Lama Sup Ji

[fu kok]

I think this was at the wong fei hung tournament

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkz1tFW68N0

[cjurakpt]

not bad; interesting to see how some of the moves have evolved over time...

[LiMingHe1970]

I have got confused maybe but you said you are not his student so why is every post you have just to sell this one school

[fu kok]

I have got confused maybe but you said you are not his student so why is every post you have just to sell this one school

I don't have to be a student to be a fan. When you go to a lot of tournaments you make a few friends. I guess you can hold me guilty for trying to promote a friends school so what of it. I do CLF and White Crane and our Sifu's are friends.

If you haven't noticed this is the southern forum where people post vids of them selves or friends from other schools all the time.

[CLFNole]

What lineage is your CLF from?

[fu kok]

hskwarrior
WARRIOR NATION! Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: San Francisco, Cali
Posts: 3,355

Green Cloud CLF Applications

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

nice work gus.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8b3yARd6qU


Case in point this is an example Sifu Frank starting a thread to plug a friends Vid.

[fu kok]

What lineage is your CLF from?

I'm pretty new at ths stuff but my Sifu's lineage is Chan Family, we only have a few forms that we do from CLF. My school mostly focuses on Lion Dancing.

[fu kok]

here is another form

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z83_lnSogQU

[Lama Pai Sifu]

WOW!

I am sad to see how much the form has changed in 20 years, since it was first taught.

The performer is a good athlete and makes a good showing however.

Unfortunatly, that is VERY different from how the style, the forms and the techniques are really played.

I made an instructional video of this form back in 94. Here is the clip so that there is no confusion about Chan Tai-San's Lama style and how it should be done. Even though the tape was not done at full/performace speed, it is clear how the form should be played and the energy of the style.

Lama Pai Sahp Jih Kyuhn (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k70oYalGaHc)

The performer in the clip does a lot of jumping, I assume as a method to generate power. This is not how it is done in the Lama style. You will also notice that many of the techniques have been changed; albeit some slightly but some COMPLETLY.

Sifu David Ross was actually the original person to learn this form back in 1987 I believe. The following year he taught it to me. Students of Chan Tai-San frequently exchanged forms, patterns and combinations with each other. I have the original tapes of David learning it in the Duk Chan in Chinatown, NY. I'm sure David will also attest to the fact that this forms is waaay away from the original version or how the style is supposed to be done.

It is unfortunate when forms or styles 'devolve' over such a short period of time (1 generation).

I will also be putting out some new Lama clips as well. Not intending to hijack this thread, but it's hard for me to just sit back and watch a style that myself and my classmates work so hard on,...being butchered, for lack of a better word. No, on second thought; 'butchered' is a pretty accurate description.

Sidebar; NOWHERE did I mention the teacher of the performer, make reference to his name or imply or infer anything about him. I am only commenting on what I am watching here. So this has nothing to do with any flame-war, just me calling it like it is as an authority on the style.

[sanjuro_ronin]

WOW!

I am sad to see how much the form has changed in 20 years, since it was first taught.

The performer is a good athlete and makes a good showing however.

Unfortunatly, that is VERY different from how the style, the forms and the techniques are really played.

I made an instructional video of this form back in 94. Here is the clip so that there is no confusion about Chan Tai-San's Lama style and how it should be done. Even though the tape was not done at full/performace speed, it is clear how the form should be played and the energy of the style.

Lama Pai Sahp Jih Kyuhn (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k70oYalGaHc)

The performer in the clip does a lot of jumping, I assume as a method to generate power. This is not how it is done in the Lama style. You will also notice that many of the techniques have been changed; albeit some slightly but some COMPLETLY.

It is unfortunate when forms or styles 'devolve' over such a short period of time (1 generation).

I will also be putting out some new Lama clips as well. Not intending to hijack this thread, but it's hard for me to just sit back and watch a style that myself and my classmates work so hard on,...being butchered, for lack of a better word.

It has become very "popular" over the last 15 years, perhaps more so, to modify the forms to make them "better for competition", I recall one of the last competitions I was at I so people doing kicks in Seiunchin and even the splits in Sanchin !!
I cried a tear for the death of forms that day.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

I'm pretty new at ths stuff but my Sifu's lineage is Chan Family, we only have a few forms that we do from CLF. My school mostly focuses on Lion Dancing.

Fu kok, does your school do poison snake? Seven Star?

[Lama Pai Sifu]

It has become very "popular" over the last 15 years, perhaps more so, to modify the forms to make them "better for competition", I recall one of the last competitions I was at I so people doing kicks in Seiunchin and even the splits in Sanchin !!
I cried a tear for the death of forms that day.

Making a form a little 'showy' for a tournament - I can understand. That is not what we are talking about here. Adding some sounds, snappy headmovement, pauses - I can understand (not that it was done here).

Changing the way the techniques are done so that they barely or no longer represent the original technique - that is what I mean. You don't have to change a technique for a tournament.

This form wasn't augmented for a tournament. It is the way it is being taught.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Making a form a little 'showy' for a tournament - I can understand. That is not what we are talking about here. Adding some sounds, snappy headmovement, pauses - I can understand (not that it was done here).

Changing the way the techniques are done so that they barely or no longer represent the original technique - that is what I mean. You don't have to change a technique for a tournament.

This form wasn't augmented for a tournament. It is the way it is being taught.

You guys in the TCMA community get a lot of that from what I gather, too much "inner circle/closed door" stuff and people wanting the "real" *insert tcma here*.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Or, as it happens, a great deal of pratitioners all over the country, learning a little bit of a style and then teaching it. You can see clips of people all over the world on youtube and see how many styles have devolved.

Not everyone is a good martial artist.

Not everyone can grasp a teachers teachings.

Not everyone puts their required time in to become good.

Not everyone is smart - (yes, you need some intelligence to get it)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Or, as it happens, a great deal of pratitioners all over the country, learning a little bit of a style and then teaching it. You can see clips of people all over the world on youtube and see how many styles have devolved.

Not everyone is a good martial artist.

Not everyone can grasp a teachers teachings.

Not everyone puts their required time in to become good.

Not everyone is smart - (yes, you need some intelligence to get it)

Quite correct, I know a fellow that is such an example, though he trained a certain TCMA for close to 15 years, he thought he had learned what the system had to offer, fact is, he didn't, but what does it say about a system and a teacher that, after 15 years someone is that "ignorant" of his own system ?

[lkfmdc]

CTS had certain people "specialize" in certain styles.... on the Lama Pai end, Steve Ventura, Stephen Innocenzi and I were the people who did the most Lama Pai. Mike did quite a lot, but his primary course of study, his "major" if you will, was CLF.

I learned Sahp Jih Kyuhn first... actually, my friend Craig Staub learned it with me and is in the video Mike mentioned (Craig is a dear friend who died on 9/11)

Simply put, the form as done is WRONG. Not only is it played wrong (it is played like CLF, not like Lama), the movements are wrong. This set is supposed to begin with the classic "white crane cuts" or Pek Jong combinations. They are 100% absent. At one point a step is made in the wrong direction. If need be, I have myself doing the set on video somewhere and we can digitize it and post it....

As for the staff form, all the twirls are not part of the original set, many of the techniques are being done in the wrong direction. I know this because this is a set Steve Ventura and I learned ALONE, then shared with the hing-dai....

Sad to see this stuff passed off as CTS material, since it is NOT

[sanjuro_ronin]

CTS had certain people "specialize" in certain styles.... on the Lama Pai end, Steve Ventura, Stephen Innocenzi and I were the people who did the most Lama Pai. Mike did quite a lot, but his primary course of study, his "major" if you will, was CLF.

I learned Sahp Jih Kyuhn first... actually, my friend Craig Staub learned it with me and is in the video Mike mentioned (Craig is a dear friend who died on 9/11)

Simply put, the form as done is WRONG. Not only is it played wrong (it is played like CLF, not like Lama), the movements are wrong. This set is supposed to begin with the classic "white crane cuts" or Pek Jong combinations. They are 100% absent. At one point a step is made in the wrong direction. If need be, I have myself doing the set on video somewhere and we can digitize it and post it....

As for the staff form, all the twirls are not part of the original set, many of the techniques are being done in the wrong direction. I know this because this is a set Steve Ventura and I learned ALONE, then shared with the hing-dai....

Sad to see this stuff passed off as CTS material, since it is NOT

And for those that don't know any better, without the guidence of those that do, they would be none the wiser.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

It's a shame, isn't it?

[sanjuro_ronin]

It's a shame, isn't it?

More than words can say,
See, what you are doing by putting out your stuff, is showing the world what the right way is and how it is done, the light makes everything clear and hides nothing.
The more the public sees, the ore educated they are, the better to deal with the crap that can be passed off as "legit" or even "good".

Props again to you Michael.

[SIFU RON]

yes it is a shame, especially to the ones that learned the original style or styles.

One begins to wonder, what will it turn into a few years up the road.

Keep the faith.

[Green Cloud]

Ok guys this is like the story the kings new clothes, if you look at lama sifu form from 1992 and my student's form it's exactly the same exept for the fact that my student won first place doing that form and I would like to note that one of the judges was Sifu Wong one of the most respected Jow Ga Sifu's in the country. This is about skill nothing else please post one of your students doing something.:rolleyes: And oh yea with out Cut Take two that's a wrap

[Lama Pai Sifu]

yes it is a shame, especially to the ones that learned the original style or styles.

One begins to wonder, what will it turn into a few years up the road.

Keep the faith.

It's quite frightening actually.

[lkfmdc]

if you look at lama sifu form from 1992 and my student's form it's exactly the same exept for the fact that .....



many of the techniques are different
the footwork is different
they step in different directions
the "jing" is different
other than that, exactly the same :rolleyes:

[sanjuro_ronin]

Ok guys this is like the story the kings new clothes, if you look at lama sifu form from 1992 and my student's form it's exactly the same exept for the fact that my student won first place doing that form and I would like to note that one of the judges was Sifu Wong one of the most respected Jow Ga Sifu's in the country. This is about skill nothing else please post one of your students doing something.:rolleyes: And oh yea with out Cut Take two that's a wrap

Form the outside looking in, it seems that the angles were different, some of the power delivery was different, the foot wrok in some parts was different and the "applications" were not the same.
But this is from the outside looking in, I don't know anything about Lama forms so...

[Green Cloud]

many of the techniques are different
the footwork is different
they step in different directions
the "jing" is different
other than that, exactly the same :rolleyes:

something we can agree on we are different :cool:

[lkfmdc]

something we can agree on we are different :cool:

Why dodge the obvious, the forms are NOT the same, much less "exactly"?

The original form begins with "sek lihn jih", ngau mah pek, seung mah jong

Your student did faan sae ping che sau so

Those aren't the same movements, or don't you realize that?

[Green Cloud]

Why dodge the obvious, the forms are NOT the same, much less "exactly"?

The original form begins with "sek lihn jih", ngau mah pek, seung mah jong

Your student did faan sae ping che sau so

Those aren't the same movements, or don't you realize that?

Did ya ever think that someone who is performing the form in a tournament might be playing the form differently than they normaly would. Or how about maybe there not master sifu's like you guys are and they might not have played the form correctly.

Once again I will agree that when it comes to forms we play it differently.

[lkfmdc]

Did ya ever think that someone who is performing the form in a tournament might be playing the form differently than they normaly would.



if he did something "fancy" or did a cartwheel or something impressive, that would be a logical conclusion

but, for the sake of a tournament would you do a technique WRONG?

I'll get back to the "sek lihn jih" in a minute... but let's talk about the fact that after the Chyuhn Choih, the pak yik is in the wrong direction and there is no seung gok prior

The basic application, as taught to us by Master Chan Tai San, was that your opponent would use the "Neih Lahk" technique against the chyuhn choih, requiring you to use che yu to avoid the counter strike, the seung gok then traps the arm and the pak yik is thus open, ie you open the third gate

as a master of Chan Tai San's kung fu, I'm sure you know exactly what I am talking about, right?

So why does your student just Chyuhn Choih and then JUST pak yik in the SAME PLACE?

It doesn't improve the performance of the set in any way, and it clearly strips the form of an important combat application?

[Green Cloud]

Yes Dave now that I looked at it again your right, he does make a few mistakes and he does go into a right pak yik first instead of going to the left first after that he fails to stretch out his left hand and also the beginning is wrong he fails to open the book and what not, but in the students defense he was trying out the form for the first time in copetition and that is why there are some flaws. As you already know Lama is very hard to perform and it's not the sexiest looking style.

Over all I'd give the young lad an A+ for effort, that being said I will be executing him at dawn:p

[lkfmdc]

I've said it before, more than a few times, all of your students look like the work hard and love kung fu......

I'm just wondering why the form is so different?

Going back to the "sek lihn jih", considering the historical significance of these movements, why did you change it?

According to legend (of course we can't say 100% if it's true), Sahp Jih is Wong Lam Hoi's form so the "sek lihn jih" is Wong Lam Hoi's famous "gam gaau jih sau". Removing it would be like removing the "lihn waan saam paau" that was characteristic of Wong Yan Lam from Sahp Jih Kau Da, don't you think?

[hskwarrior]

thats nice:D

cordial conversings amongst classmates!!!!!!!

GROUP HUG........

nah, don't phucking touch me..........it ain't that type of party!!!!!!!!:mad:

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Did ya ever think that someone who is performing the form in a tournament might be playing the form differently than they normaly would. Or how about maybe there not master sifu's like you guys are and they might not have played the form correctly.

Once again I will agree that when it comes to forms we play it differently.

I can understand if a student cannot perform at the level of an Instructor. I think your student is a good athlete.

Dave's points are quite valid though. Why not stick to teaching forms that you have expertise in, instead of teaching this set. You know, Dave, Steven(s) Chris and myself all seem to perform/teach/execute techniques from this style with a certain percent of consistancy. 90+%. I think everyone will have their own way of doing things and that is what makes them unique. A certain percentage of variation/difference is reasonable and perhaps expected. This form however, is being taught in a different manner than it was taught to you. I should know because as a matter of fact, you either learned it from me or someone that I taught.

What gets me, and my major gripe with you is that you never try to improve your kung-fu. When you trained with our teacher, you had some past experience. When he would teach you things, you never could seem to 'empty your cup' and instead you tried to interpret what he showed you and fit it into the moves you already knew. "Oh, it's just like this, or it's just like that..." Unfortunatly, sometimes that put you at a disadvantage.

I don't hate you. I did lose most of whatever respect I had for you last year with the fiasco on this forum. You personally attacked me on this forum, repeating heresay and spreading lies about my business and my character. You immediatly acted in a different manner off the forum (via phone) and when you got back on the forum, you went back to posturing like a tough guy.

You know, if you asked any of us for information or advice about our teacher's Kung-Fu, it would have been available for you. As we all know, you worked out of town quite a bit and didn't have the same opportunity to train with him as most of us did. Nothing wrong with that, no one holds that against you.

But here is the real and honest deal; When you first came on this forum, I can honestly say that Dave, Chris and Myself were happy about it. However...you quickly started criticizing people for the lineage, the chinese prononciation and their knowledge styles. You made some outrageous claims about our teacher and printed many untruths and incorrect facts. You were sent PM's (by us) when you were arguing with people where you were clearly wrong. We did this to help you, not CONTROL you as you replied back. You PM'd me like a 5 year old kid and said to me "don't tell me what to say; I can say whatever I want". We were only trying to help you and ourselves, to NOT look bad.

As far as your student's form, it's not the worst interpretation of the Lama style I've ever seen. But the jumping and no waist power is just flat out wrong. That is NOT the way the style is done. Lots of styles use Kahp. But it's the WAY that Lama does it that makes it different. You are just teaching the moves here, without the intent/power or true application. Not to mention the movements that are left out or glanced over. It is clear that the performer does not have the proper intent with many of the techniques and as he is one of your most senior guys, I would assume that should have the right idea when it comes to application.

Two years ago, we were at the same tournament together. Our students competed in the adult advanced division. Your student came up to me and was intrigued by the differences in the way my students played the same hand forms in which he knew. When he asked me about it, I told him to talk to you first. I said I would show him but he'd have to ask you.

<personal note: You have them doing SIU KAU DA and LOHAN BAAI FAHT with jumping and skipping. SIU KAU DA is being done by your people as a giant exaggerated movement. It is NOT correct. If that's the way YOU want to do it, you should tell your students that these are YOUR changes and that our Sifu did NOT do it this way. I even remember us arguing about it and Sifu clearly said NO JUMPING. You walked away and said that you were going to do it any way you liked. Do you remember that? It was in Mineola.>

AND, if you are teaching Siu Sahp Jih, Chaat Sing Kyuhn or Liin Waahn Kyuhn (ALL CLF) remember - I LEARNED THEM. I taught them to you. I say this so that there is no misunderstanding about my criticism. I'm not talking out of my a$$ when I say this.

I'm not saying mean stuff to you, nor am I making fun of you in any way. I'm not being disresectful either. I'm pointing out facts to you and stating my opinions as well.

Most of us spent a long time learning from Sifu and put in our dues. We learned a new language, put up with all his craziness, deal with these ridiculous organizations, etc. We take what we learned and teach, very seriously. When you don't give it 100% and you start changing stuff left and right, we all get miffed.

Oh, and when you attack and challenge your own classmates, or talk bad about them.....no one likes that very much either.

So there it is, it's out there. I'm not starting any flame-war here, if anything I think I might have doused it a bit.

And for the record; I've not said a dissrespectful word about you or called you any names or made fun of you. If you don't want to respond to this, that is fine. I just want to tell you how we all feel (along with myself obviously). Do with it what you will.

Peace.

[hskwarrior]

hey does this have a pause button?

POPCORN...........POPCORN............:eek:will someone get me some god ****n popcorn?

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Yes Dave now that I looked at it again your right, he does make a few mistakes and he does go into a right pak yik first instead of going to the left first after that he fails to stretch out his left hand and also the beginning is wrong he fails to open the book and what not, but in the students defense he was trying out the form for the first time in copetition and that is why there are some flaws. As you already know Lama is very hard to perform and it's not the sexiest looking style.

Over all I'd give the young lad an A+ for effort, that being said I will be executing him at dawn:p

Are you saying that he just learned this set? I believe that he has done a Lama form in a tourny before. I think I have the tape. Plus, didn't you tell me personally (two years ago) that he has been training with you for 9 years? Why is there always an excuse?

[perpetualstudnt]

ok ok ok guys.... I am the student who performed the apparently horrible "Lama Sup Ji" at the wong fei hung tournament. I apologize for any mistakes I may have made, but as my sifu stated, it was my first time doing this form in a tournament. This tournament was in 2006 I believe, and I was training about 5 1/2 years at the time, so I apologize for not having become a "Lama Pai master" yet. I'm working on it. I would absolutely love to see some footage of this form done "correctly" and continuously from beginning to end so maybe one day I can learn how to "play this form correctly." Any and all "constructive" criticism is appreciated. Notice I said "contructive," if you have any criticisms that might aid me in doing this form better, I'm open minded. But I do not think it's fair to show someone doing this form in 10 different segments, because I'm sure I could do this form without mistake if I wasn't concerned about finishing the form within a time limit, while trying to make it look powerful, intense, and crisp. Not to mention at this point in the tournament I had already fought 3 times, done my broadsword set, and my staff set. So fatigue is also a factor. I'm sure you'll agree, Lama Pai is a tough style to play, certainly by a novice like myself.

[Green Cloud]

hey does this have a pause button?

POPCORN...........POPCORN............:eek:will someone get me some god ****n popcorn?

Yea right just as I was going to answere Dave's question wow, but If we could cease fire for a second I agree with alot of what Mike sais, but on the other hand I feel that it's ok to have a difference of opinion as long it's not shoved down your throat.

As far as for my behaviour last year there is no exuse I went to far and said some thing I should't and as I have stated before I was in a bad place. I've actualy let it go as far as being different I'l always have my own opinion not to say that I hate these guys at all.

I have let it go at least for Sifu's sake and believe or not I have always given Dave and Mike Kudos in many areas.

[lkfmdc]

straw men are not necessary




I've said it before, more than a few times, all of your students look like the work hard and love kung fu......



Neither Mike nor I attacked you in any way... our comments were substantive to the content of the form and how it was played in the sense of "jing" etc

Particularly RE my posts, did you change to technique sequences or were they the way you were taught? IE did you learn the "sek lihn jih" and change it to che sau so .... etc

[perpetualstudnt]

oh, and for the record, I began training October 10, 2000. Trust me, I know the date better than I know most of my families' birthdays.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

ok ok ok guys.... I am the student who performed the apparently horrible "Lama Sup Ji" at the wong fei hung tournament. I apologize for any mistakes I may have made, but as my sifu stated, it was my first time doing this form in a tournament. This tournament was in 2006 I believe, and I was training about 5 1/2 years at the time, so I apologize for not having become a "Lama Pai master" yet. I'm working on it. I would absolutely love to see some footage of this form done "correctly" and continuously from beginning to end so maybe one day I can learn how to "play this form correctly." Any and all "constructive" criticism is appreciated. Notice I said "contructive," if you have any criticisms that might aid me in doing this form better, I'm open minded. But I do not think it's fair to show someone doing this form in 10 different segments, because I'm sure I could do this form without mistake if I wasn't concerned about finishing the form within a time limit, while trying to make it look powerful, intense, and crisp. Not to mention at this point in the tournament I had already fought 3 times, done my broadsword set, and my staff set. So fatigue is also a factor. I'm sure you'll agree, Lama Pai is a tough style to play, certainly by a novice like myself.

WOW. Why do both you and your sifu continue to refer to my clip of the same form? It was from an instructional video tape done back in 1994. What is your point? Are you and he, trying to say that I could not make the form look good if I didn't break it into sections? WTF? IT'S FROM AN INSTRUCTIONAL TAPE. Wether I did 10 moves in a row or 60, it doesn't change them from being right or wrong.

How is it not FAIR? Are we in some sort of competition that I'm not aware of? What are you talking about?? And it's not 10 segments, it's 6, roughly 10 moves per segment. And I only posted 4 segments I believe. Even so, what's the difference? Moves are moves. 1st move 60th move, all the same. Right or wrong - that is what matters.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

oh, and for the record, I began training October 10, 2000. Trust me, I know the date better than I know most of my families' birthdays.

I stand corrected. I must have you confused with another of your teacher's students.

[Green Cloud]

If we can keep the cease fire I also have good news about Innocenzi, he and his wife had a baby boy on thanks giving so I think congratulations are in order.

Other than that I can agree on one thing lets keep the personal issues off line Mike, Dave just call me it's cool:)

I guess with the holidays approaching and the news of Innos baby I'm feeling meloncoly.

Ok group hug everybody, we got bigger fish to fry like those crazy aussies;)

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Yea right just as I was going to answere Dave's question wow, but If we could cease fire for a second I agree with alot of what Mike sais, but on the other hand I feel that it's ok to have a difference of opinion as long it's not shoved down your throat.

As far as for my behaviour last year there is no exuse I went to far and said some thing I should't and as I have stated before I was in a bad place. I've actualy let it go as far as being different I'l always have my own opinion not to say that I hate these guys at all.

I have let it go at least for Sifu's sake and believe or not I have always given Dave and Mike Kudos in many areas.

I am glad to see that YOU let it go. YOU are not the one that was being slammed with lies. That being said, I'm hoping that this discussion will not get out of hand and you will not start with the little 'digs' or backhanded compliments which you have done in the past.

[perpetualstudnt]

would it be possible for you to post the rest of that form? the part immediately following that is a part that I have trouble playing properly and I wouldn't mind seeing how you do it. That is, if you don't mind. I'm not here for drama, as my name states, I just want to learn.

[lkfmdc]

As far as I can see, and please point to a specific if you disagree, I haven't attacked anyone personally here. All of my comments were in regards to technique, theory and application....

[Lama Pai Sifu]

would it be possible for you to post the rest of that form? the part immediately following that is a part that I have trouble playing properly and I wouldn't mind seeing how you do it. That is, if you don't mind. I'm not here for drama, as my name states, I just want to learn.

Yes, I will post the rest of it some time today. I didn't really want to put the whole thing up, but for the benefit of yourself and this discussion, I will.

[lkfmdc]

would it be possible for you to post the rest of that form? the part immediately following that is a part that I have trouble playing properly and I wouldn't mind seeing how you do it. That is, if you don't mind. I'm not here for drama, as my name states, I just want to learn.

I have video somewhere of me doing the set at pretty much full speed. Noran Malouf filmed it. It was around a year after I learned it, at full speed it is NOT perfect, but the content is certainly there... if I can figure out how to post it, Mike?

[yaoli]

this is like a chinese soap opera :D

perpetualstudnt: Chan Tai San is your grandmaster i believe so you give honor to his name in your efforts. continue to work hard. you have much talent in your peformance.

brothers of grandmaster chan tai san should not fight each other.

"Xiong di xi yu qiang, wai yu qi wu."

"brothers quarreling at home join forces against outside attacks. Internal strife disappears in the face of external threat


good day

[perpetualstudnt]

Thank you yaoli. I will never stop working hard, it's all I have. I didn't come into the martial arts with any kind of talent. In fact, I was overweight, , very weak, and had no self-confidence. This is only the beginning for me, there is definately more to come. I just hope I can do my ancestors proud. :)

[yaoli]

Thank you yaoli. I will never stop working hard, it's all I have. I didn't come into the martial arts with any kind of talent. In fact, I was overweight, , very weak, and had no self-confidence. This is only the beginning for me, there is definately more to come. I just hope I can do my ancestors proud. :)

very good! "xing dong sheng yu kong tan"

"ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS";)

[CLFLPstudent]

. I apologize for any mistakes I may have made, but as my sifu stated, it was my first time doing this form in a tournament. This tournament was in 2006 I believe, and I was training about 5 1/2 years at the time, so I apologize for not having become a "Lama Pai master" yet

Are you sure it was 2006? I did the Sahp Jih at Wong's in '06 ( thank God I don't have it on videotape :rolleyes:). I don't remember anyone else doing Lama there. All of my training brothers did CLF, and all of your guys ( that I saw ) did CLF.

Not that it really matters anyway.....

-David

[hskwarrior]

brothers of grandmaster chan tai san should not fight each other.



they should have one big arse orgy though.......n i'm comin too.

[djcaldwell]

Are you sure it was 2006? I did the Sahp Jih at Wong's in '06 ( thank God I don't have it on videotape :rolleyes:). I don't remember anyone else doing Lama there. All of my training brothers did CLF, and all of your guys ( that I saw ) did CLF.

Not that it really matters anyway.....

-David

No the video that no one wants to see was from several years ago my trying to do Siu Sup Ji like 3 months after I learned it, nervous at performing and you could see my brain oozing out of my ear!!!

I still have the DVD of you guys at Wong's - w/ you, Si-Hing and the guys. I'll have to copy it and send it to you. PM me your address if you want it or just ask Parrella he made the copy for me.

[sanjuro_ronin]

brothers of grandmaster chan tai san should not fight each other.



they should have one big arse orgy though.......n i'm comin too.

Orgies? ala Caligula ??

Dude...

[hskwarrior]

:mad: How the phuck did you get a pic of my wife!!!!!!!!


But she's fine ain't she?

i bought that outfit for her on our 50th anniversary.

[sanjuro_ronin]

:mad: How the phuck did you get a pic of my wife!!!!!!!!


But she's fine ain't she?

i bought that outfit for her on our 50th anniversary.

I didn;t know you lived in L.A. ( La-La land) :D

[hskwarrior]

well i do!!!!!!!

NOW WHAT?

Hey, i lay my head and wake it up in la la land dude.........

then i hit the bong for a good morning bong rip ;) and re-enter la-la land.


LMAO!

[perpetualstudnt]

yeah, I'm absolutely positive. But it wasn't wong 06, it was wong fei hung 06. I wasn't sure if you were abbreviateing wong fei hung or thinking of Sifu Wong's tournament in Washington D.C. I'm sure because I had that written on the DVD that I recorded it onto.

[CLFLPstudent]

Ah - that would make sense then. I thought you meant Wong's ( Baltimore). No worries, like I said it really doesn't matter :cool:


-David

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Here is the comlete form. It's considered a basic level form and has some good stuff in it. As you can see, it was done in 1994 and was not supposed to be a performance, but instructional. The only time I performed the whole form is during a tournament that Dave Ross and I went to in 1988. Unfortunatly, we never taped it. :(

Segments were weaved together so that you can see the whole form.

Watching it today, I can see a ton of little mistakes and nuances that I'm sure I couldn't see 13/14 years ago.

I hope this helps out perpetualstudnt and anyone else that has questions regarding it.

Hopefully, it will be enjoyed.

Lama Pai - Sahp Jih Kyuhn (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuZbeN_8vKc)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Here is the comlete form. It's considered a basic level form and has some good stuff in it. As you can see, it was done in 1994 and was not supposed to be a performance, but instructional. The only time I performed the whole form is during a tournament that Dave Ross and I went to in 1988. Unfortunatly, we never taped it. :(

Segments were weaved together so that you can see the whole form.

Watching it today, I can see a ton of little mistakes and nuances that I'm sure I couldn't see 13/14 years ago.

I hope this helps out perpetualstudnt and anyone else that has questions regarding it.

Hopefully, it will be enjoyed.

Lama Pai - Sahp Jih Kyuhn (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuZbeN_8vKc)

Nice, I am surpised it is so "short"...Just assumes it would be longer, but like you said, its a basic form.
Good work, though your chi wasn't flowing as well as it should have been.

[lkfmdc]

According to legend.... you have to preface this because this stuff can't be proven

According to legend, when Sing Lung brough Lion's Roar to southern China around 1850 the system had 4 hand sets

Siu Lo Han Kyuhn
Dai Lo Han Kyuhn
Gam Gong Kyuhn
Dou Lo Kyuhn

It is said that ALL of the "pure" sets around today are splinters/reformations/imitations of these original sets

Dai Gam Gong and Siu Gam Gong are supposed to be split up from a longer Gam Gong Kyuhn (or reformations that together include what was in the original Gam Gong Kyuhn)

Tibetan White Crane "Chut Yip Bouh" is supposed to come from Siu Lo Han (if you compare the opennings, this may very well be true!)

The "pure" (Jing Jong) sets are all very long... for this reason, again according to legend, basic sets were created... supposedly mixed with some Shaolin (Choy Lay Fut) to make them easier for those who had studied Shaolin before to learn

Sahp Jih Kyuhn is supposed to be Wong Lam Hoi's version of the basic set

Sahp Jih Kau Da Kyuhn is supposed to be Wong Yan Lam's version of the basic set

Both are around 60 something moves... because they are designed to be introductory sets

[Steeeve]

Definitively the Green gloud and Michael form are two different forms...
Maybe thats will be better if when we change a forms to change the name also or let it know we change a form for competition....to have integrity.....


I will go for Michael one very good....

.In Lama pai do you strike the Chyun Choi with the middle knuckle? the formation of the fist is with the thumbs sit on the finger ...I mean not like a boxer fist or other style? Does the pau choi (long arm uppercut is done with the back fist or with the side thumb of the fist?

Steeve

[lkfmdc]

Does the pau choi (long arm uppercut is done with the back fist or with the side thumb of the fist?



Paau Choih is done with a vertical fist
when the palm faces the floor and the fist rises to strike with the back knuckles we all it Pak Yik Paau (Pak Yik Po in Toi San dialect)

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Definitively the Green gloud and Michael form are two different forms...
Maybe thats will be better if when we change a forms to change the name also or let it know we change a form for competition....to have integrity.....


I will go for Michael one very good....

.In Lama pai do you strike the Chyun Choi with the middle knuckle? the formation of the fist is with the thumbs sit on the finger ...I mean not like a boxer fist or other style? Does the pau choi (long arm uppercut is done with the back fist or with the side thumb of the fist?

Steeve

Steeve, yes, we strike with the middle knuckle in our Chyuhn Choih. The thumb sites on the finger, you are correct.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Nice, I am surpised it is so "short"...Just assumes it would be longer, but like you said, its a basic form.
Good work, though your chi wasn't flowing as well as it should have been.

Yes, I agree. It would rate it a 6.5/7 as far as performance. And back then, it was nothing as compared to my understanding of the style today. It takes time to mature in a style, I think you need to practice it for a long time to really get an advanced grasp it.

I thought I knew a lot about our Lama Pai 15 years ago. I feel like I barely scratched the surface as compared to how I understand it today.

First few sets are short, less than 80 moves. Sahp Jih, SJ Kau Da, Siu Lohan, etc.

[Steeeve]

Thank Guys(Michael & David)


Thats what I saw in the video...but just to be sure:)

Keep the good work

Steeve

[Steeeve]

Good work, though your chi wasn't flowing as well as it should have been.


Sanjuro

Thats a instructionnal video :) The Yi flow as well as it should have been:D

Steeve

[Green Cloud]

Definitively the Green gloud and Michael form are two different forms...
Maybe thats will be better if when we change a forms to change the name also or let it know we change a form for competition....to have integrity.....


I will go for Michael one very good....

.In Lama pai do you strike the Chyun Choi with the middle knuckle? the formation of the fist is with the thumbs sit on the finger ...I mean not like a boxer fist or other style? Does the pau choi (long arm uppercut is done with the back fist or with the side thumb of the fist?

Steeve

AS was stated before, we do the same form and that the student performing it made some mistakes. That being said in competitions we do play the forms differently. This is due to flavor and how different people move when they play the set. It's also the performers right to express them selves.

I can't wait to see Sifu Ross's version maybe we can all come to some compromise on how it should be performed. Sifu Ross is the authority here since he's done more Lama and I would like to see it if it's possible.

Dave if you have it on Video just tranfer it on DVD and then I'm sure you can put it on you tube.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

I don't think we're talking about a 'performance' issue. And no one is ragging on your student's performance. I think you have completely missed the point here. :(

It's a technical issue. I don't believe your student made mistakes per se; I think he is doing the form the way he was taught. I say this because I have seen your other students do this very form and another Lama form as well. This student's performance is consistant with your other students.

We are discussing the inaccuracies of techniques, not performance mistakes. I hope this clears things up.

[Steeeve]

Green Gloud

First Im not a lama pai player ....but I like the style

I think the salutation is a very important ....for traditionnal style...I dont saw this salute in the form...

I agree a form could be done with different rynthm or speed but we have to express the form not give a expression of a form for ourself....Its Ok to adapt a form or give our expression to a form for win trophee or medal in a competition .....but thats eclectic way ...from what I understood here you said you adapt the traditionnal Sup ji of Lama pai for competition...thats right? or give a competition version....

About the version of a traditionnal form....each student follow the same pattern
of the form but with different jing ,yi,and physical attribute...

Peace

Steeve

[perpetualstudnt]

Just so you guys know, the opening "salutation" was on there but the person recording didn't begin the camera on time. my apologies.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Just so you guys know, the opening "salutation" was on there but the person recording didn't begin the camera on time. my apologies.

I assumed it was.

[Green Cloud]

I don't think we're talking about a 'performance' issue. And no one is ragging on your student's performance. I think you have completely missed the point here. :(

It's a technical issue. I don't believe your student made mistakes per se; I think he is doing the form the way he was taught. I say this because I have seen your other students do this very form and another Lama form as well. This student's performance is consistant with your other students.

We are discussing the inaccuracies of techniques, not performance mistakes. I hope this clears things up.

We already established that my student made some mistakes from start to finish. Discussing the technical isuue is a mute point since it was agreed that there were some mistakes made.

My student also humbly appoligized and even asked for tip so I don't understand what the point is:confused:

The only issue here is in how you go into the sabot lohan and how you move when you do the siu kao da's.

And I have agreed that my play is different, it's still the same but we skip into the movements we don't jump we cross step into it using a monkey skip per say.

The point here is that I'ts my school my student's and it's how we do it period. You say tomaato I say tomatoe.

As far as how you were taught by our sifu 20 years ago that's just dandy if you want to play your forms exactly that way.

I like to call it progress and need I remind you that I trained with Sifu years after we parted ways.

[cjurakpt]

As far as how you were taught by our sifu 20 years ago that's just dandy if you want to play your forms exactly that way.

I like to call it progress

that's an excellent point and as one who is all for progress I agree that from one generation to the next, forms do and I believe necessarily should evolve; of course, it ought to be for a reason beyond just "playing" a form at a tourney to catch the judges eye (BTW, I don't see how the changes in the form really serve to enhance the performance factor, but that's a personal aesthetic opinion - I mean CTS once taught me a "byu ying" [demonstration] form that was a bunch of very cool / artistic moves sewn together, and looked way cooler than "Sahp Jih" ever could, even with modifications - why not just do something like that?); anyway, as composer of this new piece that could be titled "Variation on a Chan Tai San Standard" could you elaborate on the specific changes you made, detailing how they are different from the original, and also the reasons behind those changes (e.g. - from research into how the style is / was played elsewhere, changes in applications that make more "sense", personal kinesthetic evolution, etc.)? that would certainly be interesting to everyone;

[Lama Pai Sifu]

We already established that my student made some mistakes from start to finish. Discussing the technical isuue is a mute point since it was agreed that there were some mistakes made.

My student also humbly appoligized and even asked for tip so I don't understand what the point is:confused:

The only issue here is in how you go into the sabot lohan and how you move when you do the siu kao da's.

And I have agreed that my play is different, it's still the same but we skip into the movements we don't jump we cross step into it using a monkey skip per say.

The point here is that I'ts my school my student's and it's how we do it period. You say tomaato I say tomatoe.

As far as how you were taught by our sifu 20 years ago that's just dandy if you want to play your forms exactly that way.

I like to call it progress and need I remind you that I trained with Sifu years after we parted ways.


Like I said, there is a difference between making a mistake, i.e., losing your balance, forgetting a move, etc. That is NOT what we are talking about.

And I don't know what you mean by 'sabot lohan'. I thought for a minute you had learned to speak yiddish.

And I have a good memory, I needn't be reminded of anything. But are you implying that our teacher would just miraculously 'change' techiques for you and no one else? And what exactly did you train in? Except for the forms which you have admittly created, you are only teaching forms that either myself (CLF forms) or Dave (Lama forms) learned. So I'm not sure what you are referencing by 'reminding' me of that. I haven't seen any new material come from your school (and yes, I've seen your students over the years, both at tournaments and one's who've either trained with me or visited) - your still teaching our forms.

Listen, I'm all for creative thinking. I also think that each teacher should change/augment/add/subtract things from their styles and create their own 'thing'. I haven't really finished with my CLF and LAMA yet, but I intend to make my own contributions to them as well. But if techniques are proper, they should be passed on that way.

Sifu wouldn't have a problem with any of us choreographing our own forms. Someone had to make them, right? But he'd be yelling at you if he saw the way you changed some of his techniques.

We've all tried to help you over the years, but you are quite stubborn when it comes to anyone giving your advice or corrections (regarding KF).

We just want to see our teacher's styles past on correctly. Not closed to some change or interpretation, but the techniques should be done right.

You don't have to act like a know-it-all or a big shot all the time. You're students will not lose respect for you if you are not great at something or you don't have all the answers. But they will lose respect if you fudge things or create info or history about stuff that isn't true.

Now, again I feel I need to say this; "I'm not threatening you or calling you names, making fun of your or talking about how you run you social life or your business." I'm getting stuff off my chest in a polite and respectful manner, that if you are man enough to listen to, you might be able to end the chaos between yourself and your classmates.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

why not just do something like that?); anyway, as composer of this new piece that could be titled "Variation on a Chan Tai San Standard" could you elaborate on the specific changes you made, detailing how they are different from the original, and also the reasons behind those changes (e.g. - from research into how the style is / was played elsewhere, changes in applications that make more "sense", personal kinesthetic evolution, etc.)? that would certainly be interesting to everyone;


Holy crap! Are you serious?? I'm glad neither you nor Law Si-Gun was ever responsible for naming our forms. God only know what my students would be learning today...

Coming from you, a card carrying member of the Martial Science Collective. Prepare to be assimilated!!!

(that sounds like a whole new thread to me...)

[Lama Pai Sifu]

By the way, I was off from work today, which is why I'm posting like a lunatic~

[Green Cloud]

Mike that's obvious, but I had to work today and realy don't have time to respond to some of these long drawn out post. It would be a lot easier to have this discussion in person.

Unfortunatly the show House is on and it's the wife's time now, and that takes presidence over this thread.

See Ya

Oh yea Chris I'm not ignoring you just don't have the time,, just stop by my school and I can show you what I mean or stop by at the next tournament that we will be at.

[cjurakpt]

Holy crap! Are you serious?? I'm glad neither you nor Law Si-Gun was ever responsible for naming our forms. God only know what my students would be learning today...

Coming from you, a card carrying member of the Martial Science Collective. Prepare to be assimilated!!!

(that sounds like a whole new thread to me...)

well, it was the kind of name that you might have given to some sort of experimental jazz piece from the 1960's, just thought it was appropriate...

BTW, you have already been assimilated - it just felt so good,you didn't notice...:cool:

[lkfmdc]

in all fairness, Chris didn't come up with the "martial science collective" name

(even typing it makes my skin crawl :eek: but it is still better than the "bored bunch of NYU guys with nothing better to do club")

Chris did however campaign and got it passed, for this alone he is set to burn in heck :D

I personally wanted to call it "touch my wrist and I'll fly like science fiction club"

[cjurakpt]

in all fairness, Chris didn't come up with the "martial science collective" name

(even typing it makes my skin crawl :eek: but it is still better than the "bored bunch of NYU guys with nothing better to do club")

Chris did however campaign and got it passed, for this alone he is set to burn in heck :D

I personally wanted to call it "touch my wrist and I'll fly like science fiction club"

my actual favorite was the "Applied Deconstruction Club"...

[lkfmdc]

my actual favorite was the "Applied Deconstruction Club"...

ah, the good old days....

remember dan Kugan finding out that there are no rattle snakes in China?

[cjurakpt]

ah, the good old days....

remember dan Kugan finding out that there are no rattle snakes in China?

or that his "snake dance" routine was, shall we say, suspect? but I must say he handled it like a real mensch;

how about Mitch, spontaneously manifesting Fukien Dog Boxing?

but joking aside for a moment, if you step back and think about it, what we did was, for all intents and purposes, a proto-MMA club - I mean the whole idea was to have people come together from different styles and exchange, but not just in terms of techniques, but to actually try sparring with each other! cross-over live training! like having an Aikido guy see what happens when he spars a TKD guy - and like today, there were some people who "couldn't handle the turth" and git very upset when their bubble was burst - fortunatley, the vast majority of folks were happy to be shown the weaknesses in what they did, which they never would have known if they hadn't tried to work with people outside of their system

truly ground breaking, a great moment in time (oh, and Dave - I bumped into a certain knife-wielding poet / massage therapist formerly from Cali via Inosanto on the street last week - he and his wife had a baby girl not long ago - guess it's catching...)

[lkfmdc]

but joking aside for a moment, if you step back and think about it, what we did was, for all intents and purposes, a proto-MMA club - I mean the whole idea was to have people come together from different styles and exchange, but not just in terms of techniques, but to actually try sparring with each other! cross-over live training! like having an Aikido guy see what happens when he spars a TKD guy - and like today, there were some people who "couldn't handle the turth" and git very upset when their bubble was burst - fortunatley, the vast majority of folks were happy to be shown the weaknesses in what they did, which they never would have known if they hadn't tried to work with people outside of their system



oh, certainly, a "dirty secret" that the idea isn't so "new" after all (nor is the getting your nose out of joint and crying about it either).

as I think we both know, I'm not really doing much different know than I was doing when you met me all those many many years ago... but don't tell anyone, ok?

[jmd161]

You're students will not lose respect for you if you are not great at something or you don't have all the answers. But they will lose respect if you fudge things or create info or history about stuff that isn't true.


That is a very true statement!


No getting involved in the discussion, just pointing out from a students point of view.:D



jeff:)

[perpetualstudnt]

I was just wondering, was there any luck in you figureing out how to post up the video of you doing "Lama Sup Ji," Sifu Ross? I would love to see it done at full speed and power, it may answer some questions I have on how to play certain parts. Thanks again, and thank you Sifu Parrella for the vid that you posted.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

I was just wondering, was there any luck in you figureing out how to post up the video of you doing "Lama Sup Ji," Sifu Ross? I would love to see it done at full speed and power, it may answer some questions I have on how to play certain parts. Thanks again, and thank you Sifu Parrella for the vid that you posted.

No problem. Towards the end of your form, you do che sau before the last two So Choih's, but in your form, you are squatting down. There is no squat.

Also, do you see the difference in the combination (3) after the double palm push? Slicing Palm (Piin jeung) and Biu (Thrusting) are the two hand tech. right before pulling back into cat and opening the crane wings. The first two strikes aim directly at the side of the throat and then the front of the throat.

There are a bunch of other things that I would like to tell you, but I don't really feel like developing carpel tunnel syndrome. If I see you at a tournament in the future, I'll go over it with you. You are welcome to stop by and see me if you are ever in the area.

Either way, no one was ragging on your performance. We all thought you did a good job and most likely did the form as you were taught.

The video tape of me is almost 14 years old. I look at it today and cringe at all the small mistakes and the way I play the form (Even though it was for instructional purposes and not a real performace). One of my students CLFPStudent, competed with that form in the five tigers tourney '06. We went over the play of the form a lot and I definatly look at the form differently then I did 14 years ago. Not so much for the application or technical aspects of the techniques, but for play/flavor.

Hope this helps.

[perpetualstudnt]

Looking at my performance makes me cringe as well, but, as I have learned that is the way of things. When any martial artist looks at film of himself and thinks that he has nothing to improve, that is when he no longer grows as a martial artist.

One of the liberties that I have taken as an "artist" is that I like to make my forms as aggressive as possible, so I like to move forward on all of my techniques, whenever practical. This, from what I've learned of these systems (choi lei faht/lama pai) seems how they like to fight, always on the attack, especially when being attacked. What's the saying? The best defense is a good offense?

But I'm sure that you'll agree, in that form, the hardest part of that form to play with true power and speed is following that double palm strike. I'm still working on making the biin cheun's look crisp and powerful. Not as easily done as I would like. But I definately "crouched" too much during this performance on that last chae sao/ sao choi. Always something to improve, which is why I love kung fu.

I would still love to see Sifu Ross's footage of this form at full speed. Learning a form and performing a form are two different things and it's always good to see those more experienced than me performing.

Once again, thanks for your comments on my performance, and for your information. When do you think I'll be seeing you and your students at another tournament?

P.S. is CLFPStudent the guy that does the rope dart set?

[Lama Pai Sifu]

P.S. is CLFPStudent the guy that does the rope dart set?

No. He didn't do an handform at the tourny.

[hskwarrior]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6Kx4iXZbW8

[shaolin_allan]

in some ways that looks similiar to tongbeiquan

[Green Cloud]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6Kx4iXZbW8

Hey that's different he didn't do the famous opening, it must be wrong, maybe he changed it. What the fok I'm ****ed he moves way to fast and actualy has to much power in his form WTF??? I'm just kidding I liked it:)

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Hey that's different he didn't do the famous opening, it must be wrong, maybe he changed it. What the fok I'm ****ed he moves way to fast and actualy has to much power in his form WTF??? I'm just kidding I liked it:)

And this is exactly how you rub people the wrong way; you make snyd little comment and remarks. And all you do is constantly make fun of people and call them names. And then you go "ha ha ha, I'm just kidding."

No of us call you names on this forum. We don't reference any physical characteristics you may or not possess. We don't talk about your sexual habits or performance. We don't talk about your wives or your financial situations. We don't make up stories about you. (And believe me; we know where the bodies are burried) WE talk about Kung-Fu. But no need to apologize; we know why you have to constantly defer or distract for the points we raise.

I guess you really don't let things go as you said. :)

I guess you really didn't read my last post to you. :(

Oh, ha ha ha, I'm just kidding. Don't take what I say seriously. I'm just messin' with you. <insert straw apology here>

[Green Cloud]

Hey bud lets keep our issues in group therapy ok, not on the forum. I never mentioned you did I ???:confused: I wasn't even talking to you nor do I want to unless it's face to face otherwise bug off:mad:

[Green Cloud]

in some ways that looks similiar to tongbeiquan

I can see what you mean but Lama is a southern style.

[Green Cloud]

I wonder why people keep on calling it this

http://www.risingcrane.co.uk/html_files/history.htm

[lkfmdc]

I wonder why people keep on calling it this

http://www.risingcrane.co.uk/html_files/history.htm

Because most of the English speaking world relied and relies (and plagarizes on their web sites) the stuff I published in the 90's and I mistranslated "Ching Wan". Since Sifu first wrote the character in DIRT with a spear, I missed the water radical and thought it was GREEN

I also made the mistake of writing that the "Ching Wan" temple sifu was raised in was the same one Sing Lung settled in. They are within walking distance but they are different places

HOWEVER, since we now have gone back and looked at the actual stuff SIFU WROTE, and even better, have pics of the temple itself, we know that it is NOT "green"

[Green Cloud]

I wonder why people keep on calling it this

http://www.risingcrane.co.uk/html_files/history.htm

I find this interesting since these guys are not related to me or anybody I know but they refer to the Green Cloud Monestary

[hskwarrior]

now i've heard about this issue, and the only way to figure it out is if there was existing characters of this temple.......

but is the ringsingcrane people incorrect in calling this monestary "Green Cloud"?

isn't this the same one?

[Green Cloud]

Because most of the English speaking world relied and relies (and plagarizes on their web sites) the stuff I published in the 90's and I mistranslated "Ching Wan". Since Sifu first wrote the character in DIRT with a spear, I missed the water radical and thought it was GREEN

I also made the mistake of writing that the "Ching Wan" temple sifu was raised in was the same one Sing Lung settled in. They are within walking distance but they are different places

HOWEVER, since we now have gone back and looked at the actual stuff SIFU WROTE, and even better, have pics of the temple itself, we know that it is NOT "green"

I'm sorry but what picks are you reffering to Dave??? Do you have pictures of the monestary or better yet the sighn over the monestary??

[lkfmdc]

the "other magazine" (out of respect to Gene) is distributed internationally and now, thanks to the internet material can be diseminated in seconds across continents

before I published my articles, the SOLE source on the art was David Chin/Michael Staples book which had been split up into three separate titles. It's history is spotty at best, it even suffers similar "Chinese to English" translation errors (a technique is translated as a proper name - I found the original CHINESE source and found the error).

Rising Crane is very real Hap Ga, in fact they are from the son of one of Sifu's teachers. But I'm sure they have seen the articles and been influenced by them

Again, it is really simple

1. WE HAVE SIFU's OWN WRITING AND IT IS CLEARLY NOT "GREEN"

2. WE HAVE PICS OF THE TEMPLE AND IT IS CLEARLY NOT "GREEN"

We all made the error in the past, it was MY ERROR originally, but to continue to pass it off when you know it is wrong is intellectually dishonest

[lkfmdc]

I'm sorry but what picks are you reffering to Dave??? Do you have pictures of the monestary or better yet the sighn over the monestary??

Mike has them, and also confirmed that while the temple Sing Lung was in "Blessed Cloud" is renovated and beautiful the temple sifu actually was raised in is overgrown and basicly a ruin

Again, it isn't about making the mistake, we ALL made it, it was MY MISTAKE, but now that we know beyond ANY shadow of a doubt that it was a MISTAKE, why continue with it?

[Green Cloud]

the "other magazine" (out of respect to Gene) is distributed internationally and now, thanks to the internet material can be diseminated in seconds across continents

before I published my articles, the SOLE source on the art was David Chin/Michael Staples book which had been split up into three separate titles. It's history is spotty at best, it even suffers similar "Chinese to English" translation errors (a technique is translated as a proper name - I found the original CHINESE source and found the error).

Rising Crane is very real Hap Ga, in fact they are from the son of one of Sifu's teachers. But I'm sure they have seen the articles and been influenced by them

Again, it is really simple

1. WE HAVE SIFU's OWN WRITING AND IT IS CLEARLY NOT "GREEN"

2. WE HAVE PICS OF THE TEMPLE AND IT IS CLEARLY NOT "GREEN"

We all made the error in the past, it was MY ERROR originally, but to continue to pass it off when you know it is wrong is intellectually dishonest

Dave just for my own etification and I don't mean to doubt you but what pics of the temple do you mean?? Do you have pictures?? Once again I don't mean to be Coy but Do you have actual pictures??

[lkfmdc]

By the way, so as to put it in perspective, the Catholic Church recently found a handwritten manuscript where a copy error (in the past all tracts were hand copied) inadvertently changed the meaning of the passage! It's an error over 600 years old, and now the church must contend with the fact that they taught a doctrine based upon a human copying error

IE, Sh-it happens

[lkfmdc]

Mike has them, and also confirmed that while the temple Sing Lung was in "Blessed Cloud" is renovated and beautiful the temple sifu actually was raised in is overgrown and basicly a ruin

Again, it isn't about making the mistake, we ALL made it, it was MY MISTAKE, but now that we know beyond ANY shadow of a doubt that it was a MISTAKE, why continue with it?

what part of "Mike has them" did you not understand?

he has actual pics of the monastery.... we also (again) went back and looked at like 35 copies of stuff sifu had written and in each and every one he had written the water radical... again, I missed it, it was my error, but it was clearly an ERROR

TOO BAD I WAS THE ONLY ONE STUDYING CHINESE, or we might have picked it up earlier

[Green Cloud]

By the way, so as to put it in perspective, the Catholic Church recently found a handwritten manuscript where a copy error (in the past all tracts were hand copied) inadvertently changed the meaning of the passage! It's an error over 600 years old, and now the church must contend with the fact that they taught a doctrine based upon a human copying error

IE, Sh-it happens

AS a Greek Orthodox Christian I have to tell you that the first original bible was written in Greek. Pope Jhon paul even came out and appoligized and admitted that it was part of the anti ortdox movement to seperate them selves that the Catholic church changed Dates and times on their calendar.

Poin being using the Catholic Church is a good example of how things get distorted don't you think??

[Green Cloud]

what part of "Mike has them" did you not understand?

he has actual pics of the monastery.... we also (again) went back and looked at like 35 copies of stuff sifu had written and in each and every one he had written the water radical... again, I missed it, it was my error, but it was clearly an ERROR

TOO BAD I WAS THE ONLY ONE STUDYING CHINESE, or we might have picked it up earlier

dave once again I don't mean to be argumentative but you mentioned that Mike had Pics since I've never seen them, naturaly I'd like to see the pics. Is that possible??

[lkfmdc]

AS a Greek Orthodox Christian I have to tell you that the first original bible was written in Greek. Pope Jhon paul even came out and appoligized and admitted that it was part of the anti ortdox movement to seperate them selves that the Catholic church changed Dates and times on their calendar.

Poin being using the Catholic Church is a good example of how things get distorted don't you think??

Actually, Jesus and the original apostles all spoke and wrote Aramaic.

Paul, whose mission was to bring the gospel to the gentil, used Greek since it was the lingua franca of the Roman empire. The fact that ancient Greek is subject to multiple interpretations is but one part of the problem, but add to it that a hand written manuscript is subject to not only human error but SMUDGED INK and bleed through from the other side of the page.....

Regardless, errors can result in substantial changes. But once said errors are discovered it is better to CORRECT them than to carry on business as usual

The charater 清 as you can see to the left has the "water radical" or "three strokes"... without the radical it is a different word. I missed the three strokes (understandable when you realize sifu was writing in dirt with a spear).. my mistake, but since we know it's a mistake, again, why continue it?

[Green Cloud]

Originaly when I spoke to Mike about his trip he said he didn't go to the monestary since it was in rubble. Once again I mean no disrespect here, but if this was National Geographic they woul have undisputable evidence on camera and on video:(

[lkfmdc]

considering the hour, I am not going to crawl into the basement to find sifu's old writings, but I promise I will and scan it... so you can see the character that he wrote (I'll use photoshop to highlight it)

I don't have the pics on this computer, Mike sent them to me and then my computer crashed, you'd have to ask Mike

[The Xia]

Didn't your sifu ever say the name of the monastery? It's odd to me that he would write it on dirt with a spear but never say it. :confused:

[lkfmdc]

Didn't your sifu ever say the name of the monastery? It's odd to me that he would write it on dirt with a spear but never say it. :confused:

the two characters sound the same in Cantonese.....

[Green Cloud]

Actually, Jesus and the original apostles all spoke and wrote Aramaic.

Paul, whose mission was to bring the gospel to the gentil, used Greek since it was the lingua franca of the Roman empire. The fact that ancient Greek is subject to multiple interpretations is but one part of the problem, but add to it that a hand written manuscript is subject to not only human error but SMUDGED INK and bleed through from the other side of the page.....

Regardless, errors can result in substantial changes. But once said errors are discovered it is better to CORRECT them than to carry on business as usual

The charater 清 as you can see to the left has the "water radical" or "three strokes"... without the radical it is a different word. I missed the three strokes (understandable when you realize sifu was writing in dirt with a spear).. my mistake, but since we know it's a mistake, again, why continue it?

I just want to get to the bottom of this, since originally you say we made a mistake don't you think it's worth further investigation. Maybe we shoul all make the trip and actualy find the monestary.

[Green Cloud]

the two characters sound the same in Cantonese.....

What do you mean, Luk whan Ji and Chin whan Ji sound the same??

[The Xia]

the two characters sound the same in Cantonese.....
Well that explains it. So is the word for "clear" "luk" (same as "green")?

[Green Cloud]

[QUOTE=lkfmdc;822263]Actually, Jesus and the original apostles all spoke and wrote Aramaic.

Paul, whose mission was to bring the gospel to the gentil, used Greek since it was the lingua franca of the Roman empire. The fact that ancient Greek is subject to multiple interpretations is but one part of the problem, but add to it that a hand written manuscript is subject to not only human error but SMUDGED INK and bleed through from the other side of the page.....

Regardless, errors can result in substantial changes. But once said errors are discovered it is better to CORRECT them than to carry on business as usual

The charater 清 as you can see to the left has the "water radical" or "three strokes"... without the radical it is a different word. I missed the three strokes (understandable when you realize sifu was writing in dirt with a spear).. my mistake, but since we know it's a mistake, again, why continue it?

[/QUOTE

This is totally off the topic but The point is Aramaic was spoken but the original bible was written in GREEK period.

[Green Cloud]

Well that explains it. So is the word for "clear" "luk" (same as "green")?

That's exactly my point

[Green Cloud]

considering the hour, I am not going to crawl into the basement to find sifu's old writings, but I promise I will and scan it... so you can see the character that he wrote (I'll use photoshop to highlight it)

I don't have the pics on this computer, Mike sent them to me and then my computer crashed, you'd have to ask Mike

Your right it's late but as far as your computer crashing give me a break,, you are the master of this forum and everyone knows you have a state of the art computer and you are too smart to let that happen. None the less I already told you that Mike told me that he didn't visit the monestary so how would you have that picture??

[lkfmdc]

"Luk" and "Ching" are two different Chinese characters are are both words for "green" (they are different shades). "Ching" for "green" sounds the same as "Ching" for "clear" (or "pure").

Chan Tai San NEVER said "Luk Waan".... EVER..... he always called it "Ching Waan" which sounds the same....

Funny how those who weren't even there want to jump into the discussion :rolleyes:

and you're right Gus, my computer couldn't possible have crashed, because, after all, you say so :rolleyes: (/sarcasm)....

I'm curious how "everyone" knows what sort of computer I have?

[Green Cloud]

OK guy I'm turning in , good night Xia, good night Dave, good night Jhon boy:) Jeesh Dave stop being so touchy.

[Green Cloud]

Oh by the way Dave You know I love you, hugs and kisses:)

[lkfmdc]

It certainly isn't my fault that you never studied Chinese and don't understand these differences

I believe you and Mike used to have a copy of this book in the office, Janey Chen's "practical Chinese-English"

[lkfmdc]

maybe now you might figure out what is going on :rolleyes:

[Lama Pai Sifu]

What do you mean, Luk whan Ji and Chin whan Ji sound the same??

NO. There are several ways to say GREEN is what he is pointing out. One of the ways is Ching. Ching is also the word for clear. They are different characters but sound similiar. That is how are mistake was supported. The characters are very very similiar and they sound alike. We were the one's who said "Luhk." Laurette and David are the one's that first interpreted it. I think you are just arguing it because you named your school after a temple that doesn't exist. Honest mistake. We all thought that until 2004. Incidently, it was Steven Inocenzzi who brought this up to us about 15 years ago, but we didn't listen. Pfffft, what did he know?


Allow me to take this opportunity to finally set the record straight regarding the temple where our beloved and often cranky Sifu, Chan Tai-San was raised and learned a great deal of his Kung-Fu, especially since I am the one who went back to Toi San where it is located, twice.

I met with several people who actually grew up in, an around the temple.

The temple is very well known in Toi San.

I received a complete lineage of who trained at the temple; this includes a list of our Si-Gung's Sifus. Filed in all the holes. Along with all of Jyu Chuyhn's students/disciples as well.

I have also spent a total of three days on two separate trips with our Si-Gung's son, Jyu Maan Yeung.

I have several pages of writing from him and three of Sifu's classmates sons.

Here is a PIC (http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l212/longislandonline/ToiSan1.jpg) of Jyu Chuyhn's last student, I don't have his name handy - Me, Jyu Chuyhn's son, Jyu Maan Yeung and Lei Fei San's (Chan Tai-San's best friend and classmate) son. All these men have been to the temple while it was in operation. Jyu Maan Yeung is 70 at the time of this photo in 12.2005

4 months later with his senior student. PIC (http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l212/longislandonline/ToiSan2006Day2010.jpg)

I have at least 10 documents where Sifu writes about the temple. He clearly uses the "CLEAR" character and not the "GREEN" character.

Here is one for them.

CLEAR CLOUD TEMPLE (http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l212/longislandonline/ChoyLeiFutLineage1.jpg)

This is undeniable proof that there was no Green Cloud Temple, there was no Green Cloud Choy Lay Fut. This was an honest error.

If there are any people on the web that have used this name, it came directly from the writings or websites of David Ross, Steven Ventura or myself. Being we are the only one's that have ever published info on Lama within our group. We wrote this name in an article in 1991 and I believe David Ross may have mentioned it in an article from 1988 (both in IKF magazine). Many people have just taken our word, since our teacher was considered the foremost authority in this country on the style. It wasn't his mistake, it was ours.

End of Temple Discussion. Case closed. No Green Cloud, only Clear Cloud.

I hope this conversation can now be finally put to rest.

[hskwarrior]

清 qīng clear; distinct; complete; pure


青= green


清 云 is this the same one written.......it means clear cloud.

[hskwarrior]

someone with the name rising crane was viewing this thread.....wonder why he didn't jump on in and clear things up?

[Lama Pai Sifu]

I know David, he's an excellent practitioner and seems to be a great guy. He visited my a few years ago on a trip to NY. He didn't jump in because it doesn't directly impact him, his school or his lineage. Like I said, lots of people reference materials that WE had already put out there. I'll send him an email...

[lkfmdc]

清 qīng clear; distinct; complete; pure


青= green


清 云 is this the same one written.......it means clear cloud.


EXACTLY!

you can see the characters are very similar (one has the three stroke water radical the other doesn't)

they sound the same in Cantonese

it was a mistake, mistakes happen, some people move on, others hold onto and can't admit mistakes apparently

Hoonestly, what I find really annoying is that in all the years that we were with CTS, Gus never showed any interest in learning any Chinese at all...

[hskwarrior]

well, a mistake is a mistake........

but i think we all would agree, a pic of the temple with its sign above would have taken care of all this.

but sifu gus is already established his school. kinda hard to up and change it suddenly. The good thing about this could be sifu gus has created a branch within your school that HE calls Green Cloud. It doesn't matter whats behind the name. its whats being done with the name.

At the moment, sifu gus and 'Green Cloud" are synonymous...........

[lkfmdc]

At the moment, sifu gus and 'Green Cloud" are synonymous...........

that's fine

he can even call it "Luhk Waan Kung Fu" (as he already has in the past)

but when we discuss CTS, his sifu, his lineage etc we should from now on put up the correct version

as for David in UK and his Hap Ga, as I ALREADY SAID they are 100% real Hap Ga, in fact Sifu Chan studied with his Si Gung....

It isn't a huge issue, there was NOTHIGN in English until I published in the 1990's and most people followed us, took us at our word, which was fine, because this was a mistake and mistakes happen

[hskwarrior]

the most important thing is that there are only a hand full of sifu Chan's students left doing anything.

you guys are training brothers, regardles of who's first, longest, shortest, fattest, skinniest.........

if you sifu were alive would he want to see all the drama going on.

my sifu is still alive and i know he hates drama in his school.

so, there's nothing wrong with green cloud, sifu gus can now make his legacy. but if Clear cloud is the correct name, then make it so for all future gens to know.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

And no one has a problem with that, Frank.

But when you misrepresent that, there is a problem.

Gus states that the green cloud temple goes back hundreds of years in china.

Okay, replace green with clear, no problem.

But then his site says that he is the head of Green Cloud in the US.

1. there is no temple of that name.
2. he is not head of or represents any temple associated with our teacher.
3. he is not even the head or senior student of CTS's Choy Lay Fut in the US.

I was givin the responsibiliy, in writing of passing on CTS's CLF style and I am named as the head. I don't ever even talk about that, but when someone ELSE wants to claim what isn't true, then there is a problem.

If I understand what you are suggesting...you are saying that Gus should make it more clear that he calls his school Green Cloud and that there is not temple with that name. Furthermore, he should state that Green Cloud is his branch and his branch only and NOT that people are doing Green Cloud CLF all over the world (because they are not).

I don't think that anyone one would have a challenge with that at all. But currently, he is promoting several untruths on his website. They should be corrected.

At least everyone now knows that there is NO GREEN CLOUD TEMPLE associated with CHAN TAI-SAN.

[hskwarrior]

see a mistake is a mistake though.

its kinda hard to go back and erase what been done.

and to your guy's admission, dave ross made the mistake.....NOT sifu gus. to be fair, YOU guys fed him that information, right? so go light on him.

and to be honest, as far i know, there's a hand full of students, but you never hear who is the chose one for CTS. if you are......step up to the plate.

if its left open, then you all should honor CTS and make something of his gung fu.

if the words are really clear cloud, then historically fix the problem. but now sifu gus has an interesting story behind his schools name.

i'm sure if he changed it right now to clear cloud and made and explanation on his site, it would ease people into knowing why there's confusion.

but if sifu gus wanted to, using the GREEN CLOUD name, he can do what he wants in his school. It's clear you guys are all separate in doing your own thing.

but i would agree, historically, make sure the change is in place about the name.

[lkfmdc]

and to your guy's admission, dave ross made the mistake.....NOT sifu gus. to be fair, YOU guys fed him that information, right? so go light on him.



Frank, with respect, I think you are missing the point

No one is "going hard" on Gus for calling it Green Cloud, but for crying out loud, don't argue with us when we explain why it isn't really "green"

Since Gus never wanted to be bothered with learning any Chinese, as opposed to me who went to Graduate school to learn it, please don't try and argue with me about Chinese characters!

In all honesty, the real issues we have had with Gus are misrepresentations that have been perpetuated.

I've seen you go NUTS when a guy who is clearly a troll insults your sifu and lineage. Here we have a guy who is actually part of the tradition spreading mis-information

I have met students of Gus who have told me with a straight face that Gus was raised by CTS. Not only is Gus NOT an orphan, he met CTS when he was already in his 30's!

Pretty much all of CTS hing-dai get along just fine, and you don't see us pulling out the letters and red baai si books and laying the smack down because there is very little issue really inside the pai.....

[Green Cloud]

I am currently working on updating my site as far as comming to terms about the name it realy doesn't matter and I am the head of Green Cloud since that is what my school is called.

Its my logo period. By the way last time I checked You were calling it the Green Cloud Monestary on your web site, not to say that you may not have changed it recently.

As far as research is concerned until I see a picture of the monestery or visit in person witch is something that I will do I will not be conviced.

Not to say that I am not going along with what you are saying but that I am just not %100 pecent convinced beyond the shadow of a doubt.

Anyway Dave said he had a picture that's all I was getting at.

[cjurakpt]

if you sifu were alive would he want to see all the drama going on.
anybody else want to answer this one? <looks around> no? ok: YES; sad to say, CTS thrived on drama - if there wasn't any, he went and created it; those who were there know what I mean; 'nuff said...

so, there's nothing wrong with green cloud, sifu gus can now make his legacy.
well, actually , there is something "wrong" with the term "Green Cloud" - not only is it a meaningless term (in terms of having anything to do with the tradition of a style), but from a philological perspective (and this is according to my current sifu who is a trained Chinese classicist) , it's bad form: that is, the qualitative aspect of the language would not "allow" for these two characters to be together - it's basically a mater of literary style...

unfortunately for Gus, and I do mean this sincerely, he has invested a significant portion of his livelihood in a name that is a mistake - and I'm guessing that it's conflicting to him, because while teachers in the TCMA community may care about being accurate with this sort of thing (and Gus does hold himself out as a "traditionalist" in that community), 99.9% of his paying clients couldn't give a crap, and in fact changing the name, from a marketing perspective, would be a nightmare (I mean, it took Cingular over a year to advertise its transition to AT&T, and that's a nationally recognized brand name to begin with!) and wouldn't make a difference after all is said and done anyway; and this is why he is on here "debating" the term and trying to come up with a justification as to why he should keep using it;

btw, as re: the Bible: the Old Testament was originally written in Hebrew and was then translated to Greek; the New Testament was written largely in Greek, but some of it was translated from texts written in Aramaic or Hebrew

[hskwarrior]

i know thats an issue for YOU GUYS to deal with.

now, i'm not disputing anything........totally on the outside on this one.


but, YES, when you insult my lineage (especially when i don't insult anyones-history is one thing) i will tell you about yourself, Quick!!!!

I'm no pyscho, but i am a devoted and loyal disciple of hung sing. and in OUR school, we protect that honor. I will and have handled things in regards to my sifu's honor and our schools. Yes, to others i may come across all crazy when you insult my school...........but one thing is for sure.......i'm a soldier!!!!! i fight for what i believe in, and i believe people shouldn't insult anyone's lineage without proper cause.

but from what i see, you guys DO have an issue with sifu gus. thats something you keep private in your own schools.

but don't take me wrong. i just don't think the issue of green, blue red or whatever isn't the big issue.

[lkfmdc]

I am the head of Green Cloud since that is what my school is called.



And no one has an issue with that.... we've both said that like 3 or 4 times already




last time I checked You were calling it the Green Cloud Monestary on your web site, not to say that you may not have changed it recently.



straw men are really unecessary :rolleyes:
WE ALL CALLED IT THAT until we figured out our msitake

Frank did a great thing by putting up both charactrs SIDE BY SIDE, now you can see that they look very much alike, and they SOUND the same




As far as research is concerned until I see a picture of the monestery or visit in person witch is something that I will do I will not be conviced.



so, now you're saying that Chan Tai San was a liar? :rolleyes:

you can look at sifu's own handwriting (and it is very distinct) and see the character he wrote. Take it to ANY Chinese and they will show you the water radical

[Lama Pai Sifu]

see a mistake is a mistake though.

its kinda hard to go back and erase what been done.

and to your guy's admission, dave ross made the mistake.....NOT sifu gus. to be fair, YOU guys fed him that information, right? so go light on him.

and to be honest, as far i know, there's a hand full of students, but you never hear who is the chose one for CTS. if you are......step up to the plate.

if its left open, then you all should honor CTS and make something of his gung fu.

if the words are really clear cloud, then historically fix the problem. but now sifu gus has an interesting story behind his schools name.

i'm sure if he changed it right now to clear cloud and made and explanation on his site, it would ease people into knowing why there's confusion.

but if sifu gus wanted to, using the GREEN CLOUD name, he can do what he wants in his school. It's clear you guys are all separate in doing your own thing.

but i would agree, historically, make sure the change is in place about the name.

Hey Frank, Gus is a big boy and can fight his own battles. I don't even know where this concerns you.

And with certain styles, yes, my teacher appointed a head. It is in writing. We don't talk about it because there is no need. Plus, inside our group, everyone knows where everyone really stands. There is no plate to step up to.

And no one is ragging on Gus because of David's mistake. If you read everything with an unbiased eye, you'd understand that. We are ragging on him because he is perpetrating a lie at this point, for his own gain. We all know that there is no Green, but he still talks about it and our teacher like it's a real place.

But YOU are not helping anything by obviously going to bat for him.

And you said "IF the words are really Clear Cloud" - of course they are! Why would you even try to fan a flame by saying things like that? The proof has been displayed for all to see.

I don't see what you are trying to resolve here. Only gus can resolve this. You have nothing to do with it.

And I'm almost expecting you to start in with me now, because you may not like what I said. The truth of the matter is, this doesn't concern you. You are only getting involved because there is some kind of drama here and you are not happy unless you are involved in drama.

[hskwarrior]

where does this concern me?

as most of you guys feel, and have said, its a public forum. when you publicly air your dirty laundry, others have to smell it. so if i'm smelling it, it has something to do with me.

not forgetting , sifu gus is a friend of mine.

[hskwarrior]

actually you're wrong again........

because the very first time i ever saw those characters, i proved that you guys may be in the correct.

thats MY contribution.........

do me a favor, idk if its that NY thing, but do you always speak the way you do?

your tone makes me WANT to argue with YOU.

[hskwarrior]

if it don't concern me.......

take it off the forum!!!!!

[Lama Pai Sifu]

where does this concern me?

as most of you guys feel, and have said, its a public forum. when you publicly air your dirty laundry, others have to smell it. so if i'm smelling it, it has something to do with me.

not forgetting , sifu gus is a friend of mine.

Right, but you are being 'invited' out of the discussion. There is nothing you can add to it positively, so anything you say/do will detract from what we are all trying to accomplish - that being RESOLUTION.

This is not one of your lineage wars or unprovable history items that you appear so fond of and that you beat into the ground. This concerns us, not you. Just because we are using the forum to communicate, doesn't mean that we asked you to pull up a chair and grab the microphone. So, why don't you just sit in the back and eat your popcorn like you said you were going to to.

[cjurakpt]

Dave & Mike: check your PM box...

[lkfmdc]

I'm from NY Frank, born and raised here, and I think all my posts here have been factual, accurate and not personal in any way

The issues are public because web sites are public and this forum is public, and stuff is said on the web site and here on teh forum that are not correct.

Again (5th time?) if he wants to call his school "green cloud" why would any of us care?

We don't care that in the PAST he used that name in RE to Chan Tai San, becasue we ALL did

But NOW, in the present, we all know it isn't correct, so from now on, in RE to CTS and his Pai, dont' say it is "green"

pretty simple, no?

[Green Cloud]

Frank, with respect, I think you are missing the point

No one is "going hard" on Gus for calling it Green Cloud, but for crying out loud, don't argue with us when we explain why it isn't really "green"

Since Gus never wanted to be bothered with learning any Chinese, as opposed to me who went to Graduate school to learn it, please don't try and argue with me about Chinese characters!

In all honesty, the real issues we have had with Gus are misrepresentations that have been perpetuated.

I've seen you go NUTS when a guy who is clearly a troll insults your sifu and lineage. Here we have a guy who is actually part of the tradition spreading mis-information

I have met students of Gus who have told me with a straight face that Gus was raised by CTS. Not only is Gus NOT an orphan, he met CTS when he was already in his 30's!

Pretty much all of CTS hing-dai get along just fine, and you don't see us pulling out the letters and red baai si books and laying the smack down because there is very little issue really inside the pai.....


Frank this is very thing I'm talking about. Everything that Dave sais about me is a lye for instance he tries to make you think that I didn't study with CTS till my 30's that's propostorous.

If you look at the vid of Sifu CTS in his apartment doing basics that was in 1990. The guys in the backround are Dave Mike and Yes that's me.

This is why you can't a believe a single word about what is said about me,,, it's done with extreme prejudice.

By the way in 1990 I was 24


"http://www.youtube.com/v/Jq8u73wIktQ&rel

[Lama Pai Sifu]

actually you're wrong again........

because the very first time i ever saw those characters, i proved that you guys may be in the correct.

thats MY contribution.........

do me a favor, idk if its that NY thing, but do you always speak the way you do?

your tone makes me WANT to argue with YOU.

No Frank, anyone speaking in a different way than you are not agreeing with all that you say makes you WANT to argue with THEM.

The truth is Frank, all you do is argue - it's what you do best. Besides bragging...you are pretty good at that too. Always talking about your accident, your handicap, your lineage Fut San Hung Sing, Lau Bun, your book, your project, etc. etc.

You know it's funny, but for a guy who goes around saying Saam Sing Yat Ga, you sure don't practice what you preach. You fight with every CLF person on here at one time or another. Funny though, they don't seem to fight with each other...just you.

And just because you can smell something Frank..doesn't mean you have to eat it. Try taking that one to heart and maybe yours will be healthier.

[cjurakpt]

IWe don't care that in the PAST he used that name in RE to Chan Tai San, becasue we ALL did

But NOW, in the present, we all know it isn't correct, so from now on, in RE to CTS and his Pai, dont' say it is "green"

pretty simple, no?

that about sums it up - and the important thing to understand is that it has NOTHING to do with Gus per se - in other words, now that the truth is known, NO ONE should be using Green Cloud as relates to CTS; I mean, if someone who had nothing to do with CTS posted on their website that CTS's MA came from Green Cloud, and one of us corrected them on it, they would simply change it, no questions asked (and if they didn't change it, we'd justifiably be all over them about it); the only real problem is that Gus has his livelihood invested in the recognition of the name - I mean, he's free and clear about the "error" aspect - it wasn't his mistake, that's obvious; it's simply a matter of economics, and economics dictate that he keep the name; end of discussion

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Frank this is very thing I'm talking about. Everything that Dave sais about me is a lye for instance he tries to make you think that I didn't study with CTS till my 30's that's propostorous.

If you look at the vid of Sifu CTS in his apartment doing basics that was in 1990. The guys in the backround are Dave Mike and Yes that's me.

This is why you can't a believe a single word about what is said about me,,, it's done with extreme prejudice.

By the way in 1990 I was 24


"http://www.youtube.com/v/Jq8u73wIktQ&rel


This is a lie (that's the way it's spelled).

When has David said that? Please show us.

This is what you do; you throw out some dissinformation to try to gain some credibility. You were in the school with me in 1991, when did David try to refute that.

THIS IS A LIE. DAVID NEVER SAID THIS.

[lkfmdc]

This is from YOUR WEB SITE




Green Cloud has been around for several hundreds of years in Toisan China, producing many famous scholars, doctors, and Kung-Fu teachers, such as the famed Grandmaster Chan Tai-San, who is considered to be the foremost authority on Chinese Martial arts today. The revered master adopted a young American boy and passed down his lineage to the man we now call Sifu Kaparos. Sifu Kaparos has achieved Master ranking in this system and also holds 10 black belts in other systems of martial arts. The winner of several national titles and the feature of numerous national publications, Sifu Kaparos has been nominated to the Kung-Fu Hall of Fame. Sifu Kaparos is the head of Green Cloud in the U.S.



It is claims like this on your web site that bring the grief down on you, and you have no one but yourself to blame!

"The revered master adopted a young American boy and passed down his lineage to the man we now call Sifu Kaparos"

OK, assuming you were 24 and not 31 (like I thought), you were certainly no "young boy" when you met CTS! :rolleyes:

Again, your students go around telling people that you were an orphan raised by CTS! Are you going to say here that is true? I wonder where they got that story? hmmmmm? :rolleyes:

"Grandmaster Chan Tai-San, who is considered to be the foremost authority on Chinese Martial arts today"

Do you realize that putting up stuff like that is not only insulting to other teachers, teachers who were friends of CTS, but it makes us look like "Shaolin Do"? :rolleyes:

A respected sifu? YES. A recognized authority? YES. But your "hard sell" (and loose "facts") make the entire Pai look bad

"Sifu Kaparos has achieved Master ranking in this system and also holds 10 black belts in other systems of martial arts."

Do you want to yet again re-visit this issue? What 10 black belts do you hold and who gave them to you?

Please, show us what lies I've told about you? I've simply QUOTED your own web site

[cjurakpt]

Dave did just post above that Gus was in his 30's when he first me CTS; Gus states that he was 24;

I think that the original intent was to point our that Gus was not "raised" by CTS - so 30's, 20's - who really cares: if he was over 21 when he first met CTS, I think that qualifies as being "not raised"...

[lkfmdc]

Dave did just post above that Gus was in his 30's when he first me CTS; Gus states that he was 24;

I think that the original intent was to point our that Gus was not "raised" by CTS - so 30's, 20's - who really cares: if he was over 21 when he first met CTS, I think that qualifies as being "not raised"...

Exactly, I thought Gus was 31 when he met CTS... Gus says he was 24. Fine, I didn't exactly ask him for ID when we met.

The only real issue is that he was not "raised" by CTS since he was a "young boy"

Also, having met Gus' parents (nice people) I can state without question that he is not an orphan

[Green Cloud]

Frank, with respect, I think you are missing the point

No one is "going hard" on Gus for calling it Green Cloud, but for crying out loud, don't argue with us when we explain why it isn't really "green"

Since Gus never wanted to be bothered with learning any Chinese, as opposed to me who went to Graduate school to learn it, please don't try and argue with me about Chinese characters!

In all honesty, the real issues we have had with Gus are misrepresentations that have been perpetuated.

I've seen you go NUTS when a guy who is clearly a troll insults your sifu and lineage. Here we have a guy who is actually part of the tradition spreading mis-information

I have met students of Gus who have told me with a straight face that Gus was raised by CTS. Not only is Gus NOT an orphan, he met CTS when he was already in his 30's!

Pretty much all of CTS hing-dai get along just fine, and you don't see us pulling out the letters and red baai si books and laying the smack down because there is very little issue really inside the pai.....


Mike read the second to last paragraph, Dave sai I didn't meet CTS till I was in my 30's.

And in your video it say Chan Tai San performing basics in his brooklyn apartment in 1990.

Frank It's no use arguing with these guy, personaly I feel a Flame was bruing and you know what that means.

As Mr Ching has said before he will ban all of us. Flame On that's from Xmen.

[lkfmdc]

http://greencloudkungfu.com/academy/instructors.html




Sifu Gus Kaparos began his training at the age of 6 and is a direct disciple of Grandmaster Chan Tai San. He has instructor level ranking in over 10 styles of martial arts. It was this diverse background that allowed him to be a top student of the grandmaster. This 2 time full contact fighting champion met Si-Gung in the late 1980's. He began his training with Si-Gung and was indescribably impressed by this great teacher,



1. The implication is that you started studing with CTS at 6!

2. You met CTS in either late 1990 or early 1991. Even by your own admission. You were not withhim in the "1980's" (I have a letters and certificatdes statings I met CTS in 1986 by the way)

3. Again, re-visiting questionable claims, where were you a 2 time full contact champion? I find this interesting becasue both Steve Ventura and I were 2 time AAU full contact Taekwondo NY state champions....

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Mike read the second to last paragraph, Dave sai I didn't meet CTS till I was in my 30's.

And in your video it say Chan Tai San performing basics in his brooklyn apartment in 1990.

Frank It's no use arguing with these guy, personaly I feel a Flame was bruing and you know what that means.

As Mr Ching has said before he will ban all of us. Flame On that's from Xmen.

Dave made a mistake, but what he is referencing is correct; you were NOT raised by out teacher. That is untrue.

Oh...and "Flame On" is from the Fantasic Four...unless you want to argue that as well.

[Green Cloud]

Exactly, I thought Gus was 31 when he met CTS... Gus says he was 24. Fine, I didn't exactly ask him for ID when we met.

The only real issue is that he was not "raised" by CTS since he was a "young boy"

Also, having met Gus' parents (nice people) I can state without question that he is not an orphan

I can see how you thought I was 24 back then since I was a man and you were a boy and it seems that nothing has changed:rolleyes:

As far as being adopted we all were, it's called a ceremonial Bi See and yes I can see how that needs to be clarified.

[lkfmdc]

I strongly believe as long as we stick to FACTUAL discussions then Gene will have no issues

Especially if no one threatens to sue the forum....

[cjurakpt]

Mike read the second to last paragraph, Dave sai I didn't meet CTS till I was in my 30's.

And in your video it say Chan Tai San performing basics in his brooklyn apartment in 1990.

Frank It's no use arguing with these guy, personaly I feel a Flame was bruing and you know what that means.

As Mr Ching has said before he will ban all of us. Flame On that's from Xmen.

if you read the last few posts, the issue of your age was cleared up; clearly we all agree that you were the age you claim you were at that time; why do you keep protesting the point as if it had not been rectified?

[Green Cloud]

Dave made a mistake, but what he is referencing is correct; you were NOT raised by out teacher. That is untrue.

Oh...and "Flame On" is from the Fantasic Four...unless you want to argue that as well.

Flame on is Fantastic Four I stand corrected at least I know how old everyone is.

[lkfmdc]

I can see how you thought I was 24 back then since I was a man and you were a boy and it seems that nothing has changed:rolleyes:



Once again, corned in your own lies and confronted with facts you apparently have no defense but to throw out childish insults

again, refer to Ivan's page... clearly it is deceptive and infers you began training with sifu Chan at 6!

again, why do your students think you were RAISED by CTS?

and, again, do you call 24 a "young boy" :rolleyes:

[Lama Pai Sifu]

I can settle this as well. I introduced Gus to Chan Tai-San.

I did it in April of 1990. That is when Gus first met our Teacher, case closed. I was there, I was the one who brought him to CTS.



And if I'm correct, Dave first started training with CTS in 1986, I met Dave and was introduced to CTS in late 1988 and Chris began working out with Dave in NYU and then trained with Sifu in 1989/90?

Is that pretty much correct.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Flame on is Fantastic Four I stand corrected at least I know how old everyone is.

There have been two movies in the last 4 years...several million people have seen them. Don't try to imply that I am immature because I'm familiar with a term used in a popular movie. You are the one who tried to make a cute joke and messed it up. Don't blame me. See...this is exactly what you do; you cover up your own ignorance or mistakes by deflecting onto someone else.

Problem is, you are very transparent and you just assume that no one here actually reads anything.

You are the one who starts flame-wars. We are discussing facts. You are saying disparriging things to us. Just this morning, you've called us immature and liars. Look in the mirror; before serving a blame sandwhich, be ready to eat one yourself.

[Green Cloud]

http://greencloudkungfu.com/academy/instructors.html



1. The implication is that you started studing with CTS at 6!

2. You met CTS in either late 1990 or early 1991. Even by your own admission. You were not withhim in the "1980's" (I have a letters and certificatdes statings I met CTS in 1986 by the way)

3. Again, re-visiting questionable claims, where were you a 2 time full contact champion? I find this interesting becasue both Steve Ventura and I were 2 time AAU full contact Taekwondo NY state champions....

Dave that's not my web site:rolleyes: It's Ivans and there are a lot of mistakes and hasn't been updated.

Now are we going to continue this rant??? Personaly Frank is right about airing dirty laundry and it's also unprofessional. Maybe we can discuss this in person face to face, Man to man since unlike you I have a life and can't spend the rest of my day like you sorting out my insecure issues on a publick forum.

And speaking of being a man if you continue to bash my name and rep on this forum yes legal issues will arise since it seems dealing with you face to face like a man is not possible with a boy like you.:o

[lkfmdc]

You are the one who starts flame-wars. We are discussing facts. You are saying disparriging things to us. Just this morning, you've called us immature and liars. Look in the mirror; before serving a blame sandwhich, be ready to eat one yourself.



sadly, this is so correct that I needed to re-post it

[lkfmdc]

Maybe we can discuss this in person face to face, Man to man since unlike you I have a life and can't spend the rest of my day like you sorting out my insecure issues on a publick forum.

And speaking of being a man if you continue to bash my name and rep on this forum yes legal issues will arise since it seems dealing with you face to face like a man is not possible with a boy like you.:o

LMFAO, always the same.

When confronted with facts and unable to explain them away, you start to rant and rave and insult

Have you not yet learned that frothing at the mouth doesn't make the facts go away?

Have you not yet learned that frothing at the mouth doesn't impress anyone here

We are all already familiar with your ability to consult with lawyers (http://a602.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/110/l_32bc378d204be283843523302459c371.jpg)

I'm done with you, because you really aren't worth it. My last post to you, I'll probably put you on IGNORE, will be to suggest that before you try and take me to court you need to first remove MY COPYRIGHTED MATERIAL FROM YOUR WEB SITE

Ivan already did :rolleyes:

[cjurakpt]

the clock ticks as the moderator approaches with lock and key...

the point is, this whole thing started with comments made regarding the "linguistic drift" of the Lama Sahp Jih as presented by one of Gus' students; the observation by Mike, Dave and myself was that there were marked discrepancies in the form relative to the way it was originally taught

the counter arguments by Gus (and echoed by his student) were that there were mistakes made by the performer, that certain things were changed for tournament use, and then later that Gus has consciously evolved the form on his own

I think the point is this: our critique of the form is based on what we know about Gus personally having studied alongside CTS with him, his "study habits", his attention to detail / capacity to remember things, all things that were issues in the past, and that, correctly, should not be aired publicly; I think that part of what rankles us is that his presently propagated public persona (how's THAT for alliterative!) is at odds with what we have known to be otherwise - being there, we know the cracks in the armor;

however, and here's the important part, when Gus came on the forum last year and started expressing himself, even though we took issue with what we knew to be misrepresentations, WE SAID NOTHING PUBLICLY TO CONTRADICT HIM; it was not until he accused Dave of being a "sell out" (basically to enhance his image as a traditional Sifu in front of his other on-line kung-fu buddies) that we presented evidence that contradicted his claims; so now, there is no deference to anything that comes out of his camp;

[lkfmdc]

the clock ticks as the moderator approaches with lock and key...

the point is, this whole thing started with comments made regarding the "linguistic drift" of the Lama Sahp Jih as presented by one of Gus' students; the observation by Mike, Dave and myself was that there were marked discrepancies in the form relative to the way it was originally taught

the counter arguments by Gus (and echoed by his student) were that there were mistakes made by the performer, that certain things were changed for tournament use, and then later that Gus has consciously evolved the form on his own

I think the point is this: our critique of the form is based on what we know about Gus personally having studied alongside CTS with him, his "study habits", his attention to detail / capacity to remember things, all things that were issues in the past, and that, correctly, should not be aired publicly; I think that part of what rankles us is that his presently propagated public persona (how's THAT for alliterative!) is at odds with what we have known to be otherwise - being there, we know the cracks in the armor;

however, and here's the important part, when Gus came on the forum last year and started expressing himself, even though we took issue with what we knew to be misrepresentations, WE SAID NOTHING PUBLICLY TO CONTRADICT HIM; it was not until he accused Dave of being a "sell out" (basically to enhance his image as a traditional Sifu in front of his other on-line kung-fu buddies) that we presented evidence that contradicted his claims; so now, there is no deference to anything that comes out of his camp;

VISUAL REPRESENTATION OF ABOVE POST (http://ak.buy.com/db_assets/prod_lrg_images/317/200629317.jpg)

[omarthefish]

For what it's worth......even though the correct reading is "clear cloud", "green cloud" sounds way cooler. Better name. Down the road it will just be like one of those Taiji moves where the name changed because one of the lineage holders was somewhat illiterate and didn't know what character it was. Happens all the time. lol.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Dave that's not my web site:rolleyes: It's Ivans and there are a lot of mistakes and hasn't been updated.

Now are we going to continue this rant??? Personaly Frank is right about airing dirty laundry and it's also unprofessional. Maybe we can discuss this in person face to face, Man to man since unlike you I have a life and can't spend the rest of my day like you sorting out my insecure issues on a publick forum.

And speaking of being a man if you continue to bash my name and rep on this forum yes legal issues will arise since it seems dealing with you face to face like a man is not possible with a boy like you.:o

No one is insulting you or threatening you. No one is bashing your name or 'rep.' We are merely discussing verifyable facts. You have insulted Dave several times during these one post however; do you even realize the way you say things?

Gus, seriously, no one has insulted you. But look at what you keep writing here.

I wish you would just open your eyes a bit and look at this whole conversation from a different perspective.

And then you get off the forum, speak to one of us, or one of our students, and act like you never said these things or they don't really mean anything. How can you think like that?

These constant insults which you throw out...they push you further and further away from where you really want to be.

[GeneChing]

....when you guys learn to *ignore* each other. :rolleyes:

Please, no more PMs from any of you. I'm already hip to the *ignore* trip. Settle this on another forum. It's old news here.