Ground Proofing DVD

[Three Harmonies]

Tim Cartmell's latest DVD project is finally available; Ground Proofing. An excellent DVD I just watched covering all the basics of real world self defense ground survival for non-grapplers/ground fighters. The DVD is geard towards those who do not know any ground skills, nor train it. Basic falling; protection; basic escapes from certain positions (mount, side control, scarf hold etc.); and a ton of other info can be found on the DVD.
Tim has stated that it is his intention to produce something that anyone can learn from and take away basic skills in order to protect themselves when they get thrown to the ground, trip or fall, or however they may end on the ground in an actual fight. No fancy submissions here, just plain simple basics of survival. I HIGHLY recommend this DVD to any and folks who THINK they will NEVER get taken down and have to fight on the ground! I also recommend this DVD for coaches of all arts as an organized syllabus on how to teach ground fighting to non-grapplers that may come to their schools, but don't want to train BJJ/Sambo/Judo.
Here is a teaser http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N-S37qLR6k
The DVD should be up on Tim's site within the week www.shenwu.com

Cheers, and enjoy
Jake B.

[rogue]

Where are the silk PJs? I hope you know you'll never learn as much training like in the video as you would from forms.

[Three Harmonies]

Seems to be the consensus on KFO!:cool:

[Chosen-frozen]

If you`re interested in that sort of thing take a look at "Floor fighting " by Marc MacYoung. There`s a book and a companion DVD at paladin press. It`s not really grappling focused. It`s more how to fall and get back on your feet asap. How to get to cover when you`re down, or how to keep someone from kicking in your ribs or head when you trip or get knocked down.

For the most part nobody but cops or bouncers try to Submit anyone in a fight. Most people either kick you while they stand or mount you and try to use your head to make big holes in the ground.

[lkfmdc]

looks like anotehr good product from Tim

[Three Harmonies]

Thanks David!

Chosen-
This has nothing to do with grappling on the ground. Has to do more with protecting yourself and getting to your feet! How to escape basic holds and pins. I have seen the stuff by Macyoung.....it is ok, but some of it will get your teeth smashed. I get the feeling he knows little about the ground!
Jake :cool:

[lkfmdc]

a little jiu jitsu can go a long way for a stand up fighter (see Knifefighter's comments about the turtle on the MMA forum). Ironically, my newest DVD has some similar stuff (I guess great minds think alike?)

Tim has trained in Taiwan with top masters and fought Lei Tai there, he is also a BJJ black belt. I'd really take his experience over say, a person who claims to be a bouncer and has no verifiable training?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Tim has the goods, no gray area there.

[MasterKiller]

So he advocates slapping out to breakfall in a real fight when people can follow up to stomp you?

For a teaser about how to get up and protect yourself, you would think he would show how to get up and protect yourself...i mean, if that's what DVD is supposed to show. Watching that it looks like a DVD for wrestling takedowns.

[sanjuro_ronin]

So he advocates slapping out to breakfall in a real fight when people can follow up to stomp you?

He does taiji too, the pagan !!
:D

[lkfmdc]

He does taiji too, the pagan !!
:D

he was't wearing silk PJ's, so he couldn't possibly be doing tai chi (note CORRECT spelling if you are a white guy)

[sanjuro_ronin]

So he advocates slapping out to breakfall in a real fight when people can follow up to stomp you?

For a teaser about how to get up and protect yourself, you would think he would show how to get up and protect yourself...i mean, if that's what DVD is supposed to show. Watching that it looks like a DVD for wrestling takedowns.

You didn't see the hidden applications ??
What kind of TCMA are you ??
:D

[sanjuro_ronin]

he was't wearing silk PJ's, so he couldn't possibly be doing tai chi (note CORRECT spelling if you are a white guy)

I heard he wears silk boxers, good enough ?

[MasterKiller]

You didn't see the hidden applications ??
What kind of TCMA are you ??
:D

The bad kind that likes applications to be spoon-fed.

[Knifefighter]

So he advocates slapping out to breakfall in a real fight when people can follow up to stomp you?

For a teaser about how to get up and protect yourself, you would think he would show how to get up and protect yourself...i mean, if that's what DVD is supposed to show. Watching that it looks like a DVD for wrestling takedowns.

Didn't see a lot of slapping out to breakfall.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The bad kind that likes applications to be spoon-fed.

Heathen.
:D

[Three Harmonies]

I will post the same response to the general ignorance of this board, that I did on EF:


I really have little interest in explaining the need for basic knowledge of ground skills on this board anymore. Many of you are convinced you will never get taken down, or fall down, or trip, or (heaven forbid rolleyes.gif ) get hit and knocked down etc. so what is the use in trying to convince you of the importance of needing to know how to get up without getting your ****ing teeth smashed in? Or if someone has mounted you and is pounding your skull into the ground with his elbow? Or if you get tackled from behind and knocked to the ground (would like to hear what the wiseguys who claim it is impossible to take them down have to say about that scenario :eek::rolleyes: )?
Look, plain and simple.....there are a variety of ways one could end up on the ground in a confrontation, including being pulled down with a whatever technique. Tim is NOT addressing techniques (he rarely does), he is conveying PRINCIPLES to save your ass from being handed to you! This is NOT an encyclopedia of submissions in various positions! This DVD is of NO USE to the experienced grappler, they already know what to do! This DVD is geared for all the dip****s out there on forums like this one who think they CANNOT, WILL NOT, WON'T end up on the ground in a fight! These are basic principles anyone can use to better understand how to protect oneself on the ground, and get to their feet as quickly as possible! No one (even the legendary Rickson Gracie) WANTS to take a street fight to the ground! Thats insane! But everyone needs to know what to do IF they do end up there.
Why is it I never hear some of you experts saying things like "I don't need to train knife defense, because no one would EVER pull a knife on me?"

Hope this clarifies some things. Would the people who want to **** talk BJJ and ground fighting kindly start a thread elsewhere and mentally masturbate on how good there root is? :rolleyes: Thanks! :cool:

Jake

[Three Harmonies]

Oh, and excellent point Mr. Ross!

[MasterKiller]

Didn't see a lot of slapping out to breakfall.

0;34, 0:49, 1:05, 1:37, 1:44, 1:53, 1:58....

not to mention lots of people reaching out for the ground.

I've heard lots of great things about Tim and his method, but the teaser was disappointing if it's supposed to convince me to buy a DVD on how to keep my teeth from getting kicked in on the str33t.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I will post the same response to the general ignorance of this board, that I did on EF:


I really have little interest in explaining the need for basic knowledge of ground skills on this board anymore. Many of you are convinced you will never get taken down, or fall down, or trip, or (heaven forbid rolleyes.gif ) get hit and knocked down etc. so what is the use in trying to convince you of the importance of needing to know how to get up without getting your ****ing teeth smashed in? Or if someone has mounted you and is pounding your skull into the ground with his elbow? Or if you get tackled from behind and knocked to the ground (would like to hear what the wiseguys who claim it is impossible to take them down have to say about that scenario :eek::rolleyes: )?
Look, plain and simple.....there are a variety of ways one could end up on the ground in a confrontation, including being pulled down with a whatever technique. Tim is NOT addressing techniques (he rarely does), he is conveying PRINCIPLES to save your ass from being handed to you! This is NOT an encyclopedia of submissions in various positions! This DVD is of NO USE to the experienced grappler, they already know what to do! This DVD is geared for all the dip****s out there on forums like this one who think they CANNOT, WILL NOT, WON'T end up on the ground in a fight! These are basic principles anyone can use to better understand how to protect oneself on the ground, and get to their feet as quickly as possible! No one (even the legendary Rickson Gracie) WANTS to take a street fight to the ground! Thats insane! But everyone needs to know what to do IF they do end up there.
Why is it I never hear some of you experts saying things like "I don't need to train knife defense, because no one would EVER pull a knife on me?"

Hope this clarifies some things. Would the people who want to **** talk BJJ and ground fighting kindly start a thread elsewhere and mentally masturbate on how good there root is? :rolleyes: Thanks! :cool:

Jake

Where did this come from ??

[Three Harmonies]

From me.
Master-
Don't know what to tell you. If you want the DVD buy it. If not, don't. No one really cares to be honest.
Jake :cool:

[MasterKiller]

Master-
Don't know what to tell you. If you want the DVD buy it. If not, don't. No one really cares to be honest.
Jake :cool: If you pimp a DVD, you should at least be able to answer some basic questions about it without getting your panties in a bunch.

[Three Harmonies]

Panties aren't bunched. I care not to get in petty arguments with silly people about how to slap out. Yes they slap out. Yes it will hurt on the pavement, but most sensible people think it is safer than getting your head bashed in with a throw. Tim and his students throw down EVERY class, EVERY day! I think they know how to fall bro.
So what do you want me to say? I have no interest in arguing with people who are "experts" on KFO. I am promoting my teachers DVD on this thread. If you wish to argue validity of techniques, start your own thread.

Jake :cool:

[lkfmdc]

In the interest of fighting flames, and perhaps because we can produce a productive conversation....

As a member of the San Da Training Systesm instructor's network and a blue belt in BJJ, I don't think MK believes he can't be taken down nor that he has no need for ground work.

As I am sure Tim knows, there is a debate in CMA cirlces about "slap" vs. "curl up" in falling

I think a more constructive approach would be to inquire if Tim teaches slaps or "curl up" OR perhaps he has students with Judo and Hapkido backgrounds who still have the habit?

I have a student who did a school of shuai jiao where they curl up differently and he still does it that way a lot... even though it is NOT how I teach it

[sanjuro_ronin]

From me.
Master-
Don't know what to tell you. If you want the DVD buy it. If not, don't. No one really cares to be honest.
Jake :cool:

I think the majority of "silk jammies and pagan" comments were jokes, not in regards to Tim, but teasing MK.
I have Tim's stand up grappling DVD and enjoy his clips on youtube and this may be a nice dvd to have for my collection.
I think you should be less hostile over posts that are in good nature, I mean, how do you take a post that calls someone a heathen seriously? I know I don't.

Great to stick up for your teacher, but being overly defensive makes one wonder why you would be that way.

[Ben Gash]

Not to mention that there are very few people here who believe that they can never be taken down, and those that do aren't generally taken that seriously.
You don't really sell stuff by abusing potential customers.:rolleyes:

[Three Harmonies]

Do you guys read half of the BS posts on KFO????? Everytime there is a grappling based thread at least half a dozen people start piping up about how they would never end up on the ground etc. etc. Sorry if I ruffled delicate feathers here on KFO, but for Christ sake these forums are the only place where people even mention some of these silly ideas.
As for the clowning around..... why not save it for another thread then, and no one will misunderstand.
Tim does not need sticking up for. He can take care of himself.
Yes Tim teaches to slap out (ala Japanese style). I cannot speak for the experience of all the people in his videos.


Jake :cool:

[lkfmdc]

Yes Tim teaches to slap out (ala Japanese style).



Jake,
That right there answered MK's question....

As for us clowning around, we all do it here, I wouldnt' take it hard. I just put Gene on a stripper's pole in front of Shaolin temple :p It's just the "flavor" here (plus it deflates the trolls)

Also, while other thread may be filled with the "death touch" crowd, this one wasn't so it's best to deal with the thread in question and not just cut a paste a generic answer

Best wishes

[Three Harmonies]

Just trying to avoid the typcial BS that is found here is all. Sorry if I came across too strongly to some, I am just really, REALLY, tired and frustrated with many of the TMA crowd that continue to hold steadfast in the BS delusions that they need no ground game. My apologies for jumping the gun guys, hope you can forgive and forget.
Jake :cool:

[sanjuro_ronin]

Just trying to avoid the typcial BS that is found here is all. Sorry if I came across too strongly to some, I am just really, REALLY, tired and frustrated with many of the TMA crowd that continue to hold steadfast in the BS delusions that they need no ground game. My apologies for jumping the gun guys, hope you can forgive and forget.
Jake :cool:

No problem, we feel your pain !
:D

By the way, congrats on training with one of the few people that has understood how perfect a fit BJJ is with CMA.

[Mas Judt]

Not a big fan of slapping the ground - BUT - having both Judo & Shuai Chiao in my blood, I can offer up a few things:

1.) Slapping concrete *most of the time* does not hurt as bad as you would think. (Depends on scale of the fall - have an old buddy with a pin in his arm due to slapping during a bike accident.)

2.) Slapping can and does do something psychologically that makes a hard throw more endurable.

3.) But this illusion gets shattered when you get thrown by some crazy mofo like Manny Rodriguez who once threw me so hard I didn't know where I was for about three minutes.

Curling compresses and holds the organs in place. That big bag of water called your body endures less of a shock wave if you fall the Shuai Chiao way. It IS a better way, and more adaptable to weird throws. The one required change is training to roll out of the fall. A lot of SC teachers insist you just *stay* there. It looks good, but not a god idea IMO.

I've always thought the GTG argument stupid. But just about everything people said won't happen to them could and did in my experience. Applies to everybody, even BJJ types. Your ai priori assumptions, strategies and tactics will by default create blind spots. Some are just bigger than others.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I stopped slapping the ground when my IP started to manifest itself, all the aftershocks were getting people ****ed !

[Mas Judt]

Shamed by you English? Can't understand a word you say...

[Oso]

I've been trying to add the shuai chiao method but still slap as a matter of habit.

MJ, you talking about rolling after the 'curl' or instead of?

David Lin kept laughing at me this past summer every time I slapped at his seminar:o:p:D

[lkfmdc]

I am just really, REALLY, tired and frustrated with many of the TMA crowd that continue to hold steadfast in the BS delusions that they need no ground game.



(sarcasm)

I have no idea at all what you are talking about

(/sarcasm)

:D

[Knifefighter]

0;34, 0:49, 1:05, 1:37, 1:44, 1:53, 1:58....

not to mention lots of people reaching out for the ground.

I've heard lots of great things about Tim and his method, but the teaser was disappointing if it's supposed to convince me to buy a DVD on how to keep my teeth from getting kicked in on the str33t.


Please post a clip of your better method.

[lkfmdc]

Please post a clip of your better method.

oh, here we go again! :D

I have to film it and put it up, but basicly the way we do it is similar to what BJJ people call "shrimping" (we do NOT turn our back).... nor do we slap

I have my reasons why I do things my way, others have their reasons

KF, get the DVD's?

[Knifefighter]

oh, here we go again! :D

I have to film it and put it up, but basicly the way we do it is similar to what BJJ people call "shrimping" (we do NOT turn our back).... nor do we slap

I have my reasons why I do things my way, others have their reasons

KF, get the DVD's?

Won't be in the office till tonight. I'll check then.

As far as what as the best method is for falling on hard surfaces, that would probably be the way Parkour has developed it. It actually is a reaching out and then collapsing the arm to increase the shock absorption.

And yes, if you are going to disparage one method, you should post a clip of you or someone else doing it better.

[MasterKiller]

The wrestling coach I train with, the Level 3 combatives instructors I trained with, and the SC guys all fall pretty much the same way, with elbows and chin tucked.

[lkfmdc]

if you are going to disparage one method, you should post a clip of you or someone else doing it better.

I wouldn't necessarily call it "disparaging" as much as discussiong different methods. Judo and Hapkido slap. Most Shuai Jiao curl and roll. We curl and shrimp I guess? What we do is actually similar to what some sambo people do. The Parkour method sounds like the di tang and dog boxing method actually, intersting indeed

I need to put some more basic stuff up, too much nasty fighting stuff LOL :D

I'll tease you with this for now

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDBW6k3BTYA

[Lucas]

Won't be in the office till tonight. I'll check then.

As far as what as the best method is for falling on hard surfaces, that would probably be the way Parkour has developed it. It actually is a reaching out and then collapsing the arm to increase the shock absorption.

And yes, if you are going to disparage one method, you should post a clip of you or someone else doing it better.

Sounds like what my body eventually taught me to do after years of skate boarding.

time after time being thrown at the concrete at high speed and with good force, i found the best way for me to deal with that was by extending my arm (depending on angle of course) to meet the ground half way, and then "spring" my arm in and try to go into a roll, getting to my feet as fast as possible. Never broke a bone either. Cant tell you how many of my buds cant say the same though.

But, at least in that society, you dont really go over "falling methods" everyone just kind of develops their own.

We used to have little competitions between our friends, we would haul ass down a hill and the first to bail lost. no one ever made it to the bottom without slowing down or bailing.

[Knifefighter]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Kh8NeG9wf8

[cjurakpt]

I remember learning "Dave's way" to fall after having done more of the traditional Jappo Jiu Jits stuff w/slap outs; the thing I liked about it was that it alowed me to maintain a more cohesive structure on the ground; in fact, it was actually very similar to how I learned to hit the ground as a soccer goalie, and that approach is pretty functional - you need to a) protect yourself from the impact; b) protect yourself from being kicked while on the ground; c) be able to get back up very quickly: this therefore demonstrates it is not necessary to slap out to achieve any of these (not that I am saying slapping out is bad - just different)

[lkfmdc]

Tim Cartmell's latest DVD project is finally available; Ground Proofing. An excellent DVD I just watched covering all the basics of real world self defense ground survival for non-grapplers/ground fighters. The DVD is geard towards those who do not know any ground skills, nor train it. Basic falling; protection; basic escapes from certain positions (mount, side control, scarf hold etc.); and a ton of other info can be found on the DVD.
Tim has stated that it is his intention to produce something that anyone can learn from and take away basic skills in order to protect themselves when they get thrown to the ground, trip or fall, or however they may end on the ground in an actual fight. No fancy submissions here, just plain simple basics of survival. I HIGHLY recommend this DVD to any and folks who THINK they will NEVER get taken down and have to fight on the ground! I also recommend this DVD for coaches of all arts as an organized syllabus on how to teach ground fighting to non-grapplers that may come to their schools, but don't want to train BJJ/Sambo/Judo.
Here is a teaser http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N-S37qLR6k
The DVD should be up on Tim's site within the week www.shenwu.com

[Three Harmonies]

Thanks Mr. Ross. (BTW showed Tim one of your clinch DVD's this weekend, and he was happy with the material :D)


Yes, please guys start a different thread to ***** and argue about the proper way to fall :rolleyes:. In the end I could care less because I have been taught both ways. Like Oso said when I get thrown hard, or surprised I slap out because that is the first way I learned. I teach my guys the SC method, but in the end what ****ing difference does it make as long as your head is protedted??????? I can fight on with a banged up arm, or even a broken arm! I cannot do a **** thing when I have my head crushed in on the pavement, knocked out, ****ing myself! So what good does it do arguing about an arm??? Just protect the vitals.

Mas-
Not quite the same when someone Mannies size is tossing you;) At 300+ anyone can do damage regardless of how you slap! How is he BTW? Last I heard he was ill. You can PM or email if you wish.

Jake
three_harmonies@hotmail.com

[lkfmdc]

Tim has my respect so it's nice to hear he found something of use on one of my DVD's....

I wouldn't get to worked up over discussions here, and I think for the most part what has been discussed has been productive. more than one way to fall (PS MY WAY IS BETTER :p joking)

[Yum Cha]

Well, another nice tidbit. My natural fall is curl and roll, but the guys I roll with are telling me to slap, and I've been having trouble getting the instinct. One less thing to worry about.

Just for the record, not a single Traditional guy has piped up to slag this product or the DVD. Thanks for the heads up 3H. From the YouTube clip linked earlier, I see a lot of crossover skills. I've trained several of those takedowns in TCMA.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the DVD is probably the "What's Next" advice?

[Three Harmonies]

Yum
Like I stated earlier I apologize if I jumped the gun.

All of Tim's stand up comes from TCMA of Bagua, Taiji, and Xing Yi. So it should look familiar!

Jake

[Mas Judt]

Jake,
Well, he was only in the mid-200's when I knew him. Honestly, I haven't crossed paths with that guy in over a decade. He was my 'training partner' when I started in Shuai Chiao. Holy cr@p I barely survived the experience. Especially when followed by a Chu Gar beating. But he was a brilliant coach, and I credit him for fixing a lot of stuff.

[Three Harmonies]

Mannie is a great guy, just has some issues and what not. You are dating yourself if you knew him back in the 200#'s!;):D With whom were you two training Shuai under?
Jake :cool:

[stricker]

systema also has a different method of falling and hitting the ground safely. they train almost exclusively on hard floors never with mats (but then i also think they don't experience ippons or suplexes etc). think there's some good clips of that on youtube.

someone should start another thread on how to fall on concrete...

another interesting idea is setting up submissions on the way down...

[lkfmdc]

they train almost exclusively on hard floors never with mats



This is, in my professional opinion, RETARDED :rolleyes:

training isn't a street fight, you want your students to train hard and train often and experience stuff wihout getting seriously hurt.

This is fake bravado, tough guy nonsense

[stricker]

also i've got tim cartmells book on throws, not really got into the meat of it (ie working through stuff with partner) but the principles and ideas etc are great. also seen his standing grappling dvd, that's very good as well. just simple stuff you can pick up almost immediately but will make a difference to your fighting ability.

also been to his class, was injured at the time so didnt get to join in :( they looked smoooth on the ground, nice guy, good learning environment.

anyway, dont think i'll pick up this new dvd (i dont fit into the target audience as i grapple and got better dvds to be spending my little $$ on) but i'd like to see it, if its anything like the first i bet i'd have some aha moments watching it :)

[stricker]

This is, in my professional opinion, RETARDED :rolleyes:

training isn't a street fight, you want your students to train hard and train often and experience stuff wihout getting seriously hurt.

This is fake bravado, tough guy nonsense
chill dude,

you obviously have no idea what systema guys do!

they DONT slam each other on the ground etc!!!

it starts off lying down literally playing roly-poly rolling on the ground, they are VERY slow and progressive... builds up to breakfalls and rolling breakfalls, then jumping into them...

check out :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnrBSqzJMDI

[Three Harmonies]

I have to agree with Ross here. I have a friend up here who has permanently ****ed his back up from doing stupid Systema falls on concrete and objects etc. No one slammed him, just doing simple breakfalls he herniated disks, pinched nerves etc. AND he did it RIGHT (at least how the instructor taught him:eek::o).
Jake

[lkfmdc]

chill dude,

you obviously have no idea what systema guys do!



I know quite a lot about what systema guys do, plus I have about 20 years of teaching experience....

having people do anyting on unprotected concrete shows a disregard for student safety and also a fundamental appreciation of proper training methods...

You do realize systema is a dot in an ocean of sambo in Russia, right?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Ah systema.....

what can one say other than:
Only 3 things came out of Russia that where worthwhile:
Sambo
Vodka
and...


Her:

[stricker]

I know quite a lot about what systema guys do, plus I have about 20 years of teaching experience....

having people do anyting on unprotected concrete shows a disregard for student safety and also a fundamental appreciation of proper training methods...

You do realize systema is a dot in an ocean of sambo in Russia, right?well, they have their method just as you have yours. i think mikhail and vlad might have been teaching for a while too...

i dont know what their injury rates are compared to judo or CMA guys. might be interesting to compare injury rates for a 'real' fall for the different methods, then compare injury rates during training.

oh and yeah, i know systema is quite an obscure martial art, and sambo is popular in russia. dont know what relevance that has?

but anyway, dont tell me, tell mikhail or vlad. i think rob poyton who's a systema teacher and did the youtube clip sometimes posts on this forum?

out of interest what are your training methods for learning to take a fall on a hard surface?

[lkfmdc]

oh and yeah, i know systema is quite an obscure martial art, and sambo is popular in russia. dont know what relevance that has?



The relevance is quite simple, systema is the equivalent of two guys in a garage compared to all the pro Muay Thai fghters in Thailand

Sambo has consistently produced high quality grapplers and FIGHTERS

Despite what systema tells you, in the Soviet Union the method of choice for military, police, etc was SAMBO

Sambo trains with mats so you can learn to fall, learn to throw, actually be thrown, and KEEP DOING IT

[stricker]

The relevance is quite simple, systema is the equivalent of two guys in a garage compared to all the pro Muay Thai fghters in Thailand

Sambo has consistently produced high quality grapplers and FIGHTERS

Despite what systema tells you, in the Soviet Union the method of choice for military, police, etc was SAMBO

Sambo trains with mats so you can learn to fall, learn to throw, actually be thrown, and KEEP DOING ITsure i know sambo's good, i train with a few :)

systema say the elite special ops used systema, but i dont care about that myself, or as a pro for sambo... wt is taught to german spec ops, boxing in the british army, etc...doesnt mean much either way... argumentum ad populum or argumentum or ad verecundiam ...

i know that systema people would disagree with you and i know that health is a big part of their system.

anyway as for what i think:
a) they (systema people) know something about falling. its different to other approaches, so worth examining whats in common and whats different.
b) if you care about falling on hard surfaces, it might be worth experimenting occasionally on hard surfaces, making sure to be careful and work progressively. it's like sparring, most of it should be done with boxing gloves, but every once in a while it's good to use little mma gloves, or fight.

i also think knifefighters suggestion of looking at what parkour people do is a really good idea!

ps i think the two guys in the garage might have developed something special ;) have you met or trained with any good systema people?

[lkfmdc]

systema say the elite special ops used systema,



these are the same people who sell a DVD on using Psychic powers on an attacker...

systema has a very cult like mentality, so to argue about it is a waste of time, again I will suggest that the people who actually can demonstrate skills all use mats to learn to grapple (BJJ, Sambo, Judo, Wrestling)

[Mas Judt]

Jake,
Muph and I trained under Dr. Brian Wu starting in the early 80's.

I stayed with Dr. Wu for about 13-14 years. Still friends, but I moved away.

Murph certainly has his issues, but he is also a brilliant coach. I've always had a strong personality, so I never got pulled into any of the craziness or unusual lifestyle stuff.

300lbs eh? That's a shame. He should have kept training, he would be a one of the greats.

[stricker]

these are the same people who sell a DVD on using Psychic powers on an attacker...

systema has a very cult like mentality, so to argue about it is a waste of time, again I will suggest that the people who actually can demonstrate skills all use mats to learn to grapple (BJJ, Sambo, Judo, Wrestling)

dude dont get me wrong i'm the skeptic all the way :) i see the cult mentality, the combat pants, how the demos work etc... but, i still see something in there worth having, a jewel in the dirt if you will. its like 10% of what i do. i'm 90% an mma-er, train at an mma fight gym, roll with judoka, bjjers, samboists, do muay thai and boxing training...

off to training now :)

[Three Harmonies]

Mas
Yeah, he started to have some health and personal issues and that affected his weight obviously. I completely concur he is a great coach. He had a falling out with my first CMA teacher way before I was around, but my teacher (at the time) suggested I go train with him when he was in town (Albuquerque), and not tell him where I came from. Mannie was a great teacher, and shared his art unbiasedly. I could do without him constantly trying to get me to train with him fulltime (Southern Mantis was not my thing), and the Church hyms being sung during training took some getting used to. But the quality of material was top notch.
I lost touch with him a few years back. I heard he was in pretty bad shape health wise, but never heard anything more. I wish him the best. Nice cat!
Jake :cool:

[Oso]

this Manny guy, obviously a huge guy who taught SPM???

i went to a 2 day seminar back in 96-97 here in NC that was taught by a very large guy of Hispanic descent...tough as hell teacher...wonder if the same guy.

[Mas Judt]

Could be him. Great fighter, great coach, but gets very religious on stuff and the um, exhibits behaviors VERY contrary to that same religion.

He was a known character, but very well as a martial artist by just about everyone.

[Oso]

must be him, I called my friend who put the seminar on to check but he hasn't called me back to confirm. I've been told a couple of stories so we'll just leave it at that.


hmmm, Mas, have you ever run in to a guy named George that had trained in NC? He was training under Manny in the late 90's (I think in Albequerque) and went on to train under Gin Foon Mark after Manny...guy about 6 or a bit taller, rangy look to him and kinda weird.

[Mas Judt]

nah, by the late 90's I didn't have anything to do with him...

[Oso]

s'aright...longshot anyway

[monji112000]

This is, in my professional opinion, RETARDED :rolleyes:

training isn't a street fight, you want your students to train hard and train often and experience stuff wihout getting seriously hurt.

This is fake bravado, tough guy nonsense

If you are going to train for real then why not do for real. scatter broken glass too. Why not have people get hit by cars and fall off buildings to test their systema abilities? I would pay to watch :eek:

[Lucas]

I volunteer to be one of the guys on the side who randomly ribs you with steel toed boots!

[bakxierboxer]

hmmm, Mas, have you ever run in to a guy named George that had trained in NC? He was training under Manny in the late 90's (I think in Albequerque) and went on to train under Gin Foon Mark after Manny...guy about 6 or a bit taller, rangy look to him and kinda weird.

Don't know much about Mark Foon's students after the mid-70s on Christie St, NYC.
Early 70s he had a weirdo named George..... looked like he could have played in a zombie flic without any makeup.... had "those moves" down cold.
One time George was "on the floor" "practicing" when Mark Foon had a guest come by.... and he quickly ushered the fellow into the office saying "... don't look at him...."

[Oso]

lol, no, this George ended up in New Mexico in the late 90's and trained with Manny and brought him back here for a seminar but then I heard he went on to Mark but I don't know that for sure.

George was odd, a hard ass fighter but he would walk to classes with his gear in a bundle on the end of his staff

[bakxierboxer]

lol, no, this George ended up in New Mexico in the late 90's and trained with Manny and brought him back here for a seminar but then I heard he went on to Mark but I don't know that for sure.

George was odd, a hard ass fighter but he would walk to classes with his gear in a bundle on the end of his staff

Can't be the same person.... the "old one" would've hurt/killed himself with that staff in NYC.
Just guessing.... he probably never "made it" to be an " old George".

[monji112000]

chill dude,

you obviously have no idea what systema guys do!

they DONT slam each other on the ground etc!!!

it starts off lying down literally playing roly-poly rolling on the ground, they are VERY slow and progressive... builds up to breakfalls and rolling breakfalls, then jumping into them...

check out :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnrBSqzJMDI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvF17Wd4Fz4

[sanjuro_ronin]

LOL !
Vlad likes to do silly stuff at demos every so often.

[bob10]

these are the same people who sell a DVD on using Psychic powers on an attacker...

systema has a very cult like mentality, so to argue about it is a waste of time, again I will suggest that the people who actually can demonstrate skills all use mats to learn to grapple (BJJ, Sambo, Judo, Wrestling)

Sorry, but what a load of bolly-ollocks.

As far as working without mats goes, nothing "fake tough guy about it" (er bit difficult to fake being thrown?) simply gets people used to working in an envrionment that isn't padded....

Also helps work shock aborption which crosses over into other areas.

I guess calling us a cult obviates the need for rational argument or actual research on your part, so I'll go back to chanting and banging my head against the (unpadded) wall

R

[MasterKiller]

Sorry, but what a load of bolly-ollocks.

As far as working without mats goes, nothing "fake tough guy about it" (er bit difficult to fake being thrown?) simply gets people used to working in an envrionment that isn't padded....

Also helps work shock aborption which crosses over into other areas.

I guess calling us a cult obviates the need for rational argument or actual research on your part, so I'll go back to chanting and banging my head against the (unpadded) wall

R

FAKE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJDnMDJVWmQ&feature=related

[lkfmdc]

blah blah secret government assassin training blah blah blah blah Russian mind control blah blah blah blah let's play survivalist and dress in fatigues blah blah blah



I'm sorry, who are you again? :rolleyes:

As I said, I think the DVD on moving your opponent with psychi energy was the last nail in the systema coffin

[sanjuro_ronin]

I can move my opponent with psychi energy, the energy travels from my brain, down my arm to my fist ( for example) and travels to the opponent in the shape of a right cross on his jaw.

Disbeliever !!

[Mas Judt]

There is some really interesting stuff that has comer out of sambo - I like Scott Sonnen's bodywork stuff - but I've seen Systema knife work first hand - AND IT WOULD GET YOU KILLED. Period.

So on that basis, I cannot recommend it.

Case in point: There was a Systema master here in Chicago. He was killed. Knife and gunshot wounds, I believe. Sometimes it is very dangerous, the things you choose to believe.

[stricker]

There is some really interesting stuff that has comer out of sambo - I like Scott Sonnen's bodywork stuff - but I've seen Systema knife work first hand - AND IT WOULD GET YOU KILLED. Period.

So on that basis, I cannot recommend it.scott sonnons stuff is more out of systema than sambo. he went to russia because of sambo and then discovered systema, although i think its a slightly different line to mikhail, vlad, etc.

re: knifework. i dont think your supposed to take it literally. IMO systema is closer to a contact/partner bodywork method than a martial art. wd40 for all martial arts if you will

[stricker]

LOL !
Vlad likes to do silly stuff at demos every so often.have you met vlad in person?

[lkfmdc]

scott sonnons stuff is more out of systema than sambo. he went to russia because of sambo and then discovered systema,


I am pretty sure that Scott Sonnon will NOT say he is in any way affiliated with systema... his method is called "ROSS" (ironic, aint it!) and comes from Spironov (sp?) brank of SAMBO

[lkfmdc]

re: knifework. i dont think your supposed to take it literally.



you can't be serious? the systema guys all think they are doing the "deadly" .....

[Mas Judt]

My buddy Sam got booted from a Systema seminar as they tried to demonstrate their 'deadly' knifework to him. They suggested he try and resist. He did. Everyone got stabbed, except Sam. So he got booted out.

I had a similar experience.

They all felt they were very deadly. Here in Chicago I noticed a lot of Aikido people attracted to it. Which should say a lot.

Now - I think they do have some worthwhile stuff, bit globally, I think they are fooling themselves.

[stricker]

I am pretty sure that Scott Sonnon will NOT say he is in any way affiliated with systema... his method is called "ROSS" (ironic, aint it!) and comes from Spironov (sp?) brank of SAMBOyeah well theres the typical martial arts history bull**** going on.

the shockability and softwork dvds are almost identical to what they do in systema. look at how sonnon strikes and how mik and vlad strike. look at how a sambo guy strikes.

sonnons groundwork and takedowns stuff, sure thats totally different...

of course systema guys will slate sonnon, sonnon will slate systema blah blah blah, just compare the material...

apparently there were lawsuits filed sonnon vs systema on dvd material etc :rolleyes:

[stricker]

you can't be serious? the systema guys all think they are doing the "deadly" .....er, no, you can't be serious? i dont believe anyone could be stupid enough to think the slo mo knife sparring etc they do is real or supposed to be real? correct me if i'm wrong bob10? i just assumed it was a drill :rolleyes:

[lkfmdc]

yeah well theres the typical martial arts history bull**** going on.



ah, so you just chose to believe the system version of bull**** history?

on Sonnon's side, we know there is a very real art of sambo that has been along a very long time. Sonnon's teacher coined the term "ROSS" and they are upfront about it. Systema? Find me anything that used that term in say 1970?

Russian martial arts are a lot like Chinese martial arts, lots of fluff and a dependence upon people who don't know much about the details

[sanjuro_ronin]

have you met vlad in person?

Yes, nice guy actually, did a few of his classes in the 90's.

[stricker]

ah, so you just chose to believe the system version of bull**** history?

on Sonnon's side, we know there is a very real art of sambo that has been along a very long time. Sonnon's teacher coined the term "ROSS" and they are upfront about it. Systema? Find me anything that used that term in say 1970?

Russian martial arts are a lot like Chinese martial arts, lots of fluff and a dependence upon people who don't know much about the detailsno, i didnt.

please quote where i "just chose to believe the system version" ?

i didnt chose to believe the systema version, i dont even know or care what it is. i've read and forgotten a bunch of stuff from both sides.

the whole history thing is shady as hell, and i really dont give a **** anyway. look at the drills, look at the movements...

imo sonnons "interesting bodywork" stuff is from the same source as systema. you can quote me on that ;)

[stricker]

Yes, nice guy actually, did a few of his classes in the 90's.cool.

so, what did you make of it? i'm interested :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

cool.

so, what did you make of it? i'm interested :)

It wasn't for me, realize that I was coming in from kyokushin, judo, boxing and MT, it had very little to offer me, not a slight on it, just wasn't my bag of tea.

[bob10]

Like I said, it's all just banging your head against a wall. The anti-systema cult vs the systema-cult lol

[lkfmdc]

Like I said, it's all just banging your head against a wall. The anti-systema cult vs the systema-cult lol

Most of us really couldn't care less about systema, we just realize it is not what they say it is... on many levels

considering you run an affiliate, you aren't exactly a neutral opinion are you?

[bob10]

So I was born an affiliate? I had around 15+ years experience prior, trained with lots of "names", so I was hardly wet behind the ears when I met Vlad.

As for it not being whay "they say it is" I most often find it's not what other people say it is, but there we go. The people who really couldn't care less (which is no problem) don't keep banging on about it on forums I would imagine

[Ben Gash]

FAKE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJDnMDJVWmQ&feature=related

I can feel the holy spirit moving in me! Hallelujah!!!

[stricker]

It wasn't for me, realize that I was coming in from kyokushin, judo, boxing and MT, it had very little to offer me, not a slight on it, just wasn't my bag of tea.fair enough :)

[rogue]

I can feel the holy spirit moving in me! Hallelujah!!!

Somebody gave me that video, ugh. I've always found what Vlad was doing interesting though the training seems too unique. Once I would like to see Vlad move at full speed.

[stricker]

Like I said, it's all just banging your head against a wall. The anti-systema cult vs the systema-cult lolinternet forums like banging your head against a wall?? never :D

like i said... jewels among the dirt... no jewels this time :rolleyes:

[lkfmdc]

here are some more systema "jewels" :rolleyes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jf0zf4hc-tc&feature=related

[Drake]

I can feel the holy spirit moving in me! Hallelujah!!!

That ain't the holy spirit...