Camps/sects at Shaolin

[Jingwu Man]

What are the different Camps or lineages at Shaolin today? Different groups in Shaolin seem to have different versions of the same form, and different ways of expressing the power. Does anybody know the lineages or the reason behind this? I've always found it interesting that there are so many different versions of things at Shaolin, and nobody bats an eye at it, but I have noticed that there are some standards, and would like to know where they come from.
Thanks for any help.:)

Example=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0WQvT1-_70
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1h8pyH7Q3Y

[NJM]

Do you mean at the shaolin temple, or in the shaolin genre?

[Jingwu Man]

Yeah, sorry, at the temple.

[xcakid]

When I spoke to Gene Ching and Shi Yan Feng at Taiji Legacy this year, I was told by both that there are hundred if not thousands of lineage forks within the Shaolin Temple itself. Just depends on who you discipled under all the way on up.

[NJM]

From what I understand, the majority of the monks practice Songshan wushu.

[Jingwu Man]

xcakid I was told by both that there are hundred if not thousands of lineage forks within the Shaolin Temple itself

Oh man!:eek:......

What about the major ones? Shi Suxi, Shi Suyun, Shi Sufa, etc... who took over for them?

[sha0lin1]

What are the different Camps or lineages at Shaolin today? Different groups in Shaolin seem to have different versions of the same form, and different ways of expressing the power. Does anybody know the lineages or the reason behind this? I've always found it interesting that there are so many different versions of things at Shaolin, and nobody bats an eye at it, but I have noticed that there are some standards, and would like to know where they come from.
Thanks for any help.:)



Example=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0WQvT1-_70
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1h8pyH7Q3Y



I have noticed this too. I have seen different versions of the same forms on you tube that I have learned. Sometimes with a few moves added or omitted but the overall flavor of the form is there, enough to recognize that it is that form. Recently a video of Shi De Yang was posted doing Yin Sho Guen, a beginning staff form, in this video at the end he finishes on his left side and the way my master teaches it we finish on the right. Everything else was the same thought. I asked my master once about this. He told me that over a monks training they have different instructors. Some instructors may teach a form one way and then a different instructor will teach the same form another, so it really depends on how the instructor was taught by his master. For instance in Chao Yang Quan there is a movement where you block with your left hand, grab, and crouch down till your thighs are parallel with the ground to apply the break. He said that some masters may teach this form with a half crouch, some may teach it with no crouch at all but standing upright. Another thing he told me was very interesting. He said that some masters may omit a movement if they can't do it themselves.

[xcakid]

A good example is how forms differ depending on schools.

Our Lien Bu Chuan and Gung Li chuan would differ a little bit from say the Chin Woo forms, yet we are both long fist.

Our Lien Huan has some strikes and a different way of ending than most I have seen and Lohan Shi Ba Shiu at our school has some postures that I have not seen from other styles. Compare that to the Temples version it would look totally foreign but the pattern is the same.

I was discussing Xioa Hong Quan with Gene @ TJL and we were comparing note on a couple of the strikes and applications. There was some differences in that as well. He learned it from the Temple and seen it practiced outside as well.

Even at my current school, we have 8 instructors, all have added a bit of "flavor" to the forms. Some have added a more pronounced stomp here and there. I have added some "more exagerated" movements to certains forms. Just looked prettier. During belt test you can kinda see which students learned what form from who. :D

Goes along what sha0lin1 just said regarding how forms were taught.


Incidently on Zhaoyang Quan, I learned it with the low stances. That form kills my legs and knees since I have patellar tendonitis.

[GeneChing]

The major lineages at Songshan Shaolin could be charted through the Grandmasters. So you could look at descendants of Shi Suxi vs. Shi Suyuan, etc., but that would only give you a small fraction of the story. Within classmates, there is variation. Some monks learn from multiple teachers. What's more, and this is the real confounding factor, is that if you're just looking at the monks, you're only seeing about a 1/2% of Shaolin. There are only a few hundred martial monks. There are thousands of folk masters. Now many of the private schools are teaching all sorts of different stuff - wushu taolu & sanda, judo, tae kwon do, even cardiokickboxing - but there are also many that teach traditional Songshan Shaolin and their folk lineages have generations of history on Songshan. There's a tremendous amount of cross fertilization between the monks and the folk masters. That's simply impossible to chart.

In our 2003 Shaolin Special (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=397), I published the official Top ten Shaolin master list, along with the 18 diamonds of Shaolin and the 18 lohan of Shaolin. These are all leading masters in the Songshan area, some monks, some disciples and some folk masters. That's 46 names and I'm willing to bet they all have different authentic versions of traditional Shaolin forms. I'm also willing to bet that most people here, even our top Shaolin researchers, don't know half of these masters.

As I've mentioned elsewhere (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=48637), I'm currently learning some variations on yinshougun. Yanfei's version came from a local folk master. Shaolin Temple has brought in folk masters to share their methods on many occasions. This has a historical foundation that goes back to the very origins of Shaolin kung fu.

[Jingwu Man]

Yikes!
Oh well. I was just wondering if there were main lineages. I guess not.
One of the things I've always liked about Shaolin gongfu is that even though there are a myriad of different versions of things, they're all real. No real bickering over who has the "true" form. When I was at the temple last year, I was being taught 7 stars by one monk, and several other monks kept coming up and adding stuff or making clarifications to the monk I was learning from. The guy everybody seemed to really listen to was some guy in a suit! I don't speak Chinese, but I thought it was pretty funny. No arguing over differences!
Suffice it to say, I feel my 7 stars form is pretty accurate after having a panel of monks and teachers iron it out.:D

[richard sloan]

you are also going to see differences between public consumption forms and the "real" ones.

there are also buddhist lineages which overlap the martial, which is why you will see some names that fall outside of fu yu's poem.