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icyninjabear
03-11-2001, 03:36 AM
Can any one give me the names of all the Zhang Zhaung postures apart from the typical 'first position', 'second position' etc. etc.
I have been informed by a friend who practices bagua that the second of these standing post exercises is called 'lion holds ball' is he right in thinking this and if so what are the rest of the positions called.

Cheers for your help,

'ninjabear

NJ
03-11-2001, 05:46 AM
Any 'striking posture' (ideal structural alignment reached at the time of schock delivery/contact) can be used as a "Zhuang Gong" posture. BaguaZhang usually contains 8 animal or palm 'flavors'. Within each animal or palm, there are several (again, usually broken down in eights) subsequent striking postures.

The characteristic posture of the 'Lion' is called "the lion holds the ball" or "the lion opens it's mouth".

If you have any further questions regarding this, feel free to e-mail me at lepp@asia.com

Cheers,

djl

Kung Lek
04-30-2001, 09:51 PM
Hi-

the standing post postures are very simple and easy to learn and will benefit you greatly from the use of them.

There is simply standing with the feet at shoulder width and hands resting lightly at the sides with enough room under the armpit to hold a "quail egg"

A very slight bend in the knees.

The back is straight and the chin is slightly tucked. Imagine a string at the very top of your head holding your body up. The bone structure of the body supporting itself, breathing relaxed and chest very slightly concaved.

Other postures include extended arms with hands apart, palms facing you and arms held at shoulder height. This is likely what you are referring to as Lion holds the ball.

It has other names to associated with embracing balls and tree trunks.

These are the two main postures of Jam Jong (Zhang Zhuang) but essentially the aim is to still the mind and body while maintaining an upright position.

peace

Kung Lek

eightgates
05-05-2001, 01:04 PM
Hi Icy Bear,

Which Zhan Zhuang forms are you referring to? Every system has their own type of Zhan Zhuang and as Kung Lek mentioned, sometimes employ different names than other styles for the same posture. Perhaps you are referring to the postures in "The Way of Energy" by Lam Kam Chuen? If so, the postures are from Yiquan and the names are as follows:

Posture 1 - Wuji Zhuang ("Limitless" Post)
Posture 2 - Cheng Bao Zhuang (Prop Up-Uproot Post)
Posture 3 - Ti Bao Zhuang (Raise and Embrace Post)
Posture 4 - Fan Shui Zhuang (Separating Water Post)
Posture 5 - Tui Tuo Zhuang (Pushing Supporting Post)
Posture 6 - Zuo You Shen Yao Zhuang (Left Right Extend Waist)
Posture 7 - Ding Ba Zhuang (Chinese characters for the shape of the letter "T" and number "8" [referring to the position of the feet] Post)
Posture 8 - Tui An Zhuang (Pushing Pressing Post)
Posture 9 - Du Li Zhuang (Single Leg Post)

Best wishes, :)
Eightgate

Buddy
05-05-2001, 01:55 PM
Hi all,
There are actually over 200 such standing postures in the Taoist neigung method, each designed to open up particular areas of the body.
Buddy

icyninjabear
05-09-2001, 04:23 PM
Thanks everyone for your helpfull comments. As eightgate has pointed out I forgot to say which system of zhang zhaung I was referring to! It is the one practiced and taught by Master Lam Kam Chuen that forms the basics of Yi Quan.

- eightgate: you seem to be a font of all knowlegde on this particular subject, thanks so much for the all the different names. Where did you get these from/who teaches you? Is there a book on Yi Quan that you'd recommend me have a look at so I can get more info on the postures especially relating to their history, what they do and especially what I should be doing/thinking while standing.

I know I should really be learning this first hand from a zhan zhaung master, I try and see Master Lam whenever I can, but I could do with some stuff to read and digest between the rare occasions when I do have contact with him.

Yours hopefully,

Icy bear

eightgates
05-10-2001, 01:22 PM
Hi Icy Bear,

I'm actually more like a dribble than any fount of knowledge! It's just that I've picked up a few bits of knowledge over the years. Aside from that, I am glad to hear that you have the opportunity to study with Master Lam. He has done much to help popularize Yiquan (a.k.a. Dachengquan) in the West. You should definitely take advantage of every chance you get to learn from him. My first Yiquan teacher is also a student of Master Yu Yongnian, that's why I have the names. As you probably have discovered, there isn't much written in English about Yiquan yet. Two very informative sites (I'm sure you already have Master Lam's) you will want to visit are (in no particular order):

1) http://members.surfeu.fi/yiquan/e-index.htm
2) http://www.yiquan.com.pl/starteng.html

In the first website, Timo Heikkilä and Li Jiong have translated several excellent articles by the founder, Wang Xiangzhai, and also a book and article by Han Jingyu, son of Han Xingqiao (known as one of Wang's "Four Diamond Warriors" in Shanghai). Some of these are free and others are for sale. To me, they are definitely worth the price considering the time and difficulty they had to translate the pieces. You will also find a Yiquan forum where you can ask all the questions you like.

In the second website, Andrzej Kalisz has produced the most comprehensive website on Yiquan in English that I know of. In it he goes into detail about many aspects of history, theory, training, etc. I think you may find some helpful training tips there at least for this stage of your training. Also available at the site is the first English Yiquan correspondence course that Andrzej is helping his teacher Yao Chengguang to translate from Chinese. Yao Chengguang's father was Yao Zongxun, another of Wang Xiangzhai's best disciples and who was chosen as his main successor prior to his passing.

If you want to talk further, feel free to write me at eightgates@yahoo.com.

Best wishes! :)
Eightgates

[This message was edited by eightgates on 05-11-01 at 04:42 AM.]

origenx
05-10-2001, 07:54 PM
eightgates (or WIMC): What would be good postures (w/descriptions please) for opening up/strengthening the liver and kidney meridians? I've got blockages in my abdominal/2nd chakra area that are weakening these functions I believe - causing nearsightedness, poor digestion, poor detoxification, etc.

woliveri
05-10-2001, 10:33 PM
origenx, I've found the Dragon Spirit or the Tiger Qi Gong from Master Yuan Ming Zhang at:
http://www.qigongmaster.com
to be very useful for a congested liver.

There is no spoon. "The Matrix"
There's a difference between knowing the path and walking the path. "The Matrix"

eightgates
05-11-2001, 02:13 AM
Hi Origenx,

I don't know your background in TCM (Traditional Chinese Medicine) so please excuse me if I say anything you already know, but it does appear that you have at least been exposed to it. I think that we must keep in mind that one of the things about TCM is that it treats the various body systems in a holistic fashion. That implies that although you may be experiencing a liver/kidney inbalance (not that uncommon), there may be other causes dealing with other meridians. For instance you might need to regulate the spleen and/or lung meridian which in turn would affect the kidney meridian which then affects the liver meridian. You may have insufficient "Wei Qi" or "Protective Qi" (this is created from food and beverages and can be enhanced by the abundance of lung-qi) that allowed external pathogenic forces to weaken you internally. Another source of the problem maybe one or more of the seven emotions (excessive joy injures the heart, excessive anger injures the liver, excessive anxiety injures the lungs, obsessive concern injures the spleen, excessive fear injures the kidneys, excessive fright and excessive grief which can affect more than one process). So while you may have made a correct diagnosis for the resulting syptoms, the underlying causes might not be addressed. For this type of diagnosis, I suggest you see a TCM practitioner. They could recommend a proper course of treatment and also help you design any changes in lifestyle to prevent a future relapse.

If a TCM practitioner is unavailable in your area, then I understand your situation. I am flattered by your faith in what I might suggest, but there are too many details to list and I don't feel qualified to comment in depth. I strongly suggest you pick up Master Lam Kam Chuen's book, "The Way of Energy." You should be able to find it at a local bookstore or you can order it from Amazon.com. The exercises you desire can be found there. Start with Postures 1 and 2 to start laying the foundation by removing some of the major obstructions and regulating the flow of qi and blood in your body. Since this covers the entire body, all your meridians and collateral channels will benefit where needed without your conscious attention to any particular one. After a period of time (Master Lam suggests several months) you may find that your problem has been resolved or ameliorated and all you need to do is maintain your zhan zhuang schedule. If you feel you need more of a "boost," you can continue on with the "Eight Brocades of Silk" exercises primarily exercises 1, 3, and 4. I don't need to tell you if you've practised qigong before that a calm peaceful unhurried attitude is needed for better results. Outside of this daily regimen, I would strongly suggest you take a good look at your dietary, sleep, sexual, emotional outlook, and other habits for the root cause of the problem. If the problem was due to improper qigong training, Posture 1 and 2 are excellent for restabilizing the flow of qi.

Another book that you may find helpful is "Qigong Empowerment" by Liang Shou-Yu and Wu Wen-Ching. There are several sections devoted to qigong exercises for the Kidneys and Liver along with contraindications. Prior to doing any of the organ specific exercises, I would recommend the Guan Qi Fa (Qi Permeating Method) he describes on pages 36-40. I learned this many years ago from my late Taijiquan master and it is a wonderful method to add to your qigong practises.

I'm sorry if I didn't answer your question with as much detail as you may have wanted, but I think these masters have expressed their methods much better than I ever could.

Wishing you a speedy recovery,
Eightgates

origenx
05-13-2001, 08:03 PM
woliveri - hmm, but the website doesn't actually talk about how to do the Dragon Spirit or Tiger Qigong. Does he have a book out or anything?

8gates - thanks for the great informative reply. Yes, I know a little about TCM, but not much yet. So, yes, I realize how all the body's "organs" are inter-related and not isolated. So, it's hard to just spot-treat, you almost have to just clear the entire system. Nonethelss, I think I do have blockages in my abdominal region and would thus like to focus on it at least. And btw, I am perfectly healthy by Western definitions, just not by TCM or my own personal standards! Anyways, thanks alot for those resources you mentioned and I will be sure to check them out! Thanks!

woliveri
05-13-2001, 11:47 PM
origenx, Try this:

Stand with your feet shoulder width. Place you right palm at your lower dantien facing up. The fingers of this palm will be pointing left. Place your left palm about 6 inches above the right palm facing down. Like holding a small ball. Now, move the palms in small circles counter clockwise on a horizontal plane while letting your body gently shake as a result of the movement. Breath naturally and relax. Experiment with different speeds and sizes of circles. Try this for a period of time and then change the palms to opposite current position (right on top and left on bottom).

I feel an immediate effect on my liver area.

Also, very important is diet. Reduce fatty, sugary, greasy foods. Steamed vegetables is best but difficult to do for most.

Another exercise is walking at a quick pace for a good period of time (20 min) which cirrulates the blood through the liver.

HTH,

There is no spoon. "The Matrix"
There's a difference between knowing the path and walking the path. "The Matrix"

stonecrusher69
11-22-2004, 08:44 PM
I like to ask anyone if they ever experienced nausea and presure in the lower dan tien during standing meditation?I have been doing some standing mediatation about 40 min a day for a few months and recently felt pressure and some nausea and I think its from the standing.I was just wounding if this is a normal and will it pass if i continue?

SPJ
11-26-2004, 06:25 PM
You probably standing without movement for too long.

The lymphatic backflow from your feet is retarded or your heart is not pumping enough blood to your brain.

It is better to see a family doctor.

Do you practice when you have a big meal or empty stomach?

Standing practices are in stages.

Some would just do 3 to 5 min, then increase to 10 to 15 min, then 25 min. 30 to 45 min need some time to reach the level.

Some would not be able to stand that long without moving.

You may sit in chair instead.

Or take a 2-5 min break inbetween intervals.

stonecrusher69
11-27-2004, 07:12 AM
No I don't practice standing on an empty or full stomach.I did not mention in my last post I stand for 40mins but I do 20min in the morning then 20min at night and some other chi gong as well.in the begining I started at 5min then ever few days in cresed it a little.I'm starting to feel a little better now.Thanks for your help.

SPJ
11-27-2004, 08:21 AM
Cool.

I know it is ironic.

When your posture is right. Such as 2 feet apart about shoulder width. The whole body is relaxed. All you feel is the gravity pull from your feet or rooting.

Wu Ji Zhuang in Tai Ji Quan.

I placed my both hands near Dan Tien.

I feel a whole body pull. I do not resist.

Overtime, the Peng or whole body outward "tension" is developed in standing still practice.

By standing still and focusing on Dan Tien, we are using our whole body to "resist" or withstand the gravitational pulls from our Dan Tian to the whole body and the limbs.

Breathing is natural.

stonecrusher69
12-01-2004, 07:04 PM
I think I practice similiar the same way.When I root myself I put my weight on my heels not on the center of the foot.I feel it helps me to root better.When you do other standing meditation like the one called embracing tree do you focus on your dan tien or on your hands? or limbs? I have heard some say to not focus on your hands or anything and some say that you must have intent when standing.What do you think?

SPJ
12-06-2004, 09:43 PM
This is difficult to explain.

Yes, there is an acupunture point called Yong Quan Xue in the middle of the foot.

Ren and Du Mai are in the mid line of the body. One is at the front and the other is in the back.

They meet at Hui Yin and Bai Hui at the bottom of groins and on the top of the head.

If you stand straight or slightly arched as the nature alignment of the spine, and you are totally relaxed.

The Qi flow thus moves smoothly without obstruction.

This is the purpose of standing practice.

Raising both arms at the level of the shoulder. The palms facing you with 10 cm apart in front of you.

This is called Tai Ji Zhuang.

The shoulders have to relax. The elbows sink a little.

This is the basic posture for Tai Ji Quan.

In the beginning, you clear your mind and totally relax all your muscles.

The neck is relaxed as if suspended. The chest tugs in a little. The back arched a little. As if you are holding a ball with your upper body structure.

They are ready to expand a little.

You focus on your Dan Tian. And just feel the wind.

If you focus on your hands, you may tense your arms.

Feel the Qi flows.

The "tension" or Peng Jin you want to feel is actually from the whole body or upper body plus arms.

The whole and not a point in hands.

And yes, some people would imagine a point between the hands and focus on that. But that would tense your muscles for a lot of people.

SPJ
12-06-2004, 09:46 PM
My brother is better than I in Qi Gong and health.

My knowledge and practice are for martial arts purposes.

stonecrusher69
12-08-2004, 09:31 PM
again thanks for your help and information.do you practice the small circulation qi gong?

fiercest tiger
12-18-2004, 05:37 PM
Great Thread, I am learning the WUn Yuen Kung system and we do 45 minutes a day of standing chi kung set. Now i have felt the sickness and light headed, swaying etc also.

With wun yuen we are natural and dont hum hung round the back and sink the cest because this can put stress on the internal organs and is not a natural posture therefore it goes against the Dao. No thought or intent of anything because this also stops energy and can give you health porblems plus let chi do what it wants just as if you are walking down the street, not thinking just walking. Chi is always there and if you force chi you will never get it!

SPJ,

I like your info alot can u tell me what Zhan Zhang postures give you what types of Ging/jings?

If you know that what be kool!

Cheers
FT

stonecrusher69
12-26-2004, 01:15 PM
the main posture I practice is the tai chi stance.Its hard to say what kind of jing it develope because everytime I practice it's different everytime.as far as not having mindful intent when practicing I don't feel it stops the flow of chi.I don't force it but do use mindful intent.I agree with you about letting the chi go where it wants thats good to do also,but not all chi gong is done that way.

RickMatz
11-30-2005, 07:00 PM
Andrzej Kalisz wrote a book on Zhan Zhuang Qigong, which is available as a free download on his website:

www.yiquan.com.pl

JaguarWarrior
12-04-2005, 01:38 AM
Thanks, I'll look into it.

kung fu fighter
03-25-2010, 07:24 AM
Does anyone have this ebook "Zhan Zhuang & The Search of Wu By Yu Yong Nian – Ebook (210 pages with B&W illus.- 55 000 words):" http://yiquan.chinamartialarts.net/Yu-YN-ebook.html

and would you recomend it ?

SimonM
07-11-2011, 10:09 AM
I won't lie, I have a pretty big problem with standing stake meditation - as fight training. How people choose to stand when meditating really doesn't concern me. However that's not what people pushing Standing Stake claim to be doing.

Here are my reasons why I've got an issue. You'll note that all of this discussion will be couched in rational discourse regarding mechanics of the body. If you can explain without resorting to pseudo-mystical nonsense an error in my reasoning I'll be happy to hear you out.

Counting down:

3) Sensitivity is best trained dynamically.

The proponents of Standing Stake training claim it helps build sensitivity. They point to example of "internal" masters who had their students spend up to a decade standing stake before learning a thing and claim that these students were better for it.

The problem is that in a fight you won't be standing perfectly still. A body in motion has different properties than a body at rest - namely things like velocity and angular momentum. By training sensitivity without considering how body sensitivity is affected by being in motion, and in fact by being in motion when an oppositional force is contending against you, it is training a bad practice for a fighter.

Unless you have no body awareness to begin with (IE: you are too uncoordinated to walk) the ten years of training standing still are ten waisted years.

A novice pugilist with a few months of actual practice boxing, and especially wrestling, will have developed a sensitivity to body position that will include understanding of how dynamic forces work.

The same can not be said for somebody who just practised standing stock-still.

2) Standing still has no combat application. I find the concept behind Standing Stake to be disingenuous. Even with forms, although I think there are more efficient ways to train, there is some attempt to practice a series of movements with specific applications. This is lacking in Standing Stake.

I understand that the founder of Yiquan took the concept of formlessness very seriously. But I have serious reservations about his pedagogical method. If you want to teach somebody not to use specific forms while fighting you show him how the various pieces work, in detail, and then you teach him to identify moments of change and transition so that he can understand to apply the appropriate technique at the appropriate moment. Training formlessness by having the student literally do nothing accomplishes nothing.

1) ELBOW POSITIONING!!!

This is a HUGE beef I have with students of Standing Stake and it is one I can demonstrate easily.

Here's a video of standing stake. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtUKTd2WKsc)

I want you to notice where the elbows are - high and wide.

Now, here's a video of a yiquan player shadow-boxing (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDDVAOItmA0).
And just for good measure, another video of a yiquan player shadow-boxing (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZ6TwS2SARw&feature=related).

Again notice the elbows - they always return to high and wide.

Here is a video of a yiquan player demonstrating push-hand basics. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUpdRcs_4mk&feature=related)

Where are the elbows? High and wide.

This is bad. This is REALLY bad. Why?

Here is why:

Pay attention at 1:39 -if your elbows are sticking out this is very easy to do. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50kWy6FaZKA)

That's not even considering the fact that you are basically opening yourself for unlimited gut-shots with this guard. It's not considering that the width and projection of the arms makes the guard next-to useless for protecting the face. If your elbows are sticking out you are giving them to any decent grappler in any style.

And if they have your elbow they have your back.

If a grappler has your back you are screwed.

From what I have seen of Yiquan (the martial art that makes the widest use of standing stake) the focus on the practice conditions the players to have a high, wide guard.

This is a direct result of spending up to a decade holding their arms high with elbows wide as a key component of training. It is, simply put, training a bad habit.

Oh, yeah, also if your elbows are wide you cut off your arms from your body for power generation on strikes. This explains why so many Yiquan videos seem not to involve the torso at all in power generation, the mechanics of the arms limits them.

David Jamieson
07-11-2011, 10:18 AM
who promotes this as fight training?

That's almost laughable if it wasn't such a bass ackwards application of this simple and otherwise straightforward qigong.

seriously, who tries to make that "fight training"?

SimonM
07-11-2011, 10:22 AM
who promotes this as fight training?

That's almost laughable if it wasn't such a bass ackwards application of this simple and otherwise straightforward qigong.

seriously, who tries to make that "fight training"?

I have had a few people here freak out on me for saying it wasn't fight training recently. :rolleyes:

In fact one person started an entire thread basically complaining that my critique of Yiquan (on these mechanical issues) was unfair.

wenshu
07-11-2011, 10:32 AM
Here's a video of standing stake. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtUKTd2WKsc)


Up to this point we have been woefully bereft of videos demonstrating how to stand still while trying not to think.

Do they have any videos on how to sit still?

SimonM
07-11-2011, 10:33 AM
You'll have to figure that one out for yourself. :cool:

lkfmdc
07-11-2011, 10:35 AM
I have had a few people here freak out on me for saying it wasn't fight training recently. :rolleyes:

In fact one person started an entire thread basically complaining that my critique of Yiquan (on these mechanical issues) was unfair.

this IS the internet, you do realize that :p:D

David Jamieson
07-11-2011, 10:46 AM
I have had a few people here freak out on me for saying it wasn't fight training recently. :rolleyes:

In fact one person started an entire thread basically complaining that my critique of Yiquan (on these mechanical issues) was unfair.

I try not to engage morons for too long in a discussion unless I find it particularly amusing.

After a few interactions, it's not too too hard to determine if someone is a wash or not when it comes to understanding how to train. lol

Scott R. Brown
07-11-2011, 10:50 AM
My problem with "Standing Stake" is there is WAY too much STANDING when there is really NOTHING at STAKE!

I am all for BURNING AT THE STAKE, however!

MightyB
07-11-2011, 10:52 AM
I'm getting to the age where I'm thinking about taking up standing on stake training. I also wish there was a legit Chen Tai Chi Sifu near me that I could go to too.

I don't have much desire to get punched in the face anymore, and I don't care what the rest of you think but getting kicked in the thighs hurts.

SimonM
07-11-2011, 10:54 AM
I've got no problem with standing meditation.

David Jamieson
07-11-2011, 10:54 AM
I find it to be nice and relaxing and it feels good in the hips and back when I do zhangzhuan.

I don't often do the hug the tree posture.
I do the palms at sides facing back with "enough space for a quail egg under my arm". :)

It's really got naught to do with fighting. I guess it's possible that someone is rounding out their curriculum due to a lack of fight training? I mean, who does standing still to learn the incredible dynamic of beating the crap out of someone and trying to keep yourself from being the one who gets the crap beaten out of them.

there's nothing gentlemanly about fighting either. It's just dirty business and it's good to have these skills when you cannot use diplomacy.

TenTigers
07-11-2011, 10:55 AM
personally, I don't stand very long, just 5-10 minutes, certainly not an hour and I certainly don't see it as necessary or beneficial to do it for a year before learning anything else.
But I do feel it is beneficial to helping one develop body awareness. When you are standing, you feel your body alignment, and make subtle corrections. Just when you think you are aligned, and in balance, you feel another part not quite right, and correct that. This goes on for quite a while.
I think it's good training, especially for beginners. Too often, I say, "Point your feet forward," and of course, they have to look down at their feet first. They cannot feel that their feet are turning out. If they cannot feel this simple thing, then they certainly cannot feel other parts that are out of alignment-such as elbows, hips, etc.

David Jamieson
07-11-2011, 10:57 AM
personally, I don't stand very long, just 5-10 minutes, certainly not an hour and I certainly don't see it as necessary or beneficial to do it for a year before learning anything else.
But I do feel it is beneficial to helping one develop body awareness. When you are standing, you feel your body alignment, and make subtle corrections. Just when you think you are aligned, and in balance, you feel another part not quite right, and correct that. This goes on for quite a while.
I think it's good training, especially for beginners. Too often, I say, "Point your feet forward," and of course, they have to look down at their feet first. They cannot feel that their feet are turning out. If they cannot feel this simple thing, then they certainly cannot feel other parts that are out of alignment-such as elbows, hips, etc.

*cha ching*.... and here's your free cigar sir.

Scott R. Brown
07-11-2011, 11:04 AM
My job involves a lot of standing! It makes my feet hurt!

I prefer laying down meditation!

bawang
07-11-2011, 11:09 AM
this is like someone doing bicep curls and complain weight training doesnt improve your punching power.

do standing post with a 40 pound weight vest.

YouKnowWho
07-11-2011, 11:14 AM
When people said that, "standing are considered the most reliable way of generating power using the body", I truly don't know what that person was talking about. :(

There are so many valuable training in TCMA. Standing just not the most effective way to spend your training time in it.

Scott R. Brown
07-11-2011, 11:20 AM
When people said that, "standing are considered the most reliable way of generating power using the body", I truly don't know what that person was talking about. :(

Neither do they!

bawang
07-11-2011, 11:21 AM
There are so many valuable training in TCMA. Standing just not the most effective way to spend your training time in it.
standing post is great. its trains tolerance for pain and increase leg endurance.

YouKnowWho
07-11-2011, 11:22 AM
If you can spend your training time to hit a heavy bag then why do you want to stand there like an idiot? IMO, the standing is worse than the solo form training. At least when you train solo form, you are hitting the thin air. When you stand, you are not even hit anything.

bawang
07-11-2011, 11:30 AM
because after hitting a heavy bag for one hour your hands are tired, and you can train other things.

Lucas
07-11-2011, 11:31 AM
I mostly use public transit. sometimes my bus wait is for 10-20 minutes. sometimes i do standing at that time, instead of nothing at all or being tired and waiting. or sometimes i even do standing at work, when i have no work to do. it is really the only kind of training i can do at certain times is just standing. if it was acceptable to fight people or use a heavy bag at work or at the bus stop, i would. haha

i think this is a good time for standing, when you have nothing else you can do.

also if you have to stand out in the winter, simple standing will keep your whole body warm easily.

bawang
07-11-2011, 11:32 AM
put a 100 pound barbell on your back and sink down into a fighting stance. if you find it useless after that then your opinion has merit.

i know you got weights john wang. why dont you try it right now if you are not busy? in 20 minutes tell me what you think.

TenTigers
07-11-2011, 11:35 AM
I do it as part of my morning "Tao Yoga" routine: 5 minutes standing, then a few exercises from Dao Yin and Eight Pieces Brocade, followed by Sun salutation and seated stretches, ending with about 10 min. lying meditation.
I also do it before doing my Tai Chi set. I find it's a great way to set myself up mentally and physically for such practices.
For fighting? no.

YouKnowWho
07-11-2011, 11:37 AM
There are some stands that are much harder to train and you will get great benefit out of it.

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/600/13taibo5.jpg/

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/802/13tbzz.jpg/

TenTigers
07-11-2011, 11:37 AM
If you can spend your training time to hit a heavy bag then why do you want to stand there like an idiot? .
I don't. It so happens that when I stand, I stand quite intelligently.

bawang
07-11-2011, 11:39 AM
There are some stands that are much harder to train and you will get great benefit out of it.

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/600/13taibo5.jpg/

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/802/13tbzz.jpg/ok, i am free today and i will try doing what you showed in your photo right now. you should also try what i said and stand post with a barbell on your back. tell me what you think in 20 minutes.

YouKnowWho
07-11-2011, 11:46 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtUKTd2WKsc

I just don't see to "stand on 2 feet in high stance" can give you much combat benefit at all.

I would rather to stand like this.

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/718/chang13tb.jpg/

wenshu
07-11-2011, 11:49 AM
Zhan Zhuang is great because it only takes a few minutes and it doesn't trigger a burdensome recovery need; you can practice it everyday. Trains pain tolerance, breath control, leg/hip strength, flexibility and if held deep enough while stressing absolutely perfect posture it also works the core extensively.

YouKnowWho
07-11-2011, 11:50 AM
ok, i am free today and i will try doing what you showed in your photo right now. you should also try what i said and stand post with a barbell on your back. tell me what you think in 20 minutes.

Those 2 stances can help you to "enhance" your "shin bit", "outer hook". To stand post with a barbell on my back is not going to help me to "enhance" any of my combat skills.

If I care for "health" only, I'll do my 4 miles running.

bawang
07-11-2011, 11:54 AM
hi, i just tried the postures you showed, i find they are good for balance.

now you should try standing post: go in low horse stance with a barbell on your back.

i tried what you said, now you should try what i said, otherwise you are just taling out of your ass.

David Jamieson
07-11-2011, 11:54 AM
Please explain how it trains pain tolerance when it is painless?

Lucas
07-11-2011, 11:57 AM
when i do my high standing i do it two ways. one rocked all the way back onto my heals to the point of balance and maintain that the whole time. expand, contract, up, down, left and right. activating the muscles constantly. the other i stand on the balls of my feet with the same movement emphasis while standing. the third is combat stance.

for instance when i do step forward straight or cross punch, classic western boxer style. the muscles in the legs used are the same muscles i actively work while standing in my legs. in what i was taught, the key is not to be static. ever. never be completely still. you must be doing cardiovascular exersize the whole time while you stand. if you jsut stand there still, you are doing it wrong. by the way i was taught to stand. so i think there can be benefit, even if ever so slight. but while i stand at work or for the bus. at least i can get some benefits.

Lucas
07-11-2011, 11:57 AM
Please explain how it trains pain tolerance when it is painless?

haha. i will dare you to come to gregory fong for 1 free class and ask him that. i think there are many different ways of 'standing'

bawang
07-11-2011, 11:59 AM
stance training is a fundamental kung fu skill. traditional kung fu. if you guys dont want to do it you have a problem.

instead of talking out of your asses, put a barbell on your back, or wear a weight vest, and do stance training, then give your opinion.

wenshu
07-11-2011, 12:04 PM
Please explain how it trains pain tolerance when it is painless?

Horse stance is painless?


Christ, Jim'son. . .

rett
07-11-2011, 12:04 PM
Zhan Zhuang is nice to do if your knees are sore and you still want to train but don't want twisting movements for a few days. Older you get the more you appreciate a softer more natural rhythm IMO.

I don't really understand the point of the original poster. Of course it's not "fight training". But what about Mohammad Ali skipping rope before a fight? It's not fight training, but in another way it is. Skipping rope is good for you. Meditation is good for you. Anything that's good for you is good for you.

Besides either you trust your teacher or you don't. If you trust your teacher, do what he or she says. If you don't, go somewhere else.

bawang
07-11-2011, 12:08 PM
standing post means standing on a wooden post

http://www.gaopu.com/g/isicyuukou.jpg

wenshu
07-11-2011, 12:09 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtUKTd2WKsc

I just don't see to "stand on 2 feet in high stance" can give you much combat benefit at all.

I would rather to stand like this.


http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg718/scaled.php?server=718&filename=chang13tb.jpg&res=medium

That is a great one.

Also, chaotiandeng.

http://www.masteringwushu.com/images/chaotiandeng.jpg

Lucas
07-11-2011, 12:09 PM
i dont like boxes

David Jamieson
07-11-2011, 12:10 PM
Horse stance is painless?


Christ, Jim'son. . .


Standing post isn't horse stance, certainly not sei ping dai ma type of horse stance.

It's upright in almost all instances and variations, and then someone wants to be different so they start doing stances for a long time such as you are saying, like horse stance or empty leg etc.

That's not standing post, that's halfway between getting good stances and too much time in them which is not very useful either.

The best way to work stances and positioning is to get the shape, set it, then start putting forces against it.

bawang
07-11-2011, 12:11 PM
Standing post isn't horse stance, certainly not sei ping dai ma type of horse stance.

It's upright in almost all instances and variations

high post is for weak and frail people, medium post is for beginners, and low post is for strong people.

the lower the post is the faster you gain qi.

Lucas
07-11-2011, 12:15 PM
high post is for weak and frail people, medium post is for beginners, and low post is for strong people.

the lower the post is the faster you gain qi.

if you tell your teacher that standing high is too easy you just get to go lower...and if thats too easy, you just get to add more weight. lesson: never tell your teacher anything is easy.

bawang
07-11-2011, 12:16 PM
advanced stance training involves using weights. standing on the wooden posts which are only 2/3 the size of your feet engages your cores for stability.

Lucas
07-11-2011, 12:17 PM
advanced stance training involves using weights. standing on the wooden posts which are only 2/3 the size of your feet engages your cores for stability.

you can use free standing blocks too. you control not to send them falling. and you have to jump up onto them without knocking them down before you can start.

YouKnowWho
07-11-2011, 12:22 PM
Anything that's good for you is good for you.

There are a lot of things that are good for our body. the question is do we have time to train everything? What's the most effective way to spend our training time? If we repeat groin kick, face punch drill for 2 hours (or just hip throw drill), even in slow motion, will it be better than just "stand there like an idiot"?

bawang
07-11-2011, 12:24 PM
. the question is do we have time to train everything?

yes. you have plenty of time. if you just try it and stand in a low horse stance with weight vest, or a barbell you will not last 5 minutes. instead of just giving baseless opinion give it a try. i tried what you said, it was good balance training. why dont you try what i said? what are you afraid of?

David Jamieson
07-11-2011, 12:28 PM
I think you guys are mixing up stance training regimen with qigong regimen.

they're different things.

David Jamieson
07-11-2011, 12:29 PM
yes. you have plenty of time. if you just try it and stand in a low horse stance with weight vest, or a barbell you will not last 5 minutes. instead of just giving baseless opinion give it a try. i tried what you said, it was good balance training. why dont you try what i said? what are you afraid of?

why not do plyometrics instead?

static stance training has very little return on investment.

I've tried both of what you guys are doing and each is limited in what it brings to fighting skill.

bawang
07-11-2011, 12:29 PM
nope. they are one and the same. in northern kung fu horse stance training involves abdominal breathing and visualization of qi.




I've tried both of what you guys are doing and each is limited in what it brings to fighting skill.

traing "gongs" take time. slapping bags for one day isnt gonna give you iron palm.

why not do plyometrics instead?



stance itraining, static and moving, is for stability , correct structure and endurance. squats is for training strength.

wenshu
07-11-2011, 12:32 PM
I think you guys are mixing up stance training regimen with qigong regimen.

they're different things.

No Jamie Davidson

rett
07-11-2011, 12:32 PM
There are a lot of things that are good for our body. the question is do we have time to train everything? What's the most effective way to spend our training time? If we repeat groin kick, face punch drill for 2 hours (or just hip throw drill), even in slow motion, will it be better than just "stand there like an idiot"?

I totally agree with you about time constraints. I think the best mix of training will change over the course of your life and maybe even from one day to the next. Take care of your body and mind and strive to find a balance. Sometimes standing still can be the right balance.

There's a famous dressage rider from Finland. Every time she rides, even with super professional horses, she goes through the most basic things first. Start, stop, stand, walk, turn left, turn right. Many riders skip that stuff, feel it's too simple and they're being "like an idiot". But Kyra's one of the absolute best and she recommends basics basics basics. I feel like I always need to keep checking in with basics from time to time, like returning to stances.

David Jamieson
07-11-2011, 12:36 PM
nope. they are one and the same. in northern kung fu horse stance training involves abdominal breathing and visualization of qi. horse stance on a post is "zhan zhuang". horse stance on the ground is "di peng".

All of it amounts to nothing though apparently. It doesn't seem to be putting out strong armies, killer fighters, competitive winners and seems to rather promote a lot of hippies arguing the merits of fighting based off of just standing there thinking about the cosmos?

See, this is the stuff of Kung Fu that I have no time for. Just a bunch of crap that can't be and never has been substantiated as anything really all that useful beyond beginner level bodywork and body awareness and conditioning to move forward into actual real and hard work.

want to have better cardio? Do better cardio exercises. Want to bulk up? eat, lift heavy do low reps, want to buff up? eat right do high reps low weight, want to be a fighter? Fight?
want to be a kung fu guy? Live your life like a kung fu guy.

there is a whole lot of made up utter crap in the largest systems of martial arts. the bigger the style the more crap it has in it apparently.

To the point where people are misapplying the darn teachings in many instances.

Stressing the body for the sake of stressing it isn't really an effective workout. If you cannot articulate and demonstrate the real benefits of something, then it is not likely that there is depth of understanding of that thing.

Cryptic mystical **** does nothing for the forwarding of martial arts.

wenshu
07-11-2011, 12:38 PM
why not do plyometrics instead?

static stance training has very little return on investment.

I've tried both of what you guys are doing and each is limited in what it brings to fighting skill.
Jamie Davidson;

Plyometrics require a relatively huge amount of recovery time. You can only safely perform concentrated plyometric training 2 maybe 3 times a week.

Static strength elements can be practiced everyday, have a low recovery burden, only take minutes and has a great return on investment. It is painful and boring and requires diligence and motivation, you can't practice like a dilettante and expect results.

YouKnowWho
07-11-2011, 12:39 PM
why dont you try what i said? what are you afraid of?

I'm not afraid of that. It's just I know at least 100 different training methods that can give me more benefit than the one that you have described. My problem is not that I run out of training idea. My problem is I want to train so many things that I just don't have time to train them all.

I prefer to do these instead of the one that you are talking about.

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/821/doubleheads.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/844/singleheadlegtwist.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/717/singleheadleglift.jpg/

If you have 20 wifes and when someone asks you to go to a whor* house with him, will you go?

bawang
07-11-2011, 12:40 PM
See, this is the stuff of Kung Fu that I have no time for. Just a bunch of crap that can't be and never has been substantiated as anything really all that useful beyond beginner level bodywork and body awareness and conditioning to move forward into actual real and hard work.


standing and moving in fighting stance with 100 pounds on your back isnt hard work? has no purpose?

sounds like its just not in your chinatown kung fu comfort zone. doesnt give you any special warm feelings, just pain.

bawang
07-11-2011, 12:42 PM
I'm not afraid of that. It's just I know at least 100 different training methods that can give me more benefit than the one that you have described.
this is basic songshan shaolin training. you are just biased toward shuai jiao and dont want to give it a try. you dont want to learn and you just like to hear yourself talk.


If you have 20 wifes and when someone asks you to go to a whor* house with him, will you go?

yes.

David Jamieson
07-11-2011, 12:43 PM
Jamie Davidson;

Plyometrics require a relatively huge amount of recovery time. You can only safely perform concentrated plyometric training 2 maybe 3 times a week.

Static strength elements can be practiced everyday, have a low recovery burden, only take minutes and has a great return on investment. It is painful and boring and requires diligence and motivation, you can't practice like a dilettante and expect results.

On point 1 - any decent workout will require recovery. try to think like this, the workout is the architect and the rest is the builder. No rest? You build nothing. Rest is part oft he equation it is key to stop and rest.

On point 2- fine, I agree, I don't agree they offer anything valuable though. Static stance training for the most part has little ROI and little value to martial ability.

I make no apologies for that and I have done it! For years! If you like it, fine. lol, I still say you are wasting time that you could spend developing actual useful skills and tools.

Static stance is for beginners. If you cannot hold your horse long enough to do what you need to do in a conflict, then you have failed.

David Jamieson
07-11-2011, 12:43 PM
standing and moving in fighting stance with 100 pounds on your back isnt hard work? has no purpose?

sounds like its just not in your chinatown kung fu comfort zone. doesnt give you any special warm feelings, just pain.

It' s bullsh1t ineffective method for developing the attribute you are seeking.

well not fully ineffective, but totally irrelevant and ineffective when compared to actually working out with someone, actually sparring, actually wrestling etc. You'll get more development out of 20 minutes of wrestling than you will get out of the antiquated malarky you are advocating.

bawang
07-11-2011, 12:44 PM
you defend mystical bs like iron palm but look down on basic bread and butter kung fu trainig. i no understands.

you call it useless then you say you train kung fu for spirituality. does not compute

rett
07-11-2011, 12:44 PM
All of it amounts to nothing though apparently. It doesn't seem to be putting out strong armies, killer fighters, competitive winners

Fighting isn't very important anymore, you know, because of guns. The kung fu army in enter the dragon is pretty laughable really. If you're a bouncer, okay.


has been substantiated as anything really all that useful beyond beginner level bodywork and body awareness and conditioning to move forward into actual real and hard work.

Suppose standing is just preparatory basics. There you have a very useful function for it already. Basics are important.

And there can be times in your training and health rhythm when you want to return to basics for a while. Pretty natural and simple really.


If you cannot articulate and demonstrate the real benefits of something, then it is not likely that there is depth of understanding of that thing.

Suppose standing mostly works as Qigong or meditation. That's good for your physical and mental health. Good physical and mental health will help your other training and your athletic abilities including fighting if you think fighting is worth doing.

David Jamieson
07-11-2011, 12:49 PM
you defend mystical bs like iron palm but look down on basic bread and butter kung fu trainig. i no understands.


there's nothing mystical about iron palm.

go get hit by someone who has developed it and come back and tell me you think it's mystical crap. lol

your idea of basic bread and butter kung fu is fine, for a fat women who is starting out.

At this point you should be beyond all that basic stuff and have a regimen that maintains your strength and attributes, not buck beginner development for gawky unaware newbs. This is BS.

Functional strength development through active work with others and resistance training that is around the attributes you require? Yes.

Functional Cardio vascular development around what it is you want to do as far as fighting attributes go? Yes.

pretending that stressing the body without attribute development is useful?
lol, gtfo.

bawang
07-11-2011, 12:50 PM
There are a lot of things that are good for our body. the question is do we have time to train everything? What's the most effective way to spend our training time? If we repeat groin kick, face punch drill for 2 hours (or just hip throw drill), even in slow motion, will it be better than just "stand there like an idiot"?

john wang, i might have joked before, but i never seriously critisize or insult shuai jiao. because i dont train shuai jiao.

if you dont train standing post then dont talk out your ass. its not like this is some obscure difficult thing to do. you can easily try it out for yourself then give a REAL feedback.



At this point you should be beyond all that basic stuff and have a regimen that maintains your strength and attributes, not buck beginner development for gawky unaware newbs. This is BS.

i squat for leg strength. i still train standing post with weight vest for endurance and rooting. because its traditional kung fu training and i train kung fu.

YouKnowWho
07-11-2011, 12:54 PM
this is basic songshan shaolin training. you are just biased toward shuai jiao and dont want to give it a try. you dont want to learn and you just like to hear yourself talk.

My learning period is over. I'll be happy if I can just do a decent daily "maintenance" job.

bawang
07-11-2011, 12:57 PM
My learning period is over.

you memorize japanese words and talk about judo, even though you never trained judo. i think you have a problem of liking to critisize what you dont train.

donjitsu2
07-11-2011, 12:59 PM
After a few interactions, it's not too too hard to determine if someone is a wash or not when it comes to understanding how to train. lol

Exactly.

Simon brings up some good points, but I don't think he's entirely accurate either.


I've been a practitioner of Zhan Zhuang for over ten years and the practice was never initially taught to me as "fight training", nor where the postures ever taught as "fighting stances".

I'm not gonna argue that there are people out there who present the practice in such a way - because clearly they do. But they're idiots who've never been in a fight so their opinion doesn't matter :D

I actually feel like the practice is very worthwhile for fighters because of the isometric-holding aspects (think "wall sits"), the healing aspects (active rest heals, baby!), and the meditative aspects (focus and being calm under pressure is useful).

Like I said earlier though, you bring up good points:

1. The Zhan Zhuang postures aren't fighting postures.

2. Too much Zhan Zhuang is detrimental to your training. (Couldn't agree more. A fighter needs to...you know...fight)


Like Davigd Jaymeisom ( ;) ) said it isn't fight training it's just a qigong.


Train Hard,

Josh Skinner

YouKnowWho
07-11-2011, 12:59 PM
if you dont train standing post then dont talk out your ass.
Have you trained "Chinese torture chair" that you touch your back on the wall and keep your upper leg to be parallel to the ground? If you have done that then what kind of challenge will you have by "standing on both feet in high posture like an idiot"?

bawang
07-11-2011, 01:00 PM
Have you trained "Chinese torture chair" that you touch your back on the wall and keep your upper leg to be parallel to the ground? If you have done that then what kind of challenge will you have by "standing on both feet in high posture like an idiot"?

if high posture is too easy go lower. if low is too easy put weights on your back. if 100 pounds on your back is too easy use slow abdominal breathing.

wenshu
07-11-2011, 01:00 PM
On point 1 - any decent workout will require recovery. try to think like this, the workout is the architect and the rest is the builder. No rest? You build nothing. Rest is part oft he equation it is key to stop and rest.

you.
don't.
****ing.
say.

My point (for the third time) is that static strength attributes done submaximally require little to no recovery and can be practiced everyday and even concurrently with maximal dynamic work sets.


On point 2- fine, I agree, I don't agree they offer anything valuable though. Static stance training for the most part has little ROI and little value to martial ability.

Static stance is for beginners. If you cannot hold your horse long enough to do what you need to do in a conflict, then you have failed.

Horse stance is for training not fighting.

YouKnowWho
07-11-2011, 01:03 PM
if high posture is too easy go lower. if low is too easy put weights on your back. if 100 pounds on your back is too easy use slow abdominal breathing.

A fighter needs to...you know...fight ...

- Running is better than walking.
- Walking is better than standing.
- Standing is better than sitting.
- Sitting is better than laying down.
- Laying down is better than to be dead.

Don't let our MMA friends to tell us that "standing" is just another TCMA BS. You can't stand there and expect your opponent to drop to dead and that's for sure.

bawang
07-11-2011, 01:04 PM
......its training. traditional training. you really arent making sense, man.

wenshu
07-11-2011, 01:06 PM
there's nothing mystical about iron palm.

go get hit by someone who has developed it and come back and tell me you think it's mystical crap. lol

your idea of basic bread and butter kung fu is fine, for a fat women who is starting out.

At this point you should be beyond all that basic stuff and have a regimen that maintains your strength and attributes, not buck beginner development for gawky unaware newbs. This is BS.

Functional strength development through active work with others and resistance training that is around the attributes you require? Yes.

Functional Cardio vascular development around what it is you want to do as far as fighting attributes go? Yes.

pretending that stressing the body without attribute development is useful?
lol, gtfo.

By your own logic, iron palm is useless because it merely conditions the hand without developing the necessary skills to apply that conditioning.

Not every single form of conditioning is going to be completely functional. "Functional training" is a ridiculous fad.

How is developing strength within an increased range of motion of the hips a non functional attribute?

Real gong fu is basic. The higher the level, the more basic it becomes.

donjitsu2
07-11-2011, 01:08 PM
......its training. traditional training.

i think you guys dont like it because its painful and tough training. you guys are cowerds. scares.


IDK, bawang.....lactic acid build-up burns. Plus I don't like having my will power tested.

+1

:p

bawang
07-11-2011, 01:08 PM
i think its because a lot of white people never felt so much pain in their lives. not annoyance or discomfort. real tangible pain.

the sensation is not as painful as when i broke my leg, but came really close.

sanjuro_ronin
07-11-2011, 01:09 PM
This thread needs a Miyagi moment !
http://www.fast-rewind.com/kkid/beach5.jpg

sanjuro_ronin
07-11-2011, 01:11 PM
This is what poles are for
http://poleskivvies.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/Caterina-Gennaro2-323x500.jpg

David Jamieson
07-11-2011, 01:12 PM
you.
don't.
****ing.
say. I do. It didn't appear you understood that with your statement about it.


My point (for the third time) is that static strength attributes done submaximally require little to no recovery and can be practiced everyday and even concurrently with maximal dynamic work sets. And mine was that ultimately, what you are advocating is a waste of time beyond a very beginner modality of understanding. A true waste of time. You can refine your attributes through real work. Standing at your stage? You're lazy and don't want to do a real workout. lol



Horse stance is for training not fighting.
Horse stance is beginner training. It serves no purpose other than to take someone who is a buck newb and make them understand they are weak and need to work on their bodies. lol.

People who hold horse stance for long periods of time are mostly to lazy to do the work of getting good at martial arts. This has value at the beginning of the curve and no value once you are heading to the top of the bell.

NO moderate to advanced Kung Fu practitioner that actually has some fighting skeelz will bother with static stance training. They don't need it, it is not required anymore because they should have even more useful stuff to progress with.

If you are constantly revisiting basics you are ripping yourself off. Occasional? sure. regularly? Waste of time you could be spending on something else

bawang
07-11-2011, 01:12 PM
can u not do that sanjuro, i dont like surprise boners.

sanjuro_ronin
07-11-2011, 01:12 PM
http://gallery.photo.net/photo/6832386-md.jpg

sanjuro_ronin
07-11-2011, 01:13 PM
can u not do that sanjuro, i dont like surprise boners.

Saving up to be a Taoist eh?

bawang
07-11-2011, 01:13 PM
my boss at work is a muslim woman.



People who hold horse stance for long periods of time are mostly to lazy to do the work of getting good at martial arts. This has value at the beginning of the curve and no value once you are heading to the top of the bell.


if its too easy for you put a barbell on your back.

i dont understand how u can talk about spirituality and all that bullsh1t, and basically spit on the basic aspects of kung fu.

i want to tell you and john wang that there are aspects of stance training beyond the horse stance, but its pointless. i shouldnt have to explain this.

sounds like your teachers used horse stance as a way to punish you , test you, and humiliate you, instead of using it as proper training, and it brings up your bad memories.

wenshu
07-11-2011, 01:17 PM
Have you trained "Chinese torture chair" that you touch your back on the wall and keep your upper leg to be parallel to the ground? If you have done that then what kind of challenge will you have by "standing on both feet in high posture like an idiot"?

Wang Shifu; horse stance is very basic to shuai jiao conditioning.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGtAaW6L8Ws&feature=related

bawang
07-11-2011, 01:18 PM
but thats not in the "wrestling king" tv show.

David Jamieson
07-11-2011, 01:18 PM
my boss at work is a muslim woman.


if its too easy for you put a barbell on your back.

i dont understand how u can talk about spirituality and all that bullsh1t, and basically spit on the basic aspects of kung fu.

please show where I talk about spirituality in relation to training? WTF are you going on about? lol. Spirituality? I don't do spirituality, it's flaky. YOu either believe in God an dpractice a religious effort to affirm that, or you don't. Period. No flaky angel cake esoteric hoo haa for this cat. I'm pretty black and white with my god stuff. lol

You seem to think that basics are the bread and butter of kung fu. They are only the starting point.

putting weight onto an already useless exercise will help how?

It's really hard to push on a building. WTF is the point of it? NOTHING.

Piling weight on yourself? Ok, to a certain point there is value, but after a certain point where you cannot function, the ROI goes away.

You need to understand the law of diminishing returns. You have to progress, you have to leave your baby bottle behind and move on to eating the steak and potatoes man.

If you stick to basics all the time and do solo work all the time you are not doing martial arts development, you are vacillating and wasting time. :)

sanjuro_ronin
07-11-2011, 01:18 PM
Static training is a different type and it serves its purpose in a different way than kinetic and isokinetic training.
Not a case of better or either/or, just different.

wenshu
07-11-2011, 01:23 PM
I do. It didn't appear you understood that with your statement about it.

And mine was that ultimately, what you are advocating is a waste of time beyond a very beginner modality of understanding. A true waste of time. You can refine your attributes through real work. Standing at your stage? You're lazy and don't want to do a real workout. lol



Horse stance is beginner training. It serves no purpose other than to take someone who is a buck newb and make them understand they are weak and need to work on their bodies. lol.

People who hold horse stance for long periods of time are mostly to lazy to do the work of getting good at martial arts. This has value at the beginning of the curve and no value once you are heading to the top of the bell.

NO moderate to advanced Kung Fu practitioner that actually has some fighting skeelz will bother with static stance training. They don't need it, it is not required anymore because they should have even more useful stuff to progress with.

If you are constantly revisiting basics you are ripping yourself off. Occasional? sure. regularly? Waste of time you could be spending on something else

Straight back, thighs parallel to the ground horse stance is lazy? I am sorry Jamie Davidson, I forget you are the true kung fu hero genius Pai Mei.

bawang
07-11-2011, 01:23 PM
its traditional training. you guys havent heard of it, so its not in your comfort zone, seems weird. squatting toilet stance is ok, but putting on weights as part of the traditional training progress feels "off" to you.

wenshu
07-11-2011, 01:23 PM
Static training is a different type and it serves its purpose in a different way than kinetic and isokinetic training.
Not a case of better or either/or, just different.

Complimentary even.

David Jamieson
07-11-2011, 01:26 PM
Straight back, thighs parallel to the ground horse stance is lazy? I am sorry Jamie Davidson, I forget you are the true kung fu hero genius Pai Mei.

It's ok, I keep forgetting your a snobby opinionated jerk with a chinese superiority complex about kung fu. :rolleyes:

keep training like you train I guess. no sweat off my ass that you wanna skip and jump like a fairy and can't generate a punch worth sh1t. :p

sanjuro_ronin
07-11-2011, 01:27 PM
Complimentary even.

Indeed.
One can argue that since here are 3 types of strength, static being one of them, that unless all are trained that ST is incomplete.

TenTigers
07-11-2011, 01:27 PM
i think its because a lot of white people never felt so much pain in their lives. not annoyance or discomfort. real tangible pain.
.
I once took Konsul (psyllium fiber) without enough water. I was in real pain for hours..until I drank some water and went to bathroom.

Another time I took antibiotics on an empty stomach. I was having abdominal painful contractions for hours. I thought I was going to give birth.
I know pain, man!

bawang
07-11-2011, 01:27 PM
i squat. i punch bags. i still train stance training with weights because it makes my footwork very solid.

i dont do push hands because its useless. i find stance training with weights very useful.

just give it a try guys.


I once took Konsul (psyllium fiber) without enough water. I was in real pain for hours..until I drank some water and went to bathroom.

Another time I took antibiotics on an empty stomach. I was having abdominal painful contractions for hours. I thought I was going to give birth.
I know pain, man!

thats nothing. one time i caught the norovirus that causes extreme diarrhea, except on that day i also ate lots of chipotle spicy nuts. my anus closed up and i was intense pain for 8 hours, and i was praying to god for a merciful death.

David Jamieson
07-11-2011, 01:31 PM
Wang Shifu; horse stance is very basic to shuai jiao conditioning.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGtAaW6L8Ws&feature=related

dude, that is NOT static!

wenshu
07-11-2011, 01:31 PM
It's ok, I keep forgetting your a snobby opinionated jerk with a chinese superiority complex about kung fu. :rolleyes:

I resemble that remark.


keep training like you train I guess. no sweat off my ass that you wanna skip and jump like a fairy and can't generate a punch worth sh1t. :p Haha, I know, I can't fight for ****.

Yeah, static strength is totally useless and ineffective.
http://images.wikia.com/athletics/images/5/53/Jovtchev_jordan.jpg


http://static7.businessinsider.com/image/4b94d0b07f8b9afa1a590000/gym-gymnastic-rings.jpg

http://0.tqn.com/d/gymnastics/1/0/N/5/-/-/CHenYibing08RingsCliveBrunskillGETTY82400104.jpg

bawang
07-11-2011, 01:32 PM
stance training is not just static in toilet stance. you progress further, bro. i just dont want to explain nuiance of every single step of beginner training. i know its relatively unknown type of training in the south but keep an open mind, man.

TenTigers
07-11-2011, 01:32 PM
there are differnt types of standing stake Jahm Johng.
You can simply stand
you can embrace tree and do micro and macrocosmic orbit
you can embrace tree and do guided visualizations to open up chakras
you can do san ti shi, or other posture to develop structural alignment, and solidify it so you can maintain proper structure when fighting. In SPM, we stand in stance with beggar's hands in front of incense. These are just to ingrain the structures.
there are countless more.
Not just for strength. Bawang is correct-if I want leg strangth, I do squats. If I want to connect my strength, I do jahm johng.

David Jamieson
07-11-2011, 01:33 PM
i think its because a lot of white people never felt so much pain in their lives. not annoyance or discomfort. real tangible pain.

the sensation is not as painful as when i broke my leg, but came really close.

You're an idiot for saying this. :p

You have no idea what people endure and race has little or rather nothing to do with individual experience of physical pain.

wenshu
07-11-2011, 01:35 PM
dude, that is NOT static!

I didn't say the shuai jiao conditioning example was static just that it uses horse stance. Although the xiao bangzi and da bangzi exercises are technically static horse stance.

bawang
07-11-2011, 01:36 PM
there are differnt types of standing stake Jahm Johng.
You can simply stand
you can embrace tree and do micro and macrocosmic orbit
you can embrace tree and do guided visualizations to open up chakras
you can do san ti shi, or other posture to develop structural alignment, and solidify it so you can maintain proper structure when fighting. In SPM, we stand in stance with beggar's hands in front of incense. These are just to ingrain the structures.
there are countless more.
Not just for strength. Bawang is correct-if I want leg strangth, I do squats. If I want to connect my strength, I do jahm johng.

you are 100% right ten tigers. finally someone speaks sense, and not just want to promote their own school on the internet. you are indeed a man of honor. not as much as mighty david ross, but close.

friendship knuckle touch

David Jamieson
07-11-2011, 01:37 PM
I resemble that remark.

Haha, I know, I can't fight for ****.

Yeah, static strength is totally useless and ineffective.
http://images.wikia.com/athletics/images/5/53/Jovtchev_jordan.jpg


http://static7.businessinsider.com/image/4b94d0b07f8b9afa1a590000/gym-gymnastic-rings.jpg

http://0.tqn.com/d/gymnastics/1/0/N/5/-/-/CHenYibing08RingsCliveBrunskillGETTY82400104.jpg

...and that's martial how?
that will help you to become a better kung fu person how?

admit it, you're lazy and you're scrared to fight and that's why you stick with the cryptic BS and hide behind your chinese superiority complex around kung fu.

I can't believe you post gymnastic shots to support an argument on the validity of the training in a martial environment.

Maybe that's because you CAN'T show an actual martial value to it. lol

No wait, that's exactly why. :rolleyes:

bawang
07-11-2011, 01:38 PM
...and that's martial how?
that will help you to become a better kung fu person how?

george saint pierre trains it.

AHA I GOT YOU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLbDRoBUehU&feature=relmfu

I WIN

David Jamieson
07-11-2011, 01:42 PM
george saint pierre trains it.

AHA I GOT YOU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLbDRoBUehU&feature=relmfu

I WIN

again, idiocy. He uses rings. Do you know what he's doing? He's doing a crossfit exercise called "muscle ups" and that has little if anything to do with a maltese cross or the use of the rings in an olympic competition setting.

Muscle ups are just good hard work and when you use rings, because of the instability of them, it forces you to be very strong in your core.

I would reiterate, this has NOTHING to do with standing in a horse stance with weight on you. NOTHING.

bawang
07-11-2011, 01:44 PM
thats what the posts are for. they are only 1/3 to 2/3 the size of your foot. you stand on them for stability. trust me its hard as fuk, man. in fact, why not try for yourself.

i tried what john wang showed me, im willing to see his point of view. he justed wanted to promote himself.

dirtyrat asked me and he actually went and did it, he couldnt last 5 min, and that was with a 20 pound vest.

wenshu
07-11-2011, 02:07 PM
...and that's martial how?
that will help you to become a better kung fu person how?

admit it, you're lazy and you're scrared to fight and that's why you stick with the cryptic BS and hide behind your chinese superiority complex around kung fu.

I can't believe you post gymnastic shots to support an argument on the validity of the training in a martial environment.

Maybe that's because you CAN'T show an actual martial value to it. lol

No wait, that's exactly why. :rolleyes:

Strength is strength. Horse stance is a form of static strength training. L sit, L sit cross and Maltese are static strength elements.

Muscle ups are from gymnastics not Crossfit. Crossfit just uses a sloppy version of them.

Before you crack open another Molson Ice try this exercise, (as long as your beer gut doesn't rest on the floor). Hold for time. I bet you don't last 15s.
http://www.best-abs-exercises.com/images/Forearm-Plank.jpg

It's a static strength exercise, like horse stance, or l sits, planche, front lever, chao tian deng etc.

How is strength not martial?

Northwind
07-11-2011, 02:25 PM
Although I do dig on ZZ, I do not consider it to be directly applicable to combat/fighting.

SPJ
07-11-2011, 02:47 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtUKTd2WKsc

hun yuan zhuang

usually means that posture may turn into many other postures of a said style.

in xing yi

it is san ti shi

etc etc.

:)

SPJ
07-11-2011, 02:52 PM
for judo or shuai jiao


it will be bending your knees, arching your back and both hands forward with bent elbows

it is the basic posture for defending or starting

---

David Jamieson
07-11-2011, 02:55 PM
Strength is strength. Horse stance is a form of static strength training. L sit, L sit cross and Maltese are static strength elements.

Muscle ups are from gymnastics not Crossfit. Crossfit just uses a sloppy version of them.

Before you crack open another Molson Ice try this exercise, (as long as your beer gut doesn't rest on the floor). Hold for time. I bet you don't last 15s.
http://www.best-abs-exercises.com/images/Forearm-Plank.jpg

It's a static strength exercise, like horse stance, or l sits, planche, front lever, chao tian deng etc.

How is strength not martial?


:rolleyes: a plank really? lol. Crossfit is sloppy? lol again... Molson Ice? Are you kidding?

so

You are a weakling if you cannot hold a plank for more than 2 minutes. Your core sucks period. You should have few issues with holding a plank if you have good core.
Are you so insecure in your own physical worth that you diminish an outfit like crossfit which basically has as their warmup, your entire workout? sloppy? GTFO newb, I bet a dollar you couldn't cut it in a 1 hour crossfit hump. :p

I'm not talking that strength is not martial, it is and there are far ore effective ways to develop it than what bawang for instance is advocating which is a huge waste of time and the results he is looking for can be achieved more efficiently and more effectively by simply doing structured relative functional weight training and cardio vascular training.

for what it's worth, if you want to make your plank even harder and better for your core, lift up onto your hands, now lift one hand and one leg on opposing sides and hold that.

I bet you don't last 3 seconds at first. Go slowly and work your way up.

Lucas
07-11-2011, 03:01 PM
Okay, now look here Devis Jamersin, what is the meaning of all these shinannigans?

David Jamieson
07-11-2011, 03:07 PM
Okay, now look here Devis Jamersin, what is the meaning of all these shinannigans?

When people can argue a point properly and with understanding, my shenanigans will stop.

For instance:

1. do this
2. it needs this much time
3. result

or

1. Do Flys with progressively heavier weights
2. do it to failure for one year every second day
3. Pecs!

See what I mean?

It's not very convincing to say: "put weight and stand there and you will be good at kung fu"

really, what does that do for one's kung fu, how does it do it and how can one measure the results in context to using ones kung fu?

Is your kung fu that you work in shipping dock and load trucks? because that exercise would be serviceable to your daily function.

I've spent a lot of time whittling away at the superfluous and not so result bringing aspects of what I was taught. I've whittled away A LOT. It's still kung fu. But everything has a what/how/why now.

You can expect results in this way I find, and not muse about the possibility of them.

Lucas
07-11-2011, 03:16 PM
I find your lack of rise at my name jab to be rather disturbing.

wenshu
07-11-2011, 03:22 PM
:rolleyes: a plank really? lol. Crossfit is sloppy? lol again... Molson Ice? Are you kidding?

so

You are a weakling if you cannot hold a plank for more than 2 minutes. Your core sucks period. You should have few issues with holding a plank if you have good core.
Are you so insecure in your own physical worth that you diminish an outfit like crossfit which basically has as their warmup, your entire workout? sloppy? GTFO newb, I bet a dollar you couldn't cut it in a 1 hour crossfit hump. :p

I'm not talking that strength is not martial, it is and there are far ore effective ways to develop it than what bawang for instance is advocating which is a huge waste of time and the results he is looking for can be achieved more efficiently and more effectively by simply doing structured relative functional weight training and cardio vascular training.

for what it's worth, if you want to make your plank even harder and better for your core, lift up onto your hands, now lift one hand and one leg on opposing sides and hold that.

I bet you don't last 3 seconds at first. Go slowly and work your way up.

Crossfit is garbage. Their workouts don't last longer then 10 minutes let alone an hour. "Your warm up is our workout". How original. You don't know **** about conditioning if you think Crossfit is teh l33tness. Flopping around like a fish being electrocuted and calling it pull ups and muscle ups is the very definition of sloppy. Pull Glassman's dick out of your ear.

Oh I forgot, deadlifts and snatches for reps? Yeah not sloppy at all.

Call me lazy? You obviously don't have respect for what is the monumental daily struggle against your bland intellectual laziness.

Lucas
07-11-2011, 03:31 PM
Call me lazy? You obviously don't have respect for what is the monumental daily struggle against your bland intellectual laziness.

oh snap, even if i was the target of that i would still be laughing my ass off, that is a good one.

wenshu
07-11-2011, 03:40 PM
For instance:

1. do this
2. it needs this much time
3. result

or

1. Do Flys with progressively heavier weights
2. do it to failure for one year every second day
3. Pecs!

See what I mean?

Dude, do you even workout? To failure every second day?


When people can argue a point properly and with understanding, my shenanigans will stop.


It's not very convincing to say: "put weight and stand there and you will be good at kung fu"


I particularly appreciate how you pontificate about rhetoric while simultaneously arguing against a point no one made (well except those yi quan people which to be fair was the original topic. . .) Where did I or bawang say that stance training would automagically make you good at kung fu?

dirtyrat
07-11-2011, 03:44 PM
dirtyrat asked me and he actually went and did it, he couldnt last 5 min, and that was with a 20 pound vest.

hey its was closer to 30lbs.:o lol! it hurts! must be getting soft as i get older.

bawang
07-11-2011, 03:52 PM
hey its was closer to 30lbs.:o lol! it hurts! must be getting soft as i get older.

you actually tried it and didnt just sit around giving empty talk. you have honer. respec.

David Jamieson
07-11-2011, 04:09 PM
Sorry wenshu, you may not degrade the choices you made with new circular logic attempts. You said your share, I said mine. I don't think there is any need to reiterate.

Bottom line is this.

You train what you want.

I will continue to train as i do.

that's all. :)

bawang
07-11-2011, 04:13 PM
david ross has made me realize and reevaluate my kung fu training. i dont just make monologues on internet. i listen to others.

David Jamieson
07-11-2011, 04:25 PM
david ross has made me realize and reevaluate my kung fu training. i dont just make monologues on internet. i listen to others.

lol.

:p

..........................

Scott R. Brown
07-11-2011, 04:48 PM
but thats not in the "wrestling king" tv show.

Is this?

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/image.php?u=31667&type=sigpic&dateline=1310049367

Scott R. Brown
07-11-2011, 04:50 PM
The only thing standing exercises improve is your ability to stand!

Some people get paid for that at their jobs!

donjitsu2
07-11-2011, 04:52 PM
Is this?

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/image.php?u=31667&type=sigpic&dateline=1310049367


no this:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTFWl6ejKxE

YouKnowWho
07-11-2011, 07:12 PM
horse stance is very basic to shuai jiao conditioning.
But this is not even a horse stance training. I truly don't think it has anything to do with combat.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtUKTd2WKsc

Brule
07-11-2011, 07:14 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-cP2ytMtsM

YouKnowWho
07-11-2011, 07:19 PM
Will it be more fun to do this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-cP2ytMtsM

than this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtUKTd2WKsc

Am I the abnormal kind or you guys are? :confused:

bawang
07-11-2011, 07:37 PM
maybe ive been living under a rock, i didnt know traditional stance training is no longer white friendly.

Mattador
07-11-2011, 07:53 PM
You have to realize something about old Davey boy. He will be defensive all day long against "mma meatheads" and then brag about his own training. The sad truth is that if he was truly proud of his training he would post a video of it as proof of its effectiveness. There are plenty of videos of the effectiveness of real workouts.

bawang
07-11-2011, 07:59 PM
i dont understand how people can hate mma "meatheads" then sh1t on the most fundamental, beginner, bread and butter training of traditional kung fu.
if you dont do stance training, then what the fuk are you doing?



david ross doesnt like stance training. so he trains sanda and mma. you guys sh1t all over traditional training then do forms or push hands. doesnt make a dam sense.

Lucas
07-11-2011, 08:05 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13gdhmVBJkI

3:00

this sh!t is bananas!!

Mattador
07-11-2011, 08:08 PM
i dont understand how people can hate mma "meatheads" then sh1t on the most fundamental, beginner, bread and butter training of traditional kung fu.
if you dont do stance training, then what the fuk are you doing?


and john wang posting video of his daughter in a pole dancing competition then calling people abnormal. the hell wrong with you??

People only like to pretend they are doing real kung Fu. They watch Jet LI play Wong Fei Hung and imagine themselves standing in horse stance while cooking dinner. In reality these larpers are eating doritos and imagining how tough they are. And their real training? They run through the first few moves of a form while pretending to impress their wives.

There is no such thing as traditional Kung Fu training because it is too hard. Real Kung Fu strike training looks more like kickboxing training than hitting non-moving sandbags.

YouKnowWho
07-11-2011, 08:09 PM
sh1t on the most fundamental, beginner, bread and butter training of traditional kung fu.
To stand on both feet without bending the legs is not fundamental, beginner, bread and butter training of traditional kung fu. My teacher had never done it. I have never done it. And I'll never do it for the rest of my life either. It will never be my cup of tea.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtUKTd2WKsc

Mattador
07-11-2011, 08:12 PM
I pretended to be a Kung Fu larper and said I could stop a takedown with horse stance and iron palm. Tentigers lectured me on the need for cardio training and then puts up a thread about "special gong training". I am surprised nobody attaches weights to their nuts. Do you see the hypocrisy? Lightness training? Lol

bawang
07-11-2011, 08:14 PM
To stand on both feet without bending the legs is not fundamental, beginner, bread and butter training of traditional kung fu. My teacher had never done it. I have never done it. And I'll never do it for the rest of my life either. It will never be my cup of tea.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtUKTd2WKsc

i keep saying over and over, high post is for weak and elderly.

Lucas
07-11-2011, 08:15 PM
I am surprised nobody attaches weights to their nuts. Do you see the hypocrisy?

ahem..

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_BaWeTAWt3VI/RpNiA5ywwPI/AAAAAAAACTA/_c6VCUMGjhI/s400/Iron-Crotch-Kung-Fu-2.jpg

Lucas
07-11-2011, 08:16 PM
i keep saying over and over, high post is for weak and elderly.

http://northstarmartialarts.com/blog1/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/sai-ping-ma-horse-stance1.jpg

http://img.ehowcdn.com/article-page-main/ehow/images/a02/71/a3/perform-horse-stance-iron-palm-800x800.jpg

bawang
07-11-2011, 08:19 PM
let me make it clear. its understandable for white folks to be confused.

in northern kung fu, stance training is called "standing post". its not a special term in internal kung fu.

YouKnowWho
07-11-2011, 08:22 PM
i keep saying over and over, high post is for weak and elderly.
Why did people bring this clip into this discussion then? :confused:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtUKTd2WKsc

Are those horse stances low enough?

http://img844.imageshack.us/img844/8641/horsestance.jpg

Lucas
07-11-2011, 08:25 PM
almost everyone does low horse stance when they start kungfu. i think it could depend on the style since some people havnt but most northern or southern style has you doing lots of low stances and not just horse stance.

your stance gets higher as you get older, but you still see some old guys doing low standing. i think it depends on if you stick with it or not.

bawang
07-11-2011, 08:26 PM
Why did people bring this clip into this discussion then? :confused:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtUKTd2WKsc



because the guy who brought it up hasnt trained for 4 years and instead wrote science fiction.

Lucas
07-11-2011, 08:29 PM
bawang that picture is horrible lol

bawang
07-11-2011, 08:29 PM
almost everyone does low horse stance when they start kungfu.

not only is low horse stance standing post, there is even abdominal breathing and visualization of qi, in the low horse stance. if you are buddhist you can even chant mantras. this is standard songshan shaolin kung fu training.


bawang that picture is horrible lol
what

YouKnowWho
07-11-2011, 08:31 PM
It's so confused if we mix "combat" and "meditation" in the same thread.

Lucas
07-11-2011, 08:31 PM
dont you 'what' me. lol that picture in your signature...

Lucas
07-11-2011, 08:32 PM
It's so confused if we mix "combat" and "meditation" in the same thread.

but what about combat meditation? :eek:

Snipsky
07-11-2011, 08:32 PM
dont you 'what' me. Lol that picture in your signature...

tell em!!!

LOL Mixed Meditation Artists LOLOLOL

bawang
07-11-2011, 08:34 PM
It's so confused if we mix "combat" and "meditation" in the same thread.

are you going to stand in a low horse stance with a barbell on your back or not? are you gonna actualy try it and give honest feedback, or keep talking out of your ass to promote shuai jiao?

TenTigers
07-11-2011, 08:34 PM
MMM=Mixed Martial Meditation:D

YouKnowWho
07-11-2011, 08:34 PM
but what about combat meditation? :eek:
Not sure what combat meditation is? :confused:

Snipsky
07-11-2011, 08:35 PM
scroll up i beat you to it TT :D

TenTigers
07-11-2011, 08:36 PM
scroll up i beat you to it TT :D
doh!:eek:

step

bawang
07-11-2011, 08:37 PM
u guys are a bunch of poosies that got traumatized by your teachers horse stance training.

ur scared just by normal horse stance training. once i mention doing it with weights you all sh1t in your pants. cowerds.

Lucas
07-11-2011, 08:38 PM
Not sure what combat meditation is? :confused:

well i was only joking. :D


...but if i want to be serious though, some cultures meditate on combat. such as the act of violence and to ready their mind. prisoners do it too all the time. :eek:

bawang
07-11-2011, 08:39 PM
john wang you had 12 hours to try what i said to give your honest feedback. whatever happend to "live to old age, learn to old age"?

youre pulling a chiang kai shek on me, john.

YouKnowWho
07-11-2011, 08:40 PM
are you going to stand in a low horse stance with a barbell on your back or not? are you gonna actualy try it and give honest feedback, or keep talking out of your ass to promote shuai jiao?
This one is more fun.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDSvb7K8myw

TenTigers
07-11-2011, 08:41 PM
when I saw,"Explaining my biggest issues,"
I thought,"Finally, we can get this whole 'fat broads in spandex' thing out in the open."
or, the "Fat bastids in speedos at the beach" thing.
or maybe the,"Bad toupee, or combover" thing...
"trailer park fashions..?"


nope...

aussie1981
07-11-2011, 08:41 PM
I remember Rocky kwong of Wu tai chi said that sitting in a high horse stance is preferable to a low one to save the knees, also that putting pressure on the joints like that moves the blood around the body faster. They have a very practical way of training stance which is tied in with there nei gung and 5 direction fa jing.

personaly I feel that "post" training is great for relaxation and body structure but am dubious whether it developes power.

Ps, i'm not a student of Rocky's, only tried it out but know a couple of his disiples.

bawang
07-11-2011, 08:41 PM
yes, that is a good traditional shi danzi training. but thats a completely different excersise.

just take it and put it on your back in a low horse stance. prove me wrong. dont pull a chiang kai shek on me, john.

Lucas
07-11-2011, 08:42 PM
i google image horse stance and look what i found

http://i538.photobucket.com/albums/ff350/mossjuice/111019.jpg

bawang
07-11-2011, 08:43 PM
delete that annoying picture bro. this is a matter of personal HONER

just like chiang kai shek ran to taiwan, john wang is running from real discussion.

Lucas
07-11-2011, 08:44 PM
delete that annoying picture bro. this is a matter of personal HONER

just like chiang kai shek ran to taiwan, john wang is running from real discussion.

u first lol

bawang
07-11-2011, 08:47 PM
its manly showing honorable combat

why shold i


looks like john wang avoid real discussion like taiwan president chen shuibian avoids the countrys real problems.

Lucas
07-11-2011, 08:49 PM
its manly showing honorable combat

why shold i




remind me never to fight with u

YouKnowWho
07-11-2011, 08:49 PM
john wang you had 12 hours to try what i said to give your honest feedback. whatever happend to "live to old age, learn to old age"?

youre pulling a chiang kai shek on me, john.

Stay in a low horse stance with double head on my back? BTDT. It doesn't excite me any more.

Lucas
07-11-2011, 08:50 PM
what is BTDT?

oh never mind i figured it out. been there done that.

bawang
07-11-2011, 08:52 PM
Stay in a low horse stance with double head on my back? BTDT. It doesn't excite me any more.
i said that nine pages ago, john wang. stop pretending you didnt know, like the nationalist army pretended during the battle of kunlun pass.

YouKnowWho
07-11-2011, 08:52 PM
delete that annoying picture bro. this is a matter of personal HONER

just like chiang kai shek ran to taiwan, john wang is running from real discussion.

I have put up my personal clip. Where is yours?

Lucas
07-11-2011, 08:53 PM
I have put up my personal clip. Where is yours?

he wins cuz he has vid. long time internet rule.

bawang
07-11-2011, 08:53 PM
give me link of you doing horse stance with barbell. i swear by guan gong i will make video tomorow, or i am not real man.

YouKnowWho
07-11-2011, 08:58 PM
high horse stance is preferable to a low one to save the knees,

The only problem is you will need a low horse stance to make your hip throw work.

bawang
07-11-2011, 09:00 PM
are you going to do horse stance video in barbell or are you going to avoid like the nationalist army avoided during the 1939 winter offensive

YouKnowWho
07-11-2011, 09:01 PM
give me link of you doing horse stance with barbell. i swear by guan gong i will make video tomorow, or i am not real man.

How about this one (from 0.40 - 1.05)? I told you I had done that before.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXxRI1jLTVc

bawang
07-11-2011, 09:05 PM
you are indeed a man of great hono. i will uphold my oath, i will post video tomorw.
today i am sleepy. i go make hand party then sleep.

rett
07-12-2011, 01:15 AM
You have to progress, you have to leave your baby bottle behind and move on to eating the steak and potatoes man.

It's funny you should say that. As I understand it, the traditional Shaolin diet is mostly or entirely vegetarian and very soft on the stomach. No chilis. Includes a lot of gruel or thin porridge (with every meal basically). Correct me if I'm wrong.

rett
07-12-2011, 01:27 AM
Crossfit is garbage.

I have no opinion on crossfit since I've never done it, but as I understand it the US Marines use crossfit. And the Marines are what you could call martial, really martial.

rett
07-12-2011, 01:31 AM
It's not very convincing to say: "put weight and stand there and you will be good at kung fu"...

Is your kung fu that you work in shipping dock and load trucks? because that exercise would be serviceable to your daily function.


What do you think soldiers do (soldiers, you know, martial people) when they aren't actually fighting?

You have to get to the battle, carrying your gear; your knees and joints have to be able to handle walking over uneven ground with a huge load on your back; you have to dig and build fortifications; you have to unload trucks.

It was always like that in history.

Is your definition of martial training driving the SUV to the gym for just the fun part?

Scott R. Brown
07-12-2011, 01:52 AM
It's funny you should say that. As I understand it, the traditional Shaolin diet is mostly or entirely vegetarian and very soft on the stomach. No chilis. Includes a lot of gruel or thin porridge (with every meal basically). Correct me if I'm wrong.

The warrior monks ate meat! So, i guess it depends upon what you consider "traditional"!

rett
07-12-2011, 01:55 AM
The warrior monks ate meat! So, i guess it depends upon what you consider "traditional"!

Yeah I know Jet Li ate a dog, and his friends tried the frog soup.;)

Scott R. Brown
07-12-2011, 02:03 AM
The only thing standing training, whether high horse, low horse, cross step or post, improves, is your ability to stand a long time.

The only thing standing training with a barbell on your shoulders improves is your ability to stand a long time with a barbell on your shoulders.

The body is activity specific concerning the results of training. This means one should train as close to the REAL world actions one expects to encounter in REAL life.

Therefore, standing training improves one's ability to stand! The real world benefit would be then, STANDING IN LINE!

So, if you expect to fight standing in a long line, not moving for a long time, or if you expect to fight standing a long time with a barbell on your shoulders, or you just happen to expect to stand a long time in line like at the DMV, or the unemployment line, or at your socialized doctor's office, then standing training is for you!

Full steam ahead!

But if you want to be a good fighter your time is better spent practicing performing actions that mimic REAL life fighting actions!

rett
07-12-2011, 02:09 AM
But if you want to be a good fighter your time is better spent practicing performing actions that mimic REAL life fighting actions!

Once again. Mohammad Ali skipping rope.

Standing isolates the act of standing to give the mind the freedom to focus on things like internal connection, breathing, structure, relaxation.

In a fight do you think breathing matters? (the answer should be obvious)

Does structure matter, internal connection? (like suppose you lift shoulders?)

Don't get me wrong, I'm all about functional training. But breaking things down and very carefully examining one aspect is very good too. The mind can't pay attention to everything at once... most stuff has to run on automatic. So you practice the individual parts and deepen them till they're automatic. Occasionally you probably need to go back to them and refresh it because that's just how people function.

Scott R. Brown
07-12-2011, 04:24 AM
Skippping rope enhances two qualities that directly affect and improve boxing skills:

1) Increases aerobic capacity!
2) Develops agility! One can see Ali use this specific skill of staying light on his toes in his fights!

The same benefits cannot be attributed to standing!

Scott R. Brown
07-12-2011, 04:30 AM
Internal connection (whatever that is, is debatable), breathing structure and relaxation are more efficiently trained through dynamic activites!

They may also be developed effectively through sitting and lying down meditation. Thus, standing meditation does not apppear to add any clear benefits over other forms of training making active/dynamic training of these skills a more efficient use of ones time.

David Jamieson
07-12-2011, 04:33 AM
Skippping rope enhances two qualities that directly affect and improve boxing skills:

1) Increases aerobic capacity!
2) Develops agility! One can see Ali use this specific skill of staying light on his toes in his fights!

The same benefits cannot be attributed to standing!

3) footwork development is worked with rope skipping.

Tell me Rett, why are you here?

I ask because when you arrive, you seek ways to bypass the word filters and now you seem to be getting to a point where you will start being an all out troll I think.

am i right? Are you here to troll and play or are you here to discuss martial arts?

Scott R. Brown
07-12-2011, 04:42 AM
3) footwork development is worked with rope skipping.

Yes...that's what I meant by agility training.

David Jamieson
07-12-2011, 04:45 AM
Oh and before it goes any further, it is well understood that Jet LI's movie shaolin temple is not a faithful, factual or true telling of the temple. It's a redesign, a redux and a redaction.


There is only one constant at Shaolin temple, and that is change.

Diet isn't really relevant, if you are starving, you will eat anything, principles out the window.

Mattador
07-12-2011, 05:17 AM
3) footwork development is worked with rope skipping.

Tell me Rett, why are you here?

I ask because when you arrive, you seek ways to bypass the word filters and now you seem to be getting to a point where you will start being an all out troll I think.

am i right? Are you here to troll and play or are you here to discuss martial arts?

Translation: David cannot keep up with the conversation so he is going to start attacking you as being a troll. Typical of a Kung Fu larping mouth boxer

David Jamieson
07-12-2011, 05:23 AM
Translation: David cannot keep up with the conversation so he is going to start attacking you as being a troll. Typical of a Kung Fu larping mouth boxer

more trolls! hooray.

and you are? lol

Brule
07-12-2011, 05:37 AM
Skippping rope enhances two qualities that directly affect and improve boxing skills:

1) Increases aerobic capacity!
2) Develops agility! One can see Ali use this specific skill of staying light on his toes in his fights!

The same benefits cannot be attributed to standing!

so, can we say then that Ali trained light skills. lol.

Bawang, i've done the whole barbell stance training thing with 50lb and lasted 3 min. I found it made me fall backwards and put too much stress on the lower back and gave me bad posture. I switched to holding it across my legs, felt that it was more stable that way. Also felt more rooted.

Also, please get rid of that pic in your sig and the line about your mom being trong. Wrong on so many levels.

Brule
07-12-2011, 05:39 AM
Translation: David cannot keep up with the conversation so he is going to start attacking you as being a troll. Typical of a Kung Fu larping mouth boxer

Hey watch your self there, don't be putting Jimmy Damison in the same category as us other LARPers. You the alter ego of Dale Dugas? Next thing you know, you'll be calling him sub-human.

rett
07-12-2011, 05:45 AM
Internal connection (whatever that is, is debatable), breathing structure and relaxation are more efficiently trained through dynamic activites!

They may also be developed effectively through sitting and lying down meditation.

Sitting and lying down can't help you with hip-knees-ankles. So it's not the same.

rett
07-12-2011, 05:49 AM
Tell me Rett, why are you here?

I ask because when you arrive, you seek ways to bypass the word filters and now you seem to be getting to a point where you will start being an all out troll I think.


Because I disagree with you? I'm here to learn about views on martial arts and process stuff I've learned by trying to articulate it in writing. I've hardly seen a discussion on this kind of stuff on this forum that isn't highly contentious.

As for the word filters it's because I wrote the word far.t.her in a post and was surprised that it got all starred out. I'm not interested in cussing.

donjitsu2
07-12-2011, 05:56 AM
Translation: David cannot keep up with the conversation so he is going to start attacking you as being a troll. Typical of a Kung Fu larping mouth boxer

you suck.

http://cdn3.knowyourmeme.com/i/16815/original/unsuccessful-troll.jpg

rett
07-12-2011, 06:00 AM
Thus, standing meditation does not apppear to add any clear benefits over other forms of training making active/dynamic training of these skills a more efficient use of ones time.

Perhaps, but there are different situations in one's training life and different situations in the course of the day.

If you get up at 4:30 am and go out to train before even really waking up, standing in a very easy posture can be a great way to start. It feels perfect for the body and mind/emotions at that time of day. By around 5:30 maybe you're doing soft movements then it's time to go in and eat breakfast.

You've still got the other training sessions that day to do other things. Another example is if you've overstrained yourself some and need a break but don't want to leave off completely. Standing or very soft movement can be perfect because you can pay close attentions to the strained place and not mess up the injury more.

Just some examples. I don't see the point in dissing a classic training method. Maybe it doesn't suit everyone, but just writing it off in the name of efficiency strikes me as odd.

If that makes me a troll, so be it.

David Jamieson
07-12-2011, 06:00 AM
Because I disagree with you? No, it's the content of your post. I don't think you've disagreed with anything I've said have you?


I'm here to learn about views on martial arts and process stuff I've learned by trying to articulate it in writing. I've hardly seen a discussion on this kind of stuff on this forum that isn't highly contentious.

As for the word filters it's because I wrote the word far.t.her in a post and was surprised that it got all starred out. I'm not interested in cussing.

fair enough. It was a question. Understand that there is a huge influx of losers with nothing to do that come here and simply disparage people who have chosen to undertake kung fu as a pursuit.

It's usually armchair ufc fanbois for the most part and confused people who seem to think that a kungfu forum is their place to talk about high school wrestling and what they think of bjj.

so, it gets weird and you're new. Just checking. :)

expect a lot of eye brow raising stuff seeing as you're here for kung fu.

you'll find taht a great deal of it isn't that. :)

a lot of bitter kids here too. lol see how they hate on me for no reason other than to say something naughty towards something.

SimonM
07-12-2011, 06:16 AM
I'm declaring this whole thread an epic win for me. :D

Scott R. Brown
07-12-2011, 06:55 AM
Sitting and lying down can't help you with hip-knees-ankles. So it's not the same.

Training will take care of strengthening these!

I do not mean to imply stake has no benefit, just that it does not provide anything unique that only standing will produce. There are other exercises more efficient for just about anything that may be attributed to standing!


I'm declaring this whole thread an epic win for me. :D

I was thinking the same thing about 3 hours ago!

Good job! :)

SimonM
07-12-2011, 06:58 AM
Thank you. :)

rett
07-12-2011, 07:01 AM
Training will take care of strengthening these!

Sure, but we were talking about (I quote you) "Internal connection (whatever that is, is debatable), breathing, structure and relaxation" not strength.


I do not mean to imply stake has no benefit, just that it does not provide anything unique that only standing will produce. There are other exercises more efficient for just about anything that may be attributed to standing!

Maybe so, but please see my post a few posts up about special reasons or situations where standing stake might be just right. (very early morning, as rehab etc)

TenTigers
07-12-2011, 08:12 AM
Once again. Mohammad Ali skipping rope.

Standing isolates the act of standing to give the mind the freedom to focus on things like internal connection, breathing, structure, relaxation.

In a fight do you think breathing matters? (the answer should be obvious)

Does structure matter, internal connection? (like suppose you lift shoulders?)

Don't get me wrong, I'm all about functional training. But breaking things down and very carefully examining one aspect is very good too. The mind can't pay attention to everything at once... most stuff has to run on automatic. So you practice the individual parts and deepen them till they're automatic. Occasionally you probably need to go back to them and refresh it because that's just how people function.
good points.
Scott, lying meditation cannot accomplish these things as the floor is doing all the support.
I think we all agree that standing stake is not fight training, nor is it skill development per se, but that it serves a very unique purpose. Limited in scope, sure. But in some cases, for some of us, we find it is a necessary part of training.
So..what's the big issue now?

KC Elbows
07-12-2011, 08:15 AM
The current big issue is the proper spelling of David Jamieson's name.

TenTigers
07-12-2011, 08:24 AM
The current big issue is the proper spelling of David Jamieson's name.
there are much bigger issues at hand. Like the fact that youse all forgot my birthday yesterday, so fek yous'all.

KC Elbows
07-12-2011, 08:30 AM
I don't know what you're talking about, Teen Tiger.

Brule
07-12-2011, 08:32 AM
http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-6531.html

...step!

SPJ
07-12-2011, 08:35 AM
we have to learn how to stand or have correct body structure first before we move.

tai chi or hun yuan zhuang

we focus our body center line, we have archness in all of our joints

shoulder dropped, elbow bent, knee bent, sitting on hip, spine naturally arched

---

the foundation posture

or mother posture of all postures.

--

:)

SPJ
07-12-2011, 08:36 AM
we have many bowlike structure

the elbow and shoulder are like a bow

the hip and the knee are like a bow

the chest/back are like a bow

do you have any bowness or archess in your posture for standing

---

Lucas
07-12-2011, 08:49 AM
there are much bigger issues at hand. Like the fact that youse all forgot my birthday yesterday, so fek yous'all.

i feel ashamed for all of us bro. i didnt look yesterday :(

we sowwy

Northwind
07-12-2011, 12:04 PM
there are much bigger issues at hand. Like the fact that youse all forgot my birthday yesterday, so fek yous'all.

Well...If you're serious, then Happy Belated Birthday! :)
And if you're not...Well it's off to the stake with you! Stand! :P

wenshu
07-12-2011, 12:18 PM
there are much bigger issues at hand. Like the fact that youse all forgot my birthday yesterday, so fek yous'all.

Less crying. More steppin'.

Miqi
07-12-2011, 01:12 PM
I won't lie, I have a pretty big problem with standing stake meditation - as fight training. How people choose to stand when meditating really doesn't concern me. However that's not what people pushing Standing Stake claim to be doing.

Here are my reasons why I've got an issue. You'll note that all of this discussion will be couched in rational discourse regarding mechanics of the body. If you can explain without resorting to pseudo-mystical nonsense an error in my reasoning I'll be happy to hear you out.

Counting down:

3) Sensitivity is best trained dynamically.

The proponents of Standing Stake training claim it helps build sensitivity. They point to example of "internal" masters who had their students spend up to a decade standing stake before learning a thing and claim that these students were better for it.

The problem is that in a fight you won't be standing perfectly still. A body in motion has different properties than a body at rest - namely things like velocity and angular momentum. By training sensitivity without considering how body sensitivity is affected by being in motion, and in fact by being in motion when an oppositional force is contending against you, it is training a bad practice for a fighter.

Unless you have no body awareness to begin with (IE: you are too uncoordinated to walk) the ten years of training standing still are ten waisted years.

A novice pugilist with a few months of actual practice boxing, and especially wrestling, will have developed a sensitivity to body position that will include understanding of how dynamic forces work.

The same can not be said for somebody who just practised standing stock-still.

2) Standing still has no combat application. I find the concept behind Standing Stake to be disingenuous. Even with forms, although I think there are more efficient ways to train, there is some attempt to practice a series of movements with specific applications. This is lacking in Standing Stake.

I understand that the founder of Yiquan took the concept of formlessness very seriously. But I have serious reservations about his pedagogical method. If you want to teach somebody not to use specific forms while fighting you show him how the various pieces work, in detail, and then you teach him to identify moments of change and transition so that he can understand to apply the appropriate technique at the appropriate moment. Training formlessness by having the student literally do nothing accomplishes nothing.

1) ELBOW POSITIONING!!!

This is a HUGE beef I have with students of Standing Stake and it is one I can demonstrate easily.

Here's a video of standing stake. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtUKTd2WKsc)

I want you to notice where the elbows are - high and wide.

Now, here's a video of a yiquan player shadow-boxing (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDDVAOItmA0).
And just for good measure, another video of a yiquan player shadow-boxing (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZ6TwS2SARw&feature=related).

Again notice the elbows - they always return to high and wide.

Here is a video of a yiquan player demonstrating push-hand basics. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUpdRcs_4mk&feature=related)

Where are the elbows? High and wide.

This is bad. This is REALLY bad. Why?

Here is why:

Pay attention at 1:39 -if your elbows are sticking out this is very easy to do. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50kWy6FaZKA)

That's not even considering the fact that you are basically opening yourself for unlimited gut-shots with this guard. It's not considering that the width and projection of the arms makes the guard next-to useless for protecting the face. If your elbows are sticking out you are giving them to any decent grappler in any style.

And if they have your elbow they have your back.

If a grappler has your back you are screwed.

From what I have seen of Yiquan (the martial art that makes the widest use of standing stake) the focus on the practice conditions the players to have a high, wide guard.

This is a direct result of spending up to a decade holding their arms high with elbows wide as a key component of training. It is, simply put, training a bad habit.

Oh, yeah, also if your elbows are wide you cut off your arms from your body for power generation on strikes. This explains why so many Yiquan videos seem not to involve the torso at all in power generation, the mechanics of the arms limits them.

Head in my hands, and in all honesty, there is no answer to this. Well, there will be an answer - people will tell you that you are ignorant. But there is no honest answer, except to accept what you say.

Scott R. Brown
07-12-2011, 02:36 PM
Head in my hands, and in all honesty, there is no answer to this. Well, there will be an answer - people will tell you that you are ignorant. But there is no honest answer, except to accept what you say.

And others will tell you that you are ignorant!

If standing offered any significant benefits that outweighed other forms of training, most professional fighters and soldiers would be practicing it! This is because winning is all important in these two activities!

For example, all athletes do some form of conditioning, ALL of them!

Why? Because there is uncontroversial objective evidence, that is repeatable under every circumstance imaginable, that conditioning improves performance. This fact has been known and demonstrated for thousands of years!

Now specifically, weight training has been repeatedly demonstrated to improve ones strength and power, with various techniques usable that will improve one's generation of speed! Strength, power and speed have repeatedly and uncontroversially been demonstrated to improve performance

Therefore, serious athletes practice some kind of weight training program.

Once "standing" provides the same uncontroversial objective evidence that it improves performance, rather than anecdotal evidence, it WILL be used by athletes and soldiers in order to ensure their victory over their opponents! This will be the measure, in modern time, whether "standing" is of any true, rather than imagined, benefit!

Dale Dugas
07-12-2011, 02:49 PM
there are much bigger issues at hand. Like the fact that youse all forgot my birthday yesterday, so fek yous'all.


I did not miss your Bday and told you so on your FB page.

I was busy with treating patients in the clinic and did not peruse KFO.

TenTigers
07-12-2011, 03:42 PM
I did not miss your Bday and told you so on your FB page.

I was busy with treating patients in the clinic and did not peruse KFO.
yep-thanx Dale. You and a few facebook buds are hereby excused from all my wrath!:D

Miqi
07-12-2011, 03:54 PM
I won't lie, I have a pretty big problem with standing stake meditation - as fight training. How people choose to stand when meditating really doesn't concern me. However that's not what people pushing Standing Stake claim to be doing.

Here are my reasons why I've got an issue. You'll note that all of this discussion will be couched in rational discourse regarding mechanics of the body. If you can explain without resorting to pseudo-mystical nonsense an error in my reasoning I'll be happy to hear you out.

Counting down:

3) Sensitivity is best trained dynamically.

The proponents of Standing Stake training claim it helps build sensitivity. They point to example of "internal" masters who had their students spend up to a decade standing stake before learning a thing and claim that these students were better for it.

The problem is that in a fight you won't be standing perfectly still. A body in motion has different properties than a body at rest - namely things like velocity and angular momentum. By training sensitivity without considering how body sensitivity is affected by being in motion, and in fact by being in motion when an oppositional force is contending against you, it is training a bad practice for a fighter.

Unless you have no body awareness to begin with (IE: you are too uncoordinated to walk) the ten years of training standing still are ten waisted years.

A novice pugilist with a few months of actual practice boxing, and especially wrestling, will have developed a sensitivity to body position that will include understanding of how dynamic forces work.

The same can not be said for somebody who just practised standing stock-still.

2) Standing still has no combat application. I find the concept behind Standing Stake to be disingenuous. Even with forms, although I think there are more efficient ways to train, there is some attempt to practice a series of movements with specific applications. This is lacking in Standing Stake.

I understand that the founder of Yiquan took the concept of formlessness very seriously. But I have serious reservations about his pedagogical method. If you want to teach somebody not to use specific forms while fighting you show him how the various pieces work, in detail, and then you teach him to identify moments of change and transition so that he can understand to apply the appropriate technique at the appropriate moment. Training formlessness by having the student literally do nothing accomplishes nothing.

1) ELBOW POSITIONING!!!

This is a HUGE beef I have with students of Standing Stake and it is one I can demonstrate easily.

Here's a video of standing stake. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtUKTd2WKsc)

I want you to notice where the elbows are - high and wide.

Now, here's a video of a yiquan player shadow-boxing (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDDVAOItmA0).
And just for good measure, another video of a yiquan player shadow-boxing (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZ6TwS2SARw&feature=related).

Again notice the elbows - they always return to high and wide.

Here is a video of a yiquan player demonstrating push-hand basics. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUpdRcs_4mk&feature=related)

Where are the elbows? High and wide.

This is bad. This is REALLY bad. Why?

Here is why:

Pay attention at 1:39 -if your elbows are sticking out this is very easy to do. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50kWy6FaZKA)

That's not even considering the fact that you are basically opening yourself for unlimited gut-shots with this guard. It's not considering that the width and projection of the arms makes the guard next-to useless for protecting the face. If your elbows are sticking out you are giving them to any decent grappler in any style.

And if they have your elbow they have your back.

If a grappler has your back you are screwed.

From what I have seen of Yiquan (the martial art that makes the widest use of standing stake) the focus on the practice conditions the players to have a high, wide guard.

This is a direct result of spending up to a decade holding their arms high with elbows wide as a key component of training. It is, simply put, training a bad habit.

Oh, yeah, also if your elbows are wide you cut off your arms from your body for power generation on strikes. This explains why so many Yiquan videos seem not to involve the torso at all in power generation, the mechanics of the arms limits them.

However.... you're telling Cung:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UahQiwgXudc&feature=related


Scott R Brown you big bluffer - you've been here for ten years, lecturing others, hiding behind your computer. What a terrible thing it must be, to be a hero from behind closed doors, but secretly ashamed.

Even an old fraud like me understands that if you can't provide a shred of contradictory evidence, no matter how painful, no matter how much one loves yiquan, one can not do anything except honestly accept it. You, sat behind your computer, fantasising about what you can do 'in reality' are the last person we'd vote to actually go and train with MMA and muay thai guys, to learn from them and improve the art. What would you do? - e-mail them messages about how they're doing everything wrong?

There are only two things any of us can do - shut up, and at least not extend the shame by barking like a dog with no teeth, or go and learn to be better, and bring it back, cvombine it, and actually have something to show, to respond and counter argue, to show the value of what we do. I know which I'm going to do.

SimonM
07-12-2011, 04:05 PM
Um... you realize that Scott and I are different people right?

David Jamieson
07-12-2011, 05:51 PM
Um... you realize that Scott and I are different people right?

:p where's the homer simpson icon when you need it?

doh!

Northwind
07-12-2011, 05:53 PM
Um... you realize that Scott and I are different people right?
That don't matter none - jest go on an feel mah wrath gosh-darnit! :P

SimonM
07-12-2011, 06:14 PM
Also... apparently my argument is invalid because... Cung Le

You know because a sanshou fighter who cross-trained in TKD and wrestling is the exact same thing as a yiquan player. :rolleyes:

Northwind
07-12-2011, 06:28 PM
Also... apparently my argument is invalid because... Cung Le

You know because a sanshou fighter who cross-trained in TKD and wrestling is the exact same thing as a yiquan player. :rolleyes:

But of course. It makes perfect sense! :P

On the flip side...Let's not even touch one of Cung's coaches, Shawn Liu... Worms and Cans and such...

Scott R. Brown
07-12-2011, 06:29 PM
miqi is just the latest know nothing expert who accuses everyone else of doing what he does himself!

He isn't quite a troll, but he has the makings!

Northwind
07-12-2011, 06:30 PM
He isn't quite a troll, but he has the makings!

All it takes is a lil training - ya know the old blood, sweat & tears thing - and he could truly become one of the greatest trolls ever! Please don't underestimate others' potential.

SimonM
07-12-2011, 06:33 PM
On the flip side...Let's not even touch one of Cung's coaches, Shawn Liu... Worms and Cans and such...

Quick google search, agreed, worms, cans...

Scott R. Brown
07-12-2011, 06:44 PM
All it takes is a lil training - ya know the old blood, sweat & tears thing - and he could truly become one of the greatest trolls ever! Please don't underestimate others' potential.

If he just trained "standing stake", or what I like to call "tree hugging" more, his qi would sink into his tan tien more readily and his trolliquosity just might achieve supra-normal levels!

Scott R. Brown
07-12-2011, 07:28 PM
However.... you're telling Cung:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UahQiwgXudc&feature=related


Scott R Brown you big bluffer - you've been here for ten years, lecturing others, hiding behind your computer. What a terrible thing it must be, to be a hero from behind closed doors, but secretly ashamed.

Even an old fraud like me understands that if you can't provide a shred of contradictory evidence, no matter how painful, no matter how much one loves yiquan, one can not do anything except honestly accept it. You, sat behind your computer, fantasising about what you can do 'in reality' are the last person we'd vote to actually go and train with MMA and muay thai guys, to learn from them and improve the art. What would you do? - e-mail them messages about how they're doing everything wrong?

There are only two things any of us can do - shut up, and at least not extend the shame by barking like a dog with no teeth, or go and learn to be better, and bring it back, cvombine it, and actually have something to show, to respond and counter argue, to show the value of what we do. I know which I'm going to do.

Hmmmmm......I understand you are just a beginner here on the board so you have not really read much of my ten years or so of posting! Perhaps you should not presume anything about what I would say about anything!

But just for your sake I will make a few clear statements on my position concerning a few topics!

1) MMA.....good! Not the be all that many people think it is, but valuable to learn!

2) Muay Thai.....super cool, love it and love the way they train!

3) Boxing.....the same as I feel about Muay Thai!

4) Wrestling.....the same as I feel about MMA!

5) Tai Chi and other internal systems.......fun to do, some self-defense applications....do it cuz its fun, not to learn to defend yourself, in most cases.

6) Weapons.....everyone should learn 2 or 3 for self-defense purposes!

7) Forms.....fun to do....not directly self-defense applicable! Do them if you like them, but not the most efficient use of time for self-defense applications.

8) Wu Shu.....fun to do! Not directly self-defense applicable!

9) Weight Training.....valuable and recommended for everyone, even my wife and kids!

10) Meditation.....good for you.....not dirctly self-defense applicable, but does have benefits that make it worth the time and effort, plus benefits other areas of your life!

11) Qi Gong........pretty much the same as Meditation,/as long as one doesn't get carried away with the fantasy claims!

12) Other forms of conditioning, such as iron ball juggling, sprinting, stretching, balancing on balls, hacky sack, plyometrics, if it is fun for you and you have the time, good for you!

There is a little primer and catch up of some ten years of postings for you. Now you don't have to make ignorant assumptions about me any more :)

P.S. Feel free to call me Scott, rather than Scott R. Brown. Everyone, including me, will know who you mean! :)

Scott R. Brown
07-12-2011, 07:32 PM
Hey Simon,

More Kudos, your thread is still going strong!

What would we do without the trolls, huh? :D

YouKnowWho
07-12-2011, 10:14 PM
If standing offered any significant benefits that outweighed other forms of training, most professional fighters and soldiers would be practicing it! This is because winning is all important in these two activities!

I had a discussion with the Beijing PE University Judo and wrestling coach 王德英(Wang De Ying) who trained Chinese Olympic Judo guys and wrestlers. I asked him about his opinion on Qi. His response was, "If Qi works on the mat. what am I doing here?"

Northwind
07-12-2011, 10:18 PM
is response was, "If Qi works on the mat. what am I doing here?"

And sorry John, as I have a lot of respect for you, but...that statement is about as ludicrous as it gets. Qi does not "work".

你知道是什麼意思的天氣?
I think you do. It means weather. Qi is a word with many meanings and many contexts, as you know. Please don't turn it into some cr@p new age things just because of clueless others...

YouKnowWho
07-12-2011, 11:26 PM
王德英(Wang De Ying) was talking about LKJ (I just quoted ever single words that he had said). That kind of demo was very popular back in 1984. back then when people talke about Qi, they always talke about LKJ.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAiwnNSh49c