Zhang Zhuang

[Northwind]

王德英(Wang De Ying) was talking about LKJ.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAiwnNSh49c

Ah okay. Then to that point, I agree. Although we have a Qigong similar to some of the methods they do, we don't go crazy with attributing wuxia effects to real realization.

[Scott R. Brown]

I had a discussion with the Beijing PE University Judo and wrestling coach 王德英(Wang De Ying) who trained Chinese Olympic Judo guys and wrestlers. I asked him about his opinion on Qi. His response was, "If Qi works on the mat. what am I doing here?"

Ziiinnnngggggggg!!!


王德英(Wang De Ying) was talking about LKJ (I just quoted ever single words that he had said). That kind of demo was very popular back in 1984. back then when people talke about Qi, they always talke about LKJ.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAiwnNSh49c

OMG!!!!!!!:eek:


Ah okay. Then to that point, I agree. Although we have a Qigong similar to some of the methods they do, we don't go crazy with attributing wuxia effects to real realization.

Yeah! I think we are addressing the martial applications here, not the spiritual ones!;)

[rett]

Once "standing" provides the same uncontroversial objective evidence that it improves performance, rather than anecdotal evidence, it WILL be used by athletes and soldiers

A lot of athletes are adopting methods along the lines of visualization/relaxation/mindfulness at the advice of their coaches as part of a fully balanced training regimen. This tangents some important functions of standing meditation.

Another thing, pro athletes' way of training (and top soldiers) is so focussed on high performance in the short-to-medium term that it neglects long-term health and sustainability. Top athletes train themselves to pieces. There are some amazing exceptions of course, but not everyone is a genetic wonder.

So optimizing competitive performance is not necessarily the best goal and highest standard. Sustainable life-long training can conflict with getting the highest possible results when you are 28-35 yrs old. Kung Fu if any art has a tradition of a whole-life health perspective.

[YouKnowWho]

meditation ... whole-life health perspective.

It could be very confusion when we mix "combat" with "meditation" and "health" in the same thread.

A: Why did you put your arms behind your back when you kicked?
B: It was good for health.

A: Why did you punch to the east while your eyes were looking toward the north.
B: It was good for meditation.

[rett]

It could be very confusion when we mix "combat" with "meditation" and "health" in the same thread.

A: Why did you put your arms behind your back when you kick?
B: It's good for health.

A: Why did you punch to the east while your eyes are looking toward the north.
B: It's for meditation.

LOL I agree. But if you consider open-handed fighting as athletic performance, I just wanted to point out that many high-level competitive athletes do included things that can be considered meditative in their training regimen nowadays. That doesn't mean a ski-jumper will go into the lotus position in the air while jumping (unless he thinks it improves his aerodynamics).

[Scott R. Brown]

I am specifically referring to "standing" meditation, not meditation in general. My point is, there is nothing inherently "better" or significant about "standing" than anything else and there are better ways to develop body awareness, like moving!

[rett]

Maybe we don't disagree all that much. I like standing, but don't have patience for more than 5 or 10 minutes usually. Early in the morning is another thing.

[SimonM]

It could be very confusion when we mix "combat" with "meditation" and "health" in the same thread.


And that's exactly it.

There is a risk to holistic world views, when taken to extremes, as there is to any world view when taken to an extreme.

That risk is conflation of unrelated things.

Standing stake may be a very good form of meditation.

Taijiquan is very good for your health.

Neither will help you fight.

Being holistic in focus many people think that a meditative practice or a health practice, taught by a martial arts instructor, MUST make one better at fighting.

This is a classic example of conflation of unrelated things.

As I've said throughout I don't have beef with people who want to meditate while standing or who want to practice health enhancing activities such as Taiji. Hell, I've done both myself.

But I didn't expect those activities to make me a better fighter. ;)

[Taixuquan99]

I don't often practice, but at points have, serious post training(or a version of it). My routine when I did was forty minutes.

That said, if someone is not aware of how kua are important to mobility in most kung fu, said training might teach them that, assuming they are using a rational version of the stance, not stressing height as much as alignment.

Beyond that, I don't even consider it important for meditation.

Without understanding kua, I firmly believe it is hopeless to try to use kung fu footwork.

[Northwind]

Taijiquan is very good for your health.
Neither will help you fight.

Only if your world view is such that you think Taijiquan is slow stuff old people do...

[Northwind]

That said, if someone is not aware of how kua are important to mobility in most kung fu, said training might teach them that, assuming they are using a rational version of the stance, not stressing height as much as alignment.

Beyond that, I don't even consider it important for meditation.

Without understanding kua, I firmly believe it is hopeless to try to use kung fu footwork.

Mobile leg fu and kua is a different thing than most standard standing post. If you're referring to a specific standing stake exercise that shows a sameness, please explain.

I agree that knowing/feeling/using kua is huge for leg fu, as that is somewhat class 101 level...And you can add that visualization/feeling of kua to your standing but....Maybe I am just not getting you.

Meditation is mainly mind, breath and a bit of body; you say you do not consider it important for that. What do you consider good meditation and what benefits do you see coming from standing stake, then? (Just playing devil's advocate here to get your views)

[SimonM]

Only if your world view is such that you think Taijiquan is slow stuff old people do...

My "world view" is that, having been shown Taijiquan on two continents the "slow stuff old people do" represents 99% of Taiji, the 1% that was different was Taiji as interpreted by a pretty hardcore SJ / Mongolian Wrestling / JJJ exponent.

[Taixuquan99]

Mobile leg fu and kua is a different thing than most standard standing post. If you're referring to a specific standing stake exercise that shows a sameness, please explain.

I agree that knowing/feeling/using kua is huge for leg fu, as that is somewhat class 101 level...And you can add that visualization/feeling of kua to your standing but....Maybe I am just not getting you.

Meditation is mainly mind, breath and a bit of body; you say you do not consider it important for that. What do you consider good meditation and what benefits do you see coming from standing stake, then? (Just playing devil's advocate here to get your views)

As for kua, I think that that particular stability in standing post, if the stance is a useful one, practically requires a strong awareness of the kua, where, in standing still, the kua rests on a knife's edge(being dramatic here), one fraction of a degree of closing on one kua will automatically mean one fraction of a degree of opening on the other, or a change in facing, so that to simply stand, perhaps the most unnatural thing on earth, one must know this knife edge well, understand how it works, and know exactly the point at which you are solidly connected into your heels and simply standing. To stand well means to know how to move well in kung fu footwork, by this view. The important thing is, the same could be said of learning it in the reverse order, learn to stand by learning to move.

As for meditation and standing, I would best have said that for me, I do not necessarily use it as such. I do microcosmic orbit under a great many circumstances, and think that for standing, it is not that different, and not as good, as for other things. Standing is probably an easy way to begin understanding macrocosmic orbit, so I should say that.

To use your mind, breath, and a bit of body point, I tend to meditate under varied practices. I think that esoteric postures are a way to empower a sort of clergy of meditation, see me, I can meditate with a rock on my dingus, therefore I am closer to nirvana. This is not to say that such postures may not be useful, but where the use becomes conflated with wisdom, I have doubts. Wisdom is wisdom, peace is peace, lotus is lotus, horse stance is horse stance. I'd rather be a wise man in a half lotus than a fraud in full lotus. I believe strongly in wisdom through simplicity and acceptance. I'm not sure if this answers your question, I'm not particularly wise today. If the goal of meditation is wisdom and peace, then I stick to that path, whatever the particulars of the tradition. I do not stick to the tradition, and hope to find wisdom and peace. Some would disagree.

[Taixuquan99]

My "world view" is that, having been shown Taijiquan on two continents the "slow stuff old people do" represents 99% of Taiji, the 1% that was different was Taiji as interpreted by a pretty hardcore SJ / Mongolian Wrestling / JJJ exponent.

Not a strong argument. Taiji for health was popularized by the PRC as a non combative thing, but there were and always have been combat oriented schools, and they predate taiji for health, and certain lines continued. In other words, apples and oranges.

Your argument is the same as saying all sewing is to make mass produced clothes because you have been to every department store, and there are no tailors or designers making something else. In this case, like taiji, the designers are making what the knock-offs are mimicking cheaply.

I've been to two continents, and have met a sanshou champion who trained in chen style, and seen lots of chen style wrestling, and met Wu stylists who fought full contact, am familiar with Yang stylists who fought full contact, etc.

Perhaps you weren't discerning in who you associated with. Joking.

[Scott R. Brown]

Perhaps you weren't discerning in who you associated with.

Or too discerning!

Not that I am arguing, but if I were, I would've winned!:p:D

[SimonM]

Nawh, actually, in China, the scumbags, malcontents and thugs I knew tended to be the toughest customers (funny that) but they weren't doing Taiji.

Maybe some baji, a lot of shuai jiao.

[Hendrik]

It could be very confusion when we mix "combat" with "meditation" and "health" in the same thread.

A: Why did you put your arms behind your back when you kicked?
B: It was good for health.

A: Why did you punch to the east while your eyes were looking toward the north.
B: It was good for meditation.



hahaha after 17 pages,

not singer person who knows what is fact of Zhuang Gong or Fajing.
is this the standard of Chinese Kung fu experts in the west? :D

Critics are great however critics needs to know what one critics about. otherwise it is like old lady's whinning on nonsense.


let see what Moyer said

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOpXpQGoub0&feature=related


Bottom line is,
It is a six directional force vectors manipulation gain via Zhuang Gong. Nothing mysterious.

it is extremely stupid to keep bad mouthing advance resultant force handling cultivation of China when one is totally ignorance. you dont have the True transmission Zhen Zhuan, you cant do it. that is how simple it is.

Just me 0.01 cents of opinion.

[Taixuquan99]

Nawh, actually, in China, the scumbags, malcontents and thugs I knew tended to be the toughest customers (funny that) but they weren't doing Taiji.

Maybe some baji, a lot of shuai jiao.

Considering the area I was in was a lot of chen stylists, the local sanshou champ was a chen stylist, and baji was around, but most of the good fighters in the area were straight san shou, chen style, or a combo of the two.

I never once saw a gangster there whose fighting was anything to write home about, and considering that they ran their gambling out of the hotel room across from mine, I saw them "fight" every weekend amongst themselves and their customers any time I looked out my door, I saw plenty of them going at it. The Chen stylists were the best in the city, no question, and they were street fighting plenty, yet the one who didn't and promoted full contact fighting among his students had the best fighters. He was also the most traditional. Go figure.

[Hendrik]

This thread is a sad news which shows the lack of understanding in Internal/ Neigong type of Chinese Martial art training.

It is similar to make critics to beetoven music with chinese music as the absolute reference. it is absolutely off marks.




Standing stake is not a replacement of fighting experience.

Standing stake is a cultivation to make one's body, mind, strength, breath, momentum... whole to support the fighting requirements.





In general, there are 4 level of training in Standing Stake.

1, 固本功夫練: 意靜,形正, 气順. 做到意形气相合為一
level 1, make solid the foundation: get the intention, body, qi to be unity and free flow.


2, 應用功夫練1 : 換勁,气勢, 心神. 所謂: 气連心意隨時用,
Level 2, applications training 1: conversion of strength or various force/momentum vectors, potential - kinetic handling, intention handling. as it said: Qi sync with intention any instant the body/momentum can be evoked.


3, 應用功夫練2 :打破身式無遮攔

Level 3, applications training 2: based on the previous attainment , one proceed to train making use of any type of body shape or posture at any situation. physical body posture is no longer a limit, in fact one is making use to it without trying to change it because changing physical needs time and no one can effort time delay in fighting. one can change the momentum vectors with very minimum changes in physical. that is the key. one play in the realm of momentum vectors and less on the physical shape.




4, 養生功夫練 : 变化精神气貭. 所謂:進人无為而无不為.

Level 4, body mind awareness transformation.






Take a look and observe, in general most of the people who make claim has train in some type of Standing stake doesnt have an idea of the above 4 level training.

and even most of those who have the above idea never get passed level 1 training. They never reach the point of can accumulate Qi in Dan Dian and solidfy- integrate the whole body- mind.


In fact, most just mimic posture, then trying to see how boxing will fit into it.... without even accomplished the very minimum of level one. there is no kung fu in this type of practice.



So, really, what to talk about? what to critic? when one totally doesnt know what it is?

Not to mention, those who passed level 1 will have a body rack or structure which is real solid. those who passed level 2 will be able to take blow and playing with momentum with ease at different part of the body. those who passed level 3 will practically fajing at different parts of the body adapt to the condition without pre assumption. level 4 will further transform one's body-mind-awareness.....


Zhuang Gong is not a religious practice, not a ceremony, not a posture shows. Zhuang Gong is going internal into the body to train how to handle different momentum vectors with ease and strengthen the physical body.....etc.


Trying to compare Zhuang Gong to external posture to some wrestling applications....etc are just totally off mark.

As in the level 3 of Zhuang Gong
气連心意隨時用, 打破身式無遮攔. Qi sync with intention, the body momentum could be used at any time, physical body is not a limitation, it could be used as it at any time.

That is the goal of Zhuang Gong.

Again, NO ONE in TCMA said Zhuang Gong replace fighting experience. However, if one doesnt have Zhuang Gong, one is in trouble of having NO Kung Fu.



Just in my personal opinion, if one take those modern wushu and Mckung fu as the "it " of Chinese Martial art, and using those type of teaching to critics the tranditional Kung Fu training, one is missing the root.

[Taixuquan99]

This thread is a sad news which shows the lack of understanding in Internal/ Neigong type of Chinese Martial art training.

You enter into a discussion held by people with different levels of understanding, in a place meant for that, and bemoan the different levels of understanding. Who is not seeing the way, other than you?


It is similar to make critics to beetoven music with chinese music as the absolute reference. it is absolutely off marks.

Music is an even more complex thing, and there are referents between western and eastern music, common positions, and common preferences and goals, even while there are differences.


Standing stake is not a replacement of fighting experience.

Most here are not saying they are.


Standing stake is a cultivation to make one's body, mind, strength, breath, momentum... whole to support the fighting requirements.

It is a practice to link those, but to link them in standing does not mean one can link them outside. To do the practice for its own sake without doing it toward its full purpose is to make doing the practice the goal. Taoist practices done to be Taoist miss the mark every time.


In general, there are 4 level of training in Standing Stake.

1, 固本功夫練: 意靜,形正, 气順. 做到意形气相合為一
level 1, make solid the foundation: get the intention, body, qi to be unity and free flow.


2, 應用功夫練1 : 換勁,气勢, 心神. 所謂: 气連心意隨時用,
Level 2, applications training 1: conversion of strength or various force/momentum vectors, potential - kinetic handling, intention handling. as it said: Qi sync with intention any instant the body/momentum can be evoked.


3, 應用功夫練2 :打破身式無遮攔

Level 3, applications training 2: based on the previous attainment , one proceed to train making use of any type of body shape or posture at any situation. physical body posture is no longer a limit, in fact one is making use to it without trying to change it because changing physical needs time and no one can effort time delay in fighting. one can change the momentum vectors with very minimum changes in physical. that is the key. one play in the realm of momentum vectors and less on the physical shape.




4, 養生功夫練 : 变化精神气貭. 所謂:進人无為而无不為.

Level 4, body mind awareness transformation.






Take a look and observe, in general most of the people who make claim has train in some type of Standing stake doesnt have an idea of the above 4 level training.


And you are saying it is outside the Tao that most in any endeavor are not the greatest in that endeavor? You belittle anyone whose understanding is not what you think it should be, but it seems like you lack understanding in doing so. Perhaps the goals of some discussing are to understand better by seeing different ideas or other perspectives on the thing, while yours are to convince of what you think is. Yet, your approach is more suitable to a place where your ideas are the central theme, and yet you visit a place where no one view is prescribed. I am not intending to insult, merely noting the situation.


and even most of those who have the above idea never get passed level 1 training. They never reach the point of can accumulate Qi in Dan Dian and solidfy- integrate the whole body- mind.

I think you risk creating virtues in order to bemoan their absence in others.


In fact, most just mimic posture, then trying to see how boxing will fit into it.... without even accomplished the very minimum of level one. there is no kung fu in this type of practice.

Most kungfu in China, Taiwan, and everywhere else, does not include any of the steps you are discussing in any real sense. Why should those of us who may find some use in it be upset or degrade those who do not?


So, really, what to talk about? what to critic? when one totally doesnt know what it is?

Not to mention, those who passed level 1 will have a body rack or structure which is real solid. those who passed level 2 will be able to take blow and playing with momentum with ease at different part of the body. those who passed level 3 will practically fajing at different parts of the body adapt to the condition without pre assumption. level 4 will further transform one's body-mind-awareness.....

You avoid defining level 4, but aside from this, I must disagree with aspects of what you are saying. If two people at level two contend or fight, the longer confrontation persists, the less ease involved, because the accumulated momentum, force, kinetic energy, will surpass their human limits to deal with. Taoism dictates that the way of a human is in being human, and to pretend to have a tortoise shell is just pretending. One can maximize human attributes, and work in an optimal way, but one cannot surpass them. The desire to surpass them is what Zhuangzi talked about when discussing one man who lived long being a legend being laughable when a tortoise in a nearby village lived far longer.


Zhuang Gong is not a religious practice, not a ceremony, not a posture shows. Zhuang Gong is going internal into the body to train how to handle different momentum vectors with ease and strengthen the physical body.....etc.

For some it is a religious practice, but we're not discussing them. As for strengthening the physical body, it is one way, but I'm not aware of a single tradition that relies on it as the only way, nor should that aspect of it even approach the importance of its use in the first sense, regarding forces.


Trying to compare Zhuang Gong to external posture to some wrestling applications....etc are just totally off mark.

Not sure who is bringing up wrestling, but, if the Tao didn't favor wrestling, there would be no wrestling. If knowing how to handle force training excludes wrestling, knowing that the Tao is that wrestling exists, then what does that say about one's approach to training. Applications in taoist martial arts, at their best, are merely unadulterated pictures of what happens when you are connected and an external force is applied to you that you don't fight.


As in the level 3 of Zhuang Gong
气連心意隨時用, 打破身式無遮攔. Qi sync with intention, the body momentum could be used at any time, physical body is not a limitation, it could be used as it at any time.

That is the goal of Zhuang Gong.

I disagree. If the Tao is that I am being pushed rearward, then all must start from this, and it is not the case that I should fight the Tao, but join it and move to the next point. If the Tao is that I am being pushed, but the pusher is muddy in their attempt, then it may be the case that pushing back more immediately dissolves their force, whereas allowing the push that doesn't fully exist may just make it real. The physical body is defining this, to believe otherwise is entirely missing the point of standing post. To not fight what is requires acceptance of what is, receptivity guiding creation, to believe that one can do anything at anytime is refusing to accept reality, it is not receptivity, it is not listening, and no creation will often come from this.


Just in my personal opinion, if one take those modern wushu and Mckung fu as the "it " of Chinese Martial art, and using those type of teaching to critics the tranditional Kung Fu training, one is missing the root.

There is no one root to Chinese kung fu.

[YouKnowWho]

to believe that one can do anything at anytime is refusing to accept reality,

Agree with you 100% on this. We may be able to play tennis well with our right hand but we may not be able to play tennis well with our left hand. There are 100 miles apart between knowing how to do it in our "mind" and be able to do it on our "body". A "principle" base TCMA guy may believe that if he can do a "hook punch", he should be able to do a "roundhouse kick". After all both use the same prnciple of "body leads limbs". Even if we know how do do it in our mind, we just can't "do anything at anytime" without training our body how to do it first.

[Hendrik]

You enter into a discussion held by people with different levels of understanding, in a place meant for that, and bemoan the different levels of understanding. Who is not seeing the way, other than you?

if one cant tell what it is one dont have it.

if you know the why, what, and milestone of Zhan Zhuang you are more welcome to share it here.

BTW. the Why, What, and milestone of Zhan Zhuang doesnt depend on the levels we are in. Such as we dont have to go to college. but we must know there is elementry school, high school, college, grad school....etc.




It is a practice to link those, but to link them in standing does not mean one can link them outside.

To do the practice for its own sake without doing it toward its full purpose is to make doing the practice the goal. Taoist practices done to be Taoist miss the mark every time.

I am talking Chinese Martial art training a tangible training not religion or philosophy.

When one cannot link them to outside that just mean one has not train in the six directional forces balancing and attain it. and thus, they have not reach that state in Zhuang Gong.







And you are saying it is outside the Tao that most in any endeavor are not the greatest in that endeavor?

You belittle anyone whose understanding is not what you think it should be, but it seems like you lack understanding in doing so.

Perhaps the goals of some discussing are to understand better by seeing different ideas or other perspectives on the thing, while yours are to convince of what you think is.

Yet, your approach is more suitable to a place where your ideas are the central theme, and yet you visit a place where no one view is prescribed. I am not intending to insult, merely noting the situation.


I am talking Chinese Martial art training in very specific of what is Zhang Zhuan is for.

One always can accuse others on belittle when one cannot define and knowing the specific. so why not understand what it is then accuse?

Chinese Martial art training has a tradition and a process based on the general and particular style. that is not up to different ideas.










Most kungfu in China, Taiwan, and everywhere else, does not include any of the steps you are discussing in any real sense.

Why should those of us who may find some use in it be upset or degrade those who do not?



If I cant see Sun that doesnt mean sun doesnt exist.

Finding out what it is and where do one stand got nothing to do with upset or degrading. upset or degrading comes when one loves one's ego more then the facts.








You avoid defining level 4, but aside from this, I must disagree with aspects of what you are saying.

I dont avoid defining level 4. in fact, it is already defined. I am just a messenger. all of these are not my invention. I dont want to eleborate level 4 because before one could get beyond level 1. one could not understand what is level 4.


you can disagree with me, however that is not my definition. I am just a messenger. You can shoot me, but you cant change the reality of Chinese TCMA tradition.







Taoism dictates that the way of a human is in being human, and to pretend to have a tortoise shell is just pretending.

One can maximize human attributes, and work in an optimal way, but one cannot surpass them.

The desire to surpass them is what Zhuangzi talked about when discussing one man who lived long being a legend being laughable when a tortoise in a nearby village lived far longer.


You are talking philosophy here.

I am talking the Chinese Neigong cultivation which is practiced in the internal art ring. It is well define, with specific goal, and the mile stone of attainment is clear.
unless one has walked the journey one doesnt know. It is not the philosophy where one can reason with anything one like.




For some it is a religious practice, but we're not discussing them.

As for strengthening the physical body, it is one way, but I'm not aware of a single tradition that relies on it as the only way, nor should that aspect of it even approach the importance of its use in the first sense, regarding forces.


Again, I am talking Chinese martial art Neigong road map of Zhan Zhuang. Not philosophy or religious.

Where did I say it is the only way?

The above 4 levels are a general summary of Chinese Neigong training in Chinese internal Martial art practice. Zhan Zhuang is not the only way but if one is practicing Zhan Zhuang then the road map of the 4 level is clear.




Not sure who is bringing up wrestling, but, if the Tao didn't favor wrestling, there would be no wrestling.

If knowing how to handle force training excludes wrestling, knowing that the Tao is that wrestling exists, then what does that say about one's approach to training.

Applications in taoist martial arts, at their best, are merely unadulterated pictures of what happens when you are connected and an external force is applied to you that you don't fight.


My post of revealing the 4 general level of Traditional Neigong practice milestone in Chinese Martial art is to answer the first post of the thread in details.


You are talking religion and Tao can be anything you like to define. I am ok with whatever you speculate or your believe.

however, I am presenting the Chinese martial art tradition's level and milestone.
of what is Zhan Zhuang, what is it, why is it, and what one expect to achieve.
So, we are talking two different things.






I disagree.

If the Tao is that I am being pushed rearward, then all must start from this, and it is not the case that I should fight the Tao, but join it and move to the next point.

If the Tao is that I am being pushed, but the pusher is muddy in their attempt, then it may be the case that pushing back more immediately dissolves their force, whereas allowing the push that doesn't fully exist may just make it real.

The physical body is defining this, to believe otherwise is entirely missing the point of standing post.

To not fight what is requires acceptance of what is, receptivity guiding creation, to believe that one can do anything at anytime is refusing to accept reality, it is not receptivity, it is not listening, and no creation will often come from this.


I am perfectly ok with your Tao believe and perfectly respect your ideas.

However, I am not going there. I am specifically in the realm of Chinese Martial art training -- Zhan Zhuang, what is it, why is it, what is the goal of it.

and there is no compremised in the 4 level of training. one simple needs to know where one is.

I might be only in level 1 or not even level 1 yet, however, that got nothing to do with sharing the facts in the Neigong practice.





There is no one root to Chinese kung fu.

That is your opinion and it is fine with me.

for those who like to see reality of TCMA,
Ask a simple questions why is it Shao Lin has Zhuang Gong, Xing Yi has Zhuang Gong, Emei has Zhuang Gong,..... Southern TCMA has horse standing....?

[Hendrik]

Zhan Zhuang in Chinese Martial art Neigong training is not a religion, not a philosophy, but a solid clear well define training.

It doesnt have the warm feeling of " oh, you are in Dao, I am in Dao too. we both in the Dao.... and Dao means......etc "

instead,

it is " which level have you attained? can you kung fu handle what you face?"

Even more critical, Does one know what one train in and what kind of result or end goal one has?


It is not an easy thing to shallow.
but it is a reality if one decide to get into martial art neigong training.

[Taixuquan99]

In China, either neigong is taoist, or buddhist(with taoist influence). The neigong that openly defies Taoist principles is where?

[Taixuquan99]

Agree with you 100% on this. We may be able to play tennis well with our right hand but we may not be able to play tennis well with our left hand. There are 100 miles apart between knowing how to do it in our "mind" and be able to do it on our "body". A "principle" base TCMA guy may believe that if he can do a "hook punch", he should be able to do a "roundhouse kick". After all both use the same prnciple of "body leads limbs". Even if we know how do do it in our mind, we just can't "do anything at anytime" without training our body how to do it first.

And some things simply cannot be done.

[Hendrik]

In China, either neigong is taoist, or buddhist(with taoist influence). The neigong that openly defies Taoist principles is where?


Could you please introduce yourself and the martial art you practice and who you learn from?

what is the neigong that defies Taoist principles? which Neigong? and Which Taoist principle according to which Taoist classic?

Please be specific on the details and practice.

[Hendrik]

Agree with you 100% on this. We may be able to play tennis well with our right hand but we may not be able to play tennis well with our left hand.


There are 100 miles apart between knowing how to do it in our "mind" and be able to do it on our "body".


A "principle" base TCMA guy may believe that if he can do a "hook punch", he should be able to do a "roundhouse kick". After all both use the same prnciple of "body leads limbs". Even if we know how do do it in our mind, we just can't "do anything at anytime" without training our body how to do it first.


We are talking Zhan Zhuang here so it is not "mind" or "principle" based.

it is a practice , training, with clear process, and milestone of attainment.


That is the reason one needs to be very specific and with a milestone on what is one doing.

[YouKnowWho]

We are talking Zhan Zhuang here so it is not "mind" or "principle" based.
I was agreeing with Taixuquan99's comment, "to believe that one can do anything at anytime is refusing to accept reality."

Can Zhan Zhuang help you to develop your "single leg shooting"? If you think that ZZ can help you to learn anything, you are just not honest to yourself.

When you spend 6 hours a day train your ZZ. Another guy spends 6 hours a day train his "single leg shooting". Who is going to win after 3 years of training? I understand that "combat" may not be on your highest priority list. For those people who treat "combat" seriously, they may not want to take the same path as you do.

If I'm going to have a death match in 3 months, I don't think I'll spend any of my training time in those 3 months doing ZZ. IMO, ZZ is just not the best way to help someone to be a good fighter.

[Hendrik]

Only if your world view is such that you think Taijiquan is slow stuff old people do...


The issue here is the level of practice.


Most people who did Taijiquan doesnt reach the level 1 of training as my previous post. Thus, the benifit is not that much.

A few passed level 1 training, that can have a good health benifit, however, that doesnt have any martial art /fighting applications ability.

even rare get into level 2 training, which started martial art figthing applications, thus Taiji fighter is rare.


to passed level 2 and get into level 3, we are looking at people like Chen Xio-wang.

To passed level 3, we are looking at people like Sun Lu-Dang or Gou Yun Shen or Wang Xiang-Zai.



it is a mess, if one's practice is only within level 1 and thinking what s/he learn has any martial art ability. it is also a mess without the level 2 training one think s/he could fight with an ordinary fighter such as the Suai Chio or mmA.

However, with a level 2 and above training, one will certainly be able to handle Suai Chio or mmA fighter.

[Hendrik]

I was agreeing with Taixuquan99's comment, "to believe that one can do anything at anytime is refusing to accept reality."

I agree with that too.

believing without attainment is delusion.






Can Zhan Zhuang help you to develop your "single leg shooting"? If you think that ZZ can help you to learn anything, you are just not honest to yourself.

When you spend 6 hours a day train your ZZ. Another guy spends 6 hours a day train his "single leg shooting". Who is going to win after 3 years of training?


or perhaps as usual,
you dont read what I post but keep thinking the way you want? Who says ZZ can help one to learn anything? read my previous post before making assumption.


As for your question, After three years no one is going to Win.






I understand exactly what path that you are taking. For people who is more interesting in "combat", this's just not the path that people want to take.



The following is from my previous post.




Standing stake is not a replacement of fighting experience.

Standing stake is a cultivation to make one's body, mind, strength, breath, momentum... whole to support the fighting requirements.



I am presenting what is Zhan Zhuang means in Chinese martial art, that simple nothing more and nothing less.

Got nothing to do with interesting in 'combat"....etc. or path I am taking.

[aussie1981]

Chen xioa wang is probably better that the other guy's you mentioned, his fa jing is very refined.

[Hendrik]

Chen xioa wang is probably better that the other guy's you mentioned, his fa jing is very refined.


The other guys I mention were all top martial artists in 1930. some have beat Olympic wrestle and Japanese Judo challengers in China. These people are real deal. not sport man but live and die with martial art. The four level I mention was related to them closely.

[Taixuquan99]

I do taixuquan.

Since my teacher wasn't Chinese, you wouldn't know him.

I do not dispute the idea of the levels of practice at all. I do dispute that the higher levels are attained by ZZ. ZZ is best in making one aware of the routes of connection, if pressure here, it releases here, if release here, etc...

In allowing one to translate that into fighting ability, drills like tuishou, in short, training with others, are absolutely required. To familiarize oneself with circuits in ZZ teaches one aspect. One's attainment in it, and one's own basic attributes, if that is the main tool used, will color their expression of energy when crossing hands with people, but to be able to translate zz into fighting from a perspective of dealing with energy, one has to face those other energies. ZZ without tuishou is empty of martial relevance to dealing with nuance of outside energy or receptivity of a color one does not know.

As such, ZZ alone cannot teach to deal with a competent fighter, and history has shown this. The fighters you named undoubtedly did other things more than zz, things that gave them experience in knowing how to use the circuits when incoming energy from another fighter is strong, is sly, is slow, is quick, etc. Thus, working with peers, and many of them, not separating into their own classes and surrounding themselves only with students, for example.

As for Taoist texts, of course there are many, but it is safe to say that, if a text is at odds with the tao te ching and the zhuangzi, it is not useful from a taoist perspective. I find the tao te ching interesting in it's complexity, and the Zhuangzi essential in its simplicity. Without the Zhuangzi, Taoism is easily read as an avoidance of what is, but Zhuangzi is clear that those who laud their small little attainments compete with the way. I also find Sun Bu-er quite useful, thus my earlier comments regarding receptivity being required for creativity. From there, there's a number of other texts on specific practices, but even with these, it is vital to understand them in light of the aforementioned texts. As for texts about immortality, they are as laughable now as they were to Zhuangzi, though some of them may be beautiful and holding some meaning, even if they miss the point of being human.

[Taixuquan99]

Additionally, to suggest, because a style trains horse, that they also, by default, use the schema you do, is demonstrably erroneous. The method you are discussing is not applicable to all versions of horse stance in kung fu, at all.

This is not an attack on your method, I tend to agree that the best horse for internal concepts is able to follow the training path you mention, but different paths have different means and goals, which I think is good.

[aussie1981]

Ah ok, beating olymic wrestlers isn't easy. Hasn't chen xioa wang put a few judo guy's on there arse or something? I see what you're getting at with the different levels, a huge problem is that it's all taught to slowly. Three years of this before a further three years of that....

[Scott R. Brown]

As for Taoist texts, of course there are many, but it is safe to say that, if a text is at odds with the tao te ching and the zhuangzi, it is not useful from a taoist perspective. I find the tao te ching interesting in it's complexity, and the Zhuangzi essential in its simplicity. Without the Zhuangzi, Taoism is easily read as an avoidance of what is, but Zhuangzi is clear that those who laud their small little attainments compete with the way. I also find Sun Bu-er quite useful, thus my earlier comments regarding receptivity being required for creativity. From there, there's a number of other texts on specific practices, but even with these, it is vital to understand them in light of the aforementioned texts. As for texts about immortality, they are as laughable now as they were to Zhuangzi, though some of them may be beautiful and holding some meaning, even if they miss the point of being human.

Since you appreciate the Tao Te Ching & Chuang Tzu, you may appreciate The Nei Ye since it precedes the Tao Te Ching as a Taoist Treatise.

Not that I am arguing....but if I was, I would've winned! ;)

[Scott R. Brown]

Ah ok, beating olymic wrestlers isn't easy. Hasn't chen xioa wang put a few judo guy's on there arse or something? I see what you're getting at with the different levels, a huge problem is that it's all taught to slowly. Three years of this before a further three years of that....

Who were the judo players? I could put a boxer or a wrestler or a judo player on his butt too.

In fact I choked out a brownbelt judo player who out weighed me by 40#-60# 4 times! He was not pleased with that. I didn't use any ZZ on him either. I just used a strategy he wasn't familiar defending against.

[Taixuquan99]

Since you appreciate the Tao Te Ching & Chuang Tzu, you may appreciate The Nei Ye since it precedes the Tao Te Ching as a Taoist Treatise.

Not that I am arguing....but if I was, I would've winned! ;)

If I were arguing, I would've winned first, you obviously don't know the six vectors of argument, it's a comment on the sad state of Taoist wordslinging, in the old days, you could hardly take three steps without a drunken Taoist master saying something about itself and another drunken Taoist master saying something about something said about itself.

Now? Boobie pics.

[Scott R. Brown]

Since you are so well versed in the 6 Vectors of Argument, I am sure you are well aware that it actually started out as 3 vectors of argument from 2 different schools of Tao until one day the Chocolate Taoist Master got drunk and accidentally bumped into the Peanut Butter Taoist Master who also happened to be drunk. Once the one got his Chocolate into the other's Peanut Butter, well, the rest is history.....we got the Reese's Peanut Butter Cup 6 Vectors of Argument and thus my confidence I would've winned!

[Scott R. Brown]

BTW: No More BOOBIES!!!

Sanjuro has retired from the forum!:(

[Taixuquan99]

Since you are so well versed in the 6 Vectors of Argument, I am sure you are well aware that it actually started out as 3 vectors of argument from 2 different schools of Tao until one day the Chocolate Taoist Master got drunk and accidentally bumped into the Peanut Butter Taoist Master who also happened to be drunk. Once the one got his Chocolate into the other's Peanut Butter, well, the rest is history.....we got the Reese's Peanut Butter Cup 6 Vectors of Argument and thus my confidence I would've winned!

I know from the real deal masters that it was the peanut butter Taoist master that bumped into the chocolate master, what you are saying is more proof of the sad state of things.:(

[Taixuquan99]

BTW: No More BOOBIES!!!

Sanjuro has retired from the forum!:(

He has? Really?

[Scott R. Brown]

I know from the real deal masters that it was the peanut butter Taoist master that bumped into the chocolate master, what you are saying is more proof of the sad state of things.:(

I expected such a response from a real deal master follower, because they are Pea-Nuts! Only false masters have to refer to themselves or have their students refer to them as "the real deal"!

My masters don't make deals, THAT is how you know they are REAL!

We also are not afraid to insult our competitors by using derisive symbols : :p:p

See how advanced we are?

[Scott R. Brown]

BTW: No More BOOBIES!!!

Sanjuro has retired from the forum!:(


He has? Really?

Go to: Off Topic/Enjoy

It looks like it, but I can't say for sure!:confused::(

[Taixuquan99]

I expected such a response from a real deal master follower, because they are Pea-Nuts! Only false masters have to refer to themselves or have their students refer to them as "the real deal"!

My masters don't make deals, THAT is how you know they are REAL!

We also are not afraid to insult our competitors by using derisive symbols : :p:p

See how advanced we are?

I will humor you, but this is just me practicing ex-pea-dient means.

[Scott R. Brown]

I will humor you, but this is just me practicing ex-pea-dient means.

Uh..that's ex-peanut-ient butter means! What would you do without me to set you on the correct path to the Taoverse Diety!

[Taixuquan99]

Uh..that's ex-peanut-ient butter means! What would you do without me to set you on the correct path to the Taoverse Diety!

Ah, another knucklehead influenced by the crunchy heterodoxy.:rolleyes:

[taai gihk yahn]

Ah, another knucklehead influenced by the crunchy heterodoxy.:rolleyes:

that would be the sound of you eating the Fraud Salad™

[Hendrik]

Thanks for sharing.




I do taixuquan.

Since my teacher wasn't Chinese, you wouldn't know him.




What is TaiXuquan? Could you please share?





I do not dispute the idea of the levels of practice at all.

I do dispute that the higher levels are attained by ZZ.

ZZ is best in making one aware of the routes of connection, if pressure here, it releases here, if release here, etc...


Which level or the 4 level have you and the best person you have seen attain in ZZ?






In allowing one to translate that into fighting ability, drills like tuishou, in short, training with others, are absolutely required.

To familiarize oneself with circuits in ZZ teaches one aspect. One's attainment in it, and one's own basic attributes, if that is the main tool used, will color their expression of energy when crossing hands with people, but to be able to translate zz into fighting from a perspective of dealing with energy, one has to face those other energies. ZZ without tuishou is empty of martial relevance to dealing with nuance of outside energy or receptivity of a color one does not know.



ZZ is a platform for one to train and experiments one's body mechanics, mind, Qi, awareness, intent, momentum. it is not a posture.


Thus, I have heard, in level 2 of ZZ one is doing Tuishou with the air.

because at that point the body has already attain the "one feather not landing state" . unless one has this attainment, one will not be able to know what is the advance level stuffs---- of small move is better then large move, no move is better then small move.







As such, ZZ alone cannot teach to deal with a competent fighter, and history has shown this. The fighters you named undoubtedly did other things more than zz,





As i have told YouknowWho,


This following is in the same post with my sharing of the 4 level. and obviously it was not read.



Standing stake is not a replacement of fighting experience.

Standing stake is a cultivation to make one's body, mind, strength, breath, momentum... whole to support the fighting requirements.



In fact, the levels of ZZ is related deeply with those people of 1930 and before who I mention. I got my information on the level from some one who study with these people.





As for Taoist texts, of course there are many, but it is safe to say that, if a text is at odds with the tao te ching and the zhuangzi, it is not useful from a taoist perspective. I find the tao te ching interesting in it's complexity, and the Zhuangzi essential in its simplicity. Without the Zhuangzi, Taoism is easily read as an avoidance of what is, but Zhuangzi is clear that those who laud their small little attainments compete with the way. I also find Sun Bu-er quite useful, thus my earlier comments regarding receptivity being required for creativity. From there, there's a number of other texts on specific practices, but even with these, it is vital to understand them in light of the aforementioned texts. As for texts about immortality, they are as laughable now as they were to Zhuangzi, though some of them may be beautiful and holding some meaning, even if they miss the point of being human.


Ok. for me, these are up to everyone's interpretation text. I wouldnt get into this because everyone's imagination is valid by themself.

I am into traditional Chinese martial art existing practice and process only.

[Taixuquan99]

that would be the sound of you eating the Fraud Salad™

Only Americans call it the fraud salad, in China, those who know the true path of the six directional orthodoxy of direction call it "Walking the Taco".
You taco the walk, but can you walk the taco? Few know this to the eighth level of understanding, no one here has shown even second level understanding.

A hint, only by moving uni-directionally can you move in the six directions. In this case, move left.

[Taixuquan99]

Thanks for sharing.
What is TaiXuquan? Could you please share?

Great Void Boxing, it's in the same family as the other taiji styles, resembles chen style to a degree.



Which level or the 4 level have you and the best person you have seen attain in ZZ?

It's a vexed question in a way, as ZZ without tuishou does not lead to even level two of your list. The training is a holistic thing, except that, once one understands the circuits in ZZ, one expresses them more efficiently in tuishou, because they don't exist properly without someone else to give them context. At that point tuishou is the way and measure, until one can apply them without the limitations of tuishou, at which point they are in their true context, a martial one.

I have seen people at times at the highest level, but the more equal the practitioners, the more it becomes clear that perfection is a false idea.


ZZ is a platform for one to train and experiments one's body mechanics, mind, Qi, awareness, intent, momentum. it is not a posture.
Thus, I have heard, in level 2 of ZZ one is doing Tuishou with the air.

To do this, one is introducing a false influence, and thus is resisting to make something to yield to, or follow, or what have you. Without tuishou, without others, ZZ does not lead to martial knowledge. And tuishou ultimately replaces ZZ as the ideal way to train body mechanics in relation to others, i.e. martial.



because at that point the body has already attain the "one feather not landing state" . unless one has this attainment, one will not be able to know what is the advance level stuffs---- of small move is better then large move, no move is better then small move.

This is where trying to disassociate ZZ from Taoism fails, it is Taoist at its heart. Big=less good, small=more good, nothing=ideal are arbitrary judgments. Before able to bridge, big is better than small. The relation falls apart. Big, small, and without motion are simply important things at times, but which is correct at the time depends on the situation.


obviously it was not read.

It was read, but context is important. You relate it to fighting in one comment, and disassociate it in the next. Since the entire discussion is regarding fighting, it's best to stick with the related definition. As I said, they are holistic, if one uses ZZ for martial training, then its impact is definable, but YKW is correct, it cannot train all things, so that training ZZ alone, to whatever level, is a dead end if one is intending to use it for martial training.


I
n fact, the levels of ZZ is related deeply with those people of 1930 and before who I mention. I got my information on the level from some one who study with these people.

As already stated, they did not do ZZ alone, because ZZ alone could not give them the kungfu needed.


Ok. for me, these are up to everyone's interpretation text. I wouldnt get into this because everyone's imagination is valid by themself.

They are major foundations of Taoism, and certainly some things are not debatable, but consistent in them. Labelling, x=good, y=bad, is consistently considered a waste of time. Non-acceptance of circumstances is considered a waste of time and energy. Lots of clear agreement. Since ZZ is a Taoist practice, they are highly relevant. Thus my comment about Zhuangzi's view on human pride in accomplishments, the greatest ZZ practitioner will never yield like a willow in wind, so being proud of good human yielding, or scowling at lesser ZZ, is laughable.


I am into traditional Chinese martial art existing practice and process only.

It's a Taoist practice, there really is no getting away from that fact. It can be useful, imo, but it is only what it is.

[Hendrik]

Great Void Boxing, it's in the same family as the other taiji styles, resembles chen style to a degree.



Thanks for your sharing.


are you one of these parctictioners?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCuf7hPcf5I

[Hendrik]

Quote:
ZZ is a platform for one to train and experiments one's body mechanics, mind, Qi, awareness, intent, momentum. it is not a posture.
Thus, I have heard, in level 2 of ZZ one is doing Tuishou with the air.




To do this, one is introducing a false influence, and thus is resisting to make something to yield to, or follow, or what have you.

Without tuishou, without others, ZZ does not lead to martial knowledge.

And tuishou ultimately replaces ZZ as the ideal way to train body mechanics in relation to others, i.e. martial.




The above seems to be a reasoning thinking, however, why is

why those who are in second level and above said,
As Chen Man-Ching said, " swiming in the air" " Training with the air"?

The key is to attain the state of "one feather cannot land" without that reasoning thinking is just thinking because one doesnt know what it is.

[Hendrik]

It was read, but context is important. You relate it to fighting in one comment, and disassociate it in the next. Since the entire discussion is regarding fighting, it's best to stick with the related definition. As I said, they are holistic, if one uses ZZ for martial training, then its impact is definable, but YKW is correct, it cannot train all things, so that training ZZ alone, to whatever level, is a dead end if one is intending to use it for martial training.

I would not argue with you on this because if you dont want to read the trafic sign you could come up with 100000 reason which is valid for yourself. disregards of the trafic sign sit there for years. :D

[Hendrik]

Quote:
because at that point the body has already attain the "one feather not landing state" .

unless one has this attainment, one will not be able to know what is the advance level stuffs---- of small move is better then large move, no move is better then small move.




This is where trying to disassociate ZZ from Taoism fails, it is Taoist at its heart. Big=less good, small=more good, nothing=ideal are arbitrary judgments. Before able to bridge, big is better than small. The relation falls apart. Big, small, and without motion are simply important things at times, but which is correct at the time depends on the situation.


Got nothing to do with Taoist or Taosim. but all to do with the attainment of Zhuang Gong Level 1.

Have you attain " one feather not landing" ?

[taai gihk yahn]

Thanks for your sharing.


are you one of these parctictioners?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCuf7hPcf5I

I don't think he is, they seem a bit too hard core for him;

but at least he's not one of these fairies...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fh2dZLPquWw&feature=related

[Taixuquan99]

I don't think he is, they seem a bit too hard core for him;

but at least he's not one of these fairies...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fh2dZLPquWw&feature=related

My form requires sequins. For the six directional force.

[Hendrik]

My form requires sequins. For the six directional force.

what is six directional force?

[Scott R. Brown]

what is six directional force?

If you do not know 6 directional force you cannot reach the highest levels of Kung Fu.

You can't learn it from any human person, you must ask the Taoverse Deity from a deep meditative state while performing Standing Steak in a nice Texas Barbecue sauce.

I doubt he would teach you a thing though, your soda pop bottle is full. Until you can empty it followed by an exceedingly hearty eructation you will be full with only your self. As long as you are filled with self there is no room for Tao!

[Scott R. Brown]

I don't think he is, they seem a bit too hard core for him;

but at least he's not one of these fairies...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fh2dZLPquWw&feature=related

That's not the famous Ben Dover is it?:eek::D

[Taixuquan99]

That's not the famous Ben Dover is it?:eek::D

Well, he was originally named Ben Lauden, but this caused a lot of problems, so he changed his name, first to Ben Meers, which led to a lot of hate mail from vampires, then finally to Ben Dover, and he is quite famous. He has so refined the first level of the six directional force that he has achieved "the feather no tickle", as well as "Carl Weathers no punk" and "Waylon Smithers loves Burns".

[Scott R. Brown]

Well, he was originally named Ben Lauden, but this caused a lot of problems, so he changed his name, first to Ben Meers, which led to a lot of hate mail from vampires, then finally to Ben Dover, and he is quite famous. He has so refined the first level of the six directional force that he has achieved "the feather no tickle", as well as "Carl Weathers no punk" and "Waylon Smithers loves Burns".

You forgot Ben Vereen!:p

[Taixuquan99]

You forgot Ben Vereen!:p

I once saw him lecture Peter Parker on how, with great power, comes great responsibility.

[Scott R. Brown]

I once saw him lecture Peter Parker on how, with great power, comes great responsibility.

Clearly you were not paying attention, it was a lecture on how being a dancer does NOT mean you are Gay, and with being a heterosexual dancer comes great responsibility!

[GeneChing]

Enter to win KungFuMagazine.com's contest for STANDING QIGONG FOR HEALTH AND MARTIAL ARTS, autographed by Noel Plaugher (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/sweepstakes-standing-qiqong-health.php)! Contest ends 6:00 p.m. PST on 10/1/2015.

[GeneChing]

See our WINNERS-STANDING-QIGONG-FOR-HEALTH-AND-MARTIAL-ARTS-autographed-by-Noel-Plaugher (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?68979-WINNERS-STANDING-QIGONG-FOR-HEALTH-AND-MARTIAL-ARTS-autographed-by-Noel-Plaugher) thread.