Skill or Strength ??

[ginosifu]

If you had to make a choice between training your skill and training strength, which would it be and why? Lets say because of your job, wife and kids or time constraints that you only have enough time in your schedule to train only 1 thing.

Skill:
Fighting drills, timing and distancing drills, sparring techniques, 2 person fighting forms, hands on grappling, throwing etc etc.

Strength:
Push Ups, Dynamic Tension sets, Weight Lifting, Strength Forms, Resistance Training etc etc.

I know they all are important, but if you had to chose. Which is more important and why?

Ginosifu :p

[sanjuro_ronin]

If you had to make a choice between training your skill and training strength, which would it be and why? Lets say because of your job, wife and kids or time constraints that you only have enough time in your schedule to train only 1 thing.

Skill:
Fighting drills, timing and distancing drills, sparring techniques, 2 person fighting forms, hands on grappling, throwing etc etc.

Strength:
Push Ups, Dynamic Tension sets, Weight Lifting, Strength Forms, Resistance Training etc etc.

I know they all are important, but if you had to chose. Which is more important and why?

Ginosifu :p

You mean one at a time right? you can only train one thing per session?

[ginosifu]

Yes, only 1 thing at a atime.

To be more specific, for the next 6 months your time is limited to 1 hour of daily practice. Would it be strength or Skill that you would practice??


Ginosifu :p

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yes, only 1 thing at a atime.

To be more specific, for the next 6 months your time is limited to 1 hour of daily practice. Would it be strength or Skill that you would practice??


Ginosifu :p

I would alternate, just like I do now :)

I only have 90 mins, and I have never been a fan of doing both strength training and such AND skill based work together, though you can mix some of the same attributes into a Heavy Bag workout for example, I stil prefer to split up my "aerobic and anerobic" conditioning.

[bodhitree]

one hour a day every day, I'd split the week. I'd do sport specific strength 3 days a week, then technique 2 days, with the other days for rest/light/active recovery. you probably shouldn't strength train (if you really mean strength training) more than 4 days a week anyways!

[sanjuro_ronin]

one hour a day every day, I'd split the week. I'd do sport specific strength 3 days a week, then technique 2 days, with the other days for rest/light/active recovery. you probably shouldn't strength train (if you really mean strength training) more than 4 days a week anyways!

And alternate the next week - technique 3 days , ST 2.

As for how many days one should ST, now there is a can of worms !!
LOL !!

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I would work skill.

Why? Because with skill I can neutralize the threat and escape.

With just strength, all I can do is go force on force.

Besides, skill work will build strength as well, especially grappling styles.

Ideally we should train the major elements of Skills, Strength, Speed, Endurance flexibility and the heart needed to do the job. But if I could only do one, it would be skill.

[ginosifu]

one hour a day every day, I'd split the week. I'd do sport specific strength 3 days a week, then technique 2 days, with the other days for rest/light/active recovery. you probably shouldn't strength train (if you really mean strength training) more than 4 days a week anyways!

Strength Training:

I meant Martial Arts strength programs. Power Lifting or any weight lifting that requires downtime or resting intervals is not the type of strength training I was talking about.

Ginosifu :p

[Mook Jong]

train skill and drink this http://youtube.com/watch?v=dXdXSAqWdfI

[golden arhat]

I would work skill.

Why? Because with skill I can neutralize the threat and escape.

With just strength, all I can do is go force on force.

Besides, skill work will build strength as well, especially grappling styles.

Ideally we should train the major elements of Skills, Strength, Speed, Endurance flexibility and the heart needed to do the job. But if I could only do one, it would be skill.

BUT on the other hand


if u bulk up

and become a scary motherfuker

its less likely u'l get into fights at all because people would be scared to start them with you


and with strength u could simply rush people and throw them

[Scott Meneely]

Strength Training:

I meant Martial Arts strength programs. Power Lifting or any weight lifting that requires downtime or resting intervals is not the type of strength training I was talking about.

Ginosifu :p


functional strength is functional strength, whether your moving weights, boulders, linebackers, people, or whatever. If you're talking about push ups and stuff, that's muscular endurance, and you could do it for a warm up or a cool down!

[SevenStar]

I would work skill.

Why? Because with skill I can neutralize the threat and escape.

With just strength, all I can do is go force on force.

Besides, skill work will build strength as well, especially grappling styles.

Ideally we should train the major elements of Skills, Strength, Speed, Endurance flexibility and the heart needed to do the job. But if I could only do one, it would be skill.

not necessarily. it would depend on how much more skilled you are than the other guy. this post assumes that you severely outclass him.

[ginosifu]

functional strength is functional strength, whether your moving weights, boulders, linebackers, people, or whatever. If you're talking about push ups and stuff, that's muscular endurance, and you could do it for a warm up or a cool down!

I have a different opinon about strength.

Strength training such as power lifting and heavy body building increase strength! However they also build in such a way that they do not move well for martia arts moves. Over the last 20 years many students came to my school after lifting weights for many years. Their arms and shoulders were so thick and muscular that they could not move functionally the way the style / form asked them to move.

There is a old kung fu statement about arms / fists:

Arms should be like ropes, Fists should be like rocks at the end of the rope. Arms swing from the shoulders like they are literally ropes with rocks attached at the ends.

Yes you are correct, strength is strength, however, the results of your strength training will affect your martial arts movements.

Ginosifu :p

[SevenStar]

BUT on the other hand


if u bulk up

and become a scary motherfuker

its less likely u'l get into fights at all because people would be scared to start them with you


and with strength u could simply rush people and throw them


that is a good point. Intimidation is a powerful thing.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

That is just becasue they did body building, not strength training. Old school strongman training gives you real functional strength like what a martial artists needs. Why do you think so many modern gyms have gone back to that stuff in the last 5-7 years or so?

[Lucas]

In that case, by pass it all. Build a posse of guys wielding dark cars, clothes and sunglasses.

[Mr Punch]

functional strength is functional strength, whether your moving weights, boulders, linebackers, people, or whatever. If you're talking about push ups and stuff, that's muscular endurance, and you could do it for a warm up or a cool down!This is correct.


I have a different opinon about strength.Which is fine but seems to be based in your own anecdotal observation over science.


Strength training such as power lifting and heavy body building increase strength! However they also build in such a way that they do not move well for martia arts moves. Over the last 20 years many students came to my school after lifting weights for many years. Their arms and shoulders were so thick and muscular that they could not move functionally the way the style / form asked them to move. While I don't doubt your statement, the way they've been training is frankly wrong. These people have been tending to go for bodybuilding rather than strength training, and furthermore , they haven't ever been shown how to stretch out properly. I'll bet that also among your students and even among people who've dropped out of your school for whatever reason, there've also been functional strength trainers who you haven't noticed as such because they don't contradict this:


There is a old kung fu statement about arms / fists:

Arms should be like ropes, Fists should be like rocks at the end of the rope. Arms swing from the shoulders like they are literally ropes with rocks attached at the ends.


Yes you are correct, strength is strength, however, the results of your strength training will affect your martial arts movements.

Ginosifu :pCorrect. However, the effect may just as well be good.

In answer, I just train strength, endurance, stretching right now, because I dont have time to go and meet my training partners. Solo skill training is mostly a waste of time. Bagwork is OK, but I haven't been able to use my bag since we moved to a place with a smaller balcony. I've been training for a long time so the forms are only useful so I don't forget the forms: their effect on my martial functionality is long since finished.

[Mr Punch]

In that case, by pass it all. Build a posse of guys wielding dark cars, clothes and sunglasses.Pah, amateur! No clothes is far more intimidating than dark clothes.

:eek:

[Lucas]

Pah, amateur! No clothes is far more intimidating than dark clothes.

:eek:

I guess you're right....worked for the celts eh?

[SevenStar]

I have a different opinon about strength.

Strength training such as power lifting and heavy body building increase strength! However they also build in such a way that they do not move well for martia arts moves. Over the last 20 years many students came to my school after lifting weights for many years. Their arms and shoulders were so thick and muscular that they could not move functionally the way the style / form asked them to move.

There is a old kung fu statement about arms / fists:

Arms should be like ropes, Fists should be like rocks at the end of the rope. Arms swing from the shoulders like they are literally ropes with rocks attached at the ends.

Yes you are correct, strength is strength, however, the results of your strength training will affect your martial arts movements.

Ginosifu :p

bodybuilding is not conducive to martial arts movements, but powerlifting is great for it. the compound motions involved are great for martial arts.

[Yum Cha]

Shouldn't the first question be, "What do you want to achieve?"

Form competition?

Fighting?

General Aerobic Fitness?

Injury Recovery?

Weight gain/reduction?


Are you 6 foot 6, 300lbs or 5 foot 3, 110?

Are you 19 or 60?

There is no cure-all solution, each to their own weakneses for their own objectives.

[David Jamieson]

would you willingly give up one eye over two just to know what its like?
This kind of question for me is dead end when it is served without context.

[ginosifu]

Shouldn't the first question be, "What do you want to achieve?"

Form competition?

Fighting?

General Aerobic Fitness?

Injury Recovery?

Weight gain/reduction?


Are you 6 foot 6, 300lbs or 5 foot 3, 110?

Are you 19 or 60?



This is strictly Martial related training for self defense and fighting.

I have not lifted weights in my life and people have told me my grip is like steel and during some of my San Shou / Fighting matches I have broken bones and injured people internally (not on purpose). My Sifu has nicknamed me Doctor Destructo, because I break just about everything I touch (not just people).

Kung Fu strength training is different than weight lifting. Dynamic Tension sets, Horse stance, different type of push ups and internal core training have kept me strong.

In the end, peeps who lift weights the wrong way usually end up screwing up their kung fu.

Ginosifu :p

[Laukarbo]

theres a cantonese saying

first balls second power and third kung fu

[bawang]

true, strength beats ten techniques. repeating drills is good but mindless repeating is not as good, you just have to be "cooked" in your techniques. you can spend the time doing something more important. if imagine you only have one hour a day, then punching in a stance is good.

[bodhitree]

This is strictly Martial related training for self defense and fighting.

I have not lifted weights in my life and people have told me my grip is like steel and during some of my San Shou / Fighting matches I have broken bones and injured people internally (not on purpose). My Sifu has nicknamed me Doctor Destructo, because I break just about everything I touch (not just people).

Kung Fu strength training is different than weight lifting. Dynamic Tension sets, Horse stance, different type of push ups and internal core training have kept me strong.

In the end, peeps who lift weights the wrong way usually end up screwing up their kung fu.

Ginosifu :p

I have yet to see an example of proper strength training screwing up anything. Even golfers strength train now, using dynamic lifts. Again, horse stance, push ups, dynamic tension will not carry over to strength after a certain point. Muscular endurance certainly, but actual force generated, no. These type activities actually use a completely different bodily process for using energy. If your goals are for self defense, explosive power should be your thing! In most street fights, muscular endurance and conditioning are going to take a back seat to ogre strength! Working power is definately the way to go! If you said your goal was sport fighting I would say condiditoning would play a much larger role!


Please don't make assumptions about strength trianing that are inaccurate! Sprinters, boxers, mma fighters, golfers, football players, track and field players, and almost every power athlete strength trains! Given a good program it is only beneficial!

[sanjuro_ronin]

First thing to go is cardio, then flexability, then strength, Skill is the last thing to go, provided that all the above have a solid core and are not "fly by night".

Size and strength can trump skill, seen it a bunch of times.
Being only 5-6 and 170lbs and doing Ma for close to 30 years, I can tell you that to underestimate size and strength is not a smart thing to do, ever.

That said, there is NO reason why one must be sacraficed over the other if one is smart in their training and understands quality OVER quantity.

[Mr Punch]

I have not lifted weights in my life and people have told me my grip is like steel ...So, you have no experience about the subject you are talking about, about the discipline you are criticizing...? But you do have anecdotal evidence from 'people'...?
and during some of my San Shou / Fighting matches I have broken bones and injured people internally (not on purpose).Would you care to give us a few details precisely how and what parts of their bodies?
My Sifu has nicknamed me Doctor Destructo, because I break just about everything I touch (not just people). Not Doctor Clumsy then? And what's your sifu's name, Captain Hyperbole? Where can we buy the comic? :rolleyes:


Kung Fu strength training is different than weight lifting. Dynamic Tension sets, Horse stance, different type of push ups and internal core training have kept me strong.Dynamic tension sets like any kind of anaerobic isometrics, have their place in a good strength regime, as any good weights-based strength trainer will agree. Horse stance is another such isometric exercise. However, without some kind of supplementary and integrated strength programme the benefits will plateau very quickly.

Push-ups are good again as part of a sensible programme, but if tht is the only resistance exercise you do they are specifying muscle groups more than basic weight exercises like say, squats or deadlifts, and again without increasing the resistance by finding ever more extreme angles (hint: there is nowhere to go after a handstand push-up!) or increasing the weight (eg. push-ups with weights on your back - hence, er, weight training) you're not doing anything other than maintaining your fitness levels.

Your choice of words is 'have kept me strong' - I suspect if you are as strong as 'people' say, you were strong to begin with (so there is a substantial genetic factor or nurture: you were fighting to stay alive within the pack of wolves who raised you...?!) or the 'people' are puny.


In the end, peeps who lift weights the wrong way usually end up screwing up their kung fu.

Ginosifu :pSure. People whose form is bad or who don't stretch out will screw up more than just their kung fu. But people who rely completely on archaic solely skill training methods and ignore the strength aspects will get screwed up by those who train in an integrated whole body manner. In Japan it's shin, gi, tai (mind/spirit, technique, body) and I'm sure the Chinese have an equivalent... as Laukarbo has pointed out they have some more prosaic versions.

Good luck to you if that's the way you train, or sine you seem to indicate you can handle yourself, good luck to your students if that's the way you teach.

Finally, the fact that you call yourself Gino sifu and your sig includes a silly face :p , quite apart from your tone suggests that you didn't come here to discuss the question you posited, merely to hold court and tell people the 'right' answer. Stick around, you might learn something, 'sifu'.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Dynamic tension sets like any kind of anaerobic isometrics, have their place in a good strength regime, as any good weights-based strength trainer will agree.

There are isometric tension exercises ( static because there is "no" movement in isometrics) and there are Isokinetic exercises, which is where dynamic ( moving) tension exercise fall in, they are LESS intense than Irometrics for obvious reasons, BUT they train the muscles through the whole range of motion.

[Mr Punch]

Good point, my mistake. I knew there was another word for it. My point still stands, I reckon.

[bodhitree]

Mr. Punch,

You are one funny dude!!!:D

[sanjuro_ronin]

Good point, my mistake. I knew there was another word for it. My point still stands, I reckon.

You reckon correctly.

[Mr Punch]

Mr. Punch,

You are one funny dude!!!:DAnd a (barely flawed) genius. Your point?

:D

[bodhitree]

And a (barely flawed) genius. Your point?

:D

my point is you are a funny dude, i thought i made that quite clear!:D

[SouthernTiger]

So, you have no experience about the subject you are talking about, about the discipline you are criticizing...? But you do have anecdotal evidence from 'people'...? Would you care to give us a few details precisely how and what parts of their bodies?Not Doctor Clumsy then? And what's your sifu's name, Captain Hyperbole? Where can we buy the comic? :rolleyes:

Dynamic tension sets like any kind of anaerobic isometrics, have their place in a good strength regime, as any good weights-based strength trainer will agree. Horse stance is another such isometric exercise. However, without some kind of supplementary and integrated strength programme the benefits will plateau very quickly.

Push-ups are good again as part of a sensible programme, but if tht is the only resistance exercise you do they are specifying muscle groups more than basic weight exercises like say, squats or deadlifts, and again without increasing the resistance by finding ever more extreme angles (hint: there is nowhere to go after a handstand push-up!) or increasing the weight (eg. push-ups with weights on your back - hence, er, weight training) you're not doing anything other than maintaining your fitness levels.

Your choice of words is 'have kept me strong' - I suspect if you are as strong as 'people' say, you were strong to begin with (so there is a substantial genetic factor or nurture: you were fighting to stay alive within the pack of wolves who raised you...?!) or the 'people' are puny.

Sure. People whose form is bad or who don't stretch out will screw up more than just their kung fu. But people who rely completely on archaic solely skill training methods and ignore the strength aspects will get screwed up by those who train in an integrated whole body manner. In Japan it's shin, gi, tai (mind/spirit, technique, body) and I'm sure the Chinese have an equivalent... as Laukarbo has pointed out they have some more prosaic versions.

Good luck to you if that's the way you train, or sine you seem to indicate you can handle yourself, good luck to your students if that's the way you teach.

Finally, the fact that you call yourself Gino sifu and your sig includes a silly face :p , quite apart from your tone suggests that you didn't come here to discuss the question you posited, merely to hold court and tell people the 'right' answer. Stick around, you might learn something, 'sifu'.

Hmm...Mr. Punch is it possible for you to state your opinion without being condescending? It seems not... *rolleyes*

I think the whole purpose of ginosifu asking this question is merely a theoretical one. That is to say, which is more important in the big picture: skill or strength? Of course, this is purely hypothetical because no sane person would train one exclusively (unless you are Mr. Punch, who only needs to train strength because he seems to have perfected technique already...) :rolleyes:

To this, I think it would be hard for anyone to call themselves Martial Artists and say that strength takes presedence (sp?) over skill. If so, why even train martial arts? Trully, would it not just be better to be a powerlifter or strongman? If we had to choose one: as a martial artist, it should be skill; as a normal person, it should be strength.

Surely we could agree that training martial arts is about training the science of combat and how to use an opponent's force against himself. Otherwise, it is always the bigger, stronger, and faster man that wins.

Also, if we do want to talk about "weight training" and any inhibitory effects on martial arts, we would need to define lifts and methods more thoroughly to avoid blanket statements like, "weight training is bad."

For example, I am of the opinion that bench press is worthless for fighting arts. Deadlifts, squats, snatches, and other "without support" total body lifts are quite useful and I bleieve they should be in every martial artists training regimen.

Now, I will await Mr. Punch's cunningly condescending and pompous retort...

-Blake

[ginosifu]

Thank You Southern Tiger

Ginosifu :p

[sanjuro_ronin]

For example, I am of the opinion that bench press is worthless for fighting arts. Deadlifts, squats, snatches, and other "without support" total body lifts are quite useful and I bleieve they should be in every martial artists training regimen.

Worthless?
You sure your name isn't Terrence ? :D
Blanket statements, tsk, tsk.

[MasterKiller]

Surely we could agree that training martial arts is about training the science of combat and how to use an opponent's force against himself. Otherwise, it is always the bigger, stronger, and faster man that wins. When doesn't the bigger, stronger, faster win?

Where are all the little, weak, slow world champions?

[Lucas]

To choose one or the other would be silly of course.

However, in light of discussion.

I am of the mind to side with skill as well. Skill in itselft (proper structure/alignment, form of movement) can generate power and speed (speed of thought/reaction/synapses).

Strength is a definate must in real life.

Another boon for skill training, if we were to choose just one, is that it in itself will still provide you with a portion of strength training as well, to a degree.

[Lucas]

When doesn't the bigger, stronger, faster win?

Where are all the little, weak, slow world champions?

on the flip side. know any world champs with no skills?

takes both, so this is basically a redundant thread.

[sanjuro_ronin]

on the flip side. know any world champs with no skills?

takes both, so this is basically a redundant thread.

I do know some champs that DON'T have better skills than others that are NOT champs.
Actually I am sure a few here would be able to think of a few in any sport combat art.

[Shaolindynasty]

first balls second power and third kung fu


The third can't exsist without the first 2. What good is technique without the courage and power to make it work.

If you are low on time alternate the workouts.

[MasterKiller]

on the flip side. know any world champs with no skills?

takes both, so this is basically a redundant thread.

Tim Sylvia was world champ. He is less skilled than many, many others, including Arlovski whom he beat twice using his...um...size to his advantage.

[SouthernTiger]

When doesn't the bigger, stronger, faster win?

Where are all the little, weak, slow world champions?

Are you serious??? You think that if someone is bigger than another they will win nomatter what?

Lets take UFC as an example, as I am sure you are one of the millions completely infatuated with it... Who won the first couple UFC's? Was it that fat sumo guy? No it was 160 lb Royce Gracie. Little Royce used his skill on the ground to win, not his strength.

There are many others, but because so many (or all) modern competitions are based on weight, it is difficult to see the disparity in skill and strength.

Besides, the point was more skill, less strength. Not more skill, "little, weak, slow". Nice catch on that...:rolleyes:

-Blake

[MasterKiller]

Lets take UFC as an example, as I am sure you are one of the millions completely infatuated with it... Who won the first couple UFC's? Was it that fat sumo guy? No it was 160 lb Royce Gracie. Little Royce used his skill on the ground to win, not his strength. And I wonder why Royce was recently caught juicing...? Do steroids make your triangle choke more technical?

[sanjuro_ronin]

And I wonder why Royce was recently caught juicing...? Do steroids make your triangle choke more technical?

LOL !!

Is it any wonder that the best fighter in the Gracie Clan was one of their best built - Rickson.

[bodhitree]

Hmm...Mr. Punch is it possible for you to state your opinion without being condescending? It seems not... *rolleyes*

I think the whole purpose of ginosifu asking this question is merely a theoretical one. That is to say, which is more important in the big picture: skill or strength? Of course, this is purely hypothetical because no sane person would train one exclusively (unless you are Mr. Punch, who only needs to train strength because he seems to have perfected technique already...) :rolleyes:

To this, I think it would be hard for anyone to call themselves Martial Artists and say that strength takes presedence (sp?) over skill. If so, why even train martial arts? Trully, would it not just be better to be a powerlifter or strongman? If we had to choose one: as a martial artist, it should be skill; as a normal person, it should be strength.

Surely we could agree that training martial arts is about training the science of combat and how to use an opponent's force against himself. Otherwise, it is always the bigger, stronger, and faster man that wins.

Also, if we do want to talk about "weight training" and any inhibitory effects on martial arts, we would need to define lifts and methods more thoroughly to avoid blanket statements like, "weight training is bad."

For example, I am of the opinion that bench press is worthless for fighting arts. Deadlifts, squats, snatches, and other "without support" total body lifts are quite useful and I bleieve they should be in every martial artists training regimen.

Now, I will await Mr. Punch's cunningly condescending and pompous retort...

-Blake

Mr. Punch responded as he did because genosifu made false statements about strength training. If the guy hadn't spouted claims based on common myths without doing any research, then he has to be ready to accept the inevitable flames. Strength training WILL NOT hinder progress in martial arts, at all (injuries that occur in any physical activity excluded). Strength training can only complement martial arts!


Can someone be skilled without strength, Yes. Would they be better if they were stronger, God yes.


As to your point about Royce in the early UFC's, he had submissions, which noone else knew at the time. Look at Royce vs. the stronger Hughes, Hughes who actually knows submissions. See the result.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Don't know where this BS about Strength training comes from, most TMA advocate it, look at Hung ga, look at the Okinwan Karate systems.
Stronger bodies make for better tools.

[MasterKiller]

Scenario: Your wife is about to be raped and you have to fight one guy to prevent it.

Would you rather fight Juan Manuel Márquez, the current WBC Super Featherweight (126-lbs) champion, or Kimbo Slice (250-lbs)?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Scenario: Your wife is about to be raped and you have to fight one guy to prevent it.

Would you rather fight Juan Manuel Márquez, the current WBC Super Featherweight (126-lbs) champion, or Kimbo Slice (250-lbs)?

Dude !!
Seriously, that's just wrong.
You might actually stand a better chance VS Kimbo, you wouldn't be able to even hit marquez.
:D

[Lucas]

I think everyone is on the same page that strength is needed as well as skill.

Even if someone wins due to strength alone, were they completely un skilled? Likely they had at least some skill to back their strength with.

Strength alone can go either way, a bumbling huge bafoon who can throw sloppy haymakers and bear hug, or a serious threat because the guy also happens to have a good understanding of mechanics.

Skill works the same way, though with less chances of coming out on top, just because your skilled.

Strength, without question, has a more inherant ability to see you through to the end, because its a passively used element in a fight. You just use how ever much you have, and you just have how much you have. Skill however, is still largely actively employed in a bout, and can leave you open for serious error if you slip up.

as far as i know its difficult to fail at being strong if you are strong.

[Lucas]

Scenario: Your wife is about to be raped and you have to fight one guy to prevent it.

Would you rather fight Juan Manuel Márquez, the current WBC Super Featherweight (126-lbs) champion, or Kimbo Slice (250-lbs)?

either, ill shoot him dead.

but i guess that would also depend on the person you are asking. some guys might rather fight kimbo

[sanjuro_ronin]

Luckly for all of us, the two are NOT mutual exclusive and we can have both and focus on both.

[SouthernTiger]

Luckly for all of us, the two are NOT mutual exclusive and we can have both and focus on both.

Thank you sanjuro_ronin for putting it so simply and eloquently! :D

So, yes, this is really just a theoretical discussion with no absolute "right" answer. The point being: train for both skill and strength. Neither should be neglected.

But, just to weigh in: I would double-tap the aggressor in the chest. But, if I didnt have my Colt .45 nearby I would rather fight the bigger guy (assuming he has less skill).

-Blake

[ginosifu]

Mr. Punch responded as he did because ginosifu made false statements about strength training. If the guy hadn't spouted claims based on common myths without doing any research, then he has to be ready to accept the inevitable flames. Strength training WILL NOT hinder progress in martial arts, at all (injuries that occur in any physical activity excluded). Strength training can only complement martial arts!

Sorry Bohditree, but my statement were of my opinion of students coming to me after weight lifting and could not do kung fu moves the correct way because they were so bulky. It is my opinion that Martial Artists do not need that kind of weight lifting. I did not say that Martial Artists do not need Strength Training.

Everyone has there opnion about how they should train and what is best. I just wanted to see where everybody sided here.

I am 44, I still strength train in my own way. I still train skill, Cardio, San Shou and MMA. If you love to weight lift ... more power to ya.

Ginosifu

[Mr Punch]

Hmm...Mr. Punch is it possible for you to state your opinion without being condescending? It seems not... *rolleyes*Nah. But thanks for taking an interest.

Read my first post. Factual. To the point. Nothing condescending. Ignored by Gino, who then went on with more anecdotal claims.


I think the whole purpose of ginosifu asking this question is merely a theoretical one. Sure it was hypothetical: as was his lecture about how weights were bad. If he'd read up on it maybe he wouldn't have needed to frame his personal ax to grind in a hypothetical way.


Of course, this is purely hypothetical because no sane person would train one exclusively (unless you are Mr. Punch, who only needs to train strength because he seems to have perfected technique already...) :rolleyes:How very unimaginative a straw man. Read what I wrote. I don't believe forms to be useful past beginner stage (where does that say I've perfected anything?). I don't believe solo training to be useful other than bagwork (I can't use my bag). I have no access to training partners because I often work 12 hours a day. Therefore the only things available for me are BW exercises and my DBs. That does not affect my defence of weight-training in general. Of course I would rather be training kung fu with people.


Also, if we do want to talk about "weight training" and any inhibitory effects on martial arts, we would need to define lifts and methods more thoroughly to avoid blanket statements like, "weight training is bad."Gino weighed in with some blanket stuff. I was specifying.


For example, I am of the opinion that bench press is worthless for fighting arts. Deadlifts, squats, snatches, and other "without support" total body lifts are quite useful and I bleieve they should be in every martial artists training regimen.Yep. While I don't think BP is totally useless (esp not for groundwork) there are better ways I spend my time.

Please note, I was advocating an integrated training programme, not one thing over another.


Now, I will await Mr. Punch's cunningly condescending and pompous retort...Hope I haven't disappointed.

[Mr Punch]

Strength:
Push Ups, Dynamic Tension sets, Weight Lifting, Strength Forms, Resistance Training etc etc.
...
Ginosifu :p


Strength Training:

I meant Martial Arts strength programs. Power Lifting or any weight lifting that requires downtime or resting intervals is not the type of strength training I was talking about.

Ginosifu :p


Strength training such as power lifting and heavy body building increase strength! However they also build in such a way that they do not move well for martia arts moves...
Ginosifu :p
I don't think you know what you're talking about. And believe it or not I don't mean that in a judgmental way.
You start by mentioning weights in your strength training list (so 'weights' are potentially good?). Then you say weights that require resting intervals (so these. ie. all good weights for strength programmes - not even talking about BW - are bad?). Then you say power lifting (is bad...).

Pick an argument, why don't you?

Finally you are saying that bulking up is bad, which is kind of what we've been saying except without the necessary qualification that if they stretch out it isn't necessary so.

[Mr Punch]

Thank you sanjuro_ronin for putting it so simply and eloquently! :DAnd I know I didn't contradict that anywhere. Or perhaps you could point it out.

I still don't really know how you can rag on me for being condescending to a man who call himself sifu on a forum and includes :p as his emoticon of choice.

[/shrugs]

[Yum Cha]

When doesn't the bigger, stronger, faster win?

Where are all the little, weak, slow world champions?

Chess...Spelling Bees....shall I keep going? :D:D:D

[Yum Cha]

As you can see, you might have gotten off on the wrong foot.

Firstly, there are many people on this board that are your equal at least, in many aspects of MA, you don't need to patronise or condescend to begin with, poor form.

Secondly, this topic has been well covered under several topics concedrning weight training in MA, weight training as it effects speed, strength training techniques, etc. Thus the new user advice to use the archives before posting.

Additionally I might add, that this is a forum for competitive fighters, and you can expect a bit of hot sauce with just about everything you order.

good luck

[Yum Cha]

If you look at the vids of Gino, you'll see he's a bigger boy than you MK. As a bigger boy myself, I can tell you from my own personal experience, weight training is not what works for me. It makes me better on the beach, but worse on the mats.

Power has never been my problem, speed, targeting, footwork and strategy are what I try to improve.

Even when I do alternating days, weight days vs forms, aerobic, isometric, isokenetic (thanks Ronin), I still feel sluggish from the weights.

The only weight training I like is 100-200 reps with 5-10 lbs done quickly.

However, I'm always open to suggestions from some of you PTs and coaches out there...

[SevenStar]

I am a fairly big guy too, and weights work wonders for me. I can't imagine training without that component.

[Yum Cha]

hi 7,

You're mainly MMA right? Don't you also train some traditional?

I'm mainly traditional, some grappling. I really appreciate the strength when grappling, but I feel sluggish after weights doing speed work.

Any advice?

[IronWeasel]

I don't think you know what you're talking about. And believe it or not I don't mean that in a judgmental way.


Lolz

Awesome! This should be a sig.

[SevenStar]

what lifts are you doing? how soon after you lift are you doing your speed training?

[Yum Cha]

what lifts are you doing? how soon after you lift are you doing your speed training?

My weitht routine is mostly arm and chest oriented, as I use other things for core and legs.

Standing:
1. curls,
2. reverse curls? (elbows next to ears, weights behind the head extended to above the head),
3. weights at side, lift together in front of chest while crunching, than lift together behind back while crunching,
4. and the old favorite, arms straight out to the side, held to the count of 10, dropped, raised, held to the count of 10...
5. Speed exercises with weights: punching drills, alternate curls.

Laying down on bench:
1. flys (arms out sideways, brought together using straight arms over body), and
2. arms extended straight back, together, than with straight arms, brought 180 degrees to above groin, than back.

I find if I use heavy weights, over 30lb dumbells and fewer reps, I feel sluggish for the next day doing forms or combinations. If I use 10-15lb dumbells, and get reps over 100, I still get a great burn, but don't feel the mollasses in my muscles for two days. With the lighter weights, I try to do it quickly, but things like flys can only be done so fast, or they just don't work...

Also, while on my back on the bench, I do leg lifts and spreads, curl ups, crunches.

Between forms I often do press ups as well, I really like using blocks.

And I do some other traditional exercises for core and flexability....yada yada yada...

My brother is a body builder for many years, he set me up with some of these exercises, and I can borrow his iron as needed.

For the record, I can around 300lbs 3 times (and suffer for 3 days), but I don't know how much I can deadlift, press, snatch, etc...

I like a bit of skipping rope too...

My measure of speed by how quickly and comfortably I can go through my forms routine, which takes about an hour, during which I keep my heartrate up between 65 and 90% of my recommended rate. Obviously, I sometimes get it up to the 100%+, but only for very short peaks.

Shhhhh!, my workout is a ancient secret Chinese traditional technique, just between you and me, right?

[pilgrimsunwukun]

It's funny when this topic comes up since there are all sorts of opinions and the reality is different for different people. I think one part of the answer lies with the Sifu. If he's huge, strong, fast the techniques he teaches will often reflect those abilities. But guess what , he'll get old. He won't be strong, fast, and he'll probably get bigger, love-handles wise.

I also know there are small guys who are extremely strong.

When one starts out training , the arrogance of youth-or maybe just the reality is that there's lots of jing, yang whatever- helps one rely of strength. Great, especially if you have a superior attitude.

Bruce Lee was supposed to be very strong but he didn't do verywell playing chisao with Yip Man, who was older, weaker, slower.

For long term progress working skill will take you ****her. Way back when I remember someone once saying people proposed a fight between Jim Brown and Cassius Clay. Those two guys were goofing around and suddenly Jim Brown felt wind blowing past his ear then a tap tap by his cheeks. Cassius Clay the fighter had fired of a combo and the football player, who probably was probably stronger(squat, bench, weight lifting wise) barely could react to cover his face. The fight never happened.

Even if that's a crock, superior skill and superior psoition seem to be a better advantage then superior strength.

[sanjuro_ronin]

My weitht routine is mostly arm and chest oriented, as I use other things for core and legs.

Standing:
1. curls,
2. reverse curls? (elbows next to ears, weights behind the head extended to above the head),
3. weights at side, lift together in front of chest while crunching, than lift together behind back while crunching,
4. and the old favorite, arms straight out to the side, held to the count of 10, dropped, raised, held to the count of 10...
5. Speed exercises with weights: punching drills, alternate curls.

Laying down on bench:
1. flys (arms out sideways, brought together using straight arms over body), and
2. arms extended straight back, together, than with straight arms, brought 180 degrees to above groin, than back.

I find if I use heavy weights, over 30lb dumbells and fewer reps, I feel sluggish for the next day doing forms or combinations. If I use 10-15lb dumbells, and get reps over 100, I still get a great burn, but don't feel the mollasses in my muscles for two days. With the lighter weights, I try to do it quickly, but things like flys can only be done so fast, or they just don't work...

Also, while on my back on the bench, I do leg lifts and spreads, curl ups, crunches.

Between forms I often do press ups as well, I really like using blocks.

And I do some other traditional exercises for core and flexability....yada yada yada...

My brother is a body builder for many years, he set me up with some of these exercises, and I can borrow his iron as needed.

For the record, I can around 300lbs 3 times (and suffer for 3 days), but I don't know how much I can deadlift, press, snatch, etc...

I like a bit of skipping rope too...

My measure of speed by how quickly and comfortably I can go through my forms routine, which takes about an hour, during which I keep my heartrate up between 65 and 90% of my recommended rate. Obviously, I sometimes get it up to the 100%+, but only for very short peaks.

Shhhhh!, my workout is a ancient secret Chinese traditional technique, just between you and me, right?

I have never been a fan of doing MA AND Strength Training the same day, something always "suffers", but some guys to fine with it.
I woudl suggest you move away from "body building" and isolation like moves and focus on Strength exercises and compound moves.
I have always been a advocate of "real life" exercises, exercises that work the muscles we need everyday, not just for MA -
Deadlifts
Squats
Dips
Overhead presses.
And even curls, just because we curl almost everything.

[bodhitree]

My weitht routine is mostly arm and chest oriented, as I use other things for core and legs.

Standing:
1. curls,
2. reverse curls? (elbows next to ears, weights behind the head extended to above the head),
3. weights at side, lift together in front of chest while crunching, than lift together behind back while crunching,
4. and the old favorite, arms straight out to the side, held to the count of 10, dropped, raised, held to the count of 10...
5. Speed exercises with weights: punching drills, alternate curls.

Laying down on bench:
1. flys (arms out sideways, brought together using straight arms over body), and
2. arms extended straight back, together, than with straight arms, brought 180 degrees to above groin, than back.

I find if I use heavy weights, over 30lb dumbells and fewer reps, I feel sluggish for the next day doing forms or combinations. If I use 10-15lb dumbells, and get reps over 100, I still get a great burn, but don't feel the mollasses in my muscles for two days. With the lighter weights, I try to do it quickly, but things like flys can only be done so fast, or they just don't work...

Also, while on my back on the bench, I do leg lifts and spreads, curl ups, crunches.

Between forms I often do press ups as well, I really like using blocks.

And I do some other traditional exercises for core and flexability....yada yada yada...

My brother is a body builder for many years, he set me up with some of these exercises, and I can borrow his iron as needed.

For the record, I can around 300lbs 3 times (and suffer for 3 days), but I don't know how much I can deadlift, press, snatch, etc...

I like a bit of skipping rope too...

My measure of speed by how quickly and comfortably I can go through my forms routine, which takes about an hour, during which I keep my heartrate up between 65 and 90% of my recommended rate. Obviously, I sometimes get it up to the 100%+, but only for very short peaks.

Shhhhh!, my workout is a ancient secret Chinese traditional technique, just between you and me, right?


Not to offend, but

This doesn't even remotely resemble a strength training program. I would suggest you go to the training forum and read the "strength training links" sticky thread, and read through. Some of the older links are dead, but there are many good ones. Lifting weights is not necessarily equal to strength training. Strength training comes about with the right intensity (amount of weight/ force generated) and COMPOUND body movements. Basically, lifts that 'target' a muscle are not very good for strength. Have you ever heard of the big three? The deadlift, the squat, and the bench? Any serious strength program should incorporate those lifts. There are many other lifts that are good for building strength, the over head press, lunges, olympic lifts, etc..


Why don't people even know what strength training is, and I don't just mean you yum cha

[bodhitree]

oh, if you're doing strength/conditioning and skill training in the same day, the skill training should probably come first. That would at least be ideal.

[Black Jack II]

strength hands down.

[SevenStar]

For long term progress working skill will take you ****her. Way back when I remember someone once saying people proposed a fight between Jim Brown and Cassius Clay. Those two guys were goofing around and suddenly Jim Brown felt wind blowing past his ear then a tap tap by his cheeks. Cassius Clay the fighter had fired of a combo and the football player, who probably was probably stronger(squat, bench, weight lifting wise) barely could react to cover his face. The fight never happened.

Even if that's a crock, superior skill and superior psoition seem to be a better advantage then superior strength.


not really. in the case you mentioned, brown had no fighting skill. ali was a pro fighter. BIG bifference. Now, take a weaker pro fighter against a stronger amateur fighter and you would have had a different result. As skill levels become more equal, strength becomes more important.

Heck, anyone who wants to see strength and it's advantages can watch a few of bob sapp's fights, who at 6'5 and a pretty solid 350 pummeled his way to an 8-2-1 record...

[SevenStar]

My weitht routine is mostly arm and chest oriented, as I use other things for core and legs.

Standing:
1. curls,
2. reverse curls? (elbows next to ears, weights behind the head extended to above the head),
3. weights at side, lift together in front of chest while crunching, than lift together behind back while crunching,
4. and the old favorite, arms straight out to the side, held to the count of 10, dropped, raised, held to the count of 10...
5. Speed exercises with weights: punching drills, alternate curls.

Laying down on bench:
1. flys (arms out sideways, brought together using straight arms over body), and
2. arms extended straight back, together, than with straight arms, brought 180 degrees to above groin, than back.

I find if I use heavy weights, over 30lb dumbells and fewer reps, I feel sluggish for the next day doing forms or combinations. If I use 10-15lb dumbells, and get reps over 100, I still get a great burn, but don't feel the mollasses in my muscles for two days. With the lighter weights, I try to do it quickly, but things like flys can only be done so fast, or they just don't work...

Also, while on my back on the bench, I do leg lifts and spreads, curl ups, crunches.

Between forms I often do press ups as well, I really like using blocks.

And I do some other traditional exercises for core and flexability....yada yada yada...

My brother is a body builder for many years, he set me up with some of these exercises, and I can borrow his iron as needed.

For the record, I can around 300lbs 3 times (and suffer for 3 days), but I don't know how much I can deadlift, press, snatch, etc...

I like a bit of skipping rope too...

My measure of speed by how quickly and comfortably I can go through my forms routine, which takes about an hour, during which I keep my heartrate up between 65 and 90% of my recommended rate. Obviously, I sometimes get it up to the 100%+, but only for very short peaks.

Shhhhh!, my workout is a ancient secret Chinese traditional technique, just between you and me, right?

sanjuro hit it - that's more of a bodybuilding style of weight training. That is exactly what we tell people not to do (even though I am currently doing it myself) but I also ALWAYS have the big three in any program that I do (bench, squats and deads). The key to what people call "functional strength" is compound movement. The body works as one unit when playing sports, fighting, etc. so, training the muscles in isolation isn't really conducive to training for said activities. O-lifts, powerlifting, strong man training, etc. are more along the lines of what a martial artist would benefit most from, not a bodybuilding regimen.

[golden arhat]

Dude !!
Seriously, that's just wrong.
You might actually stand a better chance VS Kimbo, you wouldn't be able to even hit marquez.
:D

i'd fight either



u didnt say i had to win

simply to fight

[SouthernTiger]

sanjuro hit it - that's more of a bodybuilding style of weight training. That is exactly what we tell people not to do (even though I am currently doing it myself) but I also ALWAYS have the big three in any program that I do (bench, squats and deads). The key to what people call "functional strength" is compound movement. The body works as one unit when playing sports, fighting, etc. so, training the muscles in isolation isn't really conducive to training for said activities. O-lifts, powerlifting, strong man training, etc. are more along the lines of what a martial artist would benefit most from, not a bodybuilding regimen.

This is exactly the kind of miscommunication that can happen when people say that "strength" is soo important. One person lifts as a "bodybuilder" while another as a "strongman". Also, there are different kinds of strength. Should we include training for power, speed, and muscular endurance also? This is why weight training can be a tricky topic. I own a gym and I have to deal with this on a daily basis. Many people train MMA and come to the gym to train but waste their time. Even their "coaches" are in the dark on how to properly use strength training. It is soo frustrating...:mad:

But you are right that if one trains their strength properly, the carryover into combat is paramount. Also, I believe the bench press to be of minimal value to one training in the combat arts. Chest training is important but bench press has little carryover.

However, I still contend that skill training is more significant than strength training.

-Blake

[bodhitree]

but bench press has little carryover.

to steel a phrase from Mr. Punch, you sir have an ax to grind.

the bench press carries over to: after having blocked a shot pushing the person away, gaining posture by pushing into someones hips while in guard, transitioning from mount to armbar, breaking a clinch, after the kazushi (pulling off balance) for a judo throw you end up keeping the pull until it becomes a push,



not to mention working the chest muscles and triceps?


Should we include training for power, speed, and muscular endurance also?

power yes, muscular endurance no, it doesn't have anything to do with strength

power= force x excellertion, if I remember correctly

strength= amount of force exerted? I don't remember, but lifting a small amount of weight a lot of times has NOTHING to do with strength.

[Yum Cha]

Thanks guys, I'm pressed for time today in the office, but I really want to come back to this. See you tomorrow.

[pilgrimsunwukun]

Opinions are like life everyone has one. The Jimmie B and Cassius story, to me points to skill trumps strength. Same with the chi sao stories about Bruce lee not being able to touch Yip Man, the young, strong guy can't get a lick in on the old man. Same with the stories of the akido guy- throwing folks all over dispite being very weak.

What's really cool is when you have the strength to do what you want but are able to do techniques with minimal strength. In silat, you know you have it right when it works and it didn't take strength. In fact the more muscle you use , the more likely you don't have base, angle, leverage, control, sensitivity, whatever. You don't have,"it."

At this point , I don't have ,"it." Also when it comes to fighting, put a knife in someone's hand and the strength factor goes out the window.

Skill and position, that's the way to go.

[Yum Cha]

Ok, so I learned something today. My brother, the bodybuilder, geve me bodybuilding exercises that isolated muscle groups that I use, whereas some of you guys are recommending "strength" exercises, which I can research at my leisure.

Seven, you commented you are doing the same, you and I have similar build. My issue is size reduction, not increase. I'm getting older, I want to lose 30-40lbs without losing everything else.

Still, if I may ask for some more advice, what about repititions? Light weights, moving throught the same motion as a punch or hammer fist with weights in high reps?

BTW, as I said, I do a lot of exercise that isn't weight related, but uses full body movement and range. For example doing sword forms using galvanised steel bars. Doing staff forms using a weight lifting bar, and of course the calesthentics and regular training.

I've always thought of the light weights with high reps as common to the kettle bells - yes, no?

Keep in mind, my ultimate skill is Pak Mei Faat Ging, that explosive whipping power, slightly different from a lot of skills.

Thanks all for the good oil.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Ok, so I learned something today. My brother, the bodybuilder, geve me bodybuilding exercises that isolated muscle groups that I use, whereas some of you guys are recommending "strength" exercises, which I can research at my leisure.

Seven, you commented you are doing the same, you and I have similar build. My issue is size reduction, not increase. I'm getting older, I want to lose 30-40lbs without losing everything else.

Still, if I may ask for some more advice, what about repititions? Light weights, moving throught the same motion as a punch or hammer fist with weights in high reps?

BTW, as I said, I do a lot of exercise that isn't weight related, but uses full body movement and range. For example doing sword forms using galvanised steel bars. Doing staff forms using a weight lifting bar, and of course the calesthentics and regular training.

I've always thought of the light weights with high reps as common to the kettle bells - yes, no?

Keep in mind, my ultimate skill is Pak Mei Faat Ging, that explosive whipping power, slightly different from a lot of skills.

Thanks all for the good oil.

Bulking up with Strength training only happens when you train for Hypertrophy AND eat like a pig ;)
Powerlifiters and Olympic litfters, for example, compete in weight divisions and as such, can and do get strong while maintaining or evne losing weight.

Train for strength means training in the low rep, low set scheme of things like the 5x5 for example ( 5 sets of 5 reps with 85% -90% of your max).

Indeed, the best way to lose weight and get stronger is the low rep high weight routines with compound moves like squats, DL, dips, overheads and so forth.

[bodhitree]

Bulking up with Strength training only happens when you train for Hypertrophy AND eat like a pig ;)
Powerlifiters and Olympic litfters, for example, compete in weight divisions and as such, can and do get strong while maintaining or evne losing weight.

Train for strength means training in the low rep, low set scheme of things like the 5x5 for example ( 5 sets of 5 reps with 85% -90% of your max).

Indeed, the best way to lose weight and get stronger is the low rep high weight routines with compound moves like squats, DL, dips, overheads and so forth.

and, yeah I know it's a lot, probably too much in this busy time, but to also combine the strength training with some HIIT (high intensity interval training) will also help in the weight loss process. that being said I usually only have time to strength train, and rarely get to do HIIT.

I would also highly encourage you to go to the training and health page and read the strength training links sticky thread. There are many good links (and some dead ones) where you will find all the info you need.

[sanjuro_ronin]

and, yeah I know it's a lot, probably too much in this busy time, but to also combine the strength training with some HIIT (high intensity interval training) will also help in the weight loss process. that being said I usually only have time to strength train, and rarely get to do HIIT.

I would also highly encourage you to go to the training and health page and read the strength training links sticky thread. There are many good links (and some dead ones) where you will find all the info you need.

You can throw HIIT in with your bag work, it is one awesome workout dude.

[SevenStar]

Opinions are like life everyone has one. The Jimmie B and Cassius story, to me points to skill trumps strength. Same with the chi sao stories about Bruce lee not being able to touch Yip Man, the young, strong guy can't get a lick in on the old man. Same with the stories of the akido guy- throwing folks all over dispite being very weak.

What's really cool is when you have the strength to do what you want but are able to do techniques with minimal strength. In silat, you know you have it right when it works and it didn't take strength. In fact the more muscle you use , the more likely you don't have base, angle, leverage, control, sensitivity, whatever. You don't have,"it."

At this point , I don't have ,"it." Also when it comes to fighting, put a knife in someone's hand and the strength factor goes out the window.

Skill and position, that's the way to go.


when resistance is involved, strength is used. heck, go to youtube and search for push hands contests - some of them look like judo tournaments. Watch max chen. watch cung le. All of these guys are visibly using strength. Why? because their opponent's skill level is close to their own. In your example, the two had entirely different skill levels, which is my point - the closer the skill level, the more attributes matter.

[SevenStar]

Ok, so I learned something today. My brother, the bodybuilder, geve me bodybuilding exercises that isolated muscle groups that I use, whereas some of you guys are recommending "strength" exercises, which I can research at my leisure.

Seven, you commented you are doing the same, you and I have similar build. My issue is size reduction, not increase. I'm getting older, I want to lose 30-40lbs without losing everything else.

the thing about the body is that it can't be in both an anabolic state and an catabolic state at the same time - you are either growing or shrinking. The other component to that is fuel - if you aren't eating enough, you won't get big. you can keep doing the lifts you are doing, or lifts like we have advocated, in addition to cardio and good diet. As long as you burn more than you consume, you will lose. In my blog, I have been talking about a weight loss competition I entered for fun. I have lost 22lbs in the past 12 weeks.


Still, if I may ask for some more advice, what about repititions? Light weights, moving throught the same motion as a punch or hammer fist with weights in high reps?

you always want to keep the weight light with punching exercises.

[SevenStar]

But you are right that if one trains their strength properly, the carryover into combat is paramount. Also, I believe the bench press to be of minimal value to one training in the combat arts. Chest training is important but bench press has little carryover.



consider grappling, or thai fighters in a clinch. We are locked up. I push you away to make space so I can throw a leg kick - bench press.

you have me in side mount and I press up with my arms to make space so I can shrimp out - bench press.

I do agree that if you are striking it is of little importance, but I think it has plenty of value in grappling.

[SevenStar]

power yes, muscular endurance no, it doesn't have anything to do with strength

power= force x excellertion, if I remember correctly

strength= amount of force exerted? I don't remember, but lifting a small amount of weight a lot of times has NOTHING to do with strength.


'strength' is becoming a buzzword these days. you will hear terms like:

speed strength
limit strength
starting strength
etc.

[bodhitree]

'strength' is becoming a buzzword these days. you will hear terms like:

speed strength
limit strength
starting strength
etc.


I think what most people would term 'strength training' are training a certain type of muscle fibers, type II.a and II.b, both referred to as 'fast twitch muscles'. These muscles are recruited for high intensity/short duration activities. To me, anything that trains these muslces would be considered 'strength training'. If an activity/exercise goes beyond 10 seconds it would at that point be some other kind of training. While grappling, one powerful burst would be an exapmle of strength. To be able to sustain energy throughout a grappling match would be conditioning. The two can be trained together, but are not the same.

okay, enough inarticulate ramblings, sorry

[Yum Cha]

Thanks for the advice on weights guys, I'm taking it on board. As I said when I started my part of the thread, I'm not a keen weights fan, and the workout I mentioned earlier is not my regular thing, its a workout I do periodically to improve overall fitness, for example, after an injury layoff, or to get ready for Beach Season....

One of the things I like most about Pak Mei is the fast and furious execution of the foms. Moreso than any other art I've seen. Its like doing windsprints. I attribute most my fitness and speed to that exercise, as opposed to weight training.

I have added some core muscle workouts as well, built myself from Pilates, Yoga and Hei Gung exercises and principles, which is my warm up and down.

One thing I have to give to grappling, it sure builds the strength and core muscle stability.

So, back to the thread, how do you train, skill or strength??

And the sub-plot: weight training or not?

It seems to me, the conclusions are that compound movement is better than isolated movement when training muscles.

Most of us know about fast twich muscle vs power muscle.

HIgh Intensity ciruit training gets a big thumbs up.

It seems to me, that done properly, the much maligned Form Training, with all its compound movement, if done with high intensity 'sprinting" or anarobic nature, certainly has a place in the mix. And perhaps with extra weights, like rings or ankle/wrist weights, appears to be an option?

Thus, Skill or Strength are not necessarily exclusive, but can quite comfortably co-exist as part of a trainig strategy, if you don't go too far one direction or the other?

And perhaps the sum is greater than the whole of the parts?

[Mas Judt]

This is a stupid question. Skill merely reflects refined strength. I cannot train my skill without getting stronger.


Skill is an equalizer against superior strength (But no - you still need to be strong as you can be)

Raw strength can compensate for failed technique. Which is why you train *skill* to beat bigger, stronger people. But THAT DOES MEAN YOU DO NOT NEED TO BE AS STRONG AS YOU CAN BE. Just refine that strength, and develop some skillful attributes.

[Mas Judt]

A good example is Seven Star who is as strong as a god**** bear, but has excellent attributes and trains hard. He will have the more potential than the 90lb. weakling who thinks his "skill" training will protect him. This is a weird fallacy of TMA. No good TMA I have ever seen fails to make strength development and refinement a component of skill.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

This is a stupid question. Skill merely reflects refined strength. I cannot train my skill without getting stronger.

Reply]
That is because throwing someone head first into the concrete is a good full body strength building exercise.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

power yes, muscular endurance no, it doesn't have anything to do with strength

Reply]
The more muscular endurance you have, the less your cardio is taxed.

Remember, he who gasses first...loses.

[Scott Meneely]

power yes, muscular endurance no, it doesn't have anything to do with strength

Reply]
The more muscular endurance you have, the less your cardio is taxed.

Remember, he who gasses first...loses.

Most street fights will not last very long, and for self defense you should just be trying to free yourself to get away. His original question was about self defense. There are also other ways to increase cardio, not that muscular endurance exercises don't help, but I'd say training the energy systems with HIIT or Tabata intervals probably help more with the wind factor....

[Seppukku]

power yes, muscular endurance no, it doesn't have anything to do with strength

Reply]
The more muscular endurance you have, the less your cardio is taxed.

Remember, he who gasses first...loses.

I thought it was "Whoever smell-t it dealt it?"

[Scott Meneely]

The more muscular endurance you have, the less your cardio is taxed

Actually muscular endurance has little to do with 'cardio'. Muscular endurance helps muscles to be able to perform many tension movements without cramping up from lactic acid buildup, but won't work your lungs. Muscular endurance is not equal to Cardio Vascular Endurance, especially not anaerobic endurance, which is what you would need for fighting. Your statement is false.

[SevenStar]

The more muscular endurance you have, the less your cardio is taxed.


False......

[SevenStar]

skill vs strength...

this weekend, one of our bouncers who is like 5-2 in mma, but he is a little guy - like 5'7 and 135 got into a scuffle with a guy who outweighed him by over one hundred pounds. he got beat. That is reality. size and strength do matter.

[Lucas]

Thats it! No more trying to fight huge guys, this thread settles it for me.

Big buff guys get shot right away.

[MightyB]

One was an old bull, one was a young bull. The young bull looks down the hill and sees a bunch of heffers. He says to the old bull, "hey, let's run down this hill and screw one of those cows". The old bull looks at the young bull squarely in the eyes and says, "let's walk down this hill and screw 'em all".

anyway- all things being equal- the stronger one will win. But, if you have more skill, you can beat a stronger guy. Think Gracie challenge, Royce in the old UFC, Helio forever ago. These aren't big guys. They had a skill set that set them apart, plus they were patient, and they beat guys who were way bigger and stronger than them.

[sanjuro_ronin]

skill vs strength...

this weekend, one of our bouncers who is like 5-2 in mma, but he is a little guy - like 5'7 and 135 got into a scuffle with a guy who outweighed him by over one hundred pounds. he got beat. That is reality. size and strength do matter.

Its a reality.
When I started bouncing I was the same height (5'6) and weighted 145lbs soaking wet !
But the smallest guy I had been training with for the last few years was 5-9, 195 and the biggest was 6-5 310.
I didn't know what "weight divisions" were (outside of boxing) and as such, size was a factor I had been exposed to, all the time, even in competition ( kyokushin was open weight at the time).
And even then size mattered ( though not as much).
I wonder if people who think that skill overcomes size and say it with such "absolutes" have ever had some ****ed off coke head that outweights them by OVER 100LBS trying to remove their face VIA their rectum ?!?!?

[MightyB]

Wow,

All I can say is that the goal of the martial arts is for a littler guy to be able to defend himself from a bigger guy. If that's not possible for you with your current training- then you should seriously address whether or not you should find a real martial art. You'd think MMA training would do that... but crappy MMA training is still crappy training.

The B.

Seven- teach your bouncer friend traditional Jiu Jitsu and tell him to put on 20lbs.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Wow,

All I can say is that the goal of the martial arts is for a littler guy to be able to defend himself from a bigger guy. If that's not possible for you with your current training- then you should seriously address whether or not you should find a real martial art. You'd think MMA training would do that... but crappy MMA training is still crappy training.

The B.

Seven- teach your bouncer friend traditional Jiu Jitsu and tell him to put on 20lbs.

Who was this directed to?

[MightyB]

anybody who's reading Sanjuro

The goal of martial arts is for a small guy to be able to defend himself against a bigger guy. If your current training isn't doing that- then explore other options.

One thing I can say though is that old-school martial arts probably aren't adequate anymore because they were meant to maim and kill. And you just can't justify that really in a bar room scuffle. You can't crush a throat, or bust a kneecap- you just can't- it's immoral. So, is the problem that martial arts need to undergo a change? I don't know.

I don't do Jiu Jitsu (Old School Judo and Kung Fu), but the one BJJ book I own starts with the martial arts goal, and I can't argue that- it's true. Honestly- I'd say my Judo training is more relevant than my kung fu training- more non-lethal options than kung fu, and you can't beat the practicality of the randori based training.

[Drake]

It's also similar to combat training. It's no guarantee that you'll win a fight by being well trained. It will, however, increase your likelihood of winning/redirecting the conflict.

[sanjuro_ronin]

anybody who's reading Sanjuro

The goal of martial arts is for a small guy to be able to defend himself against a bigger guy. If your current training isn't doing that- then explore other options.

One thing I can say though is that old-school martial arts probably aren't adequate anymore because they were meant to maim and kill. And you just can't justify that really in a bar room scuffle. You can't crush a throat, or bust a kneecap- you just can't- it's immoral. So, is the problem that martial arts need to undergo a change? I don't know.

I don't do Jiu Jitsu (Old School Judo and Kung Fu), but the one BJJ book I own starts with the martial arts goal, and I can't argue that- it's true. Honestly- I'd say my Judo training is more relevant than my kung fu training- more non-lethal options than kung fu, and you can't beat the practicality of the randori based training.

MA were created in different verisons, civilian and military, the civilian probably being first, the whole Rock-in-hand-jutsu thing ;)
I don't think that any were created so that the "little guy can beat the big", though they certainly give the advantage to the smaller better trained fighter.
Most MA, if not all, were developed so that they wouldn't rely SOLELY on physical strength and size, but they will always be a factor, just like speed is a factor, experience, intent, and so on.

Fact is the only way for size to be less of an issue is to train with big that are bigger, it just that simple really, regardless of what you train ( to a certain extent), its how you train that will allow you to overcome a bigger opponent, but I can tell you this, unless there is a very substancial skill difference, superiour size and strength will be the deciding factor, regardless of what system you know.

[MightyB]

Roy Harris has a training DVD that's really intrigued me. It's called "Brazilian Jiu Jitsu Over 40" http://www.royharris.biz/catalog/i19.html

What intrigues me is the concept of patience. Learning a good base- then letting the other guy do all the work. Let's say that you're in a fight in a bar. You only want to achieve a state of neutrality- you don't want to knock him out or whatever. What's it matter if you take him to the ground and go put yourself in a neutral position like letting him put you in the guard? You don't try to pass, or submit him, or whatever- you just keep a good base and don't let him sweep you (easy if he's not trained). You can stay there long enough for it to be broken up. That's reality nowadays- if you punched him, broke one of his limbs, choked him out- whatever- first of all- the attempt to do any of those exposes you to counter attacks that you may lose, second- if you win- the legal war takes over and that's not a good place to be.

I can already hear your keyboards- "what if he wants to kill you or hurt a family member or there's multiple opponents?" Arm yourself- use lethal force (supposably you're all trained to do that).

[sanjuro_ronin]

Roy Harris has a training DVD that's really intrigued me. It's called "Brazilian Jiu Jitsu Over 40" http://www.royharris.biz/catalog/i19.html

What intrigues me is the concept of patience. Learning a good base- then letting the other guy do all the work. Let's say that you're in a fight in a bar. You only want to achieve a state of neutrality- you don't want to knock him out or whatever. What's it matter if you take him to the ground and go put yourself in a neutral position like letting him put you in the guard? You don't try to pass, or submit him, or whatever- you just keep a good base and don't let him sweep you (easy if he's not trained). You can stay there long enough for it to be broken up. That's reality nowadays- if you punched him, broke one of his limbs, choked him out- whatever- first of all- the attempt to do any of those exposes you to counter attacks that you may lose, second- if you win- the legal war takes over and that's not a good place to be.

I can already hear your keyboards- "what if he wants to kill you or hurt a family member or there's multiple opponents?" Arm yourself- use lethal force (supposably you're all trained to do that).

I wouldn't advice playing the "wait n see" game in a violent confrontation outside the ring.

[MightyB]

But, for the most part- people equate violent confrontations with bars, parties, schoolyards- at least what I find with the majority of martial artists on these boards and in the gyms. It's not defend your life stuff- it's basic bar room brawling crap.

Now are these people/"martial artists" looking for trouble? probably. Are they going to use a passive defense? No. Do they deserve to get their butts kicked? yes.

In a true self defense situation- one where the guy wants to kill you- use lethal force- supposably that's what people say they are training... Does it matter how hopped up on coke a guy is if you grab a hold and crush his larynix? Will slamming him with a baseball bat (or other improvised weapon) put him down? Will he be incapacitated by CS gas or a bullet (if you have the necessary permits and training). The question is are you training to be able to do this type of thing if you have to? I'd say "no" for most people. Reality based training is as controversial and rare as MMA training.

[sanjuro_ronin]

But, for the most part- people equate violent confrontations with bars, parties, schoolyards- at least what I find with the majority of martial artists on these boards and in the gyms. It's not defend your life stuff- it's basic bar room brawling crap.


Correct and in that regard, if one can only train one thing, it would, probably, be skill.
That said, we can train for the most likely scenario and be prepared for it, or we can train for the "worse-case" scenario and be prepared for it AND the mostl likely one too.

[SevenStar]

anybody who's reading Sanjuro

The goal of martial arts is for a small guy to be able to defend himself against a bigger guy. If your current training isn't doing that- then explore other options.

heck, the goal of my gun is to kill someone with it, but nothing is absolute... there is no guarantee that the little guy will beat the bigger guy. the only thing MA training does is give you more of a chance.

[SevenStar]

In a true self defense situation- one where the guy wants to kill you- use lethal force- supposably that's what people say they are training... Does it matter how hopped up on coke a guy is if you grab a hold and crush his larynix? Will slamming him with a baseball bat (or other improvised weapon) put him down? Will he be incapacitated by CS gas or a bullet (if you have the necessary permits and training). The question is are you training to be able to do this type of thing if you have to? I'd say "no" for most people. Reality based training is as controversial and rare as MMA training.

This, I agree with. something that has been said here before: "I may not be able to defend myself, but I sure as hell can fight..."

for life or death self defense, get permits and training. carry a gun, knife and oc spray. In this day and age, MA training alone really isn't the ticket for that.

[Yum Cha]

All things being equal Conan beats Peter Pan.

So, you make things un-equal, either by getting really scared, really mad or really angry, moreso than the other guy.

Or, you practice and get skills.

Real fights are not MMA contests. Security work is another special condition. Not counting school yard honour fights and multiple opponent beatdowns, they are quick, hit and run affairs.

I totally agree, MA training is for evening the odds against meaner, bigger or multiple opponents. It will not turn Peter Pan into Conan, regardless.

And of course, for all the physical training, sporting entertainment and comeraderie.