Forms.....and how they're done.

[hskwarrior]

You know some recent comments had me thinking......

Forms are an outlet for self expression, and are not meant to be reproduced in carbon copy fashion. THAT would be insane. None of us are built exactly the same, and for something to be a carbon copy, it HAS to be perfectly the same.

On one of the scale you have someone who PERFORMS at a slower pace, but is strong, smooth, and fluid. Then you have someone who performs fast, hard and aggressive. Both are just ways of expressing yourself.

Forms hold the keys to unlock all the fighting stuff in our gung fu. But, if when it comes to applications, we all do them the same exact way, then what does it really matter how someone performs a form?

If its more important to be carbon copy-ish, can you explain to me why thats so important? i'd like to hear various opinions on this.

[Drake]

Some are meant for specific applications, I think. Some may be done fast or slow, and some are even supposed to be done at various speeds.

I don't know about the self-expression part, not for those of us in training. We need to know the proper way the technique is done, and by repeating certain patterns the proper way, we develop better technique.

Perhaps later on the form becomes more of an art form, but for those of us still working our way up, it's to drill in proper habits and form.

[hskwarrior]

IMO,

by the time you reach a level where you can actually express yourself, yeah, i agree, in the beginning you have to learn it technically correct, with all its properties.

but once you get good with that form, is when I believe you can start looking for self expression. like i said, we all cannot do the same things, we all have different strengths, energies, and so forth.

when you master a form, you should be able to manipulate in any fashion you like. that is how and why you've mastered it.

[Drake]

Well... if the form calls on you to do a double back flip and land on your pinkie finger, then I fully believe that should be your goal, regardless of how insanely impossible it might seem at first...

[hskwarrior]

if you do a set of applications slow during a performance is one thing, but when it comes to actual combat, it changes to meet the needs of the situation.

its like saying just because tai chi is slow they couldn't use it for fighting.

its not the form that makes you fight, its whose behind to form, and what his intentions are that matters.

[Tai-Lik]

You know some recent comments had me thinking......

Forms are an outlet for self expression, and are not meant to be reproduced in carbon copy fashion. THAT would be insane. None of us are built exactly the same, and for something to be a carbon copy, it HAS to be perfectly the same.

On one of the scale you have someone who PERFORMS at a slower pace, but is strong, smooth, and fluid. Then you have someone who performs fast, hard and aggressive. Both are just ways of expressing yourself.

Forms hold the keys to unlock all the fighting stuff in our gung fu. But, if when it comes to applications, we all do them the same exact way, then what does it really matter how someone performs a form?

If its more important to be carbon copy-ish, can you explain to me why thats so important? i'd like to hear various opinions on this.


People are not carbon copies, so i don't think that the way they perform should be the same either. The movements should fit the person, so if you have to adjust a movement in order to fit a certain person's size or ability i think it's okay. as long as the structure and intention of the movement is correct, makes sense, and can be applied by better with that adjustment than your okay.

[sanjuro_ronin]

If forms are suppose to be interpretations of actual fighting techniques, then they must be don so accordingly, adjust for how those techniques work best for the individual.
No two forms should look alike, even though the techniques are the same, if its tow different people doing it.

[hskwarrior]

Tai Lik,

I get the feeling you know what i mean, but when you do a form, sometimes there is a flow, a wave if you will that takes over and if you ride along with that wave, you'd find different flows and what not.

big guys are expected to look strong, not fast, but when you see a big guy give a little of both its nice to watch.

it would be really really boring if all martial arts had the exact same flow. some make me feel like martial arts is more like a "PLEASANTVILLE" when i know its not in any way shape or form.

in fact, when you learn you own flow, its a sense of freedom like never experienced.

at least for me.

and for the most part, tai lik i agree.

[hskwarrior]

just because its played out at a slower pace, whose to say that it isn't being played out in a combative manner?

how do we know whats going on in the mind of the performer?

[BruceSteveRoy]

when i was practicing my forms for tai ji legacy my sifu came over and watched and said that i should focus on demonstrating the strikes and techniques as powerful, and not to worry so much about going very fast. which was the almost exact opposite advice he gave to the classmate that went before me who was performing the same form. when i asked him why he told one student to show a lot of energy and a speed and me to focus on the power and strength he said it was bc i am a little older and stockier and it would be more advantageous to use my frame to its advantage in genrating power where the other dude was a teenager and was on the skinnier side and he would be better served striking fast and moving a lot. i think the ultimate goal is to be fast and powerful but it was that conversation that i first realized that forms candefinately be played differently to accentuate the students natural attributes. prior to that i always thought there was a right way and a wrong way and that it was very black and white.

[hskwarrior]

EXACKERY!!!!!

Your sifu was playing your best attributes. as a good sifu should.

Since the, have you found YOUR personal flow yet?

[omarthefish]

if you do a set of applications slow during a performance is one thing, but when it comes to actual combat, it changes to meet the needs of the situation.

its like saying just because tai chi is slow they couldn't use it for fighting.

its not the form that makes you fight, its whose behind to form, and what his intentions are that matters.

Really good point. Nice to see that stuff here on the southern forum. Usually I only get to read discussions on intent on the IMA forums.


just because its played out at a slower pace, whose to say that it isn't being played out in a combative manner?

how do we know whats going on in the mind of the performer?

I mentioned to my Shifu in China the thinking that's out there about various Taiji "fast sets" and how there is a perception that slow performance is for health and meditation and you need fast sets for fighting.

He burst out laughing.

Basically the slower you do it, the more it becomes about intent rather than calisthenics. YC Wong said almost the same thing. He told me that we do them fast for performances. For actually training they should be much slower. I think your two comments there, Frank, really hit the mark. INTENT. It depends on the form and I can find a lot of value in all sorts of speeds but I find far more "combative" stuff often when doing things extremely slow. I learn more. Fast forms, IMO, are for "training". Slow tends to be more for "practice".

[hskwarrior]

exactly. well spoken. thanks OTF!!!!

its nice to hear others who feel the same way.......

IMO, the slower the practice, but mixed along with the mental focus will allow our gung fu to become more instinctual at a faster pace.

[BruceSteveRoy]

EXACKERY!!!!!

Your sifu was playing your best attributes. as a good sifu should.

Since the, have you found YOUR personal flow yet?

yeah actually since i stopped focusing on trying to mimic my sihings exactly and started doing the forms the way that sifu suggested and the way that is more "natural" to me i find that i get more out of the forms. i feel like i learn a bit faster now and i find that combinations of techniques have gotten easier to perform bc i am not trying to necessarily fly through them. by focusing more on power i can really make sure the foot work is right and as a result i have been speeding up (with power).

btw good idea for a thread.

[hskwarrior]

very nice! keep up the good work.

[RFM]

Maybe I am over simplifying the issue, but really forms practice is dealing with muscle memory and developing proper alignment of the body to maximize chi flow. Applicable combat technique begins with proper form. As I mentioned on another thread, form is essential and practice of forms develops this skill. A baseball pitcher doesn't just throw a ball, he/she has to practice the proper form to maximize their effort.

I've coached baseball for my kids too.

Once your body has "memorize" certain movements - application and the ability to modify and adjust as needed is easy and second nature. I've been out of practice for a long time, but there are still some actions that are second nature!

Peace,
Bob

[Tai-Lik]

we hear in chinese gung fu that one structure or movement can be applied many ways. on hand it can be adjusted for a particular opponents attack or style and on the other hand it can be adjusted for your own abilities.

in some styles and some forms the techniques are not always applied in the same manner as in the form. With this in mind what are you intending to demonstrate and train when you do your form?

[hskwarrior]

as a beginner, my main focus is the get the mechanics down.

then once i achieve that, then i look for my personal flow.

see, i think as a beginner imitation, or being a carbon copy of your sifu is great introduction at learning to OWN your gung fu.

whether soft, medium or hard intent, i am always focusing on real life combat in mind.

[Tai-Lik]

as a beginner, my main focus is the get the mechanics down.

then once i achieve that, then i look for my personal flow.

see, i think as a beginner imitation, or being a carbon copy of your sifu is great introduction at learning to OWN your gung fu.

whether soft, medium or hard intent, i am always focusing on real life combat in mind.


good point frank

My Sifu taught us about Mu ying and Yau ying. basically Mu ying are things in chinese boxing you can not see or not easily apparent such as Sik (knowledge), chi, ging, daam (fearlessness), etc.....

yau ying are the things you can see such as Yiu lik (waist power), bo (footwork), Gnan (eyes), etc...

mu ying and yau ying are the general principles or fundamentals of fighting/ chinese boxing, so even when you peform or practice your form you should have mu ying and yau ying in order to benefit from forms pratice or else your just dancing and wasting your time.

[hskwarrior]

thank you sir,

and all you mentioned CAN effectively be done both slow and fast.

and have the same effects.

thanks you that contribution there.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Maybe I am over simplifying the issue, but really forms practice is dealing with muscle memory and developing proper alignment of the body to maximize chi flow. Applicable combat technique begins with proper form. As I mentioned on another thread, form is essential and practice of forms develops this skill. A baseball pitcher doesn't just throw a ball, he/she has to practice the proper form to maximize their effort.

I've coached baseball for my kids too.

Once your body has "memorize" certain movements - application and the ability to modify and adjust as needed is easy and second nature. I've been out of practice for a long time, but there are still some actions that are second nature!

Peace,
Bob

Well, that is a whole can of worms right there...

[djcaldwell]

People are not carbon copies, so i don't think that the way they perform should be the same either. The movements should fit the person, so if you have to adjust a movement in order to fit a certain person's size or ability i think it's okay. as long as the structure and intention of the movement is correct, makes sense, and can be applied by better with that adjustment than your okay.

I think Tai-Lik said it best in that the intention and structure of the movement have to remain in tact and adjusting the application to be effective to your body is acceptable provided you are not losing the purpose.

But when forms are just performed through either too slow or too "soft or flighty" (for lack of better descriptive words) then the "intent" in the techniques is lost. When movements in forms are meant to follow sequence and they play a part in structuring the power and intent of the technique following and it's done soft or quickly to be expressive then IMO it will lose the intent the form was meant to convey and implement in the technique.

I think doing forms slow when practicing is good. I like doing forms with dynamic tension to help build muscle memory - BUT - you can't forget how the form is actually meant to be played and how the techniques are meant to be applied. Expression is great but not at the expense of what it to be learned from what you are practicing and I think that many people use that as an excuse to perform forms and techniques incorrectly (it's how "I" or "we" do it). All for creative forms but as Tai-Lik said they have to make sense (but that's another thread!).

[CLFNole]

I also really think that this comes down to the style that you do. Every style has a certain flow, feel, look and power generation to it. Every style is done the same nor should it be but if someone learns two different styles they shouldn't do them the same way, they should perform the style how it was meant to be done. I think the way a form should be performed should match its style somewhat. That doesn't mean each person from a given style should have their own flavor though.

[RFM]

I think it also needs to be said that there are some arts that seem to incorporate useless movements for the sake of presentation. I was taking a couple of Tang Soo Do classes and the instructor was giving some good background on the art (a good art mind you) and mentioned that at higher levels there were more flowery movements included in the forms. He demonstrated a movement - which to this day, I see no practical application. To be fair, some of his demonstration may have been shooting straight from the hip for the sake of discussion, but I have observed some styles that have a great deal of fluff.

I believe most traditional CMA do not have a lot of fluff in the forms. My style for example, does not waste movement as I am sure many others do not. Thus the importance of forms.

Peace,
Bob

[David Jamieson]

some forms also mix qigongs in with martial material.

[Yum Cha]

Consider this discussion in light of the difference between karate or Tae Kwon Do forms as compared to Chinese forms.

IMHO, The former have spend massive energies in consolidating their styles into codified and precise executions, where every player aspires to look the same.

The latter are more flexible for personal interpretation, within a given standard.

In my school, a good teacher first instills the form and precision of a Pak Mei form, and as soon as the student captures that, empowers them to begin to explore the intrepretations. A move in a form has many interpretations, it may not look like any one, but can become any. This is one of the gifts of Pak Mei. I'm sure it's not a unique feature to Pak Mei, but I can only speak with authority on what I know.

Form is critical. I like to tell students that their training and form will protect them from the misadventures of their agression, should it falter.

Likewise, forms can also train agression and ferocity as spirit.

Forms can also train breathing and all those groovy internal experiences, of course.

I think the important thing is that forms can provide you with many different kinds of training and entertainment, and shouldn't be restrictive to a senior, while they may be to a junior.

[Eric Olson]

I think forms have many layers.

On the surface they are just a catalog of techniques. At a deeper level they are about jin (ie body mechanics). At a deeper level still it is about something more mental like chi or intent.

So you can do the sequence of movements exactly correct but if you don't have the right jin and the right intent then its not quite right.

IMO, in self-defense its the jin and intent that are most important because your techniques are not going to come in a nice clean sequence.

But if the jin and intent are ingrained then you can use your body in the way that fits the situation best.

Cheers

EO