BJ Penn as a white belt...

[BruceSteveRoy]

competing against a black belt in Judo. Wasn't sure if you all had seen this or not. its weird to see him so young, thin and with such a full head of hair.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUNgJPsUb1A

[sanjuro_ronin]

competing against a black belt in Judo. Wasn't sure if you all had seen this or not. its weird to see him so young, thin and with such a full head of hair.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUNgJPsUb1A

Take anyone out of their element and they will get beat and that was what BJ did, he didn't go for the ippon which iw what 99% of the judo players would go for.

Any clips of him taking on a Pro or Amateur Boxer or MT fighter?

[monji112000]

competing against a black belt in Judo. Wasn't sure if you all had seen this or not. its weird to see him so young, thin and with such a full head of hair.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUNgJPsUb1A

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7Cqkgdu9zs&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkwCwFEPpQM&feature=related

you can win a match and still loose.

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7Cqkgdu9zs&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkwCwFEPpQM&feature=related

you can win a match and still loose.

Helio Vs Kimura....Yes kimura went easy on him and yes Kimura won and yes the Gracies tried to spin it.
So ?

[BruceSteveRoy]

Take anyone out of their element and they will get beat and that was what BJ did, he didn't go for the ippon which iw what 99% of the judo players would go for.

Any clips of him taking on a Pro or Amateur Boxer or MT fighter?

I agree with what you are saying. But you have to admit it takes pretty big huevos to go into any grappling tournament as a white belt and go against a black belt.

For the record i wasn't posting this to say one is better than the other. I don't think one is. i just thought it was a neat video.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I agree with what you are saying. But you have to admit it takes pretty big huevos to go into any grappling tournament as a white belt and go against a black belt.

For the record i wasn't posting this to say one is better than the other. I don't think one is. i just thought it was a neat video.

Good size huevos, yes.
Smarts too, to pick the correct "sport".

[MightyB]

to me he just looks like a Judoka who specializes in Newaza. There's really not that much difference between the two arts. You see a lot more Newaza than you used to in Judo tourneys now, but, for historical reference: http://youtube.com/watch?v=TUuANBmoj4o

I have some excellent footage of Mifune doing groundwork including leglocks that I don't see anywhere on the web (considering it was a VHS recording of an 8mm news reel). I'll convert it for youtube and I'll let you know when I post it.



----

[Three Harmonies]

Please do! Mifune was the shnizel back in the day! Would have been awesome to train with him!
Jake

[monji112000]

Helio Vs Kimura....Yes kimura went easy on him and yes Kimura won and yes the Gracies tried to spin it.
So ?
You are missing the big picture I can name classic boxing fights also. The fact that you "win", doesn't mean you WIN. I can go to a point sparring match and knock the guy out. He "won", but I didn't loose. Anyone with half a brain can see that although Gracie lost the match, he won in the bigger picture. Everyone looses fights, how you lost, and what you take from the fight defines if you win or loose. Just go to any martial art school and ask them if they heard of the name gracie... then ask Kimura. They will probably say they never heard of Kimura or they will say its a BJJ technique.
Gracie lost the fight, but Gracie clearly won. Ali lost the fight but he clearly won. ect... ect...
I go to a Judo match and loose but tap the guy.. who won? depends on who you ask. its all relative, nothing is absolute. Facts are all relative. History isn't honest, its whatever you say it is.
Just look at any conflict in the world. two (or more) groups claiming that history is one way or another. They all can't be right... or can they?

[sanjuro_ronin]

You are missing the big picture I can name classic boxing fights also. The fact that you "win", doesn't mean you WIN. I can go to a point sparring match and knock the guy out. He "won", but I didn't loose. Anyone with half a brain can see that although Gracie lost the match, he won in the bigger picture. Everyone looses fights, how you lost, and what you take from the fight defines if you win or loose. Just go to any martial art school and ask them if they heard of the name gracie... then ask Kimura. They will probably say they never heard of Kimura or they will say its a BJJ technique.
Gracie lost the fight, but Gracie clearly won. Ali lost the fight but he clearly won. ect... ect...
I go to a Judo match and loose but tap the guy.. who won? depends on who you ask.

The Gracies had a better marketing team.
Perhaps of Kimura had demolished him completely, leaving him battered and broken, things woudl have been different, but I doubt it, Helio was a nobody and Kimura a world champ and all that would have meant was that he got beat by the best judoka of that era.
GJJ would still have gone the same way.

[monji112000]

The Gracies had a better marketing team.
Perhaps of Kimura had demolished him completely, leaving him battered and broken, things woudl have been different, but I doubt it, Helio was a nobody and Kimura a world champ and all that would have meant was that he got beat by the best judoka of that era.
GJJ would still have gone the same way.
Your missing the whole point. I doesn't even matter who people believe won. Gracie evolved, even named the **** technique after Kimura. Gracie continued to evolve, and hist art has continued the evolution. Like it or not did Kimura change evolve Judo the way Gracie continued to do? What effect did the match have on him or his art? you see people all the time loose and still become better fighters becouse of the fight. GJJ continues to evolve, you can clearly see it in fact that techniques are added that were originally unused. Why is that Renzo has MT at his school? Why are guys training with sambo and other wrestling arts? I am not taking a stab at Kimura or Judo.. its just that I see Gracie coming away from the fight gaining much more than Kimura did. Thus continuing my point about how do you define winning, and its all relative. What were the stats on Kimura? what about Gracie? If I were to go into a Golden glove fight and hold my own.. yet loose.. I would personally consider it a major victory. :)

[MightyB]

and what art you practice.

You say Kimura in Japan or at a Judo dojo, they definitely know who you're talking about.

Gracie was very brave- seriously- to fight Kimura was insane. Kimura was the bomb- unfortunately he lived in a time without cable tv, pay per view, and the internet.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Your missing the whole point. I doesn't even matter who people believe won. Gracie evolved, even named the **** technique after Kimura. Gracie continued to evolve, and hist art has continued the evolution. Like it or not did Kimura change evolve Judo the way Gracie continued to do? What effect did the match have on him or his art? you see people all the time loose and still become better fighters becouse of the fight. GJJ continues to evolve, you can clearly see it in fact that techniques are added that were originally unused. Why is that Renzo has MT at his school? Why are guys training with sambo and other wrestling arts? I am not taking a stab at Kimura or Judo.. its just that I see Gracie coming away from the fight gaining much more than Kimura did. Thus continuing my point about how do you define winning, and its all relative. What were the stats on Kimura? what about Gracie? If I were to go into a Golden glove fight and hold my own.. yet loose.. I would personally consider it a major victory. :)

LOL !
I got your point from the beginning bro, its just subjective that's all.
I understand that in Helio losing, it was a victory for GJJ and BJJ, far more than for Judo, even Kimura said it was a moral victory for Helio.
There is nothing in BJJ that doesn't exist in Judo, simple fact is that competition judo is focused on the ippon at that time and still is, which Kimura got in the first 30 seconds or what not.
Top say that the Gracies became better fighters is irrelevant to the Kimura issue, they didn;t go on to become better judokas, nor did they challenge him again I think ( not sure).
Judo went its way because that was the way the kodokan oriented it, olympic judo being the goal.

As for defining winning, I like how you define, so doea Rorion, and his view of how Matt's victory over royce was a victory for GJJ.
:D

[monji112000]

and what art you practice.

You say Kimura in Japan or at a Judo dojo, they definitely know who you're talking about.

Gracie was very brave- seriously- to fight Kimura was insane. Kimura was the bomb- unfortunately he lived in a time without cable tv, pay per view, and the internet.

go to a choy lay fut school and ask them if they know the name Gracie. Then ask them if they know a person named Kimura. at least 7 out of 10 will ether think Kimura is a (reverse)keylock or never heard of him. Its not about fame its about what the fame represents.

I am a Wing Chun person. I train with different styles and people. I have started to really enjoy the sport of wrestling(submission). I also enjoy soccer, football, rugby, hockey, tennis, basketball, MT, and many more.
What about you?


LOL !
I got your point from the beginning bro, its just subjective that's all.
:D
yes everything is.

[monji112000]

As for defining winning, I like how you define, so doea Rorion, and his view of how Matt's victory over royce was a victory for GJJ.
...
There is nothing in BJJ that doesn't exist in Judo:D
its not just my view its also the Gracie view. In reality the Gracies aren't in control of BJJ anymore. Its become to influential that you can almost question what new significance the name Gracie has. I would never train at a Gracie academy. Well I would never say NEVER.. but I found it to be too closed minded and commercial. They seemed more interested in my credit card than why I was interested in training with them. I'm sure not every Gracie school is that way, but the reputation is there.
Its the same in computers, what relevance is IBM really. Outside of obscure locations, who buys a IBM anything. Yet "IBM" PC's were the defacto not to long ago. You go into a BestBuy and ask for a IBM clone ... LOL they won't know what your talking about.

I can't comment on if everything in the whole BJJ world exists in the whole Judo world.. I personally am not a big judo fan. I enjoy watching Greco and free style more. Maybe its the whole Kimono thing.. its not me. I would personally love to train with a Judo guy. I am sure he could show me allot. But no Gi for me plz.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I remember when BJJ was taking the credit for developing the triangle - sankaku-jime in Judo.
Kids...

[Knifefighter]

There is nothing in BJJ that doesn't exist in Judo, simple fact is that competition judo is focused on the ippon at that time and still is, which Kimura got in the first 30 seconds or what not.


When is the last time you saw a D'Arce choke, heel hook, calf crusher, twister or figure 4 footlock in Judo?

Every system develops its own particular things that may or may not later on be incorporated into other systems.

[MightyB]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=korAyURbW6c

I have a lot more footage than this it just takes a lot of time to do the conversions. I'll post some more soon.

- Pay attention to the end of this vid when he starts showing escapes. He shows a couple of leg attacks.

Audio's Bad because it's actually a recording of an 8mm projection- old school film for all you kids out there.

[Oso]

Take anyone out of their element and they will get beat and that was what BJ did, he didn't go for the ippon which iw what 99% of the judo players would go for.

Any clips of him taking on a Pro or Amateur Boxer or MT fighter?

correct me if I'm wrong (I've only competed in one judo tourny) but can't you win with neiwaza by tapout or points? so, it's not like the judo guy didn't know there were options other than the throw for ippon

seems like the big win of the ippon causes a narrowing of focus in most judokas that compete

[Three Harmonies]

Thanks Mighty B!! Very nice! He is one of the old school cats I would love to hang out with a chat with.

Cheers
Jake :D

[MasterKiller]

When is the last time you saw a D'Arce choke, heel hook, calf crusher, twister or figure 4 footlock in Judo?

Every system develops its own particular things that may or may not later on be incorporated into other systems.

I know you are right, but technically a twister was a wrestling guillotine first.

[monji112000]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=korAyURbW6c

I have a lot more footage than this it just takes a lot of time to do the conversions. I'll post some more soon.

- Pay attention to the end of this vid when he starts showing escapes. He shows a couple of leg attacks.

Audio's Bad because it's actually a recording of an 8mm projection- old school film for all you kids out there.


I know you are right, but technically a twister was a wrestling guillotine first.

nice clip.
Real innovation isn't magically creating something(that only works for deities), its using(or improving) something someone did. I am sure you can look through and see so many submissions are from many places. Even the places people learned from learned them or adapted them from someone else. Techniques are evolved like any anything else.

If thats the type of stuff you see at Judo tournaments, then I would be interested in watching some.. but the last one I watched wasn't at all like that.

I can name a few stuff that I am 100% sure Judo never had. That doesn't mean you can't add it to your judo game.

Honestly the big thing for me in BJJ isn't the submissions its all the other stuff.
I would be happy with 5 submissions, never learn anymore.

[bodhitree]

correct me if I'm wrong (I've only competed in one judo tourny) but can't you win with neiwaza by tapout or points? so, it's not like the judo guy didn't know there were options other than the throw for ippon

seems like the big win of the ippon causes a narrowing of focus in most judokas that compete

You can win by submission in Judo. Submissions in Judo include armlocks and chokes. You can also win by pin or throw/s, as long as those throw/s equal ippon.



When is the last time you saw a D'Arce choke, heel hook, calf crusher, twister or figure 4 footlock in Judo? Knifefighter

I'm not saying they were there, but the rules of judo have changed considerably, including the removal of leglocks. Again, I'm not saying they were practiced by judoka pre-removal of leg locks, but they very well may have been.

[sanjuro_ronin]

When is the last time you saw a D'Arce choke, heel hook, calf crusher, twister or figure 4 footlock in Judo?

Every system develops its own particular things that may or may not later on be incorporated into other systems.

Point taken, I am sure they may be added, or not, judoka tend to be anally retentive about change.
I have seen some of those locks in judo, they old Kawashi manual had some, though not in the typical wreslting format, I don't think it has a calf crusher and not the twister for sure, but it diod have a heel hook and a "achilles lock".

But you are quite correct that every system develops its unique things, been dabbling with the CSW guys and I have picked a few new things too :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=korAyURbW6c

I have a lot more footage than this it just takes a lot of time to do the conversions. I'll post some more soon.

- Pay attention to the end of this vid when he starts showing escapes. He shows a couple of leg attacks.

Audio's Bad because it's actually a recording of an 8mm projection- old school film for all you kids out there.

Mifune was excellent in Ne waza, he was credited with the "development" of the sankaku-jime, in his book, the Canon of judo, you can see some very nice ground work to sat the least.
Great clip.

[sanjuro_ronin]

correct me if I'm wrong (I've only competed in one judo tourny) but can't you win with neiwaza by tapout or points? so, it's not like the judo guy didn't know there were options other than the throw for ippon

seems like the big win of the ippon causes a narrowing of focus in most judokas that compete

You are quite correct, and that is changing, thank goodness.
You are now seeing many schools focusing more time on newaza and submissions, not just going for the pin.
In a few that are even doing striking :eek:

[MightyB]

Actually Judo's undergone a lot of changes through the years. The teachers are pretty anal when they first teach a technique- but any good coach with a Shiai background tells you to innovate the techniques to make them work for you. One of the biggest criticisms that I personally get is that I'm always trying to be too technical and it slows me down. I get that from my CMA background where technical precision is expected. In Judo- it's anything that works to win. I've even had one coach that said that there really aren't that many throws- it's just a good turn with Kazushi- the leg position in the execution is just for showing off- "you lift it this way then you're throwing this, but if you reap it this way, you're doing this throw etc." Same initial body positioning on all of them.

BJJ isn't the same as when the Gracies first came to the US. Judo isn't the same as it was 5 years ago. But to a good Judoka- style names are more of rule requirements for competition- Sambo is Judo that allows these techniques, Jiu Jitsu is Judo that allows these techniques, Competition Ju Jitsu is Judo that allows... you get the picture.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Actually Judo's undergone a lot of changes through the years. The teachers are pretty anal when they first teach a technique- but any good coach with a Shiai background tells you to innovate the techniques to make them work for you. One of the biggest criticisms that I personally get is that I'm always trying to be too technical and it slows me down. I get that from my CMA background where technical precision is expected. In Judo- it's anything that works to win. I've even had one coach that said that there really aren't that many throws- it's just a good turn with Kazushi- the leg position in the execution is just for showing off- "you lift it this way then you're throwing this, but if you reap it this way, you're doing this throw etc." Same initial body positioning on all of them.

BJJ isn't the same as when the Gracies first came to the US. Judo isn't the same as it was 5 years ago. But to a good Judoka- style names are more of rule requirements for competition- Sambo is Judo that allows these techniques, Jiu Jitsu is Judo that allows these techniques, Competition Ju Jitsu is Judo that allows... you get the picture.

BJJ And Sambo came from Judo and have judo as their core.
No reason why judo can't be as complete as it once was AND still focus on olympic competitions.

[bodhitree]

Personally, for SPORT, I like the sporting format of judo with the focus of stand up throwing. To me it makes the sport more pleasing to watch. I love to practice bjj, but to be honest watching bjj can be quite boring. I hope the popularity of bjj and groundfighting doesn't change sport judo! I also like the fact that once you're on the ground in judo you have to act fast because you only have a limited amount of time to do something (escape the pin, pull off submission, whatever).

I like the two seperate sports, and practice both, but I hope they stay seperate! Plus practicing both types of randori seperately helps to develop both games better!

[Three Harmonies]

If you think BJJ is boring you are either; not watching good people do it, or don't know what to look for!



What is Sankaku Jime?

Thanks
Jake :D

[bodhitree]

What is Sankaku Jime?

Thanks
Jake :D


triangle choke

[sanjuro_ronin]

Personally, for SPORT, I like the sporting format of judo with the focus of stand up throwing. To me it makes the sport more pleasing to watch. I love to practice bjj, but to be honest watching bjj can be quite boring. I hope the popularity of bjj and groundfighting doesn't change sport judo! I also like the fact that once you're on the ground in judo you have to act fast because you only have a limited amount of time to do something (escape the pin, pull off submission, whatever).

I like the two seperate sports, and practice both, but I hope they stay seperate! Plus practicing both types of randori seperately helps to develop both games better!

I agree, I think the time limit should be moved up a bit and the ground work be more submission orieinted.

[bodhitree]

I agree, I think the time limit should be moved up a bit and the ground work be more submission orieinted.


I don't think you do agree, I said I don't want it to change! :D

[sanjuro_ronin]

I don't think you do agree, I said I don't want it to change! :D

LOL !
I agree with what you said, BUT...

[MightyB]

[QUOTE=bodhitree;824164]I also like the fact that once you're on the ground in judo you have to act fast because you only have a limited amount of time to do something (escape the pin, pull off submission, whatever).
QUOTE]

I don't think that's going to change anytime soon. It's really up to the ref to decide if you're making progress on the ground or if he stand you up.

I just read in the latest USJF Magazine that the "Explosive Newaza" is what makes Judo a good combat art. It's the mentality of when you hit the ground, you make something happen fast, or you get back up because you don't want to stay on the ground with a person during a streetfight or battle.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I just read in the latest USJF Magazine that the "Explosive Newaza" is what makes Judo a good combat art. It's the mentality of when you hit the ground, you make something happen fast, or you get back up because you don't want to stay on the ground with a person during a streetfight or battle.

Bingo, and that characteristic should never change, it makes for a more exciting sport and a more effective combat system.
A "submission for every position" view.

[Oso]

You are quite correct, and that is changing, thank goodness.
You are now seeing many schools focusing more time on newaza and submissions, not just going for the pin.
In a few that are even doing striking :eek:


the group I was working with here was just a club and a couple of them were in the JJJ class as well so the judo practices were more well rounded than what was apparent at the UT tourney I went to.

I feel the same as bodhitree about the judo sport format, I liked it a lot and wish I could get the time to train judo.

I don't agree that watching bjj is boring, I like the chess game aspect as well.

hey, speaking of judo

http://www.dogjudo.co.uk/

:D

[bodhitree]

The one thing I don't like about judo is that the rear mount doesn't count for anything (unless you get the tap fast) and this creates the habit at some clubs of rolling stomach down to avoid the pin. Luckily the Judo club I train at also has a bjj program, and just about everyone crosstrains! That's the only thing I don't like about sport judo.

[MightyB]

some Ippons on face down opponents: http://youtube.com/watch?v=jVqIdt-UZjU

[Three Harmonies]

Nice!
Thanks,
Jake :D

[Seppukku]

GJJ would still have gone the same way.

Quietly into the night, their tails between their legs, ****ing in fear, looking back at the shadow of the KILLER.

[monji112000]

[QUOTE=bodhitree;824164]I also like the fact that once you're on the ground in judo you have to act fast because you only have a limited amount of time to do something (escape the pin, pull off submission, whatever).
QUOTE]

I don't think that's going to change anytime soon. It's really up to the ref to decide if you're making progress on the ground or if he stand you up.

I just read in the latest USJF Magazine that the "Explosive Newaza" is what makes Judo a good combat art. It's the mentality of when you hit the ground, you make something happen fast, or you get back up because you don't want to stay on the ground with a person during a streetfight or battle.

if judo is the end all to be all whats the percentage of Judo players compared to BJJ/sambo/catch ect.. at naga and abu dhabi ?
not too impressed with speed grappling, you see too much sloppy crap. I prefer to see someone who can wrestle that looks like he is moving slow and soft. (he may not be soft or slow but he looks that way).
You can normally catch allot of mistakes when people rush. But hey what would I know? Anyone do any no gi judo? what about no gi judo tournaments?
I prefer to take my time and burst, not just go all nuts...

the problem with thinking going super fast and sloppy will help in a real fight is is that ... you get a false sense of reality. If you have a situation were you can't just bs through your stuck.

[bodhitree]

[QUOTE=monji112000;824270]

if judo is the end all to be all whats the percentage of Judo players compared to BJJ/sambo/catch ect.. at naga and abu dhabi ?
not too impressed with speed grappling, you see too much sloppy crap. I prefer to see someone who can wrestle that looks like he is moving slow and soft. (he may not be soft or slow but he looks that way).
You can normally catch allot of mistakes when people rush. But hey what would I know? Anyone do any no gi judo? what about no gi judo tournaments?
I prefer to take my time and burst, not just go all nuts...

the problem with thinking going super fast and sloppy will help in a real fight is is that ... you get a false sense of reality. If you have a situation were you can't just bs through your stuck.


Nobody said judo was "the end all to be all", we said we liked to watch it as a sport. Learn how to read, dumb ass. You ask about judo players at naga/ abu dhabi: Rhadi Ferguson for one, and I know there are more, but not off the top of my head. If you think judo guys use 'sloppy speed', find some top level judo guys and randori with them. Talk about not having a sense of reality:rolleyes:

[Vash]

Let's try to keep this on-topic, please.

[monji112000]

[QUOTE=monji112000;825174]


Nobody said judo was "the end all to be all", we said we liked to watch it as a sport. Learn how to read, dumb ass. You ask about judo players at naga/ abu dhabi: Rhadi Ferguson for one, and I know there are more, but not off the top of my head. If you think judo guys use 'sloppy speed', find some top level judo guys and randori with them. Talk about not having a sense of reality:rolleyes:
well the comment was something like judo has everything bjj has, and the impression that was made is that judo (the older version) is really just as good if not better than modern grappling. i am 100% sure anyone who has gone to naga and abu dabi doing decently has done more than just judo.
:rolleyes:

[sanjuro_ronin]

[QUOTE=bodhitree;825310]
well the comment was something like judo has everything bjj has, and the impression that was made is that judo (the older version) is really just as good if not better than modern grappling. i am 100% sure anyone who has gone to naga and abu dabi doing decently has done more than just judo.
:rolleyes:

Naga and the ADCC are submission grappling tournaments, you know that, judo is NOT a submission grappling system, even though it CAN be and has the basic principles of one.

[MightyB]

Here it is- the answer you all were looking for: http://www.budochallenge.com/merchant/budo-what-it-is.html

Seriously- BJJ was a wake up call to Judo just like every other martial art. I actually wish that I was doing BJJ instead of Judo because, as I get older, my body can't take the big throws as well as it used to. Plus, my main training partner is 10 years younger and 60 pounds heavier than me. He has an advantage in throwing, but he doesn't when we hit the ground.

-

[sanjuro_ronin]

Here it is- the answer you all were looking for: http://www.budochallenge.com/merchant/budo-what-it-is.html

Seriously- BJJ was a wake up call to Judo just like every other martial art. I actually wish that I was doing BJJ instead of Judo because, as I get older, my body can't take the big throws as well as it used to. Plus, my main training partner is 10 years younger and 60 pounds heavier than me. He has an advantage in throwing, but he doesn't when we hit the ground.

-

Nice link.