Sparring With Headshots

[Ultimatewingchun]

Contact only below the neck doesn't cut it.

VERY limited in what it will do for you or tell you about yourself. If one is looking to test oneself and one's martial skills - then you've got to include headshots.

There's just no getting around it, imo.

Put on light gloves and headgear and go for it. And in fact, I think that sparring with no headshots, or training for no headshot events - and participating in them - can help develop bad habits and a false sense of security since you're not training to deal with blows going upstairs....thereby programing dangerous information into your muscle memory - and potentially leaving your head and face open to attacks if a real situation ever develops.

Comments?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Contact only below the neck doesn't cut it.

VERY limited in what it will do for you or tell you about yourself. If one is looking to test oneself and one's martial skills - then you've got to include headshots.

There's just no getting around it, imo.

Put on light gloves and headgear and go for it. And in fact, I think that sparring with no headshots, or training for no headshot events - and participating in them - can help develop bad habits and a false sense of security since you're not training to deal with blows going upstairs....thereby programing dangerous information into your muscle memory - and potentially leaving your head and face open to attacks if a real situation ever develops.

Comments?

I'm from kyokushin so...:D

Fact is, other than those schools that focus solely on competitions in which head shots are not allowed, there is no reason NOT to pad up and do headshots.

If you have a professional career and looking like lunchmeat is not an option, there are many helmets out there that will protect your face from the SIGNS of face-to-fist contact and still allow for the impact to be felt to keep training honest.

[Wu Wei Wu]

Train as you mean to fight.

[Ernie]

I have never sparred any other way . kept it to a minimum;) boxing gloves mouth piece and party time ! :D

I have also always known the difference

Chi sau is chi sau
playing is playing
sparring is sparring
and

fighting is fighting

most i see confuse all those things :cool:

[Alan Orr]

Contact only below the neck doesn't cut it.

VERY limited in what it will do for you or tell you about yourself. If one is looking to test oneself and one's martial skills - then you've got to include headshots.

There's just no getting around it, imo.

Put on light gloves and headgear and go for it. And in fact, I think that sparring with no headshots, or training for no headshot events - and participating in them - can help develop bad habits and a false sense of security since you're not training to deal with blows going upstairs....thereby programing dangerous information into your muscle memory - and potentially leaving your head and face open to attacks if a real situation ever develops.

Comments?

As far as a full test of your martial arts your are correct. Its called Boxing, kickboxing and an even bigger test is called MMA. Sparring is not fighting, it is a type of training.

In fact body sparring to start with, helps build control of stance and weight before you start striking the head. All types of training are good if you know what you are trying to get out of it.

But most people would like to test are the training methods they are using correct. IE does Gi Training help my grappling - yes, its been tested in Gi comps, then in Sub comps then in MMA. Does Judo training help - yes, its been tested in Judo Comps then in MMA. Does wrestling with no strikes at all, help me - yes, its been tested in wrestling meets and comp, then sub comps then MMA, which great results.

You really seem to be on overkill on this one victor. It's no big deal. As long as you have the same rules in a training session then you will both learn.

I am big fan of full contact training, I teach it and do it all the time. I also have many way to develop and teach different people with different skills.

When we train Chi Sao we strike hard to the body and control to the head in class. If someone what to push pass that agreed level they normally only need one hit to an corrected. We know what wil happen, we are trying to develop skill and control.

Its just training methods.

Regards

Alan

[Ultimatewingchun]

Good posts so far.

But I don't really see any overkill, Alan. Just calling it like I see it. Have been in the wing chun game since 1975 - and have been doing moderate-to-full contact sparring with protective gear including headshots since 1979. (That's 28 years now).

And all kinds of chi sao - from cooperative drilling to all out head and body shots that resulted in bloody faces, headaches, broken ribs, eye pokes that required doctor visits, etc.

And I too have many ways at this point of teaching/training my students (and myself) - based upon what I've learned and what I've observed after all these years.

But I must tell you unequivocally - I see no real value in any kind of "competitive" chi sao competitions whatsoever - or any sparring/fighting competitions that don't include headshots (provided protective gear is being worn, of course).

None whatsoever, for a multitude of reasons. And as I said in my first post - I actually think that such competitions promote bad habits that are harmful to one's overall training in martial arts.

But now I'm going to get specific...

Chi sao is not fighting - and should never be looked upon as anything more than a drill. Does that mean that after learning the basics of chi sao that one should never engage in anything competitve while doing chi sao?

No.

A few minutes within any given class or workout session of some competitive (or even highly competitive) chi sao can be good for one's development, in my experience...as long as THE GREAT BULK of one's "competitive" time (as opposed to "drilling" time) is spent competing as close as possible within the parameters of real fight conditions.

Which by definition must always include headshots.

Because chi sao helps to develop only a certain percentage of one's overall fight game - and no more.

And your overall fight game requires much more than what could ever be learned within the confines of chi sao - or any sparring without hitting upstairs.

So drilling and competition is necessary when using strikes and kicks (including knees and elbows)...drilling and competition is needed in the clinch range....drilling and competition is necessary for takedowns and their defenses...and both drilling and competitive rolling is required for the development of one's groundwork.

BUT THE MORE TIME SPENT BEING COMPETITIVE (including headshots) in ALL the ranges - the better it is.

That's my conclusion after all these years in martial arts.

REALISM...as much as possible. (But within the bounds of reasonable safety standards).

So that being the case - Why would I want to spend all the extra time necessary training to be ready to compete (or have my students ready to compete) in any kind of session/tournament/venue that I believe TAKES VALUABLE TIME AWAY FROM REALISTIC TRAINING???

It makes no sense to me.

But if it works for you, fine.

[k gledhill]

I agree that chi-sao cant be a competition...simply becasue its a devlopmental tool to an end ..not the end itself as many eroneously think....much of chi-sao is redundant once freefighting..its the 'live partner' drill /role playing , bringing life to our system through development of the lin sil di da that is our edge in 'freefighting'....turning it into a 'stick-fest' trapping festival...:confused:....
when someone works at chi-sao with the thought of simply beating/winning the exercise it means nothing to what they walk away with in development of the 'idea'...
I let people hit me ..just to see if it hurts ;) and if it doesnt ??? what exactly are you going to do in the fight if you cant hurt me at chi-sao distance ? and not trade punches for the sake of 'hit/tag' ..it will becoame a 'slow motion' to see the strikes ...points will be coerced from judges by self pointing against the opponent....

I used to approach chisao as many , doing rolling /sticking/ feeling...etc...but then I realized my mistake and corrected my approach to the drill..not as a structure /energy drill
feeling ...but as a way to improve the idea of the SLT arm strike idea ...this idea goes from top to bottom, not stopping md way to detour us into stopping an attack for clinching /wrestling / hands on ideas..its easy to follow this route because we feel the opponents moves etc.. shut them down ...its a working idea , but not the VT no -pre contact idea. the Vt idea is to develop the arms integrity of making sudden contact, that for lack of training, would immeditely deform our arm / structures , lacking the pre-training, to prepare for sudden impact of an attack....further combining the duality of the basic protocol of lateral displacement force coupled with a linear strikes inrotation along our line not 2 extended as chisao ....
the very root of our fighting is this , developed in chi-sao. Without direction it wont be found , and you will think to stick to people ....like a horse and cart.

[Alan Orr]

I agree with you guys.

Full contact sparring is the best test and training.

I hate Light Chi Sao comps. Its not real at all. The point for is,when I look at most wing chun the Chi Sao training and gor sao training is very weak. So a chi sao event that puts more pressure on the core skills we use can only be a good thing.

Other than that go in for kickboxing or MMA. My guys are fighting on a Pro MMA show on the 16th Dec, so we are still testing full contact comps as well. But I don't many other wing chun groups doing that either.


Regards

Alan

[Ernie]

Just to chime another big pet peeve of mine is chi sau tricks , '' masters usually are full of these .. little set ups and hand games that only apply to the shell that is chi sau .
I have been on the end of some pretty big names [ as most of you] and there upper echelon students [ what there training methods produce ]
and most of the time there is some base skill but it's cluttered in tons of chi sau tricks . or worse when a teacher lays a set of ground rules for there training method so the students stick to it and he works out side the box to dominate them in the chi sau game ,,,, besides some basic foundation and simple reaction 90% of the crap there doing is only for the ''game '' of chi sau .
this gives students and teachers a false illusion of skill , they train with the wrong goal and instead of training the bread and butter tools the waste countless hours in the mastery of tricks

with our group we approach chi sau similar to the ground game;[ and this was not the way I was initially trained ] , we work for dominant position using the body structure and angles that support hitting , not holding or grabbing or hitting blindly with speed Greco roman chi sau wrestling with emotional flurry's of stupidity . but seeking the controlled line were you can hit as slow as you want to with full body mechanics and emotional focus .it's all about temporary moments of advantage with forward momentum , learning how to recognize them , react to them and in some cases set them up .[ this is also done with a healthy level of controlled aggression to apply pressure and stress over load to the body ]

working power from the spine out , neutral balance and awareness , not a preconditioned set of rehearsed techniques .

and the very same lines and angles and body mechanics you train in chi sau should carry directly over to your fighting . there should be a clear one to one ratio , students should never be wondering how do I make this work against a jab , kick , shoot ,,, that's just sad

but to see people working Chi sau as a training aid , just ONE piece of there fight development puzzle is rare ,, most turn into some form of castrated fighting inside of a bubble ,,, also sad :o

[Alan Orr]

Nice Post Ernie

I agree, control the body structure. That is the key. That was the only reason to bring about the Chi Sao comp. If its full contact below the neck then people will need to have body power first. Cheap shots will not do much in that sort of event.

Best

Alan

[t_niehoff]

Just to chime another big pet peeve of mine is chi sau tricks , '' masters usually are full of these .. little set ups and hand games that only apply to the shell that is chi sau .
I have been on the end of some pretty big names [ as most of you] and there upper echelon students [ what there training methods produce ]
and most of the time there is some base skill but it's cluttered in tons of chi sau tricks . or worse when a teacher lays a set of ground rules for there training method so the students stick to it and he works out side the box to dominate them in the chi sau game ,,,, besides some basic foundation and simple reaction 90% of the crap there doing is only for the ''game '' of chi sau .
this gives students and teachers a false illusion of skill , they train with the wrong goal and instead of training the bread and butter tools the waste countless hours in the mastery of tricks

with our group we approach chi sau similar to the ground game;[ and this was not the way I was initially trained ] , we work for dominant position using the body structure and angles that support hitting , not holding or grabbing or hitting blindly with speed Greco roman chi sau wrestling with emotional flurry's of stupidity . but seeking the controlled line were you can hit as slow as you want to with full body mechanics and emotional focus .it's all about temporary moments of advantage with forward momentum , learning how to recognize them , react to them and in some cases set them up .[ this is also done with a healthy level of controlled aggression to apply pressure and stress over load to the body ]

working power from the spine out , neutral balance and awareness , not a preconditioned set of rehearsed techniques .

and the very same lines and angles and body mechanics you train in chi sau should carry directly over to your fighting . there should be a clear one to one ratio , students should never be wondering how do I make this work against a jab , kick , shoot ,,, that's just sad

but to see people working Chi sau as a training aid , just ONE piece of there fight development puzzle is rare ,, most turn into some form of castrated fighting inside of a bubble ,,, also sad :o

This is an excellent description of sound chi sao practice. Certainly a person can learn the contact skills/tools of WCK in such a manner (and if they don't practice in this sound way, they will not develop the skills/tools).

That said, the drill "works" -- you are able to do these things -- only because your partner is doing certain, prescribed things, trying to maintainthe integrity of the drill, for example trying to stick, trying to maintain a certain "range", etc. That you both are doing these things makes the drill unrealistic, i.e., it doesn't correspond to what will really happen in fighting, when your opponent will not be doing those things, but doing quite different things. And since your partner is behaving in certain prescribed, limited ways, you are developing habits ofactions that take these things for granted, that depend on those things, etc. IOWs, you are learning to use the tools to deal with an opponent who behaves that way. You are not learning to use them against an opponent that is behaving realsitically. All it takes to see this for oneself is to start in chi sao and haveyour partner begin behaving realisitically (begin fighting you), tostop trying to stick and just hit, to begin grapbbing you, trying to clinch, going wild with shots, etc. If you never practice dealing with those realistic contact actions/tactics, you will never develop the ability to deal with them.

[k gledhill]

what ernie said....just listening to how ernie talks I know he can teach me something beyond " rolling, rolling, rolling , get them bongs a rolling, up and down their going ...chisao !

sung to the tune of rawhide ! [ i know Im nutz ]

[Ernie]

Nice Post Ernie

I agree, control the body structure. That is the key. That was the only reason to bring about the Chi Sao comp. If its full contact below the neck then people will need to have body power first. Cheap shots will not do much in that sort of event.

Best

Alan

I follow your Logic Allen and understand the steps your taking to try and make something good happen .

I personally have never been interested in competitions , I have always loved the thrill of working out with new people and training with different cats , but never had the desire to put on a show or stroke my ego in front of a crowd . I have always felt you can get all that you need in hard training with varied partners from various places along your journey ,, Skill development is personal to me . and the only competition I care about is myself self from the past am I getting better then him =)

could be I'm just acting my age now or to many vicious street fights were I barley made it out and some good friends didn't , that I see the whole fight game with different eyes , ring games are no different then , chi sau no different then rolling , no different then intense conditioning ,, all parts of the puzzle ,, fighting is [ to me ] when you are faced with the rigid rod of reality of the true depth of how cruel the human animal can be ...

but like I said I'm getting older now let the young guys have there fun ,, maybe I'm just cranky :D

But I do wish you the best and If anyone I train ever wants to get into anything like that I will send them your way to support the cause ;)

[MisterNoobie]

Contact only below the neck doesn't cut it.

VERY limited in what it will do for you or tell you about yourself. If one is looking to test oneself and one's martial skills - then you've got to include headshots.


Kyokushin trains with no headshots and has produced good fighters. Bjj trains with no striking at all and has produced good fighters in arenas where strikes are included. Muy thai trains with no groin shots and takedowns yet and has produced fighters.

Why is it that wing chun needs to have mma style sparring when clearly other styles have been successful with limiting rulesets?

For instance, being a noobie in bjj, by your logic, i should only train with strikes on the ground so i dont develop bad habits. But if this is how i trained, I would never progress anywhere because I'd constantly be beat up. If i cant help from getting beat up without strikes, how am i going to fare when strikes are added?

[sihing]

This is an excellent description of sound chi sao practice. Certainly a person can learn the contact skills/tools of WCK in such a manner (and if they don't practice in this sound way, they will not develop the skills/tools).

That said, the drill "works" -- you are able to do these things -- only because your partner is doing certain, prescribed things, trying to maintainthe integrity of the drill, for example trying to stick, trying to maintain a certain "range", etc. That you both are doing these things makes the drill unrealistic, i.e., it doesn't correspond to what will really happen in fighting, when your opponent will not be doing those things, but doing quite different things. And since your partner is behaving in certain prescribed, limited ways, you are developing habits ofactions that take these things for granted, that depend on those things, etc. IOWs, you are learning to use the tools to deal with an opponent who behaves that way. You are not learning to use them against an opponent that is behaving realsitically. All it takes to see this for oneself is to start in chi sao and haveyour partner begin behaving realisitically (begin fighting you), tostop trying to stick and just hit, to begin grapbbing you, trying to clinch, going wild with shots, etc. If you never practice dealing with those realistic contact actions/tactics, you will never develop the ability to deal with them.


I'm sure Ernie will reply with his own response, but concerning some of the above, why can't you incorporate or mix more realistic attacks from the drill structure? Who's to say that Ernie for example is not doing that already? T, if I told you that I've seen him incorporate more realistic attacks from some traditional WC drills, would you believe me? Because I have. Also, if you are "chi sau'g" with someone, and they suddenly go into crazy mode and start attacking you with whatever, are we just standing there letting it happen? What happened to your follow what comes lat sau jik chung? Of course sometimes you will get nailed or taken down, this is the way of things and people will get in on you at times, it's a back and forth thing, you got me, I get you, and so forth. The way you put it T, you make it sound like we are stuck in a little box, and when someone stands outside of it, we are clueless as to what to do.

In the beginning everything is very structured so they learn from it what they have to learn, as Ernie and Allan have already mentioned, some structure and body mechanics, but later on we are not limited by what are partner is doing nor stuck by it. I worry about me, not really about what he is doing (that is after I have learned the lessons), as the idea is to hit, not stick, deflect, absorb, subdue, pry, push, pull, etc..He goes crazy, I do too, only in a efficient and naturally structured way that is not totally unscientific (therefore not just doing what you feel like doin, hoping a shot gets in and getting lucky), but rather in a way that gives you a direct path backed up by a body structure and strategy capable of supporting and enabling your troops (tools) to succeed and hit their targets. Now if this is fantasy thinking, then I can't help you bro. If you think fighters fight without structure, purpose and design, then I don't know what you are doing in the realm of learning how to fight. Not too many fighters go straight from their natural state to top level, world class skills without plenty of work, refinement, discovery (what works, what doesn't), understanding, failure, success, and repeating the pattern over and over again. For us in WC, that process begins with forms, chi sau, laap sau, other two man drills, but that is not the be all end all of it. Testing, sparring, going out of your comfort zone, learning how to enter from a distance, etc... are some of the things we need to go thru also, after we have the body structure and mechanics from the previous things learned. Problem is people get stuck at various stages for various reasons, I don't know, but IMO the majority of what you talk about and criticize is concerned with the beginning stage of WC training.


James

[Wayfaring]

Good thread on chi sau, developing that skillset, and how it fits in with alive sparring.

For a change.

[t_niehoff]

Kyokushin trains with no headshots and has produced good fighters. Bjj trains with no striking at all and has produced good fighters in arenas where strikes are included. Muy thai trains with no groin shots and takedowns yet and has produced fighters.


This is because Victor isn't making the distinction between skills and tactics. What matters is that you are developing realistic skills. You're correct that MT doesn't train "groin kicks" but it trains to develop realistic kicking skills. With realistic kicking skills, you can change the target (thigh to groin, for example) -- which is a tactical choice -- and your skills will still work.



Why is it that wing chun needs to have mma style sparring when clearly other styles have been successful with limiting rulesets?


It's not the "rule set" but the realistic environment/situations that matter when itcomes to developing realistic skills. MMA sparring is realistic. Chi sao is not.



For instance, being a noobie in bjj, by your logic, i should only train with strikes on the ground so i dont develop bad habits. But if this is how i trained, I would never progress anywhere because I'd constantly be beat up. If i cant help from getting beat up without strikes, how am i going to fare when strikes are added?

It again comes back to what skills you are trying to develop. In BJJ we train without strikes so that we can focus on developing realistic grappling skills - because BJJ is a grappling art (where the fight strategy is to submit not GNP). Strikes, both offensive and defensive, can be added into the mix once those skills are developed.

[t_niehoff]

I'm sure Ernie will reply with his own response, but concerning some of the above, why can't you incorporate or mix more realistic attacks from the drill structure? Who's to say that Ernie for example is not doing that already? T, if I told you that I've seen him incorporate more realistic attacks from some traditional WC drills, would you believe me? Because I have.


You are missing the point. It isn't a matter of adding "some" realistic aspects, because even if you do that, the drill itself is and will continue to be by its very nature inherently unrealistic -- it does not correspond to what happens in contact fighting. You are not getting the same timing, energy, movement, reactions, problems, etc. in chi sao that you will in fighting. You can see this for yourself --- get a partner who doen't do WCK and so isn't "programmed", begin in contact, and have him fight you. That is realistic. You'll see it is nothing like chi sao.



Also, if you are "chi sau'g" with someone, and they suddenly go into crazy mode and start attacking you with whatever, are we just standing there letting it happen? What happened to your follow what comes lat sau jik chung? Of course sometimes you will get nailed or taken down, this is the way of things and people will get in on you at times, it's a back and forth thing, you got me, I get you, and so forth. The way you put it T, you make it sound like we are stuck in a little box, and when someone stands outside of it, we are clueless as to what to do.


Of course anyone will fight back. That's not the question. The question is will they be able to use their skills as they train to use them? What I'm saying is that you will not be able to "follow what comes" in fighting unless you practice doing that in fighting -- doing it in chi sao won't prepare you since how you do that in chi sao will not correspond to fighting.



In the beginning everything is very structured so they learn from it what they have to learn, as Ernie and Allan have already mentioned, some structure and body mechanics, but later on we are not limited by what are partner is doing nor stuck by it. I worry about me, not really about what he is doing (that is after I have learned the lessons), as the idea is to hit, not stick, deflect, absorb, subdue, pry, push, pull, etc..He goes crazy, I do too, only in a efficient and naturally structured way that is not totally unscientific (therefore not just doing what you feel like doin, hoping a shot gets in and getting lucky), but rather in a way that gives you a direct path backed up by a body structure and strategy capable of supporting and enabling your troops (tools) to succeed and hit their targets. Now if this is fantasy thinking, then I can't help you bro.


It is fantasy, and it is theory. It sounds great, but have you tried it in contact fighting, with some competant people? You see, everyone and their grandmother has a theory about what to do, and can do it in chi sao -- but that's to beexpected since chi sao is an unrealistic exercise that will permit you to do just about anything. But if people actually did a fair bit of contact (attached) fighting, they'd see firsthand that what they do in chi sao won't work in fighting (at least as they do them in chi sao). That they work in chi sao only because the other guys is doing certain things that permit them to work.



If you think fighters fight without structure, purpose and design, then I don't know what you are doing in the realm of learning how to fight. Not too many fighters go straight from their natural state to top level, world class skills without plenty of work, refinement, discovery (what works, what doesn't), understanding, failure, success, and repeating the pattern over and over again.


Of course you need those things. They have them in BJJ, don't they? But - andthis is the all-important but - they practice those things in the context, situation, etc. AS THEY WILL REALLY USE THEM. That's my point. They don't practice them in a way they won't use them (chi sao) and then try to put them into sparring. They don't practice them in unrealistic situations, with unrealistic timing, energy, resistance, etc. They learn the skills as they will really use them, practice them as they will really use them, and then use them just like they've learned and practiced them.



For us in WC, that process begins with forms, chi sau, laap sau, other two man drills, but that is not the be all end all of it.


And that's the problem -- you are learning things (skills, movements, etc.) in unrealistic ways, in ways that don't correspond to reality. That may not be the end, but it's certainly not a good start!



Testing, sparring, going out of your comfort zone, learning how to enter from a distance, etc... are some of the things we need to go thru also, after we have the body structure and mechanics from the previous things learned. Problem is people get stuck at various stages for various reasons, I don't know, but IMO the majority of what you talk about and criticize is concerned with the beginning stage of WC training.


If you begin with unrealistic training, with practicing doing things not as you will really do them -- and particularly if you keep practicing that way -- how do you expect to ever develop significant levels of fighting skill? You are essentially learning and practicing how not to do things in fighitng and expecting this to somehow make you a better fighter.

[YungChun]

And that's the problem -- you are learning things (skills, movements, etc.) in unrealistic ways, in ways that don't correspond to reality. That may not be the end, but it's certainly not a good start!

Does this go for ALL chisao? Let's get that straight..


If you begin with unrealistic training, with practicing doing things not as you will really do them -- and particularly if you keep practicing that way -- how do you expect to ever develop significant levels of fighting skill? You are essentially learning and practicing how not to do things in fighitng and expecting this to somehow make you a better fighter.
In ChiSao the core is the target, and one learns how to issue force and deal with force, to take the line when they leave it, to use openings that correspond to the opponent's energy leaving the line and/or energy or position that does not hold the line..

If the tools are the tools, and the range is the range, then there are only so many ways arms can make contact, legs can make contact, and take position.. There are only so many kind of force.. There are only so many angles, so many ways to jam his weapons, so many ways to redirect force with our tools, to take position and make space with WCK tactics.. Those positions and conditions are what is covered in the drill--chisao. No there is no MMA clinch work in standard chisao. No there is no long range striking in standard chisao--of course not. As you pointed out with BJJ rolling, they want to focus on that range, not kicking, not punching, not G&P, etc... Rather they focus on the range they specialize in as does the drill ChiSao focus on WCK range, a must in order to train that range and it's tools, WCK tools and tactics designed to operate at that range--not at some other range where an MMA fighter may want to go... Yes fighting a MMA fighter means the reality of the fight is that he wants HIS range, BUT we want OUR range, we each train OUR OWN ranges and tactics in our core training--shocking isn't it?

If the contact, range, resistance and energy in chisao is BS then WCK is BS, because that's the range and the conditions that it operates in--as you say, close range attached fighting, BUT not MMA clinch fighting range and conditions for the most part... Not to say folks can't also train MMA clinch work, but don't tell me that kind of clinch work is WCK.. What's realistic or not in the drill of chisao is the energy, resistance, contact--the GOAL of the energy and positional delivery system, designed to use the path of no resistance and blow them down via contact, control and kinesthetic awareness.

[sihing]

You are missing the point. It isn't a matter of adding "some" realistic aspects;....bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla, etc etc etc............................................... .................................................. ...................................... You are essentially learning and practicing how not to do things in fighitng and expecting this to somehow make you a better fighter.

T, you have many valid points, that is if your understanding of what we are talking about is low, regarding general WC training methods and what they mean. Since that is the case, and since I have already posted my views and you yours (isn't it amazing, the countries we live in that allow us to express our evenly valued opinions, it's wonderful:D), I'll leave it at that.

Good day sir, and good rolling:)

James

[wiz cool c]

[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;820298]Good posts so far.

Have been in the wing chun game since 1975 - and have been doing moderate-to-full contact sparring with protective gear including headshots since 1979. (That's 28 years now).


Any videos?

[Ultimatewingchun]

A student of mine posted 6 vids here on this forum about 2+ years ago. But she's not around anymore and I'm basically a computer dummy - and don't know how to repost the vids.

However, I'm planning on trying to get another old-time student of mine to film and post some new vids within the next few months - as he plans on coming in for a visit (he's living in Japan at the moment).

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Kyokushin trains with no headshots and has produced good fighters." (MN)

***I KNOW. One of my best and oldest friends is a 5th or 6th dan in Kyokushin (and he's very good) - but he even has come to agree with me in recent years and now trains his students with headgear and headshots.

"Bjj trains with no striking at all and has produced good fighters in arenas where strikes are included." (MN)

***TRAIN grappling as pure grappling, yes - and then add striking into the mix as soon as you can. That's how I see it. Otherwise you're just a tournament grappler.

[Ultimatewingchun]

And talk about some of the specifics of the OVERALL fight game and how what's developed in chi sao, in my opinion, should not be used to try and OVER-ACHIEVE what's really possible.

That is, if you're up against a skilled fighter who can wrestler/grapple in the clinch, use some Thai in the clinch - and who's good at throws and takedowns (both from the clinch and when shooting for the legs).

Now as much as I enjoy reading and respect the wing chun knowledge/skill behind their posts - I have to take issue with some of the things that both Kevin and Ernie have said on this thread.

So let's start with this:

From Kevin Gledhill:

“(Chi sao)…its a developmental tool to an end ..not the end itself…bringing life to oursystem through development of the lin sil di da…that is our edge in 'freefighting'....”

***lin sil di da (simultaneous block and strike) - as great as it is - can only be done from very close range and in limited circumstances.

“I let people hit me ..just to see if it hurts and if it doesnt ??? what exactly are you going to do in the fight if you cant hurt me at chi-sao distance ?”

***What are you going to do if you don't stop the guy in his tracks - let's say after some lin sil di da - from close range? YOU'RE GOING TO GET CLINCHED.

“I used to approach chi sao as many , doing rolling /sticking/ feeling...etc...but then I realized my mistake and corrected my approach to the drill..not as a structure /energy drill feeling ...but as a way to improve the idea of the SLT arm strike idea...not stopping mid way to detour us into stopping an attack for clinching /wrestling / hands on ideas..."

***A noble goal - but how sure are you that he won't be able to clinch you from here? Or that it's not to your advantage to suddenly collar tie him and throw knees or elbows - which means you've GRABBED him. (at least momentarily, if not longer).

"the Vt idea is to develop the arms integrity of making sudden contact, that for lack of training, would immediately deform our arm/structures , lacking the pre-training, to prepare for sudden impact of an attack....further combining the duality of the basic protocol of lateral displacement force coupled with a linear strikes in rotation along our line…the very root of our fighting is this , developed in chi-sao. Without direction it wont be found , and you will think to stick to people .

***Even with the best of chi sao training - when you're working this close to the guy a grab/clinch can happen in a heartbeat - from either one of you. Do you really want to put all your eggs in the "SLT arm strike idea"?

I don't think that's wise.

.................................................. .

And from Ernie:

“with our group we approach chi sau similar to the ground game…we work for dominant position using the body structure and angles that support hitting , not holding or grabbing or hitting blindly with speed Greco roman chi sau wrestling with emotional flurry's of stupidity . but seeking the controlled line were you can hit as slow as you want to with full body mechanics and emotional focus. it's all about temporary moments of advantage with forward momentum, learning how to recognize them, react to them and in some cases set them up."

***Again, an excellent wing chun/vt approach to close quarter infighting, but d a m n, Ernie, you should really check a little deeper into Greco-Roman clinch work. It's awesome stuff from this range - and this range IS ALMOST EXACTLY THE SAME AS THE WING CHUN STRIKING RANGE.

It's within about maybe 8-10 inches, these two ranges at their optimal best.

VERY close to each other.

Btw, I highly recommend Randy Couture's new book, a big book about 200 pages long with lots of color photos entitled: WRESTLING FOR FIGHTING.

The whole book is awesome - but look especially at the section wherein he demos how to set up clinch work and takedowns off of punching attacks. His own punching attacks.

[k gledhill]

Fighting is a gamble ..I train to raise the percentages in my favour utilizing a way of thinking geared for combat not point fighting competitions....Ive had clinches , Ive been to ground and back :D, Ive hit/kicked guys who just look back at me :D...

***lin sil di da (simultaneous block and strike) - as great as it is - can only be done from very close range and in limited circumstances.

it is the way I hit ...to do lin sil di da , one has to be in striking distance of the fist , I throw it with elbows down and in but i can still hit to my max extension....im not a slave to the elbow...ive done finger jabs to eyes for that reason in fights [ ninjas everywhere terence !]

***What are you going to do if you don't stop the guy in his tracks - let's say after some lin sil di da - from close range? YOU'RE GOING TO GET CLINCHED.

it doesnt mean I have to get clinched ,many options to us , attacking and maintaining an attack by all at our disposal...I can angle offline , re attack, trap, we can clinch /stalemate...I do some ground work too...BUT it isnt in one punch responses either...lin sil di da is 2 arms attacking in rotation with a kick or 10 thrown in....

***A noble goal - but how sure are you that he won't be able to clinch you from here? Or that it's not to your advantage to suddenly collar tie him and throw knees or elbows - which means you've GRABBED him. (at least momentarily, if not longer).


I dont try to face squarely as chisao , wrong thinking /redundancy factor....facing in aclinch like manner is just for training equal arm opportunity for VT partners ..the tactical face off begins before the chisao apex angles....it is my fight to NOT allow facing to allow the clinching of my arms square on front and center .....wrist grabs can be dealt with bil gee ...VT doesnt have knees or elbows ..only if you feel the need [sorry]
Entering to elbow or knee distance means losing my working ,trained fight distance for the sake of a strike ...dont get me wrong Ive done both in fights with good results:rolleyes: I fight like water [ sorry dale ]

***Even with the best of chi sao training - when you're working this close to the guy a grab/clinch can happen in a heartbeat - from either one of you. Do you really want to put all your eggs in the "SLT arm strike idea"?

I don't think that's wise.

fighting is a game of chance ...we roll the dice and .....? :D VT is simply a way of rasing the odds in your favour .


Just as a btw most of my fights with 'ninja's' started with some attempt to clinch /grab my arms etc... it has becoem the norm ..I teach my students to expect it as the first move and counters we do in system for the very reason we fight with our arms extended out in front ,so have to have a way to respond to wrist grabs....Ive had more fight sstartg with the 'grab' and push than simple strikes to ninja's disguised as guys like you and me out on the town ; )

[Ultimatewingchun]

Btw, Kevin, Ernie...

I'm basically just tweaking the two of you a bit. Because lately during wrestling class we've been working with bouncing back-and-forth between close quarter wing chun striking/blocking/parrying/kicking/redirecting/forward body pressure/simultaneous block-and-hit...

and Greco clinch work. And of course some collar ties w/knees and elbows - and dirty boxing collar tie and punch...side headlock hip throws...front headlock with sprawl takedowns, leg trip takedowns, standing arm locks to takedowns, etc.

It's a great marriage - precisely because all of the above can be done pretty much from the same basic distance (very close quarter) to the opponent. Lots of weapons to work with based upon how the fight develops - and lots of defenses available (not married to just hit/just grapple, etc.)

And of course....headshots! :D

[k gledhill]

agreed Vt flows in to wrestling/bjj like they are seamless ...labeling each is their downfall

fighiting isnt several different ways its just we havent figured out its one BIG way ...
a mobius flip [ sorry dale] flowing from a 3 dimensional fighting 'way', chess was never so complex eh terence? [ maybe on star trek ?]

[Ultimatewingchun]

Ha! Ha! Ha! :p

[Edmund]

Lin sil die da doesn't literally mean simultaneous block and strike. It means using defence and striking in combination which is a more lenient and more encompassing idea.

If we can defend a strike and then flow into a strike of our own, then there's a better chance of landing it. This can apply in close or further away.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Just a side note:
Kyokushin COMPETITIONS are bare knuckle and NO HEAD shots except for kicks and knees, though this has changed in some circles, but TRAINING was supposed to be head shots with protective gear, though some schools stopped doing that when they decided to focus on competitions only.

[k gledhill]

Lin sil die da doesn't literally mean simultaneous block and strike. It means using defence and striking in combination which is a more lenient and more encompassing idea.

If we can defend a strike and then flow into a strike of our own, then there's a better chance of landing it. This can apply in close or further away.



agreed that there is room for translation in Cantonese....the phrase for children playing is literaly " mosquitos buzzing around " I did a basic cantonese language course reading and writing , speaking....its not so hard even I can do it. ;)


but there is a solid technique developed from ground up based on this simple idea....
like words they cant reveal the true meaning until you actually see it done or have someone do it to you to feel the meaning...like describing the taste of an apple ...

or being around your kids playing when someone says ' mosquito's buzzing around ' :D

[Ultimatewingchun]

Didn't know that about kyokushin, my friend never mentioned that to me (about punching headshots w/headgear in training). I'm assuming because by the time he started with the system here in NYC back around 1980 - headshots with punches were never used anymore.

....................................

As for "lin sil di da", yeah, it's not always exactly simultaneous block-and-strike. In fact, more often than not the hit will come just slightly after the block (but very close to simultaneous). As to doing it at any distance - much harder to do with any consistent success if you're not within a mere half step of your opponent with your rear hand.

[k gledhill]

the system is based on this idea...if the one arm striking and ballisticly deflecting as it does, if it meets an interuption, it endevours to maintain the idea of 'maintining the attack', by adopting plan B [ for many its plan A] and fight in rotation ie:
pak n hit,
bong n hit [ not bong lop n hit , to slow] you xed over my punching arm / line
primary is jut n hit , because its a punch being thrown and being intercepted on the attack line...if i miss the intended jut [ its a chaotic situation] im still holding the line and firing away...
only stopping to go into plan B if plan A is interupted
Bil gee is simply maintianing plan A from under the brideg amongst other things ..ie tut sao or how to keep a freehand to strike , from under a lifted bridge or taller person...

[Edmund]

As for "lin sil di da", yeah, it's not always exactly simultaneous block-and-strike. In fact, more often than not the hit will come just slightly after the block (but very close to simultaneous). As to doing it at any distance - much harder to do with any consistent success if you're not within a mere half step of your opponent with your rear hand.

Well I was trying to imply that it's not distance dependent because it's a more vague statement about combinations. A combination of long range techniques apply in the same way as shorter range techniques.

e.g. Kicking. An attacker could round kick to your thigh. By leg checking and then following up immediately with a kick of your own, you are using a defence and then an attack in a combination. The chance of him defending or avoiding your kick is lower.