Hybrids

[tattooedmonk]

I notice there is a lot of debate and discussion about the purity of the arts and the hybridization of styles. Many of the schools that proclaim to be pure forms of a specific style and yet ,at some point ,they do have other aspects of other arts absorbed into them from other styles/systems. What does everyone here think about this?? Is there anything wrong with these hybrid styles ? Is there more to be gained from studying in one of these schools compared to a pure style/ system??

[B-Rad]

I think it depends on what you're talking about as a hybrid. If it's like baji/pigua combination, Sun taiji, or a well put together MMA training program I think it's cool. But when you're like my first karate/kungfu teacher taking seemingly random material from other sources which you obviously don't understand that well just so you can say you're a master of X number of styles (basically fudging a resume for prospective students) then I think that's a bad hybrid. Sure, some talented focused people will still figure things out as there's still thrust kicks, punches, chin na, throwing, etc. in the mess... Though often systems like that aren't exactly integrated, so it's not a real "hybrid" system. Just random superficial material from other systems not done particularly well. It's gotta be logically put together not just a sprawling mess of random forms and poses. I think some "traditional" systems have this problem too. I don't care how old the system is, I'm not learning 100+ forms :p There's some systems out there where 1 branch will have 5 or 10 forms, then another has 100+... I think at some point some teachers (current and in the past) padded their curriculums a bit to string people along, or make their knowledge seem much greater than it is ;)

[Leto]

I think really, there are no "pure" styles. It's only a matter of how long ago changes were made, and where they came from. There's nothing wrong with modern "hybrid" styles...only time will tell how effective they are. The styles we think of as "pure" or "traditional" made innovations and inclusions long ago, since they have lasted the test of time they are accepted as beneficial changes. All martial arts are evolving and changing all the time, with every new generation and teacher. How much there is to gain depends on the quality of the teacher.

[tattooedmonk]

I respect both of your inputs. Lets see where this goes.:D

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think really, there are no "pure" styles. It's only a matter of how long ago changes were made, and where they came from. There's nothing wrong with modern "hybrid" styles...only time will tell how effective they are. The styles we think of as "pure" or "traditional" made innovations and inclusions long ago, since they have lasted the test of time they are accepted as beneficial changes. All martial arts are evolving and changing all the time, with every new generation and teacher. How much there is to gain depends on the quality of the teacher.

I agree, even the most "traditional" of styles was a hybrid.

[MasterKiller]

I think it depends on what you're talking about as a hybrid. If it's like baji/pigua combination, Sun taiji, or a well put together MMA training program I think it's cool. But when you're like my first karate/kungfu teacher taking seemingly random material from other sources which you obviously don't understand that well just so you can say you're a master of X number of styles (basically fudging a resume for prospective students) then I think that's a bad hybrid.

I agree. Styles that compliment one another can be merged easily.

A mish-mash and hodge-podge of forms is simply counterproductive.

[xcakid]

Long Fist = Hybrid

Although it is considered a traditional system.

[tattooedmonk]

I agree, even the most "traditional" of styles was a hybrid.Ah see this is something that I am also getting at too , the use of the word "traditional". You mean "purest" of styles, am I right ?

[tattooedmonk]

Long Fist = Hybrid

Although it is considered a traditional system.Once again "purest"not traditional. i know what you are saying though.

[tattooedmonk]

I agree. Styles that compliment one another can be merged easily.

A mish-mash and hodge-podge of forms is simply counterproductive. I have heard you and others use this in describing SD and other schools before . How can it just be a hodge podge or mish mash of "forms/ styles" if they all come from the same sources ?? Are they not different brances of the same tree based on the same or similar philosphical principles??.

Just wondering.

[Toby]

I have heard you and others use this in describing SD and other schools before . How can it just be a hodge podge or mish mash of "forms/ styles" if they all come from the same sources ?? Are they not different brances of the same tree based on the same or similar philosphical principles??.You're joking, right? OK, I've got a personal interest in hsing i. You think that's shaolin? How about taiji or bagua? These 3 "internal" arts come from the same sources as which other arts in the SD curriculum? People spend a lifetime learning just one of those styles. OTOH they're a stepping stone in the SD belt program.

[tattooedmonk]

You're joking, right? OK, I've got a personal interest in hsing i. You think that's shaolin? How about taiji or bagua? These 3 "internal" arts come from the same sources as which other arts in the SD curriculum? People spend a lifetime learning just one of those styles. OTOH they're a stepping stone in the SD belt program.All of these arts have the same roots and trunk , they have branched out and have come to fruitation. The fruits of these trees continue to fertilize the roots and the soil. They all are based on Chinese philosophy , some borrowed and some not.

[Toby]

All of these arts have the same roots and trunk , they have branched out and have come to fruitation. The fruits of these trees continue to fertilize the roots and the soil. They all are based on Chinese philosophy , some borrowed and some not.Wow.

4567890

[sanjuro_ronin]

Ah see this is something that I am also getting at too , the use of the word "traditional". You mean "purest" of styles, am I right ?

No such thing as a pure style, outside of hype and revisonist history.
But I now what you mean, hence the quotation marks.

[MasterKiller]

I have heard you and others use this in describing SD and other schools before . How can it just be a hodge podge or mish mash of "forms/ styles" if they all come from the same sources ?? Are they not different brances of the same tree based on the same or similar philosphical principles??.

Just wondering.

Southern short arm forms + Northern Long arm forms + internal forms + some made up stuff is a hodge podge, anyway you look at it. At least 3 drastically different fighting methods, all performed and practiced exactly the same way.

[David Jamieson]

I prefer to transition from one thing to the next depending on what range I am in at the moment.

having said that, it takes many colours to make a magnificent painting, but equally, it can take only one to produce the same beauty.

[bakxierboxer]

Southern short arm forms......

THAT explains EVERYTHING!
(gotta watch out, they may come after you for giving away the secret of SD)
(although I'm not sure why they'd choose to avoid the Northern short arm stuff....)

[Judge Pen]

I figured this thread would eventually turn into an SD thread (although I'm sure TTM didn't intend for it to). Time to merge with the mega-thread gene.

[Baqualin]

At least 3 drastically different fighting methods, all performed and practiced exactly the same way.

Not possible!
BQ

[Baqualin]

I figured this thread would eventually turn into an SD thread (although I'm sure TTM didn't intend for it to). Time to merge with the mega-thread gene.

JP, soon as they see SD it's over.....this is a place where people come to start sh!t and stroke their MA egos....it's easy to coach a ballgame from the stands (or from a keyboard)

[Baqualin]

I prefer to transition from one thing to the next depending on what range I am in at the moment.

having said that, it takes many colours to make a magnificent painting, but equally, it can take only one to produce the same beauty.

Excellent !!!
BQ

[Baqualin]

You're joking, right?
OK, I've got a personal interest in hsing i. You think that's shaolin?
did not originate there.


How about taiji or bagua?
did not originate there

These 3 "internal" arts come from the same sources as which other arts in the SD curriculum?
They don't

People spend a lifetime learning just one of those styles. OTOH they're a stepping stone in the SD belt program.
not true



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[Toby]

You're joking, right?
OK, I've got a personal interest in hsing i. You think that's shaolin?

did not originate there.



How about taiji or bagua?

did not originate there


These 3 "internal" arts come from the same sources as which other arts in the SD curriculum?

They don't
I thought that was the official position (i.e. I'm agreeing with you). I didn't think I'd read on the SD thread that you believed that everything in the system had a common root. That's why I couldn't quite believe what I was reading. You listening, tattoedmonk?




People spend a lifetime learning just one of those styles. OTOH they're a stepping stone in the SD belt program.

not true
That's not what the curriculum says on various SD websites. I don't really know much about SD and I don't particularly care. I get you guys mixed up apart from Bruce (who I was going to meet) but I seem to remember that you're a more senior SDer? He has posted that in the other thread that there are people like him who concentrate on specific things and work them for a long time. Maybe you're like that too? But he's also said that there are people whose sole interest is in belt progression so they learn forms to the competence necessary to pass the next level and that's it, i.e. the stepping stone approach.

[Baqualin]

[QUOTE=Toby;822162]I thought that was the official position (i.e. I'm agreeing with you). I didn't think I'd read on the SD thread that you believed that everything in the system had a common root. That's why I couldn't quite believe what I was reading. You listening, tattoedmonk?

That's not what the curriculum says on various SD websites. I don't really know much about SD and I don't particularly care. I get you guys mixed up apart from Bruce (who I was going to meet) but I seem to remember that you're a more senior SDer? He has posted that in the other thread that there are people like him who concentrate on specific things and work them for a long time. Maybe you're like that too? But he's also said that there are people whose sole interest is in belt progression so they learn forms to the competence necessary to pass the next level and that's it, i.e. the stepping stone approach.[/B]


True & True & True...also True of a lot of what's out there....there is a good core in SD...just hard to find.....when you get to big that always happens

[Judge Pen]

These arts can be just a stepping stone. It depends on the individual. Its like any other business based school--there are people that just show up and there are people that really work at learning and understanding the differences. Bruce is an excellent example of the latter, but there are more out there. The knowledge is there if you have the motivation and the commitment.

[tattooedmonk]

When I said this I meant the same basic foundation. It is how you apply the Internal/ External principles that makes it unique and different. There is a great amount of overlap in all CMA.

[MasterKiller]

When I said this I meant the same basic foundation. It is how you apply the Internal/ External principles that makes it unique and different. There is a great amount of overlap in all CMA.



All of these arts have the same roots and trunk , they have branched out and have come to fruitation. The fruits of these trees continue to fertilize the roots and the soil. They all are based on Chinese philosophy , some borrowed and some not.

So your stance is that any style based on Chinese philosophy can be easily blended with another style based on Chinese philosophy?

[tattooedmonk]

So your stance is that any style based on Chinese philosophy can be easily blended with another style based on Chinese philosophy?If you know how and where they overlap and are related, yeah.