Multiple opponent knife fight goes to ground...

[stricker]

i'm sure theres been zillions of discussions of **** like this but i thought i'd put it up as a reminder... this went down a mile or two from where i live... nice university town, quiet, low crime rate. also a stabbing outside my local pub few months ago, a few others around the city over the last few months as well...

here's what the news said went down :

Mr McKnight said he was attacked by three or four men and that Mr Mitchell was in possession of a knife," said DCI Gordon.

The two men fought, with Mr McKnight managing to disarm Mr Mitchell before they both ended up on the ground grappling.

Mr McKnight had by this point sustained severe knife wounds to his hands.

DCI Gordon said: "They were rolling around on the floor - Mr McKnight said he was being strangled. He flailed around and picked up the knife and it is here I believe that Mr Mitchell was stabbed five times."

Mr McKnight ran off and despite his injuries Mr Mitchell started to give chase, only to collapse. He died where he fell.

Mr Mitchell, of Kingsmore Road, Harlow, was pronounced dead in the early hours of June 5 this year. A post-mortem examination revealed he died from a stab wound to the heart. He had also been stabbed three times in the chest and once in the back.

full story :
http://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/news/city/2007/11/16/a5d5fad7-0e20-4493-9f1d-04b823e6fe0c.lpf

1. grappling happened
2. ended up on the floor
3. cuts to hands were non-debilitating
4. could have been a choke going on (are people learning from watching ufc etc?)
5. lethal wound to heart was not instant death - he got up and chased before collapsing and dying
6. was multiple opponents, then not? maybe the others weren't up for what went down, could have been fronting?

stay safe y'all!

[Shaolin Wookie]

Man, British media is so polite. They called everyone "Mister." Stateside, it seems like the media is always about to prefix every name with "Unbelievableratb@stard".

[Knifefighter]

1. grappling happened
More often than not grappling will happen in an edged weapon encounter.


2. ended up on the floor
The person being attacked will often end up on the ground while the person with the weapon continues the attack.


3. cuts to hands were non-debilitating
Some of the most effective methods of disarms involve grabbing the blade of the knife.



4. could have been a choke going on (are people learning from watching ufc etc?)
Losing control of the knife to apply a choke is a very bad idea.



5. lethal wound to heart was not instant death - he got up and chased before collapsing and dying
People can an do sustain a lot of damage from a knife and still survive... much more than most people are aware.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Some of the most effective methods of disarms involve grabbing the blade of the knife.

Reply]
Are you F'n insane? Grab the BLADE?? My God!! MMA has just hit a new delusional low!!

[hskwarrior]

Yeah I Remember A Story Back In The Day When This Woman Was Stabbed A Bunch Of Times, And Ran Over Two Or Three Times And Left For Dead But She Survived All That.

[Knifefighter]

Some of the most effective methods of disarms involve grabbing the blade of the knife.

Reply]
Are you F'n insane? Grab the BLADE?? My God!! MMA has just hit a new delusional low!!

Do a little research on people who have actually done disarms against real life attacks and you will find that most of the time it was done with this method.

If you think about it it makes complete sense. During a knife attack you are almost always going to get cut anyway, often in the hands and arms anyway as part of trying to fend of the blade (studies have shown that most knife killings involve multiple stab wounds to the hands and arms that happen during natural defensive movements). If you are going to get cut, why not be proactive and have it happen in a place (your hands) that is going to do relatively little damage compared to other parts of your body, while giving you the ablity to control the blade and keep from taking damage to more vital areas, such as your neck, eyes and torso.

Not to mention the fact that it is also possible to gain control the blade by grabbing it without getting cut at all.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Do a little research on people who have actually done disarms against real life attacks and you will find that most of the time it was done with this method.

If you think about it it makes complete sense. During a knife attack you are almost always going to get cut anyway, often in the hands and arms anyway as part of trying to fend of the blade (studies have shown that most knife kilings involve multiple stab wounds to the hands and arms that happen during natural defensive movements). If you are going to get cut, why not be proactive and have it happen in a place (your hands) that is going to do relatively little damage compared to other parts of your body, while giving you the ablity to control the blade and keep from taking damage to more vital areas, such as your neck, eyes and torso.

Not to mention the fact that it is also possible to gain control the blade by grabbing it without getting cut at all.

Reply]
That is without question the STUPIDEST thing I have ever heard from you.

[Knifefighter]

That is without question the STUPIDEST thing I have ever heard from you.

What is it that you disagree with?

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Most of it.

[Knifefighter]

Like I said, do a little research.

[stricker]

yeah i was told once that one tactic with a knife was to grab the blade, part of it was that the knifer wouldnt expect it, i guess then the trick is to apply pressure to the blade to minimize getting cut and get two on one...

at the time, i was unsure as it seems a little crazy, but i could also imagine it working. problem as always is thinking or imagining doesnt mean much, not the same as real expericences, or even info from real happenings, hence the post...

[lkfmdc]

I"d rather get my hands cut up and LIVE than try some funky move and end up with a Columbian neck tie

[sihing]

I think Dale is on to something here, at least when he says the chances of getting cut in a unarmed knife defence are very high. I agree, that I rather get cut in the hand than in the arm or body area, as I have a better chance of recovery from a hand cut, and can if lucky enough grab the weapon.

I dont see what he is saying as total hog wash:)

James

[WinterPalm]

I'd rather not grab the knife...not do some funky move, but do something practical simple, and hopefully live.

Just out of curiousity...kung fu guys can't grab arms in their techniques because a real fight is too fast paced and adrenaline fueled, yet you can grab a knife blade??? That is just ridiculous. And I'm no expert, but I imagine that as you grab the blade they will pull, twist, and grind the blade into you...at some point I would imagine the damage would cut tendons or something and your hand wouldn't operate very well.

Do you catch bullets as well?:D

[WinterPalm]

Further, how do you train this? Do you have footage of you doing this against a resisting aggressive attacker with a real knife?:D
How about in a cage?:D

[WinterPalm]

Dale is bang on that you have a very high chance of getting cut. Depending on the situation it could be more or less. If you have an attacker coming at you with sewing machine stabs with a raging fury...a guy holding it threateningly to mug you...or taking a swing out of nowhere with a razor blade.;) Each will produce different responses and different degrees of damage.
Personally, I think wrist control is easier to get and less damaging with probably better control*.


*I have never been in a real knife fight...this is all based on knife sparring and situtational drills with varying degrees of attack.

[Knifefighter]

Personally, I think wrist control is easier to get and less damaging with probably better control*..

Yep... that's part of it. Once you have two on one wrist control you can switch one hand to the blade. Much better than giving the opponent the option of switching the blade to his other hand while you are worried about controlling his wrist.

And, no, you don't try to grab the blade first.

[Knifefighter]

Just out of curiousity...kung fu guys can't grab arms in their techniques because a real fight is too fast paced and adrenaline fueled, yet you can grab a knife blade???

Actually, the more common thing to get is an overwrap. From there you can switch to a kimura or two-on-one and then switch to blade control.

The conondrum is that getting wrist control, which is the set up for the disarm, is very hard to do from an attack, while getting the overwrap isn't that hard. However, switching from the overwrap, which is a very good neutralizing position, to the more effective disarm positions of the two-on-one or Kimura is problematic.

[lkfmdc]

in looking for some newer and fresher approaches to this topic, I bought a DVD package called "RED ZONE".... anyone interested in this subject the price of the DVD is WELL WORTH IT

(thanks to knifefighter who recommended it)

[Knifefighter]

in looking for some newer and fresher approaches to this topic, I bought a DVD package called "RED ZONE".... anyone interested in this subject the price of the DVD is WELL WORTH IT

(thanks to knifefighter who recommended it)

I've been working with one of the guys who worked with Jerry on developing the Red Zone on solving the problems encountered from the overwraps to the disarms.

Have you done any live training yet? If so, what things are working for you and which things are you having more trouble with?

[lkfmdc]

I've been working with one of the guys who worked with Jerry on developing the Red Zone on solving the problems encountered from the overwraps to the disarms.

Have you done any live training yet? If so, what things are working for you and which things are you having more trouble with?

Between running the school, training fighters (both MMA and kickboxing), filming my own stuff (working on a huge project), and doing seminars in all honesty I haven't had as much time as I wanted to play with this. I was even supposed to hook up with a Sayoc Kali guy around here and have yet to actually do it

I fall back on my original training in the sense that we DID focus just on the knife and trying to disarm. Some of it clearly worked, I'm trying to integrate the RED ZONE stuff into what I have. The offside two on one and stomping and sweeping is the stuff I most easily added into my already existing mix

and thanks for the recommendation

[cjurakpt]

filming my own stuff (working on a huge project)

let me guess: it involves a sharpened Phillips screwdriver and an automatic umbrella? (no, no, no, it's nothing depraved...yeesh)

[WinterPalm]

Actually, the more common thing to get is an overwrap. From there you can switch to a kimura or two-on-one and then switch to blade control.

The conondrum is that getting wrist control, which is the set up for the disarm, is very hard to do from an attack, while getting the overwrap isn't that hard. However, switching from the overwrap, which is a very good neutralizing position, to the more effective disarm positions of the two-on-one or Kimura is problematic.

That makes more sense!
We have a common defense that involves a two-on-one grab with what you call a kimura (behind the back, over the shoulder...one or the other), and from there palming the non-sharp side and removing it.
Dealing with the knife is the first and foremost thing. If you don't have control of the knife, chokes and things like that is a bad idea.

[Black Jack II]

RD,

Knife counters in which you proactively grab the blade have been used in Europe for hundreds on hundreds of years. Take a look at some of the 14th to 17th century renaissance combative manuels and you will see this tactic practiced over and over again.

Heck, I think you may even see it in even early medieval woodcut's.

Material like the Redzone and S.T.A.B are excellent and viable knife defense systems for the everyday person who wants a stress based reaction, non-laarping approach to work with.

Based on securing the arm, instinctual oh **** responses off of a default position, they give a nice tactile index point from which to orient yourself in ECQ knife situations.

[rogue]

What's different about Red Zone from other approaches?

BJ, what kind of blades were they grabbing? I've seen both daggers and swords that weren't sharp anywhere but the tip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Id6lHsLaNew&feature=related

[monji112000]

Do a little research on people who have actually done disarms against real life attacks and you will find that most of the time it was done with this method.

If you think about it it makes complete sense. During a knife attack you are almost always going to get cut anyway, often in the hands and arms anyway as part of trying to fend of the blade (studies have shown that most knife killings involve multiple stab wounds to the hands and arms that happen during natural defensive movements). If you are going to get cut, why not be proactive and have it happen in a place (your hands) that is going to do relatively little damage compared to other parts of your body, while giving you the ablity to control the blade and keep from taking damage to more vital areas, such as your neck, eyes and torso.

Not to mention the fact that it is also possible to gain control the blade by grabbing it without getting cut at all.
the scary thing is you make allot of sense. I would personally rather my hand than any other part of my body get cut. ( I have had my hands cut a few times and my back ect.. ). I personally don't like the idea of getting cut.. or fighting some with a knife but if you must I could see how that would make sense.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-306340144244288583
good stuff.

[Black Jack II]

Rogue,

I am not really sure, their were many types of daggers and dirks at that time, and yes I would assume a number of these are the standard style based on the thrust with solid blunt steel near the hilts.

Ancient european hand to hand combatives was very advanced and based on its practical sportive principles for the most part. If it did not work it never made it into one of the codex's which was honestly taken from the real battlefield.

Here is an example of what is called arm-wringing. It is where one would use the hilt of your own knife to grapple in EQC.

http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/SoloT/0038.jpg

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Some of the most effective methods of disarms involve grabbing the blade of the knife.

Reply]
Are you F'n insane? Grab the BLADE?? My God!! MMA has just hit a new delusional low!!


No, he's spot on. Just goes to show, RD, that you know very little if anything about fighting against a knife. I suppose you'd just crescent kick it out of the guys hand, right?

Just poking fun at you, but you should really inquire about something that you are not experienced in, instead of makeing foolish statements. Talk to guys who know about knife fighting. They'll also tell you - 'expect to get cut in every knife encounter.'

Grabbing the blade is an effective strategy, you just aren't aware of the real perils of a knife attack and when it's in your best interest to grab the blade.

Peace

[cjurakpt]

Knife counters in which you proactively grab the blade have been used in Europe for hundreds on hundreds of years. Take a look at some of the 14th to 17th century renaissance combative manuels and you will see this tactic practiced over and over again.

one thing to consider about this is that in a planned duel I'd warrant that there was a pretty high chance that leather gloves were worn, and even in unexpected encounters there was a good chance they would be worn as well if someone was an experienced swordsman...in fact, I wonder how much of the knife stuff was predicated on the assumption that a good leather jerkin was being worn as well...

BTW, talking about old Euro style fighting, I think this just about illustrates the best defense of all...
http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/49.jpg

[Drake]

I prefer to catch the blade between two fingers, bend it in half, and then mock the assailant.

When there's mutiple opponents and knives, I crescent kick them all out of their hands, swing low, pick them up in mid air, and in the same turn throw them back at the assailants...

[Shaolin Wookie]

one thing to consider about this is that in a planned duel I'd warrant that there was a pretty high chance that leather gloves were worn, and even in unexpected encounters there was a good chance they would be worn as well if someone was an experienced swordsman...in fact, I wonder how much of the knife stuff was predicated on the assumption that a good leather jerkin was being worn as well...

BTW, talking about old Euro style fighting, I think this just about illustrates the best defense of all...
http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/49.jpg

LOL....:D:D

[lkfmdc]

a good leather jerkin .... the best defense of all...
http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/49.jpg

I love how you can take stuff out of context and make it funny :D

[cjurakpt]

I love how you can take stuff out of context and make it funny :D

I almost referred to the move as "The Ross", but my fear at the power of your Photo Shop Fu got the better of me...

[Knifefighter]

A little bit of the STAB system:

http://www.youtube.com/swf/l.swf?video_id=8KAT5-OIxvA&eurl=&iurl=http%3A//img.youtube.com/vi/8KAT5-OIxvA/default.jpg&t=OEgsToPDskIs9V0CHfzfL3itNjFmFinq&rel=1&border=0

STAB is a realistic take on knife defense.


As compared to the typical theoretical fantasy-based stuff:
http://www.greencloud.net/2010251.html

[Mr Punch]

Some of the most effective methods of disarms involve grabbing the blade of the knife.

Reply]
Are you F'n insane? Grab the BLADE?? My God!! MMA has just hit a new delusional low!!Hmmm, who to believe...? The Dog Brother, or the video student of a maybe thousand year old kung fu style untested since maybe the boxer rebellion...? Toughie.

KF, I think I know but what's an overwrap? A vid would be helpful if you have one to hand...

[Mr Punch]

Ahh, it's OK, found it. I did know it.

[Knifefighter]

Hmmm, who to believe...? The Dog Brother, or the video student of a maybe thousand year old kung fu style untested since maybe the boxer rebellion...? Toughie.

KF, I think I know but what's an overwrap? A vid would be helpful if you have one to hand...

You see overwraps in MMA all the time when one guy gets the underhooks and the other guy over wraps the arms- kind of like a wh!zzer from the front.

Underhooks are great for non-weapons fighting, but pretty much the opposite of what should happen if a weapon is involved. With weapons, overhooks are the preferred choice. In the clip below, the knife guy gets the overhook (at 1:36 with his left arm) and uses it to control the opponent and finish with cuts. The defender should have done his own overhook on the knife hand, which would have neutralized the blade.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0fPL4f3Eqc

[sanjuro_ronin]

You see overwraps in MMA all the time when one guy gets the underhooks and the other guy over wraps the arms- kind of like a wh!zzer from the front.

Underhooks are great for non-weapons fighting, but pretty much the opposite of what should happen if a weapon is involved. With weapons, overhooks are the preferred choice. In the clip below, the knife guy gets the overhook (at 1:36 with his left arm) and uses it to control the opponent and finish with cuts. The defender should have done his own overhook on the knife hand, which would have neutralized the blade.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0fPL4f3Eqc

One of the bets clips on the net.
If you pay attention, serious attention, to what is being said and done, you will get a better understanding of what it is to deal with a knife in those 6 minutes than most people have in all their years of "knife defenses".

[cjurakpt]

A little bit of the STAB system:

http://www.youtube.com/swf/l.swf?video_id=8KAT5-OIxvA&eurl=&iurl=http%3A//img.youtube.com/vi/8KAT5-OIxvA/default.jpg&t=OEgsToPDskIs9V0CHfzfL3itNjFmFinq&rel=1&border=0

STAB is a realistic take on knife defense.
[/url]

it says video no longer available...

[Black Jack II]

Here is another look at STAB. This one has no description with the exception of a horrible 1950's soundtrack. It's from a Danish group.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEZ6P0S2cas

[Black Jack II]

btw,

That greencloud clip was horrible, but oddly you tend to see the same laarping nowadays in some FMA systems.

Either way, most people that bring up the term knife fighting are laarping, unless you have direct experiance, its all going to be chaos theory.

That is why tactical applications like STAB and Red Zone are so good. It gives you a nice lab to work with.

[Yum Cha]

Do a little research on people who have actually done disarms against real life attacks and you will find that most of the time it was done with this method.

If you think about it it makes complete sense. During a knife attack you are almost always going to get cut anyway, often in the hands and arms anyway as part of trying to fend of the blade (studies have shown that most knife killings involve multiple stab wounds to the hands and arms that happen during natural defensive movements). If you are going to get cut, why not be proactive and have it happen in a place (your hands) that is going to do relatively little damage compared to other parts of your body, while giving you the ablity to control the blade and keep from taking damage to more vital areas, such as your neck, eyes and torso.

I had a special forces dude tell me to take it in the palm and make a fist, than kill with the other hand using own blade, side arm or whatever. Apparently, the tendons in your hand make a good trap for the blade. I mean, life and death, right?


Not to mention the fact that it is also possible to gain control the blade by grabbing it without getting cut at all.

Seen that tried in a controlled situation - grab the blade so tightly that it can't be moved, thus can't cut. Didn't work, many stitches...I reckon its a G.I. legend, kinda like the crates of lost WWII Harley Davidsons, packed in grease, buried in..... (wherever the storyteller was stationed in Europe.)

[Knifefighter]

Seen that tried in a controlled situation - grab the blade so tightly that it can't be moved, thus can't cut. Didn't work, many stitches..)

LOL.

One slight problem, sounds like whoever showed you that forgot the most important part... having control of the wrist with the other hand. Grabbing the blade without controlling the wrist with your other hand will get the sh!t cut out of your hand that is holding the blade.

You can easily test this out in a controlled situation of your own. Have somebody you trust hold a knife. Tell him not to move while you grab his wrist with one hand and the blade with your other hand. Once you have good grips, have him start to pull his hand back and forth slowly, gradually giving you more and more movement. You will see that you won't get cut.

[Yum Cha]

LOL.

One slight problem, sounds like whoever showed you that forgot the most important part... having control of the wrist with the other hand. Grabbing the blade without controlling the wrist with your other hand will get the sh!t cut out of your hand that is holding the blade.

You can easily test this out in a controlled situation of your own. Have somebody you trust hold a knife. Tell him not to move while you grab his wrist with one hand and the blade with your other hand. Once you have good grips, have him start to pull his hand back and forth slowly, gradually giving you more and more movement. You will see that you won't get cut.

You know, that makes sense.

In the incident to which I refer, the local bad-a$$ was sprouting off and out came his buck hunter (the knife that made Charles Manson famous), and full of macho bravado, he volunteered to demonstrate. Wrapped his hand around the blade, got a good grip and gave it to the nay-sayer and said, "Here, try to pull it out." and offered the handle. The guy pulled it out pretty easy, and the blood began to drip out of his fist pretty quickly. At which point the guy says, "I got to go."
And go he did, off to the Emergency room....:D:D:D

And yes, he was a total loser, but a giant MF, and yes, he deserved it and than some... He handed out a few un-due beatings back in the day, and it was sweet karma.

[rogue]

I've been working with one of the guys who worked with Jerry on developing the Red Zone on solving the problems encountered from the overwraps to the disarms.

Have you done any live training yet? If so, what things are working for you and which things are you having more trouble with?

Checked out Red Zone over the holiday. Some very good information and I like where Jerry is going with the techniques and training but he should have held off on the videos until he did more testing and getting things together. Good effort but IMO it just needs more work with a good editor before it's ready for prime time. I did like the pressure they used and the section on the problem with "equalizers".

Some minor crap, I think he made a mistake referring to objects in the environment as "obstacles" and his crew really didn't use them to their advantage. And he didn't really convey that a guy coming at you with a knife really, really, really wants to do you harm, but that's normal for almost any video on the subject and just a pet peeve of mine.

Trying some of it out this weekend I found going in with a block/parry/cover & a good strike worked better for me than just trying to grab the arm cold. I couldn't make the RZ stuff work without that initial disruption. (Edit) Thinking about it this may have had more to do with the kind of attack being used than a problem with the RZ technique

Also one of the guys I worked out with had trouble moving from the baseball bat grip once he got it locked on but that may be more a training issue for him than a problem with the technique.