Generating power

[monji112000]

outside of talking about impact power, I see allot of people in Wing Chun with weak power generation.
What is power generation? Creating power when you strike something. To properly generate power when punching you must turn your body and push off the floor in some manner. This is done by many styles in varying ways:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9ndPSGjmHA
the only problem with this clip is that 1) they say its JKD its a simple WC Bow and arrow punch. 2) the last part of the clip the fighter isn't torquing his body enough (JMO).
Generating power with the front kick or push kick / knee:
kicking like punching isn't as much reliant on the limb (the leg in this case) but the whole body to generate power. Using your hip to thrust forward and generate power, combined with the motion of extending your leg. NOT just lifting your leg and hoping the “structure” of your body will do some magic.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMMBRBNtZLw
although this isn't really a Wing Chun push kick its very similar, because the MT push kick uses hip power generation also.
Using your hips and your whole body is the key for all the Wing Chun kicks.
Another good example of using the hip is for the knee.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObR04J9q2DA
Everyone who has any common sense knows that to generate power with your knee you must use more than just lifting your leg.

Just some basic ideas I learned in WC, I thought they would make good conversation.

[t_niehoff]

outside of talking about impact power, I see allot of people in Wing Chun with weak power generation.
What is power generation? Creating power when you strike something. To properly generate power when punching you must turn your body and push off the floor in some manner.

No, you don't have to "turn your body" -- the foundation of WCK power is not from body rotation.

[monji112000]

No, you don't have to "turn your body" -- the foundation of WCK power is not from body rotation.
really? hmm. I'm game for a good laugh.. how can you generate power without turning your body when you punch?
Notice I said generate power, I am not talking about impact power.

[Alan Orr]

Basic clip

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=xIJQrbD7jL8

regards

Alan

[k gledhill]

structured biomechanics ....quadriceps ...timing ... a systematic process to deliver the inch punch force from several feet away to an incoming body in motion....while avoiding it being delivered to you at the same time ...linsil di da ..again !? :D
seung ma -toi ma can help this ;)

[Hendrik]

really? hmm. I'm game for a good laugh.. how can you generate power without turning your body when you punch?
Notice I said generate power, I am not talking about impact power.



I agree with Terence and Alan.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AG3vEVQ5Qg0

Did he to turning at all to generate power?

[monji112000]

Basic clip

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=xIJQrbD7jL8

regards

Alan

its a good primer and I always enjoy your clips. Again I am not talking about impact power.


structured biomechanics ....quadriceps ...timing ... a systematic process to deliver the inch punch force from several feet away to an incoming body in motion....while avoiding it being delivered to you at the same time ...linsil di da ..again !? :D
seung ma -toi ma can help this ;)


I agree with Terence and Alan.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AG3vEVQ5Qg0

Did he to turning at all to generate power?

I am not sure what the squat clip is supposed to show. I could show someone swinging a baseball bat... that would also show good power.
body mechanics to create power.

[AndrewS]

Monji,

let me make it more obvious for you. . .

<http://youtube.com/watch?v=9FwIDwBDcnA>

Andrew

[Ali. R]

Power comes from your stance and a strong connection to the floor…

I’ve seen him on other forums; he’s always been extremely rude to me… No big deal because if your heart is not right you will always lose a debate because hate will always get’ in the way, and you cannot think clearly and will embarrass yourself, as recently seen in one of my threads…

Let’s be nice, it’s obvious that he hasn’t been around that long maybe he’s just guessing… I say this because there is nothing in his profile that says: how long, when, where or who? And no true identity… Don’t you just hate that, especially when they guess wrong?

I never had to turn when throwing a punch, even while performing “iron palm”… I like to isolate half of my body when demonstrating “iron palm”(on my knees; unless the bricks are stacked more then three)…

There is no need to turn; you just need a strong stance and good timing that’s works well with the body mechanic that runs the technique or applications that you are using at that time, unless you are reaching from fighting on the outside, because your body is naturally turned when stepping to the outside…


Ali Rahim.

[Hendrik]

I could show someone swinging a baseball bat... that would also show good power.
body mechanics to create power.


sure , but eagle or crane would not take off via swing. not to mention what happen a split of second before the swing, go a head slow motion the act and observe.

there is where AWARENESS is usefull. does one aware of what happen before the eagle take off ?


just some thoughts

[YungChun]

I am not sure what the squat clip is supposed to show. I could show someone swinging a baseball bat... that would also show good power.
body mechanics to create power.
IMO WCK has linear power generation from the body, as well as rotational power generation from the body.. When and how each is used, sometimes in combination is determined by the tactics in play.

Those who have no power have none IMO because they:

A. Are using arm power only..

B. Are not used to releasing power in training and making hard contact.

[Ali. R]

IMO WCK has linear power generation from the body, as well as rotational power generation from the body.. When and how each is used, sometimes in combination is determined by the tactics in play.

Those who have no power have none IMO because they:

A. Are using arm power only..

B. Are not used to releasing power in training and making hard contact.


That is one “hell of a” post, because all the things that you said will ring true when bridge contact is made… I was taught that one could turn with a strike after bridge contact is made and after one has closed the gap while throwing a shot similar to a mop handle going straight to the chin (no turning), feeding ones center to react, even if one hits or if his shot is blocked…


Ali Rahim.

[Alan Orr]

IMO WCK has linear power generation from the body, as well as rotational power generation from the body.. When and how each is used, sometimes in combination is determined by the tactics in play.

Those who have no power have none IMO because they:

A. Are using arm power only..

B. Are not used to releasing power in training and making hard contact.

Hi Jim


This is correct.

Wing Chun's power is in the form development. SLT forward power is shown ( as in my basic clip of issue of force). CK rotational power and so on. At the higher level you level to use power in 8 directions. Which is really any direction and any combination of directions.

Regards


Alan

[Knifefighter]

Monji,

let me make it more obvious for you. . .

<http://youtube.com/watch?v=9FwIDwBDcnA>

Andrew

The above clip is vertical, non-percussive power generation.

Generating maximal horizontal, percussive force generation (such as seen in striking, shot-putting, baseball, tennis, etc) requires body rotation. This is the reason the body is rotated in all sports that require this maximum amounts of this type of power generation.

[Hendrik]

No big deal because if your heart is not right you will always lose a debate because hate will always get’ in the way,


Ali Rahim.

listern to heart, using heart,
speak with heart, how rare are they in this world.

peace

[monji112000]

Monji,

let me make it more obvious for you. . .

<http://youtube.com/watch?v=9FwIDwBDcnA>



Andrew

well I think you made it more confusing, maybe I am just slow. How about this clip...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1L28KunpUk&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1a_T1SKqzM&feature=related

how does clean and jerk relate to punching? If anything I can see how the squatting motion is similar to a kick but without the rest of your body you are limiting your kick extensivly.


Power comes from your stance and a strong connection to the floor…

I’ve seen him on other forums; he’s always been extremely rude to me… No big deal because if your heart is not right you will always lose a debate because hate will always get’ in the way, and you cannot think clearly and will embarrass yourself, as recently seen in one of my threads…

Let’s be nice, it’s obvious that he hasn’t been around that long maybe he’s just guessing… I say this because there is nothing in his profile that says: how long, when, where or who? And no true identity… Don’t you just hate that, especially when they guess wrong?

I never had to turn when throwing a punch, even while performing “iron palm”… I like to isolate half of my body when demonstrating “iron palm”(on my knees; unless the bricks are stacked more then three)…

There is no need to turn; you just need a strong stance and good timing that’s works well with the body mechanic that runs the technique or applications that you are using at that time, unless you are reaching from fighting on the outside, because your body is naturally turned when stepping to the outside…


Ali Rahim.
not trying to be rude just having a friendly conversation.


sure , but eagle or crane would not take off via swing. not to mention what happen a split of second before the swing, go a head slow motion the act and observe.

there is where AWARENESS is usefull. does one aware of what happen before the eagle take off ?


just some thoughts

ok please explain more. What about a monkey paw?


IMO WCK has linear power generation from the body, as well as rotational power generation from the body.. When and how each is used, sometimes in combination is determined by the tactics in play.

Those who have no power have none IMO because they:

A. Are using arm power only..

B. Are not used to releasing power in training and making hard contact.

of course I am not saying anything to the contrary.



The above clip is vertical, non-percussive power generation.

Generating maximal horizontal, percussive force generation (such as seen in striking, shot-putting, baseball, tennis, etc) requires body rotation. This is the reason the body is rotated in all sports that require this maximum amounts of this type of power generation.

agreed.

What the heck is SLT power. Your clip just showed basic structure, and you were using your structure like a spring. This type of power we call impact power(it has many applications), I'm not talking about impact power. It has its place, but in fighting you must be able to generate power not just rely on impact.

Its a pretty sad state if someone trains punching and kick without basic power generation. How do you punch the heavy bad (other than chain punch?). Doesn't it seem odd that every other martial art creates power from rotating the body(in some way) when they punch... maybe everyone is nuts? :D More importantly what about the second and third form... they loudly point to this fact. Where do you think the “straight lead” that is shown in so many clips on the web as the “1 inch punch” comes from?

You guys really don't believe that just lifting your leg and have a “good” structure is going to hurt someone when you kick.... do you? Maybe we are talking about two different martial arts. LOL :(

[Hendrik]

Just to share

while i was researching power generation of Yik Kam lineage years ago with the help of my kungfu brother sifu Robert Chu. I found out.

with todays physics both newtonian and quantuum, we could formulate the whole power generation with three keys components to identify different power generation dna type

namely

1, power source , ie where the power/energy originate from (muscle, shoulder, hip, .. localized, integrated)

2, momentum booster/attennuator , ie rotation movement

3, acceletor/deceletor , ie wrist snaping


also

the expression of the power could be classified as one directional, two directional to 6 diectional.

with one direction the easiest to generate but also easy to be neutralized to 6 direction which is difficult to manfest but difficult to neutralized or deflect




just some thoughts

[Hendrik]

ok please explain more. What about a monkey paw?


:(



1, you need to ask monkey to explain to you. since if i recall WCK is an human art :) joking

2, observe instead of think, Aware instead of reason



could you please share what is power generation to you and what is the process of generating this power?

[Knifefighter]

could you please share what is power generation to you and what is the process of generating this power?

Watch the clip he posted above on the baseball swing... that's a great demonstration on developing horizontal, percussive force.

[Edmund]

Doesn't it seem odd that every other martial art creates power from rotating the body(in some way) when they punch... maybe everyone is nuts? :D More importantly what about the second and third form... they loudly point to this fact. Where do you think the “straight lead” that is shown in so many clips on the web as the “1 inch punch” comes from?


A little rotating is fine.
The problem is that the more you rotate your body one direction, the less easy it is to follow up with the other hand. You're going to have a monster 1st punch and then you have to turn back.

It's all great for sports where there's time to get the body into a ready-to-rotate position. You look in tennis when they get to the net though. When they have to be ready to quickly hit from either side they're a lot squarer and they don't take a big swing and follow through.

[Hendrik]

Watch the clip he posted above on the baseball swing... that's a great demonstration on developing horizontal, percussive force.

thanks. that is a great power generation dna type. however, is that applicable for wck application?

so, imho, if i may use my model to analyze, where is the power source, the momentum boosting, and the acceleration? how many direction manifestation?

i ask these questions because we sometimes mistake power source with momentum boosting or acceleration....


in classical chinese power generation paradigm the power source could be muscular or /and body weight, and at advance level qi flow got integrate in. there is where the newtonian physics fail to explain but quantuum physics could. and imho, with a clear picture in the power generatuon will help one to handle power generation better.

and also know what type of power signature fit into what type of art/application. ie what type of power generation dna WCK's core Slt is developing and who is the mother of this power signature/dna. shaolin?taiji?emai? white crane of fujian? and what is the uniqueness?


to be basic and simple, let examine between 'dead lifting and squat lifting. anyone care to share what you see if you use my model to classified them?


peace

[Knifefighter]

A little rotating is fine.
The problem is that the more you rotate your body one direction, the less easy it is to follow up with the other hand. You're going to have a monster 1st punch and then you have to turn back.

The rotation from the first punch loads the follow up punch for maximum power. Tyson was a master of this in his prime.

[KPM]

From a biomechanical standpoint it is rather simple. To impart force to an external object you move in a limited number of vectors. You can move forward or back on the X axis....stepping in or stepping back. You can move up or down on the Y axis...dropping your weight or pushing up with the legs. Or you can move in a rotary fashion around the Y axis...torquing, pivoting, or rotating. The more of these vectors you can incorporate into a strike the more power it will have. For example...stepping in as you pivot and drop your weight is more powerful than standing in place and only pivoting.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The human body doesn't really move in a "linear" fashion.
Its all rotation and pivoting of some sort.

Look at the most powerful punches, they are rotational in nature, even fajing is circular, just look at chen silk reeling power, its all rotational.

Look at a sprinter for example, and even a powerlifing movement, if you follow the whole axis of movement, is not a linear one.

The body generates power at its best when it is rotational.
Round kick VS front kick for example.

[monji112000]

Just to share

while i was researching power generation of Yik Kam lineage years ago with the help of my kungfu brother sifu Robert Chu. I found out.

with todays physics both newtonian and quantuum, we could formulate the whole power generation with three keys components to identify different power generation dna type

namely

1, power source , ie where the power/energy originate from (muscle, shoulder, hip, .. localized, integrated)

2, momentum booster/attennuator , ie rotation movement

3, acceletor/deceletor , ie wrist snaping


also

the expression of the power could be classified as one directional, two directional to 6 diectional.

with one direction the easiest to generate but also easy to be neutralized to 6 direction which is difficult to manfest but difficult to neutralized or deflect




just some thoughts

I could be wrong but the way I understand body mechanics and how I have researched a few martial arts energy originates from the ground or the pushing off of the ground. (well not 100% but its part of it). Momentum is fine and important , but you could push someone using basic body mechanics and no momentum or speed. That was the demonstration of the “1 inch “ punch, body mechanics.



1, you need to ask monkey to explain to you. since if i recall WCK is an human art :) joking

2, observe instead of think, Aware instead of reason



could you please share what is power generation to you and what is the process of generating this power?

Observing is the first step, thinking is the second. Unless you get some divine inspiration how can you become aware without reason? I like to use the basic scientific process I learned back in grade school it works great. Personally that method was how I was taught to use Wing Chun. Why use anything else?


A little rotating is fine.
The problem is that the more you rotate your body one direction, the less easy it is to follow up with the other hand. You're going to have a monster 1st punch and then you have to turn back.

It's all great for sports where there's time to get the body into a ready-to-rotate position. You look in tennis when they get to the net though. When they have to be ready to quickly hit from either side they're a lot squarer and they don't take a big swing and follow through.

thats true like anything in life you have trade offs. Thats why so many martial arts have techniques that vary. Its about timing and distance. You can't say a fast weak hit is best all the time, or a slow strong hit. Its all relative...


thanks. that is a great power generation dna type. however, is that applicable for wck application?

so, imho, if i may use my model to analyze, where is the power source, the momentum boosting, and the acceleration? how many direction manifestation?

i ask these questions because we sometimes mistake power source with momentum boosting or acceleration....


in classical chinese power generation paradigm the power source could be muscular or /and body weight, and at advance level qi flow got integrate in. there is where the newtonian physics fail to explain but quantuum physics could. and imho, with a clear picture in the power generatuon will help one to handle power generation better.

and also know what type of power signature fit into what type of art/application. ie what type of power generation dna WCK's core Slt is developing and who is the mother of this power signature/dna. shaolin?taiji?emai? white crane of fujian? and what is the uniqueness?


to be basic and simple, let examine between 'dead lifting and squat lifting. anyone care to share what you see if you use my model to classified them?


peace

I don't really know anything about qi flow and mother power signature/dna. I really can't keep up with a conversation on Newtonian physics and quantum physics.. sorry. I guess my education isn't high enough.. i hated science anyway in school(English too).



The human body doesn't really move in a "linear" fashion.
Its all rotation and pivoting of some sort.

Look at the most powerful punches, they are rotational in nature, even fajing is circular, just look at chen silk reeling power, its all rotational.

Look at a sprinter for example, and even a powerlifing movement, if you follow the whole axis of movement, is not a linear one.

The body generates power at its best when it is rotational.
Round kick VS front kick for example.
I wouldn't say doesn't move in a linear fashion, but there are many ways to move. Rotating is a very powerful method. I wouldn't count out the push kick, I have personally been kick by someone would felt like a mack truck hitting me. Its all about setup, timing, and follow up (distance too). A quick jab has its place and a strong powerful jab also does. So does a cross and a back fist. Wing Chun has all these variations on techniques. We have a “round” kick too. I am not saying ours is better or worse its unique to our style. I personally think that MT's round kick is probably the most powerful kick you will find.. yet I would never use it. Its doesn't fit me. I am not stating any opinion on impact power, only looking to spur conversation about other aspects of Wing Chun not normally talked about.

[Ali. R]

We all talked about wing chun power and even fancy it up when talking about it… One, who just started training in this wonderful system, will never understand what the h*ll is going on; wing chun power, wing chun clips, get it?????

I’ve seen all kinds of clip’s on this thread but none of them with a wing chun demonstrations on them, just has I said earlier we only turn when bridge contact is made… But until then, you are only as good as your stance; true power comes for the floor…

Here s a master within my wing chun family system, (“Leung Sheung”), ‘Yip Man’s first Hong Kong student ‘Master Fung’… This is what I’m taught and drilled to do for generating power… Stance, stance, stance, your stance!!!!!

"You are only as good as your stance" 'Master Woo'.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iUx2SCIqhc


Ali Rahim.

[t_niehoff]

From my perspective:

The basis for WCK power is the YJKYM, which is not a "stance" (your feet can be in all kinds of positions and you can still be using YJKYM) but a way of using the body to generate power. That mechanism is incorporated into everything we do, and it could be said that everything else is but a variation on that theme. That mechanic is extremely powerful and solid when developed. And it makes a lot of sense if you view WCK as an attached (contact) fighting method. The task determines the mechanics.

When we turn, we are using that same mechanic that we use when stationary only adapted for turning, turning the YJKYM -- and it is the same when we step: we are using YJKYM while stepping/moving. All the "footwork" is YJKYM, stationary or moving. So it is not a rotational power like boxing or baseball uses -- which is great for what they are doing (the task determines the mechanics).

[YungChun]

From my perspective:

The basis for WCK power is the YJKYM, which is not a "stance" (your feet can be in all kinds of positions and you can still be using YJKYM) but a way of using the body to generate power. That mechanism is incorporated into everything we do, and it could be said that everything else is but a variation on that theme. That mechanic is extremely powerful and solid when developed. And it makes a lot of sense if you view WCK as an attached (contact) fighting method. The task determines the mechanics.

When we turn, we are using that same mechanic that we use when stationary only adapted for turning, turning the YJKYM -- and it is the same when we step: we are using YJKYM while stepping/moving. All the "footwork" is YJKYM, stationary or moving. So it is not a rotational power like boxing or baseball uses -- which is great for what they are doing (the task determines the mechanics).
Wow you sure are reading a lot into a static, funny looking, old world, non-fighting, non-moving, dead, form... LOL! ;)

[monji112000]

We all talked about wing chun power and even fancy it up when talking about it… One, who just started training in this wonderful system, will never understand what the h*ll is going on; wing chun power, wing chun clips, get it?????

I’ve seen all kinds of clip’s on this thread but none of them with a wing chun demonstrations on them, just has I said earlier we only turn when bridge contact is made… But until then, you are only as good as your stance; true power comes for the floor…

Here s a master within my wing chun family system, (“Leung Sheung”), ‘Yip Man’s first Hong Kong student ‘Master Fung’… This is what I’m taught and drilled to do for generating power… Stance, stance, stance, your stance!!!!!

"You are only as good as your stance" 'Master Woo'.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iUx2SCIqhc


Ali Rahim.

stance is great and you could have a "structure" like a wall.. but thats not going to help in every situation. in order to get hurt by a wall you must walk into it. Walls do not move. In my opinion all of the fight revolves around not bridging and a longer distance. This is call by some as "long bridge". Bridging in a fight (my personal experience) is only for a second becouse people are moving. Nobody stands and tries to "stick" to you. its like thinking playing a video car game is the same as driving a real car.

[k gledhill]

we arent actually turning away from our attack lines doing chum kil but facing them to deliver the unified alignment from rear leg force into ground + solid structured stance+ elbow in strikes = focused point of punch ...oh yeah and lots of seung ma -tpi ma drills so you can actually use it in motion to an attacking body....and breath 2 ,3 ,4 ......

chum kil is for pointing the line and not letting the others line point at you...the genration of force is from the short fast muscle twitch of the quadriceps and core alignment to allow that force to be delivered to a fist trying to also deliver an idea tacticly while fighting...short steps in close , kicks or long steps to make continous pressure using hips driven behind the kicks and the same heel down idea to add force..Ibve kicked a few ninja's in my time , a good kick willlft a guy off his feet like a bowling ball hitting a pin squarely ...the force is a line like the punch , the unity of the two heels as the unity of the heel fist....one kick is all it takes ....most of the time :D sometimes you have to kick the ninja in the head as he tries to hurt the vessel that houses your soul....[sorry dale] and breath 4,5,6...

chum kil to point the slt there is no force against force in parries / deflectng strkes , but you need the ch-sao to develop the integrity of the whole under pressure of real forces testing it , perfecting it...

nobody will feel the leg force genrated , many try to explain it as chi...:D and enroll you in a weekend " plane dragging by nutsak" weekend at JFK .:D

even students of several years need coaching to make them confident they are using the body as a whole not just the arms . a small women can generate a good fight from nothing in a surprise encounter doing this ... explosive response with unified delivery to an unsuspecting ninja. ;) 'then "leg it" like paul vunak shows in his videos :D

[YungChun]

In my opinion all of the fight revolves around not bridging and a longer distance. This is call by some as "long bridge". Bridging in a fight (my personal experience) is only for a second becouse people are moving. Nobody stands and tries to "stick" to you. its like thinking playing a video car game is the same as driving a real car.
While I agree WCK has long bridge IMO it is a close range 'connected' method or emphasis.

Oh and we don't seek to stick...

It's just a range--close range or CQC, and therefore often 'connected'...

[monji112000]

While I agree WCK has long bridge IMO it is a close range 'connected' method or emphasis.

Oh and we don't seek to stick...

It's just a range--close range or CQC, and therefore often 'connected'...

I believe this is based on personal choice, some fighters focused on more longer range and others focused on short "CQC". My experience pushes me to believe and fight a specific way, that doesn't mean other people can't come up with a completely different "expression". The closer you are the faster pace you must move. The distance forces you to apply things slightly different. I can't throw a jab cross if the distance isn't right.. or a push kick. I can elbow and knee ect.. Distance also changes strategy, fighting in the inside or outside relates to distance also.


again to use a medium everyone can relate too, just look at all the boxers. You see so many different type of boxers, yet they use basically the same ideas. If I am too far away from someone they must come to me to attack me. In self-defense I believe this is the best scenario. No matter what the person does it becomes very obvious his intentions. If I am the aggressor this isn't optimal.. but I don't believe in being the aggressor in SD.

[t_niehoff]

Wow you sure are reading a lot into a static, funny looking, old world, non-fighting, non-moving, dead, form... LOL! ;)

I am not reading anything into any form. I'm not talking about forms. I'm talking about dynamic, adaptive actions. When you put things into forms, you kill them.

[t_niehoff]

While I agree WCK has long bridge IMO it is a close range 'connected' method or emphasis.

Oh and we don't seek to stick...

It's just a range--close range or CQC, and therefore often 'connected'...

If you are "in range", close enough to hit or be hit, and you don't control your opponent -- which requires contact, an attachment -- you will end up trading.

[YungChun]

If I am too far away from someone they must come to me to attack me. In self-defense I believe this is the best scenario.
No matter the range one prefers to fight in this is true..


The closer you are the faster pace you must move.

I would say more economical and positionally accurate vs "faster" although speed is important too. This is a position and structure based system after all emphasizing position, leverage, economy and many other things specifically because of the close range tool set and methods in the system.


The way you apply things also change slightly.

It changes a lot when you are in close range.. At close range you have many added elements, not the least of which is control, the ability to impart force into the opponent, break his structure and balance, the centerline, core tactics that don't really work from an outside position. And IME in the street, most of the time real violence doesn't keep it's distance.. :)

[Ali. R]

If you are "in range", close enough to hit or be hit, and you don't control your opponent -- which requires contact, an attachment -- you will end up trading.


Just like all arts (requires contact, and attachment) , then just fight your fight...
If you fight without contact then, fight without contact... :confused:

But the wing chun system works well using contact... ;)

Take Care,


Ali Rahim.

[Knifefighter]

We all talked about wing chun power and even fancy it up when talking about it… One, who just started training in this wonderful system, will never understand what the h*ll is going on; wing chun power, wing chun clips, get it?????

I’ve seen all kinds of clip’s on this thread but none of them with a wing chun demonstrations on them, just has I said earlier we only turn when bridge contact is made… But until then, you are only as good as your stance; true power comes for the floor…

Here s a master within my wing chun family system, (“Leung Sheung”), ‘Yip Man’s first Hong Kong student ‘Master Fung’… This is what I’m taught and drilled to do for generating power… Stance, stance, stance, your stance!!!!!

"You are only as good as your stance" 'Master Woo'.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iUx2SCIqhc


Ali Rahim.

LOL... I'm always amazed that people still believe these parlor tricks.

[YungChun]

If you are "in range", close enough to hit or be hit, and you don't control your opponent -- which requires contact, an attachment -- you will end up trading.
I agree that control is a part of the system... Whereby we can control or issue force with one hand/arm and strike with the other.. On the other hand, pardon the pun depending on what they do, one may need to only strike with body power to control, eg blast them down. Well delivered strikes under the right conditions DO CONTROL AND DISPLACE the opponent's counter attacks.. This is why we attack their core with ours... The stream of water--continuous flow of attack..

Start with your hands down and let me start attacking you.. I guarantee I'll control you.. :D

I have seen many of Alan's clips where he is doing just that--controlling via striking, perhaps he will comment.

[Ali. R]

LOL... I'm always amazed that people still believe these parlor tricks.


They believed you, didn’t they? :rolleyes:


Ali Rahim.

[t_niehoff]

I agree that control is a part of the system... Whereby we can control or issue force with one hand/arm and strike with the other.. On the other hand, pardon the pun depending on what they do, one may need to only strike with body power to control, eg blast them down. Well delivered strikes under the right conditions DO CONTROL AND DISPLACE the opponent's counter attacks..

Keep your hands down and let me start attacking you.. I guarantee I'll control you.. :D

I have seen many of Alan's clips where he is doing just that--controlling via striking, perhaps he will comment.

Yes, strikes can sometimes act to "control" (in your sense, not mine) an opponent. But IME you can't count on that. Because if you do, and your strike doesn't do everything you need it to, you will find yourself trading (eating punches) because you are "in range". The WCK method is to control while hitting. That control can take many forms depending on what the opponent is doing. For me, I always try to have more than one sort of control at a time (back-up control, for lack of a better term). In that way, if my strike does what I want it to do, great! And if not, I still have control and the safety that comes with it.

[Ultimatewingchun]

I don't believe this thread. :eek: :cool:

The more body rotation you use - the more power you generate on your punches and kicks.

The more pure linear movement of the body - the less power.

Duh!!! :rolleyes:

But when you're in very close quarters with the opportunity to land multiple straight line strikes - then completely linear striking with some extra power coming from the legs and hips wedging forward (and done perhaps with just some slight hip/shoulder rotation)...can work very well.

I think they call it wing chun kung fu. Great close quarter striking system.

But when not in very close quarters with the opportunity to strike or kick - then ROTATE.

(Unless of course landing a nice tight close quarter hook or uppercut is there for the taking).

[YungChun]

Yes, strikes can sometimes act to "control" (in your sense, not mine) an opponent. But IME you can't count on that. Because if you do, and your strike doesn't do everything you need it to, you will find yourself trading (eating punches) because you are "in range". The WCK method is to control while hitting. That control can take many forms depending on what the opponent is doing. For me, I always try to have more than one sort of control at a time (back-up control, for lack of a better term). In that way, if my strike does what I want it to do, great! And if not, I still have control and the safety that comes with it.
All I can say is control with whatever you need.. Smaller folks may see things differently, I know 95&#37; of the time I will send my opponent flying away or crashing down to the ground if I am using my body to deliver attacks into his core.. You have to define when something is appropriate or not, and that depends on the person... Again, if his arm/hands are leaving the line, meaning moving away from his core then I want to attack that core not chase his hand(s).. But I agree there are exceptions and again if he is wide open I am going to blow him down and I have the power to do it.

[YungChun]

I don't believe this thread. :eek: :cool:

The more body rotation you use - the more power you generate on your punches and kicks.

The more pure linear movement of the body - the less power.

Duh!!! :rolleyes:

But when you're in very close quarters with the opportunity to land multiple straight line strikes - then completely linear striking with some extra power coming from the legs and hips wedging forward (and done perhaps with just some slight hip/shoulder rotation)...can work very well.

I think they call it wing chun kung fu. Great close quarter striking system.

But when not in very close quarters with the opportunity to strike or kick - then ROTATE.

(Unless of course landing a nice tight close quarter hook or uppercut is there for the taking).
Small rotational boost or 'shaking' can be almost ever present.. Torquing can also be used on the inside via guiding or pulling with one hand and hitting with the other among other things like elbows, etc.. Just like boxers often use linear moves to enter, then once he is stunned they will move in, set and apply full body torque to apply hooks and so on..

And I don't think the linear power is lacking just different..

[Ali. R]

I don't believe this thread. :eek: :cool:

The more body rotation you use - the more power you generate on your punches and kicks.

The more pure linear movement of the body - the less power.

Duh!!! :rolleyes:

But when you're in very close quarters with the opportunity to land multiple straight line strikes - then completely linear striking with some extra power coming from the legs and hips wedging forward (and done perhaps with just some slight hip/shoulder rotation)...can work very well.

I think they call it wing chun kung fu. Great close quarter striking system.

But when not in very close quarters with the opportunity to strike or kick - then ROTATE.

(Unless of course landing a nice tight close quarter hook or uppercut is there for the taking).


Sure you don't believe this thread, your stance would let you…

Should I explain why???


Ali Rahim.

[t_niehoff]

I don't believe this thread. :eek: :cool:

The more body rotation you use - the more power you generate on your punches and kicks.

The more pure linear movement of the body - the less power.

Duh!!! :rolleyes:


This is because you have not developed your YJKYM (TWC doesn't use that power source), so all you have is rotation.



But when you're in very close quarters with the opportunity to land multiple straight line strikes - then completely linear striking with some extra power coming from the legs and hips wedging forward (and done perhaps with just some slight hip/shoulder rotation)...can work very well.

I think they call it wing chun kung fu. Great close quarter striking system.

But when not in very close quarters with the opportunity to strike or kick - then ROTATE.

(Unless of course landing a nice tight close quarter hook or uppercut is there for the taking).

When you are in contact (attached) and rotate for power, you'll find yourself on your ass if your opponent is any good. Here's a simple demo: you and a partner face each other in matching "neutral" stances (like you do in chi sao) and have a partner hold on to your upper arms, now rotate quickly and try to hit him. Have him just twist you (in the direction of your turn) to throw you off balance. This is your flying lesson. Turning on the inside (when in contact) is almost always a mistake. The only reason to turn is to break the opponent's structure.

[Ali. R]

This is because you have not developed your YJKYM (TWC doesn't use that power source), so all you have is rotation.


Oh Yeah!!! :D:D:D


Ali Rahim.

[k gledhill]

turning to face and striking at the same time ends up on what foot for delivery and follow through ? balistic lateral force of the arms is so we dont turn away from thre opponent to try and generate force and over turn ourselves before a guy in front of us fighting, using just that mistake... i think terence and I agree on soemthing:eek:

[monji112000]

I don't believe this thread. :eek: :cool:

The more body rotation you use - the more power you generate on your punches and kicks.

The more pure linear movement of the body - the less power.

Duh!!! :rolleyes:

But when you're in very close quarters with the opportunity to land multiple straight line strikes - then completely linear striking with some extra power coming from the legs and hips wedging forward (and done perhaps with just some slight hip/shoulder rotation)...can work very well.

I think they call it wing chun kung fu. Great close quarter striking system.

But when not in very close quarters with the opportunity to strike or kick - then ROTATE.

(Unless of course landing a nice tight close quarter hook or uppercut is there for the taking).

the name wing chun means different things to different people. Its just a name.
I can't say if landing multiple strikes are going to be the best scenario or not you need more detail. Multiple weak strikes in close distance may be the worst thing possible. It may make more sense (safer) to get some distance and hit with more power. That may not be possible so you may need to setup a stronger attack with a weaker attack. its all relative. I personally prefer the weaker attacks at a longer distance, becouse of their speed. I can setup for a kick or knee.


I agree that control is a part of the system... Whereby we can control or issue force with one hand/arm and strike with the other.. On the other hand, pardon the pun depending on what they do, one may need to only strike with body power to control, eg blast them down. Well delivered strikes under the right conditions DO CONTROL AND DISPLACE the opponent's counter attacks.. This is why we attack their core with ours... The stream of water--continuous flow of attack..

Start with your hands down and let me start attacking you.. I guarantee I'll control you.. :D

I have seen many of Alan's clips where he is doing just that--controlling via striking, perhaps he will comment.
Striking is a very effective way to control the opponent and setup.
I have started many fights with my hands down, I wouldn't suggest it but I didn't have much of a choice.

Distance doesn't limit your ability to use your whole body in your strikes, a knee or elbow still needs more than just the power from the limb. I can sop sao from a close distance and still use my whole body. You don't need to be static to use "structure". just look at all the sports that use good "structure". a perfect example is a runner at the mark. Watch a good runner its like a explosion.. :o

[t_niehoff]

All I can say is control with whatever you need.. Smaller folks may see things differently, I know 95% of the time I will send my opponent flying away or crashing down to the ground if I am using my body to deliver attacks into his core.. You have to define when something is appropriate or not, and that depends on the person... Again, if his arm/hands are leaving the line, meaning moving away from his core then I want to attack that core not chase his hand(s).. But I agree there are exceptions and again if he is wide open I am going to blow him down and I have the power to do it.

You can't "wait" to see if your strike works to see whether it was "appropriate" -- I assume it won't work. I plan for the worst and hope for the best. If you hope for the best (my strike will takecare of it) and it doesn't, you're eating punches. If you plan for the worst and your strike does take care of it -- great! But if not, you've lost nothing.

Seriously, go down to a good MMA gym and realistically spar with some decent people -- see if you get the same 95% "success rate". You won't. Not by a long measure. And I'm not saying this to be a jerk. But I know from experience that the things we think work so well in class, against other WCK people, against other nonfighters, etc. just fall apart when you try them against competant people in realistic sparring/fighting. When you experience that, it will change your perception and your views.

[monji112000]

turning to face and striking at the same time ends up on what foot for delivery and follow through ? balistic lateral force of the arms is so we dont turn away from thre opponent to try and generate force and over turn ourselves before a guy in front of us fighting, using just that mistake... i think terence and I agree on soemthing:eek:

I don't follow you. What is ballistic lateral force? what is ykjm whatever, is that just a horse stance?:confused:

[YungChun]

You can't "wait" to see if your strike works to see whether it was "appropriate" -- I assume it won't work. I plan for the worst and hope for the best. If you hope for the best (my strike will takecare of it) and it doesn't, you're eating punches. If you plan for the worst and your strike does take care of it -- great! But if not, you've lost nothing.

Seriously, go down to a good MMA gym and realistically spar with some decent people -- see if you get the same 95&#37; "success rate". You won't. Not by a long measure. And I'm not saying this to be a jerk. But I know from experience that the things we think work so well in class, against other WCK people, against other nonfighters, etc. just fall apart when you try them against competant people in realistic sparring/fighting. When you experience that, it will change your perception and your views.
I've even seen this work in the UFC.. Looked like chain punching, but it wasn't.. I think Dale knows the match, or someone.. Hit him all the way across the octagon and KO'd him.

Once I get my position and IF his arms, hands are leaving the line it's my job to take his space with my body and drive through him with my ATTACKS.. See position and energy are just as much about striking.. Getting in and under him while you deliver powerful and continuous strikes is also a part of the system and honestly more useful than many other things within IMO..

Again... We see Alan doing this--using striking to control, I know I can do it too as I have done it, the key is not in WAITING to see, the key is knowing you have the distance, position and feeling your power breaking him down, that simple..

[k gledhill]

the freefighting is based off linear strikes /kicks against someone trying to use conventional turning force...blocks across their lines, aka 'chasing' a straight line with a curve ..we only need to worry about whats coming back on the line we are facing because of this knowledge...
a onesided fighter hasnt got to much to offer a fighter who fights with 2 arms equally , but not extended together ...fighting one unskilled in intercepting , beyond a jab

[sanjuro_ronin]

I've even seen this work in the UFC.. Looked like chain punching, but it wasn't.. I think Dale knows the match, or someone.. Hit him all the way across the octagon and KO'd him.

Once I get my position and IF his arms, hands are leaving the line it's my job to take his space with my body and drive through him with my ATTACKS.. See position and energy are just as much about striking.. Getting in and under him while you deliver powerful and continuous strikes is also a part of the system and honestly more useful than many other things within IMO..

Again... We see Alan doing this--using striking to control, I know I can do it too as I have done it, the key is not in WAITING to see, the key is knowing you have the distance, position and feeling your power breaking him down, that simple..

That was victor belfort.

[monji112000]

the freefighting is based off linear strikes /kicks against someone trying to use conventional turning force...blocks across their lines, aka 'chasing' a straight line with a curve ..we only need to worry about whats coming back on the line we are facing because of this knowledge...
a onesided fighter hasnt got to much to offer a fighter who fights with 2 arms equally , but not extended together ...fighting one unskilled in intercepting , beyond a jab
nope still lost again I am pretty dumb. back on the line? how did it get off the line? what line? How do you fight with 2 arms equally? are you talking about a po pi or flower fist or something were you extend both hands at the same time?

[YungChun]

That was victor belfort.
Thank you.. :)

[monji112000]

That was victor belfort.

yah and he was turning his body. its not a chain punch, its nothing like a chain punch.

[YungChun]

yah and he was turning his body. its not a chain punch, its nothing like a chain punch.
Well the match I am referring to involved the attacker hitting using linear strikes in rapid succession into the center or core of the opponent, which drove him across the octagon and into la la land.. Conceptually identical to the tactic I am talking about.

[Ali. R]

listern to heart, using heart,
speak with heart, how rare are they in this world.

peace


Hello Hendrik,

Peace and much love too you… :):D:)


Ali Rahim.

[k gledhill]

2 arms that can reach over 1 arm and be either hitting or the other deflecting, trapping , parrying while both can alternate to strike the basic idea of SLT ,,, while FACING a straight on line of attack [ but our line is never face to face if we can avoid it, ie flanking , blidsides] against a guy who fights one sided ..lead left jab etc... once we start to fight we maintain facing to either let the guy move across our centerlines on his own TURNING TRYING TO USE FORCE and fight in an opportunistic manner, or we grab him and put him where we want ;) 2 hands in rotation along a self clearing zone , done at the beginning of every form and maneuvered by chum kil.....some think its a hi lo w double block called gaun sao ? why do double block before every form ; ) its an attacking offensive way..

[sanjuro_ronin]

Well the match I am referring to involved the attacker hitting using linear strikes in rapid succession into the center or core of the opponent, which drove him across the octagon and into la la land.. Conceptually identical to the tactic I am talking about.

and it actually worked.

[YungChun]

and it actually worked.
And I would suggest that the reason it worked is because the conditions I mentioned earlier were in effect..

[sanjuro_ronin]

And I would suggest that the reason it worked is because the conditions I mentioned earlier were in effect..

Nope, Victor had his chi in the right place :D

[YungChun]

Nope, Victor had his chi in the right place :D
Goes without saying.. :cool:

[LoneTiger108]

2 hands in rotation along a self clearing zone , done at the beginning of every form and maneuvered by chum kil.....some think its a hi lo w double block called gaun sao ? why do double block before every form ; ) its an attacking offensive way..

At least someone here is talking of Chum Kil!! ;)

Surely Wing Chun practitioners know that this is the form for developing 'power'? It's funny really that I'm agreeing with Kevin here as we have had our cross-words, but he's talking sense!

Except for the quote above.

The 'cross-arm' you talk of here IS Gaan Sau my friend. The answer you really wanna know is why is it done before EVERY form?

Hmmm... I have my 'theory' if you really wanna know Kevin!

Other than that, it's Chum Kil all the way for me people! I'm not saying that is all you need, but it's the best starting point you'll find in any Martial Art to begin developing power, as this is simply why it was created.

[k gledhill]

not gaun sao.? ...is tut sao one gaun sao trading for the other ? ;) draw a line with your wrists x the imaginary plane before you , this plane is our striking line , but how to work it ? WHY to work it :D its not as simple as A- >B :D guys can do A<-B back and trade punches ...

not gaun sao's... if you empty your cup you may find it.

[sanjuro_ronin]

. if you empty your cup you may find it.

Groin cup ???:confused:

[monji112000]

Well the match I am referring to involved the attacker hitting using linear strikes in rapid succession into the center or core of the opponent, which drove him across the octagon and into la la land.. Conceptually identical to the tactic I am talking about.

I have seen most of his fights and I am pretty sure I know what fight you are talking about but his fighting style was clear in many fights...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5FJjX9CeDI&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j--gzYpGpnw&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0uAqHPhlYM

You can clearly see him twisting his upper half of is body and using more than just his arm for generating power. What makes his style so effective is the sheer force and speed he over powers his opponents. My honest opinion this isn't very practical or realistic for most people in a average situation.

I found the fight I think you are talking about.. its probably the one with wanderlei. Given a second fight it probably would not go the same way. You can't overpower and be faster than everyone , every time and catching everyone off gaurd... JMO although allot of fights are won on the streets that way (normally with the bigger person winning).

[LoneTiger108]

not gaun sao's... if you empty your cup you may find it.

Emptied many times K (in the 'mind' sense sanjuro :D) and I still see Gaan Sau. We practice 'Gaan Sau Toi Wan' as a set to develop this central axis you speak of, for attacking and defending, but the key word is Gaan, which can mean to cultivate. Commonly, I believe most Lee Shing Family practice this movement during certain Hei Gung sets, to develop/cultivate Hei (Chi).

Objectively, if you leave the left hand in its first position while the right lowers, sink on the left knee and angle yourself to find the commonly practised (and seen) Gaan posture. Used to cover all paths when you can't actually see whats coming, and a signature of a certain Wing Chun ancestor maybe.

So, therefore, to generate power you must first learn to cultivate power.

From what little I 'think I know', I tend to use a heavy pole for this type of training, and sometimes just a well heavy pair of blades (back in the day of course)

[Edmund]

You can clearly see him twisting his upper half of is body and using more than just his arm for generating power. What makes his style so effective is the sheer force and speed he over powers his opponents. My honest opinion this isn't very practical or realistic for most people in a average situation.


Of course Vitor's striking wasn't just arm power.
I think you believe you can't generate body power from any movement other than rotating your body.

Vitor didn't twist that much. He wouldn't have been able to walk forward and rapidly punch at the same time if he twisted his hips a lot.
And he still had enough power to knock Silva back.

Twisting as much as you can is not practical. That's not boxing.




I found the fight I think you are talking about.. its probably the one with wanderlei. Given a second fight it probably would not go the same way. You can't overpower and be faster than everyone , every time and catching everyone off gaurd... JMO although allot of fights are won on the streets that way (normally with the bigger person winning).

Is there a lot of point doing stuff that's intentionally slower and not overpowering?

[k gledhill]

Groin cup ???:confused:


in your case a dribble cup ;) catch all that drooling :D

[k gledhill]

Emptied many times K (in the 'mind' sense sanjuro :D) and I still see Gaan Sau. We practice 'Gaan Sau Toi Wan' as a set to develop this central axis you speak of, for attacking and defending, but the key word is Gaan, which can mean to cultivate. Commonly, I believe most Lee Shing Family practice this movement during certain Hei Gung sets, to develop/cultivate Hei (Chi).

Objectively, if you leave the left hand in its first position while the right lowers, sink on the left knee and angle yourself to find the commonly practised (and seen) Gaan posture. Used to cover all paths when you can't actually see whats coming, and a signature of a certain Wing Chun ancestor maybe.

So, therefore, to generate power you must first learn to cultivate power.

From what little I 'think I know', I tend to use a heavy pole for this type of training, and sometimes just a well heavy pair of blades (back in the day of course)


common misunderstanding....not gaun sao's its only done low to stop beginners lifting the elbows when doing the line to x and strike on in rotation, same with tut sao ..somethink tut sao is a way of escaping a grab, only a fool would think this.

why extend x at the wrists before every form ? to make the line we strike on..how we do this and how we work the idea is VT . once you see this way you wont go back to gaun sao's ...ever ; )

[LoneTiger108]

..somethink tut sao is a way of escaping a grab, only a fool would think this.

why extend x at the wrists before every form ? to make the line we strike on..how we do this and how we work the idea is VT . once you see this way you wont go back to gaun sao's ...ever ; )

What is this tut sao? (translation?) I'm not too familiar with this term, as dialects vary.

I can honestly see what you're saying, as I've read this explanation of x hands many times. I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm trying to share another view from another family. I believe the set to be Ip Mans signature, but don't take my word for it, just as the Fist is Wing Chuns. Ask around.

My idea obviously isn't yours k, but I'd still be open to learning how you generate power with your VT as this is something Wong Shun Leurng was known for.

[k gledhill]

Well I certainly didnt make it up ;) I never heard this kind of thinking either..but who taught WSL ? ;) a simple action unlocking a way of freefighting , instead of crap as t & dale like to point out ;) who can blame them ?

[k gledhill]

"in response to this ... What is this tut sao? (translation?) I'm not too familiar with this term, as dialects vary.

I can honestly see what you're saying, as I've read this explanation of x hands many times. I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm trying to share another view from another family. I believe the set to be Ip Mans signature, but don't take my word for it, just as the Fist is Wing Chuns. Ask around.

My idea obviously isn't yours k, but I'd still be open to learning how you generate power with your VT as this is something Wong Shun Leurng was known for. "




some call it senk sao /tut sao ...shaving hands ..nothing to do with shaving ;) drawing a line in rotation with wrist...followed by punches doing the same but the senk/tut, is teaching not the lead but the rear to constantly be available to attack from the transfer protocol of attack defence or plan B. the punches are obviously focused on the hit.... combine the 2 simple actions /ideas and you start to see its teaching a begining student the rudiments of arms angles ideas in SLT , but without the angling and use of chumkil its not fully functional ... take this idea and add methods to clear its way pak-bong-jut- and you start to see what it can be .....
your wrists/forearms replace the other on the line seamlessly allowing a transfer of one arm along the attack line to the next without opening up your centerline to attack..if you meet anything on this line chi-sao takes care of it without thinking

it only functions froma blind side /flank..or rather it functions if it has to from this angle..attacking in the center is a bozo nono ...

we dont leave the attack line for this reason to cahse hands because by our own positional maneuvering are always facing one arm/side the idea of throwing one into the air to block while the other hits is wrong thinking , more application mind , bil gee does use chasing hands for that reason, being in the bad spot....er we are attacking not standing turning this way and that following hands ...I call it head hunting , but thats my own way of translation/thinking ;)

[LoneTiger108]

... combine the 2 simple actions /ideas and you start to see its teaching a begining student the rudiments of arms angles ideas in SLT , but without the angling and use of chumkil its not fully functional ... take this idea and add methods to clear its way pak-bong-jut- and you start to see what it can be .....
your wrists/forearms replace the other on the line seamlessly allowing a transfer of one arm along the attack line to the next without opening up your centerline to attack..if you meet anything on this line chi-sao takes care of it without thinking

I like the way you've explained this concept k. We normally refer to this type of fistwork (bold) as 'Gaan Sau Chun Kuen' and I've seen other mainland families refer to it as 'Sup Jii Chun Kuen' (Figure 10 Spring Fist) VERY famous back in the HK movie days!

You're bang on the money about the use of Chum Kil with this posture IMO, as another reason we press one arm against the other is in preparation for that first bridge contact, then the form comes alive.

Characters like t and Dale only critique what they 'see', and we should all be aware that Wing Chun has more to it than just the 'image'. Each Sifu developed on their own, creating numerous interpretations.

It's the similarities I try to look for in everyone. Not the differences.

[t_niehoff]

I like the way you've explained this concept k. We normally refer to this type of fistwork (bold) as 'Gaan Sau Chun Kuen' and I've seen other mainland families refer to it as 'Sup Jii Chun Kuen' (Figure 10 Spring Fist) VERY famous back in the HK movie days!


"HK movie days." Enough said.



Characters like t and Dale only critique what they 'see', and we should all be aware that Wing Chun has more to it than just the 'image'. Each Sifu developed on their own, creating numerous interpretations.


People like me base their conclusions and opinions on evidence and reason (that is based on evidence), not stories, claims, movies, unrealistic exercises, theory, concepts, etc. It's amusing that you talk about "image" when this is at the root of fantasy-based martial arts.



It's the similarities I try to look for in everyone. Not the differences.

It doesn't matter if you look for similarities or differences among fantasy-based WCK -- it will all end up being fantasy. Instead, try looking for "truth", for genuine evidence, try not accepting anything unless there is good quality evidence to support it, develop some critical thinking skills, etc. If truth is what you are looking for, that is the only way to find it.

[monji112000]

"HK movie days." Enough said.



People like me base their conclusions and opinions on evidence and reason (that is based on evidence), not stories, claims, movies, unrealistic exercises, theory, concepts, etc. It's amusing that you talk about "image" when this is at the root of fantasy-based martial arts.



It doesn't matter if you look for similarities or differences among fantasy-based WCK -- it will all end up being fantasy. Instead, try looking for "truth", for genuine evidence, try not accepting anything unless there is good quality evidence to support it, develop some critical thinking skills, etc. If truth is what you are looking for, that is the only way to find it.

truth is relative. What you believe is the truth and what I believe is the truth are two completely different things. There is not "real" truth", becouse its all "written" from someone perspective.

[t_niehoff]

truth is relative. What you believe is the truth and what I believe is the truth are two completely different things. There is not "real" truth", becouse its all "written" from someone perspective.

Truth is not relative, and isn't based on perspective. This is nonsense. And it is the sort of nonsense that traditional guys and woo people use to "sell" their nonsense -- "we follow a different truth" sort of BS. Claims are not "truth", they are just claims. But it makes perfect sense for them to do that since they have no good quality evidence to use to support their claims.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Truth is not relative, and isn't based on perspective. This is nonsense. And it is the sort of nonsense that traditional guys and woo people use to "sell" their nonsense -- "we follow a different truth" sort of BS. Claims are not "truth", they are just claims. But it makes perfect sense for them to do that since they have no good quality evidence to use to support their claims.

Tyson's truth was that he could KO almost anyone, is that everyones else's truth?

Truth is subjective, facts aren't, I think you got the two confused.

[t_niehoff]

Tyson's truth was that he could KO almost anyone, is that everyones else's truth?

Truth is subjective, facts aren't, I think you got the two confused.

Facts are true (truth). Tyson could, at one time, KO almost everyone (or we couls say that he was a phenomenal boxer). That is true, it is a truth. It is true for everyone. Truth is not subjective. Fantasy is subjective.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Facts are true (truth). Tyson could, at one time, KO almost everyone (or we couls say that he was a phenomenal boxer). That is true, it is a truth. It is true for everyone. Truth is not subjective. Fantasy is subjective.

Rand would be proud of your view, narrow and all.

[monji112000]

Facts are true (truth). Tyson could, at one time, KO almost everyone (or we couls say that he was a phenomenal boxer). That is true, it is a truth. It is true for everyone. Truth is not subjective. Fantasy is subjective.
facts are also relative. its common knowledge that history is written by the opinions, and not some black/white "pure" fact based deity.

I am not saying black and white situations don't exist they just are very uncommon. Example: I went to a rangers game (love the rangers!), they won. Fact. Did they play well... depends on who you ask. Did the losing team do good.. also depends ect.. Does this technique work? everyone knows that any good technique has a good situations and bad situations for usage.

Nothing in life is black/white, truth/lie, good/evil, wrong/correct. Its all based on opinion. So who's opinion is right? stupid question! my opinion is always the correct one.:rolleyes:

[t_niehoff]

Rand would be proud of your view, narrow and all.

It's not "narrow" to reject fantasy, magical thinking, etc. Reality isn't "narrow". Sure, it isn't as expansive as fantasy, where all things are possible, where truth is relative and whatever you want it to be. And fantasy, magical thinking, etc. has its place (literature, art, etc.). And used outside that place, it is useless and counter-productive.

[t_niehoff]

facts are also relative. its common knowledge that history is written by the opinions, and not some black/white "pure" fact based deity.


Facts are not relative. Opinions are conclusions, not facts.



I am not saying black and white situations don't exist they just are very uncommon. Example: I went to a rangers game (love the rangers!), they won. Fact. Did they play well... depends on who you ask. Did the losing team do good.. also depends ect.. Does this technique work? everyone knows that any good technique has a good situations and bad situations for usage.


"Well" is a conclusion, and is relative (comparing things) not a fact.

A specific drug can "work" to treat a specific ailment. This can be proved with proper scientific testing. Does that mean it "works" in every case, all the time? No. What we mean by "work" is that "generally it has proven successful for most people in treating that ailment." It is the same with techniques. We say they "work" if the generally prove successful for most people in fighting (much of the time, in large number of trials, etc.). If they do, that will be a "fact" -- and it will be true.



Nothing in life is black/white, truth/lie, good/evil, wrong/correct. Its all based on opinion. So who's opinion is right? stupid question! my opinion is always the correct one.:rolleyes:

If all things are relative, if all things are opinion, then jump out of an airplane at 10,000 feet without a parachute. Gravity is an opinion, after all.

[sanjuro_ronin]

It's not "narrow" to reject fantasy, magical thinking, etc. Reality isn't "narrow". Sure, it isn't as expansive as fantasy, where all things are possible, where truth is relative and whatever you want it to be. And fantasy, magical thinking, etc. has its place (literature, art, etc.). And used outside that place, it is useless and counter-productive.

Its narrow to view things outside our personal truth as fantasy, yes.

[jesper]

If all things are relative, if all things are opinion, then jump out of an airplane at 10,000 feet without a parachute. Gravity is an opinion, after all.

And yet at least one person has survived that. guess said person didnt believe in facts :D

[sanjuro_ronin]

And yet at least one person has survived that. guess said person didnt believe in facts :D

I don't know about 10K, but there have been a few, more than one for sure.

[monji112000]

I don't know about 10K, but there have been a few, more than one for sure.

nobody is saying that nothing is solid and anyone can bend spoons with their mind. I have seen clips of a few people who have lived from crazy falls.. it doesn't defy gravity. gravity is measurable, its constant and its still relative. different places have more or less gravity. I am sure at some time we will figure a way to add and remove gravity like in the movies. (I will probably be long died by then)