Cheng Man Ching's Form

[Ma_Xu_Zha]

I really want to know why american teachers of the Cheng man ching yang short form (excluding William chen- he is cool) have such huge ego? didnt cheng man ching say "invest in loss".

really! these 2nd and 3rd generation Shir Jung taiji people are perpetuating ignorance and act like they own some big secret. yet they are a huge joke to the taiji and martial arts community.

some cheng man ching teachers may have learned some form, sword, and push hands but they all have one thing in common:

1. they will never touch hands with you.

2. they do a hybrid shortened yang form from cheng man ching and every other form is wrong. (they havent figured out that their form is from something called a complete yang long form.)

3. they will never demo their form themselves.

4. they act like they are masters and imitate there teachers. they will speak to you as if you are lower than them and that whatever you do is wrong.

5. they try to act soooo traditional and dont recongnize they are in 21st century.

6. you will never see them at any tournament and they will put down tournaments.

7. even if your a taiji relative they still act disrespectful to you. they recongize differences and not similarites, even if you been doing the same form as them.

i apologize to those other cheng man ching players i have been able to learn and benefit and exchang e ideas and push hands from with positive feedback.

others- with big egos and organizations who are suppose to be teachers setting a positive example- you really are a negative example of taiji and you shouldnt even be teaching .

[backbreaker]

Well, I learned in the Tchoung ta Tchen lineage, and met many Tchoung instructors. I never found any of them to be like what you say. They never think they are better than any other styles, and always mix and push hands with instructors from other schools. My chen man ching/ tchoung ta tchen old yang style instructor exposed me to basically every style of instructor imaginable, cmc, old yang, chen,wu,wu hao, sun, Fu, and many different hsing I, bagua, qigong etc.

[backbreaker]

Originally posted by Ma_Xu_Zha
I really want to know why american teachers of the Cheng man ching yang short form (excluding William chen- he is cool) have such huge ego? didnt cheng man ching say "invest in loss".

really! these 2nd and 3rd generation Shir Jung taiji people are perpetuating ignorance and act like they own some big secret. yet they are a huge joke to the taiji and martial arts community.

some cheng man ching teachers may have learned some form, sword, and push hands but they all have one thing in common:

1. they will never touch hands with you.


Not my CMC instructor.



2. they do a hybrid shortened yang form from cheng man ching and every other form is wrong. (they havent figured out that their form is from something called a complete yang long form.)



This is a bad attitude


3. they will never demo their form themselves.


What? My firs Taiji teacher would always demo forms. His bagua was especially cool and always impressed students. He runs a big retreat each summer and you gotta have some skills to show.





4. they act like they are masters and imitate there teachers. they will speak to you as if you are lower than them and that whatever you do is wrong.


Not the CMC/old yang stylists I know.



5. they try to act soooo traditional and dont recongnize they are in 21st century.


Yeah , other IMA groups do this on the internet too


6. you will never see them at any tournament and they will put down tournaments.



That's stupid. MY CMC/Old Yang school, would hold a tournament every second year, bringing in many resoected teachers and masters from all over the country. My first Taiji teacher knows everyone around. Of note was that many people from my first school would compete against students of Sam Masich, a student of Laing Shouyu, Yang jwing ming, and has even learned from chen xiaowang, and is a national push hands champion



7. even if your a taiji relative they still act disrespectful to you. they recongize differences and not similarites, even if you been doing the same form as them.

Not the CMC people I know.




i apologize to those other cheng man ching players i have been able to learn and benefit and exchang e ideas and push hands from with positive feedback.




others- with big egos and organizations who are suppose to be teachers setting a positive example- you really are a negative example of taiji and you shouldnt even be teaching .


Well , if what you say is true, good for you for saying it, if not, you're a troll, but I'm not calling you a troll, or doubting what you say or anything, but it is not my experience with the Tchoung ta Tchen lineage instructors at all. They are laid back and always respectful of other styles, and interested in exchanging ideas.


If someone won't touch hands, or won't demonsteate fighting applications, they probably can't

[bamboo_ leaf]

When I used to practice that style Ben Lo, was always pretty open and assessable.

Maybe many of the ones you met are a little gun shy, and tired of being called the watered down taiji. They developed a defensive attitude when dealing with others.


Not just the CMC guys, but many people will not touch hands I think because of what I call taiji cowboys. People really not interested in learning anything other then trying to make a name for themselves.

Its not worth the time, and some cases may result in injury to the cowboy.

[backbreaker]

Ah, bamboo leaf might be correct, some guy from bullshido or someone might want to try and do something dumb. I have heard on other threads right here that some instructors of other styles are no longer allowing people to watch their classe because it won't look good in their inexperienced eyes, without feeling it. So there could really be something to that. But in general I say put it on video, who care what wannabes say, but there could be something to what bl says.

[Ma_Xu_Zha]

Maybe I was harsh on them but I have nothing but a few bad tastes from a few bad apples in the bunch and it went deep into a channel called my heart. It was my first style I learned as well ....and I moved on to other taiji 'flavors' and 'accessories' so I am not 'pure' anymore.

[Chuck Man Chuck]

backbreaker,

You stated:

"My chen man ching/ tchoung ta tchen old yang style instructor exposed me to basically every style of instructor imaginable,..."

I thought the "Tchoung ta tchen" Tai Chi was an old Old Yang style, in an aspect of concern to me, it uses a "centering step" pattern instead of a "box step" pattern as in CMC style. Or, are you just doing Tai Chi both ways -doesn't that really mess-you-up, form wise? It does me!

Do you live in Spokane? I'm moving there next month.

Chuck

[Repulsive Monkey]

The rreality is of course that Tchoung ta tchen, Benjamin Lo & Wiilaim Chen aren't American students of Chengs. They were his Taiwanese disciples and they are vastly different from American students (not disciples!) of Chengs and that makes all the difference.
Maybe not all American students are of the same calibre, but most I've heard about are naff. My lineage comes from Dr Chi Chiang-tao again another disciple from the Taiwanese group of 20 students that Cheng taught in Taiwan, and our Taiji is open to all, we are encouraged to push hands with not just others styles of Taiji but other martial arts in general.

I'm sorry to say this but the American students Taiji of Chengs is very much different to the Taiwnese disciples of Cheng, and the number one highlight of this I think is their attitudes and egos.

[bamboo_ leaf]

I think BB may have some problems answering. :(

(thought the "Tchoung ta tchen" Tai Chi was an old Old Yang style, in an aspect of concern to me, it uses a "centering step" pattern instead of a "box step" pattern as in CMC style. Or, are you just doing Tai Chi both ways -doesn't that really mess-you-up, form wise? It does me!)

I no longer practice the CMC style, at this time I practice a another yang style variant, in my experience I don’t see how it would be really possible to practice both ways. Until the taiji becomes your taiji it seems that it would only cerate confusion.


Repulsive Monkey,

Interesting I worked out with a Mr. Chi K W that learned directly form CMC in Taiwan and later moved to the US many years ago. He suggested that I practice with Ben which I later did for a short while.

I never met an of the others you talked about, to bad if their practice is one of preserving sheltering instead of exploring and opening. to bad

[yangchengfu04]

Of course I don't know this for sure, but I have read that some other well-known students of Yang Cheng Fu stated that CMC wasn't even really that good. They said he was much "junior" to them in skill level and nobody really thought much about him. It seems that his reputation grew mainly because he was one of the first few to come to America and start teaching. That, and also Robert W Smith's glowing review of working with him. CMC himself even said he only got 70% of Yangs art. Who knows for sure, but it may even be less?

I'm sure CMC had much skill (especially compared to all the yoga-type TC teachers today) but maybe not as much as everyone thinks he does. Think Bruce Lee here....

[Ma_Xu_Zha]

I think someone made a good point about those who practiced as disciples with cheng man ching in Taiwan and those americans who practice with disciples of cheng man ching. Even though robert Smith practiced with cheng man ching...he still practiced with many others in taiwan. my feeling about robert smith is he is a little weird...just read his book "martial musings"....robert smith students are probably the most weird of all the cheng man ching people. those are the ones who think high of themselves and of traditional protocol like they are part of the high level in the yang taiji ladder.

one statement for them- go see Yang Zhen Dou, Fu Sheng Yuan or Tung Kai Ying. these are good yang taiji people. quit acting like something your not, its all about knowing who you are not who you should be.

[Thundermudd]

From my experience, the people that I have come across that practice the CMC Taiji are doing it strictly for health purposes.
Most of those that I have spoken to have lousy body integration and have very little if any conception of the martial aspects.
I'm not saying that this is something that adheres to all of the CMC practitioners. I have found that many of those who I have spoken to have a very superficial knowledge of IMA's, that there is more to IMA's than forms. This is not their fault - it is simply the way that the art is being passed along.

[bamboo_ leaf]

One could also make the case that many of those who say they teach taiji combat have very little in the way of internal skills.

as you say its not their fault but the way the art was presented to them ;)

[SPJ]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8162222609571015204&q=tai+chi

have fun.

:)

[RAF]

Why does Zhang Man Qing, during pushing hand demonstrations, continue to lift and place his front foot in to the centerline of the opponent before he does his final release?

I've practiced a similar moving step pushing hands drill but did not think this was part of the Zhang Man Qing practice.

[TenTigers]

yeah, me too. He must be doing it wrong.:p
That was an awesome vid. My OL's Grandfather trained with him. I've only seen stills, never saw him move. It was strange seeing him play his form, you can see he was getting on in years, but when he moved, it was another story. Kind of how they described Uyesheba.

[beaudacious]

That was NICE. Not a yang expert or anything but he looked very fluid there old age or not.

[Repulsive Monkey]

Zheng may not of been a Yang expert, as he said he only got 70% of Yang Cheng fu's art off of him, but Zheng definitely had something.
Even to this day many Yang family exponents put Zheng down, but Zheng couold definitely hold his own.

[wuqigong]

I get thought chen man ching's form. I'm a first year's student. I've been talking to many other people that practice tai chi and I found it this is very different then usual yang styles. It's more directed to health then fighting. Now I wonder if I practice this style long enough, would I be able to start using it as a martial art more and more? Or is it better to find another teacher that teaches in a way they do more in wushu..

[TenTigers]

Cheng Man-Ch'ing was well-known for his fighting, and his student, William Chen was Taiwan's full-contact champion, and William Chen's son and daughter also compete full-contact, and have outstanding records. So, yes. If you have a good teacher, Like William Chen, you will be able to fight.

[wuqigong]

Okay, thankz. Now I can train on fully motivated!

[chud]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8162222609571015204&q=tai+chi

have fun.

:)

Thanks for posting that SPJ, good stuff.

[YongChun]

Is there any way to save this video clip on my hard drive?

Ray

[shaolinboxer]

Home sick instead of out partying over my vacation :(. That made my day :)!

[fajinpower]

yeah, me too. He must be doing it wrong.:p
That was an awesome vid. My OL's Grandfather trained with him. I've only seen stills, never saw him move. It was strange seeing him play his form, you can see he was getting on in years, but when he moved, it was another story. Kind of how they described Uyesheba.

Do you study ... AIKIDO and/or Tai Chi???

[fajinpower]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8162222609571015204&q=tai+chi

have fun.

:)


May I ask a silly question. So I heard of his name and he is a master and everything. But who is he, where does he train, why is he famous, and or what style? Please elaborate. Thank you.

[SPJ]

http://www.egreenway.com/taichichuan/cheng1.htm#Links

[robu]

Is there any way to save this video clip on my hard drive?

Ray

Yes there is. The file is in some sort of flash video format.

Goto this page to download the clip. You need the URL of the clip.
http://dev2.traxio.net/projects/googlevideo/

And you need a "flv" player inorder to be able to view the file. You can get a free "flv" player here:
http://www.snapfiles.com/get/flvplayer.html

There is a plugin for firefox that will download files from google video but I don't have the URL for that. If you want to do it the hard way, follow this link:
http://www.lifehack.org/articles/lifehack/how-to-download-google-video.html

/Robert B

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

My holiday gift to the forum - http://media.putfile.com/Cheng-Man-Ching

[robu]

It seems that the VideoLan player supports flv playback:
http://www.videolan.org/

Here is a simple free program to convert flv files to mpeg or avi. The avi file produced is uncompressed and will be quite large. You can use virtualdub to recompress it to a format of your own choice.
http://rainscape.org.uk/flvconvert.zip
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=104183

Here is another program that is somewhat more combersome to use:
http://www.rivavx.com/index.php?encoder&L=3

You have to set the video and audio parameters to match the input video parameters for best quality and you have to change the extension of the output file. Instructions on how to use it can be found here:
http://www.videohelp.com/forum/archive/t259578.html

[qiphlow]

wow! that's neat! i liked the fencing--we don't see too much of that anymore.

[Taiji-Rory]

That was cool, I don't know a lot about Chen Man Ching’s style of Yang Taiji, but the foot raising thing is similar to something we do in Wu style.

[Repulsive Monkey]

If I'm right the video there was taken up to about a year before Prof died after he left and went back to Taiwan.
Although for the camera he makes use of showing some clear aspects of yielding and attack he is also pretty freeform and so the lifting up of the foot is one of those things that some students would copy it thinking it was the wat forward.

A lot of the American students tended to copy his every motion and some of his mistakes too and missed on some of the essence of what he was teaching.

The lineages of the Taiwanese disciples has a stronger line and has lasted more intact I feel than the American students because they managed to get more out of Prof.
This is my undertsanding anyway.

[Ng Jit]

Check this out this is my sifu doing Cheng Man Ching's form with one of his young students... This kid is pretty **** good...

http://myspacetv.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=23021509

[Stickgrappler]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-r41VTs91wAo/U9eB_eM7xiI/AAAAAAAAHBs/WJSEVTSHLXE/s1600/zmq-bday1.jpg

Happy 112th Birthday Zheng Manqing (aka Cheng Man-ching) (郑曼青)!

http://www.stickgrappler.net/2014/07/happy-112th-birthday-zheng-manqing-aka.html

[SPJ]

He promoted yang tai chi in Taiwan and the western world.

:cool: