WCK strength, conditioning and nutrition [Archive]

chusauli

12-02-2007, 08:05 AM

Gurokevin

12-02-2007, 08:51 AM

This is what I use for nutrition. I am 5'7" and 180lbs. But only 5% body fat, thanks to this system.

http://precisionnutrition.com/cmd.php?pageid=471927

k gledhill

12-02-2007, 11:38 AM

i eat pasta and hit the heavy bag :D

Ultimatewingchun

12-02-2007, 11:39 AM

Good first post, Robert.

I too endorse lots of walking on a daily basis, pushups, situps, proper diet, etc.

But I want to add a few significant things to the list.

1) Stretching

2) Trampoline

3) Proper amounts of sleep.

Stretching (and certain yoga postures are a must in my book) is very important toward one's overall health and prevention of injuries - as the spine, back, leg muscles, neck, joints and blood/oxygen flow need lots of free mobility in order for the body to stay healthy.

Trampoline cardio workouts (I like to do it to music) are excellent for building cardio-vascular endurance. And the trampoline is one of the least stressful forms of cardio workout for one's knees.

Can't say enough about getting at least 6.5 -7 hours of sleep each night. As the body needs this rest to reinvigorate itself and lack of sleep weakens the immune system - making one more prone to illness.

chusauli

12-02-2007, 02:26 PM

Kevin,

Pasta might be fine for you, but for people with diabetes, not exactly the best thing to do. Also carbs like pasta, rice, bread, tortillas, potatoes can be detrimental to one's health if done to excess.

What do you do on the heavy bag? i.e. how long, what routine? You train by time, rounds, etc? How heavy is the bag?

Best regards,

chusauli

12-02-2007, 02:36 PM

Victor,

Many thanks for your input!

What yoga postures do you consider a must? Do you hold them for six breaths or more? What is the mind set when you do these?

Trampoline is great - how long do you do it for and at what pace? I agree it is great for the knees as a low impact exercise. Do you do rounds or time? Or do you for sets with reps?

I personally walk 5 miles a day as a goal and often do more. I suggest everyone get a pedometer, especially if they have a desk job...

Sleep is very important - the body has to shut down for repairs. Immunity is impaired and overloaded with a lack of sleep. 8 hours is great!

Another great way to rest is taking a nap or meditating, yoga, or Qigong. They are all geat for allowing the body reset. Biofeedback is also a good means as is guided meditation/hypotherapy.

Exercise is one of the best ways to get rid of toxins in the body, as is sauna, massage, stretching, hot tub, steam room, or anything that induces sweat. Of course herbs and foods also induce sweating. Its very important as people are exposed to toxins in the environemt and through foods. I always advocate eating organic.

Very enjoyable chatting so far!

Many thanks for everyone's input!

Lugoman

12-02-2007, 03:16 PM

I hate to sound like one of those "advocates" for the latest fitness fads, but I've been hitting the kettlbells 4 times a week and I'm feeling great.

After a set of 30-40 single arm swings I can literally feel my heart beating against my sternum. I think it's improving my stance strength as well and the springiness of my arms and it really seems to drive home the concept of the body moving as a unit because you won't be very successful swing a 35-45 lbs iron ball around with mere arm strength.

I also skip rope for 10 mins a day and I'm thinking about continuing running, but since we have snow and ice on the ground now I am always leery of slipping and tearing something.

As for nutrition, I feel that the Abs diet is about the best balanced eating plan I've found, for me anyone. There I go, sounding like a sales pitch for another fad. :)

chusauli

12-02-2007, 06:25 PM

Lugoman,

Having trained under Mark Cheng, RKC (who trains directly under Pavel) and Valery Fedorenko in KettleBells, I am an advocate as well. They are great! Snatches, Clean and press, Long Cycle, Turkish getups, 1/4 getups, and swings are indispensible to the WCK practitioner, that's why Alan Orr, Dave McKinnon, and many of my other students and grandstudents have been using this training method. They are just great for endurance, strength and core muscle, in addition to being a skill that emphasizes full body movement. But one can't just pick them up and do them - they have to be trained in good form, preferably with a coach, lest the KB's prove to be deadly and injurious to the practitioner. I also highly suggest using EDT training methods.

BTW, Mark Cheng's Four Play and Trifecta are on Youtube and certainly great exercises. They are great circuit training methods.

Jump rope is also great for cardio and mixing it with pushups and crunches, and you have one of the best training methods out there.

As for the ABs Diet, I think it is a great starting area, but my only caution is too many cold shakes are bad for some people. The glycemic food index is invaluable. The exercises are great. The book is worthwhile to any athlete who has lost his 6 pack. Pick 3 to 6 exercises from this book and it will firm up the flab around the gut.

WCK due to the economical nature does not always advocate working hard in a physical sense, and it is good that other training is sought when the body fails to be challenged.

Mark Cheng once said to me, "The era of the fat martial arts teacher is over." I think it is good advice for all of us.

Great post!

k gledhill

12-02-2007, 07:02 PM

Ultimatewingchun

12-02-2007, 08:04 PM

"What yoga postures do you consider a must? Do you hold them for six breaths or more? What is the mind set when you do these?" (Robert)

***I HOLD for at least 8 seconds - sometimes more. I don't know all the particular names, but one of them is the cat stretch. There are about 6 yoga postures that I use all the time - mixed in with some other western style stretches.

My serious head-to-toe stetching workouts last about 20 minutes for a minimum of 3x per week. (Although a few particular stretches are done every day). And 3x times per week (after the first 20 minutes) I go on to include Hindu squats, Hindu pushups, situps, pull ups, chin ups, back/neck bridges, another body weight exercise aimed at the triceps called "the stretcher" (because you look as though you're on a hospital stretcher at a 45 degree angle when you do it) - exercises to strengthen the eye muscles...

chi kung circular breathing exercises (with a visualization of light traveling around my centerlines)...and some raja yoga concentration (pre-meditation) drills...and a few other things along these lines.

...............................................

"Trampoline is great - how long do you do it for and at what pace? I agree it is great for the knees as a low impact exercise. Do you do rounds or time? Or do you for sets with reps?" (Robert)

***I do it for time. 30 minutes non-stop each time, minimum 3x per week.

Wu Wei Wu

12-02-2007, 10:15 PM

today, to warm up:

skipping
pushups
shadow boxing

then with weighted vest, circuits of the following:

single leg squats
skipping
bag (BOB) work (2 mins rounds of boxing with additional hand weights and 16oz gloves)
straight punching sets on BOB
shovel kick sets on BOB

workout took just over 70 mins. today was a 'rest' day.

chusauli

12-04-2007, 12:11 PM

Wu Wei Wu - great idea for off WCK training days. Vests are great and used since olden days. Hitting the Bob is a lot of fun. You can do Tabata protocols for 20 sec activity and 10 seconds rest, then continue for 8 more "sets". Skipping rope is great and develops light footwork, CV endurance and coordination.

Victor, very interesting approach - you combine internal training and Qi gong into your work - balances things out. Do you do mostly holding stretches as opposed to bouncing type? Matt Furey's work on Combat Conditioning includes Hindu squats, Hindu pushups, situps, pull ups, chin ups, back/neck bridges - I think they are all great body exercises.

What do the rest of you do?

KPM

12-04-2007, 12:26 PM

Every morning I spend about 20 minutes doing range of motion exercises for the entire body with emphasis on the spine. These are based upon Scott Sonnon's "Warrior Wellness" and "Intu-Flow" programs (www.rmaxinternational.com) As a MD and DC I can attest to the fact that these exercises go a long ways in preventing and treating chronic neck and back pain. I teach them to my patients.

While in Iraq I didn't have access to clubbells, and so adapted some of the clubbell motions to the dumbbells that I did have access to. The exercises are based on "circular strength" ideas rather than "linear strength" and so tend to be swinging motions rather than your typical weight-lifting motions. I have one of Pavel's Kettlebell programs on my Christmas wish list and look forward to learning the KB exercises.

Like Victor mentioned, I also make use of Hindu Squats and Hindu push ups. I don't mean to sound like a commercial for RMAX, but Scott Sonnon has developed many exercises that are similar to those two traditional Indian exercises. They are part of his "Prasara Yoga." I use many of these as well.

Since I didn't like to run where people could launch mortars at me and I get too bored on the stationary trainers in the gym, I have been spending 20 minute sessions working the heavy bag 3x/wk to try and maintain some cardio conditioning. By keeping the intensity up, I felt like this was equivalent to a going at a moderate pace on the treadmill or elliptical for the same length of time. Now that I'm home I will probably expand on my cardio conditioning.

reneritchie

12-04-2007, 12:37 PM

I've been doing Muscle Balance and Function (MBF), as rehab after a continuing series of bad knee and neck injuries, but mostly to counteract 8+ hrs a day behind a desk threatening to devolve me back to proto-simian-like posture.

Once I'm healthy and have achieved some measure of proper human function again, I think I might look up those bell shaped kettles...

Ultimatewingchun

12-04-2007, 12:52 PM

"Victor, very interesting approach - you combine internal training and Qi gong into your work - balances things out. Do you do mostly holding stretches as opposed to bouncing type? Matt Furey's work on Combat Conditioning includes Hindu squats, Hindu pushups, situps, pull ups, chin ups, back/neck bridges - I think they are all great body exercises." (Robert)

***Yes, we're on the same page. It's Matt Furey's COMBAT CONDITIONING book that first got me interested in the exercises we're talking about. And then I learned that he got the workout from old time catch wrestling great Karl Gotch (who recently passed away).

And I add just a little bit of bouncing on a few of the stretches - but mostly I'm just holding them.

And yes again, combining internal mental (raja yoga) and internal energy (chi kung) training with physical conditioning and martial training really boosts the whole process to a higher level. I'm convinced of that.

donbdc

12-04-2007, 02:51 PM

I was trained under Mike Krivka, RKC. He is a Dan Inosanto student and introduced Dan to Pavel. I use the KB's do pull ups and lots of Ball work.. I use Mar Verstegens Core Performance book. Many of the excercises in their I can use w/ patients who suffer w/ Low back pain. I think a good Core allows me to do my job and keep training at 47. A good core will prevent injuries and help you deliver one mean punch. This along w Sifu Randy's 1064 kicks drill , keeps me kickin:)

Chuan fa

12-04-2007, 04:06 PM

I try to start each day with taiji, qigong (15 years experience before starting wing chun) and a few vinyasa postures. I always end with SNT.

In the afternoons (M, W, F) I usually like to mix things up a bit with a variety of exercises in my home gym that includes whole body routines using smith machine, free weights and pullups followed by several rounds on the heavy and speed bags and ending with wooden dummy practice. On other days (Tues and Thurs) its several minutes of jumping rope followed by lots of pole work then Chum Kiu, Biu Gee and jong practice.

Evenings (M, T and F) if work/time allows, Im at my sifu's place learning and practicing. If I cant make it to class, I practice for at least 2hrs at home. Saturday and Sunday I usually rest unless I get the urge to go running.

chusauli

12-04-2007, 08:21 PM

Hi guys,

This I hope will give some food for thought:

http://www.dragondoor.com/articler/mode3/57/

http://www.t-nation.com/readArticle.do;jsessionid=DBF4142AA8E1EEE1D84995B9 F3EE1AC3.hydra?id=731656

Written by Charles Staley, whom I think is one of the greatest authorities on training.

Maybe some of you could use a push to get back to the gym on your off days or supplement your martial arts training.

Best regards,

sanjuro_ronin

12-05-2007, 06:03 AM

http://www.dragondoor.com/articler/mode3/57/

I've been saying that to people for ages !! :(

http://www.t-nation.com/readArticle....ydra?id=731656

I am a fan of doing something different every workout, within the context of the SAME type of workout.
I don't agree that, in one week, you should do powerlifting, olympic lifting, bodybuilding AND you MA training ( HIIT or moderate), I think that it would be best to focus on One thing in that given week ( or for a longer period say 2 weeks or 4 weeks) and then focus on somethign else.
EX:
Powerlifting for 2 weeks, then olympic for 2 then the "body building" type for 2.
You can do it for longer periods up to 6weeks, or shorter, 1 week each type, but I think that doing a different type each workout will not let you establish a "consistency" in your training and some sort of consitency is needed.

The problem with many Strength programs is that they are NOT designed as "supplementary training" but as the main focus of a training cycle, when you are working out 6 days a week and at least 3 days of them are ST ( which leaves another 3 days for MA), then its not supplementary training, its training on par with MA.
And your body will feel it, the more intense the ST the more your body will pay the toll.

chusauli

12-07-2007, 01:04 PM

I think what Charles Staley is saying is that you can vary up your training to keep you interested, motivated and to have fun.

A sample week might be:

Doing deadlifts and presses Monday, then off Tuesday/or your martial arts day, followed by Clean and Jerk and snatches on Wednesday, then Thursday off/your martial arts day, followed by Friday with renegade rows, farmer walks, then Saturday for your martial arts day, followed by Sunday for rest. Then repeat again, and again, and again, and you will get strong with consistency. I do not think he is saying really be a "body builder", "Olympic weightlifter", or "Strongman" - just take things to vary things up and have fun with.

Basically weight training is either pulls or pushes, whole body or isolated. You only need a few exercises. WCK people would do well to do a few good exercises that would strengthen the body. Skills are part of the mix, but conditioning is king.

sanjuro_ronin

12-07-2007, 01:30 PM

Basically weight training is either pulls or pushes, whole body or isolated. You only need a few exercises. WCK people would do well to do a few good exercises that would strengthen the body. Skills are part of the mix, but conditioning is king.

Indeed, now you/we just have to seetle/agree on what TYPE of conditioning

Ultimatewingchun

12-07-2007, 02:10 PM

jesper

12-07-2007, 03:53 PM

Indeed, now you/we just have to seetle/agree on what TYPE of conditioning

Some say this works wonders.

http://shock.military.com/Shock/videos.do?displayContent=155334&ESRC=marine.nl

Personally oh well :p

PS dont mind the little commercial first

HardWork8

12-08-2007, 07:18 PM

Hi!

What methods do you employ for strength and conditioning and nutrition? Most people use the forms, drills, Jong, weapons for overall health and they're fine for overall fitness. But what other drills do you do for yourself to improve your performance, shape and health? Also, dim sum is a great treat, and having late night dinners might be the norm after a work out - but may not the best of health for you... perhaps you are gaining unwanted pounds and need to move into a functional, wiry, athletic state. Perhaps your blood pressure, blood sugar and cholesterol are up...maybe you're battling diabetes, or have cancer in your family, or even have injuries...

As a licensed practitioner, I do specialize in giving patients health advice, and I would like to see WCK people benefit to be optimal athletes.

For example, I suggest patients take a minimum 10,000 steps a day, do 10 pushups, squats and crunches for every hour they're awake, and may put them on a detox diet with suppplements to overall help their health. Also avoid sugars and junk food snacks, and the pounds start shedding.

For my athletes, we do KB lifts, boot camp training, and all sorts of exercises to supplement WCK - but of course, WCK needs no supplement - the pole and knives can be good weight training in themselves, and Chi Sao can be good dynamic weight training...

We are more apt to run into health issues than ever use WCK for fighting - but if we use WCK as a vehicle to help people stay healthy and fight disease, we all win. I'd like to hear from you! We can have this as a great discussion for all WCK people, no lineage issues here.

best regards,

When time allows, I do some chi kung in the mornings and in the evenings, just before going to bed and just after a 20 minute minimum on a single Siu Lim Tao session.

Whenever possible I do the chin ups, using various hand positions and other resistance training as well as plenty of leg raises on the ground.

I do regular iron palm training, as in hitting the sand bucket in a wide horse stance, combined with the special breathing required for this excersise. I also do the sand bag practice and practice the Chum Kiu regularly.

Generally speaking, I use the stairs wherever I go and incorporate stretching in my daily activities. Combined with my current kung fu training in a great kwoon (however, not Wing Chun), this regime provides me with good results.

With more spare time I would expand on these exercises, but that is in the (near) future.

chusauli

12-09-2007, 09:29 AM

Indeed, now you/we just have to seetle/agree on what TYPE of conditioning

Yup, A few good exercises like:

Deadlifts, Presses, Sumo Squats, regular squats, clean and jerk would be great with the barbell, dumbbell, or kettlebell.

These all strengthen the core and make use of the legs, and have an explosive requirement.

I might recommend KB swings for low bak and hip problems.

My student, Dave McKinnon wrote an article in IKF on strengthening punches.

For WCK, I highly recommend the Pelvic Bridge, held statically for 6 breaths.

Best regards,

chusauli

12-09-2007, 10:01 AM

Skills are equally as important as conditioning. If your skills are just so-so and you're greatly conditioned - but you go up against someone who is also in top condition but highly skilled...

you're in trouble.

Hi Vic,

That's obvious, and I agree.

And also if the highly skilled is out of condition, he could lose against the greatly conditioned with mediocre skills. It all depends.

I would suggest the new starting WCK people who are out of shape that conditioning should be a priority for them while developing basic skills. They should concentrate on developing "gung".

Good discussion.

Ultimatewingchun

12-09-2007, 10:59 AM

Agreed, Robert.

Every class I've ever taught all these years has started with 25-30 minutes of nothing but stretching, strenghtening, conditioning, cardio exercises, etc. It's an absolute must - and especially so for wing chun practitioners. For some reason this aspect of martial art training has been downplayed within many wing chun circles.

Don't really know why. Probably having something to do with the mistaken and somewhat arrogant notion entertained by some that since wing chun principles, strategies, and techniques - when truly understood and worked - can be very advanced in the overall scheme of things...and therefore conditioning and strenghtening is not that important.

But that's not the way to go, as far as I see it.

Strengthening and conditioning is of the utmost importance - along with high level skills.

KPM

12-10-2007, 07:13 AM

For some reason this aspect of martial art training has been downplayed within many wing chun circles. Don't really know why.

---I can give you one big reason why. For some, they have limited time to train and practice their WCK and they want to optimize their time with their teacher and fellow students. They can do conditioning on their own or at the local health club. Why waste precious WCK training time on sit ups? But for others, they may not want to go to a health club and don't have the discipline to do conditioning consistently on their own. So they join a martial arts class as their way to get exercise. I can see both perspectives. I tend to be the type that says...if I only have two days a week to work with my sifu, and I drove an hour and a half to get here...don't spend my time in class doing conditioning....teach me WCK! I'll do my conditioning on the nights I don't come to WCK class! :eek:

sanjuro_ronin

12-10-2007, 07:24 AM

Sometimes people confuse training with practising.

Strength and conditioning are part of training, not practising.

Ultimatewingchun

12-10-2007, 07:41 AM

"Strength and conditioning are part of training, not practising." (sanjuro)

***YEP. THAT'S IT. :cool:

chusauli

12-11-2007, 10:44 AM

---I can give you one big reason why. For some, they have limited time to train and practice their WCK and they want to optimize their time with their teacher and fellow students. They can do conditioning on their own or at the local health club. Why waste precious WCK training time on sit ups? But for others, they may not want to go to a health club and don't have the discipline to do conditioning consistently on their own. So they join a martial arts class as their way to get exercise. I can see both perspectives. I tend to be the type that says...if I only have two days a week to work with my sifu, and I drove an hour and a half to get here...don't spend my time in class doing conditioning....teach me WCK! I'll do my conditioning on the nights I don't come to WCK class! :eek:

Keith,

Learning the skills is a given, however, the strength and conditioning aspect will allow you to perform your skill all the better.

For example, everyone knows I teach the structure first - that is supposed to be the core foundation of WCK, yet so many people say the same words and give it lip service. They think its the "look" of WCK, when in actuality, it is the "feel" of WCK. It is that core pressure that comes from the base of Yee Ji Kim Yeung Ma and other stances to literally "Bik" (Close/Press) you to death.

Hawkins Cheung taught me to imagine a Baat Jaam Dao sticking out of my sternum and pelvis and to stab my opponent with that. :)

If the students don't train to condition it and make it a part of their body, then it is show WCK - looks like WCK, but only has the briefest of body connection. It is mediocre WCK at best. BTW, this is a small man's skill in WCK, big men hardly develop it unless they realize that there are even bigger opponents. :)

My structure tests really show if you have this skill or not.

Best regards,

YungChun

12-11-2007, 12:33 PM

And what happens, or is supposed to happen when that YJKYM stance 'force' meets a greater force?

Is this "true" YJKYM stance "immovable"?

sanjuro_ronin

12-11-2007, 01:01 PM

And what happens, or is supposed to happen when that YJKYM stance 'force' meets a greater force?

Is this "true" YJKYM stance "immovable"?

YJKYM ???
Yuppies
Jerking
Karate dressed
Young
Men ???

:eek:

YungChun

12-11-2007, 01:05 PM

YJKYM ???
Yuppies
Jerking
Karate dressed
Young
Men ???

:eek:

No it's..

Yup Just Kata You Moron... LOL:cool::eek::D;)

sanjuro_ronin

12-11-2007, 01:10 PM

No it's..

Yup Just Kata You Moron... LOL:cool::eek::D;)

LOL !!!
Nice !

chusauli

12-11-2007, 02:43 PM

And what happens, or is supposed to happen when that YJKYM stance 'force' meets a greater force?

Is this "true" YJKYM stance "immovable"?

Yung Chun,

Good questions.

YJKYM is only as "immovable" as there is no force to uproot it.

WCK uses a mobile stance, but always has an emphasis on uprooting. Hence, WCK must always be based on structure.

If there is a fire in your house, you don't think which martial arts steps to use. You don't think, "Should I use Kay Lun Bo (Unicorn Steps), or should I use Chut Sing Ma (7 Star Steps)? Would Gwun Ma (Pole Horse) be appropriate?" You get the hell outta there!

Using YJKYM appropriately, you intercept the opponent's strength, which is cleaved and weakened because you have disrupted his connection, then your timing is based on continuing to disrupt and break his balance. No one stands there - it is dynamic. It is how WCK should feel - i.e. what is the trigger to use my stance and body unity? That's why I say all the posers out there are paying lip service to WCK structure.

All force is directed into the ground and you will always find angles to break the opponent's structure. Of course, the methods of guiding, leading, enticing, redirecting, folding, intercepting, leaking, stealing, detaining, crossing, running, etc. are all there and you can have your choice. In other words, ideally, you should never get uprooted from your YJKYM or other Ma/Horse.

The ones that shift without breaking the opponent's structure are doing some sort of "revolving door pivot dance". Similarly, the ones that step and pivot without affecting the opponent's structure are also incorrect. Not that they are bad or wrong, just simply they just don't know how to use WCK yet.

Hope this answers your questions.

Best regards,

chusauli

12-11-2007, 02:46 PM

YJKYM is only as "immovable" as there is no force to uproot it.

What I meant is no force great enough to uproot it.

Ultimatewingchun

12-11-2007, 02:57 PM

YungChun

12-11-2007, 03:33 PM

What I meant is no force great enough to uproot it.
And how much force is enough to pass your "test"?

Any square stance has the same weak angle, no matter how good the structure.. I can move anyone out of any square stance if I press hard enough and align myself in a bik ma into their weak angle (behind them)..

Like you are here more or less:

http://www.chusaulei.com/martial/articles/articles_root03.jpg

How does the person (is this Terence?) in this picture pass your test? I'm sure you're not claiming that you cannot move him back... Or is it how much force is needed to move him back that you refer to?

What does he do when you move him back? In ChiSao if there is a great enough force to move me I will move the line and realign in order to again issue force, forward energy..

If there is a great force coming in we can use this force.. If your partner does act like a revolving door IMO this is not necessarily, incorrect IMO, if he is facing you and you are not facing him, you are 'wrong' you have lost position IMO.

YungChun

12-11-2007, 03:36 PM

***BUT CURIOUSLY ENOUGH...I didn't see any real core pressure being applied by Alan in the chi sao vid he posted on a different thread. His body posture was in the "position" to do it - but he rarely pressured forward to take his opponent's space away/jam him up/unbalance him. Perhaps once-or-twice....but I saw numerous missed opportunities in this regard.
I agree.. And in my view this had something to do with the force vectors he was using or not, not directly into the centerline/central (water hose) line but using curves and such, which seemingly de-emphasized any linear flow of energy into the CG...

chusauli

12-11-2007, 04:15 PM

And how much force is enough to pass your "test"?

Any square stance has the same weak angle, no matter how good the structure.. I can move anyone out of any square stance if I press hard enough and align myself in a bik ma into their weak angle (behind them)..

Like you are here more or less:

http://www.chusaulei.com/martial/articles/articles_root03.jpg

How does the person (is this Terence?) in this picture pass your test? I'm sure you're not claiming that you cannot move him back... Or is it how much force is needed to move him back that you refer to?

What does he do when you move him back? In ChiSao if there is a great enough force to move me I will move the line and realign in order to again issue force, forward energy...

Hi Yung Chun,

The person in the photo is Lorenzo De La Torre, not Terence Niehoff. :) At that time, he was holding back my 230 pounds comfortably - (I lost a lot of weight recently and now 208). Not bad for a 140 lb guy.

WCK is not a square stance (i.e. a fixed pose), it is a dynamic small square horse. It is a different mind set. They adjust, you adjust. "Ma" is the keyword here - it denotes a live horse, not a fixed, dead pose. You will always find the sweet spot of a dead pose stance. English and Chinese is not a word for word translation - some of it is lost in translation.

Since I never set up parameters to test exactly how much force I am exerting ala "ESPN's Sports Science", I don't know what the exact measurement of force is, nevertheless, it is greater than most WCK people do.

Most WCK people topple/shift at the slightest pressure. They can't even pass structure test one. BTW, this thread is getting hijacked into a structure thread, not Strength and conditioning and nutrition.

Of course, breaking structure is a matter of extending through the body's CoG, that's a given, if one can get through deep enough.

Regarding:

If there is a great force coming in we can use this force.. If your partner does act like a revolving door IMO this is not necessarily, incorrect IMO, if he is facing you and you are not facing him, you are 'wrong' you have lost position IMO.

If one shifts without actively disrupting and breaking the opponent's balance, one is in danger of being tossed about like a rag doll. They will simply use the momentum of the unrooted shift, and throw the shifter all around. WCK shifters generally don't know how to use WCK properly and in what context.

Also, no fool will just stand there and let one shift and let you take his side or back - they will adjust and charge into you. And then without dynamic structure, one ends up again tossed about like a rag doll.

Its lame, dude, lame. :rolleyes:

chusauli

12-11-2007, 04:25 PM

"It is that core pressure that comes from the base of Yee Ji Kim Yeung Ma and other stances to literally 'Bik' (Close/Press) you to death....Hawkins Cheung taught me to imagine a Baat Jaam Dao sticking out of my sternum and pelvis and to stab my opponent with that...My structure tests really show if you have this skill or not." (Robert)

***BUT CURIOUSLY ENOUGH...I didn't see any real core pressure being applied by Alan in the chi sao vid he posted on a different thread. His body posture was in the "position" to do it - but he rarely pressured forward to take his opponent's space away/jam him up/unbalance him. Perhaps once-or-twice....but I saw numerous missed opportunities in this regard.

Victor,

I'm not sure exactly which clip you are referring to. However, Alan is a big boy and knows these methods. Perhaps this is not what he is demonstrating in his clip. Also, WCK is situationally dependent; so it is entirely possible that Alan does not need to use the method of Bik Ma according to the energy he is being fed.

I am suggesting that this Baat Jaam Dao analogy is simply an analogy for the "Bik Ging" (Closing/Pressing Power), which shows where the core body structure is. On a surface level, it is obvious. Later, as one gets more advanced, it gets more subtle and one does not have to turn it on unless one needs it. The majority of people never develop it obviously. As you know, this is why many people cannot use WCK properly.

Oh well...

Alan Orr

12-11-2007, 05:04 PM

Hi Guys

re my chi sao clip.

As my teacher said, at the higher level you can just control the opponents balance and they can not move forward or even make an attack. This is one of the things you can see, if you have that level. The body structure methods give us that control.

Also this is from a instructional dvd, so I was given a demo of contol of structure.

If I was doing my normal chi sao I would even drop the opponent very quickly or walk them over as I hit them and progressed. I was showing the student the errors they where making. Rather that trying to finish or beat them as such.

This was one of my students, who is a very tough guy. He has won many MMA fights. Pound for pound he is one of the strongest guys I know. But you can see I am not allowing him to use his power.

Regards

Alan

YungChun

12-11-2007, 05:24 PM

The person in the photo is Lorenzo De La Torre, not Terence Niehoff. :) At that time, he was holding back my 230 pounds comfortably - (I lost a lot of weight recently and now 208). Not bad for a 140 lb guy.

Holding back is rather nebulous..

WCK is not a square stance

No, but YJKYM is and it has the same weak angle any square stance has..

And has to do with your test #1.

Since I never set up parameters to test exactly how much force I am exerting ala "ESPN's Sports Science", I don't know what the exact measurement of force is, nevertheless, it is greater than most WCK people do.

So to pass the test you have to be able to hold the YJKYM against how much power directed into the core (middle) not the sides of the stance?

I mean how do you tell if you pass your test?

Most WCK people topple/shift at the slightest pressure.

Well I certainly don't but I'm no feather weight..

Aligning ala bik ma IMO is going to generate a hell of a lot more power..

They can't even pass structure test one.

There is no stated measure of how rooted one's YJKYM should be according to this test.

Of course, breaking structure is a matter of extending through the body's CoG, that's a given, if one can get through deep enough.

And at the correct angle, the weak angle of the opponent..

As here..

If one shifts without actively disrupting and breaking the opponent's balance, one is in danger of being tossed about like a rag doll.

The shift is done by the other person's energy--over commitment--if he loses his facing--and the other guy doesn't then the one facing can issue power first....

I'm not a big shifter but it IS in the system.....

Also, no fool will just stand there and let one shift and let you take his side or back

I normally take the flank not via shifting, still if done correctly and it allows one to take superior position and issue force then and there there is nothing lame about it IMO..

I change lines in order to let force go, when I have to, which isn't often, still, in so doing I align for power and issue force..

I've seen folks get launched fully airborne from the power--in fact I've done it myself--no lack of power there..

chusauli

12-11-2007, 05:39 PM

Holding back is rather nebulous..

No, but YJKYM is and it has the same weak angle any square stance has..

And has to do with your test #1.

So to pass the test you have to be able to hold the YJKYM against how much directed into the core not the sides of the stance? I mean how do you tell if you pass?

Well I certainly don't but I'm no feather weight..

Aligning ala bik ma IMO is going to generate a hell of a lot more power..

There is no stated measure of how rooted one's YJKYM should be according to this test.

And at the correct angle, the weak angle of the opponent..

As here..

The shift is done by the other person's energy--over commitment--if he loses his facing--and the other guy doesn't then the one facing can issue power first....

I'm not a big shifter but it IS in the system.....

I normally take the flank but not via shifting, still if done correctly and it allows one to take superior position and issue force then and there there is nothing lame about it IMO..

I change lines in order to let force go, in so doing I align for power and issue force..

I've seen folks get launched fully airborne from the power--in fact I've done it myself--no lack of power there..

Jim,

What I mean is Lorenzo could support my then 230 lbs from a YJKYM with me pressing all of my body weight against him. That's a 140 lb guy holding up 230 lbs!

All WCK people should be able to do that. Its proper alignment in the YJKYM. WCK has that power! Also, this is analogous to the Baat Jaam Dao analogy I was talking about.

Again, repeat after me, "YJKYM is not a fixed stance, it is a dynamic platform!" :)

<sigh>what I could show you in 5 minutes is better than me typing all day long.

Also, Jim, what prevents you from trying test one with some big guy from your class? Have him put his hand on your sternum and press you. If you're standing and you feel rooted while the pressure is on, you have the proper mechanics. If not, well, you have to get better in your understanding of WCK mechanics. I wrote that article maybe 10 years ago and I still think WCK structure is lacking in general.

If one stands like a hunchback or with rounded shoulders, you know its not there. I call that an "S" shaped structure. "S" stands for "$hitty".

In a way, its like doing cleans and snatches (trying to tie back in to the original thread :)). Do them right and the weight is almost floating. In WCK, do the YJKYM right and their weight is negligible. It roots you down to the ground and you're like a lightning rod.

Hope this helps. This is WCK 101, believe it or not.

Gotta check on some patients. This WCK stuff is stressing me out.

YungChun

12-11-2007, 05:44 PM

What I mean is Lorenzo could support my then 230 lbs from a YJKYM with me pressing all of my body weight against him. That's a 140 lb guy holding up 230 lbs!

Well it sounds good.. Personally I think I could palm him into the next century if I were you standing in front of him like that.

The only 230 pounds of force there was under your shoes IMO..

Again, repeat after me, "YJKYM is not a fixed stance, it is a dynamic platform!" :)

Indeed it is, but I was referring to, repeat after me----your pic and your test of a static stance (feet don't move) that IMO in that pic is not dealing with great force, nor is that stance supposed to--that's why it must be dynamic--move/change, in order to change and manage real forces....

I look forward to meeting someone who has passed the test so I can see real WCK stance rooting...:eek::o:cool:

Or better yet...

Let's see a video of someone doing it and holding a bathroom type scale on their chest... The pressure applied would clearly indicate the amount of force it holds.. Very easy to do...

Dan_chi_sau

12-11-2007, 06:45 PM

static stance[/B] (feet don't move) ..

just because feet dont move, does that mean that the rest of your body is not doing anything either? ;) the picture is static, not the stance

YungChun

12-11-2007, 08:00 PM

just because feet dont move, does that mean that the rest of your body is not doing anything either? ;) the picture is static, not the stance
Whatever you want to call it is fine by me...

I simply mean that the stance stays (feet don't move/stance doesn't change) when I use the term static..

It can be as super duper dynamic as you want it and that doesn't change the nature of a bipedal stance. There is always a weak angle in the stance and I would like to see proof that the weak angle (behind/in front of you in YJKYM) can hold any significant force (230 pounds as stated or anything close)..

aaron baum

12-12-2007, 04:24 AM

hello guys...if you go to

http://www.alanorr.com/htdocs/articles/wcpowerarticle.html

there is an article concerning wing chun power...it also covers many of the points that this topic had turned into...and others mentioned in some other posts..re alan orr sifu leaning etc...

you can see with the Medicine ball test that if you have a poor 'S' looking structure in your stance there is no way to effectively control the weight and momentum of the heavy medicine ball...wheras if you have proper rooting you can absorb the impact of the ball without it affecting your structure as well being able to return the ball back with real power and root....we do this test in SLT stance as well, it is exactly the same mechanics but harder...is this exercise not a realistic way to test these mechanics in a live way?

these mechanics then translate into being able to hit someone with real power...something i rarely see in WC unfortunately...re the two set of pictures after the medicine ball test...this loading that people think is leaning is the key to real WC skill and i fear i have not met many who have this...shame...plus gives us the tools to deal with other problems such as grapplers, wheras if you have a poor 'S' shape i guarantee that you will be smashed by decent grapplers etc...

all i can say from my experience training with sifu and sigung for 7 years, is that we have had many, many people come to class to see what we do and i have yet to see 1 person pass Test 1...yet there is a girl called suni at class who is 5'2" and maybe 8 stone who can hold my full body weight on her front and i am 6' and 13 stone...plus obviously which people seem to not realise, is that of course if the point comes when the pressure is too much, we can either sim and let the pressure slide of us, or turn using chum kiu and redirect it, as well as many other things...this test is very basic and just teaches you to begin to understand how to use and become aware of your body rather power rather than just using hand and arm shapes to deal with situations....

getting back to the original post, if you do not train strength and conditioning on a similar par to your skill you will come sorely unstuck in a real situation...in days of old, do you think that people were as weak and unconditioned as we are now as a society? most people did manual work or farmed and as such had naturally developed conditioning...their martial training supplemented and turned that into a more developed skill...they were not unfit people who just learned some principles and thought they could use what they have been shown....YOU NEED IT ALL....and if you say i train just for health and fitness so i dont need to train conditioning etc, do you not think that this will make you fit, be healthier and strong...i see many fit, strong grapplers, wrestlers, boxers, muay thai people, but i can count the number of WC people i have seen who i think **** they are going to be a handful on one hand...

my best to you sigung....keep beasting those KB'S!

aaron

YungChun

12-12-2007, 04:39 AM

If your center of gravity is ahead of your feet then you folks may not call it leaning but a good kung fu guy will yank you right out of your shoes... It's called being over committed and favoring forward pressure over being centered. This works great when both folks are dead set on pressing forward and nothing else, but is problematic when the opponent is sensitive to over committed energy--defined by the CG being out ahead of the feet...

Let's see the proof of the bi-ped stance YJKYM force absorption.. All anyone has to do is make a video of the testee hold a small bathroom scale on their chest and then press on the scale...remember they can't move their feet. Then you'll have an instant measurement of force being redirected.. Once you establish max force then pull your hands back suddenly, or better yet pull them forward suddenly and see if they can still stay rooted and don't fall forward, just as bad as falling backward...

aaron baum

12-12-2007, 05:09 AM

the opposite of what you keep calling a lean is called biting..if you pull me i can bite into the floor, link my body together and stop this..if i train the right way...or i can let go of the bridge by delinking and let the energy fall away..and then as i have my structure loaded by this so called lean i can attack with forward pressure with power...to be honest when ive rolled with other schools bar none and i mean none, they are the ones who get pulled...they cant handle our forward pressure...if they run they get chased down, if they try and pull they lose balance backwards because they are on their heels, and if they react by trying to match your forward pressure they get floated or pulled themselves...no bull****...i have met none who possess this many levels of skills...plus the horse is mobile, if i do get pulled forward my legs DO work and i can step into you without you unbalancing me...its called footwork..most WC people are stiff from training SLT the normal, incorrect way and they are like a pole balancing on the floor, rather than a fluid dynamic powerful structure that can pull, push, turn, float, subdue, link, delink, run, bite, rub, press, absorb, uproot etc...if you do not understand or practice these terms you have a lower knowledge of the skill with WC

im not attacking anyone but until you have felt this you really do not understand...

best

aaron

YungChun

12-12-2007, 05:20 AM

Erm...movement is a series of controlled falls...what do you think walking is? You move your centre of gravity beyond your base of support then adjust your base of support forward (i.e. step) so that you dont fall over.

In other words there is a difference between falling forward and stepping forward. You dont seem to have grasped this re: our structure.
And this has what to do with test #1 which as far as I know doesn't involve walking... :rolleyes:

aaron baum

12-12-2007, 05:21 AM

nice one nick...we are answering the same question at the same time!

dear god is all i have to say

YungChun

12-12-2007, 05:22 AM

Oh my gosh...golly gee...

Let's see the proof... 200 pounds of redirection without a lean in YJKYM....

aaron baum

12-12-2007, 05:26 AM

it has this do with test 1...you press the chest and you learn to root this pressure...thats test 1...

if he then pulls you, we can DELINK, FLOAT blah blah blah again...if this does not work rather than falling because of somekind of percieved lean we can step forward as mentioned before...the step is not part of test 1 but is a reaction to a certain pressure dealt with from test 1...

YungChun

12-12-2007, 05:30 AM

the step is not part of test 1 but is a reaction to a certain pressure dealt with from test 1...
Indeed..

Fall Step back = Faulty structure

Fall Step forward = Reaction

Uh huh..

In my lineage we call this falling forward from being over committed... Well that's the technical term...

A step has intention being yanked out of your root and stepping is also referred to as an "Oh $hit" move..

sanjuro_ronin

12-12-2007, 05:30 AM

It seems that from the pic posted ( and I am going solely on that) that Robert is not fully commited in his "push", but I don't think that would have mattered because, by the way the recipent is standing, he seems to be "redirecting" the push "down" though his body.
We have similar "stance testing" in Kyokushin and such, though it usually involves sanchin as the stance and strikes as the "pushes".

YungChun

12-12-2007, 05:35 AM

sanjuro_ronin

12-12-2007, 05:53 AM

Sanchin is not a square stance like YJKYM is.

Nope,it is more stable, this is true.

mad101dan

12-12-2007, 06:02 AM

Sanchin is not a square stance like YJKYM is.

But the principle is the same.

Good luck for Sunday guys. :)

YungChun

12-12-2007, 06:04 AM

But the principle is the same.

Good luck for Sunday guys. :)
Totally different structure = totally different result...

Paul is correct, Sanchin is much more stable front to back... It all has to do with alignment of the legs and feet..

sanjuro_ronin

12-12-2007, 06:05 AM

Any clips of this "Stance testing"?

You can't get the reality of it via a picture....

sanjuro_ronin

12-12-2007, 06:06 AM

Totally different structure = totally different result...

Paul is correct, Sanchin is much more stable front to back... It all has to do with alignment of the legs and feet..

And the tension in the ass, never forget the ass tension !!
:D

YungChun

12-12-2007, 06:07 AM

And the tension in the ass, never forget the ass tension !!
:D

Yes I understand it tends to keep out the undesirables.. :o

chusauli

12-12-2007, 06:07 AM

Jim and others,

Have you actually tried Structure Test # 1?

What is the result?

YungChun

12-12-2007, 06:27 AM

Jim and others,

Have you actually tried Structure Test # 1?

What is the result?

The same result anyone would have when the other person who is aligned presses into the weak line of a square stance, no matter how well connected and sprung.

Force is redirected into the ground to a point--and then you have to take a step back--or better yet re-align into a stronger position, like Bik....

Which is stronger than YJKYM front to back--the laws of physics, etc, etc....

YJKYM is not indended to be a bull charge lean, it is intended to be a strong and sprung, yet an unstable/flexible position that can change into even stronger positions--WCK uses small flanks more often than not--do you? WCK is supposed to be highly mobile is yours? Pulling the opponent in is just as valid as moving them back--yin/yang , but what do we see?

At it's core YJKYM contains two halves of the base of all other stances.. Any square stance or any stance has a weak angle!!!! The weak angle of any bi-ped stance is clearly understood to be found by drawing a line between the feet, finding the center of that line and then drawing another line perpendicular to the first line--that is the weak angle.. The WEAK angle of YJKYM is the angle you are "testing" by supposedly applying "200+ pounds" pressing on someone's chest half that weight...

But prove me wrong let's see the light weights redirecting 200 pounds of force without moving their feet from a square YJKYM stance.....

Should be very easy to show/measure, etc...

Ultimatewingchun

12-12-2007, 07:46 AM

"This was one of my students, who is a very tough guy. He has won many MMA fights. Pound for pound he is one of the strongest guys I know. But you can see I am not allowing him to use his power." (Alan)

***First of all, Alan...whenever I watch a vid of an instructional, a sparring match, chi sao, etc. - I always make it my business to watch very carefully what THE OTHER GUY is doing. Not the guy who is being "featured" in the demo/match - but the guy he's working against. (Then I go back and watch what the "featured" guy does in a second viewing).

I HAVE ALWAYS FOUND THIS TO BE ONE OF THE BEST INDICATORS OF THE QUALITY (OR LACK THEREOF) OF THE MOVES BEING USED BY THE MAN BEING FEATURED.

And the guy in that chi sao video with you tries to do basically NOTHING - either offensively or defensively. And that's a fact.

So I've got to tell you in all honesty that I take with a big grain of salt your boast about "not allowing him to use his power."

Dan_chi_sau

12-12-2007, 08:31 AM

more pointless chat....same thing happened on another forum.

This isnt something you can pick up over the net, and most people can't be bothered to go check it out first hand because they're 'happy with what they've got' or 'seen it all before' or 'worried it might put years of training in the bin' etc.
Either check it out or dont.(IMO you should) Asking people for internet proof of what i ,and many other people, know for a fact works very well thank you, from first hand experience, is not getting anyone anywhere. And neither does uninformed smugness.

sanjuro_ronin

12-12-2007, 08:40 AM

Dan_chi_sau

12-12-2007, 08:54 AM

You know, the advice of "go check it out" is fine if you are talking about TKD or Judo, where there is at least one school in every city, not the case here is it?

I drive two and a bit hours each way, for three hours with alan...thats more time in the car than in the gym. Alan goes from york,uk to los angeles to see robert. Its all relative. Now i'm not saying you should leave work right this instant, but people travel, there are seminars etc. hopefully you aren't going to die tomorrow, there'll be chances to check stuff out in future without unreasonable hassle.

Ultimatewingchun

12-12-2007, 08:56 AM

I've already invited Alan and his guys to visit Keith Mazza'a school of TWC in Mt. Laurel, New Jersey...the next time Alan visits Philadelphia (which is only 20 minutes away from Mt. Laurel). Keith is very receptive to the idea, btw.

I'll be there with some of my guys, obviously the same for Keith and his guys, and Phil Redmond as well - since he now teaches at Keith's school.

And then we can all compare notes. :cool:

In the meantime - let me repeat once again (as I mentioned this some time ago on another thread) - I have in my possession a number of Alan's instructional vids - as well as some of the vids of he and his guys training and competing in various venues.

sanjuro_ronin

12-12-2007, 09:01 AM

I drive two and a bit hours each way, for three hours with alan...thats more time in the car than in the gym. Alan goes from york,uk to los angeles to see robert. Its all relative. Now i'm not saying you should leave work right this instant, but people travel, there are seminars etc. hopefully you aren't going to die tomorrow, there'll be chances to check stuff out in future without unreasonable hassle.

In this specific case, I would be FLYING 3000 miles...:eek:

CFT

12-12-2007, 09:21 AM

In this specific case, I would be FLYING 3000 miles...:eek:Marty Goldberg in Milwaukee, Wisconsin is a lot closer to you.

sanjuro_ronin

12-12-2007, 09:31 AM

Marty Goldberg in Milwaukee, Wisconsin is a lot closer to you.

I'd rather fly 3000 miles :D

Just kidding !
Go Packers !

I'll make note of that, in the mean while is there a specific reason why something like this can't be posted ?

CFT

12-12-2007, 09:48 AM

sanjuro_ronin

12-12-2007, 10:01 AM

There is no reason why video of the structure tests can't be posted. Just that it probably still wouldn't convince people. However, it would be better than photos. It would show that it is a dynamic process of re-directing force down from your torso through your stance and into the ground.

I don't think its a question of convincing, people will believe what they want, regardless of what they see, look at the case of ground fighting.

That said, it would allow one to see the dynamics behind the whole thing.

Wu Wei Wu

12-12-2007, 10:45 AM

'strength And Conditioning' Anyone???

Ultimatewingchun

12-12-2007, 10:55 AM

"most WC people are stiff from training SLT the normal, incorrect way and they are like a pole balancing on the floor, rather than a fluid dynamic powerful structure that can pull, push, turn, float, subdue, link, delink, run, bite, rub, press, absorb, uproot etc...if you do not understand or practice these terms you have a lower knowledge of the skill with WC

im not attacking anyone but until you have felt this you really do not understand..." (Aaron Baum)

***SPEAK FOR YOURSELF...I train SLT the CORRECT WAY. And of course it's always fluid, with a structure that can push, pull, subdue, sink, link, delink, absorb, redirect, etc. And so the point is...
I already understand. And futhermore - there is only so much you can do from this stance when pressure is being applied right at your center - and no more.

What a big to-do about nothing, I swear.

sanjuro_ronin

12-12-2007, 11:20 AM

'strength And Conditioning' Anyone???

Well, going back on "topic", before a person sets into a training regime, they need to define clear cut goals.

Is YOUR WC explosive? short burst? are you in for the "long run"? is grappling part of the equation?
Are you wanting to maximize size or speed or endurance?
Are you a fighter or are you in for the "long run"?
Are you form over function or function over form?
Etc.

Phil Redmond

12-12-2007, 11:42 AM

Marty Goldberg in Milwaukee, Wisconsin is a lot closer to you.

New Jersey is even closer to the GTA by car than Milwaukee ;)
GTA to Milwaukee = 9 hours, 56 minutes
GTA to Mt. Laurel, NJ = 8 hours, 32 minutes

Ultimatewingchun

12-12-2007, 02:55 PM

"Using YJKYM appropriately, you intercept the opponent's strength, which is cleaved and weakened because you have disrupted his connection, then your timing is based on continuing to disrupt and break his balance. No one stands there - it is dynamic. It is how WCK should feel - i.e. what is the trigger to use my stance and body unity? That's why I say all the posers out there are paying lip service to WCK structure." (Robert Chu - post#36 on page 3 of this thread)

***WHO are these posers you're talking about?

And furthermore, I see a major dis-connect between your first 4 sentences in this paragragh and the "poser" conclusion you arrived at in the 5th sentence.

There is NO logical connection between 1-4 and 5.

In addition, and quite frankly, Robert, there's nothing new in sentences 1-4. This is standard wing chun theory. Are you trying to re-package basic wing chun stance and horse principles under the term "Robert Chu's Full Body Structure Wing Chun"?

Is that what this is all about?

chusauli

12-12-2007, 03:30 PM

Hi Victor,

You're right - there is nothing new here. This is WCK 101, which all people in WCK should know.

Posers are people who have a form, but do not use the body structure as a power base for their WCK and prefer to use localized arm/shoulder strength. They also have terrible ($hitty) posture and do not know how to link up the body and put the body behind their hand forms. They talk about having structure, but the have nothing, hence what I call "lip service". This is known as copying the form, but having no content in the form, hence, a poser.

Let me take you back....just think of a GI Joe with kung fu grip. :) You can have GI Joe poseable and have him stand with his kung fu grip, but he'll topple over with the slightest of pressure. That's a poser in Robert Chu lingo. :D LOL!

Who's a poser? Anyone without the power base, body structure, and who does not feel the root in their WCK from the ground up. That's real obvious when you touch hands...

Can't pass test one and four? You could say that was a poser. That's one way you can tell. The test is not for me to test everyone, but for everyone to test themselves. Can't make it work? Making up reasons? How do you make it work? That's the homework, guys and gals. I don't do the work for any one. You do your own work, that's Gung fu man, you got it or not.

All great people from many lineages have body structure, for example, Tsui (Chu) Sheung Tien, Ho Kam Ming, Wong Shun Leung, Hawkins Cheung, Alan Lee, Duncan Leung, etc. I'd prefer not to list everyone who has it or not for political reasons, or else its blah, blah, blah, Robert Chu sez... that becomes nonsense. And not that my $hit don't stink, I originally had no structure, too.

Some teach it, others do not, and some teach it a lot better. And some people only have parts of it, whereas some don't have it at all. And finally, those that have it can readily recognize the skill of others that have it or not. And if you don't think you have it, you don't. Worse is when you think you have it, but don't.

Let's just say that Bruce Lee didn't quite have it when he was younger, just look at the famous picture of him in Luk Sao position with Yip Man. Just a look at Yip Man's pelvis shows you where his power comes from. As for Bruce, the power is in his shoulders and he's floating in his stance. But he's an Uncle, and he's passed on. But he did know the stuff later.

So who's a poser? MAybe we should have a new WCK club - Poser's Anonymous. Hi, my name is Robert, and I was a WCK poser...

Pass the tea, please. Teaching WCK 101 is not my job, but people should know WCK 101. Unfortunately you know they all don't...

My thread got hijacked...

Knifefighter

12-12-2007, 04:59 PM

Hi Yung Chun,

The person in the photo is Lorenzo De La Torre, not Terence Niehoff. :) At that time, he was holding back my 230 pounds comfortably - (I lost a lot of weight recently and now 208).

I'm a little guy, and I doubt your 208 could stop me from pushing you back if you stood in a stationary squared-off stance and allowed me to push into you like that.

Phil Redmond

12-12-2007, 08:41 PM

I'm a little guy, and I doubt your 208 could stop me from pushing you back if you stood in a stationary squared-off stance and allowed me to push into you like that.
I agree Dale. That's the problem with static straw man tests. Real fighting is dynamic. I'd have no reason to test to see if I could stand square on while someone pushed me in the chest. It's just like the Tai Chi Sifus who have many people push on their stance. It looks impressive to laypersons but how would you use that in the ring or in a fight against a much stronger opponent who is coming at you? It just doesn't make sense.
I'd rather be moving to avoid force and while striking. Developing dynamic/moving structure should be the goal if you're going to fight. But I guess I'll be accused of having no structure but I'm good with that because I've been very successful with the approach I use. btw, I can do a few tricks like unbendable arm, having people lean all their weight on my bong sao or tan sao etc., but after I demonstrate these things I tell people they are "tricks' done under controlled circumstances that have little or nothing to do with "dynamic" fighting.

chusauli

12-12-2007, 09:02 PM

I'm a little guy, and I doubt your 208 could stop me from pushing you back if you stood in a stationary squared-off stance and allowed me to push into you like that.

Hi Dale,

Better yet, why don't you contact me offline and we'll set up when we can meet and I'll show you how to do the structure stuff and resist my 208 - you being a little guy and all. :)

Structure test is not a method of warding off blows, the objective of the test is to show if you have correct WCK mechanics and if the force gets linked and routed into the ground through your body and legs. Its not even to show off you're king of the hill - its just to show the source of WCK power.

Phil,

Fighting is fighting, structure is structure. In WCK we learn structure so we can have the powerbase to fight with, as it is the source of our power. Its no different from a shot put thrower using his body to generate force to launch the shotput, or being a stable base to use a rocket launcher. If someone can't stand stable, the rocket will go awry. Hope these analogies make things clearer.

I think we shouldn't cop out and think WCK sucks and has no power and that we only have to shift or do MMA, or do some other system to launch WCK tools. Otherwise, our system sucks and WCK is just BS - just a bunch of empty close quarter hand skills put on an unstable base. I guess we should all quit and do MMA then. :(

Best regards,

Knifefighter

12-12-2007, 09:07 PM

Hi Dale,

Better yet, why don't you contact me offline and we'll set up when we can meet and I'll show you how to do the structure stuff and resist my 208 - you being a little guy and all. :)

Are you saying you could stand in the same stance as was shown in that picture and you could stop me from pushing you backwards?

Knifefighter

12-12-2007, 09:09 PM

In WCK we learn structure so we can have the powerbase to fight with, as it is the source of our power. Its no different from a shot put thrower using his body to generate force to launch the shotput, or being a stable base to use a rocket launcher. If someone can't stand stable, the rocket will go awry. Hope these analogies make things clearer.,\

And no different than what one would learn in a month or two of wrestling practice... minus all of the theorizing, of course.

Knifefighter

12-12-2007, 09:11 PM

Exercise is one of the best ways to get rid of toxins in the body, as is sauna, massage, stretching, hot tub, steam room, or anything that induces sweat. Of course herbs and foods also induce sweating.

There is no evidence that exercise removes “toxins” from the body (nor does sweating). As a matter of fact, the evidence points in the opposite direction- that exercise actually produces toxins. The escalation in oxidative activity that comes from exercise results in an increase in free radical production. Free radicals are thought to be responsible for many cancers. Much of the protective effect of exercise more than likely comes from increased resistance to these free radicals, probably as part of the entire Stress Adaptation Syndrome that occurs from training.

The Xia

12-12-2007, 09:19 PM

This is a bit off-topic, but since we are on the YJKYM...
Since you have a background in Hung Gar, can you compare the use of the stance in that style with its use in Wing Chun?

chusauli

12-12-2007, 10:52 PM

\

And no different than what one would learn in a month or two of wrestling practice... minus all of the theorizing, of course.

Dale,

It take only 5 minutes of "theorizing", then the rest is practice in everything you do. I'm not a big yapper.

You sound bitter against WCK. Maybe I've missed something... :confused:

jooerduo

12-12-2007, 11:01 PM

Today 03:07 PM
Knifefighter Quote:

"Originally Posted by chusauli
Hi Dale,

Better yet, why don't you contact me offline and we'll set up when we can meet and I'll show you how to do the structure stuff and resist my 208 - you being a little guy and all. "

Are you saying you could stand in the same stance as was shown in that picture and you could stop me from pushing you backwards?

I haven't seen the picture you guys are talking about but in my workout with some friends I can stand there relaxed and 2 guys were trying to push me but could not, and they also tried to lift me - one on each side of my arm but couldn't lift either. the stance I was in was not a generic wing chun stance but our adopted version of the wing chun stance

you can teach it to an open minded person in 2 minutes

it won't work if someone was running into you though, it works if both parties are already touching before the attacker pushed.

Edmund

12-12-2007, 11:03 PM

chusauli

12-12-2007, 11:03 PM

There is no evidence that exercise removes “toxins” from the body (nor does sweating). As a matter of fact, the evidence points in the opposite direction- that exercise actually produces toxins. The escalation in oxidative activity that comes from exercise results in an increase in free radical production. Free radicals are thought to be responsible for many cancers. Much of the protective effect of exercise more than likely comes from increased resistance to these free radicals, probably as part of the entire Stress Adaptation Syndrome that occurs from training.

Great! Thanks for getting back on track! You are partially correct!

Exercise helps circulate the blood, and helps remove toxins in that manner, via trapped gases (think byproducts of digestion) and carbolic acid through respiration. Also, an increase peristalic action due to exercise causes you to poop and further detox you. Sweat does contain urea, which is a toxin to the body.

Toxins in general are released through breakdown of fats, vomiting, bowel movement, urination, sweating, and through rashes in the skin. You are correct in exercise producing some toxins through cellular breakdown, but of course, through homeostasis, all is maintained in balance. So the benefits of exercise still outweigh not exercising, but I do not think you are not advocating not exercising. :) Of course, over exercising is a possible danger.

chusauli

12-12-2007, 11:07 PM

This is a bit off-topic, but since we are on the YJKYM...
Since you have a background in Hung Gar, can you compare the use of the stance in that style with its use in Wing Chun?

Hung Gar is Hung Gar, WCK is WCK. They are not the same stance, even though it is the same name. It is similar in that one should get power from the stance to strengthen the bridges. In fact in Shaolin, the bridge is an extension of the stance/structure. Hung Gar has an emphasis on rise, fall, open, close, float, sink, swallow and spit. WCK is closer to the last 4 characters, but more subtle.

Hope this helps,

Knifefighter

12-12-2007, 11:09 PM

Dale,

It take only 5 minutes of "theorizing", then the rest is practice in everything you do. I'm not a big yapper.

You sound bitter against WCK. Maybe I've missed something... :confused:

I wouldn't call it bitter... more like amazed at all the b.s. that goes on along with it.

BTW, you didn't answer my question.

chusauli

12-12-2007, 11:10 PM

Dale doesn't actually do WCK.

Oh. Then why is he here discussing WCK? Dale? :confused:

Knifefighter

12-12-2007, 11:14 PM

Oh. Then why is he here discussing WCK? Dale? :confused:

As I've said many times before, I reply to things that I am knowledgeable about and have experience with. I trained WC for a while. I am also a certified strength and conditioning specialist with a degree in exercise science.

If you will notice, I only join the discussions related to things in which I have experience (MMA, grappling, training protocols, etc.) Being a long time grappler, I'm pretty familiar with "structure" as you guys like to call it... and also with many of the parlor tricks that go along with this. Hence, my questions and comments related to this.

chusauli

12-12-2007, 11:22 PM

I wouldn't call it bitter... more like amazed at all the b.s. that goes on along with it.

BTW, you didn't answer my question.

Hey, I'm amazed too, but I think BS comes along with any endeavor. Think BJJ doesn't have its share of personalities, politics, etc? FMA does, too. Look At JKD and their factions!

All in all, people are people, but the art is neutral.

WRT your question, as I said, I can show you what is being done. Using a continuous pressure, not a shove, not a strike, its simply an exercise in mechanics, not a contest. Not king of the hill, but just aligning your body to neutralize force into the ground. Its a simple objective test, rather than immediately tottering over over the slightest pressure. I think people got the wrong impression, they see amazing kung fu movies and think stances are "immoveable". I never said that. I am saying you are neutralizing and cancelling some of your opponent's vectors by rooting into the ground. If its mopre than you can handle, you will have to adjust your step. Its more like surfing or riding a subway. You got to move with it.

Why do you think it can't be done? I guess you think its different than what is being said. I'm a pragmatic person. If a bull is charging me, I get out of the way, too. If you overcome the inertia that I can neutralize, I will be topppled over. But thing is I gotta change with your pressure. Its just a basic skill. Have you tried the test(s)? What is the result? Who did you study WCK with?

Edmund

12-12-2007, 11:25 PM

As I've said many times before, I reply to things that I am knowledgeable about and have experience with. I trained WC for a while. I am also a certified strength and conditioning specialist with a degree in exercise science.

If you will notice, I only join the discussions related to things in which I have experience. Being a long time grappler, I'm pretty familiar with "structure" as you guys like to call it... and also with many of the parlor tricks that go along with this.

Dale, I wasn't criticising your inputs on the thread. I don't mind one way or the other.

Just trying to provide some context for Robert in that you wouldn't care about making your WCK stance resist 208+ lbs since you don't practice WCK (though you used to).

Forgive me if I'm mistaken, but didn't you study WC for 6 years under Hawkins Cheung? Because he's Robert's teacher as well.

Knifefighter

12-12-2007, 11:31 PM

Why do you think it can't be done?

Because I've been a wrestler for 30 years and I know that you cannot stand in that stance the way that was shown in that picture and stop someone from pushing you backwards- especially when there is an 90 lb weight differential... as was implied by the picture

Pictures like that are part of the b.s I was talking about. They are disingenuous in that they imply something that cannot be done in practice.

As far as the structure test, I test it out every time I compete in grappling.

YungChun

12-13-2007, 03:22 AM

What you have to remember is that many wing chun people dont even have this basic level, hence this discussion and peoples insecurity.
Indeed and the BS..

Dale clearly realizes that it ain't possible, as in the pic for that person to hold 200 pounds on his chest without moving back in that stance as was implied..

Nuff said..

YungChun

12-13-2007, 05:16 AM

Why so adamant? I understand your scepticism but you might want to reserve judgment until you actually experience it (I tried the structure test before I started training with Alan and couldnt do it either - and I couldnt see at the time how it could be done).

There are a number of things you dont seem to understand which since they keep coming up I will attempt to address in one post:

First the force applied is a press not a push or shove

Second its *slightly* downward in direction

Thirdly you dont just stay in a static stance...you dynamically adjust the stance in response to the pressure (but without stepping back)

Fourth no its not leaning but it may look like that to someone who doesnt understand (just as BJJ looks like simply rolling around or hugging someone to the untrained eye)

Fifth if they let go suddenly you may step forward (it depends) but you do so in a controlled fashion, not falling or stumbling forward

Sixth if they try and pull you there are a number of things we can do - like 'bite' (a form of pulling back but using the body as a linked whole rather than the local muscles of the arm), delink the bridge (like letting go of the rope in a tug of war, or pulling the rug out from under someone), come in and eat up the space (enter half a beat faster than he is expecting) etc.

Seven no its not saying that in application you just stand there like a tree - rooted and unmoveable. But there are two maxims in wing chun that relate to this 'wing chun does not retreat' and 'wing chun accepts what comes'. I take this to mean that we should be able to root, store, and issue with our structure in response to our opponents pressure...not just simply fall over or step back as a default response. This is not to say however that we dont adjust our structure if we have to including stepping back. Never say Never. Wing chun is flexible. Its not a dogma or religion.
First, I appreciate the reasonable and polite explanation.. Thank you.

Second, I think this explanation makes things a whole hell of a lot clearer than I have seen it made as of late, which made the test out to be much less believable, come off like hyperbole and serve to make everyone who doesn't do it/test it that way to be "posers" cause it's not the case..

Third, while I still don't buy the exaggerated claims, in terms of the amount of force, or agree that YJKYM should try to hold this much force, but I agree you can certainly maximize the ability to root in this manner.

Lastly, while rooting in YJKYM is important I don't follow the same idea, as far as I understand it, of trying to maximize forward power issuing from YJKYM. To me YJKYM is a initial point of flexibility; or a transitional position that allows for a neutral measuring/issuing of force and we adapt--change--reform in order to maximize position as things develop..

In other words if I want to issue max forward power I would not be in YJKYM the classical type square stance, though there may be elements from it in other stances or positions.. Nor would I be worried about being moved back--and by being moved back I mean receiving enough energy to force me out--where I can then move my feet, store that power--sinking and then issue it back on a different line.. Not to say this is the ideal, just another way to manage force..

I see the system as a very mobile one that, no we should not fly away at the least bit of force but use forces received, economically though changing positions, stances in order to load our springs, align the body and send that force back to the opponent. IMO the system should be thought of from the perspective of a small woman, not a large man, and how a smaller weaker person would use our tools.. Not all stance work and movement/changing means staying in YJKYM, but rather IMO using all the other kinds of movement and 'stances' in the system..

It's real easy to make things (ideas, training methods) divisive among different families instead of trying to make these methods something perhaps we all can benefit from as a whole WCK community.. Yes there is a lot of bad WCK out there but not all of it is bad and some of it is actually pretty good. I've seen the good even great, and very powerful WCK from those not in the know of your particular method of 'testing' YJKYM. Perhaps in the future this kind of information and sharing can serve to benefit us all and make us all stronger instead of serving to further divide us..

My Best,

Knifefighter

12-13-2007, 07:14 AM

Dale

I have a Rickson seminar on tape where the first thing he does is take a small guy throguh a few structure tests

To be clear, all we are talking about is good body mechanics through correct structural alignment. Nothing magical and nothing to do with Chi and not some marketing gimmick either.
No nothing unique or special just a common denominator of funtional martial arts

Which is fine, until someone starts making claims like were made about that picture that a 140 lb person is comfortably holding back the pressure from a 230 lb person- which we later learn has a whole slew of caveats that comes with it. This makes it gimmicky, IMO.

chusauli

12-13-2007, 07:34 AM

Knifefighter

12-13-2007, 07:42 AM

Whether my claims are "hype", one might just go out and test it for themselves, and see if a smaller, lighter guy can do it against a bigger guy. My article from way back when told all the parameters for testing the basics. There was no hype. Judging on an accompanying picture makes no sense without the article.

Can you please post a link to the article? I would like to make a more informed opinion.

YungChun

12-13-2007, 07:44 AM

http://www.wingchunkuen.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=146&mode=&order=0&thold=0

couch

12-13-2007, 08:56 AM

The funny thing is even told, many people can't do the structure test properly. All it shows is if your WCK basics are up to par. And blatantly, it shows that many people have no WCK basics. The proof is in the trying.

People want to look, want to hear, want to read, but WCK is a physical art. How does anyone design a kinesthetic test for basics?

So labelling and judgement is in the mind. And easy for the mind to do...then people don't see what's here, but only see the "label".

Whether my claims are "hype", one might just go out and test it for themselves, and see if a smaller, lighter guy can do it against a bigger guy. My article from way back when told all the parameters for testing the basics. There was no hype. Judging on an accompanying picture makes no sense without the article.

Anyway, its a wake up call for WCK to get the basics right and even a good way to see. Let's get some real WCK feedback from the other families...what's this teaching you?

I don't feel that you are the only "family" that is testing this way. When you first learn Chi Sau, it is the seniors job to push and pull you in all directions so that your horse remains stable, centered and yet still pliable/moveable. I believe that this is even a better way to develop proper stability - using an idea in motion - instead of a static stance.

I will agree that *some* people (note I didn't say lineage or families) get lazy and either start leaning or standing up in their stance. Kung-Fu is hard work and the stance should be quite low IMO.

I remember being in my first Karate/Kung-Fu mish-mash school and having to keep a stick level across the riding horse stance. As the school leaned more towards monetary means, I saw the "traditional" Tae Kwon Do "raised" riding horse stance. Lazy!

Best,
Kenton Sefcik

Ultimatewingchun

12-13-2007, 09:17 AM

"Fighting is fighting, structure is structure. In WCK we learn structure so we can have the powerbase to fight with, as it is the source of our power. Its no different from a shot put thrower using his body to generate force to launch the shotput, or being a stable base to use a rocket launcher....

I think we shouldn't cop out and think WCK sucks and has no power and that we only have to shift or do MMA, or do some other system to launch WCK tools. Otherwise, our system sucks and WCK is just BS - just a bunch of empty close quarter hand skills put on an unstable base. I guess we should all quit and do MMA then." (Robert Chu)

***While it is true that wing chun needs a stable powerbase in order to launch strong strikes (starting with the basic vertical fist elbows-down-and-in-toward-the center punches)...and while it's true that some wing chun people don't develop this strong base with their stance work...

THIS DOESN'T CHANGE THE FACT THAT WING CHUN IS A CLOSE QUARTER MOSTLY HANDS STRIKING SYSTEM...with some low line kicking, a few arm locks, and a few sweeps.

It is what it is, Robert.

Furthermore, everything is relative. If you're over 6' tall and weighed well over 200 lbs. for many years - AND IF YOU HAVEN'T SPARRED/FOUGHT BIG boxer/kickboxer types with real skills....(and I don't know if you have or not)...but if in fact you haven't had the kind of experience with this that I have had....

then maybe you've never experienced the built-in structural problem that wing chun has in terms of reach - and particularly against a boxer's lead hook that comes off a straight lead setup (or even just by itself when the hands are held back - like a Tyson, Marciano, or Frazier)...as the wing chun man advances into close range and squares up his shoulders for the wing chun punching attack on his centerline.

And this is greatly compounded If the boxer type has a longer reach than you - and with his boxing mechanics making that reach even longer than the wing chun reach (because the mechanics of a boxer's horizontal straight punch provides a greater lead shoulder torque - and therefore longer reach) - so he can make life difficult with straight stiff leads - and then if he also couples this with a hook as you come in close ...

you can forget all about the shortest-distance-between-two-points-is-a-straight-line-and-therefore-I'll-hit-you-first-if-you-hook punch....ROUTINE.

You're going to get hit. And hard.

Which is why I have very successfully adapted some longer range horizontal fist straight leads and crosses (like a boxer) into my wing chun - for when this is combined with throwing these punches at his vertical shoulder lines...I'm now chasing territory I want to occupy (think of them as two more centerlines to be owned/controlled) - and therefore I'm NOT chasing hands.

Just part of how one can creatively combine wing chun with some boxing (but married to wing chun principles)...

and make the overall game more than just a close quarter striking system.

At your size - try sparring a 6'3"+ 220lb+ guy with some good boxing skills as I described and see what I'm talking about.

sanjuro_ronin

12-13-2007, 09:20 AM

Which is why I have very successfully adapted some longer range horizontal fist straight leads and crosses (like a boxer) into my wing chun - for when this is combined with throwing these punches at his vertical shoulder lines...I'm now chasing territory I want to occupy (think of them as two more centerlines to be owned/controlled) - and I'm NOT chasing hands.

Adaptation and improvisation are the cores of functionality.

To Quote Gunnery Sarg. Thomas Highway:
He improvised, he adapted, he overcame.

chusauli

12-13-2007, 10:09 AM

Kenton,

Thank you for your post! Yes, I agree - all lineages of WCK should do this! That is what the seniors are there for. And if you think about it, that is the goal of Chi Sao - to develop your structure. And structure (perhaps a bad term), denotes something fixed, when in fact, it is dynamic. Its like judo's randori, when someone is trying to break your balance (kuzushi), you have to dynamically fight it. Or like wrestling, where you have to "post" your limbs.

Victor,

Many thanks for your contribution. I've done my sparring/fighting against all systems one tme or another, and certainly taken my lumps and brusies and bled learning how and what WCK works against.

The idea is to make the tools work for you in what context, and of course, you will need other tools in other ranges. I never thought WCK when I was learning it as a complete art, I always thought it weak in groundfighting, grappling, throws, kicks and long distance, and even weaponry. But if we use our WCK in proper context, we at least ought to have proper tools.

Since I heard of you and John Cheng in the old days, I know that you guys saw limitations, too, over what was taught in the MY school. I knew that when we practiced the classical system, it was not the answer to everything. So we geared up at LMS' school, put on the gloves and sometimes headgear, fought full contact, with kicks and punches, and went down to the ground and tried to choke or submit or ground and pound (albeit a bit more crude by today's standards). It was all in effort of finding out what works and doesn't. Its what we all have to do today as well. I think information is better today, and basically, all we have to do is train hard.

It may have strayed from the original thread, but good chat.

John DiVirgilio when he visited the mainland from Hawaii told me a story about WSL back in the 60's, and how there were 2 factions in the Yip Man school - one group wanted only the classical forms and Chi Sao, the other led by WSL wanted more realism and fighting with gloves. Both sides had a match. Of course, WSL's guy took the other guy out. :)

But I also think, can't we have both? We should be good in WCK proper and good at fighting, and so you see my students and grandstudents entering MMA and other fighting venues so they can test it out. And they're making it work.

Hawkins told me a great story about when he was training in Goju Ryu how some elders in WCK (won't mention and names :o) complained he was learning that Japanese stuff (remember they grew up after the War), so he discussed some kicks, and he proceeded to kick one of the seniors in the nuts, and down he went. I had to LOL!

So I think if it knocks you down, and it works, great! That's why I am always an advocate of function over form.

Best regards,

chusauli

12-13-2007, 11:44 AM

Knifefighter

12-13-2007, 12:58 PM

Hi guys,

Going back on topic, what kind of push ups do you do in class?

I have my students do:

Medicine ball pushups, travelling, staggered, and close grip
Renegade rows with KB's
Feet Elevated
Wide, Regular, Narrow and staggered
Po Pai Push Ups (4 variations)
Triangle pushups
Knuckle, Wrist, Fingertip pushups
"Perfect Pushups" handles, Standard Elevated pushups
Jackknife on Swiss ball and push ups
Burpees and Mountclimbers
Manmakers

Any others you do in class? They provide great variation and fun and are also great for core strength.

Best regards,

My feeling is that any supplemental exercises done in class should only be for a brief warm-up. Conditioning should be built into the actual training if the system if worth two cents- supplemental stuff is most effectively done out outside. Not to mention the fact that most MA instructors, while they may be experts in their particular systems, are clueless about conditioning and have no business including conditioning workouts as part of the MA training. Kind of like going to a fitness trainer who has no training in WC, but decides he is going to teach you WC as part of your fitness regime.

Hendrik

12-13-2007, 02:21 PM

Conditioning should be built into the actual training if the system if worth two cents- supplemental stuff is most effectively done out outside.

Are you a WCner?

Care to share with us what do you do in WCK for conditioning which is build into the actual training?

Knifefighter

12-13-2007, 02:49 PM

Are you a WCner?

Care to share with us what do you do in WCK for conditioning which is build into the actual training?

That's one of the reasons I prefer BJJ, wrestling, boxing and MT. The conditioning is built in. It's very hard to be an out of shape BJJ practitioner or wrestler.

It shouldn't be too hard to build conditioning into WC, however. It would go under the heading of functionalizing WC. Of course then it would be more like the above mentioned styles and all the purists would be crying that it wasn't WC.

Hendrik

12-13-2007, 02:57 PM

That's one of the reasons I prefer BJJ, wrestling, boxing and MT. The conditioning is built in. It's very hard to be an out of shape BJJ practitioner or wrestler.

It shouldn't be too hard to build conditioning into WC, however.

It would go under the heading of functionalizing WC.

Of course then it would be more like the above mentioned styles and all the purists would be crying that it wasn't WC.

Thanks for sharing.

from you post, So you are not a WCner right?

In your BJJ , MT ... point of view what is conditioning?

and what is WCK's conditioning ougth to be?

chusauli

12-13-2007, 04:56 PM

Basic drills like Tui Ma, Chi Sao, Ngaat Yiu, plus various training on air shield, mitts, and supplemental drills for fight training can condition the WCK athlete. Of course, strength training is supplemental and can be done with weapons and weights, vests, plyometrics, jumping rope, running, medicine ball, etc.

When you do Chi Sao, a lot of body weight can be used, particularly with the structure methods, as this serves to strengthen the entire body.

Ngaat Yiu is basic leverage training for the horse and structure.

Tui Ma drills the horse for root, mobility and relative positioning.

They can all serve for weight and cardio training. Of course, one can tailor to the individual's needs.

Dale does make a good point that most MA teachers know very little about strength and conditioning, unless they've really studied it. What other benefits would personal training or S&C Coach provide?

The way I look at it, WCK does need some modernization. Don't trow the baby out with the bathwater, but if you want to train as a fighter, you have to have the mindset and train like one.

couch

12-13-2007, 05:27 PM

That's one of the reasons I prefer BJJ, wrestling, boxing and MT. The conditioning is built in. It's very hard to be an out of shape BJJ practitioner or wrestler.

Skipping, jumping jacks, running stairs, wind sprints, burpies, speed-bag, sit-ups,etc are all part of a boxing class...which also includes:

partner drills, bag drills, double-ended bag, weighted jab/cross, pad work, sparring, etc.

I think it's great if you can take a couple of hours and get it ALL done!

To each their own,
Kenton Sefcik

Hendrik

12-13-2007, 06:48 PM

In Yik Kam lineage, one of the most important and basic conditioning is --- Spine.

Thus, it was said in the SLT Kuen Kuit, the fifth stanza, --- Accumulate the qi in the Dan Dien, Du medirian sink.

Du medirian is Spine in the physical sense.

So, deep breathing and Spine are pointed out in this fifth stanza.

Without a deep breathing / oxigen in take and a strong healty spine / strong elastic pila for the physical/structure one doesnt have much, IMHO.

with a strong healty spine and deep oxigen in take the internal organs will be healty... There the SLT cultivate both external and internal organs.. but these days we all so concern about arms and legs and muscles.... do we look into the internal organs?

if the internal organs are not healty and strong, sure one can keep doing excecise to push the heart to the maximum heart beat but it is going to do more damange and subject to fast aging.

Thus, the ancient CMA training start with internal and train outward, and external training is for aids the internal training, instead of ignoring the internal organs and go full blast on the external.

a different paradigm and logic.

according to the ancient chinese martial art training paradigm, those who has chronics disease such as heart problem, kidney problem, diabetes, asmah.... etc MUST NOT do to drain the body qi drastically or today's drastic sports but using the Six healing breath or equivalent to "rebult" the internal organs before one a could do something more drastic.

For the ancient Chinese Martial art is certainly not a competative spot and many view today. People might rather to spend 1 hours a day to hitting bags, jumping.... but how many is willing to spend 1 hour a day doing nothing but streching and conditioning their spine where it is not exciting or attractive at all?

Time has changed, and if you are interested in doing research into what type of conditioning SLT of WCK has --- look into the spine and breathing.

Just some thoughts to share.

sanjuro_ronin

12-14-2007, 05:43 AM

That's one of the reasons I prefer BJJ, wrestling, boxing and MT. The conditioning is built in. It's very hard to be an out of shape BJJ practitioner or wrestler.

That would be style specific conditoning though, great conditioning yes, but style specific.
Much like the great conditioning one gets by swimming and wil still gas in a BJJ class or doing some serious bag work.

sanjuro_ronin

12-14-2007, 05:46 AM

Skipping, jumping jacks, running stairs, wind sprints, burpies, speed-bag, sit-ups,etc are all part of a boxing class...which also includes:

partner drills, bag drills, double-ended bag, weighted jab/cross, pad work, sparring, etc.

I think it's great if you can take a couple of hours and get it ALL done!

To each their own,
Kenton Sefcik

The skipping and jumping jacks and all that are part of the warm-ups, the bag work and pad work can be either skill training or sport specfic conditioning.
You still need to supplement your strength building outside of class though.
Thougg I don't recall ever having a boxing "class"...

Ultimatewingchun

12-14-2007, 06:40 AM

"Just going through the forms back to back, no breaks from slt to BJD is a good workout.

In a way each form is more energetic and demanding then the last." (Nick)

***THAT'S RIGHT.

Knifefighter

12-14-2007, 01:05 PM

What other benefits would personal training or S&C Coach provide?

The job of a strength and conditioning specialist is to analyze specific situations and design conditioning programs based on exercise science that allow for maximum conditioning while minimizing injury potential.

Some of the more important considerations are:
Energy systems needing to be trained (i.e glycolytic vs. oxidative).
Training that is specific to the desired goals.
Training periodization.
Mode, duration, intensity, frequency.
Rehab and prehab training.
Progression.

chusauli

12-20-2007, 09:55 AM

So what kind of warm up exercises and strength conditioning exercises do you guys do in your WCK class?

anerlich

12-20-2007, 02:41 PM

IMO the Parisi warmup per Martin Rooney / Team Renzo Gracie is one of the best I've seen.

JPinAZ

12-20-2007, 04:11 PM

The system I train has many forms that are great for warmup. Our Bai Jong Baat Bo Jin form is a full body-method drill that involves footwork and hand/body methods in all directions. Done 3 times at a good speed gets things warmed up quick. A good side effect is improved body mechanics for targeting and covering your gates as one moves :)

We also have our Kuen Jong Dip Gwat Gung (SLT) form that works to strengthen the muscles, tendons, bones, etc. It also works on finger, wrist and elbow energies. A few sets of this form can get thigs warmed up fast as well. It also is great for developing a more 'fighter' mindset IMO.

Another great benifit for both these drills is that while getting warmed up, you are also working on the body methods and energies that will directly relate to fighting with a WC identity.

stricker

12-20-2007, 05:59 PM

That's one of the reasons I prefer BJJ, wrestling, boxing and MT. The conditioning is built in. It's very hard to be an out of shape BJJ practitioner or wrestler.the best training i've done for every aspect of martial arts ability is combining functional drills/scenario sparring type training, with conditioning. we do circuits like 1 min mount escape, 1 min pummelling, 1 min bagwork, 1 min sprawls, etc all mixed up, or thai padwork/focus mitts etc 5x5min rounds.

performing an action when you're ****ed i think helps you to do the action more efficiently and better under pressure... also the conditioning is specific... conditioning and skill work brought together perfectly...

Just going through the forms back to back, no breaks from slt to BJD is a good workouthmmm, not convinced, but good workout is relative ;)

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=zAQy-WHIYhwLOL, nick, my back garden is just like val's :D I got gymnastic rings and a heavy bag hanging from my scaffolding as well as resistance bands ;)

aaron baum

12-21-2007, 01:58 AM

"the best training i've done for every aspect of martial arts ability is combining functional drills/scenario sparring type training, with conditioning. we do circuits like 1 min mount escape, 1 min pummelling, 1 min bagwork, 1 min sprawls, etc all mixed up, or thai padwork/focus mitts etc 5x5min rounds"

"The job of a strength and conditioning specialist is to analyze specific situations and design conditioning programs based on exercise science that allow for maximum conditioning while minimizing injury potential"

two of the best quotes i have yet to read on here...i couldnt agree more...few people realise that if you do this (and it really is one of the hardest yet sensible training methodologies to follow) your martial level will improve quicker than you can imagine...round training and sprawling take you to places your mind doesnt like but oh what fun...nice one lads...

best

aaron

reneritchie

12-21-2007, 07:13 PM

King of the Hill can be a great drill, applied to almost any two-person martial art or technical situation.

One person in the middle has to do something specific. Everyone else lined up to take a turn, one after the other. If the person in the middle succeeds at the task, they stay. If they mess up, the person they're currently facing takes their place and they (the original person in the center) goes to the end of the line.

Getting a touch in on Chi Sao, first one to uproot the other, first one to lose balance during leg work, takedown/prevention, pinning/pin escaping, whatever.

The quasi competitive nature can get the adrenalin dumping putting the cardio in stress mode :)

aaron baum

12-22-2007, 09:49 AM

hi rene

upping the stress levels in a fun way like you say is a great to way to train, slightly competitive but working technique and conditioning at the same time...we play a game in the clinch, you earn a point for lifting both feet of the opponent off the floor (ie a hip sweep etc), throwing them, getting in sub position (ie chin na to guillotine or thai clinch etc), taking their back (ie duck under to standing seatbelt etc) or taking their structure say via a sagging body lock from double underhooks...the first to 5 or 10 points wins....sounds easy but you can work for 10 15 mins sometimes and still be at 1-0...nightmare but all good...or you can do it like you said and have the winner stay in until someone reaches a similar score...

this distance doesnt seem to be worked much by some wc people....when you have this real close quarter skill and conditioning it gives you a much more dynamic and strong chi sao i feel...

best

aaron