poses an interesting thought about gradings

[packard]

Hi All,

My teacher was discussing gradings recently. we have a student who is really good at every thing from sparring, to forms, fitness, flexibility - a good all rounder.

However, he does have serious attitude and an arogance about him.

my teacher acknowledges his skill but says that he is not ready to grade for his black belt because of his attitude.

is this right?? he has good skill and has standard beyond most of the black belts in the class, but he won't get his becuase of an attitude!

any thoughts??

P

[hskwarrior]

My Sifu Always Had A Saying......

"i Don't Need Tough Guys In My School, They're Already Tough!!!!"

[David Jamieson]

a black belt and golden gloves, are not the same thing.

what does the black belt represent in your school?

is it a measure of foms, skill and ability in martial art or is it a measure of kungfu?

I don't see a problem with not wanting an ass making claim to a senior rank in your organization.

He can always join a beltless club and just do his thing there or take up something else that doesn't bother with a persons character at all.

[NJM]

Hi All,

My teacher was discussing gradings recently. we have a student who is really good at every thing from sparring, to forms, fitness, flexibility - a good all rounder.

However, he does have serious attitude and an arogance about him.

my teacher acknowledges his skill but says that he is not ready to grade for his black belt because of his attitude.

is this right?? he has good skill and has standard beyond most of the black belts in the class, but he won't get his becuase of an attitude!

any thoughts??

P

I think that if a blackbelt represents the highest exponent of your school, making sure that person will represent your school well does have some importance.

However, it's not your instructor's job to instill basic morals and proper conduct in grown men. You are part of a martial arts gym, not a preschool.

What style do you practice?

[golden arhat]

do away with belts






simple






:)

[cranky old man]

agreed dont use belts do gradings like boxing you move up when you can handle someone more skilled. one of my friends from the past either master shintani founder of the wado kai or bob dauglish a 6th in goju told me over 40 years ago belts are just to hold up your pants and a black belt is when you start really learning.

[SIFU RON]

Belts and Grading have always been a touchy subject.

If you use them , don't abuse them.

Attitude is an important factor in my opinion. Many people look up to Sifu's and teachers, especially the ones that are sincere. Bad attitudes don't cut it in our schools.

[ngokfei]

Rankings are to acknowledge individuals who have been indoctrinated into a particular order.

It of course has nothing to do with an individuals skill. People like to be around people like themselves.

If this is a requirement at your school then its best to tell students about them before they join your school. has your teacher informed this student of his decision?

Actually there could be legal ramifications against the school if the student decided to pursue it. Kind of like discrimination etc.

[SanHeChuan]

Black belts represent their teacher, so If you don't want someone rep-ing you. Don't promote them.

If you can withhold a belt for skill you can certainly hold it for attitude. Most only hold it for money though.

But if they are that bad, you shouldn't even teach them to begin with. Does he expect to teach this student humility or something? Not an easy thing to do.


However, it's not your instructor's job to instill basic morals and proper conduct in grown men. You are part of a martial arts gym, not a preschool.

It's his job to teach what the F*ck ever he wants. It's his school and there is no governing body. If the students don't want to learn what he is teaching they can leave, that is his only limitation for curriculum.


Actually there could be legal ramifications against the school if the student decided to pursue it. Kind of like discrimination etc.

less so if he was clear with his expectation for testing. If he said up front character was part of getting promoted...
He'd still have to prove that the student didn't meet those expectations. That would be a trick. Maybe a psych test. :eek:

[ngokfei]

1. Is this teacher running a professional School? or just a Club?

2. Does the student sign a contract?

3. Is there a document that lists the specific requirements for ranking? Does this include items like Attitude, etc?

Generally if the student has satisfied all the requirements for taking the ranking test, the teacher cannot suddenly instill new requirements. If the student is breaking any documented rules then the teacher should dismiss/cancel his agreement with this student. Otherwise they might and should be sued for breach of contract.

This would most likely include all Tuition ever paid to the teacher/school and damages for wasting the students time with false promises, etc.

[EarthDragon]

Pacard, I commend your shifu.

I have many times not passed or promoted a student based on similar things.

I had a student who was awesome at kung fu, however that was in class..........he was not so awesome outside of the class.

A black belt is not just a ranking of skill it is a ranking of integrity.

[tattooedmonk]

Hi All,

My teacher was discussing gradings recently. we have a student who is really good at every thing from sparring, to forms, fitness, flexibility - a good all rounder.

However, he does have serious attitude and an arogance about him.

my teacher acknowledges his skill but says that he is not ready to grade for his black belt because of his attitude.

is this right?? he has good skill and has standard beyond most of the black belts in the class, but he won't get his becuase of an attitude!

any thoughts??

PI agree with your teacher and others in this thread. I do not understand how a few others add different elements into the equation that have nothng to do with your question.

As for it being a martial arts school and not a preschool I find that quite funny.

Why is it that I keep hearing that martial arts schools should not be responsible for teaching; discipline , honor , respect , humility, and the like and that these are things that should be taught at home??.

With great power comes great responsibility.

It is easy to say do not let this person join or whatever , but what if the lack of these things developes or only reveals themselves long after the person has joined?? What if someone comes in that lacks these fundamentals and wants to have them or learn them, should you not be able to help them obtain them??

Martial arts is more than learning how to punch ,kick , grappling, and fighting, it is our responsibility as instructors to teach students this.

[MasterKiller]

Martial arts is more than learning how to punch ,kick , grappling, and fighting, it is our responsibility as instructors to teach students this.

What qualifies you (or anyone else's sifu) to be someone elses' moral compass?

Generally, people with bad attitudes and poor work ethics get weeded out of schools that fight because their ego can't take it.

[tattooedmonk]

What qualifies you (or anyone else's sifu) to be someone elses' moral compass?

Generally, people with bad attitudes and poor work ethics get weeded out of schools that fight because their ego can't take it.I would say my degree in psychology and philosophy.:D:cool:

Any person who is a teacher and/or leader has the responsibility to teach others, mostly by example, how to use their skills and teachings for the betterment of our families, communties, and society.

There are laws , rules , and codes we all have to live by or we will get locked up for the rest of our lives.

What do you mean, specifically, by your last sentence and how it pertains to this?

[MasterKiller]

I would say my degree in psychology and philosophy.:D:cool: So immoral people can't hold degrees? All these degreed school teachers banging their students are qualified moral counselors?


Any person who is a teacher and/or leader has the responsibility to teach others, mostly by example, how to use their skills and teachings for the betterment of our families, communties, and society. See the Busted Teachers thread for my response to this, or Google "republican pedophiles" to see how others are leading by example...


What do you mean, specifically, by your last sentence and how it pertains to this? WHat I mean is that hard work in class, real work, weeds out a lot of undesirable people. The kind of people who need moral guidance from their martial arts instuctors aren't usually the kind of people who like to show up and sweat.

The troubled ones who stay on are bettered from learning how to work hard and perservere, not from the Kwai Chang Caine quotes the teacher espouses at the end of class every night.

[tattooedmonk]

So immoral people can't hold degrees? All these degreed school teachers banging their students are qualified moral counselors?

See the Busted Teachers thread for my response to this, or Google "republican pedophiles" to see how others are leading by example...

WHat I mean is that hard work in class, real work, weeds out a lot of undesirable people. The kind of people who need moral guidance from their martial arts instuctors aren't usually the kind of people who like to show up and sweat.#1. No, Educated people are less likely to do these things than uneducated people.

#2. Ok. But like I said educated people are less likely to do these things than uneducated people.The only reason you hear about it more now a days is because of mass forms of media and the decline of these teachings in the moral fiber of out society.


#3 Well obviously it did not ween out the guy refered to in the first post. This one basically substantiates #'s 1&2.

I do not believe this last part.

[MasterKiller]

#1. No, Educated people are less likely to do these things than uneducated people. I don't believe this for an instant. Educated people make immoral decisions all the time. Unless you have some stats, I'm calling this arm-chair sociology.


#2. Ok. But like I said educated people are less likely to do these things than uneducated people.The only reason you hear about it more now a days is because of mass forms of media and the decline of these teachings in the moral fiber of out society. Society is no "less moral" now than it was 200 years ago. That's a crock. Crusades, witch hunts, slavery,


#3 Well obviously it did not ween out the guy refered to in the first post. This one basically substantiates #'s 1&2. Depends. I said real work. What most TMAs consider hard work is a far cry from what you see in sport clubs.


I do not believe this last part. You don't have to believe it to make it so. At any rate, my point is that martial arts instructors cheat on their wives, cheat on their taxes, steal from Walgreens, waste work time on the internet, etc...in the same proportion as any other demographic. They are not above immoral behavior, so they probably have no business preaching morality, at least no more than your mailman, your butcher, or your favorite Faust-reading prostitute.

[tattooedmonk]

I am not saying they do not. Key words is LESS LIKELY . You do not think that educated people are LESS LIKELY than uneducated people to do these things?? Even if less means 49% to 51%??

The Crusades and witch hunts were based on spiritual beliefs and what people thought was right or wrong or good and evil. I know a lot of things happened in these events were not right or just ,but that does not mean that in the beginning that most peoples thoughts and actions were not governed by what they believed to be right or morally just, although many found out latter that they were mislead.

Real work?? This is subjective and a matter of perspective.

They should be above these things. I do admit that what you are saying is true , but they are LESS LIKELY to do it because of their teachings . It goes completely against what the martial arts stand for.

[MasterKiller]

that does not mean that in the beginning that most peoples thoughts and actions were not governed by what they believed to be right or morally just, although many found out latter that they were mislead.

Which is why you shouldn't put much stock in someone else's guidance in the first place.

[tattooedmonk]

Which is why you shouldn't put much stock in someone else's guidance in the first place.I agree , but there will always need to be leaders and followers and there will always be people who will do the right thing and the wrong thing.

I question everything. This is part of the reason I had a falling out with CSC.

[sanjuro_ronin]

People of dubious nature exist in all facets of life.
Regardless of education or morals.

No harm in a teacher thinking twice about teaching someone how to fight, that's not being moral, just responsible.

You get a lot of aholes on sport combat, but you get MORE in TMA and I think that is because of what MK said, aholes don't like getting beat up and don't last long.

That said, we teach aholes how to kill all the time, see the military for example, there is one in every unit.

Apples and Oranges I know, still.

I say again :No harm in a teacher thinking twice about teaching someone how to fight, that's not being moral, just responsible.

[KC Elbows]

The well publicized behavior of some ufc fighters kind of ruins any argument that the training rules out moral infants. I'm not saying it never works, but I would suggest that the team attitude can make more accommodations for poor behavior than less, vis a vis professional football players, college baseball players, and faust reading menage a oct practicing hookers.

Honestly, moral lessons come from all corners, it's how it's always been, its how it'll always be. It's half and half moral philosophy, inspiring example. It's a given in human interaction. Even the statement that competition weeds out bad characters is something approaching a moral philosophy, or at least something seen to work as a moral seive. Most people's morality comes from many disparate examples, experiences, and ideas.

There really is no problem with a martial arts teacher, or anyone else, sharing a philosophical view. It actually can help the listener judge whether they can rely on that person, based on whether they live up to their philosophy. If a student doesn't want to look into any of that, then they don't have to, or, if the school owner deems it so, they don't have to study at that school, which is all well within their rights, moral or otherwise.

[packard]

wow! I did not expect such a response. so thanks all for your thoughts.

The guy in question is good at what he does. I have been around martial arts for many years and feel that his standard alone is worth the grade.

when I said attitude - I have to say that I actually like the guy. He is just very offish to many people, does not engage in conversation when he walks in to class and does not hang around afterwards. he can be a little heavy handed in sparring, but that is some thing we have all been at some time and learn to control it.

I persoanlly feel that the teacher does not like him because he does not engage with him like so many others. he does not put the teacher on a pedastall like so many others.

It will be interesting if he hangs around or leaves. I do not see him as a grade chaser, but may feel discriminated against as some one else pointed out.

regards,

P

[KC Elbows]

For example, the a-hole with talent does not have to work as hard as the rest to fight: he must condition hard, but the skill is much more quickly his. If his talent is sublime, the length of time he must work is likewise less. The idea that the fire will weed such a person out is weakened by the presence of talent. See Mike Tyson. See OJ Simpson.

I'm trying to think of another hooker analogy to continue MK's fine work, but I lack his knowledge of the field.

[Drake]

I agree with not advancing a student with poor morals. I think that decision is up to the person running the school. I DO think the instructor should make that an obvious requirement, though. One thing I was taught was to respect others, especially those above you. Your physical skill is but one facet of your development as a martial artist.

[tattooedmonk]

People of dubious nature exist in all facets of life.
Regardless of education or morals.

No harm in a teacher thinking twice about teaching someone how to fight, that's not being moral, just responsible.

You get a lot of aholes on sport combat, but you get MORE in TMA and I think that is because of what MK said, aholes don't like getting beat up and don't last long.

That said, we teach aholes how to kill all the time, see the military for example, there is one in every unit.

Apples and Oranges I know, still.

I say again :No harm in a teacher thinking twice about teaching someone how to fight, that's not being moral, just responsible. I agree with most of this.

I think that it is an instructors moral responsibility to decide whether a student should fight or advance in rank.

In my experience I found more @$$holes in MMA schools than TMA schools. Just my experience.I think it varies from school to school and area to area.

[KC Elbows]

Is a mma coach who expects sportsmanlike conduct from his fighters and explicitly states what that conduct is inferior to one who doesn't?

In addition, if it is not possible to learn both fighting and morality, how does one weed out the bad characters from a list of people who choose fighting over morality?:D

[David Jamieson]

packard-

do you not think you may be projecting on your teacher?

does he promote only those who fawn on him or do people still have to work for their supper so to speak? if the former, then the rank is useless anyway and who cares and if the second then i would review that. :)

If someone is being overtly anti-social such as what you have described in the fella being indicated, then that may very well be a cause for concern.

also, it's not about extremes. It is not simply one or the other. There are many things at play when deciding whether someone is going to be part of an organization at a level of recognition that is bearing some status and representative of that org as a whole.

while one may not be in any position to teach morality or ethics, to be in judgement of them relative to your organizations standards for representation is something any of us can do and if it is our school then it is our own prerogative cut and dried and if someone doesn't like that, they can go elsewhere.

I guess that means I agree with the teacher withholding until he is certain for himself if he wants the guy to be put forward as a part of his organization and as a important part.

[tattooedmonk]

Is a mma coach who expects sportsmanlike conduct from his fighters and explicitly states what that conduct is inferior to one who doesn't?

In addition, if it is not possible to learn both fighting and morality, how does one weed out the bad characters from a list of people who choose fighting over morality?:D#1 IMHO Yes. we all have to follow laws , rules and guidelines , that is what makes us different.

#2 Yes, but you can not choose one over the other if you are a professional or looking to be one. Although some do , most do not last and/or are not looked up to or achieve the statis they they could if they did.:D

[KC Elbows]

when I said attitude - I have to say that I actually like the guy. He is just very offish to many people, does not engage in conversation when he walks in to class and does not hang around afterwards. he can be a little heavy handed in sparring, but that is some thing we have all been at some time and learn to control it.

I persoanlly feel that the teacher does not like him because he does not engage with him like so many others. he does not put the teacher on a pedastall like so many others.


This might have more to do with the school's social scene than its philosophy. Back when I trained more, I was the guy you describe above, though I never was stand offish as much as focused and goal oriented. Some schools that are around awhile develop a social scene that can be a bit problematic; given time, it's not insurmountable.

[MasterKiller]

I actually discourage people from being social in class and hanging around after to gab. Show up on time, keep ur mouth shut and work, then get the h3ll out. I have stuff to do...

[KC Elbows]

Show up on time, keep ur mouth shut and work, then get the h3ll out.

If it works for child labor, it works for MK.

You can use that in ads if you like.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Won't work in the porn industry.

[MasterKiller]

I'm not running a social networking club, and I have limited time each week to cover a lot of material. We have fun and joke around, but not at the expense of training. I run a tight ship.

[KC Elbows]

I'm not running a social networking club, and I have limited time each week to cover a lot of material. We have fun and joke around, but not at the expense of training. I run a tight ship.

I didn't actually think you ran a sweat shop disguised as a kids' fourteen hour kung fu daycare.

I'm just saying its an idea.

[tattooedmonk]

I'm not running a social networking club, and I have limited time each week to cover a lot of material. We have fun and joke around, but not at the expense of training. I run a tight ship.I do and feel the same.

[SanHeChuan]

That said, we teach aholes how to kill all the time, see the military for example, there is one in every unit.

Oh they train you to be as$holes too. One in every unit is a gross underestimation. ;)

Holding back a grade for not being social enough is not a good reason
*says the anti-social guy*
Though he may be unsure of the dudes moral character for lack of interaction, still not a good enough reason.

[tattooedmonk]

Oh they train you to be as$holes too. One in every unit is a gross underestimation. ;)

Holding back a grade for not being social enough is not a good reason
*says the anti-social guy*
Though he may be unsure of the dudes moral character for lack of interaction, still not a good enough reason.#1 TRUE THAT.

#2 I do not think him being social is the problem. But his not interacting or his abnormal way of interacting with others makes it hard to determine his moral character.