time and time again that his guys have fought PRO NHB fights with headshots, boxing with headshots, etc. -- that the amatuer MMAfights without headshots were just some of the competitions that he and his group has fought in: I don't get them.



Let me get back to the point T has great insight to what needs to be changed in WC but needs to just shut up.


So my views are correct ("great insight") but I need to stop expressing that "great insight" and shut up? Yeah, that makes sense.



So Vic ignore him you made alot of friends on that board so don't sweat the small stuff."


And this is what matters? That there are people who agree with you?



He's absolutely right.

It has to be crosstrained in order to work. That's what I was saying since the first day I came on this forum 5.5 years ago.


No, WCK like boxing or wrestling or BJJ just needs to be learned and trained realistically to "work." You need to cross-train to be well-rounded as a fighter.



And he's right about Terence. Has an insight but needs to be IGNORED because he just doesn't know when to STFU.


SureI do, I'll STFU when people like youstop talking nonsense. :)



As for Alan - I tend to agree, and am still quite curious why Alan has yet to post any vids of headshots. But since Alan is clearly willing to come around and get together/mix things up with people - then he deserves respect. When I meet him and get to work out with him and his guys - then I'll know what's what with the headshots issue.


When will that be, Victor?



As for Dave/sihing73....he's a cop with the kind of cop mentality I really don't like: enjoys his power a little too much - and is not shy about using it to delete/moderate/edit when it pleases him (read that to mean when it's either just too far over the top to be ignored so it has to be edited or deleted) - and ESPECIALLY if the opinions expressed are not his own)...

and so then he chooses not to delete/edit/moderate when the guy (in this case Terence) is giving someone like me a hard time - because Dave just flat out doesn't like me for my many of my opinions and because so many of my posts/threads expressing positions he doesn't like get a lot of hits and responses...


ROFLOL! So when Dave doesn't come to your rescue because I "give you a hard time" -- show that you haveneither evidence orr reason to support you views -- he's the one with the problem?! Interesting.



and he doesn't take too kindly to that. So bring it on, Terence, if it's something that's p i s s i n g Victor off. And besides, Terence, I'll do the great cop cover thing and see to it that it's impossible that over 50% of the voters could vote to ban you by giving them too many choices - instead of a simple "yes" or "no".

So I'm placing both Terence and Dave/sihing73 on my IGNORE LIST.


And thanks for sharing that.



Only this time I'll have to (AND WILL) exercise more patience with the process. In the past when people responded to Terence, for example, and page-after-page got hijacked by Terence's phony one-trick-pony show - I got all bent out of shape about it.

Now I'll just wait it out.

And I won't respond to anyone's post if it itself was a response to Terence's post.

In other words - those two guys are now disqualified from having ANY of my time.

As for knifefighter/Dale Frank - he's a more complicated issue. I have to recognize and respect the fact that he is who he is - after all, just look at his resume. So no IGNORE list for Dale.

What I will ignore about him, however, are his posts which I judge to be little more than another my-d i c k-is bigger-than-your-d i c k episode in his never ending saga...


Alert: pot calling kettle black.



And Robert Chu, please spare us the "Cain" routine, will ya? The KUNG FU T.V. show went off the air decades ago. The fact is, Robert, if Terence were my student I would have told him several years ago to stop acting like a sneaky lawyer with a huge void in-between his legs or risk being publically denounced and renounced as a student of mine.

But that's just me, Robert.


Yes, it is. Sadly. Because youjust don't get it.



So I'm back.

As Batman.

Determined to help straighten out Gotham City! :cool:

:D :D :D

You do know that Batman is fantasy, right?

[JPinAZ]

haha, no offence, but how is this whole first post any different then the trolling & ego stroking T is accused of? same thread, different cape & mask IMO... :)

oh, and welcome back :rolleyes:

[Phil Redmond]

I know it's not about lineage with him - it's other things.

But besides, who's Dave, anyway?

I don't know any Dave!

Btw...When I tried to put sihing73 on the IGNORE list - I got this response:

"Sorry Sihing73 is a moderator/admin and you are not allowed to ignore him or her." . .
Dave is Sihing73, the moderator.

[Alan Orr]

Hey Victor

RE:

As for Alan - I tend to agree, and am still quite curious why Alan has yet to post any vids with headshots. But since Alan is clearly willing to come around and get together/mix things up with people - then he deserves respect. When I meet him and get to work out with him and his guys - then I'll know what's what with the headshots issue.

In the meantime, I respect where he's coming from even if I disagree with his idea about sparring venues, chi sao venues, protective gear, headshots, size of gloves to be worn, etc.


Alan: As Terence has pointed out to you. My guys have been fighting Pro MMA with headshots! I have said this so many times. You seem to like to repeat yourself so much, but don't listen to anything that is said to you.

My guys and I spar and fight with headshots all the time. The Chi Sao comp is not a test of that. I have already explain why. I can repeat this all again if you wish.

I have lots of video to post and will do very soon. I have 3 guys fighting in Dec NHB/MMA.

Why don't you post some of your fights for us to see? We hear about it all the time. It would be nice to see. Have your guys done any comps?

Why not post up some of your grappling for us to see at the same time.


I'm sure everyone would like to see what you ideas are all about, rather that just having you repeat everything to us each week.

Regards

Alan

[Ultimatewingchun]

Keep your shirt on, Alan...

I said that I'm still curious why no vids with headshots were yet to be forthcoming. I didn't say that I never read about your fights with headshots - because I have read your posts about these things.

As for me, I posted about 6 vids some time ago that included punches, kicks, takedowns, and wrestling on the ground - including submissions and strikes - against a resisting opponent in a real sparring match.

BUT I INTEND TO POST MORE.

Much more, in fact.

BECAUSE I'VE COME TO REALIZE THAT A PICTURE IS INDEED WORTH A THOUSAND WORDS.

About a lot of issues, in fact.

However my computer skills are terrible. So I'm waiting for some help from my students, friends, and other martial art guys here in Brooklyn not associated with me or with wing chun. Help with filming, editing, and with transposing the film onto vids for here and/or for Youtube - and as sparring partners.

That's a project of mine for early 2008.

And you can count on it happening.

While you and I don't agree on a bunch of things - including who our real friends may be...nonetheless...we have a lot in common.

There aren't many/enough people advocating using wing chun as part of an overall mma approach - like you and I do.

And wing chun as a mixed martial art (or as part of a mma approach)...is the only future worth talking about - as far as I'm concerned.

That is, the only future that won't be marginal. Sure, there may always be purist schools of wing chun around that in the end, I predict, will be little more than a small fish in a small pond - doing relatively small things.

I believe the future of martial arts are conglomerate approaches, ie.- hybrid martial arts in a global world where communication and interaction with other styles/stylists will be the norm - not the exception - and where the mixing of styles will be ongoing and instantaneous...

at the push of a button.

Fighting principles, strategies, techniques, training methods, sparring and rolling venues - will all be shared, explored, competed, contrasted, tested, and analyzed again and again.

AND WING CHUN WILL BE FOUND TO BE AN EXCELLENT PART OF THE FIGHTING FORMULA AT CLOSE QUARTER STRIKING RANGE.

That's my message to Gotham.

[VingDragon]

long live, mr batman ! :D

[Ultimatewingchun]

long live, mr batman ! :D


***Spoken like a true mma guy!!!

Weng Chun includes punching, kicking, and grappling.

You gotta love it! :)

[Knifefighter]

AND WING CHUN WILL BE FOUND TO BE AN EXCELLENT PART OF THE FIGHTING FORMULA AT CLOSE QUARTER STRIKING RANGE.

I hate to tell you this but WC is light years behind the close quarter techniques of Muay Thai, MMA and Greco Roman wrestling... all of which have been refining, evolving and perfecting their techniques with pools of hundreds of thousands of people and working at the highest levels in the world.

[VingDragon]

Weng Chun includes punching, kicking, and grappling ...and groundfight in some countries, too :)

[Ultimatewingchun]

It's not an either/or situation, Dale...(or of measuring the size of wing chun's p e c k e r compared to the Muay Thai p e c k e r). :rolleyes: :p :cool:

I have great respect for Thai knees and elbows in the clinch - and for Greco-Roman moves when in clinch and/or going for a takedown. And I've been putting a healthy dose of both in the mix that I now work with.

But what I've been saying - and will continue to say - is that the short range punches, palm strikes, elbows, knees, and low level heel kicks done within the wing chun framework - along with the contact reflex redirections, angling, and unbalancing...

and along with a body structure that deflects, parries, pressures forward, holds it's ground - while simultaneously using blocks-and-strikes in conjunction with the centerline/central lines and other wing chun principles...

are all part of what I see that wing chun can bring to the table in an all out nhb or mma setting.

And is part of what I intend to film.

And part of what I expect to see from other wing chun/mma people as well.

[Knifefighter]

IBut what I've been saying - and will continue to say - is that the short range punches, palm strikes, elbows, knees, and low level heel kicks done within the wing chun framework - along with the contact reflex redirections, angling, and unbalancing...

I would buy into your approach, except for one glaring problem. It carries almost no weight because it is the theoretical fantasy non-fighter's approach to incorporating WC into fighting.

You are on the right track, at least. Like Terence and I, you have discovered the shortcomings of WC and are training in grappling, MT, and clinching technqiues.

You are still missing one giant piece of the puzzle, though. You never realized that you need to go out there and use your "WC principles" to redirect, angle and unbalance opponents in wrestling, MMA, and MT competitions to be able to come up with a truly credible approach.

Until then, history pretty much shows that the people who develop their fighting techniques in anything other than the crucible of open competitions, usually come up short.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"I would buy into your approach, except for one glaring problem. It carries almost no weight because it is the theoretical fantasy non-fighter's approach to incorporating WC into fighting." (Dale)


***HILARIOUS !!! :rolleyes: :cool: :D

(And do yourself a favor and don't lower your credentials/credibility by comparing Terence's experiences to yours. (Or mine, for that matter).

As for testing myself and my approach to fighting against other stylists - that's in the works. As is putting it on film. It won't be in a tournament venue - but it will be real testing/sparring/rolling done at my school. Some guys from a local gym might be coming down, ie. kickboxing, sambo, Muay-Thai. We're working on it - as one of my students goes to the gym and knows the guys.

Probably next month sometime - or early January the latest.

[Knifefighter]

As for testing myself and my approach to fighting against other stylists - that's in the works. As is putting it on film. It won't be in a tournament venue - but it will be real testing/sparring/rolling done at my school. Some guys from a local gym might be coming down, ie. kickboxing, sambo, Muay-Thai. We're working on it - as one of my students goes to the gym and knows the guys.

Probably next month sometime - or early January the latest.

Fly... sounds like you're on the track.

[Phil Redmond]

I hate to tell you this but WC is light years behind the close quarter techniques of Muay Thai, MMA and Greco Roman wrestling... all of which have been refining, evolving and perfecting their techniques with pools of hundreds of thousands of people and working at the highest levels in the world.
You need to come to NJ if I don't get to L.A.

[Knifefighter]

You need to come to NJ if I don't get to L.A.

Phil,
Here is a much simpler method, logistically.

Start entering your guys in competitions against MMA, MT, and wrestlers and see which of your methods stack up and which don't.

Open freestyle wrestling tourneys are a great way to see how your "unbalanciing" skills stack up. If you can unbalance these guys, you are on to something.

Enter the masters divisions and do some yourself. I think you will be surprised at their levels and how hard it is to pull of the stuff you think you can.

It's easy to talk about all the BJJ, wrestling, MMA and boxing guys you have coming into your gym, but a bit harder to actually go out and enter open competitions against these guys.

[Mr Punch]

******....

Oh my good golly gosh, this board really does censor pe cker.

Glad to see the censorware out-retros even the contents of the threads round here. The arguments are from the last decade, the censorship: welcome to the fifties!

Bouffant anyone?

[sanjuro_ronin]

The few guys I have seen use WC well have been guys that sparred and cross trained with fighters from other systems.
Untill WC is trained against MT, Greco and freestyle wrestling, against MMA, it will always be lacking.
Now, some will say that those other systems wil also be lacking a solution to WC if THEY don't train VS WC, and perhaps there is a point there, BUT we haven't seen a case of it yet.

[Ultimatewingchun]

The few guys I have seen use WC well have been guys that sparred and cross trained with fighters from other systems.
Untill WC is trained against MT, Greco and freestyle wrestling, against MMA, it will always be lacking.
Now, some will say that those other systems wil also be lacking a solution to WC if THEY don't train VS WC, and perhaps there is a point there, BUT we haven't seen a case of it yet.


***ALL the more reason for a Wing Chun Sparring Tournament venue(s) as was discussed on a different thread recently. And a venue that is open to all styles.

In the meantime, however, seeking out and working with/against people trained in the types of styles you mentioned can only help. And help in a big way.

Going into other tournaments/comps is okay too, but a grappling tournament, per se, does not help if you're looking to test your overall skills including striking.

Unless you think you're ready for an nhb/mma format.

But my point is that Wing Chun fighters/crosstrainers need to walk before they try to run.

And if they want to simply test their grappling skills (if they crosstrain) then fine - a grappling comp is good.

But in the end, if the goal is a total package mix of some sort, then a Wing Chun Sparring Tournament that also allows takedowns and ground grappling/submissions...

is the key, imo.

How many different styles have gone into an nhb, mma venue and done well without a foundation in other previous venues that cater to their primary art?

Think about it...

BJJ
Sambo
boxing
kickboxing
kyocushin karate
free style wrestling
Greco-Roman wrestling
judo
Muay thai
catch wrestling

All of the above have had fighters go into nhb, mma venues - and there seems to be a connection between people who have previous comp experience in their chosen primary (or first) art - and those who regularly graduate to other mma venues and do well.

But even if your goal as a wing chun fighter/practitioner is not to compete in an nhb venue; nonetheless, if your goal is to be a good overall fighter - then competition against other stylists and those in your style from other schools/linegaes - in some form or another - is the way to go.

[Wayfaring]

So I'm back.

As Batman.

Determined to help straighten out Gotham City! :cool:

:D :D :D

As long as you don't start dressing up or posting shirtless pics of yourself you have my support.

[sanjuro_ronin]

As long as you don't start dressing up or posting shirtless pics of yourself you have my support.

That's right, because that is MY DOMAIN BABY !!!

[sihing]

That's right, because that is MY DOMAIN BABY !!!

It's nice putting faces to the profiles, but I bet T never puts a picture up, in fear of too many people stalking him:eek:

James

[sanjuro_ronin]

It's nice putting faces to the profiles, but I bet T never puts a picture up, in fear of too many people stalking him:eek:

James

One must welcome stalkers, they make good striking pads :)

[Wayfaring]

That's right, because that is MY DOMAIN BABY !!!

Note the 5 empty bottles of "liquid courage" in the background. It is indeed YOUR DOMAIN BABY!!

[Phil Redmond]

Note the 5 empty bottles of "liquid courage" in the background. It is indeed YOUR DOMAIN BABY!!
Hey, cut him some slack. He's a Canuk. Those bottles are supposed to be there. ;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Note the 5 empty bottles of "liquid courage" in the background. It is indeed YOUR DOMAIN BABY!!

Bah, you are unaware of the true Drunken Kung Fu style !!

*hick up*

[sanjuro_ronin]

Hey, cut him some slack. He's a Canuk. Those bottles are supposed to be there. ;)

You know us Canucks and beer, its not just for breakfast anymore !!

[Wayfaring]

Hey can you guys get a room?

Or alternatively, allow people the space to define a new path other than what their history is? Both of you? You've both probably got something valuable to contribute.

[VingDragon]

its normal, all community is like that, no matter if its china, hong kong, europe or states - sad, but true :(

[sanjuro_ronin]

This lack of harmony is disturbing to the tao, its time we hold hands and sing "we are the world".
:D

[MrBump]

Does anyone remember the www.vingtsun.com.hk forum?

This place is getting as bad as that.

Only the spelling is worse...

:(

[Ali. R]

All you have is a ton of hate and jealousy for anything TWC - because you're a clown and a loser. It all started with Phil Redmond having the audacity to come your town (at the time) - Detroit - and you having a hissy fit about it.

Too bad, fool. :eek:

Now go back to the rock from under which you climbed out from.

Weren't you banned from here, btw? :confused:

For all the lies, slander, and personal attacks made on Phil/TWC/William Cheung?

But then again - nothing surprises me with Dave/sihing73. :rolleyes:

So here you are, again.

But the truth is: Who cares? :cool:

Clowns and losers are a dime-a-dozen.


No one mentioned ‘Redmond’s’ name but you…. In fact you’re doing all the name-dropping and name-calling and you want people banned for the way they act… Why should anyone fight with you, it clear you started all this mess all by yourself?

Every time I make a clip or post a post, you come with the “slander and lies” bit, I didn’t mention one name, on a person or system… if you’re sparing enough you would know that other systems fight that way and if you read the posting on that thread, others here fight that way who are not TWC…

Why do you want too fight with me and with all that nasty posting, and you continue to attack the moderator consistently doing the same acts in which you think others should be banned for, how do you get away with this…


Ali Rahim.

[Ali. R]

Hey can you guys get a room?

Or alternatively, allow people the space to define a new path other than what their history is? Both of you? You've both probably got something valuable to contribute.


I’ll always have something too bring to the table.
Ali Rahim.

[Dan_chi_sau]

fair enough, half expected that comment to be censored......but vic, could you keep the personal attacks out of these threads, cos you could make your point without them. See, moderators do stick up for you when needed. ;)

[Wayfaring]

I’ll always have something too bring to the table.
Ali Rahim.

Personalized monogrammed steak knives?

[Ali. R]

Personalized monogrammed steak knives?


LOL,LOL...


Ali Rahim.