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Scott
01-17-2001, 01:55 AM
Hey =) I'm a lowly Wing Chun practicioner here. I was wondering if anyone could give me directions on a few SIMPLE meditation exercises, to energize (preferably) and another to relax.. if this is possible. I know Chi Gung is dangerous if you don't know exactly what you're doing, so i'm hoping for something simple, please? =) Thank you.

-Scott

"You have to consider the possibility that god does not like you; he never wanted you. In all probability, he hates you. It is not until we have lost everything that we can do anything."

Shaolin Master
01-17-2001, 02:00 AM
Without being technical and writing a book :

"Zhan Zhuang" - stand in one place (knees slightly bent) for an hour or so (Do not flinch nor move) concentrate on equal length in breaths and out breaths, making them longer and longer sinking your body & Breath deeper and deeper.

This as simple as it seems will do wonders for you.

Regards

Shi Chan Long

DragonStudios
01-17-2001, 06:52 AM
Sit down and try not talking to yourself in your head. Great way to get rid of negative feelings/energy, etc. You'll feel great afterwards too. If you have any trouble turning off the dialogue (it's not as easy as it sounds), let me know and I'll throw you some pointers.

Without going outside, you may know the whole world.
Without looking through the window, you may see the ways of heaven.
The ****her you go, the less you know.
--Lao Tsu

3BladesFighter
01-17-2001, 03:52 PM
i have trouble turning off my internal dialogue most of the time. i need some pointers.

^
|
can it get simpler than that?

"Build from the past, live in the present, and ignore the future. What you do now determines what happens later" -Phoenix

GLW
01-17-2001, 08:22 PM
Ok...try:

Stand with your feet a shoulder width apart..relaxed

Place your hands one on the other about 2 to 3 inches below your navel on your abdomen. (Which hand on top...some say it makes a difference, male/female, etc...but in reality it is not a big deal...be comfortable and natural...)

Align your spine and relax.

Touch your tongue to the roof of your mouth. lightly...not tightly close your eyes.

Breath in through the nose and the tongue touches the roof of the mouth. The mouth is slightly open.

Breath out through the mouth and nose and let the tongue break the connection to the rof of the mouth...This is the basic breathing...

Mentally go with each breath to a different part of your body and think to relax it until you are as relaxed as you can get and remain standing.

Now, as you breathe in, instead of thinking 500 things, think "Quiet". As you breathe out, think "Calm".

do this is a quiet and comfortable area with no distractions.

As you get better at this, the thoughts will become unnecessary.

As you practice, keep reviewing your posture to relax more and more. Breathe from the abdomen (lower Tan Tien) and breathe naturally with no forcings and definitely do not hold your breath.

This is the most basic still - standing Qi Gong method around....and a good starting point.

DragonStudios
01-17-2001, 08:23 PM
The mind wants to talk all the time. When it's focused it moves us logically through tasks/techniques until it's bored or fatigued, or is influenced by emotions like fear, depression, or anger then it has this tendency to wander. When coupled with the above listed emotions this can lead to self-degradation and low esteem when trying to accomplish tasks. Turning off the dialogue allows the mind to rest when its not needed. However, the mind doesn't like to rest. How often have you been kept up for hours in bed because your mind just wouldn't shut up?

Some pointers for turning off the internal dialogue:

Counting the Breaths
(this is a great Zen training technique)

Sit in a comfortable position.
Close your eyes, let the tip of the tongue touch the roof of your mouth
Relax your body
Relax your breathing (breathe slow and deep through your nose)
With each inhale and exhale quietly count to yourself (i.e.: inhale 1, exhale 2, inhale 3, exhale 4, etc.)
Don't drag the words out to match the breathing(i.e.: ooooonnnnneeee). It's the point between counts where the mind learns to relax
Here's the fun part... If you catch your mind talking you have to start over counting at 1 on the next inhale


This can be a very frustrating training, and will take some time before you can easily get to 10 in your counting without talking to yourself.

Once you are able to easily reach 10, switch to just counting the inhales. After a while you should be able to completely drop the counting and just turn off the dialogue every time you sit in meditation.

However, as I said above, this can be really frustrating and may not work for you. If you try it for a while and it doesn't do the trick, let me know and I'll tell you about another technique or two that I know.

Without going outside, you may know the whole world.
Without looking through the window, you may see the ways of heaven.
The ****her you go, the less you know.
--Lao Tsu

Qiman
01-17-2001, 11:26 PM
Ok, meditation made easy by Qiman.

1. Sit in dark room.

2. Feet flat on floor with hands in lap.

3. Pick a vowel sound A, E, I, O, or U.

4. Breath in.(deep)

5. Make vowel sound in deep tone as exhale.

6. Repeat.

7. Practice 10 minutes, add minutes as desired.

o
01-18-2001, 12:28 AM
Zazen was originally a yogic system of meditation. The Buddhists use this technique; especially Zen Buddhism (Soto Zen sect place this as number one to work on).

There are many benefits. Originally, zazen was intended to aid in achieving the enlightenment experience. Nowadays, people still use it for this purpose but some use it strictly for health reasons. It is a great technique to reduce, if not eliminate, stress. There are 5 types of Zen (at least you could generalize them this way). The highest is for spiritual enlighenment. The function of zazen to aliviate stress would be characterized as 'bompu' Zen, the lowest level. The next is to increase you 'joriki' (or concentration/samadhi power). You'd be amazed at what you could do with this stuff. With enough of this, you can cultivate extraordinary powers... I forget the third level of Zen. The fourth is the koan practice and the fifth is shikan-taza (a type of zazen). I found these characterizations in the book, "The Three Pillars of Zen" by Roshi Philip Kapleau. (I recommend this book).

There are a few different postures to perform zazen in. The most recommended is the full lotus. If you can't do this one, then the half lotus is good. If not this, then the Burmese position. If not this, then seiza. If not this, then just sit in a chair. The reason you would use a chair would be because your legs aren't flexible enough for the former positions (for detailed instructions on how to stretch legs, check the "lotus position--help" post in either the Kung fu main forum or the internal one). The postures are all explained at:
<<< http://www.mro.org/zmm/zazen.shtml >>>>

There are no bad side effects to zazen; the only side effects are good health and concentration. If you consider soar legs at the beginning a bad side effect, then I guess there's only that to worry about. If you reach a high level training, more fruit will come. The only way to hurt yourself (internally) with zazen is to incorporate the qi. However, even this is unlikely to damage you because it is the most elementary method (that of placing all the qi in the dantien - 2-4 inches below navel). You do not have to employ the qi techniques if you do not want to.

At the following sites you can find detailed instructions in zazen.

meditationtherapy.com/Zazen.html

www.mro.org/zmm/zazen.shtml (http://www.mro.org/zmm/zazen.shtml)

www.dx.sakura.ne.jp/~kameno/zazen/fukan.html (http://www.dx.sakura.ne.jp/~kameno/zazen/fukan.html)

dmoz.org/Society/Religion_and_Spirituality/Buddhism/Zen/Meditation (this one has links to zazen pages.)


A teacher is recommended for zazen but you could start off without one. But as you progress, you will need the teacher. (Especially when you encounter makyo.)

o
01-18-2001, 12:35 AM
Zazen was originally a yogic system of meditation. The Buddhists use this technique; especially Zen Buddhism (Soto Zen sect place this as number one to work on).

There are many benefits. Originally, zazen was intended to aid in achieving the enlightenment experience. Nowadays, people still use it for this purpose but some use it strictly for health reasons. It is a great technique to reduce, if not eliminate, stress. There are 5 types of Zen (at least you could generalize them this way). The highest is for spiritual enlighenment. The function of zazen to aliviate stress would be characterized as 'bompu' Zen, the lowest level. The next is to increase you 'joriki' (or concentration/samadhi power). You'd be amazed at what you could do with this stuff. With enough of this, you can cultivate extraordinary powers... I forget the third level of Zen. The fourth is the koan practice and the fifth is shikan-taza (a type of zazen). I found these characterizations in the book, "The Three Pillars of Zen" by Roshi Philip Kapleau. (I recommend this book).

There are a few different postures to perform zazen in. The most recommended is the full lotus. If you can't do this one, then the half lotus is good. If not this, then the Burmese position. If not this, then seiza. If not this, then just sit in a chair. The reason you would use a chair would be because your legs aren't flexible enough for the former positions (for detailed instructions on how to stretch legs, check the "lotus position--help" post in either the Kung fu main forum or the internal one). The postures are all explained at:
<<< http://www.mro.org/zmm/zazen.shtml >>>>

There are few, if any, negative side effects to zazen; however there are numerous positve side effects such as good health, release from stess, detachment from the illusory world, purification of the mind, and concentration. If you consider soar legs at the beginning a bad side effect, then I guess there's only that to worry about. If you reach a high level training, more fruit will come. The only way to hurt yourself (internally) with zazen is to incorporate the qi. However, even this is unlikely to damage you because it is the most elementary method (that of placing all the qi in the dantian: 2 - 4 inches below navel). You do not have to employ the qi techniques if you do not want to.

At the following sites, you can find detailed instructions in zazen.

meditationtherapy.com/Zazen.html

www.mro.org/zmm/zazen.shtml (http://www.mro.org/zmm/zazen.shtml)

www.dx.sakura.ne.jp/~kameno/zazen/fukan.html (http://www.dx.sakura.ne.jp/~kameno/zazen/fukan.html)

dmoz.org/Society/Religion_and_Spirituality/Buddhism/Zen/Meditation (this one has links to zazen pages.)


A teacher is recommended for zazen but you could start off without one. But as you progress, you will need the teacher. (Especially when you encounter makyo.)


If you have questions, just email me at go2tom@hotmail.co

o
01-18-2001, 12:41 AM
I didn't know that my first reply went through, so I tried again. Ignore one.

Listen to Dragonstudio; he has some good pointers. What he is refering is introductory zazen.

3BladesFighter
01-21-2001, 03:45 PM
thanks, DS, but i also need some other pointers, i don't want to take too much out of your time, though. gimme whatcha got, brethren

"Build from the past, live in the present, and ignore the future. What you do now determines what happens later" -Phoenix

DragonStudios
01-21-2001, 07:33 PM
No worries on time (I always have time to teach), I just didn't want to give you too much at one time. The next step is to focus on the breath. This helps to quiet the mind but still gives it something to focus on.

1) Following the Breath:

This one is painfully simple. As you inhale imagine following the air coming into your nose all the way down into your lungs. As you exhale, follow it back out through your nose. At first you'll take sharp breaths (not necessarily fast, but audible inside your skull), then you'll find you can breath without making a sound. Your thinking mind will enjoy focusing on this and will be lulled into silence. However, it can become bored the next time you try it. When this happens, just imagine all of the words becoming capsulated, say to yourself: "thinking," and push the words out of your mind. The focus on the breathing is the key, a discipline you can drag your mind back to (much like when you're reading, and some word or phrase makes your mind wander for a moment, you have re-focus on the writing to continue).

2) The Swinging Door:

After you're used to following the breath into the lungs, focus on your nose and the air as it is drawn in and pushed out. My Sifu called this the point where the big chi intermingles with the little chi. Capsulate (as described above) when your mind starts to babble.

3) Shikan Taza (sp?) (Just Listen):

As the weather and your geography permits, get out into a secluded area (Mountains, forest, by a creek/river, etc.) sit down and just listen. See how many distinct things you can hear around you. As your mind attempts to categorize the sounds, let them go and capsulate your thoughts. Become one with each sound.

Without going outside, you may know the whole world.
Without looking through the window, you may see the ways of heaven.
The ****her you go, the less you know.
--Lao Tsu

brucelee2
01-21-2001, 08:49 PM
Can any of you zen practitioners post your favorite /the best books on zen out there?

thanks

DragonStudios
01-21-2001, 11:14 PM
A book on Zen is a contradiction in terms, but...

Returning to Silence by Dainin Katagiri

Zen Flesh, Zen Bones compiled by Paul Reps

Zen and the Art of Archery by Eugen Herrigel

Without going outside, you may know the whole world.
Without looking through the window, you may see the ways of heaven.
The ****her you go, the less you know.
--Lao Tsu

brucelee2
01-22-2001, 03:00 AM
Can anyone explain the essential difference between the different 'schools' of zen? I think I remember reading that some are more hardcore than others.

thanks

DragonStudios
01-22-2001, 08:27 AM
The best description I ever heard regarding the difference between the Soto and Rinzai sects of Japanese Zen Buddhism is: "if a practioner of Soto Zen wanted an apple, he would sit under the apple tree until it dropped into his lap, whereas if a Rinzai student wanted an apple he would persistently, but gently, shake the tree until it fell.

Rinzai emphasizes koans for help in meditation. Common koans are "what is the sound of one hand clapping," or "what was your face before your parents were born?" These simple puzzles give you mind something to focus on while you sit in meditation. But here's the trick... the thinking mind can't answer these questions. Only the meditative or instinctual mind can, as the answers can not be expressed by words (even Bart Simpson couldn't "tell" us what the sound of one hand clapping is, he had to show us).

Korean Chogye Zen is pretty much derived from the Rinzai school.

Soto focuses more on the meditation practices I've described above, particularly Shiken Taza (sp?). I learned, study, and practice Soto Zen.

Without going outside, you may know the whole world.
Without looking through the window, you may see the ways of heaven.
The ****her you go, the less you know.
--Lao Tsu

o
01-22-2001, 08:46 AM
Generally speaking, Rinzai sect focuses on koan work and Soto on zazen, as mentioned above. The Rinzai postulate that since the enlightenment experience is sudden in itself, the cultivation should be a quick process and thus they make use of koans. The Soto think that the ripening will happen naturally and that you shouldn't rush enlightenment. Thus, they sit doing shikan taza or other zazen.

Nowadays, the division is not that distinct. Some Soto dojos do koans and some Rinzai dojos do zazen practice. The two practices are not mutually exclusive though. A practitioner can do both koans and zazen (though not at the same time, obviously). Generally, zazen should precede koan work because with it one tremendously increases joriki (samadhi/concentration power) which is needed to attain a "stronger" or "fuller" enlightenment.

There are more divisions to Zen than just Rinzai and Soto though. These two were just the products of the Japanese (Lin Ji and Dogen, respectively). Originally Zen was the Dyana of India. Then it was the Chan of China. Then it was the Zen of Japan. These are all the same thing but were slightly different adaptations to the differing peoples with the unifying factor of the Bodhi mind (and passing down the Dharma). If you want a good breakdown of Zen you should refer to "The Complete Book of Zen" by Wong Kiew Kit.

Also, here's a web site which outlines the different schools of Zen: www.ciolek.com/WWWVLPages/ZenPages/ZenSchools.htm (http://www.ciolek.com/WWWVLPages/ZenPages/ZenSchools.htm)

o
01-22-2001, 08:56 AM
www.ciolek.com/WWWVLPages/ZenPages/ZenSchools.html (http://www.ciolek.com/WWWVLPages/ZenPages/ZenSchools.html)

The previous url I mentioned needs an "l" at the end to work. For some reason, whenever I post something, the last character is always cut off. I wonder why.

dwid
01-22-2001, 03:41 PM
I can't remember the name, but it differs from the others in that practitioners play the flute as part of their meditation practice. From my understanding, this is probably the least widespread of all the zen schools.

_________________________________________
The way of the samurai is in desperateness. Ten men or more cannot kill such a man. Common sense will not accomplish great things. Simply become insane and desperate. - Hagakure

brucelee2
01-22-2001, 07:35 PM
Thanks guys. Does anyone know the essential difference (in practice, not theory, belief, etc..) of the different schools of Buddhism? (Theraveda, Tibetan, ....) Do most of them have some version of Zazen?

thanks
gary

DragonStudios
01-22-2001, 08:01 PM
If by zazen you mean meditation... then yes, most do have some form of meditation. However, this meditation can greatly differ from zazen (on the surface at least, all meditation has the same goals, and usually transmits the same experiences when practiced regularly and seriously). Historically, Buddhism tended to be very adaptable and inobtrusive, and whatever the innate culture practiced at the time was typically adapted to Buddhism. Therefore you can have one sect practicing chanting, another sitting meditation, another qigong, etc. all with ultimately the same goal, and all claiming to be Buddhist.

IMHO, Buddha's enlightenment came from meditation, so if there are Buddhist sects out there that don't practice some form of meditation, it would be like a Christian sect that didn't practice some form of prayer.

Without going outside, you may know the whole world.
Without looking through the window, you may see the ways of heaven.
The ****her you go, the less you know.
--Lao Tsu

o
01-23-2001, 12:21 AM
Hui-Neng, the 6th patriarch of Chinese Chan Buddhism, never practiced meditation and yet was considered a Buddhist. (He was enlightened after hearing a verse from a wandering boy that was chanting a sutra from the 5th patriarch.)

3BladesFighter
01-23-2001, 03:42 PM
thanks, you've improved my meditation tenfold, and if there is any way i can help you, just ask. and if you don't know what to ask for, i like to teach people of how to do stealth, chian kung, and sparring tips. thanks, brethren, and keep giving me info!

"Build from the past, live in the present, and ignore the future. What you do now determines what happens later" -Phoenix

origenx
01-23-2001, 08:56 PM
How do you do stealth?

Scott
01-24-2001, 07:58 AM
Thanks for the great answers everyone... You totally answered what I was looking for =) Now I have alot to think about and practice. Thanks everyone, especially you DragonStudios.

I know this is straying, but my first question was answered so well.. I'd like to know about stealth, too =P I've always thought this.. an important aspect of martial arts is self defense.. But no matter how incredible you are, there will always be fights you can't win.. I mean, even the BEST martial artist in the world in any style can't take on 9 or 10 people at once. So how do you get away? Wouldn't that be important?

-Scott

"You have to consider the possibility that god does not like you; he never wanted you. In all probability, he hates you. It is not until we have lost everything that we can do anything."

3BladesFighter
01-24-2001, 03:57 PM
stealth is stealth, it's the way you're able to get around without anyone noticing you, or being able to be detected less often, or making less sound, that's stealth.

"Build from the past, live in the present, and ignore the future. What you do now determines what happens later" -Phoenix

origenx
01-24-2001, 08:47 PM
shenchuan - ok, i know what stealth is, but what are special techniques to achieve it?

Kung Lek
01-24-2001, 09:38 PM
Hi-

There are two prominent schools of Zen thought and practice.

The sudden school, and the "not so sudden" school hahaha.

One prescribes to the idea that enlightenment is achieved in an epiphany and is not always sustainable.(sudden)

the other holds to the idea, that enlightenment will take place through the chanting of the buddhas name over and over again.

Both look to "empty" the mind to allow it to "fill" with certainty.

The "sudden" is closest to the originating practice of Ch'an which in turn was born of "pure Land" Buddhism brought to the Shaolin temple.

So much has been done to write about zen and ch'an and to categorize and pigeonhole concepts that are inherent to the practice. This is detrimental to the value of this type of meditation. The whole idea is to uncluster and undo all the dependency on explanation of what is occuring when the mind "clicks" on a truth of the self.

peace

Kung Lek

3BladesFighter
01-25-2001, 03:45 PM
okay to achieve stealth, you must breathe out less evenly, inhale 2 seconds, exhale 3 seconds. also, breathe must match the speed of movement, like 2 steps, inhale quickly for 2 quick seconds, 3 steps after, inhale quickly for 3 quick seconds.

and one very missed concept is to KEEP YOUR WEIGHT DOWN after jumping, don't keep it up, because that would be resisting, and resisting would only make things worse. when you keep your weight down, you land on the balls of your feet and imagine your weight going straight down.

training for stealth is to stand, then roll to the right, stand, roll to the left, etc. and find the best way to roll without making noise.

and finally, another training for stealth is to ask a friend to exit the room and enter in random seconds, and sense him coming, and then find a place to hide quickly, and blend in, and to do so, imagine yourself fitting in like a shadow.

"Build from the past, live in the present, and ignore the future. What you do now determines what happens later" -Phoenix

HuangKaiVun
01-26-2001, 05:38 AM
Personally, I think that most Zen temples (at least the famous ones) have not realized their full potential.

Many truly devout practitioners go into Zen, never to emerge again.

That's what a Zen priest once meant by "It stinks of Zen".

In the "Ox-Herding Pictures", the final level of Zen is the RETURN TO THE NORMAL WORLD, but with full awareness of one's life.

Unfortunately, most folks cling to their training as if it means more than they do.

prana
02-14-2001, 12:33 AM
I have been taught a few anologies in my past. I just thought I might blurt them out here
1. Like the bubbles that arise from the bed of the river, they come unexpectedly and then pass away.
2. Like the emergence of the beautiful lotus flower from the dirtiest of waters.
3. To keep your mind as still as a candle flame in a room with no wind, one pointedness.

Few very simple methods I have been taught.

1. Relax and watch your thoguhts, without being attached or avert towards your thoughts, watch as thoughts come and watch as they disappear.
2. Sit in lotus, eyes slightly open n gazing at the tip of the nose, tongue on the roof of the mouth. Pay no attention to anything but the breath, in and out. As the thoughts quietens and sharpens, but keep your thoughts sharpened like a candle flame.
3. I personally recommend my favourite, makes you very happy. Breathe normally, anywhere you go. When you breathe in, imagine breathing in all the suffering in the environment around you, for all beings, visible or non-visible. When you exhale, exhale white positive energy to the environment around you.

there's my 2 cents worth :)