Info Please?

[Minghequan]

Does anybody have any information concerning Mr. Jamie Scuffell (Lu Lu Ke) of Townsville QLD (Australia). He claims to be an inheritor of Flying Crane and to claims to be a lineage holder of the Shen Zhao Pai Fujian White Crane (Feihequan = Flying Crane) under a Master Lui Hong Shen (1923 -2002). He also claims to teach Tai Chi, Wing Chun, Tai Zhu and Northern and Southern Wushu.

He now claims to teach "Shaking Crane" as part of his “Shen Jao Pai Athletic Association”.

One "Grandmaster Leeroy W. Epperson III" states that Jamie Scuffell was a member of his World Combat Arts Federation but cannot supply his certification as same were destroyed in a computer crash two years ago. One “Grandmaster Edgar Livingston” states that Scuffell learnt via video!

Any info would be greatly appreciated.

[SifuAbel]

Oh for jebus sakes, get bent!!!! :rolleyes:

[Minghequan]

Hi Sifu Abel, (That is your name I guess?)

As for getting bent I'm already there mate (My wife says I'm "Kinky") LOL.

As for my identity well I'm not hiding it and anyone who wanted to find out need only click on my web site link but I'll make it easy for you mate, my name is Ron Goninan, an old, grey haired guy into martial arts!

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Do you have his contact info? I lost his number some time ago, and I can't get a hold of him.

As for Livingston, It's more ,like Jamie sent HIM video of his Tai Tzu. He never learned anything from Livingston during the time they were communicating, by video or otherwise. Jamie's Tai Tzu comes from several other sources prior to his temporarily being connected to Livingston.

I think Shen Zhao Pai is the name of HIS organization. He's not the inheritor, he's the founder. I think it is named after his late Tai Tzu teacher in honor of him.

[Minghequan]

Royal Dragon,

Thanks for the reply. Do you know anything about Scuffell's claim to be a White Crane instructor? I will see if I can get you his contact info.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

All I know is that he started out doing Northern and Southern Tai Tzu originally. When he went as far as he could there he began with Tai Tzu Crane (totally unrelated to Tai Tzu Quan), and continued to explored from there.

The reason he chose Tai Tzu crane is that it is built on similar technology to his Southern Tai tzu. He dropped everything else he was doing and focused on that only. This was a good number of years ago, he should be pretty darn experienced in the system by now.

He sent me a video of the Sanzhen like set they do in his White crane and showed all the body mechanics and details of the style's body methods. He clearly has a firm grasp on the systems inner details, so he must have had a good teacher.

Last I heard he handed his school to his seniors and was only teaching to his inner door disciples. I lost contact with him shortly after that.

I appreciate any help in contacting him. Even if it's through one of his seniors or one of thier schools.


NOTE} Tai Tzu crane is not related to Northern, or Southern Tai Tzu Quan. In this case the words "Tai Tzu" mean "Ancestral" and are not related to the arts of Emperor Sung Tai Tzu.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

His Tai Chi is Zhao style from Taiwan, and I think he learned his Wing Chun very early in his martial career.

Jamie has been doing martial arts in one form or another his whole life. He's got quite a bit of experience in all the previously mentioned systems, as well as a couple others that I am not privy to discuss without his permission.

[Minghequan]

Royal Dragon,

Thank you for your responses.

May I please ask how you know all this about Mr. Scuffell? Did you train with him?

Have you personally seen his certificates in Tai Zhu, Wing Chun and White Crane or is it only based on his say so in past communications with you?

How do you know he has been doing martial arts his whole life? Have you trained alongside of him?

Why does he claim to teach the Australian Military and to be their official instructor when no-one connected to the Townsville Army knows of him?


I think Shen Zhao Pai is the name of HIS organization. He's not the inheritor, he's the founder. I think it is named after his late Tai Tzu teacher in honor of him.

Why does he claim to be a "inheritor" of this Shen Zhao Pai when you say he is the "founder?". Jamie stated to me in person that he was the "Inheritor" and I have his so-called lineage chart for same in my hands.

Why would he name a "White Crane" style after a Tai Zhu teacher?

Why does no one (and I mean NO-ONE) in the traditional White Crane community know of Scuffell?


He sent me a video of the Sanzhen like set they do in his White crane and showed all the body mechanics and details of the style's body methods. He clearly has a firm grasp on the systems inner details, so he must have had a good teacher.

With all due respect to you and your own training but what experience have you had in traditional White Crane?

Why do people like Edgar Livingston, David Kash and Leeroy W. Epperson III say that he only ever learnt form video and has no knowledge of White Crane. I have communicated with all of these individuals and they all say the same thing, how can this be? Surely they all can't be making it all up?

I have video which I personally filmed of Scuffell demonstrating so called White Crane. He stuffed up the basic form three times in a row before eventually going through the form which is a *******ized rip-off of the forms taught by one Sifu Dong Mu-Yao and available all over the Internet for anyone who wants to search them out. Most of what he taught of "White Crane" was ripped off Wing Chun and then he stood around chain smoking while his students demonstrated .

I am after actual hands-on proof of his claims not his say so.

If you have hard, factual proof of his claims then I would be happy to see it.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Royal Dragon,

Thank you for your responses.

May I please ask how you know all this about Mr. Scuffell? Did you train with him?

Reply]
No, we became associates becasue we are both Tai Tzu practitioners.

Have you personally seen his certificates in Tai Zhu, Wing Chun and White Crane or is it only based on his say so in past communications with you?

Reply]
Well, it's more like this, I have had numerous contacts with him via phone, and E-mail over the last 10 years or so. Every time he and I have had discussions he allways demonstrated direct *Working* knowledge of the styles he was talking about. You just can't get that if you are a fake.

How do you know he has been doing martial arts his whole life? Have you trained alongside of him?

Reply]
No, this is based off of many conversations I have had with him over the years. The guy just knows too many things, too correctly, and can articulate his knowledge in too much deep detail to have not been training as long as he claims.


Why does he claim to teach the Australian Military and to be their official instructor when no-one connected to the Townsville Army knows of him?

Reply]
You probably have not spoken to the right people. I have video footage of him teaching *On Base*. In the footage he was teaching Tai Tzu, and Wing Chun techniques to uniformed soldiers. One segment he is showing disarmed soldiers how to defend in close quarters combat against opponents armed with Military rifles. These are not toys, but the standard military rifles issued to soldiers by your own military....can't fake that if you are just a civilian. Even if you wanted to fake it, how would you be able to get together that many guys, ALL armed with Military rifles if you were just a civilian? Are military issue rifles commonly found amongst civilians in your country?



Quote:
I think Shen Zhao Pai is the name of HIS organization. He's not the inheritor, he's the founder. I think it is named after his late Tai Tzu teacher in honor of him.
Why does he claim to be a "inheritor" of this Shen Zhao Pai when you say he is the "founder?". Jamie stated to me in person that he was the "Inheritor" and I have his so-called lineage chart for same in my hands.

Why would he name a "White Crane" style after a Tai Zhu teacher?

Reply]
No, no, you misunderstand. Tai Tzu Crane is a really, really, really old style. Jamie did not name it. He named his SCHOOL after his old teacher, NOT the style he teaches. It's the same as my school being named "Royal Dragon School of Mind and Body". There is no such style as "Royal Dragon" style. It is the name of my club, same as "Shen Zhao Pai" is the name of his *School*.

Why does no one (and I mean NO-ONE) in the traditional White Crane community know of Scuffell?

Reply]
Again, you are not talking to the right people. There are a lot of Tai Tzu people that don't know me either, but there are a lot that do too. Also, being a White Cran practitioner yourself, you surely must know how closed door those guys are. It's doubtfull you would be told if you were not *In* the family.

Quote:
He sent me a video of the Sanzhen like set they do in his White crane and showed all the body mechanics and details of the style's body methods. He clearly has a firm grasp on the systems inner details, so he must have had a good teacher.
With all due respect to you and your own training but what experience have you had in traditional White Crane?

Reply]
I have known guys in the system over the years. I have seen enough of it in person to know what it looks like, and what the details are. It's easy when you have studied a system based on the style's mechanics.

Why do people like Edgar Livingston, David Kash and Leeroy W. Epperson III say that he only ever learnt form video and has no knowledge of White Crane. I have communicated with all of these individuals and they all say the same thing, how can this be? Surely they all can't be making it all up?

Reply]
David Kash, and Edgar Livingston are the least credible people in the world to go to if you want to verify Jamie's claims. Same with the other guy. All of them live in the USA. Jamie lives in Townsville Australia, half a world away. He has never had anything more than associate contact with any of them, ever. They have no clue as to what he has really done, or not done.


I have video which I personally filmed of Scuffell demonstrating so called White Crane. He stuffed up the basic form three times in a row before eventually going through the form which is a *******ized rip-off of the forms taught by one Sifu Dong Mu-Yao and available all over the Internet for anyone who wants to search them out. Most of what he taught of "White Crane" was ripped off Wing Chun and then he stood around chain smoking while his students demonstrated .

Reply]
Then don't learn from him if you don't like his teaching style. Also, I have hours, and hours, and hours of footage of him training his senior students. *ALL* of them are highly skilled in the styles he is teaching....they didn't get that way in a vacuum.

I am after actual hands-on proof of his claims not his say so.

Reply]
Cross hands with him then. Jamie is a fighter, I am sure he would be more than happy to let you test him.



If you have hard, factual proof of his claims then I would be happy to see it.

Reply]
Only thing I could show is video, and I'd have to ask him permission first. since I lost his contact info, I will have to wait untill he contacts me again...unless you can provide me with his number, or the number of one of his seniors.

[Minghequan]

Royal Dragon (Gian),

I don't wish to nit pick but several of your arguments just don't hold water.


No, we became associates becasue we are both Tai Tzu practitioners.

Who certified Scuffle as a Tai Zhu practitioner? Have you actually seen his certification as actual proof of his claims?


Well, it's more like this, I have had numerous contacts with him via phone, and E-mail over the last 10 years or so. Every time he and I have had discussions he allways demonstrated direct *Working* knowledge of the styles he was talking about. You just can't get that if you are a fake.

Correct me if I'm wrong but what you are saying is that you have only his own emails and phone calls and some video tape to go on? Hardly conclusive proof of his knowledge or accurate certification in the arts! With a little "googling" on the Internet anyone can sound like they have a so-called "Working" knowledge of a system. You only have his "word" to go on. Hardly factual proof!


No, this is based off of many conversations I have had with him over the years. The guy just knows too many things, too correctly, and can articulate his knowledge in too much deep detail to have not been training as long as he claims.


See the above, again, hardly concrete proof of his actual status.


You probably have not spoken to the right people. I have video footage of him teaching *On Base*. In the footage he was teaching Tai Tzu, and Wing Chun techniques to uniformed soldiers. One segment he is showing disarmed soldiers how to defend in close quarters combat against opponents armed with Military rifles. These are not toys, but the standard military rifles issued to soldiers by your own military....can't fake that if you are just a civilian. Even if you wanted to fake it, how would you be able to get together that many guys, ALL armed with Military rifles if you were just a civilian? Are military issue rifles commonly found amongst civilians in your country?

Sorry but I actually talked to the officer in charge of the training (combatives) for the Townsville Army base. Scuffell may well have held one seminar with guys wearing Combat fatigues but this does not make an army trainer! Sorry but the ADF (Australian Defence Force) DENIES without any doubt whatsoever any relation with Scuffell as an army Combat or self-defence instructor. The ADF has its own commissioned officers who provide their instruction. They do NOT hire out to outside persons. Contact the Townsville ADF for yourself to find out the truth.


No, no, you misunderstand. Tai Tzu Crane is a really, really, really old style. Jamie did not name it. He named his SCHOOL after his old teacher, NOT the style he teaches. It's the same as my school being named "Royal Dragon School of Mind and Body". There is no such style as "Royal Dragon" style. It is the name of my club, same as "Shen Zhao Pai" is the name of his *School*.

Sorry again but Scuffell told me face to face that he named his school after his so-called "White Crane" teacher, the mysterious and unverifiable "Lui Hong Shen". I did not misunderstand him and have several reliable witnesses to what he actually stated as well as a copy in full of Scuffell's so called "lineage" which Scuffell himself gave to me If anything, you have been misled by Scuffell.


Again, you are not talking to the right people. There are a lot of Tai Tzu people that don't know me either, but there are a lot that do too. Also, being a White Cran practitioner yourself, you surely must know how closed door those guys are. It's doubtfull you would be told if you were not *In* the family.


Sorry again but you are mistaken. Who are the so-called "right people" in White Crane that I should be talking to in relation to Scuffell's claims? White Crane is a Closed Door art. I know as I am inside the "Closed Door" hence my knowing of the right people to talk to. They don't like people claiming to be White Crane if they are not! I talked to Feihequan (Flying Crane ) people as this is the art Scuffell claimed to be teaching and guess what .... surprise! They did not know of him either. I have talked to my connections direct in Fuzhou China and lo and behold, they too have never heard of him. In FACT, no-one in the White Crane community has heard of Scuffell or his so-called unverifiable instructor Lui Hong Shen! Are you saying the people I contacted are all liars?


David Kash, and Edgar Livingston are the least credible people in the world to go to if you want to verify Jamie's claims. Same with the other guy. All of them live in the USA. Jamie lives in Townsville Australia, half a world away. He has never had anything more than associate contact with any of them, ever. They have no clue as to what he has really done, or not done.

They may say the same about you. However you are not the subject here, Scuffell is. And they both claim that he is only someone who learned via video and not to a very good level! They have his video of his so-called Tai Zhu etc and were not impressed. They may or may not be credible but Scuffell was associated with them and WAS learning from them via video.


Then don't learn from him if you don't like his teaching style. Also, I have hours, and hours, and hours of footage of him training his senior students. *ALL* of them are highly skilled in the styles he is teaching....they didn't get that way in a vacuum.

Sorry again. I have met Scuffell personally. Questioned him. Seen him stuff up his form three times in a row and I have it all on video. I met two of his students both of whom were nice guys and much, much better in skill than Scuffell was! This is Fact. I have no desire to train under him in his mix-match of so-called "White Crane, "Wing Chun" and "Tai Zhu"


Cross hands with him then. Jamie is a fighter, I am sure he would be more than happy to let you test him.

LOL No thanks,. You see I am secure in my art of White Crane, my lineage, my teacher (Who BTW is well known and respected in the White Crane community). And how in the blue hell do you know that Scuffell is a "fighter?" You have only read a few of his emails, talked to him on the phone and seen a few videos! Hardly solid proof of his prowess! I have talked to well respected martial artists in Towsnville and they all say the same things about Him. They can't all be wrong now can they!


Only thing I could show is video, and I'd have to ask him permission first. since I lost his contact info, I will have to wait untill he contacts me again...unless you can provide me with his number, or the number of one of his seniors.


Keep the videos. I don't need to see them. I have enough of Scuffell on video to know what he's really like. As I said I will try to find a contact for him for you.

Gian, I have named names and given you straight up information. I have not made any of this up....... I have no need to .... I have nothing to gain in this other than I feel that Scuffell is misrepresenting the art of White Crane via his claims. Can you give me any actual hard, solid, locked in concrete PROOF that Scuffell is what he says he is other than a few emails, phone calls, videos and say so. Of course he's not going to tell you he made it all up now is he! Please give me some real and verifiable proof or contacts.

He also goes by the names "Lu Lu Ke" and "Wei Guo Hao" .... WTF!

Best wishes!

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I don't wish to nit pick but several of your arguments just don't hold water.

Quote:
No, we became associates becasue we are both Tai Tzu practitioners.
Who certified Scuffle as a Tai Zhu practitioner? Have you actually seen his certification as actual proof of his claims?

Reply]
I didn't have to see a certification (and I have never asked and don't plan to), I have him, and his students on tape showing thier stuff. They ALL are very good, and technically correct. No piece of paper can change that. You have been around long enough to know that just becasue someone has a certification, does not mean they know their style. Proof is in the skills them selves, and Jamie and hi students have that in abundance.

Quote:

Correct me if I'm wrong but what you are saying is that you have only his own emails and phone calls and some video tape to go on? Hardly conclusive proof of his knowledge or accurate certification in the arts! With a little "googling" on the Internet anyone can sound like they have a so-called "Working" knowledge of a system. You only have is "word" to go on. Hardly factual proof!

Reply]
Not really. Anyone can pick up a "Form" from video, but to get the inner workings of them, you really do need a good teacher. In the video I have of him, he is clearly showing solid understandings of the inner workings.



Quote:
No, this is based off of many conversations I have had with him over the years. The guy just knows too many things, too correctly, and can articulate his knowledge in too much deep detail to have not been training as long as he claims.
See the above, again, hardly concrete proof of his actual status.

Reply]
Actually, it is DEFINITIVE proof he's the real deal. You can actually *See* he's got the goods. It's much more accurate than some certificate that could even be bought.

Quote:

Sorry but I actually talked to the officer in charge of the training (combatives) for the Townsville Army base. Scuffell may well have held one seminar with guys wearing Combat fatigues but this does not make an army trainer! Sorry but the ADF (Australian Defence Force) DENIES without any doubt whatsoever any relation with Scuffell as an army Combat or self-defence instructor. The ADF has its own commissioned officers who provide their instruction. They do NOT hire out to outside persons. Contact the Townsville ADF for yourself to find out the truth.

Reply]
I think Jamie was actually in the military at the time...he wasn't an outside trainer.

Quote:
"Shen Zhao Pai" is the name of his *School*.
Sorry again but Scuffell told me face to face that he named his school after his so-called "White Crane" teacher, the mysterious and unverifiable "Lui Hong Shen".

Reply]
He told me that was his Tai Tzu teacher. He has passed on years ago.

I did not misunderstand him and have several reliable witnesses to what he actually stated as well as a copy in full of Scuffell's so called "lineage" which Scuffell himself gave to me (it's a rip-off of a lineage chart belong to a well known martial historian with Scuffell's name and so-called lineage neatly added! If anything, you have been misled by Scuffell.

Reply]
Well, if you have his lineage, contact the people he learned from on the chart.

Quote:
Again, you are not talking to the right people. There are a lot of Tai Tzu people that don't know me either, but there are a lot that do too. Also, being a White Cran practitioner yourself, you surely must know how closed door those guys are. It's doubtfull you would be told if you were not *In* the family.
Sorry again but you are mistaken. Who are the so-called "right people" in White Crane that I should be talking to in relation to Scuffell's claims? White Crane is a Closed Door art. I know as I am inside the "Closed Door" hence my knowing of the right people to talk to. They don't like people claiming to be White Crane if they are not! I have talked to Dong Mu-Yau's people as they are the ones whose forms Scuffell ripped off and they have never ever heard of the guy.

Reply]
How do you know he ripped off those forms? Maybe he was taught them from another branch of the line that you are not aware of. Again, you do have his lineage chart, contact his teachers.

Also, I have some of my best material from a certain top level, highly respected internal lineage, but if you go to the head of it he would never know who I am becasue I learned the knowledge from one of his seniors informally at his home.

No one but me and that senior know. You would have to go through an astronomical effort to track down EVERY senior this master ever taught, find their personal info, and contact them asking about me. Most don't have schools, so you would be looking for thier home phone numbers....good luck finding that. Just asking the Grand Master would get you nowhere as he is not even aware this training occurred.


I talked to Feihequan (Flying Crane ) people as this is the art Scuffell claimed to be teaching and guess what .... surprise! They did not know of him either. I have talked to my connections direct in Fuzhou China and lo and behold, they too have never heard of him. In FACT, no-one in the White Crane community has heard of Scuffell


Reply]
See my reply above....

or his so-called unverifiable instructor Lui Hong Shen! Are you saying the people I contacted are all liars?

Reply]
Liu Hong Shen was his *Tai Tzu* teacher. Of course they would not have heard of him!!!

Quote:
David Kash, and Edgar Livingston are the least credible people in the world to go to if you want to verify Jamie's claims. Same with the other guy. All of them live in the USA. Jamie lives in Townsville Australia, half a world away. He has never had anything more than associate contact with any of them, ever. They have no clue as to what he has really done, or not done.
They may say the same about you.

Reply]
They do say the same thing about me....you know this becasue you contacted them when we had that big fight with each other last year, which is just further proof of how little they know about anything outside of thier own little, minuscule world.(I broke relations with Livingston over that for misrepresenting me btw)

However you are not the subject here, Scuffell is. And they both claim that he is only someone who learned via video and not to a very good level! They have his video of his so-called Tai Zhu etc and were not impressed. They may or may not be credible but Scuffell was associated with them and WAS learning from them via video.

Reply]
Those guys all exchanged video's when they were associated with one another. No one learned anything from them. I was part of that at the time. Jamie got videos of me too, but I highly doubt he tried to do anything I gave him.

It was just an exchange to see the systems that each was doing.

Quote:
Then don't learn from him if you don't like his teaching style. Also, I have hours, and hours, and hours of footage of him training his senior students. *ALL* of them are highly skilled in the styles he is teaching....they didn't get that way in a vacuum.
Sorry again. I have met Scuffell personally. Questioned him. Seen him stuff up his form three times in a row and I have it all on video. I met two of his students both of whom were nice guys and much, much better in skill than Scuffell was!

Reply]
That right there says it all. You know a teacher by his students. If they have the skill, then he is legit. You just answered all your own questions.

This is Fact. I have no desire to train under him in his mix-match of so-called "White Crane, "Wing Chun" and "Tai Zhu"

Reply]
Then don't.



Gian, I have named names and given you straight up information. I have not made any of this up....... I have no need to .... I have nothing to gain in this other than the plain simple truth that Scuffell is grossly misrepresenting the art of White Crane via is outrageous claims. Can you give me any actual hard, solid, locked in concrete PROOF that Scuffell is what he says he is other than a few emails , phone calls, videos and say so. Of course he's not going to tell you he made it all up now is he! Please give me some real and verifiable proof or contacts.

Reply]
Ok, First off we are not talking just a few E-mails, we are talking 10 years of communication.

Second, I don't care what he claims, he shows verbally he knows what he is doing, and in the videos he sent me he clearly shows the body knowledge.

And Thirdly, YOU yourself say his students are skilled...which means he HAS to be legit or they would suck, since he is the source of thier skill. Remember, you know the teacher, by the student. Everything you need to know, you already have.

RD

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

He also goes by the names "Lu Lu Ke" and "Wei Guo Hao" .... WTF!

Reply]
Someone with your experience knows very well inner door students often take on Chinese names when they Bai si

[golden arhat]

Royal Dragon (Gian),





Who certified Scuffle as a Tai Zhu practitioner? Have you actually seen his certification as actual proof of his claims?




i'm an mma guy

would you like to see a piece of paper tha certifies in fact that i am a mixed martial artist

there isnt a piece of paper that qualifies you as some thing or another
these are all just western inventions etc

do you really think that the grand masters throughout the centurys all had bits of paper to certify them as "masters" ?




oh


and umm why do you care about any of this anwyay ?

odds are alot of what all three of you are doing doesnt work very well anyway




-fred

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

there isnt a piece of paper that qualifies you as some thing or another
these are all just western inventions etc

do you really think that the grand masters throughout the centurys all had bits of paper to certify them as "masters" ?


Reply]
Forms were originally created to be the certificates. That is why they were ONLY taught last, to those who mastered the whole system and could fight with it.

[Minghequan]

Gaian,

Man you must spend some time on the net! Today is my day off (I'm a Security Operative) so I am surfing the net and kicking back.

To answer you would take forever so I will do a blanket answer here.

Scuffell's two students were okay. Much better than him. But they had trained in other arts with other teachers so this is no proof at all of Scuffell's so-so skills. They were simply people who picked up the martial arts well. I am (modestly) one of those type of people. There are a few of us out there you know!

Scuffell's actual skills were mediocre to say the best. He was off balance, static and robotic and well it was basically unflattering to watch him!

As for contact people, I have and they all say that they have never heard of him. Go figure!

As for him being in the military .... ah that would be a big NO!

Shen Zhao Pai was and is his name for his so-called "White Crane" Pai as you are well aware refers to a particular clan. You yourself stated that Scuffle's "Pai" was in Tai Zhu not Fuzhou White Crane.

To save being long-wined here, the sad TRUTH is that you cannot verify his claims in ant valid and accurate way other than email, phone and a video.

FACT: Scuffell does NOT do or teach Fuzhou White Crane. This is verifiable\

FACT: He is NOT recognised by anybody within the White Crane community.This is verifiable

FACT: He learnt from Video, a malaise which seems to effect modern martial arts as everyone is "learning" from video. This is verifiable

FACT: No one can provide any info on his teacher "Lui Hong Shen" be it in White Crane or Tai Zhu.

FACT: His Lineage chart is a cut and paste job and not verifiable and it also stated that "Liu Hong Shen" (Oh Great Mysterious One!) actually taught Baihequan (look it up) which is last time I looked WHITE CRANE and NOT TAI ZHU!

FACT: The Lineage chart also states that the art of the Great and Mysterious (Tongue planted firmly in cheek) "Liu Hong Shen" is a instructor of Feihequan or Flying Crane-Fist ... Yep thats Right, "Flying Crane-Fist" and not Tai Zhu as you have claimed!


FACT: No one has chimed in to support your claims and you cannot provide any actual verifiable factual evidence to back up what you say was "told" to you by Scuffell!

None of your argument is based in actual Fact! All you seem to be doing is hammering in more virtual nails into Scuffell's coffin!
Need I say more?:(

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Well, Ok then you apparently have this all figured out!! :p

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Shen Zhao Pai was and is his name for his so-called rip off "White Crane" Pai as you are well aware refers to a particular clan. You yourself stated that Scuffle's "Pai" was in Tai Zhu not Fuzhou White Crane.

Reply]
No, Shen Zhao Pai is the name of Jamie's SCHOOL!!! He named it that in honor of his Late Tai Tzu teacher.

[Minghequan]

No, Shen Zhao Pai is the name of Jamie's SCHOOL!!! He named it that in honor of his Late Tai Tzu teacher.

Cool. Then a simple and easily answerable question for you ;).... why then does the "lineage" chart given to me personally by Scuffell state quite clearly (I can reproduce and post it if needed) that the great, mystical and magical "Liu Hong Shen" is a WHITE CRANE TEACHER?:confused:

You say he is a Tai Zhu teacher. :eek:

Could it be that Scuffell is simply telling lies (Oh No!):(

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Maybe he knew both styles.

[Minghequan]

Oh come on now Gian, your really clutching at straws now:D

Maybe if my Aunt had Balls she'd be my Uncle!

What do you hope to gain by backing up Scuffell.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

i'm not backing anything up, just pointing out that you might be misunderstanding things.

Zhao Shen was his Tai Tzu teacher. Who is Liu Hong? You are giving me two separate names here.

[Minghequan]

i'm not backing anything up, just pointing out that you might be misunderstanding things.

Zhao Shen was his Tai Tzu teacher. Who is Liu Hong? You are giving me two separate names here.

Sorry Buddy but you got it wrong again.:eek:

The Lineage chart clearly states that Lui Hong Shen was the founder of Shen Zhao Pai. So how could Scuffell have named it after his Tai Zhu teacher if its written that its named after the mysterious Liu Hong Shen and his "SHEN ZHAO PAI":confused:

I can also show you a web site in which it clearly states:

SIfu Jamie Scuffell of the Shen Jao Pai Athletic Association in Townsville will be coming to visit Fire Dragon on 17 and 18 November. Sifu Scuffell teaches Shaking Crane - a unique White Crane style - and will offer seminars to members of Fire Dragon. Training will be at the Ainslie Club premises.

It says Scuffell teaches ..... wait for it! ...... "Shaking Crane" ..... Oh No! that blows your argument out of the water!;)

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

It says Scuffell teaches ..... wait for it! ...... "Shaking Crane" ..... Oh No! that blows your argument out of the water!

Reply]
I don't see how, I told you originally he started with Tai Tzu Crane, and explored other types of Crane as well.

Show me the link.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Shen Jao Pai Athletic Association

Reply]
WAIT, STOP, Hold the presses!!

I think I messed up!! :o

I think Shen Zhao Pai is the association he founded, not his school. All his seniors are members of it now that they are running thier own schools. I forgot about that. His school is (Or was) Zhi Pu Yun Dong Wu Su Guan.

Sorry for the confusion!!
LOL do i feel stupid now!!! :o

[Minghequan]

How do you know he explored other types of Crane and how do you explain that if he named his school after his Tai Zhu teacher (which by the way no one can confirm) that he states in black and white on his *cough "Lineage Chart" *cough that his teacher ids one "Liu Hong Shen" of the "Shen Zhao Pai? C'mon Gian its a simple straight forward question to answer!

[Minghequan]

See there's that much bulldust thats got you confused!

LOL No problem Gian but that still does not explain why his "Lineage Chart" states that "Liu Hong Shen" was the founder of the "Shen Zhao Pai".

Jamie's actual patch back then when I met him was a tiger and a monkey not a crane!

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

How do you know he explored other types of Crane

Reply]
He told me so.

and how do you explain that if he named his school after his Tai Zhu teacher (which by the way no one can confirm) that he states in black and white on his *cough "Lineage Chart" *cough that his teacher ids one "Liu Hong Shen" of the "Shen Zhao Pai? C'mon Gian its a simple straight forward question to answer!

Reply]
Did you say you had a link to some of this?

Maybe Liu Hong was a member of his athletic association? I would have to contact him and ask...have you got me a phone number yet?

[Minghequan]

Seems to me you have a bloody heap of questions to ask him mate!!!

Here's the link to the site:

http://www.firedragon.com.au/newsflash/2443449875.html

And here's an email of a guy that might know how to contact him:

MasterHardy@firedragon.com.au

Here's a phone number of Neal Hardy who might be able to put you in touch with Scuffell:

(02) 6241 2073

You can't say that I have not been forthcoming with the truth. Lets hope Scuffell himself will explain all his claims in person.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Cool, Thanks!!

[Minghequan]

No problems Gian!

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Going to sleep now, Nite nite!

[Minghequan]

Have a good one Mate!

Keep me posted on any developments.:)

[doug maverick]

just want to know why do you want to know all this information?

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

He does this every year around this time.

[golden arhat]

He does this every year around this time.

the planets are in alignment

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

the planets are in alignment

Reply]
Could be. I think he is early this time though. Last time it was around January I think.

[doug maverick]

i still want to know why wants this information. and he's arguing you down. you have no reason to defend this guy, the sifu in question. we all know there's alot of ways of telling a fake one is just to see his form you can;t learn real martial arts through tapes sorry but you can;t. the next and the one my teacher likes the best is fighting if the guy whips your ass then you gotta shut the f uck up. so old guy just challenge the sifu and if you beat him then he can;t say anything and if you lose go about your business and stop trying to trash people for no reason. what did you try and hit on the guy and he turned you away???

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

we all know there's alot of ways of telling a fake one is just to see his form you can;t learn real martial arts through tapes sorry but you can;t

Reply]
Agreed. I actually have a lot of footage of Jamie. He's definitely got the goods. You may not be able to learn from a video, but you can see if someone knows thier art from watching one easily enough.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

the next and the one my teacher likes the best is fighting if the guy whips your ass then you gotta shut the f uck up.

Reply]
The problem with fighting a guy is you still can't fully judge if he kicked your ass with the style in question, or if he used another style.

Example; lets say he claims to be a Bagua Sifu. Y disagree, and you guys fight. Well, he kicks your ass good an proper, but did it with Boxing.

Did you answer the question about his skills in Bagua? Nope. All you know now is that he can Box too.

To really know, you need to see his over all skills. Have him demonstrate his basic drills, discuss his understanding of fundamentals, his knowledge of structure and body mechanics, the styles training methods and it's actual strategies. If he does a stle with forms, let him show it.

After, you can fight him. Make sure you have an independent observer in the style in question (or a camera to record it) so you can verify he actually fought with his style.

I have hours, and hours, and hours of video of the Jamie and his students showing a variety of thier skills. I even have him engaging in alive, resisting free fighting exercises with his seniors (one even eats an elbow and must be attended to). I have him and his students showing forms, applications and sound fundamentals across the various styles he does (including some not even mentioned so far). Personally, I am convinced he's legit.

[golden arhat]

The problem with fighting a guy is you still can't fully judge if he kicked your ass with the style in question, or if he used another style.




this is the biggest problem with cma


WHO CARES WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE ?


if he beats your arse his stuff is blates worth more than your stuff

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

if you claim to be doing a certain style, then you should be able to show skills in THAT style.

Now, if you don't claim to do a specific style, and just claim to be able to fight, then all you need to show is that you can fight.

[Minghequan]

Why do I post about Scuffell? Simple! I actually care about the bad name his "claims" bring to the White Crane community both in Australia and abroad.

I am not "arguing" with Gian. In fact I find him quite nice and friendly. His discussions on this matter are flawed and he has not successfully answered my questions but he has been respectful and friendly and I give him full credit for that.

As for video, everything nowadays in martial arts seem to revolve around videos and or DVD's for "instructional" purposes. We are now a fast paced consumer society and video instruction now seems (sadly) to be the norm when hands on instruction seems to be a dying art of transmission.

I don't care how "great" Scuffell seems on tape as it is only video after all and not the real live deal which is what really matters and how can one with no actual training and experience in real Fuzhou Crane make an assessment of what constitutes real Fuzhou Crane? Part of the "jack of all trades, master of none" syndrome endemic within martial arts today.
Why not simply be honest about it all instead of making it up? Why not stand on ones own merits instead of living in a fantasy world about ones arts? Surely one would gain more respect by simply being honest!

The plain simple truth is Scuffell is NOT now or was he ever an Instructor of White Crane! He may have played around with some Wing Chun and Tai Zhu but he is doing the arts and himself a dis-service by making such claims.


if you claim to be doing a certain style, then you should be able to show skills in THAT style.

Again, I once again ask a very simple question that requires a straight up and simple answer: What training have you Gian had in Fuzhou White Crane to make such a judgement?

If you have no experience of Fuzhou Crane then please simply say so. No Dramas. Just be up-front and honest about it and state your sources.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

The plain simple truth is Scuffell is NOT now or was he ever an Instructor of White Crane! He may have played around with some Wing Chun and Tai Zhu but he is doing the arts and himself a dis-service by making such false claims.

Reply]
Playing around with Tai Tzu? That is his specialty!! LOL!!

Wing Chun is a style he is also well versed in.

Also, Jamie was learning white crane years, and years, and years ago. Don't you think he should be able to teach by now?

What proof do you have that he is making False claims? Because a couple people out of the 8 billion that live on this planet don't know him?

I have experience in John Tsai's Kung fu system, and I can guarantee that if you went to Master Tsai he would not know who I am becasue one of his seniors was my primary teacher, not him. John Tsai has trained countless people to black belt. You would have to track down every single one of them to find the few that know me. If you don't know the exact people to ask, you are going to be told that they never heard of me.

In Jamie's case, do you know the exact people to ask? Or did you just go ask the most accessible person you could find?

The truth is, you can't definitively prove if he is a fraud or not. It's all just your jumping to conclusions based on a flimsy attempt at scratching the surface.

Now, he may, or may not be. Either way you can't say one way or the other. Your "Proof" that he is, is weaker than the proof I have that he is not (which you don't accept btw). You are running around defaming him and making charges and claims about him that you could never back up.

[Minghequan]

Gian,

Once again I ask where is your actual solid proof that Scuffell learnt Fuzhou White Crane other than his say so in emails and phone calls? Its not a trick question mate and one that you should be able to answer without all the long-winded evasion tactics. JUST ANSWER THE QUESTION!

I have Scuffell's own documentation. What proof do you have? Simple Question so please answer.

Again, I once again ask a very simple question that requires a straight up and simple answer: What training have you Gian had in Fuzhou White Crane to make such a judgment?

If you have no experience of Fuzhou Crane then please simply say so. No Dramas. Just be up-front and honest about it and state your sources.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Gian,

Once again I ask where is your actual solid proof that Scuffell learnt Fuzhou White Crane other than his say so in emails and phone calls? Its not a trick question mate and one that you should be able to answer without all the long-winded evasion tactics. JUST ANSWER THE QUESTION!

Reply]
Aside from your flimsy claims, where is your *Solid* proof he's not legit?

I at least have video of him TEACHING the style, to students who are pretty darn competent with thier skills (know a teacher by his students and all that). You have what? A few guys who don't know him anyway, telling you they don't know him? What kind of proof is that?


I have Scuffell's own documentation. What proof do you have? Simple Question so please answer.

Again, I once again ask a very simple question that requires a straight up and simple answer: What training have you Gian had in Fuzhou White Crane to make such a judgment?

Reply]
I have had enough contact with White crane guys in the past to know what the basic details are...enough to know if someone else has the fundamentals or not. I told you this before.

[Minghequan]

Aside from your flimsy claims, where is your *Solid* proof he's not legit?

I at least have video of him TEACHING the style, to students who are pretty darn competent with thier skills (know a teacher by his students and all that). You have what? A few guys who don't know him anyway, telling you they don't know him? What kind of proof is that?

Ok I'll actually answer your questions in the hope that you will actually answer mine without doing your best to evade them.

1/. I unlike you, have actually met and seen and questioned Scuffell in person. I have with my open two eyes seen him "perform" his so called White Crane and after some 35 years plus experience in the martial arts I think I know the real art when i see it and this was nothing but Wing Chun dressed up to be some type of self made "Crane" As stated previously, I have seen in person Scuffell actually stuff up his form over three times before then getting it so-called right and then forgetting moves. In addition I have testimony from other martial artists in Townsville who actually know Scuffell including some from his own school who state that Scuffell is in their esteemed opinion based on actual hands on experience and witness, not true White Crane. I have his so called "lineage" chart in black and white. Thirdly, I have the testimony of people actually in the White Crane community!

Now lets examine what you have as solid proof shall we? 1/. You have phone calls in which Scuffell tells you he's legit, you have a emails in which Scuffell tells you he's legit. You have a video in which Scuffell asserts he's legit. You DO NOT HAVE any hands-on personal experience or viewing and questioning of Scuffell. You only have video footage of him.. You DO NOT HAVE any reliable, trustworthy and independent witnesses who can confirm that Scuffel is what he claims to be. You HAVE NOT CONTACTED anyone of note within the real White Crane Community who will verify Scuffell's claims. I in fact communicated with Fuzhou China today on this very matter.


I have had enough contact with White crane guys in the past to know what the basic details are...enough to know if someone else has the fundamentals or not. I told you this before.

Ok Gian, Name your totally reliable "White Crane Guys" who actually have knowledge of Scuffell, his claims and his skill in actual Real White Crane!

Again, I once again ask a very simple question that requires a straight up and simple answer: What training have you Gian had in Fuzhou White Crane to make such a judgment?

[golden arhat]

tbh minghequan

it seems you are just arguing for arguments sake
you have made up your mind already

ask yourself this

if minghe turns out tio be right and this guy is a "fraud"
whats going to come of it

when people ask you about him
u will say he is a fraud (as i'm sure you already do) and that will be that

you wont affect his school or who he is teaching at all


and we both know you arent going to g over there and beat his arse in front of his students

because you both know that it will end up looking like an average street fight
as odds are you both wont know what to do in a real fight as lets be honest now

TMA probably hasnt equipped you for such an encounter very well especially wehn focusing on how you both look (your crane vs his crane etc)

you will both end up windmilling and looking very foolish resulting in embarrassment for both parties

i could be wrong but if you think he is a fraud or not has bollocks all to do with whatever anyone thinks of him more than likely

so you carry on what you are doing safe in the knowledge that yours is the "real" stuff



:rolleyes::rolleyes:

[Minghequan]

Golden Arhat (Fred is it?),

Interesting. Thanks for your input. Its interesting to hear such views from someone so young (Your 16 years old right?) I"m sure the same could be said of Royal Dragon too but regardless of your opinion, fighting is not the issue here, truth is. As for my skill in fighting as a result of my involvement as you put it in TMA well I have tested my art and do so sadly on a regular basis in my line of employment and have come through it all pretty ok.

Thanks for your post though! :)

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Ok I'll actually answer your questions in the hope that you will actually answer mine without doing your best to evade them.

1/. I unlike you, have actually met and seen and questioned Scuffell in person. I have with my open two eyes seen him "perform" his so called White Crane and after some 35 years plus experience in the martial arts I think I know the real art when i see it and this was nothing but Wing Chun dressed up to be some type of self made "Crane" As stated previously, I have seen in person Scuffell actually stuff up his form over three times before then getting it so-called right and then forgetting moves.

Reply]
Jamie is not really a forms guy though, he's a techniques and application oriented.


In addition I have testimony from other martial artists in Townsville who actually know Scuffell including some from his own school who state that Scuffell is in their esteemed opinion based on actual hands on experience and witness, a fraud. I have his so called "lineage" chart in black and white. Thirdly, I have the testimony of people actually in the White Crane community!

Reply]
Honestly dude, I really don't believe you. You have not shown me anything but flimsy claims so far.

Now lets examine what you have as solid proof shall we? 1/. You have phone calls in which Scuffell tells you he's legit

Reply]
No, I have years of contact where he and I have had long and deep discussion about martial arts. If he didn't know his game, it would have been apparent right away. It's not his claims, but his underlying knowledge that shows through during intellectual discussions. I have had similar conversations with you, and you clearly showed you don't know very much

, you have a emails in which Scuffell tells you he's legit.

Reply]
No, I have very knowledgeable communications with him. If he wasn't, he would not have been able to hold his own in conversation with me.

You have a video in which Scuffell asserts he's legit. You DO NOT HAVE any hands-on personal experience or viewing and questioning of Scuffell.

Reply]
So, who cares. I can clearly see he's got the skills in the video I have.

You only have video footage of him.. You DO NOT HAVE any reliable, trustworthy and independent witnesses who can confirm that Scuffel is what he claims to be.

Reply]
I don't need it, I can see for myself he's got game.

You HAVE NOT CONTACTED anyone of note within the real White Crane Community who will verify Scuffell's claims. I in fact communicated with Fuzhou China today on this very matter.

Reply]
Again, you have contacted people who don't know him, asked about his legitimacy and was told they never heard of him....like Duuhhh!!! :rolleyes:


Quote:
I have had enough contact with White crane guys in the past to know what the basic details are...enough to know if someone else has the fundamentals or not. I told you this before.
Ok Gian, Name your totally reliable "White Crane Guys" who actually have knowledge of Scuffell, his claims and his skill in actual Real White Crane!

Reply]
The guys I used to know were able to show me the fundamentals. I then took that knowledge and compared it to Jamie's movement and was able to see he has the same fundamentals. I didn't need anyone to tell me he's credible. I can see it for myself.

Again, I once again ask a very simple question that requires a straight up and simple answer: What training have you Gian had in Fuzhou White Crane to make such a judgment?

Reply]
I thought I made it clear I have had some informal experience from years ago. Do I have to Blue Print it for you?

[Minghequan]

Gian,

With all due respect your evading directly answering my questions to you. Your running around light a rabbit caught in headlights.

Mate it's this simple: ANSWER THE QUESTIONS. A simple YES, NO , Or I DON'T KNOW would suffice and save you a great deal of Keyboard time! Your long winded replies prove nothing except that you are evading the questions.

1/. Who did you study with in Fuzhou White Crane to make such an informed decision?

2/. Who are the "White Crane Guys" names that you mentioned in your post? I can name people, can you?

Do you want me to send you a copy of Scuffell's so called Lineage chart as proof.? Do you want me to name people that have said that Scuffell is not what he says he is? I can back up everything I say , can you. How about publishing some of those famous emails from Scuffell then?

The truth is that you and I both no the real truth, your just too blind to admit it and keep throwing up long-winded responses when a simple answer would reveal all.

[Minghequan]

Gian,

As you are aware I have emailed you items of my proof including a copy of his made up lineage chart for his so called White Crane has also been sent to you. As for my White Crane knowledge then you can go to my web site at:

http://www.whitecranefist.co.nr

Contact the Army in Townsville and actually ask about Scuffell being the so-called Army Combative Instructor. What do you have to lose by finding out the actual truth of his claims?

As I have taken the first step in providing this information will you know have the common courtesy and respect to answer my questions and provide your own "proof"?

1/. Who did you study with in Fuzhou White Crane to make such an informed decision?

2/. Who are the "White Crane Guys" names that you mentioned in your post? I can name people, can you?

I can back up everything I say, can you? How about publishing some of those famous emails from Scuffell then?

[Minghequan]

i have posted about this person in the past. Basically he is full of sh1t. I had the misfortune of training with him 10 years ago and he claimed he was-
-a gold sash
-south African mercenary
-lived for 13 years in a sholin temple ( even though he lost the plot in record time)we asked his mum and she said all he ever did was stay on the dole and do nothing at home.
-he become a bouncer in townsville and lasted 3 weeks he got knocked out 3 times.
-he has a scare on his chin- ask him how he got it. the truth is he was working on the door of The Bank Nightclub and a patron hit him once and split him and knocked him out.

-he left his wife and child to hook up with Marie and basically training invloved going over to his house to to the same drills over and over while he went inside and smoked dope. he nearly got deported over this.
sorry to dissappoint. i like many others got swindled too.

Go here for the original post:

http://www.sportzblitz.net/Forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5595&SearchTerms=jamie,scuffell

Phone numbers for Townsville Military:

Office Hours: (07) 4771 1602 After Hours: 0407 467 235

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

1. You have shown nothing to support your claims so far.

2. You wanted my opinion of the man, I told you.

3. You wanted to know how I came about that opinion, and I told you that too.

4. Now you are trying to convince me to see it your way, yet have given me nothing substantial.

On another note:

Tai Tzu Crane
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPGe8ZXa0hg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBiaWfUGKys

http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?p=r&user=eric88ling&page=17

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmz3bwTiAxw

You had mentioned Tai Tzu Crane was not from Fuzhou?

Fuzhou Tai Tzu crane
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdlZb-QSzFk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spNNcNkCzhA

[Minghequan]

RD,

Anybody can post and say its anything on YouTube. I could post a video on YouTube and call it Quacking Duck Crane for whatever its worth. Beside it actually states its Fuzhou Ancestral Crane not Tai Zhu Crane.

Your not that naive are you? Again your grasping at straws while evading the truth.

I gave you some proofs of what I have been saying and all you can do is post bull, Lets have some actual proof from your side of the pond.

FACT: I have given you contacts!

FACT: I have given you names!

FACT: I have given you the so-called Lineage Chart!

FACT: I Have given you the Townsville Military's Contact Numbers so you could actually phone them yourself to find out who's telling the truth.

All you keep writing is the same old tired rhetoric!!!

At least I've had the balls to answer your questions directly and not evade them.

Again two very simple questions for you:

1/. Who did you study with in Fuzhou White Crane to make such an informed decision?

2/. Who are the "White Crane Guys" names that you mentioned in your post? I can name people, can you?

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Fuzhou Ancestral Crane not Tai Zhu Crane.

Reply]
Tai Tzu (Zhu)= Great Ancestor. It's the same style, just different spelling of it. An expert like you should know this stuff, it's not like it's much of a secret or anything.

As for my white crane experience, I have told you numerous times already I had informal study with some white Crane guys Years, and Years ago.

I am not going to name names, it's not relevant to this discussion anyway. besides everyone knows I generally do not discuss my live teachers on public forums. I have gotten in too much trouble in the past.

You can look thru every thread I have ever posted on, and unless someone I know from the line is on here too, I don't discuss who my live teachers are. It's just a matter of good ettiquite because I get into a lot of heated debates and it's just not good personal politics to draw all my teachers into the fire storms I periodically get myself into. So stop asking for names. You know all you need to know. I don't need guys I haven't seen in 8 years looking me up, all ****ed off over some stupid thing with you.

[Minghequan]

Mate you will not name names because you cannot. I am calling you out on this one. You state that you trained with "White Crane Guys" well mate before your dementia sets in, give me some actual names otherwise your claims are nothing but a heap of hot air from a dirty orifice!

I have emailed you actual names yet you cannot supply even one single solitary name to back up your claims. You can give me the names privately via email without their names ever being made public. So that's just not a valid excuse its just more smoke blowing out of you! No need to name them in a public manner, a simple email to me will do nicely thank you very much. But I am willing to bet I will never receive such an email from you as there are no "White Crane Guys" that you can name.

Why are you hiding Gian? Give me a name or take your bat and ball and go home. Its game over for you.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I have not made any claims. I only answered your questions about why I felt Jamie's claims are credible.

You do not need to know the names of anyone, only that I have spent a bit of time around White crane guys, and feel that what Jamie does is comparable to them.

As for the names you dropped, NONE of them are even remotely connected to the line Jamie is from, and wouldn't know him from Adam. You going to these people who have never met him, know nothing of his line and nothing about him and asking who he is, then calling him a fraud becasue they don't know, is simply Laughable.

NO ONE you mentioned is even ON the lineage chart you sent me, let alone in the line Jamie's name is found on.

Your whole campaign is a joke. You have nothing at all to support your claims or positions. What you are doing is defamation of character. If I were you, I'd be worried about getting sued again like what happened with the last guy that you senselessly tried to lynch.

[Minghequan]

Mate, mate, mate. Again you can't answer me. Such a shame you have to hide behind such a smokescreen. As for being sued, for what, for asking simple questions, I think not.

The people are not connected to Scufflell’s Line because its his own line! It’s that simple. No–one has actually heard of any of his so called line!

I ask people to simply look into MR. Scuffell's claims and they will soon come to their own conclusions That's the beauty of a discussion forum such as this.

End of discussion mate. At least people will be able to find their own answers and not be as so gullible to swallow something simply because someone said it on the phone, in a email or (God Forbid!) on a video LOL:)

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Well, it looks like we each have our own opinion, and neither of us will be swayed by the other, so I don't see a point in continuing this.

It's almost midnite here, I am really tired.

Good nite.

[Minghequan]

I rest may case!:):):)

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Good Nite Ronnnnnnnnn!

[Minghequan]

Have a good one Gian :p

[golden arhat]

I rest may case!:):):)

and what have you achieved :rolleyes:





you asked his opinion

he gave you it



then you had a go at him for it when it was you yourself that wanted to know it







child

[Minghequan]

I"m being "lectured" by a 16 year old LOL.:) And you are???

I got the information out there so people can make up their own minds. Is this not the purpose of this forum?

[golden arhat]

I"m being "lectured" by a 16 year old LOL.:) And you are???

I got the information out there so people can make up their own minds. Is this not the purpose of this forum?

how are they making theyre own minds up when once they have you tell lecture them on exactly why they are wrong


so what if i am 16 ?
what does that prove ? only a fool would hinge their argument against me based on my age



makes you wonder who the real child is

[Minghequan]

LOL!

Mate relax, take a chill pill. The discussion is over and people will make up their own minds based on both Royal Dragon's and my own posts.

Don't take things to heart mate. Relax Dude!:):):)

Really, I'm sorry if I have offended you re: your age.

Best wishes to you

[golden arhat]

LOL!

Mate relax, take a chill pill. The discussion is over and people will make up their own minds based on both Royal Dragon's and my own posts.

Don't take things to heart mate. Relax Dude!:):):)

Really, I'm sorry if I have offended you re: your age.

Best wishes to you

fair doos


(y)





fred