Pien San Wing Chun

[LoneTiger108]

I've often heard of the Lee Shing Families methods referred to as Pien San, or Side Body Wing Chun.

Has anyone out there trained in these methods?

Do you already have pien san in your Wing Chun training?

I've also, obviously, read the Chu, Ritchie, Wu book that mentions Lee Shing as being a student of Fung Sang. Other sources also include the legendary Ng Jung So, Fung Yee Min, Koo Siu Lung, Chan Wah Shun, Yiu Chui, Lok Yiu, Jiu Wan and Ip Man as having something to do with Lee Shings learning.

I myself can't prove any of this. They're just ideas I've read and only heard others talk of very rarely.

Any comments would be very welcome.

[reneritchie]

It's my understanding that Lee Sing learned Pien San WCK while in China from the Fung family, and the Yip Man WCK after he moved to HK. He seems to have taught his students the Yip Man curriculum (Siu Nim Tao, Chum Kiu, Biu Jee sets), and then the Pien San material as an additional curriculum (which some called Dai Nim Tao, as in Pien San, Dai Nim Tao is the name of one of the short sequences).

Here the entry I have for him:

http://www.wingchunkuen.com/modules.php?name=Encyclopedia&op=content&tid=20

[LoneTiger108]

I had already read this article, and although it has some good infformation I still feel like it doesn't really do Lee Shing justice at all.

Highlighting a curriculum like this must cause questions among practitioners. All I'm saying here is that I 'know' that Ip Mans Wing Chun has Pien San in it and it's not just Lee Shing who trained this idea. The extra-stuff was Lee Shings methods from Fung Sang and others! A lifetimes collection of experiences!

With respect, why would you think Lee Shing taught his students Ip Man & Pien San styles separately? And what does 'Pien San' actually mean to you?

[reneritchie]

Hi,

If you have more/better info, please send it my way and I'm happy to update!

[LoneTiger108]

If only eh!?

Unfortunately, as most of us can only hang on to the memories of conversations with our teachers, collecting and actually writing these stories is no easy task Rene!! As you must well know.

I do have more, albeit from a single source, but this is also where I think the general Wing Chun popularity stakes kick in big time. Joseph Man was also very like Lee Shing, as he rarely promoted himself and, in a way, sat back and watched his juniors spread the art of Wing Chun in London and the UK.

He spent (almost!) every day of his Martial Art life studying and training with Lee Shing, from 1965 until 1991 and I met him in 1993 when he was actually looking for some new students. We would stay up late just chatting about life and memories, and I have to say that there were very few people still there with me!!

If you would really like to know more about this humble Masters life I could always make some enquiries on your behalf. I've got enough of my own notes to fill a few books, but most is related to my own Sifu and the way he trained his students from 1978 onwards.

I was actually hoping that more people would post with their own experiences of Lee Shing, but it's becoming more obvious that very few westerners ever met him...

[Firehawk4]

Are you saying that Yip Mans Wing Chun has added Pien San Wing Chun in its system ? If so who added it to the Yip Man system Yip Man or did they get it from Lee Shing ?

[Vajramusti]

All I'm saying here is that I 'know' that Ip Mans Wing Chun has Pien San in it and it's not just Lee Shing who trained this idea. The extra-stuff was Lee Shings methods from Fung Sang and others! A lifetimes collection of experiences!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Know"? Wishing it to be so?

joy chaudhuri

[LoneTiger108]

Are you saying that Yip Mans Wing Chun has added Pien San Wing Chun in its system ? If so who added it to the Yip Man system Yip Man or did they get it from Lee Shing ?

This is a question I was hoping for others to answer! I'm not saying anything has been added.

This discussion has led me to the wingchunkuen sites forum also, trying to understand what all this chat about 'Pien San Wing Chun' is all aboout as I understand Uncle Gohs student published a book talking of these concepts.

I feel that I'm gradually seeing that other families have other ideas here, and are quite defensive about certain topics. Fung Sang is held as being a source of PSWC, and as Lee Shing learnt from him people refer to his methods as Pien San.

I'm not disagreeing with that, I'm trying to understand 'why' Fung Sangs WC is referred to as Pien San?

When I say I 'know' that Ip Man WC has PS in it, I'm referring to Pien San as I know it, being 'slant/angle body'. This maybe viewed as a speciality to some families, but to me it's just another term. In the LSWC curriculums I have covered, we have 'Gin (front) Pien (angle) and Juk (side) San methods, and I would have thought if I wanted a version to be called 'Side Body' the term would be 'Juk San WingChun'?

Maybe what we're looking at here is a different character for 'Pien', but I doubt it.

A contributor to the wingchunkuen forum suggests that the Fung Family Pien San Wing Chun is characterized by their use of Chuk Ging. Has anyone any thoughts on this? Does anyone actually practice this 'Chuk Ging'?

Check out the thread here: http://www.wingchunkuen.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=940

[KPM]

This is a question I was hoping for others to answer! I'm not saying anything has been added.

---My opinion and my opinion only........There has been some WCK taught in the past that was based mostly on standing square to the opponent and going right up the middle to overwhelm his defenses. Very little pivoting or angling was used. I've heard it said that this was Chan Wah Shun's approach because he was a big strong guy and could get away with it easily. This would be "square body" WCK...in a sense. "Side body" refers to the shifted position where one shoulder is further forward than the other (not square). So you could say that in contrast to the "square on" "up the middle" approach, the Pien San approach is to stand in a "shifted" position and use angles. But very few modern WCK practitioners use the "square on" approach. Most sifu teach and use angling. This may be what has given rise to the idea that Yip Man's WCK includes "Pien San". It doesn't necessarily mean that Yip Man learned WCK from Ku Lo village and incorporated it into his system. It just means that his system has more options than just standing square to the opponent and charging up the middle.

[Ultimatewingchun]

So okay, let me add a tidbit of information on this topic that actually raises more questions than it answers - but what do you expect...this is wing chun! :rolleyes:

To begin, whether you believe it or not, William Cheung has always claimed that his "side body" Traditional Wing Chun was taught to him by Yip Man privately. Now hold that thought for a second....

and let's switch our focus to Moy Yat, another Yip Man student (I spent 8 years training with him). He taught the "square body" stance with some angling. Period.

However, there is one (and only one) photograph that appeared in one of his books that needs some pondering. The book was entitled KUNG FU FOR YOUNG PEOPLE and was published by Moy Yat himself (very few copies were made). It was done somewhere between September, 1973 and May, 1975. (When I joined in May, 1975 the book was already in existence - and Moy Yat came to America in September, 1973).

And the photos in the book are of John Cheng (Moy 4), Douglas Lee (Lee Moy Shan) - both American students of Moy...and a few photos of John's girlfriend at the time - and all of the photos entail these three people doing various aspects/moves of wing chun. (Ving Tsun)

In one sequence of photos wherein John's girl is demonstrating several wing chun stances...there's a pic of her in what is clearly a side body stance.

In all my 8 years (and from what I've seen of Moy Yat's wing chun from others who trained with him after I left)...I've NEVER seen a side body stance being used.

So where did Moy Yat get it from?

And did he really know how to use it?

I think we'll never know.

And btw....even though Moy wrote the book it was published under Douglas Lee's name (since he did most of the bankrolling of the book).

[YungChun]

Anything like this?
http://www.moyyat.com/images/myjm1965.jpg

I remember him teaching something called Battle punches, or something like that, and it resembled a side stance like this..

[sanjuro_ronin]

Anything like this?
http://www.moyyat.com/images/myjm1965.jpg

I remember him teaching something called Battle punches, or something like that, and it resembled a side stance like this..

Ok, that just looks so stereotypical !

[YungChun]

Ok, that just looks so stereotypical !
Stereotypical Of?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Stereotypical Of?

An asian with a camera in a MA stance !

[YungChun]

An asian with a camera in a MA stance !
Okay..........

Well in this case that "Asian" is the late Grandmaster MoyYat and he isn't holding a camera.. :p:D

[sanjuro_ronin]

Okay..........

Well in this case that "Asian" is the late Grandmaster MoyYat and he isn't holding a camera.. :p:D

Looks like a camera...good form by the way :)

[Dale Dugas]

Where is Jim Roselando when you need him?

[Ultimatewingchun]

Jim, I believe you posted a different photo than you probably meant to. Check it again.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Unless you're referring to the moving stance he taught (with punches) that was meant to train the dragon pole horse stance. That's probably it. But that's not the side body stance.

[KPM]

To begin, whether you believe it or not, William Cheung has always claimed that his "side body" Traditional Wing Chun was taught to him by Yip Man privately. Now hold that thought for a second....

and let's switch our focus to Moy Yat, another Yip Man student (I spent 8 years training with him). He taught the "square body" stance with some angling. Period.

---When I started learning WCK back in 1983 from this forum's very own Joy Chaudhuri, the "side body" position and use of a pivot to get there was predominant. Joy taught me Augustine Fong's curriculum, and the same was true when I had the opportunity to learn from Master Fong directly. Augustine Fong makes heavy use of the "side body" positioning. I can only assume the same is true of his teacher...Ho Kam Ming, who learned directly from Yip Man. This is why those original magazine articles that William Cheung wrote years and years ago explaining why he was right and everyone else was wrong really turned me off on him and his system for many years to come. In those articles he showed pictures of the "wrong" way....which was the "straight body" approach mentioned previously. In the pictures of the "right way" he showed a pivoted rather than square on alignment and the use of angles. This confused me, since the WCK that I was learning made full use of such pivoting and angling and did NOT do what Cheung labeled as "wrong." I don't know about Moy Yat's WCK, but Augustine Fong's WCK (and by implication Ho Kam Ming's WCK) includes a heavy component of what we have been referring to generically on this thread as "Pien San".

[YungChun]

Unless you're referring to thw stance he taught (with punches) wthat was meant to tain the dragon pole horse stance. That's probably it.But that's not the side body stance.
I know Tom had changed the photo for url redirect a while ago but it sounds like the correct pic. . The picture is of MY in a side stance with an extended v punch..

I know he did teach something called battle punching from a similar stance.. I don't know too much about the technique though. Did he teach that when you were there? Otherwise perhaps Tom or someone else knows more about it..

[Ultimatewingchun]

Jim,

Yes, he taught it - and it looked like what's seen in the photo.

..............................


KPM,

Interesting about Ho Kam Ming's side body stuff. But I'd be interested in the details of how it was used - compared to how it's taught and used in TWC.

[Vajramusti]

Semantics? I dont care to argue but IMO neither Masters Fong or Ho do any side body Pien San wing chun in the Joseph Cheng/Lee Sing sense of the word.. Neither do I. When the details of the structure and the dynamics of the footwork is right- good square body work can go through, past or around defenses.Square body principles can continue through chum kiu and bue gee.
Square body does not mean being robotic. No put downs intended.

joy chaudhuri

[Vajramusti]

Square body can give as much angling as is needed and provides considerable versatility
in using the body flexibly and effectively. One of the almost hopelessly big confusions in these discussions is the lack of distinction between developnment and application.

joy chaudhuri

[LoneTiger108]

I know he did teach something called battle punching from a similar stance.. I don't know too much about the technique though. Did he teach that when you were there? Otherwise perhaps Tom or someone else knows more about it..

Firstly, I'd like to thank everyone who has contributed here so far. This is turning out to be a good discussion at least, let's try and keep it that way!

Hey YungChun! You mention this 'battle punching' and I have to say I have also heard this term, albeit we referred to it as 'Battle Fist' or 'Arrow Fistwork'.

It is, to my understanding, a *side body method using one arm to strike at long range the high/mid/low paths 'at once'. Fundamentally, this method allows a student to drill single-hand fistwork by utilising the original 'seeds' of Wing Chun ie. Bong/High, Tan/Mid and Fook/Low. Also a mandatory 'Wall/Sand Bag' practice in LSWC.

I also believe that this is one of the 12 Horses (according to Rene Ritchies archive) called 'Saam Jiin Choi' or 3 Arrow Punching: http://www.wingchunkuen.com/modules.php?name=Encyclopedia&op=content&tid=30

NOTE: *Side Body I am talking of is 'Juk San', almost a 90 degree angle from your central line. Of course this method can also be used in Pin/Gin San but the move I remember works at its best in 'Sei Pin Ma', as with a poles first set.

[LoneTiger108]

Square body can give as much angling as is needed and provides considerable versatility
in using the body flexibly and effectively. One of the almost hopelessly big confusions in these discussions is the lack of distinction between developnment and application.

joy chaudhuri

This is a similar way of expressing what I was trying to say earlier Joy, IMO. The angling you refer to here, to me, is all Gin/Pien/Juk San. The square body is referred to as 'Chiu Ying'/facing shadows in the LSWC I have seen.

[KPM]

Semantics?

---Very likely! That's why I was trying to describe what I meant in prior posts. Its hard to know what people mean by "Pien San" without seeing what they are doing.

IMO neither Masters Fong or Ho do any side body Pien San wing chun in the Joseph Cheng/Lee Sing sense of the word.. Neither do I.

---I agree! I was just trying to make sense of the claim that Yip Man's WCK contains Pien San. I think the statement is true, if you take "Pien San" to refer to the idea of pivoting the stance with one shoulder forward when doing something like Tan Da, rather than staying square to the opponent with neither shoulder in front of the other. But this is just my speculation.

[Vajramusti]

I dont do Pien San structurally. Its square body. Angling, the way I am using the term
involves finding lines of attack and defense within a square body but dynamic structure.
You can adjust your man sao in good structures without shifting to Lee Sing or Joseph Cheng
formations. I understand your loyalty to Lee Sing approach but it isnt there IMO at least among Ip man students who spent quality time with Ip man from what I can tell. I speak for myself..
Folks are welcome to their own opinions on what they see.

jung sum sin straight, shoulders square in practicing chum kiu. You can adjust the man sao formation with little movements in square body wing chun without doing slant body.In a real time application or event one adjusts to what is there. Whena cars wheels are being aligned--
the wheels are held stable .When not on the rack.... When quickly in motion one can trurn the wheels with steering
quickly to change directions and point toa different direction.

From what I have seen of Cheng's pictures and Goh's we do things quite differently.

I dont criticize in net forums how others want to do their structure. You might want to check out the article on stability and motion in chum kiu in the current issue (Volume 16, number 4) of
the Journal of Asian Martial Arts just out..

The nature of perception and inference can affect what one "sees" even if it is in front of them.
I wasnt going to respond but I wanted to comment on the "labellings" of side body, pien san etc.
The tyrranny of words.

[sifu garry]

Hi to everyone,
I have spent the last 2 years travelling to china, training and doing chi sao with the KuLo wing chun villagers and have been vary privelidged to spend some hours with grandmaster Fung Chun at his house at KuLo village. I was also very honoured to spend a week training with Fung Keun this year, training the KuLo Pien Sun Sup Yee Lo, 12 sets training.

please go to;
www.shaolinjeeshinwingchun.com.au/jeeshin/wing_chun_kung_fu_videos.html
to view some rare footage of GM Fung Chun and Master Fung Keun

enjoy

[Ultimatewingchun]

Garry,

The wing chun on the link you showed (Shaolin Jee shin wing chun) - with just some minor variations - is the same as the Traditional Wing Chun I've learned all these years (since August, 1983) with William Cheung.

The double arm chi sao.
The cross arm (chi sao) sparring.
The bil jee form that the woman performed.

...................................

Furthermore, there's a very young guy demoing bil jee on a separate vid on the same link - with the following written underneath the title:

"shaolin jee shin wing chun kung fu student performs bil gee at kung fu tournament, which is being judged by William Cheung. www.shaolinjeeshinwingchun.com. "

DIDN'T SEE WILLIAM CHEUNG IN THE VID - BUT IF TRUE...I DON'T KNOW WHAT TO MAKE OF IT!

[drleungjohn]

Hey Vic-thanks for the background on that book-very interesting-it stillis one of my favorite books-I have a hard cover copy

1-Whatever happened to that girl? Where is she now?
2-The sidehorse posture was taught at LMS school too-but not predominantly like in Cheung version-and while Fong, WSL,Lee Shing do have it-I would agree-how is it used vs TWC

And since we are on antique books-who was the guy that demo'd in MY's Wooden Dummy book and whatever became of him?

[Ultimatewingchun]

His name was Anthony something-or-other but he was before my time. I have the book but I never met him. I remember Moy Yat saying that he just posed for the photos - but didn't actually know the WD.

[KPM]

Thanks for the videos! I appreciate you sharing those with us!:)



Hi to everyone,
I have spent the last 2 years travelling to china, training and doing chi sao with the KuLo wing chun villagers and have been vary privelidged to spend some hours with grandmaster Fung Chun at his house at KuLo village. I was also very honoured to spend a week training with Fung Keun this year, training the KuLo Pien Sun Sup Yee Lo, 12 sets training.

please go to;
www.shaolinjeeshinwingchun.com.au/jeeshin/wing_chun_kung_fu_videos.html
to view some rare footage of GM Fung Chun and Master Fung Keun

enjoy

[drleungjohn]

But there is a hot oriental Wing Chun girl out there somewhere-

[LoneTiger108]

I dont do Pien San structurally. Its square body. Angling, the way I am using the term involves finding lines of attack and defense within a square body but dynamic structure. You can adjust your man sao in good structures without shifting to Lee Sing or Joseph Cheng formations. I understand your loyalty to Lee Sing approach but it isnt there IMO at least among Ip man students who spent quality time with Ip man from what I can tell. I speak for myself. Folks are welcome to their own opinions on what they see...

...I wasnt going to respond but I wanted to comment on the "labellings" of side body, pien san etc.

This is interesting Joy, as you seem to reaffirm what I'm thinking. The 'label' I commonly see is in direct reference to a 'Lee Shing' method or approach or look. I seriously feel that I learnt the way you describe.

Listen, I'm not trying to point out the obvious, but all Wing Chun uses a square body, or 'Jin San' structure IMHO and what I see within this structure are angles which include square, angled and sideways movements. This is how I trained. Of course, there is also a Pien San structure, AND a Juk San structure, all of which ALSO contain square, angles and sideways movements. Common YJKYM practice if you ask me!

If Lee Shing is more commonly known for his Angled Body Structure, then I must have missed something in my training. No 'preference' was ever taught to me as we literally trained as much as we could to find our own way. I did like the safety net certain angles offered me, being a little lad, but I also liked the toe-to-toe approach. Lee Shings 'personal preferences' are known by very few people, and some would say that they are portrayed in HIS 'Dai Nim Tao form. This too is hard to agree with, as there are massive similarities in comparison to the Yuen Kay San/Fung Family 12 Set methods. It's just difference in purpose I feel. Some sets, if not all, are superb for learning how to teach the first three forms, for example.

I also never understood why this 12 Set Method or Dai Nim Tao form justified 'labelling' a system as 'Side Body'. To me, leading with a shoulder indicates a search/strike method and standing square on is a manipulation/control method. All are heavily used in Wing Chun, and although practitioners develop individual preferences we owe it to ourselves to be a little more open minded. Before we started to see the Foshan/Guandong/Gulao families, Lee Shing had already spread his teachings throughout the UK & Europe.

For the record, if mainland variations are so popular now, why are people so quick to put Lee Shing into the 'Fung Family' Box? He was a very accomplished Martial Artsist in his own right and as a representative of the Ip Family, I would like to know more about Ng Jung So, to be honest, among others. Even as late as 1997, when I first demonstrated the Pole Form publically, we were slammed by so many people for NOT even being Wing Chun!! Now, with all the new imports I bet those same people are eating their words!

LEE SHING FAMILY WING CHUN IS NOT PIEN SAN WING CHUN, FUNG FAMILY WING CHUN OR IP MAN WING CHUN!!

IT'S SIMPLY LEE SHING FAMILY WING CHUN. PERPETUATED BY A VERY SMALL NUMBER OF DEDICATED PRACTITIONERS.

There! I said my piece. Mission complete. Time to retire...

[KPM]

Hey Spencer!

Listen, I'm not trying to point out the obvious, but all Wing Chun uses a square body, or 'Jin San' structure IMHO and what I see within this structure are angles which include square, angled and sideways movements. This is how I trained. Of course, there is also a Pien San structure, AND a Juk San structure, all of which ALSO contain square, angles and sideways movements. Common YJKYM practice if you ask me!

---Sounds like you are saying what I said! :D My point was that because of this fact, people may have seen the angled positions and movements in Yip Man WCK and called it "Pien San" when it really had nothing to do with the art from Ku Lo village. Hence the answer to your original question. ;)

I also never understood why this 12 Set Method or Dai Nim Tao form justified 'labelling' a system as 'Side Body'.

---I have to say, that having formally studied the Pien San system, I also did not see what justified labeling it as "Side Body."

LEE SHING FAMILY WING CHUN IS NOT PIEN SAN WING CHUN, FUNG FAMILY WING CHUN OR IP MAN WING CHUN!!
IT'S SIMPLY LEE SHING FAMILY WING CHUN. PERPETUATED BY A VERY SMALL NUMBER OF DEDICATED PRACTITIONERS.
There! I said my piece. Mission complete. Time to retire...

---I have no problem with that statement. That's how it should be! Most prominent well-known sifu have made their own changes and adaptations to their WCK.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Her name was Aimey - but John wound up marrying someone else. But that was over 30 years ago - so Aimey probably has moved on by now! :)

[LoneTiger108]

... Finally, someone who (I think) is understanding me! :D

Ooops! Gotta get back to my hermit cave, I'm in retirement ;)

[Vajramusti]

Hi Lone Tiger- I think that you have done a good job in explaining Lee Sing Wing Chun.
Good wishes

joy chaudhuri

[Jim Roselando]

TiFei wrote,


I also never understood why this 12 Set Method or Dai Nim Tao form justified 'labelling' a system as 'Side Body'.

You should visit or get in touch with our UK rep. He can help clear up any confusion for you especially since he spent a decade studying your LSWC system before PSWC proper. JR


TiFei wrote:

LEE SHING FAMILY WING CHUN IS NOT PIEN SAN WING CHUN, FUNG FAMILY WING CHUN OR IP MAN WING CHUN!!
IT'S SIMPLY LEE SHING FAMILY WING CHUN.

Totally Agreed JR

[Ultimatewingchun]

"IT'S SIMPLY LEE SHING FAMILY WING CHUN." (Jim Roselando)


***ANY history on it, Jim? It looks remarkably similar to TWC. Where does it come from? Who was Lee Shing? Who did he learn from, etc?

[Jim Roselando]

Vic,

"IT'S SIMPLY LEE SHING FAMILY WING CHUN." (Jim Roselando)

Spencer wrote that. JR


***ANY history on it, Jim?

I wrote some stuff on Rene's site not long ago. The topics were recently made fresh when Spencer started asking about Pin Sun and Lee Shing related topics. JR

It looks remarkably similar to TWC.

If you are judging Gary and his Wife's performance I will say you are watching TWC. They are from Aussie and from Bill Cheung's family but now training some mainland systems like PS from what his web site states. JR

Where does it come from? Who was Lee Shing? Who did he learn from, etc?

Rene's site has a good write up on Lee Shing and his background. He trained some Pin Sun Wing Chun under Fung Sang sifu and then he trained with some Yip pupils like Lok Yiu and Yip Man himself as well as some other Kung Fu arts more likely. JR

Hope this helps!

:)

[Ultimatewingchun]

"If you are judging Gary and his Wife's performance I will say you are watching TWC. They are from Aussie and from Bill Cheung's family but now training some mainland systems like PS from what his web site states." (JR)


***I'M not just taking about Gary and his wife....there were two other guys doing both chi sao and cross arm chi sao at random...and then there was the very young guy who performed bil jee form.

It all looked like TWC but all of it was labeled Jee Shing Family Wing Chun? :confused:

[Jim Roselando]

Hey Vic,


***I'M not just taking about Gary and his wife....there were two other guys doing both chi sao and cross arm chi sao at random...and then there was the very young guy who performed bil jee form.

I belive Gary visited Kulo with some of his students. I have not watched all the footage so I dont know what you watched but if you saw someone doing TWC drills and stuff like Biu Jee, then you know its not from the Pin Sun family. If its looks like TWC, its more likely TWC. JR

It all looked like TWC but all of it was labeled Jee Shing Family Wing Chun?

I have seen a few different groups from Bill Cheung's TWC start using different labels in front of their TWC Wing Chun name. I think some use the name Hung Suen after seeing HFY and Gary's group is using the Jee Shim label. Why? Dont know? I can only guess, and that guess would be TWC guys trying to link their art to other WC lineages? This speculation is based on Cheung sifu's TWC history not being able to be proven and students probally wanting some heritage to link to. Just an opinion. JR


Gotta run!

[Ultimatewingchun]

Hi to everyone,
I have spent the last 2 years travelling to china, training and doing chi sao with the KuLo wing chun villagers and have been vary privelidged to spend some hours with grandmaster Fung Chun at his house at KuLo village. I was also very honoured to spend a week training with Fung Keun this year, training the KuLo Pien Sun Sup Yee Lo, 12 sets training.

please go to;
www.shaolinjeeshinwingchun.com.au/jeeshin/wing_chun_kung_fu_videos.html
to view some rare footage of GM Fung Chun and Master Fung Keun

enjoy


***SO GARRY, you and your wife trained with William Cheung in Australia in TWC? Is that correct?

[Nick Forrer]

I have seen a few different groups from Bill Cheung's TWC start using different labels in front of their TWC Wing Chun name. I think some use the name Hung Suen after seeing HFY and Gary's group is using the Jee Shim label. Why? Dont know? I can only guess, and that guess would be TWC guys trying to link their art to other WC lineages? This speculation is based on Cheung sifu's TWC history not being able to be proven and students probally wanting some heritage to link to. Just an opinion. JR
!


They probably realised having seen leung jans art as it was passed down to the villagers in Gulao that it was nothing like the TWC they learnt in Australia and therefore realised how fishy the 'TWC comes from Leung Jan's son' story is.

BTW Jim how is Gulao pronounced? Goo-lao or Gor-lao?

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,

BTW Jim how is Gulao pronounced? Goo-lao or Gor-lao? Nick

Sounds like:

In the village they speak a Village dialect of Cantonese. They and my sifu pronounce it in a way that sounds like:

Goo-Lo

Lo is similar in English to the word "Low" (being the opposite of "High")

We all write it; "Kulo" these days :)

Hope this makes sense?

Gulao is not Cantonese but the standard rominization used today.


Peace,

[LoneTiger108]

You should visit or get in touch with our UK rep. He can help clear up any confusion for you especially since he spent a decade studying your LSWC system before PSWC proper. JR

I have yet to contact him yet Jim, as this season is still so busy. I did meet up at the weekend with some students who recall Rob and the Welsh crew. We spent the day at The British Museum in London and visited the famous 'First Emperor Exhibition'! A great day, and I aim to continue meeting with others next year.

Something for you to consider Jim is your UK rep is now your student, it really doesn't matter how long he was LSWC before becoming PSWC proper(?) as I can guarantee that he did not learn as I did. Guarantee! If he is interested in finding out more about LSWC I would be happy to meet with him and exchange. I am very interested in the Kulo lineage, as I feel we also have a strong connection to Leung Jan himself.

One thing I do know about Lee Shing is that he was a great advocote of 'study'! I learnt this from my Sifu, who was regarded as Lee Shings 'Gung Fu Son' and had a nickname like 'Crazy Joe' or something ;)

I, and others, were taught from Chinese literature first, something I know other LSWC Sifu do not do. This does change things massively IMO, and it is not meant as a dig to anyone who has never done this. It was just the way, and the time, for my Sifu to teach like that to westerners. It all 'felt' right and I believe we may have been the first from the LSWC Family to learn in this way. I'm waiting to hear if there are others!

Wing Chun is a language in itself, and personal interpretation should not alter its core principles and foundation knowledge IMHHHHO. We're all the same at our core we just express our ideas differently.

This is where the 'Pien San' label turns my stomach as it's claiming to have 'new' things that are different than everyone else! Unless what you're saying Jim is that ALL the San Sau is taught with this angled body structure and there is no 'Chiu Yin' or 'square body' applications from Fung Sang at all? Then the name makes sense. The label Kulo Wing Chun is just as bad IMO as it's like us saying we're 'London Wing Chun'! Surely someone can clear this up without me having a phonecall or training session??!

How do all the mainland Families get on with HK Families anyway? Do they meet and exchange at all? Or are they as competitive as their brothers around the world!? :rolleyes:

[CFT]

Nick, Jim,

I hope your browsers have Chinese language support switched on. I've got a few links to some Chinese University of Hong Kong web pages. There are audio clips which show how each character is pronounced.

Gu/Ku:
http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/cgi-bin/canton-new.pl?query=%a5%6a
http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexis/Canton/sound/gu2.wav

Lao/Lo/Lou: http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/cgi-bin/canton-new.pl?query=%b3%d2
http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexis/Canton/sound/lou4.wav
http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexis/Canton/sound/lou6.wav

There are 2 pronunciations for "Lo". I thought it was the first one (lou4) that was applicable in "Gulao"/"Kulo", but from Jim's description it might be the second one (lou6). Hopefully Jim can have a listen and provide feedback.

------------
Best wishes,
Chee.

[LoneTiger108]

Nick, Jim,

I hope your browsers have Chinese language support switched on.

Hey CFT! Thanks for a decent language site.

If only it were available to me back in the day, it would've saved so much tme :(

[Jim Roselando]

Spencer,

This is where the 'Pien San' label turns my stomach as it's claiming to have 'new' things that are different than everyone else!

Really? Intersting that this bothers you so much since many of your Lee Shing family call their entire art Pin Sun (including the Yip training) and claim Pin Sun to be their so-called highest "secrets". Could it be something so simple that its just a label for the arts Signature? :eek: JR

Unless what you're saying Jim is that ALL the San Sau is taught with this angled body structure and there is no 'Chiu Yin' or 'square body' applications from Fung Sang at all? Then the name makes sense.

Bingo! Although some training does have exercises where both are directly in front of each other, mainly in the early/foundation practice, all application follows the above rule. So, if you see a Side Body guy doing a Facing Tan Da with Sun punch (one example) you will know thats not PSWC. JR

The label Kulo Wing Chun is just as bad IMO as it's like us saying we're 'London Wing Chun'! Surely someone can clear this up without me having a phonecall or training session??!

What about the label for "Lee Shing" you place in front of your WC? Surely that is just as frustrating to you or are you just looking at other arts labels. All arts use some kind of name in front of Wing Chun because it may be a lineage that has Signatures or some heritage that they want to give some credit to. Similar to Yuen or Yip or Cho or.... They are Wing Chun but with credit given to the main gatekeepers of the art. In Pin Sun family we have direct quotes from Leung Jan that state HE called the art Pin Sun and the practitioners outside the village Jing Sun WC. Dont let the names bother you. I suggest meeting and talking with your LS cousin as it gives you a better understanding. I recommend you meeting and Feeling him as you will then know the difference in Engine from the interaction. Thats where the main difference lay! Nothing can give you more info than first hand experience. JR

In a few weeks I will post some info on a little project i am working on. I will send you some info when its nearly done. Which it is!!!! I'm positive it will give you a better understanding of Leung Jan's PSWC.

Until then!

Peace,

[LoneTiger108]

Spencer,

I said "This is where the 'Pien San' label turns my stomach as it's claiming to have 'new' things that are different than everyone else!"

Really? Intersting that this bothers you so much since many of your Lee Shing family call their entire art Pin Sun (including the Yip training) and claim Pin Sun to be their so-called highest "secrets". Could it be something so simple that its just a label for the arts Signature? :eek: What about the label for "Lee Shing" you place in front of your WC? Surely that is just as frustrating to you or are you just looking at other arts labels. JR

EXACTLY my point Jim :D Even our own get confused sometimes. If it's all about 'signatures' though, the LSWC I trained is not PSWC, although the way it's excecuted in combat IS like described we also 'use' Jin San (square body) just as much. Others can chat all they like, as most of them are older than me. And MANY of the LS Family 'have called' their art PSWC because of marketting and misunderstanding IMO. Kulo was again, IMO, another way for us to attach ourselves to the mainland by yet another of my Uncles. Let's not forget that these 'Uncles' I talk of were, for some reason tbc, barred from joining the Ip Family organisations in HK.

There is, as far as I'm aware NO Lee Shing Wing Chun association, organisation or school in existence today. I personally have used the term loosely here, and on other forums, to generalize our whole family as it's the only way I feel does us all justice. Just my opinion, and I'm sure people will come and chat to me if they need to.

Do I know Lee Shings Salutation? Hmmm, I'll let you guess...


I said "Unless what you're saying Jim is that ALL the San Sau is taught with this angled body structure and there is no 'Chiu Yin' or 'square body' applications from Fung Sang at all? Then the name makes sense."

Bingo! Although some training does have exercises where both are directly in front of each other, mainly in the early/foundation practice, all application follows the above rule. So, if you see a Side Body guy doing a Facing Tan Da with Sun punch (one example) you will know thats not PSWC. JR

THANK YOU!! I've waited for this response and clarification for a long time! This is what I remember being taught as Pien San Ma.


In a few weeks I will post some info on a little project i am working on. I will send you some info when its nearly done. Which it is!!!! I'm positive it will give you a better understanding of Leung Jan's PSWC.

I am looking forward to it Jim, and sure it will help me understand where you're coming from. I just wonder if you have any interest at all in what I am saying about Lee Shing. You are aware that my Sihing and I used a 32 point system to open our Academy here in London almost 5 years ago, aren't you?

I just get the feeling you think I've been training for only 2 years or something...

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


EXACTLY my point Jim Even our own get confused sometimes. If it's all about 'signatures' though, the LSWC I trained is not PSWC, although the way it's excecuted in combat IS like described we also 'use' Jin San (square body) just as much.

I know. ;) You guys are all similar. Just watch the old clip from Joe Lee. Its classic LSWC. This is not unusual or exclusive to LS BTW. Yuen system does sup yi sic which uses more turning/angling and Yuen futshan proper stuff which is Jing Sun. JR

And MANY of the LS Family 'have called' their art PSWC because of marketting and misunderstanding IMO. Kulo was again, IMO, another way for us to attach ourselves to the mainland by yet another of my Uncles.

I dont care what people call their art. Getting frustrated over a Label is a waste of time. Who cares? If its ok with Leung Jan, and others ancestors like Sum Nung and the Cho, then its ok with me. JR

Let's not forget that these 'Uncles' I talk of were, for some reason tbc, barred from joining the Ip Family organisations in HK.

I'm not interested in the Lee Shing family skeletons/politics. JR


I am looking forward to it Jim, and sure it will help me understand where you're coming from.

:)

I just wonder if you have any interest at all in what I am saying about Lee Shing. You are aware that my Sihing and I used a 32 point system to open our Academy here in London almost 5 years ago, aren't you?

Am I interested in what you are saying? Yes and No. Why? From what i have read you are not saying anything different from other LS decendants. And, you have not shown any examples of your direct transmission LS art that make it any different from other LS. Maybe you need to get deeper into what makes "Your" Lee Shing tick. The deeper you talk, the deeper other respond. JR

I just get the feeling you think I've been training for only 2 years or something...

To be honest, I am not thinking about your level at all. :eek: Your asking all sorts of Kulo/Pin Sun questions and then I tell you of a local guy to chat/possibly experience if you want? In your own region. I would jump on the chance but thats me! The only thing I do know is you said; you have never met "one" Kulo lineage besides your own LS clan, so I think the more exposure the better understanding of the art you can gain and then our conversation can get better details.

I have to run but am going back to lurk mode after I listen to those Chinese sounds. I will post a thread soon regarding the project. It should be ready to go within a few weeks. Actually, a few days if I am not too busy at work.

Thanks for the chat.

[LoneTiger108]

Thank you for sharing your insights. Looks like next year will be a good one!

As I mentioned in a previous post, there is a Sifu Tong Liu who is also teaching LSWC in Liverpool. He is possibly the only commercial school to claim Joseph Cheng lineage in the UK.

Here's his profile:

http://www.wingchunmaster.com/Sifu%20Tong.html

The 'Family Tree' is very interesting IMHO...

[CFT]

I have to run but am going back to lurk mode after I listen to those Chinese sounds.Jim, can you tell us whether it is lou4 or lou6?

[LoneTiger108]

Maybe, with your linguistics you could assist me in my other thread?

Please have a look and contribute...

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=48517&page=10

[LoneTiger108]

http://www.w1ng.com/author/antony-casella/

Some excellent clips and articles on YKS/Sum Nung Pien San Wing Chun.

[CFT]

Maybe, with your linguistics you could assist me in my other thread?

Please have a look and contribute...

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=48517&page=10Spencer, I've replied on the other thread.

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


Sifu Tong Liu stuff:

He does a lot of martial art. Including Jook Lum Gee Nam Tong Long. This system is known for cultivating Gan Tun Geng. They utilize many solo and partner exercises that condition the body MUCH different from Wing Chun. One is Rou Jing and the other is Not. The Dip Gwat Gong (bone/rib work) of South Mantis is famous but certainly different. The resulting conditioning of Jook Lum art will have reverse effects on Wing Chun. Different animals. The body stucture, one is hard bow 3 Step base and the other is not. This doesn't mean you cant do both but you wont get a good idea about PSWC Chuk Ging from someone who does Jook Lum. I'm sure he is talented but I am just talking art specifics.

BTW: Jook Lum is my second love in Chinese fighting arts. I dont study anymore but thinks its great but certainly not Rou. JR

Antony Casella on W1NG.com!


Some excellent clips and articles on YKS/Sum Nung Pien San Wing Chun.

*

These are nice clips. Its been a long time since I have seen Anthony.

This is not Pin Sun Wing Chun even tho they turn/angle. Its Sum Nung's Sup Yi Sic. Pin Sun Wing Chun is not just short series of Fighting Techniques. Its more like a condensed SLT/CK/BJ or super mini set done with pre-wong wah bo principles/gong. Similar but different. Pin Sun Wing Chun is Pin Sun Wing Chun and Yuen system Sup Yi Sic is Sup Yi Sic. Both are Wing Chun but with different design/principles. Just because both have the same Numerology (12) that doesn't mean they are the same. Hope that helps.

Gotta run!


:)

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,

There are 2 pronunciations for "Lo". I thought it was the first one (lou4) that was applicable in "Gulao"/"Kulo", but from Jim's description it might be the second one (lou6). Hopefully Jim can have a listen and provide feedback.

I listened to all of them. Maybe its because I am not used to hearing a Woman's voice say Kulo, so it was hard to tell. The Lo (2nd/3rd more so than first) were close but the Ku did not sound the same. It could be the woman's voice and the length of the sound she uses to say Kulo. Kulo is a Harsh village Cantonese and I am sure if your not from Kulo you will not have the same accent. If you listen to Old Fung Sifu speak on youtube, you can hear how harsh he sounds.

Sorry I could not be more help. I dont speak Chinese! :)

*
This was written to me just this week from someone visiting Kulo:

Most villages have a dialect somewhat different from standard Cantonese...ie. the Fungs speak Fung Hua ..Fung language...I didn't recognize any Hakka language Hua. And no one there is Hakka, they said. All were Canton (Guangdong) folks. I can catch a bit of Cantonese. The younger folks all there speak Mandarin, Guoyu, Putonghua (three names for the same) and with this, I can communicate. Now, these days, they (Kulo elders) said most younger folks speak that, instead of Cantonese.

Hope this helps!

See ya!

[sifu garry]

***SO GARRY, you and your wife trained with William Cheung in Australia in TWC? Is that correct?

I did train with William Cheung sifu for 6 years, the last 18 months full time and my wife trained with him for one year.
Then, we spent the next 4 years full time, training with David Cheung Yui Kwok, whom is William's brother and trained under Wong Shun Leung for 10 years in Hong Kong.

[sifu garry]

The biu gee demonstartion is just that, a demo. I have incpororated some breathing methods (hard qigong reverse tan tien breathing) and a low horse stance for aesthetics.

That form has won several Australian All Styles Titles, and yes, William was there judging it, as it was his tournament.

sifu garry

[sifu garry]

***SO GARRY, you and your wife trained with William Cheung in Australia in TWC? Is that correct?

I did train with William Cheung sifu for 6 years, the last 18 months full time and my wife trained with him for one year.
Then, we spent the next 4 years full time, training with David Cheung Yui Kwok, whom is William's brother and trained under Wong Shun Leung for 10 years in Hong Kong.

cheers
sifu garry

[sifu garry]

Garry,

The wing chun on the link you showed (Shaolin Jee shin wing chun) - with just some minor variations - is the same as the Traditional Wing Chun I've learned all these years (since August, 1983) with William Cheung.

The double arm chi sao.
The cross arm (chi sao) sparring.
The bil jee form that the woman performed.

...................................

Furthermore, there's a very young guy demoing bil jee on a separate vid on the same link - with the following written underneath the title:

"shaolin jee shin wing chun kung fu student performs bil gee at kung fu tournament, which is being judged by William Cheung. www.shaolinjeeshinwingchun.com. "

DIDN'T SEE WILLIAM CHEUNG IN THE VID - BUT IF TRUE...I DON'T KNOW WHAT TO MAKE OF IT!

biu gee demonstration

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The biu gee demonstartion is just that, a demo. I have incpororated some breathing methods (hard qigong reverse tan tien breathing) and a low horse stance for aesthetics.

That form has won several Australian All Styles Titles, and yes, William was there judging it, as it was his tournament.

sifu garry

[sifu garry]

Thanks for all the interesting comments and questions, lately. Acquiring knowledge about wing chun, its history and talking to like minded people is a pleasure.

I would be very grateful if any of you intellectual people would post some interesting and relevant questions, and comments, on my forum.

You can access the jee shin forum, by the link below:


www.shaolinjeeshinwingchun.com.au/jeeshin/wing_chun_about_us.html

Ask me about anything wing chun.
Talk about KuLo wing chun or ask me a question.
Ask me about China mainland wing chun.
Tell me about yourself and your wing chun training.
Lets talk about wing chun in combat.

I look forward to interacting with you.

cheers
sifu garry

[Ultimatewingchun]

I dont do Pien San structurally. Its square body. Angling, the way I am using the term
involves finding lines of attack and defense within a square body but dynamic structure.
You can adjust your man sao in good structures without shifting to Lee Sing or Joseph Cheng
formations. I understand your loyalty to Lee Sing approach but it isnt there IMO at least among Ip man students who spent quality time with Ip man from what I can tell. I speak for myself..
Folks are welcome to their own opinions on what they see.

jung sum sin straight, shoulders square in practicing chum kiu. You can adjust the man sao formation with little movements in square body wing chun without doing slant body.In a real time application or event one adjusts to what is there. Whena cars wheels are being aligned--
the wheels are held stable .When not on the rack.... When quickly in motion one can trurn the wheels with steering
quickly to change directions and point toa different direction.

From what I have seen of Cheng's pictures and Goh's we do things quite differently.

I dont criticize in net forums how others want to do their structure. You might want to check out the article on stability and motion in chum kiu in the current issue (Volume 16, number 4) of
the Journal of Asian Martial Arts just out..

The nature of perception and inference can affect what one "sees" even if it is in front of them.
I wasnt going to respond but I wanted to comment on the "labellings" of side body, pien san etc.
The tyrranny of words.


***READ Joy's article in the "Journal" while at Barnes & Nobles yesterday. Don't agree with some of his points - but overall a good article on the nature of chum kiu in particular and wing chun in general.

[Vajramusti]

Yes- not surprising that there will be different perspectives and opinions.

Internet forum "threads" are too choppy and zig zagging to explain perspectives clearly.

joy chaudhuri

[sifu garry]

Hey Vic,


***I'M not just taking about Gary and his wife....there were two other guys doing both chi sao and cross arm chi sao at random...and then there was the very young guy who performed bil jee form.

I belive Gary visited Kulo with some of his students. I have not watched all the footage so I dont know what you watched but if you saw someone doing TWC drills and stuff like Biu Jee, then you know its not from the Pin Sun family. If its looks like TWC, its more likely TWC. JR

It all looked like TWC but all of it was labeled Jee Shing Family Wing Chun?

I have seen a few different groups from Bill Cheung's TWC start using different labels in front of their TWC Wing Chun name. I think some use the name Hung Suen after seeing HFY and Gary's group is using the Jee Shim label. Why? Dont know? I can only guess, and that guess would be TWC guys trying to link their art to other WC lineages? This speculation is based on Cheung sifu's TWC history not being able to be proven and students probally wanting some heritage to link to. Just an opinion. JR


Gotta run!

Hi,
I originally called my system Jee Shin Wing Chun, to create an identity for myself, after studying wing chun for 10 years under William Cheung and David Cheung.

I am not part of William's association, therefore, an appropriate name was necessary.

There are many similar principles between KuLo wing chun and TWC, especially the blind side approach (parallel leg), and the central line theory (facing your point of contact).

I like your comments above, though.

cheers
sifu garry

[anerlich]

I think some use the name Hung Suen after seeing HFY and Gary's group is using the Jee Shim label.

My instructor uses Hung Suen name. We left the WWCKFA about the same time as HFY started marketing, and I think my instructor saw some parallels between that and what he did. His #1 student and Benny Meng collaborated on some articles early on.

Calling yourself "Red Boat" is hardly a stretch for just about any modern lineage.


Why? Dont know? I can only guess, and that guess would be TWC guys trying to link their art to other WC lineages? This speculation is based on Cheung sifu's TWC history not being able to be proven and students probally wanting some heritage to link to. Just an opinion.

We're not trying to hook up with HFY (heaven forbid!), but you're probably right about hoping for a more credible history ... though the jury's still out on credibility with HFY as much as TWC. No luck on that front, so it turned out.

[Jim Roselando]

Hello Gary,


There are many similar principles between KuLo wing chun and TWC, especially the blind side approach (parallel leg), and the central line theory (facing your point of contact).

*

I have a good friend in Bermuda who is from TWC organization. He has family in Boston and I get to see him once a year when he comes up. Yes, there are some similar principles between arts but they are two different animals.

Thanks for sharing clips of the Fung's! jr

*

[sifu garry]

Hello Gary,


There are many similar principles between KuLo wing chun and TWC, especially the blind side approach (parallel leg), and the central line theory (facing your point of contact).

*

I have a good friend in Bermuda who is from TWC organization. He has family in Boston and I get to see him once a year when he comes up. Yes, there are some similar principles between arts but they are two different animals.

Thanks for sharing clips of the Fung's! jr

*

Hi,
Is your friend in Bemuda named Delroi? If so, i would like his email address. I used to have it, then my PC crashed and I lost it.

2 different animals, but, the same trainer.

cheers
sifu garry

[Jim Roselando]

Gary,

E-mail me off-list and I will send it to you!

pinsunwck @ aol.com

(spam proof)

:)

[LoneTiger108]

It's great to actually see some decent dialogue and exchange between the Wing Chun Family!

Please continue throughout 2008...

[CFT]

I just found this link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZfTJTK5SRw) to a TV show which features Kulo Wing Chun. The village name is mentioned twice. The first time (1:46) is rather slurred and fast and sounds like lou4, but the second time (2:36) is very distinct and is in fact lou6.

Lou4 - http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexi...sound/lou4.wav
Lou6 - http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexi...sound/lou6.wav

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


Here is a link to GM Fung Chun talking about Yim Wing Chun and her Husband Leung. Leung studied what GM Fung call's; Old style Kung Fu with big horse:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aw9sphTMAY0

You can also here GM Fung pretty clearly so you can hear the Kulo village Cantonese.

:)

[LoneTiger108]

Great clip Jim!

The sort of thing that really deserves the subtitles though, don't you think?

[sifu garry]

Hello,


Here is a link to GM Fung Chun talking about Yim Wing Chun and her Husband Leung. Leung studied what GM Fung call's; Old style Kung Fu with big horse:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aw9sphTMAY0

You can also here GM Fung pretty clearly so you can hear the Kulo village Cantonese.

:)

Hi Jim,

Hope you had a happy new year. I looked for your contact details, but I had no luck. This is my email: sifugarry@optusnet.com.au

Last time I spoke to Delroi, he mentioned he had friends in Boston. I thought he would have contacted me by now. He was looking foward to my return from China, last november, so we could catch up. I lost his email due to me having to reformat my PC.

The video footage of fung chun talking about Yim Wing Chun is great. It just re affirms the true history, I believe. The guy with the Mo is me and the lady is my wife, Sifu Linda. Fung Chun went on to say later on that Linda is the only wing chun female to set foot in KuLo village. What an honour.
There are plenty of video footage of fung chun and fung keun on my site. Please link from:

www.shaolinjeeshinwingchun.com.au/jeeshin/wing_chun_about_us.html

We spent nearly 2 hours with Fung Chun, that day. I have about 2 hours of him talking on my Mp3 player, for translation one day.

On my forum: www.shaolinjeeshinwingchun.com.au/forum/

Sifu Lao performs SLT , for us, at Fung Keun's school. I know KuLo does not train SLT.
Fung Chun actually told us that Leung Jan kept the SLT and disregarded the other 2 forms. Fung Chun said that he never incorporated SLT into his system. Obviuosly, whether they train it or not, a leading Sifu does know it and practise it. Sifu Lao has trained under Fung Chun for 10 years and under fung Keun for 3 years.
Your thoughts on this would be welcome.

All the best
Sifu Garry

[LoneTiger108]

Fung Chun went on to say later on that Linda is the only wing chun female to set foot in KuLo village. What an honour.

Hey Garry! Did Fung chun mention why? I would have thought that he would have many female students seeing that everyone is talking of his art being softer than other versions.

Maybe the local girls just don't dig the Kung Fu eh...

Thanks for refreshing this topic though, as I feel that there is still much to be learnt here. We should be thinking of not what makes us different, but what makes us all the same imo.

[sifu garry]

Hey Garry! Did Fung chun mention why? I would have thought that he would have many female students seeing that everyone is talking of his art being softer than other versions.

Maybe the local girls just don't dig the Kung Fu eh...

Thanks for refreshing this topic though, as I feel that there is still much to be learnt here. We should be thinking of not what makes us different, but what makes us all the same imo.

Hi,
I have 3 hours of interview with Fung Chun on my Mp4 player. Hopefully, I will be able to get it translated, soon.

I have been 2 KuLo village twice so far and I have only seen 3 females. One was fung chun's wife and the other was a young teenager watches us do random chi sao with the KuLo villagers and the third was the cook at the Reataurant, where we sat with Fung Chun for nearly 2 hours.

I suppose there are not too many females in KuLo Village. The village is very isolated and remote. ShaPin is a little city, which is about a 20 minute drive from KuLo. There are more wing chun schools there and maybe some female practitioners.

The softness in KuLo is a form of qigong training. The softenss develops strong Chi with snappy Jing for application.

We are all the same big Family, with personal individual expressions, which makes wing chun very progressive.

Quote from wing chun masters in China:

"wing chun is a conceptual art. It is a prgressive art with individual expression, so it will differ from one school to the next"

Regards
Sifu Garry

[LoneTiger108]

Quote from wing chun masters in China:

"wing chun is a conceptual art. It is a progressive art with individual expression, so it will differ from one school to the next"

Again, this type of saying will always raise certain questions within my mind.

Conceptual? Progressive? Individual? Different?

As with the latest MMA trends, I've always been of the belief that individual expression is 'never' individual! You will not just 'come up' with your own ideas, you will take away the ideas that you do not like or don't work for you. So individual expression will always be less than an original imo. Similar to what Leung Jan accomplished for the wealthier students in Gulao when he retired? Selecting favourite technical info to share rather than core forms and knowledge.

What I'm looking for is familiar training ideals, not similar concepts. Most kuen kuit concepts can be interpretated differently, training ideals can not. They remain the same, there is never a 'new' or 'modern' form, just glimpses of the past that help us understand the core knowledge our style holds.

Wing Chun is a Family Style, not a conceptual one. Each families methods are varied, but within any family they look, feel and talk of the same methods which influences progression. We tend to hold onto images of past ancestors, which is our minimum standard, for concrete reference. I'm all up for progression, if the core is kept firmly in tact. That core is knowledge with form not form on it's own.

Having softenss with Qigong practise is not unfamiliar to Lee Shing Wing Chun practitioners, but that may well be influenced directly from Fung Sang himself...

[YiWan]

... The guy with the Mo is me and the lady is my wife, Sifu Linda. Fung Chun went on to say later on that Linda is the only wing chun female to set foot in KuLo village. What an honour....
Sifu Garry

Hi Garry :-),

China, Kulo, 2003, Martina direct on the side of Fung Chun sifu (http://www.wingchun.atknet.sk/wingchun_g00000c.jpg)
China, Kulo, 2003, same Martina (http://www.wingchun.atknet.sk/wingchun_g00000d.jpg)

:-), i think, its not sooo hot...
greetings
ir

[LoneTiger108]

China, Kulo, 2003, Martina direct on the side of Fung Chun sifu (http://www.wingchun.atknet.sk/wingchun_g00000c.jpg)
China, Kulo, 2003, same Martina (http://www.wingchun.atknet.sk/wingchun_g00000d.jpg)

You mean there was a female Wing Chun exponent who was in Gulao before Sifu Linda??!! Now, if that is a minor discrepency to Garrys story I don't know how anybody can take anything too seriously when it comes to this sort of thing! :eek:

Being a journeyman is very difficult, especially when you don't realize that there may be people who have been on that journey before you...

[YiWan]

You mean there was a female Wing Chun exponent who was in Gulao before Sifu Linda??!! Now, if that is a minor discrepency to Garrys story I don't know how anybody can take anything too seriously when it comes to this sort of thing! :eek:

Being a journeyman is very difficult, especially when you don't realize that there may be people who have been on that journey before you...

Hi,
i dont comment anything else on Garrys posts, ok?
:-) its just funny thing, nothing else :-)
greetings
ir

[LoneTiger108]

i dont comment anything else on Garrys posts, ok?
:-) its just funny thing, nothing else :-)


I'm sure Garry will see the funny side YiWan. It's just interesting how people will always believe what they're told, and why shouldn't they?

Women in Wing Chun are still too few imo, so I think that it's great to see some dedication to the cause from some very talented individuals. We are all one Family, as Garry has said, so we should be happy for eachother for finding such a great connection to our past ancestors.

I only wish I had the chance (and resources!) to go to Gulao when I was in Foshan in 2002 for the Ip Man Tong Opening...

[sifu garry]

I'm sure Garry will see the funny side YiWan. It's just interesting how people will always believe what they're told, and why shouldn't they?

Women in Wing Chun are still too few imo, so I think that it's great to see some dedication to the cause from some very talented individuals. We are all one Family, as Garry has said, so we should be happy for eachother for finding such a great connection to our past ancestors.

I only wish I had the chance (and resources!) to go to Gulao when I was in Foshan in 2002 for the Ip Man Tong Opening...

Hi Lone Tiger,

Thanks for comments. It is great to see another female practitioner in KuLo.
When GM Fung Chun was told Sifu Linda has been teaching and studying WCK for 17 years, thats when he pointed his thumb upwards and gave her acknowledgment and made the comment. Linda does study Pien Sun, also. He may have been referring to Linda being a Sifu, studying his art, or maybe, he was referring to us being at his actual residence.

Linda thought, being a female and actually being recognized and spoken to, was a great honour.

Hopefully, in the future more women will eventually go to GuLo.

PS: No disrespect was intended to anybody.

Regards
Sifu Garry

[sifu garry]

Hi,
i dont comment anything else on Garrys posts, ok?
:-) its just funny thing, nothing else :-)
greetings
ir

Hi IR,
Thanks for the update.

Regards
Sifu Garry

[LoneTiger108]

I thought that I'd add this clip supplied by Rochester from a similar thread. A great look into Pien San Wing Chun...


Interesting video. Anybody know if these are Pien San san sik and their application? Enjoyed the various forms of chi sao demo'd at the end, seems to have parts of both Pan Nam and YKS platforms.

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_ce00XMTU2Njc4NDA=.html

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,

Fung Lim's Yee Sup Yee (22 point) system. The guy in the video is a student of Fung Lim's son in law. He has a dvd with all his stuff on it. Not much PSWC but a common Kulo "point" version.

Gotta run!

JR

[Phil Redmond]

Hi Jim,

Hope you had a happy new year. I looked for your contact details, but I had no luck. This is my email: sifugarry@optusnet.com.au

Last time I spoke to Delroi, he mentioned he had friends in Boston. I thought he would have contacted me by now. He was looking foward to my return from China, last november, so we could catch up. I lost his email due to me having to reformat my PC. . . . . .

Sifu Garry

I'll call Delroi and give him your email addy.

[Phil Redmond]

I just opened an email from Sifu Delroi Flood. He says he remembered you and will contact you.

[sifu garry]

I just opened an email from Sifu Delroi Flood. He says he remembered you and will contact you.

Hi Phil,

Thanks for everything. Delroi has contacted me, and I will make sure I write his email address in my diary, so I wont lose it.

Regards
Sifu Garry

[sifu garry]

Hi All,
I have posted some very intresting forms on my forum, which are open to comments and discussion.

There are various SLT forms from around China and Wooden Dummy forms performed by different Sifus.

You can access my forum from:

www.shaolinjeeshinwingchun.com.au/jeeshin/wing_chun_about_us.html

I hope you all enjoy the videos.

I will be posting some more footage on different weaponry and other wing chun forms - stay tuned.

Regards
Sifu Garry

[LoneTiger108]

As always Garry, I look forward to seeing the footage!

Has anyone else from TWC or HFY attempted to cross-reference their systems to the likes of Gulao (Kulo) & mainland Wing Chun like you seem to be doing? It would be very interesting to see what you think about it all imo.

[sifu garry]

Hi All,

Please click on the links below, to view various demonstrations and live performances with different wing chun schools around southern China.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPGa2wrSiAk

www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ryDZmc9uKM

www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2T852lqzPg

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2WEYWgRffo

www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjTx_d3LfFI

www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gexMnt_qLw

www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYcH83ZMlNY

www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBr8XoCUn4E

www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7wGuPIqbCA

www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMG0mGDeCjw

www.youtube.com/watch?v=FeAxb7aqsfE

www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVUmzI9XoCM

www.youtube.com/watch?v=in4UksLfPLo

Enjoy and compare and feel free to make a comment.

At my forum www.shaolinjeeshinwingchun.com.au/forum/

there are many more interesting wing chun videos for your enjoyment.

Sifu Garry
Shaolin Jee Shin Wing Chun