Lion's Roar: transfer of force

[jdhowland]

I've seen two methods of developing punching power in LR systems: in one, the entire arm remains as relaxed as possible on it's way to the target. Upon impact, the fist and forearm are tightened and then relaxed as soon as possible with no continuous thrusting into the target and no snap back. The energy is simply absorbed into the target and the fist or other anatomical weapon is allowed to bounce back after the strike. My Hop Ga teacher taught us this way.

The second training method involves tightening the fist and forearm as much as possible through the entire movement while trying to relax the rest of the arm. The goal is the same as in the first method: no follow-through thrusting and no snap, just hitting like throwing a piece of dead wood.

Quentin Fong teaches the second method. He used to have us hold stacks of quarters between the handles of those old spring grip exercisers and we would perform sets or stand in single-leg stance for long periods, our hands outstretched to the sides. Eventually there would come the sounds of coins striking and rolling on the floor. Nobody wanted to be the first to start the concert. At other times he would strike our forearms during line-up drills using a flat stick that would bounce a certain way if the muscles were properly tensed.

As a new student I supposed the training was to develop gripping strenth or to protect the wrist. I now think the goal was to teach muscle control, to learn to relax as much as possible during the technique. By training to the point of muscle failure the student has a chance to learn the coordinated use of only those muscles needed for the strike. Fong sifu's simile of external and internal training being like a raw egg and a thousand-year egg applies here. Both training methods are effective. In one, the student learns to relax quickly but struggles to develop the proper tension upon impact. In the other, learning to relax is more difficult but the firmness of the hand is already there.

In both methods the engine that generates the force is the same--the turning of the body and extension of the arm. The methods for learning efficient transfer of force into the target are, at least in the beginning, different.

So, Lion's Roar community, do you use either of these training methods? Or some other approach?

Gentlemen, start your engines.

[diego]

I've seen two methods of developing punching power in LR systems: in one, the entire arm remains as relaxed as possible on it's way to the target. Upon impact, the fist and forearm are tightened and then relaxed as soon as possible with no continuous thrusting into the target and no snap back. The energy is simply absorbed into the target and the fist or other anatomical weapon is allowed to bounce back after the strike. My Hop Ga teacher taught us this way.

The second training method involves tightening the fist and forearm as much as possible through the entire movement while trying to relax the rest of the arm. The goal is the same as in the first method: no follow-through thrusting and no snap, just hitting like throwing a piece of dead wood.

Quentin Fong teaches the second method. He used to have us hold stacks of quarters between the handles of those old spring grip exercisers and we would perform sets or stand in single-leg stance for long periods, our hands outstretched to the sides. Eventually there would come the sounds of coins striking and rolling on the floor. Nobody wanted to be the first to start the concert. At other times he would strike our forearms during line-up drills using a flat stick that would bounce a certain way if the muscles were properly tensed.

As a new student I supposed the training was to develop gripping strenth or to protect the wrist. I now think the goal was to teach muscle control, to learn to relax as much as possible during the technique. By training to the point of muscle failure the student has a chance to learn the coordinated use of only those muscles needed for the strike. Fong sifu's simile of external and internal training being like a raw egg and a thousand-year egg applies here. Both training methods are effective. In one, the student learns to relax quickly but struggles to develop the proper tension upon impact. In the other, learning to relax is more difficult but the firmness of the hand is already there.

In both methods the engine that generates the force is the same--the turning of the body and extension of the arm. The methods for learning efficient transfer of force into the target are, at least in the beginning, different.

So, Lion's Roar community, do you use either of these training methods? Or some other approach?

Gentlemen, start your engines.


When I first learned the form I was taught to relax until impact...penetrate through then coil and repeat. Practising on the wavemaster kickstand bag I found the second method is useful when throwing continous looping full body haymaker type shots...sometimes if I use the first method I won't relax and tense fast enough to link up with my footwork. All that tends to mess the knuckles up. Using the second firm grip (which I think I also figured out from playing with small knives) I find it easier to continously stab through with my strikes...tho with that you can get too aligned so it doesn't hurt...my middle knuckle swelled up something gross doing an hour of chune choi a day on the wavemaster...anyone recommend some good dit da jow?:)

[jdhowland]

When I first learned the form I was taught to relax until impact...penetrate through then coil and repeat. Practising on the wavemaster kickstand bag I found the second method is useful when throwing continous looping full body haymaker type shots...sometimes if I use the first method I won't relax and tense fast enough to link up with my footwork. All that tends to mess the knuckles up. Using the second firm grip (which I think I also figured out from playing with small knives) I find it easier to continously stab through with my strikes...tho with that you can get too aligned so it doesn't hurt...my middle knuckle swelled up something gross doing an hour of chune choi a day on the wavemaster...anyone recommend some good dit da jow?:)

Brings back memories... When i first started on the heavy bag i used to tense up more to protect the elbows. Later i learned to keep the elbow slightly flexed and rotate it up for sao cheui, down for bin cheui, and my techniques became faster. I agree that you need more muscle tone for combo strikes. The thread was meant to address only basic training for single strikes.

[HOKPAIWES]

If you are going to be doing that much bag work I would use bag gloves.

[diego]

Brings back memories... When i first started on the heavy bag i used to tense up more to protect the elbows. Later i learned to keep the elbow slightly flexed and rotate it up for sao cheui, down for bin cheui, and my techniques became faster. I agree that you need more muscle tone for combo strikes. The thread was meant to address only basic training for single strikes.

Very good thread idea by the way:) I gotta chat with my teacher about what he knows about Kaido's power development...what I have figured out about Kaido's version of hop gar which relates to the ideas in this thread is that I beleive he uses both methods.

From what I gather from your post, using the twist of the wrist creates more power, while keeping your wrist pronated is quicker and the more shots creates more pain, like the Thai's use short punches as many as they can to overload your brain with pain for the knock out, while other fighters will go for that Tyson KO to overload your brain.

If I read your post correct... I beleive Kaido uses both methods, in this one technique he shows at a public performance...right leg weighted crane stance (side bow) and left palm to solarplexus with your right hand supinated in tiger claw at your short ribson the right side of your upper torso...switch to left crane and right palm to his face, this time your left hand goes behind you in a pronated position instead of chambering at the ribs supinated ( I'm studying for my fitness theory exam, so I'm happy yall talking about biomechanics in that other thread:) ) and then as he's falling jump into him with a right crane and left upcut to his groin with the right hand gaurding at crown...

kaido seems to have fun with the interplay of short range to long...opening doors to trick him to attack and closing them to fight hard.

[diego]

If you are going to be doing that much bag work I would use bag gloves.

that's the thing, i would hit it until i felt tough...then i would take the gloves off and super condition it:D


my buddy argued iwth me when i was having a temper and i cut his forehead with a right overhead...disfiguring my already swollen middle knuckle:(:rolleyes:

stopped training for two weeks and just let everything heal, now I'm working cardio, training smart.

[cjurakpt]

glad you started a new thread - the other one was about to get real egg-headed, and way OT - so now we can chat at leisure; anyway, when I have a moment, I'll paste the stuff we were talking about over here and comment on it; BTW, never feel a need to qualify anything as being "layman" - intelligent discussion is intelligent discussion, and one doesn't necessarilly need to be a PT (and boy, they can really be an annoying lot sometimes...;) ) to be able to productively discuss neuromuscular physiology (in fact, TBH, a lot of PT's out there wouldn't even be able to discuss it at all, sad to say...)

[htowndragon]

i was taught the first one, but for continuous, the second seems easier, so basically what diego said

[sanjuro_ronin]

Like I mentioned in the other thread, seems fairly "typical" of who most are taught to strike either from the start or eventually.

Some Japanese Karate systems are more tension oriented in the beginning, like shotokan, but even they become ( or are suppose to become) more "relaxed" as you progress.

In boxing you are taught to be relaxed and explode through the target from day one.

How is Lionsroar any different ?

[diego]

Like I mentioned in the other thread, seems fairly "typical" of who most are taught to strike either from the start or eventually.

Some Japanese Karate systems are more tension oriented in the beginning, like shotokan, but even they become ( or are suppose to become) more "relaxed" as you progress.

In boxing you are taught to be relaxed and explode through the target from day one.

How is Lionsroar any different ?

in boxing you are trying to break his chin or punch a hole into the bag like foreman training his hook on the heavybag in when we were kings, LR you tring to put his chin through the back of his skull, or ram him three feet with your stance and give him two feet of pain punching his solar plexus...boxing is like slashing with a knife, a good chune choi is like stabbing with one.

[sanjuro_ronin]

in boxing you are trying to break his chin or punch a hole into the bag like foreman training his hook on the heavybag in when we were kings, LR you tring to put his chin through the back of his skull, or ram him three feet with your stance and give him two feet of pain punching his solar plexus...boxing is like slashing with a knife, a good chune choi is like stabbing with one.

Interesting and while I know that "intent leads technique", physics is physics and biomechanics is biomechanics.
You seem to be describing depth of penetration ie: follow through and yes there would be some difference in that, boxing gloves VS bare hands and all that.

[diego]

Interesting and while I know that "intent leads technique", physics is physics and biomechanics is biomechanics.
You seem to be describing depth of penetration ie: follow through and yes there would be some difference in that, boxing gloves VS bare hands and all that.
yeah the main differance i see with my western boxing punch vs hop gar punch, is more rotation creating greater penetration...but i'm thinking a boxer stance is tighter making it safer to defend against counters...:)

JD my stepdad said Kaido taught the second method in the beginning where you brisk the hand along the side pronated, he also uses the chambering method famous in shaolin tiger claw methods...I have video of one of kaido's students students teaching his students to do the shaolin method for their basic chune choi, but my stepdad was taught the brisk method...

By the time you learn the basics and kaido's first form you have both methods though...

[Steeeve]

Hi Guys

Thats interesting

mostly the two method

I thing its better to be relax and tense at the impact ......thats physical principles ....
from what isaw in hop gar the turning stance is the (like wing chunn) is the power to the punch....the arms is not the power but the used of the waist and footwork do the power in a punch....the arm is just the vehicle(weapon) to transfert the power ..... Whatever the style ....some style used more complex ging(way to give power)...for me I more believe in speed and acceleration for throw a mass with a good root to the ground ...F=Ma square... first newton law

Men hope U understood ...my english is soso

;)

Steeve

[jdhowland]

In boxing you are taught to be relaxed and explode through the target from day one.

How is Lionsroar any different ?

I think the difference is a matter of degree rather than kind. There may be little difference between boxing and Lion Roar traditions, more difference between both of these methods and hard style chinese methods that emphasise the feeling of the arm being connected to the trunk of the body. "Locking in" as some schools call it, doesn't exist in the arts I was taught. On the other end of the scale Okinawa Goju Ryu, a development from southern mainland sources, teaches tsuki while tightening the muscles of the shoulder girdle. I don't know if any TCMA school teaches punching with that degree of tension.

My reason for starting this thread is to explore the changes within the various branches and the relationships to other southern styles. I have simply never come across another tradition that advocates a "ballistic" straight punch with no attempt to power through the technique up to the point of impact (beyond a simple triceps action to extend the arm).

But then, I don't get out much.

My classmates in Hawaii liked to call this (lack of) control of force a "dead hand" technique, and it seems to have better effect at stunning than snapping or drilling punches do. My guess is that we can adapt to pain and to longer impact blows better than we can adapt to this peculiar trauma to the nerves from a force that does not continue to push through once its original inertia has been stopped.

What think you?