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Drake
11-28-2007, 03:51 AM
As you all already know, I'm learning via correspondence with GM Doc Fai Wong. We've come a long way since the 80's, where one would have to order the tapes via snail mail, wait 6-8 weeks, learn the forms, and then have to fly to wherever, possibly to learn that you've been doing everything wrong.
Where we are now, I can either e-mail the school directly for the vids or order them online. I can speak to the GM after training, send him videos over the internet of what I did, and he can critique me, sometimes on the same day, but never more than a few days. (He's wandering about China right now) He even lets me know what he can't see, so I can adjust the camera in later shoots.

With that said, where can we go from here? I have a few ideas floating about.

*A distance learning forum/chat room, where distance learners can have peer discussions, possibly saving the GM time by not having to deal with "Is my say ping ma too high?" questions. It's also a good place to let us know we aren't alone, and we can measure our progress against others who are learning the same way.

*Utilize virtual teleconferencing for events such as grading, etc. This would essentially put the GM in the same room as you, and let him see everything you are doing in a nonrehearsed, nonrecorded manner. For instance, you can't mess up on the ng lun choi five or six times before getting it right for presentation. It's all or nothing.

*Online repositories. Videos of forms, techniques, etc for paying members. I wouldn't charge the same as being in the school, but this could be a wealth of information and training aids if done right. I think Master Chen Yong Fa has something similar. No idea what the Buk Sing do for this, the secretive buggers! :D

*And call me a nerd, but IT guys love a quote of the day. Just put it on the website. Anywhere.

RFM
11-28-2007, 02:39 PM
Drake,

I noticed that you are a service member in Germany. Where in Germany? My last duty station in Germany was Wuerzburg back in the mid 90's. It was there that I learned a style of Kung Fu called Jingang Quan (aka Diamond Fist). My instructor was a DA Civilian, married to a German and I do not believe he had any plans to ever return to the States. He may still be there teaching if you are interested.

Peace,
Bob

Drake
11-28-2007, 02:47 PM
Drake,

I noticed that you are a service member in Germany. Where in Germany? My last duty station in Germany was Wuerzburg back in the mid 90's. It was there that I learned a style of Kung Fu called Jingang Quan (aka Diamond Fist). My instructor was a DA Civilian, married to a German and I do not believe he had any plans to ever return to the States. He may still be there teaching if you are interested.

Peace,
Bob


Bob,
A lot of bases have closed since then. I think Wurzburg was one of them. There's still a few places here, such as Graf, Vilseck, Wiesbaden (where I am), Heidelburg, Kaiserslautern, Landstuhl and Stuttgart. There's others, though.

RFM
11-28-2007, 03:01 PM
That's a bummer. I was at Landstuhl (at the hospital) last summer (06) as a Reservist, was doing my three week (yes, three) annual training. But I am no longer a reservist, just a simple DA civilian myself working on Ft Riley at the hospital.

There is little in martial arts here (Ft Riley/Junction City KS). No Kung Fu that I am aware of, though I have thought of teaching again, I am long out of practice and have little time to dedicate as I once did when I was at Ft Sam Houston (San Antonio, TX).

Good luck in your endeavors!

-Bob

Drake
11-28-2007, 03:08 PM
Maybe you should teach and bring something to Ft. Riley. Why not see if the post gym will let you give classes? We had a guy teaching Mantis here a while back. I suppose he PCSed a while back.
Its hard staying with an art in the Army, because either you're moving, or they are.

T. Cunningham
11-28-2007, 07:50 PM
Drake,

How are you evaluated on application?

Todd

Drake
11-28-2007, 08:13 PM
Drake,

How are you evaluated on application?

Todd

By recording myself performing. Usually get feedback relatively quickly.

CLFNole
11-28-2007, 08:16 PM
I think he means application of techniques probably more in a useage sense.

Drake
11-28-2007, 08:34 PM
I think he means application of techniques probably more in a useage sense.

What do you mean? Just the apps by themselves? Or do I randomly go out and attack someone to test my effectiveness? :)

CLFNole
11-28-2007, 08:45 PM
What I think Todd is asking (an he could say for sure) is how do you get evaluated on application of techniques? Meaning when most test under typical school conditions you have to demostrate useage of the techniques against an instructor or something like that.

My guess would be that you would have to go to the school for something like that.

Drake
11-28-2007, 08:49 PM
What I think Todd is asking (an he could say for sure) is how do you get evaluated on application of techniques? Meaning when most test under typical school conditions you have to demostrate useage of the techniques against an instructor or something like that.

My guess would be that you would have to go to the school for something like that.

The GM can tell when my apps during the form are out of whack. for example, during a form, I perform a kick and then follow up with a pek choi. He noticed that with my pek choi I didn't guard my elbow.

He also noted that I should use more hip with my jongs.

I'm not sure how much hands on he really needs at this point of his understanding of CLF.

Drake
11-29-2007, 01:52 AM
Ok, I see what you're getting at. I suppose there's not really much way to do this. Back before I went into CLF I had to "take" my belt from my instructor, using only what I'd learned, and nothing else. Was a rough day for me.

I think as time goes by, and we become more familiar with technologies available to us, we can overcome this obstacle too.

B-Rad
11-29-2007, 12:13 PM
How much does he charge for distance learning? Is it comparable to regular kungfu classes?

Drake
11-29-2007, 12:28 PM
How much does he charge for distance learning? Is it comparable to regular kungfu classes?

He only charges an initial fee (less than $50. I remember it was cheap) and the cost of the DVDs is on you. It's a far cry from TMWs video set ($$$$$$$$$).

The only thing I don't like, and it can't be helped, is that I don't have someone watching me perform real-time. And as Sifu Lance once mentioned, some things are hard to explain in words or e-mails.

B-Rad
11-29-2007, 01:01 PM
That's a pretty good deal compared to how most try to run distance learning programs. $50 is a pretty small fee to get consistent direct feedback to what you learn from someone's instructional dvds.

T. Cunningham
11-29-2007, 09:48 PM
Yep, CLFNole is correct. There's only so much you can tell by watching form whether video or live. In order to really test the knowledge and skill, you have to cross hands. Do you have anyone that can help you with this?

Drake
11-30-2007, 02:16 AM
Yep, CLFNole is correct. There's only so much you can tell by watching form whether video or live. In order to really test the knowledge and skill, you have to cross hands. Do you have anyone that can help you with this?

Nope. Nobody.

RFM
11-30-2007, 10:44 AM
You are in a similar situtaion that I am in, here in Kansas. As you mentioned in a earlier post, the military lifestyle can really put a dent in your training program.

After I left San Antonio where I was used to training quite frequently in addition to my other activities, I found a huge lack of available time here in Kansas (FT Riley) because I pretty much spent my first year and a half out in the field and the National Training Center - all good, but not for Kung Fu. I eventually just gave up trying to make it happen again and have since not practiced. I barely qualify as a spectator.

One effort of mine to get back into KF was to locate a training partner and this proved to be a difficult task as well - everyone likes to grapple or do MMA!

My conclusion was this, I'd have to find someone who was my size and wanted to train in KF, teach them and hopefully bring them up to my level (which is not so hard to do now!). You may want to consider teaching what you know or think you know (to test things out). I learned more from my time of teaching than I did as an instructor.

Peace,
Bob

sanjuro_ronin
11-30-2007, 11:13 AM
In this very cool inforamtion age, one can do wonders with a "point of reference", judo to BJJ for example.
DVD's and instructions are super TOOLS to use, BUt the only way to get full benefit from them is hard, consistent sparring.

RFM
11-30-2007, 11:19 AM
Drake,

Another thought came to mind. You could always PCS to Kanas and train with me. I'm not going anywhere. Need a partner for cow-tipping, those Bison are a real challenge.

Bob

The Xia
11-30-2007, 12:34 PM
Remember that TCMA is passed on through hand-to-hand transmission.

sanjuro_ronin
11-30-2007, 12:35 PM
Remember that TCMA is passed on through hand-to-hand transmission.

that sounds so...well...disturbing :D

diego
11-30-2007, 12:55 PM
that sounds so...well...disturbing :D

I know you want to feel my qi, everyone's doing it....


TOUCH IT:mad:







































:o

Drake
12-03-2007, 03:44 AM
Drake,

Another thought came to mind. You could always PCS to Kanas and train with me. I'm not going anywhere. Need a partner for cow-tipping, those Bison are a real challenge.

Bob

Hey Bob,
I was approved for Officer Candidate School, so I will be shedding my NCO stripes and slapping on my butterbar. School dates should be out this month for me, along with my branch. Working hard to get into the best shape possible for this. I don't know about FT. Leavenworth, though. Maybe if I get branched MP, they'll send me there. I'm hoping to either come back to Europe or maybe spend some time in Asia. I don't even really remember the US anymore.

Oh, and GM feels I can do just fine in CLF as long as I work my butt off and put everything I've got into it, basically. I'm not saying you aren't right, Sifu L., but he's my teacher, and I owe him the benefit of the doubt with this. I wouldn't recommend this to someone completely new to MA, though. Too many things that have to be learned from someone right there with you. I'm struggling, and I have some MA background.

bakxierboxer
12-03-2007, 05:26 AM
Hey Bob,
I was approved for Officer Candidate School....

Congrats!


Oh, and GM feels I can do just fine in CLF as long as I work my butt off and put everything I've got into it.....

He is the guy who should know.....


.... he's my teacher, and I owe him the benefit of the doubt with this.
Fortunately for all concerned, CLF happens to be one of the TCMA that is very much done
"just the way it looks". (not to say that there aren't some "less obvious" apps in there)


I wouldn't recommend this to someone completely new to MA, though. Too many things that have to be learned from someone right there with you. I'm struggling, and I have some MA background.

Ditto.

Drake
12-03-2007, 06:08 AM
Bakxierboxer,
I was also saying that I understand Sifu L's point about hands on training as well. When I was able to train with a real instructor with me, I learned volumes by interacting with him with strikes and blocks. It also speeds it up when the guy is right there to tell me I am telegraphing, etc, and I can spot check myself right there, as opposed to getting the response later via e-mail when I'm not training.

But yes, as long as GM believes it's ok, then it's ok by me.

RFM
12-03-2007, 07:24 AM
Again Congrats on OCS.

When you do get to Leavenworth, we'll have to hook up, eat some good BBQ. Ft Riley is only two hours away and Kansas City is where the nearest Cabelas is located (which for some of us Kansans is like Mecca).

There are similarities between my Jingang Quan and your CLF. I recall an article I read yeas ago about CLF Five Wheel Horse form. It was near the same as mine, except, my style doesn't really have any arm movements, just legs - however the combat applications are really neat and very applicable especially against a dude in full battle rattle.

Let me know on your school dates. Since I am a DA Civilian, I also have an AKO address: [email]robert.melius@us....... you should know the rest!

Peace,
Bob

bakxierboxer
12-03-2007, 08:26 AM
I was also saying that I understand Sifu L's point about hands on training as well. When I was able to train with a real instructor with me, I learned volumes by interacting with him with strikes and blocks. It also speeds it up when the guy is right there to tell me I am telegraphing, etc, and I can spot check myself right there, as opposed to getting the response later via e-mail when I'm not training.

There's no denying that hands-on in-class is better than a correspondence course, no matter the technology.

That said, unless you were in a rather unusual situation, you didn't have the "use" of your SiFu as a virtual Mook Jong.

When I was teaching, I made it a point to have contact with every student in every class on whatever they needed work on; but, the majority of their practice was with each other.... and there are very good reasons for that, too.

Drake
12-03-2007, 08:30 AM
There's no denying that hands-on in-class is better than a correspondence course, no matter the technology.

That said, unless you were in a rather unusual situation, you didn't have the "use" of your SiFu as a virtual Mook Jong.

When I was teaching, I made it a point to have contact with every student in every class on whatever they needed work on; but, the majority of their practice was with each other.... and there are very good reasons for that, too.

The difference is that this was a guy teaching interested folks on his spare time, so he only had two or three of us at a time, and many times it was just he and I, since I was always over there to learn.

bakxierboxer
12-03-2007, 08:42 AM
The difference is that this was a guy teaching interested folks on his spare time, so he only had two or three of us at a time, and many times it was just he and I, since I was always over there to learn.

That sounds unusual enough......

Drake
12-03-2007, 08:46 AM
That sounds unusual enough......

It worked at the time. It was that or TKD down at the local studio.

hskwarrior
12-03-2007, 09:08 AM
drake,

does my si sook gung your gm, include his email and stuff for students to contact him when you do the long distance training?

I'm working on some long distance training vids as well, and would like to cover as much as possible to reduce the learning curve caused by these vids......

drake, if you knew someone had a line of dvds that went into almost every detail or possible questions and covered them, would that be something worth while?

no, i'm not trying to sell you anything, but since you do the long distance thing, you'd be the best source of information.

bakxierboxer
12-03-2007, 09:16 AM
It worked at the time. It was that or TKD down at the local studio.

I actually TRY not to know anything about TKD.

sanjuro_ronin
12-03-2007, 09:17 AM
What's with all the hate about TKD ?
While I personally don't care much for the WTF, there is no disputing that what they do, they do very well.

bakxierboxer
12-03-2007, 09:29 AM
What's with all the hate about TKD ?
While I personally don't care much for the WTF, there is no disputing that what they do, they do very well.

No "hate" per se.... just have no use for the "modern" (per)version(s).
I actually LIKED the early guys. (especially from the ROK White Tigers, etc)

sanjuro_ronin
12-03-2007, 09:35 AM
No "hate" per se.... just have no use for the "modern" (per)version(s).
I actually LIKED the early guys. (especially from the ROK White Tigers, etc)

Well, I have no love for what the kukikwon did to TKD, but they set their sights on a pure sport oriented "martial art" and they got it.
While ITF has tried to maintain some of the more practical aspects of the pre 80's TKD, truth is they didn't do a very good job either.
Perhaps in the future TKD well go the route of Judo and reclaim its "martial heritage".
perhaps...

bakxierboxer
12-03-2007, 09:54 AM
Well, I have no love for what the kukikwon did to TKD, but they set their sights on a pure sport oriented "martial art" and they got it.
While ITF has tried to maintain some of the more practical aspects of the pre 80's TKD, truth is they didn't do a very good job either.
Perhaps in the future TKD well go the route of Judo and reclaim its "martial heritage".
perhaps...

"I'll believe it when I see it!"?

sanjuro_ronin
12-03-2007, 09:58 AM
Don't hold your breath.
LOL !

I have yet to see any WTF dojang that is anything other than sport oriented, as for the ITF, they have gone from a "kyokushin-type" of training to 99% of them being point and minimal contact types of schools.

Drake
12-03-2007, 10:04 AM
drake,

does my si sook gung your gm, include his email and stuff for students to contact him when you do the long distance training?

I'm working on some long distance training vids as well, and would like to cover as much as possible to reduce the learning curve caused by these vids......

drake, if you knew someone had a line of dvds that went into almost every detail or possible questions and covered them, would that be something worth while?

no, i'm not trying to sell you anything, but since you do the long distance thing, you'd be the best source of information.

GM is very accessible via e-mail, and we've spoken over the phone once. He's a very friendly, easy-going guy.

I don't think it's possible to address every single issue in a single DVD, hence the correspondence, but I do enjoy vids where the techniques are explained thoroughly, and not just shown fast and in slo-mo. I may have shunned the TMW tapes due to other circumstances, but I strongly feel those developing distance learning tapes could learn from the way he does things. He knows how to do tapes. GM DFWs are good too, and while his DVDs aren't as good as TMWs, it is more than made up for in feedback, accessibility, and quick corrections.

My final complaint is that if the student isn't doing the form correctly, leave him/her out of camera range. It's confusing.

bakxierboxer
12-03-2007, 10:05 AM
Don't hold your breath.
LOL !

Not to worry!
It's the little kids that you've gotta watch out for when they do that.


I have yet to see any WTF dojang that is anything other than sport oriented,


I actually get a "kick" out of their acronym.... "WTF"?


as for the ITF, they have gone from a "kyokushin-type" of training to 99% of them being point and minimal contact types of schools.

"WTF" them, too.

Steeeve
12-04-2007, 05:50 PM
Drake

Are you the only correspondance student with Mr DFW? I mean does all the video stuff are just for you or ? You receive a video of a form ...speed and one slow? you send a video of ur foms or a parts before go more far ???????????

Does you have a training parnter for applications or? Do you used the webcam for show and ask questions? Do you have a live correction by web cam or just by e mail

Whats ur background in MA ?before you start a long distance program ....


BTW for the others who post someTae kwon do guys could take your head off ...this guys just do sparring and train for fight ....no fancy stuff but too much kick I agree:D ...no forms ...just fighting ....the physical attribute (cardio ,endurance ) are there ......

Best Regard

Steeve

Steeeve
12-04-2007, 07:13 PM
Hey for you Big Guy;) TKD

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBdtzh8y7sc

Enjoy

Steeve

Drake
12-04-2007, 09:51 PM
Drake

Are you the only correspondance student with Mr DFW? I mean does all the video stuff are just for you or ? You receive a video of a form ...speed and one slow? you send a video of ur foms or a parts before go more far ???????????

Does you have a training parnter for applications or? Do you used the webcam for show and ask questions? Do you have a live correction by web cam or just by e mail

Whats ur background in MA ?before you start a long distance program ....


BTW for the others who post someTae kwon do guys could take your head off ...this guys just do sparring and train for fight ....no fancy stuff but too much kick I agree:D ...no forms ...just fighting ....the physical attribute (cardio ,endurance ) are there ......

Best Regard

Steeve

I'm not the only distance learning student of GM DFW. The DVDs aren't just forms, but also applications, and breakdowns of the different sections of the forms. He doesn't really need to show me a webcam correction, because he just has me go to the part of the DVD where I made a mistake and rewatch it. It's worked so far. Also, the DVDs are not personalized.

As for me, I do a form, videotape myself, publish it (usually on youtube), and send him the link. He evaluates it and gets back to me on where I need work. Sometimes this takes several iterations.

And I have no training partner here. The last live interaction I had was from a Mantis guy who was giving classes at the post gym way back before I deployed to Iraq. There was krav maga here a couple of months ago, but I'm not interested.

Steeeve
12-05-2007, 02:35 PM
Drake

Thats sound good ....But thats take a lot of dedication from you to learn that way

Steeve

Drake
12-05-2007, 09:42 PM
Drake

Thats sound good ....But thats take a lot of dedication from you to learn that way

Steeve

It's all about cutting that one hour a day out of your schedule. I also train wherever I can get it. My last submission to him was taped in my office.

bakxierboxer
12-06-2007, 11:15 PM
BTW for the others who post someTae kwon do guys could take your head off ...this guys just do sparring and train for fight ....no fancy stuff but too much kick I agree:D ...no forms ...just fighting ....the physical attribute (cardio ,endurance ) are there .....

The guy even has some decent punching skills..
Still, everyone he fought was playing HIS game.... with just the results one would expect under that situation.

Additionally, his record seems to indicate a rather long history/experience, which tends to
"add weight" to his techniques.

Steeeve
12-07-2007, 01:20 PM
I agree but men his kicking skills is very good....He came from the WTF


Steeve

bakxierboxer
12-07-2007, 09:22 PM
I have a different perspective than you do.

He also has been a champion of one thing or another since 92 and it's rather unlikely that his contact fighting bears much resemblance to WTF ("What The F*ck"?)

Steeeve
12-08-2007, 07:38 AM
The kicking are TKD player...

Seppukku
12-08-2007, 09:38 AM
Nope. Nobody.


You're in Germany. There have to be bars. Just make an insulting comment to somebody's "leiben", saying she looks like a "Gestapo-skank", and I think you'll find a partner soon enough.

Drake
12-08-2007, 03:38 PM
You're in Germany. There have to be bars. Just make an insulting comment to somebody's "leiben", saying she looks like a "Gestapo-skank", and I think you'll find a partner soon enough.


The language barrier sucks. I was in Berlin the other day, and everyone spoke English. Now I'm back in Wiesbaden, where everyone is filthy rich, and everybody plays dumb when you try speaking English to them.

bakxierboxer
12-08-2007, 10:45 PM
The kicking are TKD player...

You need to get your eyes examined......

Steeeve
12-08-2007, 10:57 PM
baxier

What do you mean :confused:


I receive a black belt in TKD long time ago ....I know whats I talk about ...

all this combos kicking are TKD ....not northern shaolin or whatever chinese mA theydont know how to used kick ......:D...Do yopu know Hee Il Cho ? TKD and Muay Thai are the only one ....to used kick the good way....Do you ever saw the spinning back kick of benny the Jet Urquidez...a kenpo stylist from substyle of Kajukenbo .....



Steeve

bakxierboxer
12-08-2007, 11:33 PM
baxier

What do you mean :confused:

The level/type of follow-through/contact is totally different than what is done by today's "WTF" "practitioners".


I receive a black belt in TKD long time ago ....I know whats I talk about ...


That was NOT "long ago".... NEWBIE!


... all this combos kicking are TKD ....

Funny, they don't seem to have all that much of the favored hop/skip/flounce of the Olympic TKDopers.


not northern shaolin or whatever chinese mA theydont know how to used kick ......:D

Perhaps the ones you've met.
I was possibly the second-best kicker in my kajukenbo school & my kicks have only gotten better since changing to TCMA.


...Do yopu know Hee Il Cho ?

Met him, don't know him.
I think I've met most of the old-timers in JMA and KMA.
As for his kicking.... I prefer most others'.


TKD and Muay Thai are the only one ....to used kick the good way....
You DO need to either get your eyes examined or get a look at the better kickers in this world.


Do you ever saw the spinning back kick of benny the Jet Urquidez...a kenpo stylist from substyle of Kajukenbo .....

I met most of the Urquidez/Rodriquez "clan" back in the 60s when Benny was maybe 12 or 13 years old... BEFORE there was a "spinning back kick" for him to learn.

Drake
12-09-2007, 03:01 AM
Can we take this TKD garbage to another thread, please?

hskwarrior
12-09-2007, 03:12 AM
i do believe the boy has spirit!!!!!

Drake
12-09-2007, 07:16 AM
i do believe the boy has spirit!!!!!

"What makes the green grass grow???"

"BLOOD, BRIGHT RED BLOOD!!"

bakxierboxer
12-09-2007, 09:45 AM
Can we take this TKD garbage to another thread, please?

Fine with me.
OTOH, you WERE the first to mention it in this thread......

Drake
12-09-2007, 10:41 AM
Fine with me.
OTOH, you WERE the first to mention it in this thread......

But not for the purposes of watching you and the Canadian go at it... it was a quick reference...