Why UFC fighters don't use WCK

[nschmelzer]

I am often asked (usually by my wife): If WCK is so great - why don't ANY of the UFC fighters use it? After all, if it was an effective sytle/system - why isn't has'nt the UFC/MMA world discovered it or evolved into it?

My answer (and only my opinion) is that WCK is the UFC/MMA "for the rest of us." That is, I am in no condition to fight UFC/MMA. At 39, I am too old. Since I work all day, instead of train, my conditioning is not what it needs to be to fight. So for me, combat training is about mastering general principles - like, chin down, elbows in, control the center, try to stay in trapping range (not too close, not too far), don't move backwards, and other WCK maxim, etc. I believe in the WCK concepts of trapping range, elbow power, WCK body structure. If I end up on the ground, I would fight like hell to get off the ground using whatever I can (biting, fishing hooking, eye gouges, etc) (and break what I can while I am down there) - or hope a bouncer, friend, or stranger pulls the guy off me. I also train because I like the challenges of hard sparring in all ranges.

I do not train on the ground for several reasons: (1) no time; and (2) I have grappled with enough "grapplers" to feel comfortable that they do not have too much of an advantge over me. In other words, I prevail about 40-50% of the time given approximately equal size and strength. By "prevail" I mean I can avoid getting submitted or pounded, or I can get back up. Maybe training grappling would increase that to 50%+, but at what cost? On the other hand, training in WCK improves my stand-up significantly.

I am interested in other opinions to this question. (MMA trolls - please allow the WCK people to discuss this issue.)

[Ali. R]

I am often asked (usually by my wife): If WCK is so great - why don't ANY of the UFC fighters use it? After all, if it was an effective sytle/system - why isn't has'nt the UFC/MMA world discovered it or evolved into it?




I know, I know… Huh,, They might get their butt kicked? :);):D


Ali Rahim.

[k gledhill]

Theres more VT in the UFC than people know....the tactcal idea is attacking in aggresivley for a purpose of dominating the encounters duration with offense, but HOW ...is the hard part ...your fghting highly trained guys who arent stupid bulls so you have to be a bullfighter....the VT system is teaching how to deliver this and techniques to back up the thinking ..done in raw form we see what methods work better than others ...defend more or attack more ...whats a better percentage payback ?....we use strightlines to attack infront of us because we are going in at people using kicks to reach what a punch wont and not disrupt the forward flow with a round kick that might miss and leave our attack line stopped or round punch that isnt bad its just not feeding the forward attack as directly and if it misses what then ?....guys who throw a well timed x ko to a jaw ...finish ..they may not have an elbow idea or say i do VT but vt is trying to teach the exact mechanics and timing so its not a fluke or a lucky punch but the reason .....its the concept in action, no lables attached /school shirts or / names .....attack ? whats the best way to improve my attack ? how can i train to maintainy balance without giving upper body to counters? how do i deliver force from my arms without a winding up swing ? what if they try to strike me as I m attacking ? do i stop and let them attack me for a while :D

some see , some dont, some look for a way to use shapes for training, rather than use the shapes to develop an idea for attacking ...correctly.

[sihing]

In essence I believe that the UFC/MMA guys can't afford to take the time to learn what WC has to teach them. They have other methods at their disposal, that can produce similar result and that blend in better with the other facets of their MA training.

Regarding grappling, take a look at the recent loss of Alexander Houston, a pro MMA fighter, with MT and wrestling background, with two fights under his belt both won by KO. He lost to a grappler, and made some fundamental mistakes from what was said by the technical expert commentators. Things happen in a fight, and like you said, for us regular folk, it is near impossible to train in all things, all the time, and deal with the consequences of that (injuries, always workin out, training schedules, etc..). Plus IMO, ground grappling, once that range is secured, is easier to apply (unless of course your opponent is of equal skill), than stand up fighting. On the ground your mobility is lost, your ability to use your weight & leverage is lost as well as your limbs have a limited usage. Compare this to stand up fighting, where the other guy has no restrictions (unless you restrict him with what you do, but this is never as complete as when you are on the ground, since the ground itself is your ally) to the majority of his tools, and can always use distance (in the ring anyways) as a defence.



James

[Nick Forrer]

Some answers

1) Most wing chun is rubbish - unrealistic and wouldnt work for real...

e.g. this nonsense - look at how 'landing' a slap is more important than power and positioning

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=KyqmiV58o_8

2) Often no real power in strikes...no use of Body power (like boxers use)....mainly arm strikes (see above)

3) training in WC features too many cooperative drills and or chi sau and too little hard sparring

4) Any striking art needs to be trained with grappling to be effective in MMA

5) Boxing/Muay Thai are much more plug and play....A few basic tools (Although not saying they cant be sophisticated at higher levels) then hours of live training - to sharpen distance, timing, angulation etc. (all things chi sau doesnt give) Plus they dont have the power production problem most wing chun has.

[Nick Forrer]

My answer (and only my opinion) is that WCK is the UFC/MMA "for the rest of us." That is, I am in no condition to fight UFC/MMA. At 39, I am too old. Since I work all day, instead of train, my conditioning is not what it needs to be to fight.

Nonsense. My MMA coach is 64.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=doMMfE38h24&feature=related

Look at Kyle Maynard

He doesnt let his limitations stop him

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=J5R75GGUovg


Those sound like excuses not to train...not reasons

[sihing]

Theres more VT in the UFC than people know....the tactcal idea is attacking in aggresivley for a purpose of dominating the encounters duration with offense, but HOW ...is the hard part ...your fghting highly trained guys who arent stupid bulls so you have to be a bullfighter....the VT system is teaching how to deliver this and techniques to back up the thinking ..done in raw form we see what methods work better than others ...defend more or attack more ...whats a better percentage payback ?....we use strightlines to attack infront of us because we are going in at people using kicks to reach what a punch wont and not disrupt the forward flow with a round kick that might miss and leave our attack line stopped or round punch that isnt bad its just not feeding the forward attack as directly and if it misses what then ?....guys who throw a well timed x ko to a jaw ...finish ..they may not have an elbow idea or say i do VT but vt is trying to teach the exact mechanics and timing so its not a fluke or a lucky punch but the reason .....its the concept in action, no lables attached /school shirts or / names .....attack ? whats the best way to improve my attack ? how can i train to maintainy balance without giving upper body to counters? how do i deliver force from my arms without a winding up swing ? what if they try to strike me as I m attacking ? do i stop and let them attack me for a while :D

some see , some dont, some look for a way to use shapes for training, rather than use the shapes to develop an idea for attacking ...correctly.

Exactly, especially the last sentence, the shape is an IDEA not a specific action and something to be SEEN in a fight. Whether or not my palm is up, down, sideways or whatever, I can use tan concept (to spread) in all sorts of shapes. Technique minded people see shapes, those with better imaginations see it in all kinds of places. My footwork can have tan concept in it, but I am using my legs and body to do it. One thing is we still use chinese language to describe it. Some see chinese and right off the bat think it is hookie.

Gotta run....

J

[Nick Forrer]

If I end up on the ground, I would fight like hell to get off the ground using whatever I can (biting, fishing hooking, eye gouges, etc) (and break what I can while I am down there) - or hope a bouncer, friend, or stranger pulls the guy off me.


Or you could learn a technical escape based on leverage and positioning that doesnt involve trying to maim your assailant and which will in any event probably a) not work and b) really p i s s him off and make him want to escalate to something worse

Look if Helio Gracie can do it at 90 plus anyone can

[k gledhill]

chisao seung ma toi madrills deal with this angling and delivering force in the time of motion in on us as we angle offline to fdevelop the structured 'right x toa jaw' ....seen as wrist sticking it will never evolve but to be a better sticker , not a better striker ...:D

[sihing]

Nonsense. My MMA coach is 64.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=doMMfE38h24&feature=related

Look at Kyle Maynard

He doesnt let his limitations stop him

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=J5R75GGUovg


Those sound like excuses not to train...not reasons

I think nschmelzer was talking about the fact that at 39 and to start train in MMA might be too late, where as Morris has been doing it or something similar for decades now, a bit different to start something new, as compared to doing something for decades and keeping it going. I could be wrong though:)

I think Nick is right though, it is never to late to maybe try something out, just that you may have to watch that you don't maim or kill yourself in the process. For me, I hit the bag three times a week, and the weights another 3 x a week, plus WC trainging and teaching, that is good enough for me, never mind the guys here at the local MMA gym doin 8 to 13 workouts a week, that's not for me and I don't love it that much, lol.


James

[Nick Forrer]

I think nschmelzer was talking about the fact that at 39 and to start train in MMA might be too late, where as Morris has been doing it or something similar for decades now, a bit different to start something new, as compared to doing something for decades and keeping it going. I could be wrong though:)


The idea that your physical life is over at 39 is absurd. I used to train with a guy who had one leg...and he was in his 40s....and he had only been doing it for a few years.

I think you guys think MMA training is somehow life threatening. :rolleyes:Its like swimming - you dont throw someone in at the deep end who cant swim. You start them in the shallow end and work up progressively.

[Sihing73]

Hello,

MMA/UFC is a sport and does not translate to combat, I know a lot of people will not agree with this but hey, consider this: In a combat situation one person will most likley be facing multiple assailants often armed. When is the last time you saw a MMA\UFC fighter do this ;)

There is a big difference between MMA\UFC fighting and street combat, despite what some others have to say about it. While there is nothing wrong with being in excellent physical condition, most people who train in an art for self defence have neither the time nor the inclination to condition at the elite level. Also, most people who train for street combat are looking for the bascis which will enable them to survive. They are not looking to win a belt or the like.

Having watched a UFC match this weekend I will say I was not impressed by what I saw. I mean, honestly, if I can spend 5 minutes or more rolling around on the ground trying to make my opponent submit then I will be quite happy. Unfortunately, in a REAL fight if it takes me more than a few seconds or maybe a minute tops to stop my opponent then I am in trouble, especially if he brought along a few friends.

As to the question posed: IMHO, most MMA\UFC fighters do not learn to use WCK because the goal in these situations seems to be lets go to the ground and roll around for upwards of 6 minutes where I can wear you down so you finally submit. Seems to me such fights are less about skill and more about attrition.

Lets the flames begin :D

[sihing]

The idea that your physical life is over at 39 is absurd. I used to train with a guy who had one leg...and he was in his 40s....and he had only been doing it for a few years.

I think you guys think MMA training is somehow life threatening. :rolleyes:Its like swimming - you dont throw someone in at the deep end who cant swim. You start them in the shallow end and work up progressively.

I'm turning 39 tomorrow, and I feel in better shape now than ever before, but the recovery time is not as good. So for me life is not over, lol. But I'd rather use my mind and efficiency more in a fight than to let my attributes (however good or bad they are) be the deciding factor. Fighting always involves your body, and the better conditioned it is the better it will perform, no disputing that. Just that to me, I see the MMA guys relying more on that than the skill of fighting at times. Ali had better skills than most of his opponents, that why we remember him, but he had to be in shape to box with them of course.

James

[mantisdisciple4]

I am glad someone has started this thread. Personally, I do not practice the art of Wing Tsun, but I respect its effectiveness and do plan to practice it in the future. (I have been practicing my main martial art for several years, and wish to get a very good grasp of it before I move on or add anything else).

First let me start by saying that I have trained with UFC fighters before, and have MUCH respect for what they do. The ones that get to the top are very tough guys, and can whip most.

However, I have run into traditional Martial Artists that are absolutely devastating in their art, and they don't get the respect they are due.

I truly think that MMA is one sided because everyone sees it out there on a regular. I think that it is effective, but it's not the be all to end all.

People were using Wing Tsun, Karate, Muy Thai and other deadly Martial arts in death fights long before the sanctioned MMA fights in UFC. Also, people forget, that in the beginning, the UFC was mostly traditional, and was far more no-holds bar. During that time, you were more apt to see how effective certain styles were against one another.

Now, since more rules have been added, you seel less traditional martial artist, and more martial artist, who are trained to fight in a way that meets the standards an rules of the UFC. People seem to forget this when they are watching it.

I have worked with and seen many incredible martial artist from all walks of the life, and I think that it is foolish for anyone to down one martial art over another. A person who has fought enough experienced fighter would know this.

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[sanjuro_ronin]

The idea that your physical life is over at 39 is absurd. I used to train with a guy who had one leg...and he was in his 40s....and he had only been doing it for a few years.

I think you guys think MMA training is somehow life threatening. :rolleyes:Its like swimming - you dont throw someone in at the deep end who cant swim. You start them in the shallow end and work up progressively.

I retired from COMPETITION at 31.
Quite happy to do it too, family being far more important than COMPETITION.
I train every day, usually twice a day, once only on the weekends.
I think he was referring that at 38, he is "too old" to devote his time to COMPETITION.
Training is one thing, competition is another.

[YungChun]

chisao seung ma toi madrills deal with this angling and delivering force in the time of motion in on us as we angle offline to fdevelop the structured 'right x toa jaw' ....seen as wrist sticking it will never evolve but to be a better sticker , not a better striker ...:D
BINGO...

Makes you wonder doesn't it, when we hear this isn't incuded..???:o:(:eek:

[monji112000]

2) Often no real power in strikes...no use of Body power (like boxers use)....mainly arm strikes



You think all Wing Chun people punch without using the whole body? The problem is most people only learn how to throw one punch and they don't even learn how to throw it correctly or how to use it in combination. A proper Wing Chun Jab or arrow punch looks almost identical to a boxers power jab. A wing Chun cross or straight punch also looks very similar to a boxers cross. Its not something people just created after watching the UFC, its techniques that have been taught. Maybe not to some people for whatever reason.

Another example is the push kick in MT, we have it and it looks almost identical aswell. BUT, you won't see anyone use it correctly on the web. They put no force, or hip motion in they just pick thier leg up and pray that will do something.

We have a sidekick that looks in some ways similar to a mma sidekick. We have knees also.. but then again nobody on the web puts power into them. If you don't put your hip into it ect.. no power.

We generate power just like everyone else, the problem is people don't learn or understand this. Its like me saying I know everything about BJJ... yah ok who is dumb enough to believe that?

The problem why you will not see Wing Chun mixed that much into any MMA skill set is our footwork is too odd. We switch legs, twist, move our feet way too much for the average person. We have some technqiues that a few people have added that trained with Wing Chun. One technique that I hear about was added by a few a MT fighters (nameless unknown fighters) was (can't remember Chinese name).. its basically translated into two powers going same direction. I am not proficient at the technique but its been done on me in sparring a few times. I believe strongly that our shin attacks could be used very effectively in mma. I have seen a few mma guys in fights use a MT round kick in a similar fashion that we use our round kick.

The fact is MT/BJJ are the easiest combinations to quickly become a good MMA fighter.

people train with cooperation and people don't. If I never roll in BJJ class isn't that called training only cooperatively? When I free chi sao nobody lets me do anything. When we do sparring nobody lets me do anything. (If they did I wouldn't come home so banged up).

MT is just more suited for this environment. Any fighting style is going to really "look" like any other. Why? how many ways can you really punch? you must twist somewhere right?

no question about it the guys that fight in pro MMA are amazing fighters. You have to be crazy to want that type of life.

[anerlich]

Fighters from my WC school have had regular and recent successes in MMA at intermediate level shows. Our WC school got several gold and silver medals at a state BJJ comp, and one of our instructors won the LH Machado Nationals in BJJ and is currently undefeated in MMA (6-0-0, IIRC).

Maybe your WC don't work in MMA, but don't extrapolate that out to include everyone, please.

And yeah, at 52, LMAO to anyone at 39 who thinks he's too old to train MMA. You're not likely to get to Pride or the UFC if you start now, but suggesting you're too old to train in MMA or BJJ is ridiculous.

I've done various MA's since I was 22, but didn't start WC until I was 35, BJJ until I was 46. I have a family and have worked in IT full time all my life.

I don't regard myself as special. If you're "too old" at 39, you might be special, but not in a good way.

[Knifefighter]

Some answers

1) Most wing chun is rubbish - unrealistic and wouldnt work for real...

e.g. this nonsense - look at how 'landing' a slap is more important than power and positioning

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=KyqmiV58o_8

2) Often no real power in strikes...no use of Body power (like boxers use)....mainly arm strikes (see above)

3) training in WC features too many cooperative drills and or chi sau and too little hard sparring

4) Any striking art needs to be trained with grappling to be effective in MMA

5) Boxing/Muay Thai are much more plug and play....A few basic tools (Although not .


Yep... that pretty much sums it up. Good post.

[Knifefighter]

My answer (and only my opinion) is that WCK is the UFC/MMA "for the rest of us."

Don't kid yourself... WC is not even close to MMA.

MMA "for the rest of us" is the same MMA that the pros do, only not at that level.

[Wayfaring]

I am often asked (usually by my wife): If WCK is so great - why don't ANY of the UFC fighters use it? After all, if it was an effective sytle/system - why isn't has'nt the UFC/MMA world discovered it or evolved into it?


Well in UFC 5 a guy named Asbel Cancio fought who said he was from Ving Tsun. He got beat in 21 seconds by Dave Beneteau. He got taken down, mounted, and pounded into a TKO very quickly.

That event might have dampened any desire to state a WCK background that fighters have.

[Knifefighter]

In essence I believe that the UFC/MMA guys can't afford to take the time to learn what WC has to teach them.

If you had something that was proven to be highly effective and made some of the other things obsolete, you'd better believe that just about every MMA fighter would take as much time as was needed to learn this.

[Knifefighter]

MMA/UFC is a sport and does not translate to combat, I know a lot of people will not agree with this but hey, consider this: In a combat situation one person will most likley be facing multiple assailants often armed. When is the last time you saw a MMA\UFC fighter do this ;)

Of course this begs the question, how many WC guys fight full contact against multiple, armed opponents?

MMA translates much closer to real combat than does chi sao, forms and wooden dummy work.

MMA training is the perfect format for training for multiple opponents and weapons. Same training, just throw in more variables, which is exactly what the Dog Brothers approach does.

[Wayfaring]

Having watched a UFC match this weekend I will say I was not impressed by what I saw. I mean, honestly, if I can spend 5 minutes or more rolling around on the ground trying to make my opponent submit then I will be quite happy. Unfortunately, in a REAL fight if it takes me more than a few seconds or maybe a minute tops to stop my opponent then I am in trouble, especially if he brought along a few friends.

UFC 78 was about as exciting as watching continental drift. There were a couple of exceptions, like Joe Lauzon's fight and seeing Houston "We Have A Problem" Alexander unable to escape mount after his past 2 Tank Abbot like aggressive wins.

[Knifefighter]

You think all Wing Chun people punch without using the whole body? The problem is most people only learn how to throw one punch and they don't even learn how to throw it correctly or how to use it in combination. A proper Wing Chun Jab or arrow punch looks almost identical to a boxers power jab. A wing Chun cross or straight punch also looks very similar to a boxers cross. Its not something people just created after watching the UFC, its techniques that have been taught. Maybe not to some people for whatever reason.

Another example is the push kick in MT, we have it and it looks almost identical aswell. BUT, you won't see anyone use it correctly on the web. They put no force, or hip motion in they just pick thier leg up and pray that will do something.

We have a sidekick that looks in some ways similar to a mma sidekick. We have knees also.. but then again nobody on the web puts power into them. If you don't put your hip into it ect.. no power..

So why is it that you can see so many people from BJJ, wrestlng, Muay Thai, boxing and judo doing their techniques "correctly on the web", but not the WC guy?

Think it might have something to do with inefficient training methods?

[Sihing73]

Of course this begs the question, how many WC guys fight full contact against multiple, armed opponents?

MMA translates much closer to real combat than does chi sao, forms and wooden dummy work.

MMA training is the perfect format for training for multiple opponents and weapons. Same training, just throw in more variables, which is exactly what the Dog Brothers approach does.

Hi Dale,

Well, the training is there and is practiced by some. For example while with LT's group we used to train to fight out of a corner against three opponents. Of course the main object was to get out of the corner and get away. Still, imagine if I had opted to shoot one of my opponents and roll around on the ground for several minutes. What do you think his two buddies would be doing? Where's the fantasy now???

You make a good point about training methods but you miss the fact that MMA fighting is not the same as street combat. Again, consider what combat is then tell me if you really want to go to the ground.....if you do then tell me how many REAL fights you have had then we'll talk about fantasy fighters.

[Sihing73]

So why is it that you can see so many people from BJJ, wrestlng, Muay Thai, boxing and judo doing their techniques "correctly on the web", but not the WC guy?

Think it might have something to do with inefficient training methods?

Hi Dale,

Correctly according to who??? Even when someone points out a WC technique you seem to find an excuse not to recognize it :rolleyes:

[Knifefighter]

Hi Dale,

Correctly according to who??? Even when someone points out a WC technique you seem to find an excuse not to recognize it :rolleyes:

According to the poster I quoted.

[Knifefighter]

You make a good point about training methods but you miss the fact that MMA fighting is not the same as street combat. Again, consider what combat is then tell me if you really want to go to the ground.....if you do then tell me how many REAL fights you have had then we'll talk about fantasy fighters.

I don't remember anybody saying MMA was the same as street fighting. It is, however, closer than doing chi sao.

As far as going to the ground, that completely depends on the situation. As a BJJ black belt and a 30 + year grappler, of course I want to go to the ground against a single opponent.

If multiple opponents are involved, of course I dont' want to take it to the ground. However, I may not have a choice. If a fight does end up there, who do you think will have a better chance, the MMA fighter who spends at least half his time training there or the WC guy who is completely clueless?

[ittokaos]

Well, my "2 cents " on this is the fact that MMA don't want to learn WC because they dont care about a different style or they think it is too hard to learn how to use effectively. If they did they could use those hrs of training to learn the basic principles of WC.

It's not too hard if you are focused and want to learn. The principles (if explained and shown correctly) are pretty easy to grasp. I started to kinda get it with the first lesson. True, it is something that will take a lifetime to truly understand but a basic knowlegde will keep you alive.

Also, it is not something that someone has been successful with in the ring. All (maybe not all)UFC/MMA guys pick their style based on what they have seen that works. Untill they see it, they probably wont budge nor will they take the time to actually try to see if it works. While there are those with minds open enough to try, the majority of bandwagon jumpers wont. UFC/MMA is built upon the bandwagon jumpers. Without them BJJ wouldn't be nearly as popular and without them WC may never be used in the ring as much.

[Sihing73]

I don't remember anybody saying MMA was the same as street fighting. It is, however, closer than doing chi sao.

As far as going to the ground, that completely depends on the situation. As a BJJ black belt and a 30 + year grappler, of course I want to go to the ground against a single opponent.

If multiple opponents are involved, of course I dont' want to take it to the ground. However, I many not have a choice. If taken there, who do you think will have a better chance, the MMA fighter who spends at least half his time training there or the WC guy who is completely clueless?

Hi Dale,

Perhaps I missunderstood all of your previous posts. I thought that you were equating MMA fighting to be like street combat. Now you say it is closer than Chi Sau, however Chi Sau is not fighting but attribute training. If you wanted to compare fighting methods perhaps you should visit a school and observe, or take part in a Lat Sau program. This would be more akin to fighting and would utilize the ATTRIBUTES trained in Chi Sau. I'll bet you will find more realistic training then in the MMA gym. Againk you will or could see training against multiple opponents, weapons etc. Please tell me the last time you saw a MMA fighter training to defend against a knife or club attack?????

In a real street combat situation please tell me when multiple opponents ARE not involved, or when weapons are not involved. But, I am glad you admit that going to the ground in such a situation would not be preferable. As to whether the MMA fighter or a WC guy would be better off I would say the WC guy is better off as he will be trying to get to his feet as quickly as possible so as to avoid the other assailants stomping him or worse. Of course, I guess the MMA guy could curl into the fetal position until the ref stops match :D

[Liddel]

I agree with Nicks post -

But more importantly IMO and probably as a direct result of 'the training itself'.

Its the People attracted to a particular style.

Generalising here - but IME its more often the case - the body and personallity types of individuals draw them towards certain styles.

Im yet to meet muscle bound agro types that have had an interest in VT. My mates that fit into that group have gone for CQB, TKB, MMA etc.

Conversly VT been much more step by step, softer appraoch type training, draws those that dont have what we call down in old NZ the 'Mungrel' in them.....
We find small'er' body types, people looking to intellectualise the physical as well as mix it up 'a bit'. :p

Im generilsing here, but you get the rough idea. Which is why i believe we dont see VT stylists with ground games in MMA...

The majority are looking for skills for personal protection over competition.....which changes what you can get away with drastically IMO.

DREW

[Phil Redmond]

I agree with Nicks post -

But more importantly IMO and probably as a direct result of 'the training itself'.

Its the People attracted to a particular style.

Generalising here - but IME its more often the case - the body and personallity types of individuals draw them towards certain styles.

Im yet to meet muscle bound agro types that have had an interest in VT. My mates that fit into that group have gone for CQB, TKB, MMA etc.

Conversly VT been much more step by step, softer appraoch type training, draws those that dont have what we call down in old NZ the 'Mungrel' in them.....
We find small'er' body types, people looking to intellectualise the physical as well as mix it up 'a bit'. :p

Im generilsing here, but you get the rough idea. Which is why i believe we dont see VT stylists with ground games in MMA...

The majority are looking for skills for personal protection over competition.....which changes what you can get away with drastically IMO.

DREW
Liddel, I've often thought the same thing about the people attracted to WC. I consider myself a martial artist who happens to do WC. Which means I don't discount the other arts out there. A warrior should be familiar with varied weapons. We had to be familiar with AK 47s and AK 50s in Vietnam just in case you needed to fire one to save yourself. I wouldn't discount the Communist AK just because it wasn't a NATO weapon.

[anerlich]

Drew and Phil make good points.

[monji112000]

So why is it that you can see so many people from BJJ, wrestlng, Muay Thai, boxing and judo doing their techniques "correctly on the web", but not the WC guy?

Think it might have something to do with inefficient training methods?

Its not 1 specific thing. First off I will give modern sports their due, they have allot of great methods for training techniques. their pad work, and various equipment/drills are very effective. If I was training people you can bet money I would be using any drill or training method I thought would help. I don't care who created it, if It can help coordination, timing ect.. I'm always interested in learning.

With MT, Wrestling, boxing ect.. everyone knows the techniques and everyone constantly tests the techniques to see if things are wrong. A person could go to a boxing gym and learn most of the techniques if a few classes. Then all the rest is application. The people that are natural fighters flock to these styles because 1) they are more suited for MMA/MT/Sanda ect.. they don't have complicated techniques, and they focus heavily on conditioning. Short training time with a natural fighter normally creates a good fighter FAST.
2) they see all the major fighters train these arts so why train some goofy looking TMA? Don't tell me you haven't met a TMA who could fight?Maybe they wouldn't win a MMA fight, but some TMA people do win fights on the street. TMA don't attract those types of people (natural fighters). TMA attract skinny geeky nerds mostly. People who watch movies and think life resembles what they see. Or people who look for other benefits in martial arts. Again fighting isn't everyone's goal (they should be honest about it though).
3)TMA martial arts have a ego problem, they refuse to admit when they are flawed. doing forms all day is great but it doesn't do much to help you win a fight. Chi sao is wonderful but again its not fighting. The way most people do chi sao.. just isn't productive anyway.

With Wing Chun and allot of Kung Fu its really one or two people(out of many many people) who figure out how to fight with the “style”. Normally by going around fighting allot of people and training with ah few teachers. Kung Fu got a big clamp by the Chinese government. MT and boxing didn't. MT and Boxing are both looked at in a way as a national pride. I know that baseball is our national past time, but boxing has its place in our history. Its almost like Sanda is starting slowly to be that way.

Not allot of people learned to fight with Wing Chun. The people who didn't were not going out and testing their techniques. Maybe they didn't want to be fighters( I don't). So they focused on other aspects of the art. The people who did learned to fight trained with lots of people. Those people are few and far between. Those people competed in amateur boxing, kick boxing, and some mma.

MT/boxing/Sub wrestling breeds fighters. Any TMA that wants to breed a fighter is going to need to take some notes. Fighters need to be tough, fast, good timing, strong ect.. those are the attributes that most MT, boxing, submission wrestling schools train. How many TMA schools really work on those skills?

[Phil Redmond]

Drew and Phil make good points.
thx, I'll be starting a Judo class next Saturday. Knowledge is power. ;)

[monji112000]

I don't remember anybody saying MMA was the same as street fighting. It is, however, closer than doing chi sao.

playing chi sao is like playing chess or Go. These games help in many ways but without proper training through drills and sparring you aren't going to see much. What the ---- is lat sao? Is that free chi sao... again chi sao isn't fighting.

[Knifefighter]

Please tell me the last time you saw a MMA fighter training to defend against a knife or club attack?????

Saturday.


In a real street combat situation please tell me when multiple opponents ARE not involved, or when weapons are not involved.

How many fights have you been in in your life? How many were agaisnt one person and how many were you against a group of guys with weapons?

[Liddel]

Liddel, I've often thought the same thing about the people attracted to WC.

Its a strange thing - ive seen guys, big guys in hieght & weight whos elbows dont even know the other exists doing VT :eek:

Then i think to myself - man if i had his body type id probably get into a full contact hard style right off the bat...

I do VT because its great for me not because i have the idea its the greatest !

:rolleyes:
Food for thought
DREW

[Liddel]

Saturday.

When i read Daves question - i was waiting for this answer LOL.

Its like people that say Grapplings good in the ring but lacks in the street without realising all the collar chokes etc added leverage you get against an opponent wearing clothes :rolleyes:

Theres positives and negitives to any sit IMO.

Im no grappler and even i get that.

DREW

[MSphinx]

Well, my "2 cents " on this is the fact that MMA don't want to learn WC because they dont care about a different style or they think it is too hard to learn how to use effectively. If they did they could use those hrs of training to learn the basic principles of WC.

It really annoys me whenever someone says this. "They think it is too hard to learn", or "they don't care about different styles"... my eyes, they are rolling.

As was previously stated by Knifefighter, if Wing Chun or any other art had techniques that are proven to be highly effective and made some of the other things obsolete, every truly competitive MMA fighter would learn it to get an edge.


It's not too hard if you are focused and want to learn. The principles (if explained and shown correctly) are pretty easy to grasp. I started to kinda get it with the first lesson. True, it is something that will take a lifetime to truly understand but a basic knowlegde will keep you alive.

Compared to say, BJJ, where it takes approximately (http://www.bcbjj.org/page/page/3247053.htm#61040) 1 to 1.5 years to get a blue belt, another 3 years to purple belt, 3 years from purple to brown belt, and then another 3-5 years to gain a black belt.

People who consider their art too complex for MMA fighters to learn are seriously underestimating the commitment of those individuals.


Also, it is not something that someone has been successful with in the ring. All (maybe not all)UFC/MMA guys pick their style based on what they have seen that works. Untill they see it, they probably wont budge nor will they take the time to actually try to see if it works. While there are those with minds open enough to try, the majority of bandwagon jumpers wont. UFC/MMA is built upon the bandwagon jumpers. Without them BJJ wouldn't be nearly as popular and without them WC may never be used in the ring as much.

The easiest solution to this is for a talented WC fighter to try their style in the ring. There's nothing stopping anyone.

[LoneTiger108]

Why not? Because the current trends dictate the way we all 'want' to learn. And unfortunately for the Wing chun Sifu everybody wants to learn how to fight in cages for fame and glory. Not exactly what Wing Chun is here for is it?

Its a sad time for the 'Artists' of the Martial Art world IMO

[Knifefighter]

Why not? Because the current trends dictate the way we all 'want' to learn. And unfortunately for the Wing chun Sifu everybody wants to learn how to fight in cages for fame and glory. Not exactly what Wing Chun is here for is it?

No, what they want are effective methods... and these days it is hard to pull the wool over people's faces by showing them some B.S. demos, having them do forms and chi sao and telling them if they just keep doing those things over and over, somehwhere down the road they will become good like some grandmaster who was never really that good in the first place.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Its funny that people mention that WC is a system the needs "time" because I recall reading how it was created to be a "shorter learning curve" than the typical kung fu systems of the time.

[LoneTiger108]

No, what they want are effective methods... and these days it is hard to pull the wool over people's faces by showing them some B.S. demos, having them do forms and chi sao and telling them if they just keep doing those things over and over, somehwhere down the road they will become good like some grandmaster who was never really that good in the first place.

Point taken knifefighter.

The only thing I feel you're missing in this deluded picture of yours, yet again, is that there were and still are people out there who have these 'effective methods' you're so keen on as that is what Wing Chun is at its core.

I'm just soooooooo glad I didn't learn my Wing Chun from the charlatan you've obviously met...

[LoneTiger108]

Its funny that people mention that WC is a system the needs "time" because I recall reading how it was created to be a "shorter learning curve" than the typical kung fu systems of the time.

Very true Sanjuro. How good is your Chinese?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Very true Sanjuro. How good is your Chinese?

Non-existent, but I can imitate pretty well a ****ed off cantonese female brothel owner !
Don't ask...

[sihing]

Its funny that people mention that WC is a system the needs "time" because I recall reading how it was created to be a "shorter learning curve" than the typical kung fu systems of the time.

I think compared to other KF systems it is, from what I understand the standard time to learn most systems of KF is or was 10-15yrs, with WC you could cut that down to 4 or 5 to learn the complete system. At least in the old country. I've heard the same about Japanese MA, in Japan, but I can't confirm that.

IMO it all depends on how it is taught, how much time the individual wants to put into his training, and how intense/hard he wants to train. For example, when I was in LA training at Sifu Lam's people would come in to test him out and he would first set him up with one on his level 1 students, usually the level 1 guys would do the job, only to behold that his time in was 3 months. 3 months down there is like a year anywhere else, just due to the fact that you are training 4 to 5 hrs a day, and have the man right there to answer all your questions and people are motivated because they want to learn all they can to take it home with them.

IMO, I believe that WC is not the easiest MA learn, simply due to it's reprogramming of the body in most people, but I have had fast learning students that pick up on it like they were born to do it.

Time in is all relative and really doesn't mean much, only personal experience with each individual does.

James

[nschmelzer]

No, what they want are effective methods... and these days it is hard to pull the wool over people's faces by showing them some B.S. demos, having them do forms and chi sao and telling them if they just keep doing those things over and over, somehwhere down the road they will become good like some grandmaster who was never really that good in the first place.

I have never heard a WC master or instructor tell people that doing forms and chi sao will make them "good." Apparently you have heard it (although I doubt you have actually heard it). It is more likely that this is merely your perception of what the WC master is telling people - probably because you are not listening. Many people on this forum sound like people that hate religion so much that they only "hear" things/facts that validate their world view and hatred of religion. Many people on this forum have made up their minds on WCK - and only hear things that validate that opinion. Or worse, they distort the facts to fit their opinion. For example, a WCK master may say: "Doing forms and chi sao are valuable training activities." However, these people hear: "If you do forms and chi sao, you will be good at WCK." Then they go on forums and say: "WCK masters are telling people that they can kick a$$ if they do forms and chi sao." In other words, many WCK critics on this forum distort reality (what the WCK master may have actually said) because they were not really listening and/or their perception was affected by their bias (like a man-hating woman, or rabid atheist). Even worse, these people then go around maligning WCK masters & lineages by spouting off their distorted perception as fact. This is probably why WCK is not suitable for children.

[Sihing73]

Saturday.



How many fights have you been in in your life? How many were agaisnt one person and how many were you against a group of guys with weapons?

Hi Dale,

As per your pattern: please post a video so all can see :p

I try to avoid fights as much as possible but I have been in quite a number. In my youth I was not as wise as I am now. I have been shot three times, twice while wearing a vest so maybe they don't count. I have been stabbed several times and have ths scars to prove it. Some of this was job related while working as a Police Officer or in a Correctional Facility. Probably the worst beating I ever took was at the hand of several people using bicycle chains, that hurt. I have also been hit in the head with a 40 bottle in a bar. Now I am not saying that I won all of my "fights" but I am still here so that should say something.

Dale, I am not in any way trying to show that I am tough, I am not, I am a WIMP I try to run away if the opportunity presents itself. When I teach I tell my students that I CHEAT and I do. Now I may not be a MMA fighter nor in the best shape, but I have fought for real against people trying to hurt me badly or take my life. So while I may, in some eyes be a fantasy theoritical fighter, I feel that I may have some small inkling of what it takes to survive on the street and I try to pass that on to the AVERAGE person who has neither the time nor inclination to become the next MMA Champion.

Please do not presume to tell me that my WC will not work on the street. I am 43 years old and while I am not the same person I was when I began my training I have been in situations where it allowed me to survive and still be here. However, a lot of survival on the street depends on ones mental attitude and the willingness to keep going no matter what.

So now Dale, how many Real Fights have yoiu been in, how many scars do you have, not from training, but from application?

[jesper]

Liddel, I've often thought the same thing about the people attracted to WC. I consider myself a martial artist who happens to do WC. Which means I don't discount the other arts out there. A warrior should be familiar with varied weapons. We had to be familiar with AK 47s and AK 50s in Vietnam just in case you needed to fire one to save yourself. I wouldn't discount the Communist AK just because it wasn't a NATO weapon.

Maybe because it was a better weapon for jungle fighting then most nato rifles of that time :D

[Chango]

[QUOTE][Maybe because it was a better weapon for jungle fighting then most nato rifles of that time /QUOTE]

Plus because of the loose design it would fire a nato round and the AK round could not be used in the nato firearm! They say even a rusted beat up AK will fire if you can get a round chambered!
:D

[Knifefighter]

Please do not presume to tell me that my WC will not work on the street.

Please do not presume to tell me that "rolling on the ground" will not work on the street.

As someone who formerly worked in law enforcement, I'm pretty surprised you don't see the value of ground work.



So now Dale, how many Real Fights have yoiu been in, how many scars do you have, not from training, but from application?

Too many to count and a few scars.

[Knifefighter]

I'm just soooooooo glad I didn't learn my Wing Chun from the charlatan you've obviously met...

Then why would it be unfortunate for you that people want to use their WC to fight in a cage? If you did not learn from a charlaton and are not one yourself, what you are teaching should also be viable for their cage fighting.

[Sihing73]

Please do not presume to tell me that "rolling on the ground" will not work on the street.

Too many to count and a few scars.

Hi Dale,

If you honeslty want to roll on the ground in a real street combat situation then please feel free to do so. If you do that and there is more than one person then I doubt we will have the privilege of your posts. If your lucky we can send flowers to the hospital and wish you a speedy recovery. If your not lucky, what would you like on your headstone :(.

I tell you what, you live in LA, right? Take a walk down to one of your local gangbangers areas and see if you get attacked, then, if you survive, tell us how many attackers there were and whether or not you opted to shoot and take them to the ground. Then let us know what happened to you, again if you live, while you were on the ground with that one guy. I am sure his friends would all stand around in awe of your awesome BJJ skills and just part and let you walk away afterwards :D Go do this and then come back here and tell everyone how our approach is Fantasy based.

Hopefully, you would not be stupid enough to try this, but I think you may get the point. A real combat situation is nothing to look for, as it will most likely involve more than one, possibly armed attacker and you have already admitted that you would not want to go to the ground in such an instance. So, why do you keep trying to act like BJJ is the ultimate method of street combat???:confused:

[Knifefighter]

So, why do you keep trying to act like BJJ is the ultimate method of street combat???:confused:

LOL... anyone who truly has street (and law enforcement) experience knows that sometimes things are done on the ground and sometimes they are done standing. Whether you get the job done standing or on the ground is situationally dependent on things that are sometimes under your control and sometimes not.

[Sihing73]

LOL... anyone who truly has street (and law enforcement) experience knows that sometimes things are done on the ground and sometimes they are done standing. Whether you get the job done standing or on the ground is situationally dependent on things that are sometimes under your control and sometimes not.

Hello Dale,

LOL, you are as always correct in your assumptions, I have no real life experience and got all my training via video games. In this maybe we are much alike :D

Granted that there are times when the s*** hits the fan and everything goes bad. In such a situation you may indeed end up on the ground rolling around with your opponent. I am not saying that does not happen. But, I would strive to get to my feet as quickly as possible.

What I am saying is that anyone who advocates going to the ground as their fighting method of choice in a Real Life Combat situation has no idea of the reality of combat and has not been in very many REAL Fights. Again most street combat situaitons involve multiple attackers and weapons. Shoot, even schoolyards have multiple armed attackers these days.

I like the way one of my training partners described things:

A bar fight is not one on one, it is several on one. And the multiple attackers are not in combat, they are in a** kicking mode. It is the one guy fighting everyone else who is in combat, not self defense combat. Now I guess you would say this one guy needs to roll on the ground with one guy while everyone else watches. Hey maybe in Dale "Knifefighters" real world combat situations the opponents take turns, maybe they tap like on WWF and come at you one at a time :rolleyes:

So Dale, how many bar fights have you been in which involved only one opponent and which you took them to the ground and made them submit??

[anerlich]

Please tell me the last time you saw a MMA fighter training to defend against a knife or club attack?????

Both the BJJ black belts where I train, both of whom have fought MMA professionally, also hold black belts in and regularly teach Arnis. Except maybe for Raymond Floro and David Crook, they are about the last two guys in Australia I'd want to try an impact or edged weapon assault on.

AS for WC being "too complex for these MMA meatheads to pick up", BJJ is MUCH more complex than WC. And as another poster suggested, it takes a LONG time and serious commitment to reach full instructor level. BJJ is NOT a shortcut.


I consider myself a martial artist who happens to do WC. Which means I don't discount the other arts out there.

Very sensible attitude IMO.

[t_niehoff]

Hello Dale,

LOL, you are as always correct in your assumptions, I have no real life experience and got all my training via video games. In this maybe we are much alike :D

Granted that there are times when the s*** hits the fan and everything goes bad. In such a situation you may indeed end up on the ground rolling around with your opponent. I am not saying that does not happen. But, I would strive to get to my feet as quickly as possible.

That sounds great -- but your ability to do that will depend on your training. In other words, how good your ground game is. Regardless of what you want to do or don't want to do, your ability to do it will rest on your skill level (and overall attributes).

One drill we do here is to start from a bottom position or guard and try to get up while the other guy just tries to keep you on the ground -- and does everything they can to keep you there. It's not easy (it takes some good skills and lots of conditioniing!). Especially against someone who has some ground skills and knows what is going on.



What I am saying is that anyone who advocates going to the ground as their fighting method of choice in a Real Life Combat situation has no idea of the reality of combat and has not been in very many REAL Fights. Again most street combat situaitons involve multiple attackers and weapons. Shoot, even schoolyards have multiple armed attackers these days.


This is fantasy.

I don't want to get into a streetfight at all. But if it happens, my best chance at being able to deal with that situation is to have competant, realistic fighting skills in stand-up, clinch, and ground.

I must ask WTF is "street combat"? The reality is if you are atacked on the street and your assailant has a weapon, you're f#cked. If your assailant has firends, your f#cked. I'm not saying that you can't get lucky -- or that you may not manage to escape, but the situation is dire. You're not going to beat competant multiple opponents or someone competant with a weapon if you are unarmed.



I like the way one of my training partners described things:

A bar fight is not one on one, it is several on one. And the multiple attackers are not in combat, they are in a** kicking mode. It is the one guy fighting everyone else who is in combat, not self defense combat. Now I guess you would say this one guy needs to roll on the ground with one guy while everyone else watches. Hey maybe in Dale "Knifefighters" real world combat situations the opponents take turns, maybe they tap like on WWF and come at you one at a time :rolleyes:

So Dale, how many bar fights have you been in which involved only one opponent and which you took them to the ground and made them submit??

Two things.

First, the skills are constant. How we use them (our tactical choices) will depend on the situation.

Second, your not going to beat multiple attackers (empty handed, and it's really unliely even with a weapon) unless they are complete and utter scrubs. This is more fantasy stuff.

[Askari Hodari]

When you look that the UFC you see a microcosm of what happens in real fighting. In a street fight styles do not prevail, fighters do. The same is true in the UFC to some extent. The grappler may catch a knee when going for a takedown. The striker may get taken down and submitted. The well rounded fighter may simply run out of steam. The UFC shows the dynamic nature of fighting.

You can't go into a combat sport setting and say "I shall prevail by only using WC to vanquish my foes". While this may work some of the time. It might not work all of the time. UFC fighters train for simplicity and proficiency. Simplicity in that you won't see a wide range of esoteric techniques in most mma matches. You'll see jabs, crosses, hooks, round house kicks, take downs of varying types, and varying types of submissions, etc. You won't see a lot of rigid or even standardized approaches. You will instead see a proficient application of fluidity, whereas the adept fighter flows from boxing, to MT, to grappling seamlessly.

So if a fighter were to incorporate WC, then it would probably be a part of a wider array of approaches. If had ambitions to fight competitively I'd use some WC, but I'd also use techniques from other arts.

Again, styles may not prevail. Fighters invariably will.

[Sihing73]

That sounds great -- but your ability to do that will depend on your training. In other words, how good your ground game is. Regardless of what you want to do or don't want to do, your ability to do it will rest on your skill level (and overall attributes).

One drill we do here is to start from a bottom position or guard and try to get up while the other guy just tries to keep you on the ground -- and does everything they can to keep you there. It's not easy (it takes some good skills and lots of conditioniing!). Especially against someone who has some ground skills and knows what is going on.

This is fantasy.

I don't want to get into a streetfight at all. But if it happens, my best chance at being able to deal with that situation is to have competant, realistic fighting skills in stand-up, clinch, and ground.

I must ask WTF is "street combat"? The reality is if you are atacked on the street and your assailant has a weapon, you're f#cked. If your assailant has firends, your f#cked. I'm not saying that you can't get lucky -- or that you may not manage to escape, but the situation is dire. You're not going to beat competant multiple opponents or someone competant with a weapon if you are unarmed.

Two things.

First, the skills are constant. How we use them (our tactical choices) will depend on the situation.

Second, your not going to beat multiple attackers (empty handed, and it's really unliely even with a weapon) unless they are complete and utter scrubs. This is more fantasy stuff.

So tell me, do you honestly want to go to the ground in a real street fight? Is that your optimum position for defense and offense?

How many streetfights have you been in, again with a single opponent?

I actually agree with the fact that you are highly unlikely to beat multple attackers. But I think I will have more options if I remain on my feet in such a situation, do you agree?

[Knifefighter]

I tell you what, you live in LA, right? Take a walk down to one of your local gangbangers areas and see if you get attacked, then, if you survive, tell us how many attackers there were and whether or not you opted to shoot and take them to the ground. :

Aren't you a moderator? Are moderators allowed to troll now?

[Sihing73]

Aren't you a moderator? Are moderators allowed to troll now?

Hi Dale,

Pot calling the Kettle Black, perhaps :D

Just giving you the same type of posting you subject everyone else here too. Is there a reason you do not like it???? Oh, I am still waiting for that video of the MMA guy training against weapons or multiple attacks. I mean hey, if you can demand video of everyone else and feel that if you can see it it did not happen why not post video supporting your views or comments?

So what makes what I am doing trolling but your posting worthwhile :confused:

Or is it that you are unable to actually back up your views? I mean you have already posted that you would not want to go to the ground in a real fight with multiple opponents yet you seem to believe that BJJ is more realistic than WC for the street........seems a bit hypocritical to me. Why promote an art so much when you yourself have admitted in this thread that you would not use it in a real life situation which is more than likely to happen and include more than one opponent :rolleyes:

[Knifefighter]

So tell me, do you honestly want to go to the ground in a real street fight? Is that your optimum position for defense and offense?

How many streetfights have you been in, again with a single opponent?

I actually agree with the fact that you are highly unlikely to beat multple attackers. But I think I will have more options if I remain on my feet in such a situation, do you agree?

I've been in quite a few real life altercations with a single opponent.

As far as multiple opponents, of course you don't want to purposely take it to the ground if you are the only one. However, maybe you don't have any friends, but I often hang with guys I train with, most of whom have both striking, grappling and FMA backgrounds. In these cases, it's usually the "other guys" who need to worry about coming up against multiple opponents (I could tell you a few "bar brawl" stories about this from my past, but I'm not very proud of that so I won't).

As far as being by myself, I think I'm pretty well rounded with a FMA, boxing, and MT background in addition to my wrestling and BJJ training. My experience has been that I have a pretty good feel for what to do in different situations.

How about you? What do you train to address other areas that your WC doesn't address? What are you going to do when those multiple opponents with weapons swarm you and take you to the ground?

[KimWingChun]

The UFC fighters just haven't found out about Wing Chun yet.
When they do UFC will never look the same again. The first fighters
that discovers it will reign supreme and dominate all the other fighters,
and eventually everyone will take up Wing Chun and then we will
see championship belt fights being performed chi sao style. Glory days. :D

Peace

[Knifefighter]

Hi Dale,

Pot calling the Kettle Black, perhaps :D

Nope, just not sure of the rules around here. Seems like normal posters are allowed to stir things up a bit... I just didn't know moderators could also.

[Knifefighter]

Oh, I am still waiting for that video of the MMA guy training against weapons or multiple attacks.

Considering the fact that I have posted multiple videos of myself fighting full contact, I'd say it is your turn to post some of your "realistic" training.

Of course everyone knows that will never happen.

[Sihing73]

I've been in quite a few real life altercations with a single opponent.

As far as multiple opponents, of course you don't want to purposely take it to the ground if you are the only one. However, maybe you don't have any friends, but I often hang with guys I train with, most of whom have both striking, grappling and FMA backgrounds. In these cases, it's usually the "other guys" who need to worry about coming up against multiple opponents (I could tell you a few "bar brawl" stories about this from my past, but I'm not very proud of that so I won't).

As far as being by myself, I think I'm pretty well rounded with a FMA, boxing, and MT background in addition to my wrestling and BJJ training. My experience has been that I have a pretty good feel for what to do in different situations.

How about you? What do you train to address other areas that your WC doesn't address? What are you going to do when those multiple opponents with weapons swarm you and take you to the ground?

Hi Dale,

Now I understand, you need to have others to back you up in real life situations. So tell me do you fight as a tag team, too :D

I practice running away, very very fast in order to avoid getting my butt kicked ;). Of course, I train both Wing Chun and Pekiti Tirsia so I also feel that I am well rounded. I also obtained a Black belt in Judo prior to learning WC, but that was over 30 years ago so I remember almost nothing.

As to being on the ground, been there. And, in such situations I can assure you it was not one on one where I had the luxury of rolling around for 10 minutes waiting for the other guy to give up. No, when I was on the ground it was with two or three guys trying their hardest to stomp and kick me. My training was and is geared to try and protect as much as possible while getting back to my feet as quickly as possible.

You are right, I have no friends :o so I unfortunately need to go it alone and have only myself to rely on. I am not sure if this means I am more skilled or less as I am worried that if I had my own group or pack traveling with me I might look for trouble as I would feel inadequate and need to prove my superior skills to myself and others. But hey, at least with "friends" with me I have a better chance of winning.

[Knifefighter]

I practice running away, very very fast in order to avoid getting my butt kicked ;).

If you ever get a wife or girlfriend, I'm sure she will feel very safe knowing that.


And, in such situations I can assure you it was not one on one where I had the luxury of rolling around for 10 minutes waiting for the other guy to give up. .

What is it that makes all the clueless guys think that groundfighting is rolling around on the ground for 10 minutes?

[MSphinx]

What is it that makes all the clueless guys think that groundfighting is rolling around on the ground for 10 minutes?

It's an ignorant assumption partially based on watching two skilled grapplers fight. These people completely forget that the reason the matches take so long is because the two fighters are well versed in their art. If one were a novice, such matches would last seconds.

It's like saying punching someone in the face doesn't work because de la Hoya vs Mayweather went twelve full rounds.

[Knifefighter]

It's an ignorant assumption partially based on watching two skilled grapplers fight. These people completely forget that the reason the matches take so long is because the two fighters are well versed in their art. If one were a novice, such matches would last seconds.

It's like saying punching someone in the face doesn't work because de la Hoya vs Mayweather went twelve full rounds.

Yeah, I guess you are right... that's what happens when clueless people watch the UFC.

[Sihing73]

It's an ignorant assumption partially based on watching two skilled grapplers fight. These people completely forget that the reason the matches take so long is because the two fighters are well versed in their art. If one were a novice, such matches would last seconds.

It's like saying punching someone in the face doesn't work because de la Hoya vs Mayweather went twelve full rounds.

Perhaps, but if the two guys I watched this weekend were "skilled" then it don't take much to be skilled in grappling :p

I know, I know, in a real situation you would just break limbs and go on to the next guy. Speaking of matches against novices, did'nt a lot of the early UFC matches go for several minutes when fighting mostly strikers?

Oh and I guess we could apply the same standard to those who believe WC, or any other art for that matter, would not work in the street. In many cases those making those assumptions are "clueless" when it comes to WC, or insert art here.

To be frank, I have more respect for Boxers as they train to hit and be hit and would be a more dangerous foe, IMHO.

[MSphinx]

I don't know about all the early ones, but you can check out the stoppage times for all the fights in UFC 1. As far as I know, not one lasted over five minutes.

[sanjuro_ronin]

For a fighter, any fighter , to decide to add something to his/her arsenal, like WC for example, that something would have to be proven to work just as well or better than what he currently has in his arsenal.
In the case of WC which is a striking system, it would have to prove to be as effective or, perferably, more effective than the typical striking arts being used ie: Boxing, MT, Sumatran Thumb poaking, etc.

At this stage, that is not the case and WC has NOT proven itself "worthy" to replace the "tried and true" striking arts available to any given fighter.

It really is just that simple.

[sihing]

For a fighter, any fighter , to decide to add something to his/her arsenal, like WC for example, that something would have to be proven to work just as well or better than what he currently has in his arsenal.
In the case of WC which is a striking system, it would have to prove to be as effective or, perferably, more effective than the typical striking arts being used ie: Boxing, MT, Sumatran Thumb poaking, etc.

At this stage, that is not the case and WC has NOT proven itself "worthy" to replace the "tried and true" striking arts available to any given fighter.

It really is just that simple.

Exactly, to the MMA crowd it has not proven itself, so why would they invest time in it. The MMA crowd is a segment of the Martial Arts community, but not the baseline for what is effective/non effective, at least not for every situation or practitioner. IMO, they have their own proven methods of training, that can if followed correctly make someone a good cage/octagon fighter. In the end, and this is true for all that wish to apply their choosen MA, it comes down to the individual (how they train, what their intent is for training, etc..) and what their unique abilites (personal attributes, mental, emotional, physical) are.

James

[k gledhill]

more vt [mine anyway :D] thinking is done in ufc than people see... how to attack is something many fighters struggle with ...vt is teaching this ...how to deliver a sustained attack in a functional distance for the purpose of dominating the fight by offense...if you dont see it in your own Wing Chun , ask yourself why ? ;)

good input from another thread

"Today, nearly 95% of all BJJ practitioners are being taught and focusing their efforts on preparing for competitions, including the Mundial. The problem is that 95% of what is being used in competition does not apply, and will not work in a real fight."

"That is a comment from Ryron Gracie, son of Rorion, grandson of Helio. and the primary instructor at the Gracie Academy. It suggests the strong possibility that Ryron would agree that there is an element of "fantasy fu" in BJJ, just as in other martial arts. Granted...its a matter of degree. But again, perhaps BJJ isn't the paragon of "reality" fighting that Terrence and Dale would like us to believe. Just thought I would close out my involvement on this thread with words from someone who should have good insight into BJJ itself. "


Ive heard the same thing from my students who also train mixed in bjj....its not rocket science to figure out a competiton based on win by ko or submission has an art devoted to submissions winning ...in competitions designed for it .

[Graychuan]

more vt [mine anyway :D] thinking is done in ufc than people see... how to attack is something many fighters struggle with ...vt is teaching this ...how to deliver a sustained attack in a functional distance for the purpose of dominating the fight by offense...if you dont see it in your own Wing Chun , ask yourself why ? ;)

good input from another thread

"Today, nearly 95% of all BJJ practitioners are being taught and focusing their efforts on preparing for competitions, including the Mundial. The problem is that 95% of what is being used in competition does not apply, and will not work in a real fight."

"That is a comment from Ryron Gracie, son of Rorion, grandson of Helio. and the primary instructor at the Gracie Academy. It suggests the strong possibility that Ryron would agree that there is an element of "fantasy fu" in BJJ, just as in other martial arts. Granted...its a matter of degree. But again, perhaps BJJ isn't the paragon of "reality" fighting that Terrence and Dale would like us to believe. Just thought I would close out my involvement on this thread with words from someone who should have good insight into BJJ itself. "


Ive heard the same thing from my students who also train mixed in bjj....its not rocket science to figure out a competiton based on win by ko or submission has an art devoted to submissions winning ...in competitions designed for it .


Well Said.

~Cg~

[Redrooster]

Why do UFC fighters not use Wing Chun?

Wing Chun isnt designed for the ring, its designed for real situations.

The dominant styles in UFC are that way because of the rules involved.

In a real fight I dont want to be on the ground under any circumstances. Even

from a mounted posisition you are vulnerable from attack from others. If your on

the bottom like a BJJ player, your in a world of trouble from biting, foreign objects

or thumbs in your eyes , fishooking etc.

Some of the complaints about WC are however true. I have two schools in my

area and neither allow sparring. This is nonsensical tradition. Jigoro Kano had it

right when he introduced randori into Judo.

Western boxing , Muay thai, Judo, BJJ are so effective in the ring because they are

practiced in a real format. I do believe that something like sensitivity drills should

be MASTERED before a student should be allowed to spar, but as they achieve

neuro muscular memory they NEED to spar to put the art into use. Aikido suffers

from the same traditionally problem. Im not comparing WC to Aikodo in any other

sense I believe WC is far better but they do share the same problem.

I prefer results to tradition.

RR

[anerlich]

nearly 95% of all BJJ practitioners

You could be right, but then there are those on this forum who say that 95% of WC is crap, except of course for what they do (you know who you are). I guess this is pretty universal to all activities.

To generalise further, nearly everyone thinks that 90% of the world are idiots, but that they belong to the other 10%. We can't all be right.

It's hard to remember which thread I'm on sometimes, the UFC, Fantasy, Ultimate Art, or one of several others. I'ts like there's a maze of twisty little threads, all alike.

Do what makes you happy and fires your imagination. Forget about the 90%. Or 95% or whatever it is.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Good post, Redrooster.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Wing Chun isnt designed for the ring, its designed for real situations.

The dominant styles in UFC are that way because of the rules involved.

What REAl situations are you refering to?
The dominant styls are there because they work, period.


In a real fight I dont want to be on the ground under any circumstances. Even

from a mounted posisition you are vulnerable from attack from others. If your on

the bottom like a BJJ player, your in a world of trouble from biting, foreign objects

or thumbs in your eyes , fishooking etc.

What years are we in again?
Why do people still bing up this "ground" issue over an dover when its been stated over an dover that preparing for the ground and prefering the ground are two very different things.


Jigoro Kano had it

right when he introduced randori into Judo.
The randori method came from his studies of Kito Ryu jujutsu, he didn't introduce anything, it was always a part of judo since its creation.


Western boxing , Muay thai, Judo, BJJ are so effective in the ring because they are

practiced in a real format.

They are effective, period.


I do believe that something like sensitivity drills should

be MASTERED before a student should be allowed to spar, but as they achieve

neuro muscular memory they NEED to spar to put the art into use.

Many systems spar with no need of 'sensitivity drills" and do great.

[Alan Orr]

I think a lot of people miss the point.

In martial arts we train our own systems within our own worlds. Therefore Chi Sao or BJJ rolling as training methods are not the applications on real fighting. But what would be applications in real fighting come from the skills we develop within these training methods.

Simple.

I have guys fighting Pro MMA using wing chun. Not chi sao in the ring, but skills from Chi Sao, timing, sticking, control of body structure and so on. Angle of punches and power all wing chun.


Regards

Alan

[t_niehoff]

Why do UFC fighters not use Wing Chun?

Wing Chun isnt designed for the ring, its designed for real situations.


Fighting is a "real situation", be it in a ring or in the gym or on the street. If you don't think it is real,step in a ring and see.



The dominant styles in UFC are that way because of the rules involved.


Fighters go with what works. If someone shows them a better way, they'll be doing it in a heartbeat because they all want a competitive edge.



In a real fight I dont want to be on the ground under any circumstances. Even

from a mounted posisition you are vulnerable from attack from others. If your on

the bottom like a BJJ player, your in a world of trouble from biting, foreign objects

or thumbs in your eyes , fishooking etc.


Theoretical nonfighters always have reasons behind their theory. They just don't have sufficient experienceto know their reasoning is flawed.

I don't want to be in a street fight under any circumstances. And it would be nice if I had that control -- if my wishes only came true. The fact of the matter is in almost every case things are not going to happen the way you want them to. Good fighters don't prepare for things to go well, they prepare for when things go wrong. They don't start with "I don't want to hit the ground" but with "I need to be ready for when I do hit the ground." Because if you fight, it will happen, things will go wrong.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOQLg7Kc8So




Some of the complaints about WC are however true. I have two schools in my

area and neither allow sparring. This is nonsensical tradition. Jigoro Kano had it

right when he introduced randori into Judo.

Western boxing , Muay thai, Judo, BJJ are so effective in the ring because they are

practiced in a real format. I do believe that something like sensitivity drills should

be MASTERED before a student should be allowed to spar, but as they achieve

neuro muscular memory they NEED to spar to put the art into use. Aikido suffers

from the same traditionally problem. Im not comparing WC to Aikodo in any other

sense I believe WC is far better but they do share the same problem.

I prefer results to tradition.

RR

If you preferred results to tradition, then you'd be throwing out forms, chi sao, etc. because they produce no results (development of fighting skills).

[Shaolin Wookie]

Why do UFC fighters not use Wing Chun?

Wing Chun isnt designed for the ring, its designed for real situations.

The dominant styles in UFC are that way because of the rules involved.

In a real fight I dont want to be on the ground under any circumstances. Even

from a mounted posisition you are vulnerable from attack from others. If your on

the bottom like a BJJ player, your in a world of trouble from biting, foreign objects

or thumbs in your eyes , fishooking etc.

Some of the complaints about WC are however true. I have two schools in my

area and neither allow sparring. This is nonsensical tradition. Jigoro Kano had it

right when he introduced randori into Judo.

Western boxing , Muay thai, Judo, BJJ are so effective in the ring because they are

practiced in a real format. I do believe that something like sensitivity drills should

be MASTERED before a student should be allowed to spar, but as they achieve

neuro muscular memory they NEED to spar to put the art into use. Aikido suffers

from the same traditionally problem. Im not comparing WC to Aikodo in any other

sense I believe WC is far better but they do share the same problem.

I prefer results to tradition.

RR

Dude, I know you don't want to be on the ground, but what about when you are? And WC is used in the UFC. They punch, they kick, it's all the same. The question is can you do it while moving and matching a live guy. You have to free up the footwork, some and change stances. I'm not trying to sound like Bruce Lee, but you have to move beyond rules at some point. It isn't MMA. It's just fighting. Nobody has a monopoly on that ****.

[t_niehoff]

I have guys fighting Pro MMA using wing chun. Not chi sao in the ring, but skills from Chi Sao, timing, sticking, control of body structure and so on. Angle of punches and power all wing chun.


There is an important distinction that most people don't appreciate -- you (Alan) are approaching chi sao from a fighter's perspective, and as such, you can see the "connection" between the unrealistic drill of chi sao and fighting (because you fight), and from that what you want and can get from the drill, etc. IOW's you look at it from the top down (starting with the fight, seeing what things work, focusing on them in the drill, etc.). That's what stops you from going offinto fantasy land. Most people, however, look at it from the bottom up (starting with theory and how they think things should work), from the unrealistic drill perspective, and trying to take that perspective on things and make it fit into fighting, rather than taking fighting and putting it into the drills.

[forever young]

In a real fight I dont want to be on the ground under any circumstances. Even

from a mounted posisition you are vulnerable from attack from others. If your on

the bottom like a BJJ player, your in a world of trouble from biting, foreign objects

or thumbs in your eyes , fishooking etc.



i feel this can be addressed as thus.
bjj 'players' (and pimps :D ) do NOT want to 'be' "on the bottom like a bjj player" rather use their knowledge of escaping bad positions to esentially reverse the situation from bottom to top, infact there is a clear distinction between the 'dominant' positions and as such you are encouraged and rewarded to try an obtain a better position of which underneath is not one, remember the mantra **all together now** "Position before Submission" ;) so the bjj fighter should always be trying to sweep/escape from underneath and have the necessary tools for the job (and if so desired then return to a standing/wing chun type range thingy type thing)

[Redrooster]

"The dominant styls are there because they work, period."

This is not true entirely. It is true that some systems have both real life and ring value. However depending on the rules of the ring some stlyes have more value within the context of a match. A BJJ guy loses every time in a catch wrestling match as the gaurd is a pin for the mounted position.

The point being is that "what works" in the ring is dependant on the rules. in the early UFC's there were no gloves. Many many fighters broke their hands, this clearly favored grapplers, now with gloves being introduced we are seeing more stand up as knockouts without broken hands are possible. This is thefghters following"what works" in a given situation.

"The randori method came from his studies of Kito Ryu jujutsu, he didn't introduce anything, it was always a part of judo since its creation."

I simply said that Kano introduced randori to Judo. I didnt say he invented sparring. It was however the big difference in the effectiveness of Judo now and then. And Kano invented "Judo" so of course it was there since the begining.

"Many systems spar with no need of 'sensitivity drills" and do great"

I agree, but this does not make sensitivity drills bad. I personally think they have value in training the neuromuscular system. This allows a person to do less thinking and more reacting, in Taoist parlance "getting things done without doing"

Alan said"I have guys fighting Pro MMA using wing chun. Not chi sao in the ring, but skills from Chi Sao, timing, sticking, control of body structure and so on. Angle of punches and power all wing chun. "

This is the value of the drills. So lets not get method of training confused with the value of the underlying technique.


As stated my problem with most WC training is that they do not follow up sensitivity drills with sparring. Mike Tyson said everyones got a plan until they get hit, and of course Mike is right. Theory and sensitivity drills can do only so much.
Im quite certain Alan trains his guys hard using the WC principles, completing the training for real application. learn it and forget it.

"Fighting is a "real situation", be it in a ring or in the gym or on the street. If you don't think it is real,step in a ring and see. "

Dont take this so literally! I am fully aware of the reality in the ring. However the potential stakes in the ring and on the street are quite different are they not? In the ring you generally have an idea of rules, round times etc.. these do not exist on the street. I work in a prison and there are times when I work a psych unit. This is far more dangerous than walking a yard with killers and rapists.On the psych unit you never know what to expect, there is at lest some logical order in the yard .And so it goes in the ring and on the street, you may know full well that ou can takea guy in the ring but what they may pull on the street is unkown commodity,if your on the ground will they bite chunks of your face off? you dont know so stayiing off the deck or at least not being on the bottom is of upmost impotance. Is this not what Bruce Lee said if confronted with a grappler- he would bite- brutal and effective. Bottom lineis street vs ring is a big difference.


"Theoretical nonfighters always have reasons behind their theory. They just don't have sufficient experienceto know their reasoning is flawed. "

Almost all system have techniques that dont work or are inferior to other techniques that are available. Look to the punch of karate or TKD, yes it delivers a solid punch but it has many problems in terms of defensive covering. So the problem is NOT whether the tehnique is from a non fighter or a fighter it is a matter of effective or not effective. I think your dead on right about not knowing whether a technique is good or not if you dont validate it through application in a real or simulated real situation.


"If you preferred results to tradition, then you'd be throwing out forms, chi sao, etc. because they produce no results (development of fighting skills)"

I think Alan would tell you they do produce results if followed by sparring.


"Dude, I know you don't want to be on the ground, but what about when you are? And WC is used in the UFC. They punch, they kick, it's all the same."

I agree. You cant fight effectively in the ring or on the street without addrssing both games. For the record Im not training in WC, Im training in Judo. But because i agree with what your sayig I am considering WC as a stand up form. I think western boxing as taught in the bare knuckle days has the best hand works for a real fight period, but im 44 next week and like Chuang Tzu said "when your young act young, when your old act old", well Im kind of in the middle but i dont want break my hands or get my brain scrambled sparring hard, so Wing Chun seems like a practical alternative. It is intellegent and can trained through old age. For my personal situation an art that is deep, intellectually stimulating and functional may be the best fit. WC seems to fit that mold.

RR

[Alan Orr]

Good post RR

regards

Alan

[t_niehoff]

"The dominant styls are there because they work, period."

This is not true entirely. It is true that some systems have both real life and ring value. However depending on the rules of the ring some stlyes have more value within the context of a match. A BJJ guy loses every time in a catch wrestling match as the gaurd is a pin for the mounted position.

The point being is that "what works" in the ring is dependant on the rules. in the early UFC's there were no gloves. Many many fighters broke their hands, this clearly favored grapplers, now with gloves being introduced we are seeing more stand up as knockouts without broken hands are possible. This is thefghters following"what works" in a given situation.


And by extending your "reasoning", wrestlers would do very poorly in boxing matches -- as the "rules" favor the boxers. ;) But what we're talking about MMA/NHB where just about anything, excluding a few "foul tactics", can be used.

And I don't remember that many fighters breaking their hands when they didn't wear gloves. I think the change that has occured is that the strikers have learned the ground and so can really throw without fear of hitting the ground.



"The randori method came from his studies of Kito Ryu jujutsu, he didn't introduce anything, it was always a part of judo since its creation."

I simply said that Kano introduced randori to Judo. I didnt say he invented sparring. It was however the big difference in the effectiveness of Judo now and then. And Kano invented "Judo" so of course it was there since the begining.

"Many systems spar with no need of 'sensitivity drills" and do great"

I agree, but this does not make sensitivity drills bad. I personally think they have value in training the neuromuscular system. This allows a person to do less thinking and more reacting, in Taoist parlance "getting things done without doing"


It doesn't make them useful either. Quite frankly, how can anyone believe that to practice things in a way they will not be performed in fighting will develop "sensitivity"?



Alan said"I have guys fighting Pro MMA using wing chun. Not chi sao in the ring, but skills from Chi Sao, timing, sticking, control of body structure and so on. Angle of punches and power all wing chun. "

This is the value of the drills. So lets not get method of training confused with the value of the underlying technique.


And let's not jump to conclusions about the value of the drills. Why practice in a way that does not correspond to what you will do in fighting? How is this productive? Doesn't it make more sense to practice what we will do in fighting as we will do it?



As stated my problem with most WC training is that they do not follow up sensitivity drills with sparring. Mike Tyson said everyones got a plan until they get hit, and of course Mike is right. Theory and sensitivity drills can do only so much.
Im quite certain Alan trains his guys hard using the WC principles, completing the training for real application. learn it and forget it.


The problem is that there is no connection or correspondence between what is practiced in most WCK training, including chi sao, and what is done in fighting -- you do Y in practice and X in fighting. That being the case, how does doing lots of Y, help your doing of X?

Would Alan's guys do just as well, or better, if they didn't do chi sao? Or did very little of it?



"Fighting is a "real situation", be it in a ring or in the gym or on the street. If you don't think it is real,step in a ring and see. "

Dont take this so literally! I am fully aware of the reality in the ring. However the potential stakes in the ring and on the street are quite different are they not? In the ring you generally have an idea of rules, round times etc.. these do not exist on the street. I work in a prison and there are times when I work a psych unit. This is far more dangerous than walking a yard with killers and rapists.On the psych unit you never know what to expect, there is at lest some logical order in the yard .And so it goes in the ring and on the street, you may know full well that ou can takea guy in the ring but what they may pull on the street is unkown commodity,if your on the ground will they bite chunks of your face off? you dont know so stayiing off the deck or at least not being on the bottom is of upmost impotance. Is this not what Bruce Lee said if confronted with a grappler- he would bite- brutal and effective. Bottom lineis street vs ring is a big difference.


Of course they are different situations and require different strategies and tactics, but the physical skills are constant. Things like biting sound great, but unfortunately, like everything else your ability to pull them off depend on your skill level. Foul tactics don't work by themselves. If you face a good grappler on the ground, you're not biting anything but they can bite you.



"Theoretical nonfighters always have reasons behind their theory. They just don't have sufficient experienceto know their reasoning is flawed. "

Almost all system have techniques that dont work or are inferior to other techniques that are available. Look to the punch of karate or TKD, yes it delivers a solid punch but it has many problems in terms of defensive covering. So the problem is NOT whether the tehnique is from a non fighter or a fighter it is a matter of effective or not effective. I think your dead on right about not knowing whether a technique is good or not if you dont validate it through application in a real or simulated real situation.


"Real fight" is a myth. If it is a fighting environment, it is real.



"If you preferred results to tradition, then you'd be throwing out forms, chi sao, etc. because they produce no results (development of fighting skills)"

I think Alan would tell you they do produce results if followed by sparring.


It's because he is sparring that he is getting results. The WCK drills can be used as a teaching platform, like training wheels are on a bicycle. Once you can ride the bike, do you keep going back to the training wheels?



"Dude, I know you don't want to be on the ground, but what about when you are? And WC is used in the UFC. They punch, they kick, it's all the same."

I agree. You cant fight effectively in the ring or on the street without addrssing both games. For the record Im not training in WC, Im training in Judo. But because i agree with what your sayig I am considering WC as a stand up form. I think western boxing as taught in the bare knuckle days has the best hand works for a real fight period,


Theory and speculation.




but im 44 next week and like Chuang Tzu said "when your young act young, when your old act old", well Im kind of in the middle but i dont want break my hands or get my brain scrambled sparring hard, so Wing Chun seems like a practical alternative. It is intellegent and can trained through old age. For my personal situation an art that is deep, intellectually stimulating and functional may be the best fit. WC seems to fit that mold.

RR

For WCK to be a practical alternative to boxing, you have to train it like boxing, including the hard sparring. It is the training method and how intensely you follow it that brings results, not the style.

[Alan Orr]

Good post as always Terence!

I think Chi Sao is often trained with no connection to what you are training it for. I think that is the simple point Terence is trying to make.

The way I teach and train Chi Sao is geared towards fighting. It must work under full pressure, which does not mean it is always trained under full pressure either. Much as in BJJ you can roll nice and you can roll not so nice. But it all adds different sets of skills. If you train Wing Chun without an understanding of body structure then in my mind ( my opinon) you are in fact wasting your time.

That is the point Terence is making.

It will not help your fighting skill. It may help you if a bum attacks you, but not a skilled or strong fighter. Using you body power is 101. People like to say wing chun is soft etc, but fighting is not! You can have and do have soft skills in wing chun, but it is different than slow unstructured chi sao. It should feel soft to you and hard to your opponent. That means you have good body power and do not take on the force via your incorrect use of muscles etc But you should take the power via the correct muscles and vectors at the right time. When you hit you should understand how to link you muscles and have correct vector control.

Chi Sao is only a part of the training to develop fighting skills.

My best

Alan

[Redrooster]

I liked Alans post better I think. having said that...

"And by extending your "reasoning", wrestlers would do very poorly in boxing matches -- as the "rules" favor the boxers. But what we're talking about MMA/NHB where just about anything, excluding a few "foul tactics", can be used.

And I don't remember that many fighters breaking their hands when they didn't wear gloves. I think the change that has occured is that the strikers have learned the ground and so can really throw without fear of hitting the ground."

The early UFC's were tournements as you will recall, many times alternatives were used due to a fighter not being able to continue. MOST of this was due to broken hands. People do not understand that proper punching and hand conditioning are absolutely necessary if you are going to fight with bare or even wrapped hands. In the old days the bare knuckle boxers would use their heads to block fists and break them ending the fight , another technique was to turn your hip bone into a body blow with the same results.

The hands used to be thrown almost exclusively in a vertical manner. It was known that horizontal fists broke easily whereas a vertical fist did not, they also delivered far more power due to being in the power line as Jack Dempsey called it. We see this today in European boxers with the rigid stand up style, this is simply a throw back to the bare knuckle days. Hooks to the head are nearly non existant in bare knuckle for the same reason. So gloves or no gloves makes a huge difference in the manner a fight is conducted in. Also as I understand it WC is one of the few martial arts that employs a verticle fist.

As to the no holds barred nature, even the time restrictions that have been put into play have changed the complexion of the fight. Short rounds and frequent restarts work against the pure submission fighter like the BJJ guys, who I respect greatly. Again my point here is that rules shape the style of the fights. And i do agree that the quality of the strikers is much better adopting ground game tactics.

"And let's not jump to conclusions about the value of the drills. Why practice in a way that does not correspond to what you will do in fighting? How is this productive? Doesn't it make more sense to practice what we will do in fighting as we will do it?"

It does make sense as ive said I believe NOT sparring in this manner is what has retarded the art and why most youtube WC clips are jokes. But as to the drills they are in my opinion helpful in the same manner that a boxer uses the speed bag. They dont fight like that but it adds to skill and neuromuscular conditioning.
So again the bottom line is where do you start transitioning from drills to sparring.


"The problem is that there is no connection or correspondence between what is practiced in most WCK training, including chi sao, and what is done in fighting -- you do Y in practice and X in fighting. That being the case, how does doing lots of Y, help your doing of X? "

I dont agree that there is no connection. To me there is only a question of how much value in relation to the extended time practicing them.

You dont run in the ring yet conditioning is probably the single most important aspect of fight prep.

I do understand your point though, I love many aspects of aikido but wont practice it because its training does not relate directly to real situations.

"Real fight" is a myth. If it is a fighting environment, it is real. "

I do not agree with this for the reasons stated, the stakes are wholly different. Potential loss of life vs a loss of a match are not the same. Perhaps because of where I work I know what people are capable of, cutting other peoples heads off, setting people on fire , raping babies, its a cruel world brother and if you cant see the stakes are different in a real fight I cant help you.

"It's because he is sparring that he is getting results. The WCK drills can be used as a teaching platform, like training wheels are on a bicycle. Once you can ride the bike, do you keep going back to the training wheels?"

Yes thats right. In my mind once that neuromuscular skill is there its sunk in to a great extent. After a layoff it might be helpful to knock some rust off though.

"For WCK to be a practical alternative to boxing, you have to train it like boxing, including the hard sparring. It is the training method and how intensely you follow it that brings results, not the style. "

You may well be right about that. And I havent really decided what direction to go in. The other thought is to develop a good strong vertical straight lead like that used by the bare knucklers, Jack Dempsey and Bruce Lee. The general idea would be to use it in a manner as to keep the attacker at a distance and generally keep them off balance where they will make a thrusting attack ideally suited for a Judo throw. Additionally Ive seen enough Irish Gypsy bare knuckle fights to know that a strong jab combined with evasive footwork can close eyes, break noses and jaws to end a fight by itself.

Its nice to have options :)

RR

[k gledhill]

good points ...conditioned hands without gloves ...I dont wear gloves when i fight , but learned to hit heads with palm strikes if they tried to do a low entry to grab a wrist first , before hitting me ... the palm strike to the head full force is like a phone book strike , stuns a lot...guys stand back reeling holding their heads with both hands , kinda wide open to a finish if there arent more guys to fight .

[k gledhill]

Good post as always Terence!

I think Chi Sao is often trained with no connection to what you are training it for. I think that is the simple point Terence is trying to make.

The way I teach and train Chi Sao is geared towards fighting. It must work under full pressure, which does not mean it is always trained under full pressure either. Much as in BJJ you can roll nice and you can roll not so nice. But it all adds different sets of skills. If you train Wing Chun without an understanding of body structure then in my mind ( my opinon) you are in fact wasting your time.

That is the point Terence is making.

It will not help your fighting skill. It may help you if a bum attacks you, but not a skilled or strong fighter. Using you body power is 101. People like to say wing chun is soft etc, but fighting is not! You can have and do have soft skills in wing chun, but it is different than slow unstructured chi sao. It should feel soft to you and hard to your opponent. That means you have good body power and do not take on the force via your incorrect use of muscles etc But you should take the power via the correct muscles and vectors at the right time. When you hit you should understand how to link you muscles and have correct vector control.

Chi Sao is only a part of the training to develop fighting skills.

My best

Alan


that doesnt mean all of us are doing what Terence does ...as chi-sao...I dont . Chi sao is a connection to develop the correct lateral defelctions of the systems core fighting skills..lin sil di da in individual arms , and the individual arms in partnerships striking ..one devoted to displacemnt in laterlal lines, meeting incoming force ...pak's , bongs, coupled with straight strikes that recover line clearing protocol on their own without , paks , bongs alone ....the chi-sao makes it second nature to work at the right distances /timing/vectors in ambidextrous delivery ...symetry of delivery by triangulating the apex to the target while keeping our attack line constantly off line to the intended force charge of the attack...until we attack

[jesper]

It's because he is sparring that he is getting results. The WCK drills can be used as a teaching platform, like training wheels are on a bicycle. Once you can ride the bike, do you keep going back to the training wheels?

I know elite swimmers who still uses the cardboard (sorry dont know the name) you started use when learning to swim. That way they can focus on specific movements be they leg or arms.

For me its the same with forms or chi sao. Those are tools to finetune certain abilities, nothing more and nothing less.

[jesper]

People like to say wing chun is soft etc, but fighting is not! You can have and do have soft skills in wing chun, but it is different than slow unstructured chi sao. It should feel soft to you and hard to your opponent. That means you have good body power and do not take on the force via your incorrect use of muscles etc But you should take the power via the correct muscles and vectors at the right time.

So very true.
Unfortunately many people also mistake this for not having to do any conditioning, since WC is supposed to be soft :(

[Alan Orr]

All good posts

Regards

Alan

[t_niehoff]

The early UFC's were tournements as you will recall, many times alternatives were used due to a fighter not being able to continue. MOST of this was due to broken hands. People do not understand that proper punching and hand conditioning are absolutely necessary if you are going to fight with bare or even wrapped hands. In the old days the bare knuckle boxers would use their heads to block fists and break them ending the fight , another technique was to turn your hip bone into a body blow with the same results.


I don't recall "many" fights stopping due to broken hands (I don't remember any, fwiw). Perhaps you could provide some evidence to support your claim?

And -- boxers using their heads to block fists? Turn your hip into a blow to break their fist? This is fantasy stuff.



The hands used to be thrown almost exclusively in a vertical manner. It was known that horizontal fists broke easily whereas a vertical fist did not, they also delivered far more power due to being in the power line as Jack Dempsey called it. We see this today in European boxers with the rigid stand up style, this is simply a throw back to the bare knuckle days. Hooks to the head are nearly non existant in bare knuckle for the same reason. So gloves or no gloves makes a huge difference in the manner a fight is conducted in. Also as I understand it WC is one of the few martial arts that employs a verticle fist[/B].


Your history is wrong as is your conclusion (horizontal fists break more easily). The veritical fist is common in TCMAs.



As to the no holds barred nature, even the time restrictions that have been put into play have changed the complexion of the fight. Short rounds and frequent restarts work against the pure submission fighter like the BJJ guys, who I respect greatly. Again my point here is that rules shape the style of the fights. And i do agree that the quality of the strikers is much better adopting ground game tactics.


Of course "rules" shape the fight, because they will dictate the strategy and tactics used. As I said, tactics will change with the situation ("rules" in this case) but the skills remain constant.



It does make sense as ive said I believe NOT sparring in this manner is what has retarded the art and why most youtube WC clips are jokes. But as to the drills they are in my opinion helpful in the same manner that a boxer uses the speed bag. They dont fight like that but it adds to skill and neuromuscular conditioning.
So again the bottom line is where do you start transitioning from drills to sparring.


Why would practicing the tools/skills of WCK in a unrealistic exercise, and so in a way that they will not really be performed in fighting (to do X), "help" to do them in fighting (when you do Y)? Is this sound training? Why not learn it as you will really do it, practice it as you will reallydo it, and then do it just like you've learned and practiced it?



I dont agree that there is no connection. To me there is only a question of how much value in relation to the extended time practicing them.

You dont run in the ring yet conditioning is probably the single most important aspect of fight prep.

I do understand your point though, I love many aspects of aikido but wont practice it because its training does not relate directly to real situations.


Running is to develop conditioning, not to build fighting skills/tools. To learn and/or develop skills/tools, we need to practice using/doing that skill/tool as we will use/do it in fighting; you don't learn/develop a skill by not doing it. When you do unrealistic exercises you are not using the WCK movements, tools, actions, etc. as you will use them in fighting so you can't learn/develop a fighting skill since you arenot doing it.



I do not agree with this for the reasons stated, the stakes are wholly different. Potential loss of life vs a loss of a match are not the same. Perhaps because of where I work I know what people are capable of, cutting other peoples heads off, setting people on fire , raping babies, its a cruel world brother and if you cant see the stakes are different in a real fight I cant help you.


Of course the "stakes" are different but the "stakes" don't determine the skills that you need to be successful (just the consequences if you are not). The skills needed to escape the mount, for example, remain the same whether in a ring or fighting for your life. There aren't different sets of skills for each fighting environment. Fighting is fighting and uses the same skills.

How you will use them, i.e., the tactics, may vary depending on the situation. So,if I am fighting one guy I may choose (tactical choice) to go to the ground but if I am fighting more than one guy I may choose (different situtation, different tactical choice) not to go to the ground.



Yes thats right. In my mind once that neuromuscular skill is there its sunk in to a great extent. After a layoff it might be helpful to knock some rust off though.


Unrealistic exercises, like chi sao, can be useful for teaching/learning new skills, tools, since they permit the trainee to focus on learning the movement, etc. The problem with unrealistic drills is, however, that they don't correspond to how those skills will really be used in fighting -- and so it leads nonfighters to have an unrealistic view of the skills, tools, and ultimately WCK.



You may well be right about that. And I havent really decided what direction to go in. The other thought is to develop a good strong vertical straight lead like that used by the bare knucklers, Jack Dempsey and Bruce Lee. The general idea would be to use it in a manner as to keep the attacker at a distance and generally keep them off balance where they will make a thrusting attack ideally suited for a Judo throw. Additionally Ive seen enough Irish Gypsy bare knuckle fights to know that a strong jab combined with evasive footwork can close eyes, break noses and jaws to end a fight by itself.

Its nice to have options :)

RR

Instead of looking to the past (Dempsey and Lee) or to low level guys (Irish Gypsy bareknucklers), why not look to really good, proven fighters and really good, proven methods of strategy, teachnique, training? Dempsey may have been good *for his day*, but boxing has advanced, has evolved, because boxers have taken what he brought to the game and taken it to new levels.

In my view, it takes alot of experience fighting - whether stand-up, clinch, or ground - to develop the discernment to know what is really going on, what sorts of things work for you, etc. Until then, it is all just theory. Instead of going in with a theory of how you believe you should fight, how you beleive you should train, etc. -- most of which will probably be wrong -- it is better just to seek out proven good fighters and fight trainers to work with, and let nature take its course.

[k gledhill]

not the first time I read a terence rebutal that sounds like simply

" Im not listening ! lalalalalal cant hear you !, but heres my response .." :D

hands can be easily broken with a head butt ...terence youve never hit someones head by accident ? if you did this sparring without gloves in VT you would learn maybe why we have alternatives to fists in bare hand/knuckle fighting ...Ive used this foreknowledge from sparring in Vt after every class to know that if I pop a guy on the back of his head coming low at me I will break/damage my knuckles, if I dont hit him flush or have an open hand strike as the alternative......
I have known a lot of guys who have broken knuckles on heads in fights...come on T get out of the tennis court one day or padded fist syndrome , Ive worked with boxers on door security who 'hurt' their hands after street er, ah, scrub fights :rolleyes:.....wallbag....500-1000 strikes a day for 15 years can do wonders to a fist , I never hurt my hands from hitting guys ....
A guy once 'flinched' and ducked as I hit him during a fight at a nighclub , I made full contact 'hard' on his forhead , but he took it and I didnt sustain any damage, even the guy I worked with standing next to me ,I heard , reacting to the sound , he thought I would be hurt...:D ...he ended up being arrested after we went down a flight of stairs ..I walked ;)

[t_niehoff]

not the first time I read a terence rebutal that sounds like simply

" Im not listening ! lalalalalal cant hear you !, but heres my response .." :D

hands can be easily broken with a head butt ...terence youve never hit someones head by accident ? if you did this sparring without gloves in VT you would learn maybe why we have alternatives to fists in bare hand/knuckle fighting ...Ive used this foreknowledge from sparring in Vt after every class to know that if I pop a guy on the back of his head coming low at me I will break/damage my knuckles, if I dont hit him flush or have an open hand strike as the alternative......
I have known a lot of guys who have broken knuckles on heads in fights...come on T get out of the tennis court one day or padded fist syndrome , Ive worked with boxers on door security who 'hurt' their hands after street er, ah, scrub fights :rolleyes:.....wallbag....500-1000 strikes a day for 15 years can do wonders to a fist , I never hurt my hands from hitting guys ....
A guy once 'flinched' and ducked as I hit him during a fight at a nighclub , I made full contact 'hard' on his forhead , but he took it and I didnt sustain any damage, even the guy I worked with standing next to me ,I heard , reacting to the sound , he thought I would be hurt...:D ...he ended up being arrested after we went down a flight of stairs ..I walked ;)

Hands can be broken. And sometimes are -- by accident. That's quite a different thing than believing the fantasy that you can break your opponent's hands with your headbutt. Letting the guy hit you in the head in the hope that he will hurt his fist -- yeah, that's a brilliant idea. Good luck with that. I'm sure nothing can go wriong there. ;)

You can stop telling me about all your fights and "street" experience -- I don't believe any of it. But if you want to swap stories, I can tell you about the 500 ninjas that I beat off with a stick.

[k gledhill]

terence i could give a rats arse what you think, dude! you have no credibility here beyond your cut & paste response ...who cares what you think ;) Im talking to the iceberg of the forum you dont see. Acident shmacident , what does a guy do when a fist is thrown ? ducks ...what hits the head ? a fist, what does a ring smart guy do to a fist if he knows this ? there are some hard nuts out there in scrub land , pickies/gypsies ..scrubs :D guys who fight more regularly in their local neighbourhoods than 'pro comp' fighters.....they come in groups , tribes, 'tooled up ' and drinking beer ...some belong to neo nazi groups who thrive on violence ..on anyone ...do you get that in your neighbourhood T ?
Oh yeah I forgot you reference tennis & chess when you talk about fighting...sorry forgot ; ) I refer to my fights with ninjas;) disguised as guys like you and me out for a good time everyweekend in the real world.....its my reference to fighting , hitting guys and the effects , not an analogy to tennis or chess...I hit aguy with a plam strike and this happened for real ...not if and maybe you should and if you play tennis you ...Ive tried to talk to you in tennis speak but on deaf ears ...what a surpirse !

[Shaolin Wookie]

I don't recall "many" fights stopping due to broken hands (I don't remember any, fwiw). Perhaps you could provide some evidence to support your claim?

UFC 1 - Gerdau breaks his hand and his foot in his first fight off a single punch and a single kick to a Sumo. He fights later and beats a (JKD?--don't remember) guy with his broken hand/foot. He loses to Royce in the final match. By that time I think he'd taped up, but he was basically punching with swollen/busted limbs, and couldn't do anything --not that he could have beaten Royce anyways.

UFC 5-Andy Andersen vs. John Hess. John Hess comes out of his corner like a half-retarded, wounded beast, and clobbers Andy Andersen around like a rubber ducky in the worst fight with hte worst technique I've ever seen, and breaks his hands. An alternate finishes the tournament for him.

Dude, broken bones in hands and feet were common in the early UFC's. It takes hand conditioning to hit a human skull. Ain't much padding in your head, 'less you wool-headed.


Running is to develop conditioning, not to build fighting skills/tools.

Um, conditioning is skill/tool #1. If you can't last more than a minute at full-blast, you can't fight. It works fluidity, breathing, cardio, stress endurance, footwork, and builds up those calves so you know how to launch forward off them for a great overhand or straight....even a jab. In a fight, you move or you get pounded. If there's one thing I think WC needs, it's more movement...LOL.....


Instead of going in with a theory of how you believe you should fight, how you beleive you should train, etc. -- most of which will probably be wrong -- it is better just to seek out proven good fighters and fight trainers to work with, and let nature take its course.


F'n A, bro.

[Redrooster]

" don't recall "many" fights stopping due to broken hands (I don't remember any, fwiw). Perhaps you could provide some evidence to support your claim?

And -- boxers using their heads to block fists? Turn your hip into a blow to break their fist? This is fantasy stuff."

Im going to assume your idea of "fantasy" are facts beyond your knowledge base.

I dont believe I said fights were stopped, I said fighters couldnt continue, meaning in their next fight.If I didnt say that, that is what I meant,and one the other posters has reminded me some were stopped during the fight.

As to the bare knuckle fighters using their heads or hips to break hands, these were very elementary and common techniques. Do some research before you spout off.


"Your history is wrong as is your conclusion (horizontal fists break more easily). The veritical fist is common in TCMAs."

Horizontal fists do break more easily and its just a matter of bone structure and alignment of the fist in relation to the forearm (power line).
This is common knowledge to anyone who has fought bare knuckled. Theres a couple hundred years of experience in the british isles alone to atest to this.
Even today modern boxers who throw hard shots have to wrap their hands nearly in plaster of paris to protect them from throwing horizontal fists and hooks to the head, these blows take a terrible toll on the hand simply because of the force applied and bone structure involved. If they werent wearing gloves they could never throw hooks or horizontal fists to the head.

I was not aware that vertical fists were common amongst TCMA's, I knew they werent in japanes and Korean who favor the horizontal. So I learned something today.

"Running is to develop conditioning, not to build fighting skills/tools. To learn and/or develop skills/tools, we need to practice using/doing that skill/tool as we will use/do it in fighting; you don't learn/develop a skill by not doing it. When you do unrealistic exercises you are not using the WCK movements, tools, actions, etc. as you will use them in fighting so you can't learn/develop a fighting skill since you arenot doing it."

Conditioning is a tool.

Like I said before a boxers speed bag does not have direct application in the ring other than honing a skill- speed and coordination, which is what sensativity drills are designed to as well. As to their efficacy I cant say as Ive not done them. I do kind agree with you though as far as time used in these drills may better be used in sparring later on.

"Of course the "stakes" are different but the "stakes" don't determine the skills that you need to be successful (just the consequences if you are not). The skills needed to escape the mount, for example, remain the same whether in a ring or fighting for your life. There aren't different sets of skills for each fighting environment. Fighting is fighting and uses the same skills."

Im going to have to continue to disagree, although I do now see your point. The stakes make a real fight potentially far more violent, you are right generally that skills are skills but if faced with a dire outcome biting , blinding, fishhooking, neck breaking, eye gouging and even finger breaking come into play making a whole new game. Most of these things are not difficult to apply. The early olympics pankration champions often won by breaking the fingers of the opponents rendering them unable to continue. After too many years of this they had to CHANGE THE RULES.

So in general I agree good skills are good skills and help in either a ring or real fight, but the skills to win a serious violent encounter may be quite different as well.


"Instead of looking to the past (Dempsey and Lee) or to low level guys (Irish Gypsy bareknucklers), why not look to really good, proven fighters and really good, proven methods of strategy, teachnique, training? Dempsey may have been good *for his day*, but boxing has advanced, has evolved, because boxers have taken what he brought to the game and taken it to new levels"

Jack Dempsey would wipe the floor with todays fighters as far as bare knuckle fights or boxing goes. He beat jess Willard who was I believe 6'5 and 240 lbs when Dempsey was 175 lbs roughly. Willard was a giant man and had pummuled everyone he fought including former champ jack johnson who was great in his own right. With gloves on Dempsey broke Willards cheek bones in four places, his orbital, his jaw and numerous ribs. How many modern fighters can do that kind of damage to an opponent outweighing him by 70 lbs or better? None.
At age 70 Dempsey was attacked in NYC by two young muggers, two punches were thrown, the muggers were still unconcious when the police arrived. Jack was BAD. Jack was a great bare knckler and and a great gloved boxer.

As to your bigger point, yes there are alot of very very good fighters today in terms of MMA style. In fact i would go on to say that the average skill level of todays NHB fighters is far better than any time in the past. The only time period to match it would be the London prize rules days in Britain. LPR werebare knuckle fighters who could also throw the opponents with Cornish wrestling maneauvers which were very judo like and may have had common roots. Ground fighting was not allowed but since the fighters were also cornish wrestler ( similar to catch) imsure they could have gone there. Many of the fights were won fron throws, as they did not fight on spring loaded rings, they fought on the ground outside.I think this says something about Judo and the again the difference ina real fight and one in the ring.

I generally agree with where your coming from though T. Practice like you fight to get the most out of your training. All true.

RR

[Redrooster]

Back to the topic at hand....

I can only speculate using my limited knowledge of WC tactics but it seems to me there might be four reasons its not seen widely.

1. WC strategy is forward pushing and aggresive. Ive read that in China NHB tournaments (stand up only I assume) WC fighters often end up getting thrown. This makes sense considering this is the bread and butter of a Judo OR Jujitsu fighter.

2. WC loves to fight in the close range. This is great for a bar fight etc.. but in the MMA world there does seem to be a strong affinity for either longe range punching or ground fighting. The close range tends to be transitory in nature, going from punching to a take down. Consequently WC's best range is not perhaps a viable range for these competitions.

3. No grappling techniques. But in fairness MMA is all about hybrid stlyes anyway. I cant think of a single traditional stlye that can compete alone.

4. Lack of real sparing in training.

As I see it WC could be best of the TMA's in terms of stand up fighting. Its smart strategy, well rounded and aggressive.

If I win the powerball lottery tonight I will be sponsoring a no gloved stand up only no holds barred tournament. Id like to WC against Muat Thai, karate, TKD etc..


RR

[k gledhill]

#1 is incorrect but your right , many try to do it that way and it fails.....like chi-sao square on front and center ....not the way.

[golden arhat]

I have grappled with enough "grapplers" to feel comfortable that they do not have too much of an advantge over me.

but they do have an advantage over you


a HUGE one


go to an mma gym spar with the guys there

and u'l see what i mean

[t_niehoff]

UFC 1 - Gerdau breaks his hand and his foot in his first fight off a single punch and a single kick to a Sumo. He fights later and beats a (JKD?--don't remember) guy with his broken hand/foot. He loses to Royce in the final match. By that time I think he'd taped up, but he was basically punching with swollen/busted limbs, and couldn't do anything --not that he could have beaten Royce anyways.

UFC 5-Andy Andersen vs. John Hess. John Hess comes out of his corner like a half-retarded, wounded beast, and clobbers Andy Andersen around like a rubber ducky in the worst fight with hte worst technique I've ever seen, and breaks his hands. An alternate finishes the tournament for him.


OK,so out of five UFCs, and how many fights (30 or more), two guys broke their hands. And one of them had the worst technique you ever saw (maybe with good technique he wouldn't have broken his hands). And the point was?



Dude, broken bones in hands and feet were common in the early UFC's. It takes hand conditioning to hit a human skull. Ain't much padding in your head, 'less you wool-headed.


Oh, I remember - that "broken bones in hands and feet were common in the early UFC's". That's why you were able to point out only two (2 out of 30+ means "very common"? hmmm) examples. I see.

BTW, I never said it didn't take conditioning to fight. Of course it does.



Um, conditioning is skill/tool #1. If you can't last more than a minute at full-blast, you can't fight. It works fluidity, breathing, cardio, stress endurance, footwork, and builds up those calves so you know how to launch forward off them for a great overhand or straight....even a jab. In a fight, you move or you get pounded. If there's one thing I think WC needs, it's more movement...LOL.....


I completely agree.

[Shaolin Wookie]

OK,so out of five UFCs, and how many fights (30 or more), two guys broke their hands. And one of them had the worst technique you ever saw (maybe with good technique he wouldn't have broken his hands). And the point was?

Oh, I remember - that "broken bones in hands and feet were common in the early UFC's". That's why you were able to point out only two (2 out of 30+ means "very common"? hmmm) examples. I see.

BTW, I never said it didn't take conditioning to fight. Of course it does.

I completely agree.

LOL....I pointed the way with two examples off the top of my head where I could remember names and UFC #'s. There were plenty more. I don't give a **** one way or the other. I know, I own 'em on DVD, and there were plenty. So, just accept that someone offered you some info you didn't consider, can point to more, but doesn't b/c offering up evidence of "this other guy fought some dude and broke his hand in one of the other UFC's" isn't exactly pinpointing the obvious--which is that you were wrong on that point.:rolleyes: If I felt the need to prove myself further, I would. I don't, I don't care to go back and log early UFC injuries, so go right ahead and do it for me, or realize that believing they didn't happen doesn't refute the fact that they did happen...LOL....

Even with taped up fists, plenty of mainstream, highly-touted MMA/UFC matches in the past 5 years have led to broken fists, feet, etc. The reason you don't hear about them so much nowadays is that guys don't fight 3 matches in a row. They fight one; night's over. Funny thing is, you often don't realize your fist is busted until ten minutes after you fight. When I busted my finger (got it caught in a gi while getting thrown), I was like--ow, that stings--and then I punched with it for another hour, thinking it was just jammed a little. But no, it was broken. An hour later, it swelled up twice its size and I felt it. So don't be surprised that fighters fight through their broken bones and you, as a viewer, don't see them break.

You said cardio wasn't a fighting-related skill. It was corollary. I say it's the foundation. You can't fight without cardio. Just like you might be able to drive NASCAR 'cuz you have the driving skills, but your car isn't going anywhere without an engine. (BTW, NASCAR sucks....LOL.....)

[t_niehoff]

Im going to assume your idea of "fantasy" are facts beyond your knowledge base.

I dont believe I said fights were stopped, I said fighters couldnt continue, meaning in their next fight.If I didnt say that, that is what I meant,and one the other posters has reminded me some were stopped during the fight.

As to the bare knuckle fighters using their heads or hips to break hands, these were very elementary and common techniques. Do some research before you spout off. [/B]


So you can't supply any evidence of people who couldn't continue in the UFCs?

Using heads/hips to break hands is fantasy, stories notwithstanding.



Horizontal fists do break more easily and its just a matter of bone structure and alignment of the fist in relation to the forearm (power line).
This is common knowledge to anyone who has fought bare knuckled. Theres a couple hundred years of experience in the british isles alone to atest to this.
Even today modern boxers who throw hard shots have to wrap their hands nearly in plaster of paris to protect them from throwing horizontal fists and hooks to the head, these blows take a terrible toll on the hand simply because of the force applied and bone structure involved. If they werent wearing gloves they could never throw hooks or horizontal fists to the head.


They would still wrap their hands even with "vertical fists." The alignment -- vertical or horizontal -- of the fist hasabsolutely nothing to do with the "strength"of the fist. That's a myth. Look at how karate "breakers" use a horizontal fist. The alignment has more to dowith the type of punch (try throwing an overhand with a vertical fist) and, asin the case of WCK, with the corresponding alignment of the elbow (wrist comes out, so does elbow).



I was not aware that vertical fists were common amongst TCMA's, I knew they werent in japanes and Korean who favor the horizontal. So I learned something today.


It's not surprising since any contact (attached) fighting method will want to keep their elbows down, so they will punch with their elbows down, which requires a vertical fist.



Conditioning is a tool.


As I see it, a fighting "tool" is a movement, skill, action -- something that you use to perform a task. In tennis, for example, a dropshot or a cross court forehand drive are tools. Your conditioning is your bodies preparedness to play the game, to use the tools.



Like I said before a boxers speed bag does not have direct application in the ring other than honing a skill- speed and coordination, which is what sensativity drills are designed to as well. As to their efficacy I cant say as Ive not done them. I do kind agree with you though as far as time used in these drills may better be used in sparring later on.


You can't compare chi sao to a speed bag -- since people are actually taught "applications" of WCK tools/technqiues/skills as a part of chi sao (that's aprt of learning the game of chi sao, and in fact, you couldn't do chi sao without both sides deliberately staying within WCK parameters). And, chi sao is not a sensitivity drill other than in the sense that any contact drill will involve sensitivity.



Im going to have to continue to disagree, although I do now see your point. The stakes make a real fight potentially far more violent, you are right generally that skills are skills but if faced with a dire outcome biting , blinding, fishhooking, neck breaking, eye gouging and even finger breaking come into play making a whole new game. Most of these things are not difficult to apply. The early olympics pankration champions often won by breaking the fingers of the opponents rendering them unable to continue. After too many years of this they had to CHANGE THE RULES.

So in general I agree good skills are good skills and help in either a ring or real fight, but the skills to win a serious violent encounter may be quite different as well.


Foul tactics can work. But they are difficult to apply, just as difficult as anything else, and a person's ability to pull them off will depend on their - and their opponent's, of course - skill level. Do you think it easy to thumb someone in the eye? A good boxer can do it because they have developed the skill to hit someone in the eye with their fist. Someone with little punching skill will have little success trying to thumb. Same on the ground. Who do you think will be able to really bite successfully, a BJJ BB or someome with little ground skills?



Jack Dempsey would wipe the floor with todays fighters as far as bare knuckle fights or boxing goes. He beat jess Willard who was I believe 6'5 and 240 lbs when Dempsey was 175 lbs roughly. Willard was a giant man and had pummuled everyone he fought including former champ jack johnson who was great in his own right. With gloves on Dempsey broke Willards cheek bones in four places, his orbital, his jaw and numerous ribs. How many modern fighters can do that kind of damage to an opponent outweighing him by 70 lbs or better? None.
At age 70 Dempsey was attacked in NYC by two young muggers, two punches were thrown, the muggers were still unconcious when the police arrived. Jack was BAD. Jack was a great bare knckler and and a great gloved boxer.


And he was fighting people that weren't very good by today's standards. For his time he was great. It's the same for all atheltics -- the atheltes, technical aspects, training methods, etc. have all improved.



As to your bigger point, yes there are alot of very very good fighters today in terms of MMA style. In fact i would go on to say that the average skill level of todays NHB fighters is far better than any time in the past. The only time period to match it would be the London prize rules days in Britain. LPR werebare knuckle fighters who could also throw the opponents with Cornish wrestling maneauvers which were very judo like and may have had common roots. Ground fighting was not allowed but since the fighters were also cornish wrestler ( similar to catch) imsure they could have gone there. Many of the fights were won fron throws, as they did not fight on spring loaded rings, they fought on the ground outside.I think this says something about Judo and the again the difference ina real fight and one in the ring.

I generally agree with where your coming from though T. Practice like you fight to get the most out of your training. All true.

RR

It is easy to romaticize the past -- to believe that they were GIANTS. But like all forms of athletics, the atheltes today have gotten much, much better. They know more technique, have more access to good info and training partners, know more about how to train effectively, have better nutrition, etc.

[t_niehoff]

You said cardio wasn't a fighting-related skill. It was corollary. I say it's the foundation. You can't fight without cardio. Just like you might be able to drive NASCAR 'cuz you have the driving skills, but your car isn't going anywhere without an engine. (BTW, NASCAR sucks....LOL.....)

I agree with you that conditioning (IME, conditioning is your bodies preparedness to fight which includes cardio but is morethan cardio) is all-important. But it isn't a skill (which is a learned or acquired way of performing some task).

[Shaolin Wookie]

Agree to disagree. Give me a dude in top condition with a little boxing, and then give me an overweight WC instructor with top skills, and I'll bet on the boxer every time. Your conditioning is your engine. An out-of-shape fighter is a guy relying on his memory, not the present.

We'll just have to agree to disagree. It's a silly point anyways, if we agree conditioning is one of the most important foundations.....;)

[Redrooster]

Terrance it has become clear to me that you know nothing of the past , less of human anatomy, lack any sort of research skills and are really here only to tout yourself , your methodology and throw a drunken monkey wrench into an otherwise intellegent discussion.

Most of your ideas are the "fantasy".

Heads and hips breaking fists are facts. many on this forum have had serious problems even with wrapped hands, let alone bare fists. There are two hundred year old boxing manuals on line for you read, if you have the patience, that go into detail on these subjects. But types like you arent interested in learning only in spouting off. It appears youve taken too many shots to the head as you dont even make sense, have no basis for your arguments, and ignore people on the thread who have actual experiences in such matters or have pointed out the truths of what Im saying.

Research before you spout off. And your "opinions"arent facts.

RR

[Alan Orr]

RE:

Horizontal fists do break more easily and its just a matter of bone structure and alignment of the fist in relation to the forearm (power line).
This is common knowledge to anyone who has fought bare knuckled. Theres a couple hundred years of experience in the british isles alone to atest to this.
Even today modern boxers who throw hard shots have to wrap their hands nearly in plaster of paris to protect them from throwing horizontal fists and hooks to the head, these blows take a terrible toll on the hand simply because of the force applied and bone structure involved. If they werent wearing gloves they could never throw hooks or horizontal fists to the head.

Alan : I have to agree with this. I have studied a lot of old boxing books. I know a lot of modern boxers as well. Most boxers I know have broken hands more that a few times, and thats with protection. You can punch with all sorts of punches so T is right on its alignment as well. But on the whole its much easier to break your hand with modern boxing striking, as one they mostly don't focus the strike in the way Wing Chun should. It you just throw hands, then you will get hurt.

I have hit hips and elbows before, not good.

Both have good points.

Lets not be so personal to make our points guys

My best

Alan

[Ultimatewingchun]

I've hit people in real fights (way back in the day) with full power horizontal hooks and rear crosses...and I'm thinking right now of 2 different guys who went to the floor after taking just one of these punches - with no damage to my hands/wrists whatsover on either occasion. (Or any other occasion, for that matter).

If you know how to punch properly and you pick your spots - and don't just throw bombs all over the place - bareknuckled punching, be it horizontal or vertical, shouldn't be much of a concern.

[Knifefighter]

But on the whole its much easier to break your hand with modern boxing striking, as one they mostly don't focus the strike in the way Wing Chun should. It you just throw hands, then you will get hurt.

I completely disagree with this. The reason boxers break their hands regularly is because they hit with such tremendous power.

A horizontal punch results from a rotation at the shoulder joint. There in no difference in structural alignment at the wrist joint.

[Knifefighter]

In a real fight I dont want to be on the ground under any circumstances.

How much takedown defense do you practice?




If your on

the bottom like a BJJ player, your in a world of trouble from biting, foreign objects

or thumbs in your eyes , fishooking etc.

If a BJJ practitioner has someone in his guard, the chances are the person in the guard is more vulnerable to bites, and thumbs in the eyes.



from a mounted posisition you are vulnerable from attack from others.

Some of you guys must live in a parallel universe to me. In my world, you are just as likely to get blindsided from someone's friend while you are standing as you are on the ground. It must be nice to only have to worry about that kind of stuff when you "want" to take the fight to the ground.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I completely disagree with this. The reason boxers break their hands regularly is because they hit with such tremendous power.

A horizontal punch results from a rotation at the shoulder joint. There in no difference in structural alignment at the wrist joint.

Correct, even with all the tape and the padding in the gloves, when the fist makes contact with the head or a bone "block" like an elbow, it can break.
Some old school coaches advocate training bare knuckle on the heavier, denser "marciano" Heavy bags to "condition" the fist for heavy contact.
I punch and, being from a TJMA background, I concentrate on hitting with the big knuckles of the index and middle fingers, only broke my hand badly once and that was doing a grading for my BB in TKD, punched a brick and smacked my hand on the floor under it.
I know a few guys that punch vertical with the last 3 knuckles and they punch like mules.
Its a tomato/tomahtoe thing really.

[Alan Orr]

I completely disagree with this. The reason boxers break their hands regularly is because they hit with such tremendous power.

A horizontal punch results from a rotation at the shoulder joint. There in no difference in structural alignment at the wrist joint.

True they do have good power and that is a factor.

Punching with high shoulder rotation puts a lot of pressure back into the A/C joint, not so good for th joint.


Alignment may not be that different as such. But due to the angle of the punch the impact area is more of the problem

Best

Alan

[YungChun]

But on the whole its much easier to break your hand with modern boxing striking, as one they mostly don't focus the strike in the way Wing Chun should.

I agree.




I completely disagree with this. The reason boxers break their hands regularly is because they hit with such tremendous power.

A horizontal punch results from a rotation at the shoulder joint. There in no difference in structural alignment at the wrist joint.
BIG differences..

Standard Horizontal Fist <Seiken> must float, it is not locked into any position and therefore relies on forearm muscle dynamic tension to maintain fist position.. Elbow ends up being turned outside.. Impact on first two knuckles tends to tear these apart on impact from rest of fist through shearing.. >boxer's fracture..

Wrist is locked up with WCK vertical punch.. Locked up allows for several different things in play.. Better energy transfer; more relaxed arm; stronger locked wrist position; up tilt fist is
more natural to slide on/stick onto opponent's bridge for conversion to energy issuing from the--->elbow, whose alignment is under the punch and better aligned with body--the hammer. Bottom fist impact tends to compact fist tighter not pull apart.

[t_niehoff]

I completely disagree with this. The reason boxers break their hands regularly is because they hit with such tremendous power.

A horizontal punch results from a rotation at the shoulder joint. There in no difference in structural alignment at the wrist joint.

Actually, you are both (Alan and Dale) right. If you look into what sort of punches tend to break hands, you'll see I think that it is most often hooks/swings where people break their hands. Those sorts of punches generate more power than straight punches (WCK variety or boxing variety) -- think tahi round kick versus straight kick -- and the alignment is more variable, both of which lead to more injuries.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Actually, you are both (Alan and Dale) right. If you look into what sort of punches tend to break hands, you'll see I think that it is most often hooks/swings where people break their hands. Those sorts of punches generate more power than straight punches (WCK variety or boxing variety) -- think tahi round kick versus straight kick -- and the alignment is more variable, both of which lead to more injuries.

Because people tend to NOT train to hit a hard freaking target with those above punches bare handed, no matter what, conditoning of the hand is crucial when bare handed contact is a possibility, even in boxing where, 99.95&#37; of the time the hand is padded, couple that with correct hitting angle for the UNPADDED fist.

[aaron baum]

apologies for back tracking to the original question...but we use WC in the ring and its all good...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epCbRTofOHw

best

aaron

[sanjuro_ronin]

apologies for back tracking to the original question...but we use WC in the ring and its all good...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epCbRTofOHw

best

aaron

Did the cameraman get chi blasted ??

[reneritchie]

People in the UFC/MMA don't tend to use any one system any more. Some of them do know or have trained in WCK, and still use what they feel worked well for them.

Little known trivia - I've actually Chi Sao'd with a UFC Champion!
(Though he hadn't trained WCK for years).

[t_niehoff]

People in the UFC/MMA don't tend to use any one system any more. Some of them do know or have trained in WCK, and still use what they feel worked well for them.

Little known trivia - I've actually Chi Sao'd with a UFC Champion!
(Though he hadn't trained WCK for years).

Yeah, Matt Serra's wing chun training has paid off! ;)

[sihing]

Yeah, Matt Serra's wing chun training has paid off! ;)

Well he probably has been training his SNT for years now, and I haven't seen him wearing his kung fu slippers at all on TUF show this season, so what do you expect? Without those two important elements present, how the heck is he supposed to be able to use it:):rolleyes:

James

[reneritchie]

Hey, c'mon now, Niehoff, it coulda been Anderson Silva. Them Brazilians have a long history of WCK too!

[t_niehoff]

Hey, c'mon now, Niehoff, it coulda been Anderson Silva. Them Brazilians have a long history of WCK too!


I happen to know that you used dim mak when doing chi sao with Serra and this is what caused his disc to rupture! I suspect this is part of some Canadian conspiracy to make GSP champion. ;)

[reneritchie]

If I knew Dim Mak, I would be UFC champion! Besides, I last met Serra almost 5 years ago, so that would be some slow acting Kung Fu!

Seriously, however, Serra is awesome, and incredible athlete who can also just feel mistakes that people are making and correct them on-the-fly. I'm really sad for him, and hope he heals up fast and well.

It's an incredible opportunity for GSP, and the local crowd here is in full thrill mode. As much as I will miss Serra/Hughes, I hope GSP does well and gets a rematch with Serra down the road. Maybe Serra/Hughes can follow on after that.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I happen to know that you used dim mak when doing chi sao with Serra and this is what caused his disc to rupture! I suspect this is part of some Canadian conspiracy to make GSP champion. ;)

Canadian Ninjas have been dispatched to take you out, nice knowing you.
:D

[reneritchie]

Snow-shoe tabis, fur lined kimono, and razor sharp hockey sticks with detachable chain-link handles, and exploding Timbits.

Sionara, eh!

[Satori Science]

some people are good @ what they do others are not. Some people train hard and to many others don't.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynyypQ-wa2Q

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jB3sfXnZyyA

[couch]

Snow-shoe tabis, fur lined kimono, and razor sharp hockey sticks with detachable chain-link handles, and exploding Timbits.

Sionara, eh!

Love that local boy GSP.

Cheered for him in AB and now in NS!

I hope he takes the win. UFC will definitely be worth the PPV order this Christmas season!

Best,
Kenton Sefcik

[reneritchie]

I used to go to UCC/TKO and watch GSP live. One event, he pinned a guy in modified scarf and then, when the guy covered up, grabbed the guy and slammed the guy's head into the mat over and over until he got the TKO.

No one knew if it was legal or not; indeed the rules didn't cover anything like that, so the win stood.

GSP was on a tear from that day on...