The Mexican invasion

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Is it ok for 12 million Mexicans to just move here in violation of US immigration law?

Is it Racist for a law abiding US citizen to be upset that they are in blatant violation of our laws and feel they should be expected to adhere to them?

[MasterKiller]

Mexico's immigration policy:

Mexico welcomes only foreigners who will be useful to Mexican society:

Foreigners are admitted into Mexico "according to their possibilities of contributing to national progress." (Article 32)
Immigration officials must "ensure" that "immigrants will be useful elements for the country and that they have the necessary funds for their sustenance" and for their dependents. (Article 34)
Foreigners may be barred from the country if their presence upsets "the equilibrium of the national demographics," when foreigners are deemed detrimental to "economic or national interests," when they do not behave like good citizens in their own country, when they have broken Mexican laws, and when "they are not found to be physically or mentally healthy." (Article 37)
The Secretary of Governance may "suspend or prohibit the admission of foreigners when he determines it to be in the national interest." (Article 38)
Mexican authorities must keep track of every single person in the country:

Federal, local and municipal police must cooperate with federal immigration authorities upon request, i.e., to assist in the arrests of illegal immigrants. (Article 73)
A National Population Registry keeps track of "every single individual who comprises the population of the country," and verifies each individual's identity. (Articles 85 and 86)

A national Catalog of Foreigners tracks foreign tourists and immigrants (Article 87), and assigns each individual with a unique tracking number (Article 91).

Foreigners with fake papers, or who enter the country under false pretenses, may be imprisoned:

Foreigners with fake immigration papers may be fined or imprisoned. (Article 116)
Foreigners who sign government documents "with a signature that is false or different from that which he normally uses" are subject to fine and imprisonment. (Article 116)
Foreigners who fail to obey the rules will be fined, deported, and/or imprisoned as felons:

Foreigners who fail to obey a deportation order are to be punished. (Article 117)
Foreigners who are deported from Mexico and attempt to re-enter the country without authorization can be imprisoned for up to 10 years. (Article 118)
Foreigners who violate the terms of their visa may be sentenced to up to six years in prison (Articles 119, 120 and 121). Foreigners who misrepresent the terms of their visa while in Mexico -- such as working with out a permit -- can also be imprisoned.

Under Mexican law, illegal immigration is a felony. The General Law on Population says,

"A penalty of up to two years in prison and a fine of three hundred to five thousand pesos will be imposed on the foreigner who enters the country illegally." (Article 123)
Foreigners with legal immigration problems may be deported from Mexico instead of being imprisoned. (Article 125)
Foreigners who "attempt against national sovereignty or security" will be deported. (Article 126)
Mexicans who help illegal aliens enter the country are themselves considered criminals under the law:

A Mexican who marries a foreigner with the sole objective of helping the foreigner live in the country is subject to up to five years in prison. (Article 127)
Shipping and airline companies that bring undocumented foreigners into Mexico will be fined. (Article 132)

[Ultimatewingchun]

Is it ok for 12 million Mexicans to just move here in violation of US immigration law?

Is it Racist for a law abiding US citizen to be upset that they are in blatant violation of our laws and feel they should be expected to adhere to them?


1) It's not ok.


2) It's not rascist.


ENOUGH SAID.

[Black Jack II]

Don't get me started on the ****hole that is mexico and border patrol.

[doug maverick]

well lets see who is going to do all the work they do for the price they do it at. not me and certainly not you. america has been open door for years everyone use to come here and very few ever became legal citizens. your probably decended from immigrants. i can personally trace my family history back 400 years here in the united states and even longer if i go through my mother side of the family. how many people can say that? not many your a hater RD. i never thought i'd say that about you. you always seemed like a nice guy. but you gu=ot some hate in your blood about mexicans who knows why.

[yutyeesam]

None of this is okay, but at the same time, it is only happening because our border security is not as tight as it should be, and many businesses reinforce and reward this behavior by employing them. Heck, some go as far as to get people across the border illegally themselves.

So Mexicans are not the sole bearer of responsibility for this phenomenon. Although not legal, they only come here because WE let them and WE Americans give them jobs.

That said, I too am not happy that so many things have to be in Spanish. You're here - learn English.

-123

[Ultimatewingchun]

The A_ _ hole is Bush and all his ultra wealthy corporate friends who have bought and paid for various politicians, legislators, media, think tanks, and judges. (And of course D i c k Cheney - let's not forget about Mr. Halliburton).

They don't want to pay American workers decent wages/benefits to do manual labor jobs that poor Mexicans are willing to do for peanuts.

Bush and company could stop the flow of illegal immigrants tomorrow if they really wanted to.

But we now live in a CORPORATE SOCIALIST state.

The neo-con government is primarily owned by, controlled by, and serves certain Giant corporate interests (ie.- ultra wealthy individuals behind and within those corporations).

Where's Teddy Roosevelt when you really need him? :eek: :rolleyes: :mad:

[Mas Judt]

Yet if we used their laws we would be derided as racists.

I've done business in Mexico. I love the people (conditionally, like anywhere) but the place is a sh!thole due to the endemic corruption that is simply part of the culture. I suggest everyone visit there and experience it first hand, because that will be the Us too in about 10 years.

Schoolkids in Mexico are taught the USA stole their land and is an evil empire.

The USM government assists and encourages illegal migration to the US. Editorials in newspapers discuss how they are going to regain the land we stole silently. Both of our elites discuss future unification. - which if it wasn't for the drastic cultural differences - especially in regards to business - I'd actually be open too - but somehow I think we'd negotiate ourselves a bad deal.

For that matter Vicente' Fox declared anywhere Mexicans live is part of Mexico.

It is absurd, and no Mexican I know would approve of this if the situation was reveresed. Most of the educated Mexicans I know think we deserve it because of our idiotic social acceptance of Narcotics driving criminal behavior.

They worry that civil rights are being curtailed because the Mexican Army is forced to take action against the drug dealers because only the army is seen as incorruptable - why? Because the army has the death penalty for corruption.

Our large and small companies fuel the illegal wave as they become cheap labor, offsetting all the higher costs USA companies face due to government regulation and taxes.

We are just as at fault as Mexico. And if I was Mexican. I would come here. While I do not approve, I cannot deny being sympathetic to people brave enough to take these risks just to get a better life.

We also forget that we have Mexican nationals who join the US military. One of Uncle Bill's top guys is from the Guadalajara school - and is a Mexican national/US Army Ranger. Some of these people want to be away from the corruption and WANT to be here.

Obviously, I am conflicted. But the unregulated flow of people must stop.

[doug maverick]

now something you guys are saying i do agree upon. but lets face it there are alot of jobs that mexicans do that americans just won't do. but blue collar jobs like construction and others, should be for legal citizens. or at least someone who is trying to become legal. another thing is the language thing which i hate to agree with but its true your in america learn the language. but at the same time. we got to understand that these people just want a better life for their families just like anybody else. their not terroist their not trying to destroy america and in fact they contribute to its growth.

[Black Jack II]

well lets see who is going to do all the work they do for the price they do it at. not me and certainly not you.

I love when people throw this one out.:rolleyes:

Prior to 1965 when the Immigration Bill was passed, a totally disastrous bill mind you, there was very little immigration. In specific between the early 1920's and the early 1960's there was an almost net emigration out of the United States. During this time, our grass was getting cut, our meat was getting packed, our children being watched and our houses were getting cleaned, warehouses were worked and snow was shoveled.

Your ideal that we suddenly can't run a country without an unlimited supply of foreigners is way off the marker.

People in favor of foreign labor are most often corporations who are addicted to the cheap labor. These corporations are the ones benefiting, but the benefit comes at the American tax payer's expense when you total up the fact that the American tax payer is subsidizing the labor costs of these corporations by supplying these illegal criminals, and their families with welfare, free education, free medical care, housing assistance, and all the other nice jazz the liberals like to push out, jazz these same corporations won't do.

Americans will do the work that illegal criminals do for a fair compensation and benefits, we just won't allow ourselves to be exploited like they do.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

but you gu=ot some hate in your blood about mexicans who knows why.

Reply]
Which is exactly why I have friends and business partners that are Mexican right? :rolleyes:

I think you are a moron...I bet you vote Democratic.

[yutyeesam]

So the question is, why aren't these corporations being held accountable?

[doug maverick]

but you gu=ot some hate in your blood about mexicans who knows why.

Reply]
Which is exactly why I have friends and business partners that are Mexican right? :rolleyes:

I think you are a moron...I bet you vote Democratic.
actually i'm an independant so your wrong on that part. every kkk member says they had a black man over there house. so don;t tell me you have mexican friends i wonder what they would think of you bashing them behind there backs.
and i've voted both republican and democratic. actually the first time i voted was for the current mayor of new york bloomberg who was a republican at the time.
what i'm saying to you and the resaon why i'm riding you so much is this. WHAT THE **** DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH KUNG FU. THIS IS A KUNG FU MESSAGE BAORD THIS SOME OL' BULL**** YOU BRINGING YOUR PERSONAL PROPLEMS THAT HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH WHAT THIS BOARD IS ABOUT. FIRST THE THING ABOUT YOU LOOKING FOR A GIRLFRIEND NOW THIS. I THINK YOU NEED A SHRINK TO TALK OUT YOUR PROBLEMS WITH. YOU HAVE A PROPLEM WITH THESE MEXICANS WHO PROBABLY WERE AFRAID OF GETTING YELLED AT OR FIRED SO THEY DIDN;T SAY HEY BOSS THERE IS NO ****ING GRASS TO CUT. SO THEY JUST DO WHAT THE IDIOT WANTS. YOU AS A TENANT SHOULD HAVE SAID SOMETHING TO THE LANDLORD INSTEAD OF COMING ON HERE *****ING LIKE A LITTLE PUNK. YOUR TO OLD FOR THAT MAN.

[Black Jack II]

but at the same time. we got to understand that these people just want a better life for their families just like anybody else

Wrong.

You have NO way of knowing if a specific Illegal aliens has a good work ethic. Bad and good people make up any bunch, but lets stop the romantic bs.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"So the question is, why aren't these corporations being held accountable?"


***Because they own and control the government, the military, the C.I.A., the Border Patrol, etc.

And it will continue to be like this until enough people wake up, smell the coffee, and decide that they've had enough.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

now something you guys are saying i do agree upon. but lets face it there are alot of jobs that mexicans do that americans just won't do


Reply]
Before 1995, Americans had no problem doing those jobs, why is it suddenly after 12 million Mexicans enter is it that we can't? Maybe because the illegals have those jobs and they are not available to us anymore.

[doug maverick]

because american are lazy as ****

[doug maverick]

What The **** Does This Have To Do With Kung Fu. This Is A Kung Fu Message Baord This Some Ol' Bull**** You Bringing Your Personal Proplems That Have Nothing To Do With What This Board Is About. First The Thing About You Looking For A Girlfriend Now This. I Think You Need A Shrink To Talk Out Your Problems With. You Have A Proplem With These Mexicans Who Probably Were Afraid Of Getting Yelled At Or Fired So They Didn;t Say Hey Boss There Is No ****ing Grass To Cut. So They Just Do What The Idiot Wants. You As A Tenant Should Have Said Something To The Landlord Instead Of Coming On Here *****ing Like A Little Punk. Your To Old For That Man.

[Black Jack II]

because american are lazy as ****

Not even close. You can not have the type of success this nation has had with the word lazy tied to it.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Why are you typing all in title?

What thing about me looking for a girlfriend? I don't look for them, they find me. I have never made a thread about looking for a girlfriend ever. I have posted some of my disastrous experiences going through break ups, and problems with women I had, but I never posted about looking for one. Where are you getting this nonsense?

[doug maverick]

Not even close. You can not have the type of success this nation has had with the word lazy tied to it.

dude over the last 15 years america has become lazy. that why were are not the leaders of the world no more. why we are being over shadowed by countries like china. why the canadian dollar is stronger then the american.

[doug maverick]

Why are you typing all in title?

What thing about me looking for a girlfriend? I don't look for them, they find me. I have never made a thread about looking for a girlfriend ever. I have posted some of my disastrous experiences going through break ups, and problems with women I had, but I never posted about looking for one. Where are you getting this nonsense?

dude your telling me you never posted a thread saying you needed to find a girlfriend and didn;t ask people here for advice. come on you telling me that didn;t happan RD.

[hskwarrior]

Please forgive me, i just want to ask a simple question.

you said this...."Which is exactly why I have friends and business partners that are Mexican right?"

If your Mexican "friends, and Business partners" new this is how you felt about their people, do you think they'd still be your friends and business partners?

What are their opinions on your beliefs?

And, is there anything more to your being upset about Mexicans (do you even know if they're from mexico, they could be from honduras, guatamalan, el salvadorean...etc.) than just them cutting rotted old grass?

See, this topic hits home since i was raised in a latino neighborhood, my girl is mexican, and yes many of my friends are LATINO, not just mexican.

[yutyeesam]

"So the question is, why aren't these corporations being held accountable?"


***Because they own and control the government, the military, the C.I.A., the Border Patrol, etc.

And it will continue to be like this until enough people wake up, smell the coffee, and decide that they've had enough.

Well said. I bet if Al Qaeda decided to base operations in Mexico and cross our borders to plot terrorist attacks, we as a country would have a different mindset to this issue.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

dude your telling me you never posted a thread saying you needed to find a girlfriend and didn;t ask people here for advice. come on you telling me that didn;t happan RD

Reply]
No, never. I have no problem getting women. All my Women threads have been centered around break ups or other existing relationships going bad. Search my Royal Dragon profile if you doubt me.

If your Mexican "friends, and Business partners" new this is how you felt about their people, do you think they'd still be your friends and business partners?

Reply]
They all went through the process of entering the US legally, learned English, Memorized the constitution etc... They hold the same views on illegals as I do. And they are more angry at them than I am. The influx of cheap labor from illegals take THIER jobs too.

[Black Jack II]

dude over the last 15 years america has become lazy. that why were are not the leaders of the world no more.

Wrong again. This is going to be hard when I don't find your statements valid. As for the leaders of the world, if you live here, you sit at the peak kid, even if you choose to hate yourself because your proffessor told you to do so.

[Mas Judt]

dude over the last 15 years america has become lazy. that why were are not the leaders of the world no more. why we are being over shadowed by countries like china. why the canadian dollar is stronger then the american.

Doug, let me make a guess. Your life isn't what you think it should be. You know it is somebody else's fault - the 'gubmint', 'the man', your boss, girlfriend (if you have one), whatever. You can't imagine it might be you, because you know you are better and smarter than everyone else.

You see, you just demonstrated that you are a dumbsh!t.

Here is some help:

"dude over the last 15 years america has become lazy. "

Can you cite some facts to back up this statement? I doubt it.

"that why were are not the leaders of the world no more. "

Wrong again. But perhaps it was yourself you were talking about as being lazy, as your grasp of English is substandard.

"why we are being over shadowed by countries like china. "
Really. I hadn't noticed. We are still the worlds dominant economy and military force by far. Others are doing good. We've made some mistakes, but overshadowed? Not yet.

"why the canadian dollar is stronger then the american."

Because Americans are lazy the US dollar has fallen against the Canadian? Hello? Is anyone home? It has a lot more to do with the government choosing to export paper money over maintaining an industrial economy. Why do the hard work when you can just print paper money and let others do it for you at a cut rate. Besides, the current drop is almost certainly on purpose, as it A.) allows us to bring some manufacturing back and B.) aligns us better with Mexico. A & B are suppositions on my part.

Dude, you need to take a deep breath, and consider getting your GED.

[doug maverick]

Wrong again. This is going to be hard when I don't find your statements valid. As for the leaders of the world, if you live here, you sit at the peak kid, even if you choose to hate yourself because your proffessor told you to do so.

i don;t hate myself and i love being american my father fought for me to be an american my grandfather and his father fought for me to be an american. my great great great grand parents got whipped for me to be an american. i'm stating the truth, the us dollar is weaker then the candian dollar right now. we have a government thats to precocupied with a failed war then in building the nation. imagine if all that money bushed wasted in iraq was spent on the country, we wouldn't be in this sorry as state of affairs we're in now. Even staunch replublicans like john mcain(who in my opinion is one of the very few people fit to run this country) have open their eyes to this. we are weak as a nation and soft. other countries that shopuld be behind us are lapping us, we are not spending money where it needs to be, america has the chance to once again to lead the world in everything. stem cell researsh alternative fuel sources we have the technology for this. but our government would rather spend money futilly on a futile war. now before anybody says anything know this i have many family members and friendswho are currently involved in this war both in the field and on the home front. all are various race's and all agree,that the bush adminstration has no answer for this war. and i condemn every candidate(including mr.mcain) who says they have an answer for stoping the war but are not offering it up so they can hold on to hopes of winning this election. the only thing we manage to accomplish in this war was to make al queda stronger nothing more. **** even if the war was for oil i could understand that where the **** is the oil people are payign 4 bucks a gallon now even more some places. people who don;t have money have to depend on venzuala to get oil. this **** is sickening and you telling america is not lazy america is not weak. go screw yourself in a$$ open your eyes budddy. stop being such a hick and beleive that everything your told is right.

[Mas Judt]

Doug,
have you checked out www.Ronpaul2008.com?

[Water Dragon]

lot of b.s. on this thread. I honestly don't think anyone on this thread understands the illegal immigrant community in this country, or how they operate. I doubt anyone really cares either. People love their pre-conceived notions and their scapegoats. Gotta blame the realities of life on somebody after all.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Why don't you enlighten us then?

[Mas Judt]

lot of b.s. on this thread. I honestly don't think anyone on this thread understands the illegal immigrant community in this country, or how they operate. I doubt anyone really cares either. People love their pre-conceived notions and their scapegoats. Gotta blame the realities of life on somebody after all.

Sorry buddy, but the above is total BS. Please prove your point.

[bodhitree]

lot of b.s. on this thread. I honestly don't think anyone on this thread understands the illegal immigrant community in this country, or how they operate. I doubt anyone really cares either. People love their pre-conceived notions and their scapegoats. Gotta blame the realities of life on somebody after all.


Amen. Most of the people who complain about immigrants "taking their jobs" don't even work in sectors where illegals are employed.

Oh, and I bet if it was an illegal Chinese Kung Fu master nobody would have a problem:rolleyes:

Immigration creates problems in a lot of places in the world. This country was built on immigration, some of it is illegal. Most illegals don't have access to the means of entering the country legally.

For anyone interested in the topic from the perspective of an illegal I suggest the book Enrique's Journey. It's very good and gives you a glance at the decision making process. Most of the time illegals come here in search of economic opportunities and an escape from poverty, or to send money back to their country to fund their childrens' education.

I certainly feel some people have an ax to grind, and illegals are a good target. Oh, and there is a difference between racism and xenophobia. Both are prejudice and can lead to discrimination. Mexican people are an easy target for those who want something to complain about.

[Mas Judt]

Please read my earlier posts.

Regardless, illegal immigration needs to be controlled. And Mexico, which has no excuse for being such a wreck, needs to get their act together.

There are significant problems created by uncontrolled migration of people. Let's get some control over this so people can't be abused like illegal migrants are.

Every other country in the world requires an immigrant to be capable of taking care of themselves and offer some skill or education of use to the country.

Except the US. We are bad, evil and racist if we ask for the same standard as everybody else.

[doug maverick]

Doug, let me make a guess. Your life isn't what you think it should be. You know it is somebody else's fault - the 'gubmint', 'the man', your boss, girlfriend (if you have one), whatever. You can't imagine it might be you, because you know you are better and smarter than everyone else.

You see, you just demonstrated that you are a dumbsh!t.

Here is some help:

"dude over the last 15 years america has become lazy. "

Can you cite some facts to back up this statement? I doubt it.

"that why were are not the leaders of the world no more. "

Wrong again. But perhaps it was yourself you were talking about as being lazy, as your grasp of English is substandard.

"why we are being over shadowed by countries like china. "
Really. I hadn't noticed. We are still the worlds dominant economy and military force by far. Others are doing good. We've made some mistakes, but overshadowed? Not yet.

"why the canadian dollar is stronger then the american."

Because Americans are lazy the US dollar has fallen against the Canadian? Hello? Is anyone home? It has a lot more to do with the government choosing to export paper money over maintaining an industrial economy. Why do the hard work when you can just print paper money and let others do it for you at a cut rate. Besides, the current drop is almost certainly on purpose, as it A.) allows us to bring some manufacturing back and B.) aligns us better with Mexico. A & B are suppositions on my part.

Dude, you need to take a deep breath, and consider getting your GED.

hmmm! lets graduated high school went to film school. started sucessful film company. nope my life is exactly what it should be.

[Mas Judt]

Doug - Then you don't sound like you are lazy. Where are the lazy Americans? And dude, you are possibly one of the worst communicators I've ever seen, and you work in communications! Should I chalk it down to being rushed because you are so busy?

What's the name of your company?

----

Oh, and the old saw about Americans not wanting the jobs - sure at below minimum wage. Remember the Hormel factory that was raided by immigration? Citizens were lined up around the block applying for the jobs.

[doug maverick]

Doug - Then you don't sound like you are lazy. Where are the lazy Americans? And dude, you are possibly one of the worst communicators I've ever seen, and you work in communications! Should I chalk it down to being rushed because you are so busy?

What's the name of your company?

----

Oh, and the old saw about Americans not wanting the jobs - sure at below minimum wage. Remember the Hormel factory that was raided by immigration? Citizens were lined up around the block applying for the jobs.

oh yeah ofcourse americans would take the jobs at the right wages. but what i'm saying is that. we wouldn't take those jobs at the wages that the immigrants take them. and yes i am rushing because i'm busy. also i work in film which is a form of communication but not exactly communications if you know what i mean.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

If the *illegal* immigrants were not there, then Americans would just take those jobs. If the wages need to be increased to get them, then they will do that.

Everyone allways complains about the rich greedy corporations. Has it not cross your mind that they are reaping excessive rewards by employing Illegals and thus sucking more extreme amounts of profit than they should, or could if they did not have that option?

So they are getting richer by keeping payrole money that *Used* to go to American workers. The American worker is not working, and some Illegal is taking his place and further enriching the evil corporate CEO.

[doug maverick]

If the *illegal* immigrants were not there, then Americans would just take those jobs. If the wages need to be increased to get them, then they will do that.

Everyone allways complains about the rich greedy corporations. Has it not cross your mind that they are reaping excessive rewards by employing Illegals and thus sucking more extreme amounts of profit than they should, or could if they did not have that option?

So they are getting richer by keeping payrole money that *Used* to go to American workers. The American worker is not working, and some Illegal is taking his place and further enriching the evil corporate CEO.

hmm.. the question is can the corperations afford those wages. is not as simple as we all think. a company may make half billion dollars till a billion dollars a year but how much of that is revenue takes alot to run a company. i have friends who run investment firms, that invest and lend money to large companies and the main topic they talk about is pentions. pentions take up alot of money about 25% of a large companies revenue. then the investors make there money and so on.

what the government needs to do is initiate some type of tax break for companies that hire legal americans and don't out source. just like they give companies who save energy tax breaks.now will those companies take those incentives.

[Mas Judt]

Doug,
you are starting to smack down the correct on some of the issues. BUT - there is still extreme downward pressure on jobs that can pay good wages. Some no longer do because of the downward pressure caused by the the illegals.

If we need the workers, let's invite them in. But let's do it properly, not in a way that exploits the workers and degrades the quality of life in our country. Let's also encourage people speaking English and becoming Americans. It can only produce positive results.

Hey - what is the name of your company? What kind of film work do you do?

[doug maverick]

i have two production comapnies one called A better tomorrow films inc. that mostly specializes in comemrcial and the like. and the other is called Under The Gun LLC, which is a film production company we just finished our first feature film you can check it out here (http://youtube.com/watch?v=t8FOIe6N-rU) and are currently writing and preparing to shoot the second in may. a better tomorrow is shooting a public service anouncment for the A.S.P.C.A.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

hmm.. the question is can the corperations afford those wages

Reply]
They afforded them just fine back in 1995...before 12 million illegals came here.

[doug maverick]

the economy was defferent in 95 hell the economy was defferent in 2000. the influx of illegal mexicans have nothing to do with with the downward spiral of the american economy. defaulting mortgages, rising oil prices and a war is the cause of our current state of affairs the next president has a horrible mess to clean up. i don;t know why the american people would elect a failed man to be a president(if in fact they did) but they they did. we only have ourselves to blame for the G.W. bush. lets make a stand against the religious right who will destroy the freedoms of this country.

[D-FENS]

You know what's ****ed up? I could be facing a $250 fine for being on the bus illegally (I had lost my ticket), but at the same time the legal system turns a blind eye to people who are in the COUNTRY illegally and with the combined cost of free health care (which I myself don't qualify for) and educations for their multiple anchor babies cost taxpayers billions annually.

IMO if you are going to enforce a law at the lowest level, you should have the integrity to enforce it at the highest (federal) as well.


[/rant]

[doug maverick]

You know what's ****ed up? I could be facing a $250 fine for being on the bus illegally (I had lost my ticket), but at the same time the legal system turns a blind eye to people who are in the COUNTRY illegally and with the combined cost of free health care (which I myself don't qualify for) and educations for their multiple anchor babies cost taxpayers billions annually.

IMO if you are going to enforce a law at the lowest level, you should have the integrity to enforce it at the highest (federal) as well.


[/rant]

Free healthcare? in america? where? the rising cost of health care is another reason we are in this state.
but your right that **** sucks about you getting the fine

[Water Dragon]

If the *illegal* immigrants were not there, then Americans would just take those jobs. If the wages need to be increased to get them, then they will do that.

Everyone allways complains about the rich greedy corporations. Has it not cross your mind that they are reaping excessive rewards by employing Illegals and thus sucking more extreme amounts of profit than they should, or could if they did not have that option?

So they are getting richer by keeping payrole money that *Used* to go to American workers. The American worker is not working, and some Illegal is taking his place and further enriching the evil corporate CEO.


Yes, because we all want to be paying $ 12.99 for a value meal at McDonalds. C'mon, Bro. Just the other day you were complaining about some poor Schmucks trying to mow grass in the snow. You want that desirable gig for yourself?

I was married to the daughter of illegal immigrants for 9 years, people always came to me with their problems because I was white, spoke Spanish, and was 'familia'. For a while, I had to work in a meat packing plant on Roosevelt with some mojos. We were working 15 hour days, 6 days a week hauling hundred pound slabs of beef in a giant freezer. You want that good job too? Or should we up the wages and be paying $ 6 a pound for hamburger?

As far as the 'they suck up tax money' argument, ain't true. Everything this community does is under the radar. They get sick, they work out a payment plan with a local Dr. in the hood and they pay cash. That's the reality.

I have a lot of trouble arguing against freee immigration because that's what this country is founded on. That's how I got here and that's how you got here too. It's what makes us different. This country has always been a land of opportunity, it should continue to be so.

And I got connects, so if you want to wash dishes, pack meat, or clean up public washrooms for minimum wage, I'll be glad to hook you up.

[D-FENS]

Free healthcare? in america? where? the rising cost of health care is another reason we are in this state.


Nowhere, if you're a taxpaying citizen. However, I live in L.A., and there are free medical and pregnancy clinics on just about every block. Guess who foots the bill for those.

And you're right, healthcare IS expensive. I'm tempted to go to Mexico and sneak back in just so I can get some too. :p

[doug maverick]

don't mind my taxes going into free clinics. actually alot of those clinics get their money from the private sector. i understand that not everyone can afford healthcare. and i rather my money go there and to education so that the next generation can figure out that quagmire then to waste my tax money on an endless war. thats reaping no benefits.

[Mas Judt]

WD,
I have to weigh your personal experience against a veritable ton of statistics. The statistics say you are incorrect. In Texas, you have hospitals closing due to the unpaid care of illegals. (I think Houston sent a bill to Mexico. Who of course treated it like an insult). You have states handing out free college tuition to illegals (one of the reasons I left California, the government there is f@cked, despite Arnold) while kids whose parents paid into the system can't get in now.

And immigration was never 'free' since the country was formally organized. When my father immigrated he had to prove he would not be a burden on society or even borrow money! Today legal immigrants get handouts and illegals get better deals than the citizens.

It is a real problem. I'm totally pro-immigration - but lets get the people we need, properly vetted, and not just someone trying to win the third world lotto.

You are only looking at a very small snapshot, you are not seeing the larger picture.

[Mas Judt]

Also, I would point out that your POV encourages the exploitation of these people.

[Mas Judt]

i have two production comapnies one called A better tomorrow films inc. that mostly specializes in comemrcial and the like. and the other is called Under The Gun LLC, which is a film production company we just finished our first feature film you can check it out here and are currently writing and preparing to shoot the second in may. a better tomorrow is shooting a public service anouncment for the A.S.P.C.A.

Cool, cool. I just got rid of my agency, and will be announcing a feature project shortly. Good luck, man.

[Black Jack II]

I totally call bull****....what your saying is another one of those "just accept this as truth" cliches

Illegal aliens do not benefit the economy on any scale which deserves the romantic notion it is granted.

Most illegal aliens do NOT receive a typical paychecj with tax deductions, which means they are paid in cash and do not pay taxes. Even when they do pay taxes, which btw is ONLY possible if they use fraudulent social security numbers or government assigned ID tax numbers, their very small income is not eve close enough to pay for the vast medical expenses and all the expenses for all the children they give birth to.

In the L.A. county hospital alone, there are illegal immigrant women having thousands of children per year free of f@ckin charge, people who can not afford them once they give birth and that does not stop them from having even more children as most learn to work the system so that they can receive cash assistance programs.

Try to understand a simple principle in economics, the more people that assimilate into a system the better, but its only better if it creates a LARGER tax base. The evidence shows that the net results that are illegal immigrants cost the taxpayer significantly more than they ever pay in taxes.

Illegals are directly responsible for their crimes. Blaming the entire problem on employers or society or education for illegal immigration is lake blaming a women for her own rape because she dressed to sexy and the rapist could not resist her.

Let's not even start on the crime, disease, and value system some bring into the country.

Sorry, I am for serious border control. The facts speak a lot different than a bleeding heart.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

WD I doubt Burgers would be $6.00. We got along just fine before the 12 million Illegals came here. Prices for everything was much cheaper back then too.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Sorry, I am for serious border control. The facts speak a lot different than a bleeding heart.

Reply]
I used to be for serious boarder controll at one time too. Now however I am more in favor of a military takeover of Mexico. If I am not mistaken, they have lots of Oil right?

Lets take them over, set them up either as a territory, or break it up into several full states and start collecting taxes from them. The way things are going, it's only a matter of time before we have to burden the majority of thier population anyway, we might as well get the natural resources as well.

[doug maverick]

Sorry, I am for serious border control. The facts speak a lot different than a bleeding heart.

Reply]
I used to be for serious boarder controll at one time too. Now however I am more in favor of a military takeover of Mexico. If I am not mistaken, they have lots of Oil right?

Lets take them over, set them up either as a territory, or break it up into several full states and start collecting taxes from them. The way things are going, it's only a matter of time before we have to burden the majority of thier population anyway, we might as well get the natural resources as well.

your joking right?

[Sicilian Tofu M]

Oklahoma Taxpayer and Citizen Protection Act of 2007 every state needs one

http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/paperchase/2007/05/oklahoma-governor-signs-immigration.php

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

No, I am not. We are absorbing thier entire population anyway, we should get the land too.

There is going to be NO end to the invasion of illegal immigrants. It's not going to stop. If we just wait untill thier population dwindles a little more, a military take over will be easy, probably bloodless and it would help compensate us for taking responsibility for THIER people. If the Mexican government is refusing to run thier country responsibly, and we are left caring for thier people because they refuse to, we should get thier land too. It's only fair.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

In other simpler words, if the Mexican government cares so little for thier people that the entire Mexican nation must come here seeking the help and opportunities of the USA, if we have to do MEXICO'S Job, then we should get Mexico's land...period at the end!

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Are you guys even comprehending the SCALE of what has happened? in 10 short years, 12 MILLION Mexicans have come here. That is like taking the ENTIRE city of Chicago, AND New York, combining them and STILL being a million people short.

I am 39, I remember what it was like before they all came. You had to go into Humble Park, or maybe out to Aurora to find Mexicans. They were in rather distinct areas and were a minority. NOW, there is no place you can go where there are not Mexicans to be found. The entire flavor of the US has changed in just 10 short years.

If this keeps up, American citizens are going to be the minority, and our taxes will be supporting an entire NATION that just up and moved into our boarders to sponge off of us and take OUR opportunities.

It not going to be long before the only place where you can't find any Mexicans will be Mexico itself.

I think taking all thier land in a military takeover is fair compensation. The people of Mexico would surly welcome this anyway.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Oh Yes, now I am REALLY in favor of a military takeover of Mexico!!

http://www.limitstogrowth.org/WEB-text/aztlan.html

[Yum Cha]

Man! The ignorance if flying low and thick on this thread, and thats just the comments periperial to the topic itself.

Exchange rates have nothing to do with national pride or economic might, they have to do with speculation, demand for currency, i.e. interest rates and straight out market forces.

US interest rates are going low, money shifts to higher return investments.

Put an end to illeagal aliens tomorrow by making their wages non tax deductable. OOPS! That means businesses suffer, no can do mate. Texas is illeagal heaven, and where does Bush come from?

Lazy has nothing to do with it. Profitability does.

The US did steal a big hunk of Mexico, you call it the mexican cession. The US Helped Texas get its independence, and since they couldn't annex Texas (right away) they grabbed a big hunk of Mexico instead. Sux to lose a war. It belonged to the Inca and Aztec anyhow...

You know the old saying about the chickens coming home to roost, well looks like them's Mexican chickens. Xenophobia isn't the answer, enlightened government is. Oh well, maybe after the election... :D:D:D

[doug maverick]

Oh Yes, now I am REALLY in favor of a military takeover of Mexico!!

http://www.limitstogrowth.org/WEB-text/aztlan.html

your insane RD you really need to get some help with your mexiphobia

[Water Dragon]

Bleeding Heart, huh? Don't throw insults at me because I have an opinion that's different than yours, Black Jack. It speaks to a lack of intelligence.

[Black Jack II]

Water,

It was not stated as a insult, not directly on my part anyway, and was not intended as so. It's just a term I used to describe the "aura" of the conversation in general.

By bleeding heart, in this case, I reference using an emotional context to talk about what is at hand. The same I guess could be said of me, but turned around in some fashion, as I am vibrant about the topic same as you.

I just don't find some of what your saying as valid to my own worldview system.

[doug maverick]

why are we discussing the same thing on two defferent threads.some lazy ass mods up here on the main board:D

[Wildwoo]

Why don't you enlighten us then?

Why don't you just yell n i g g e r or w e t back and get it over with. Really.

What are these people taking from you? This is a big country with a massive infrastructure and there is room for everyone, anyone. You won't be the one to cut grass, bus dishes, pick fruit, clean house, nanny babies for tiny bits of money.

Mind your business, practice your Fu.

Peace

[doug maverick]

Why don't you just yell n i g g e r or w e t back and get it over with. Really.

What are these people taking from you? This is a big country with a massive infrastructure and there is room for everyone, anyone. You won't be the one to cut grass, bus dishes, pick fruit, clean house, nanny babies for tiny bits of money.

Mind your business, practice your Fu.

Peace

don;t worry about RD he's got ants in his pants or something.

[ittokaos]

Well I think that it is time for an actual mexican(american) to get involved in the conversation. I just love how everyone here can speak as if they know because they know someone of hispainc heritage that has an opinion. For those out ther who lived it and were actually right there beside the ones who lived it, thank you. Without you helping pave the road I wouldnt have been born.

If you just want to complain about how mexicans stole american jobs then fine but dont act like americans had nothing to do with the way the country works. They are providing the jobs to those that will take what they can get at wages that no prideful american would want to work for. If you want someone to blame then blame the industries that enable these type of actions.

I have not once heard a valid answer as to why illegals shouldnt be accepted into this country. I have heard a lot of americans with a biased opinion of things but not yet a really good answer. The aussies are more informed than the majority of americans on this issue(BAk MEi forever). I understand that order must be had in order to make us seem as if we are in control of our borders but what happened to those words on which our immagration stance was founded upon(basically)?

"Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
"Keep ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

Does that not apply to mexicans too?

If anything we were here first. All of you from Germany, Ireland, England, Russia, Etc... came later but we were always here. Read up on your history and you will find out that the majority of hipanics originated from Native Americans. We happened when the spanish came down with guns and raped the women. They left and came back later but we were still here. I dont see any of us getting any money that the Native Americans get. I dont see any of us getting Ceser Chavez day off. We get horrible wages for hard labor that the majority of americans think that they are above and now you are trying to take that too. Just like the way the land was taken.

I dont think that anyone should abuse the legal system to get what they need but these people do it to get a better chance at living so I say leave them alone.

As for mexicans having the same work ethic as an average american: hahahah. Have you ever spoken to the next generation? I dont think that you have or else you wouldnt be trying to defend them. True, there are those that still have a tradtional work ethic but those people are a dying breed. You can bring up how people used to cut their own grass but you have to take into consideration the work ethic of those individuals. The modern day american is a lazy whiner that doesnt believe in working for anything. They dont want to try because it is too hard so instead they cry and pass the buck instead of taking reasponsiblity for themselves. I work for the cable company(I do compliants and the like) so I hear it all day long.

I too am lazy in comparrison to my dad. I find that the majority of hispanics who have lived in america for a good deal of time become lazy too. Its a (american)cultural thing unfortunately. Trust me, an average mexican(in a bad part of mexico) is subjected to large cases of poverty and crime froma young age.

My dad had to support his brother and himself from the age of 12 because there was no room in the house for them and my grandma was almost 60 when she had my uncle. He left mexico and took his work ethic with him. He doesnt believe in something for nothing. My uncle on the other hand never worked until they came over here and he is now an extremely lazy and corrupt man.

He is family and I love him but hey he is. From this I originally came to my conclusion that america support a lazy society. It wasnt until later that I was constantly proven right. This is the only thing that I can talk about: my experiences with those who came over here illegally. I cant recite stats and give you a bunch of stuff that I know nothing about but I can give you honesty.


I am an american born and raised. I love this insane country because of the values and ideas it was built upon. I love how we can complain about how someone stole our jobs while we are just sitting on our @$$e$ drinking and watching UFC and scratching ourselves. What I dont love is people who think that america would be better off without immagrants.

I said my piece and I hope ths helps,

WF

[ittokaos]

Well I think that it is time for an actual mexican(american) to get involved in the conversation. I just love how everyone here can speak as if they know because they know someone of hispainc heritage that has an opinion. For those out ther who lived it and were actually right there beside the ones who lived it, thank you. Without you helping pave the road I wouldnt have been born.

If you just want to complain about how mexicans stole american jobs then fine but dont act like americans had nothing to do with the way the country works. They are providing the jobs to those that will take what they can get at wages that no prideful american would want to work for. If you want someone to blame then blame the industries that enable these type of actions.

I have not once heard a valid answer as to why illegals shouldnt be accepted into this country. I have heard a lot of americans with a biased opinion of things but not yet a really good answer. The aussies are more informed than the majority of americans on this issue(BAk MEi forever). I understand that order must be had in order to make us seem as if we are in control of our borders but what happened to those words on which our immagration stance was founded upon(basically)?

"Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
"Keep ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

Does that not apply to mexicans too?

If anything we were here first. All of you from Germany, Ireland, England, Russia, Etc... came later but we were always here. Read up on your history and you will find out that the majority of hipanics originated from Native Americans. We happened when the spanish came down with guns and raped the women. They left and came back later but we were still here. I dont see any of us getting any money that the Native Americans get. I dont see any of us getting Ceser Chavez day off. We get horrible wages for hard labor that the majority of americans think that they are above and now you are trying to take that too. Just like the way the land was taken.

I dont think that anyone should abuse the legal system to get what they need but these people do it to get a better chance at living so I say leave them alone.

As for mexicans having the same work ethic as an average american: hahahah. Have you ever spoken to the next generation? I dont think that you have or else you wouldnt be trying to defend them. True, there are those that still have a tradtional work ethic but those people are a dying breed. You can bring up how people used to cut their own grass but you have to take into consideration the work ethic of those individuals. The modern day american is a lazy whiner that doesnt believe in working for anything. They dont want to try because it is too hard so instead they cry and pass the buck instead of taking reasponsiblity for themselves. I work for the cable company(I do compliants and the like) so I hear it all day long.

I too am lazy in comparrison to my dad. I find that the majority of hispanics who have lived in america for a good deal of time become lazy too. Its a (american)cultural thing unfortunately. Trust me, an average mexican(in a bad part of mexico) is subjected to large cases of poverty and crime froma young age.

My dad had to support his brother and himself from the age of 12 because there was no room in the house for them and my grandma was almost 60 when she had my uncle. He left mexico and took his work ethic with him. He doesnt believe in something for nothing. My uncle on the other hand never worked until they came over here and he is now an extremely lazy and corrupt man.

He is family and I love him but hey he is. From this I originally came to my conclusion that america support a lazy society. It wasnt until later that I was constantly proven right. This is the only thing that I can talk about: my experiences with those who came over here illegally. I cant recite stats and give you a bunch of stuff that I know nothing about but I can give you honesty.


I am an american born and raised. I love this insane country because of the values and ideas it was built upon. I love how we can complain about how someone stole our jobs while we are just sitting on our @$$e$ drinking and watching UFC and scratching ourselves. What I dont love is people who think that america would be better off without immagrants.

I said my piece(and rambled) and I hope ths helps,

WF

[sanjuro_ronin]

Of course if those 12 millon were employed making cars and a decent wage, your auto industry wouldn't be in such a mess, same goes for the aeronautic sector.

Sure corporations are guilty, they need to compete in the WORLD market and with blown out of porportion unskilled labour rates ( yes, assembly line work is unskilled) they can't do that can they?

Like the man said, you make your bed, now you have to sleep in it.

[Old Tiger]

Immigrants made this nation strong, and no one can argue against that. However, the distinction needs to be made between 'legal' and 'illegal' immigrants. There are many who wants to come to the U.S. because of the opportunities it provides, and many of the legal one had to wait many years going through the legal process. At the time that I immigrated, there were only a quota of 600 per year (I don't know what's the current quota) from where I have immigrated from. So you can imagine how long one may have to wait. I'm not against Mexicans, I'm more than happy if they came here through the legal means. Previously I have worked with Mexicans, and I admired their work ethics (unfortunately, not the younger generation). Even though this is a land of opportunity, it should not mean a open door for anyone to come in at any time. Even though Mexicans made up most of the illegals immigrants, there are others illegals from other ethnicities, and I would oppose to all illegals no matter their ethnicity.

For those who see nothing wrong with illegal immigrants, how would you respond to this made up scenerio: Let say you own a home, I came in uninvited and stayed in one of your room. I decide to bring in / start a family in one of your room. I use your heat, water, electricity and food from your frig., but I do some work to keep that room clean. Would you let me stay or would you call the police to kick me out (assuming that you have not already shot me for breaking in). After you call the police, how would you feel if the police say they are not gonna do anything about it because I'm working to help keep your room clean. If you are fine with this, let me know when I can move in with my family. :D

[sanjuro_ronin]

I don't know of anyone that DOESN'T have issues with illegal immigrants, the issue is what to do with them and how it will effect the economy and everyone around them.

[Old Tiger]

I don't know of anyone that DOESN'T have issues with illegal immigrants, the issue is what to do with them and how it will effect the economy and everyone around them.

Then why I am hearing so many defending them, including politicians?:confused:

[Drake]

Well said. I bet if Al Qaeda decided to base operations in Mexico and cross our borders to plot terrorist attacks, we as a country would have a different mindset to this issue.

Somebody hasn't been watching current events closely enough.

[Drake]

If immigration laws were good enough for jesus, then they're good enough for me! :D

[Ultimatewingchun]

Certain giant corporations and their bought-and-paid-for politicians, media people and the like are playing A HUGE GAME that people constantly fall prey to - including most of the posters on this thread.

1) They WANT the immigration issue to become a "racial" thing - as it takes the spotlight off of themselves the more people are bickering over Mexicans, this group, that group, etc. But the fact is it's not the Mexicans who are the REAL PROBLEM...it's certain corporations and the people who run/own them.

2) They WANT people to think that they can't be "competitive" within global markets if they have to pay decent wages and give good benefits to American workers in manual labor industries. NAFTA and MOST FAVORED NATION STATUS for China both could be modified in a heartbeat - if they really wanted to it. So that a country like China, for example, would no longer be able to pay their workers peanuts and work them like near slaves so that they can undercut American prices.

Just raise the tariffs of Chinese imports until they learn how to play fair - instead of acting like Communist Dictators working a "State Capitalist" economy.

But American banks, financial institutions, and a whole array of other giant corporations are making a killing playing ball with the Chinese government - AT THE EXPENSE OF EVERYBODY ELSE.

Wake up and smell the coffee!

[sanjuro_ronin]

2) They WANT people to think that they can't be "competitive" within global markets if they have to pay decent wages and give good benefits to American workers in manual labor industries. NAFTA and MOST FAVORED NATION STATUS for China both could be modified in a heartbeat - if they really wanted to it. So that a country like China, for example, would no longer be able to pay their workers peanuts and work them like near slaves so that they can undercut American prices.

Just raise the tariffs of Chinese imports until they learn how to play fair - instead of acting like Communist Dictators working a "State Capitalist" economy.

You think they need you more than you need them ?

[Mas Judt]

This seems very probable.

It's simple. We need to control our borders.

I welcome those that come here to become Americans. To add their biological and technological distinctiveness to our own :p Resistance is futile.

BUT - and this is a big point - the abuse of the illegal population is a willing act on the part of ALL of us.

My argument is that it is racist to support illegal immigration.

[Drake]

btw...the Aztecs and Incas were mad south of Texas...

[Ultimatewingchun]

We don't need the Chinese products at all. So who cares what THEY need!

All we need to do is straighten out our situation at home and all the other chips will eventually fall into place.

1) Close the borders to illegal immigration

2) Penalize companies who hire illegal workers

3) Elect government officials who will hold corporations accountable for their actions - including stopping their attempts to wipe out small and medium-sized companies (ie.- the smaller private farmers and other companies/industries).

4) Give subsidies/tax breaks to companies who invest in non-fossil fuel forms of energy and vehicles

[Mas Judt]

What the hell, instead of waiting for all the illegals themselves to come over, I say we ship the billion or so poor people to America. They deserve to be here! They'll do jobs Americans won't do! It will keep costs down! Besides, we don't need to control our borders because we are all lazy, racist f@cks who don't understand how everything is our fault. Like 9/11 - we did it to ourselves! :rolleyes:

Yeesh. :eek:

We have become a nation of fools. :mad:

[Drake]

We don't need the Chinese products at all. So who cares what they need!

All we need to do is straighten out our situation at home and all the other chips will eventually fall into place.

"The World is Flat" -Thomas Friedman

You'll find out how that statement is so wrong and oversimplified on so many levels.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Go back and read my last post - as I've added to it. That should answer a few things for you.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Go back and read my last post - as I've added to it. That should answer a few things for you.

Isolationist policies don't work and are not for the greater good.

[Ultimatewingchun]

That's another fallacy. What I'm advocating is not isolationism at all. LET the Chinese compete with us - but on a level playing field.

[sanjuro_ronin]

That's another fallacy. What I'm advocating is not isolationism at all. LET the Chinese compete with us - but on a level playing field.

Which level playing field?

[Ultimatewingchun]

It's not a level playing field in terms of labor costs when the Chinese use 24/7 workcamps (but under the guise of "private enterprise" ) wherein manual laborers toil 70 hour workweeks, get paid a few dollars an hour - and live like peasants in crowded and dirty conditions on the grounds where they work.

This is vulture capitalism - but run by communists!

Pathetic.

And very hurtful to our economy and our working and middle classes.

But as long as certain Giant American Corporations are making a killing under these conditions - the neo cons in Washington stay in control - and play ball with the Chinese.

[Drake]

What Ultimate appears to be suggesting isn't isolationism, but rather responsible immigration policy.

[sanjuro_ronin]

It's not a level playing field in terms of labor costs when the Chinese use 24/7 workcamps (but under the guise of "private enterprise" ) wherein manual laborers toil 70 hour workweeks, get paid a few dollars an hour - and live like peasants in crowded and dirty conditions on the grounds where they work.

This is vulture capitalism - but run by communists!

Pathetic.

And very hurtful to our economy and our working and middle classes.

But as long as certain Giant American Corporations are making a killing under these conditions - the neo cons in Washington stay in control - and play ball with the Chinese.

Oh I agree, don't get me wrong.
But how to fix it? and be competitive?
How's your auto industry doing?
Boeing has plants in China, why?

You can't just look at one side of the picture, there is enough blame to go around.

[Merryprankster]

Drake, the world is decidedly NOT flat, and the sort of wierd "globaltopianism" that Friedman and his buddies espouse is just simply not right. Capitalism doesn't bring the transparent rule of law, or vice versa.

Friedman basically makes the Fukuyaman argument from an economic perspective.... and it turned out SO WELL for Fukuyama. :rolleyes:

Incidentally China does need us - as much or more - than we need it. Here is a rule that EVERYBODY seems to have forgotten in the age of globalization - "Unless there is a sole source supplier, the consumer, not the producer, has the leverage in any transactional relationship."

It's that simple.

As far as the illegal immigration argument... It is unrealistic to believe that we don't need the labor in the U.S. If there weren't, the unemployment rate would be much higher - then you could really argue that they took our jobs. Supply and demand applies to the labor market as well. To some degree, although how much I doubt anybody can say, productivity is up, and prices are low because of illegal immigrants doing mostly menial jobs. This does not address ANY of the cost to government/American taxpayer. Not going there yet (or possibly at all).

That said, the fundamental problem with illegal immigration is the first part of the phrase. We need a realistic program to deal with this, in terms of allowing guest workers or some such into the country, and at the same time devote some serious resources to border security. Part and parcel to this, IMO would be helping Mexico develop. FDI doesn't cut it, because (drum role please...) THE MARKET DOES NOT BRING THE TRANSPARENT RULE OF LAW. It doesn't improve infrastructure, and it doesn't raise the standard of living or the level of education of the populace. Instead, it only ensures that nobody ****s with the cash cow.

Mas Judt makes an interesting, and in my opinion, valid point about the idea that supporting illegal immigration is systemically racist, at least to a degree. Manufacturing jobs in the United States were once plentiful and paid well. Why is that? It wasn't because of the goodness of corporate souls. It was because unions actually had power, and forced concessions out of corporations and in some cases government. Then, I think we could argue that unions just got stupid and greedy and unwilling to face/deal with increasing competition from abroad. They got protectionist, instead of trying to maximize the good for their members.

The SEIU (service workers union) could, conceivably, be the wave of labor future in the united states. Well, illegal immigrants can't unionize effectively. They can't talk back. They can't protest with impact. If they try, they can be fired with impugnity and possibly deported, and there's always another to take their place. Systemically speaking, they run a greater risk of being treated poorly than any other subgroup of individuals in the country

It practically guarentees that service working conditions, benefits, packages etc are unlikely to improve much over time, and that illegals - and thus the JOBS THEY INHABIT - can be treated like crap in the labor market.

We need a sane immigration apparatus (policy and machinery) that is easy to navigate, allows for the need for labor, and can lead to citizenship in a reasonable amount of time provided certain benchmarks are met.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Mas Judt makes an interesting, and in my opinion, valid point about the idea that supporting illegal immigration is systemically racist, at least to a degree. Manufacturing jobs in the United States were once plentiful and paid well. Why is that? It wasn't because of the goodness of corporate souls. It was because unions actually had power, and forced concessions out of corporations and in some cases government. Then, I think we could argue that unions just got stupid and greedy and unwilling to face/deal with increasing competition from abroad. They got protectionist, instead of trying to maximize the good for their members.

You are getting there...

[omarthefish]

China has MASSIVE leverage over us economically.

If we hit them the DO have the ability to hit back.

Like it or not, we are inextricably tied to them and "getting tough" could result in an economic war that even if we win, would be devastating. Exports have nothing to do with it.

An economic war of attrition would really really suck for both sides.

These days, we have spent most of our political leverage already on other stuff. China is still holding their ace in monetary policy. We are in no position to be giving them lectures OR economic threats.

[Merryprankster]

sanjuro_ronin, not sure what your intent was, but that came across as insanely patronizing. I'll assume it wasn't :D

Come again?

[Merryprankster]

These days, we have spent most of our political leverage already on other stuff. China is still holding their ace in monetary policy. We are in no position to be giving them lectures OR economic threats.


A popular misconception, IMO. China does hold a significant amount of dollars in its reserves, but that also makes their monetary policy LINKED to it.

A massive sell off of dollars would destroy their reserves and their economy, because it would further reduce the value of their dollar holdings, which would get much less Euro or whatever other currency they are looking for per dollar. Each dollar would simply be worth less than it was before the sell off.

China can't afford to do this. Unlike the United States, where the foundations of the economy and the social space is strong, you cannot say the same thing in China. Hundreds of millions of Chinese are illegal immigrants in their own country, having moved illegally from the rural areas to the urban. The gap between the rich and the poor is overwhelming. China has staked all on increased and continued economic growth, promising eventual prosperity for everybody.

A massive dollar sell off would undercut that tremendously, and could lead to the end of party rule by destabilizing the pattern of massive growth. If the dollar devalues, their biggest consumer - the lynchpin of their growth - suddenly imports less, maybe engages in protectionist policies towards China. The social contract in China, right now, includes that growth.

Let me be more blunt. China will NOT do this in a punctuated way. They may sell off dollars over time, and the US would be foolish not to adjust to that, but no way will China sell all or most of its holdings at once - which would be what would be necessary for the type of shock you're talking about.

[sanjuro_ronin]

sanjuro_ronin, not sure what your intent was, but that came across as insanely patronizing. I'll assume it wasn't :D

Come again?

LOL, It wasn't, I apologise. I meant to say that you are on the right track with the issue being the unions and corporate america, though lets not leave the workes blameless in all this.

[omarthefish]

edit:

My pre-edit post made irrelvant my MP's last response while I was typing.

I don't have an argument. I just wanted to steer the discussion onto another important aspect i thought was being ignored. MP picked up on what I was alluding to.


Let me be more blunt. China will NOT do this in a punctuated way. They may sell off dollars over time, and the US would be foolish not to adjust to that, but no way will China sell all or most of its holdings at once - which would be what would be necessary for the type of shock you're talking about.

It's still leverage and can still hurt. Even minor changes in the dollar market have significant impact. My point is just that they DO have signifcant leverage that we can't ignore. The ability to beat them in an economic war doesn't mean we'll come out stronger on the other side. We could just be beaten, bloody bruised winners and who wants that?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Look at the AirBus situation right now.

[Merryprankster]

sanjuro,

I don't leave the workers blameless. They took a parochial view of their existence, and that was that. You can't protect American factory jobs. It's that simple. Manufacturing in the United States is going to continue to shrink; we can slap all the tarrifs we want on ****, but that limits the growth of US industry to the US market; unlike in a previous era, other countries are perfectly capable of supplying the world, and the world will go to those countries. They aren't forced to come to us, which means tariffs WILL yield consumers going with other suppliers.

Instead of recognizing that, workers allowed the unions to negotiate unrealistic deals with manufacturing, and push forward legislation to protect their markets....imagine how different things might have been if unions had brokered layoff deals that got laid-off workers retrained in growing sectors?

Incidentally, when are we going to end subsidies for US agriculture? Huge crime, IMO...

[Old Tiger]

I agree that isolationist is not good, but giving away the golden egg is worst. That is what is happening in the name of free trade. What make the U.S. above others is our innovations. Currently, no other countries has more modern innovations than the U.S., but this will change. We have already seen the outsourcing of manufacturing for many years, due to cheaper labor cost. We are told that this is not a bad thing to help keep us competitive. I do agree somewhat to it, given the cost of labor. However, the outsourcing of technologies will be our undoing in maybe 20 or 30 years.

I'm in the technologies field and I have seen this happen quite often. We outsource technologies, hardware and software to other countries in the guise of cheaper cost. There have even been push for higher number of H-1B visa for technology claiming that there is not enough resource in the U.S. to fill all the high tech positions. India and China economies have been growing like crazy, thanks to U.S. outsourcing. I will not argue the short term benefit for the U.S. However, do you think India and China will just sit idly by or will they take the skills and knowledge that they have learned and become innovators themselves. Don't even talk about patent protection, it is pretty non-existing there. I have known people who comes here with H-1B and went back to their native country to stay their own techology business. I have seen companies that told outsourced product and build their own to become competitors of the original outsourcing companyies. Historically, US has attracted many immigrants for their brain power, because US is the land of opportunity. In the future, say 20, 30 years or so, when India and China has build up their economies through innovations, can the US really compete?

Many large corporations say we have a shortage of high tech workers, that is totally B.S. I know of many high tech workers that have to switch to other industries because companies are not willing to hire them and train them. They rather get H-1Bs because they are cheaper. Take a good look at the large corporations and you will find more H-1B workers than someone 50+ years old. And this is not because these US workers are lazy.

History has given us the perfect example. Just look at the history of the consumer electronic industries I don't know how many billions it is nowaday, but most of those billions are going to Japanese, Chinese and Korean companies. How many US consumer electronic companies can you think of. Guess who gave them the technology?

I'm not been a fatalist, but realistically looking at it. America is been sold out by corporate and politicians (due to lobbyists) in the name of cheaper labor, but it actually is greed.

[Merryprankster]

However, do you think India and China will just sit idly by or will they take the skills and knowledge that they have learned and become innovators themselves.

Maybe. India and China are both fraught with problems. And their educational systems do not necessarily encourage innovation. This is actually a bigger problem than you might think.

There is also the issue of "brain drain." A lot of best and brightest leave, come to the US, and don't go back. This may not be permanent, but does mitigate things significantly.

Also, I would still argue that we are the most "innovative" economy out there.

For now. However, I don't think a crisis is on us.

[Drake]

Maybe. India and China are both fraught with problems. And their educational systems do not necessarily encourage innovation. This is actually a bigger problem than you might think.

There is also the issue of "brain drain." A lot of best and brightest leave, come to the US, and don't go back. This may not be permanent, but does mitigate things significantly.

Also, I would still argue that we are the most "innovative" economy out there.

For now. However, I don't think a crisis is on us.

Actually, many Indians aren't staying in the US. In fact, there was a recent news article about Americans moving to India.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The world is changing, has been for sometime, it just will take awhile for all to realize that the "juggernauts" of the past century will not be the ones of the century(ies) to come.
Unless they wake up and smell the river.

[Lucas]

wake up and smell the river.

Wait a minute!!:mad:

You've been asking us to smell the coffee all morning long, and now you go and change it to the river.

Just which one do you want everyone to smell?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Wait a minute!!:mad:

You've been asking us to smell the coffee all morning long, and now you go and change it to the river.

Just which one do you want everyone to smell?

One mans coffee is another mans river.

[Lucas]

One mans coffee is another mans river.

You must be monitoring how much coffee I intake daily....some might call it a river, I prefer creek.

[specialed]

The differences between the waves of illeagal foreign invaders dashing across our borders and the true immigrants who built this country are:

A) A desire to legally become a citizen of the USA

B) The understanding and intention of "melting" into US culture and society. That includes but is not limited to learning to be fluent in the English language

C) Handouts. No immigrant came here expecting handouts such as free healthcare, free schooling, and a governement that would bend over backwards to spoon feed them everything in thier own language and without effort on thier part.


Also, I thoroughly agree with the poster who asks "Why is this being discussed here?". This is a kung fu forum. Its been taken over by wacko's like RD, arrogant self promoters like lkfmdc, and people with no vested interest in Chinese martial arts a.k.a. the MMA crowd. Shame on the administration and moderators of this forum for letting it turn into the cesspool of all martial arts forums!

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Also, I thoroughly agree with the poster who asks "Why is this being discussed here?". This is a kung fu forum. Its been taken over by wacko's like RD, arrogant self promoters like lkfmdc, and people with no vested interest in Chinese martial arts a.k.a. the MMA crowd. Shame on the administration and moderators of this forum for letting it turn into the cesspool of all martial arts forums!

Reply]
This is much more than just a Kung Fu forum. It's a community. Many of us are old timers here and have been debating things with eachother for many years now. Sometimes discussing something besides the same old martial arts topics is a welcome break. Especially for many of the old timers here because we have already had just about every possible Kung Fu/Martial arts discussion possible...many, many times over.

I had thought to go to other forums, but to be honest the people I like to argue with and have been debating with for years now, are all here. It's like a general meeting ground.

I think we can leave the Kung Fu talk to the younger guys who have not seen it all adnauseum time and time again.

[Lucas]

Personally, I enjoy the range of topics discussed on this section of the forum.

Edit: This is the only forum I go to on a daily basis to read on.

[ittokaos]

Also, I thoroughly agree with the poster who asks "Why is this being discussed here?". This is a kung fu forum. Its been taken over by wacko's like RD, arrogant self promoters like lkfmdc, and people with no vested interest in Chinese martial arts a.k.a. the MMA crowd. Shame on the administration and moderators of this forum for letting it turn into the cesspool of all martial arts forums!

I completely agree.

[Mas Judt]

This iis the only forum I fairly regularly check. Same reason as RD.

It's more like hanging out a the pub after practice than the wannabee land of most forums.

[syn]

It should be prefectly fine to discuss unrelated topics to MA with the people we discuss MA about, why should bother all moving to another seperate forum to do so?



Anyways, I believe that America is moving further and further away from what is was founded on. I don't even think their anything it was truly founded on except for the belief that all our equal, but with such broad idealism comes alot of tongue in cheeck speeches. What I think most Americans need to learn is that there is no such thing as abo****es. No one rule can be put in place, and followed concretely, and still be ruled fair. The thing we are sturggling with right now is to learn how to balance the view of absolutism, and dynamic rule. Making our borders tighter I think will do nothing but hurt our foreign policy. That like saying "We're the land of the free, and opportunity, and we accept anyone....as long as you apply to a certain set of conditions." Who's to say an illegal mexican is any worse than an illegal canadian? And I have to say alot of these illegal mexicans aren't so much worse than alot of the americans already residing here. Most of the ones I've met (lots and lots living in Texas) have been really humble, and nice, not wanting to cause any conflict, just wanting to have a chance at surviving at a more possible level, seems like most of the trouble is the youth "gangabangers" who are looking to prove a point. The stereotypical immigrant isn't looking to cause a ruckus, why would they, at the chance of being deported? Plus they're taking petty jobs that either teenagers, or unnoticed illegal immigrants took before them. we've always had an illegal-immigrant market so to say, and the mexico borders been bypassed for so long (alot of my hispanic family friends are illegal, or sons and daughters of), the people claiming that they're taking our jobs must either be near going on wellfare, or preffer mowing lawns over working for corporations.
The fence is dumb and not going to make a difference besides killing more mexicans who are taking more dangerous routes now to sneak in. We shouldn't be focusing on making it HARDER to sneak in, but EASIER to legally come in.

My only problem with alot of the illegal hispanics is that at alot of the rallies they show their pride for mexico and wave around those flags and talk about their pride for their originating nation, but why would you be holding a pride rally for the country you came from when you're fighting so hard to be in the country you're currently residing in? This isn't much of a problem though as alot of those types of rallies were mostly angered youth.

[Mas Judt]

more racist fun:

http://cms.firehouse.com/content/article/article.jsp?sectionId=46&id=57323

[Mas Judt]

controlling our borders is simply what every country seeks to do. it is idiocy not to.

[syn]

Except that the US is unique in that it claims to offer opportunity for all people. If we didn't want to have so much trouble with our borders, they shouldn't have made the US seem like such a great place to live, whenever one of our neighbors citizens are looking for something just like that.

[Yum Cha]

Ittokaos: Pak Mei Forever! BTW, Albuquerque, New Mexico born and bread.

Drake: Yea, the Aztecks and Incas were south of Texas, but their blood is working in the sweatshops in Chicago and flogging t-shirts on the streets of NY. Whatever, my point is one century's victor is another century's vanquished. Force of arms may not be just but it is the reality of why lands and cultures change.

How many McDonalds are there in Germany these days? Can you still get a rindswurst at the Schnell Imbiss trailer rolled up outside the Kaserne? Komrade speaks English pretty good these days, nicht wahr?

Economics and globalisation.

This is the tragedy of the American working class, or what's left of it.

The corporations bend over and drop trousers for the chinese on the promise of selling a billion packs of Jucy fruit or coca cola, and trade away your jobs in the bargain.

Anybody that doesn't understand that Walmart is the Chinese Embassy needs to check the labels on the merchandis.

The Chinese could compete when it was peasant labour, but China is a millionaires factory right now, and there is a serious middle class emerging that won't go back to the old ways. Thousands of new cars hit the road everyday in Bejing, as do all the other consumer durables that are hallmarks of a modern economy. They will not go back, that is the human condition.

So, just like oil, the US if financing its own demise in a consumption frenzy, mesmerised by the chant "we are the best and strongest in the whole world, la la la..."

Merry made the point: "The SEIU (service workers union) could, conceivably, be the wave of labor future in the united states. Well, illegal immigrants can't unionize effectively. They can't talk back. They can't protest with impact. If they try, they can be fired with impugnity and possibly deported, and there's always another to take their place. Systemically speaking, they run a greater risk of being treated poorly than any other subgroup of individuals in the country"

Yes, illeagals can't unionise or negotiate, THATS WHY THEY ARE ALLOWED TO WORK!

So, cheap stuff from China, Cheap Labour from Mexico, and cheap cars from Detroit with a massive oil habit. The evil trinity that dooms most middle and lower middle class Americans.

Sure, the US Economy is strong. GM and Ford can't sell their overpriced SUV's enough to make a profit, so they are buying up foreign manufactures and re-branding in the States, flogging Korean, Japanese and European rigs that the public really want. It won't be long before those great names in American industry are no more than venture capitalists. And that's just one example.

OLD Tiger is right, there is a selling out of America, and its tragic. But as long as the spin doctors can keep you preoccupied with populist issues, fear and inflated self images, they'll have their way, and you'll get the leftovers.

OK, now tell me that even the poor in America are doing fine, they have a TV.....

The issue is not illeagals, the issue is the people that employ them, and no, not the guy who hires one to cut his lawn, but the Landscaping company that hires 20 to service 250 homes in your neighborhood. Or the home builder that has 15 crews out building sub-divisions.

Peace y'all - not taking a swing at America, always hoping for the best. Knowledge is power.

[ittokaos]

Ittokaos: Pak Mei Forever! BTW, Albuquerque, New Mexico born and bread.

.

My Bad. I saw the link and just assumed.

[Water Dragon]

So now we're talking economics? Cool, that allows me to use a good example. We have pages upon pages of how illegal immigration is tanking the economy, which I disagree with. I think the overall impact is small either ways compared to things like this brainstorm mortgage bail out that was approved to day. Now there's a situation that is going to have long term negative effects on the economy, IMO, but no one's even mentioning that. Everyone's too focused on the straw man, and important **** is slipping right past us. In that sense, I think the immigration debate has had the effect the Bush administration wanted.

[Mas Judt]

I doubt it. The Bush admin is pro illegal immigration. Much of the current outcry is a by product of both the democrats and the republicans effectively selling the country out to corporatist interests tyat want cheap labor.

[Mas Judt]

Today's bailout is the the result of fear over what the trigger was for the great depression - not the market crash, but housing devaluation, and the resulting effect on the economy (combined with protectionist policies around the globe and at home.)

The fed decided to restrict the monetary supply. The end result was ne of the greatest wealth transfers in human history - from citizens to the banks that own the fed. This was prolonged by FDR's foolish new deal policies that prolonged the depression.

I'll be curious to see if the long term effects of this bail out are a net positive or net negative.

[Yum Cha]

My Bad. I saw the link and just assumed.

I'm a dual-national. Just wanted to let you know not all Aussies are as enlightened as I am...:D:D:D:D

(or bloody minded, for that matter)

[Wildwoo]

My country! I called it! The rest of you out of here!
Mine, mine, mine.

[David Jamieson]

Is it ok for 12 million Mexicans to just move here in violation of US immigration law?

Is it Racist for a law abiding US citizen to be upset that they are in blatant violation of our laws and feel they should be expected to adhere to them?

Is it ok for Europeans to move here, kill off most of the indigenous people, stick the rest of them on dirt farms, destroy their way of life and take all their land by force?

I mean, in 100 or so years, what's the difference? At least they're not being overtly hostile about taking those crappy jobs cleaning up peoples crap and working for sub par wages while simultaneously running from the man and never being able to gaurantee a future like you could.

[Mas Judt]

Is it ok for Europeans to move here, kill off most of the indigenous people, stick the rest of them on dirt farms, destroy their way of life and take all their land by force?

Let them come and try, the cheese eating b@stards.

You are such a tool, the one has nothing to do with the other, and not one person alive today had ANYTHING to do with events from hundreds of years ago.

[Seppukku]

Is it ok for Europeans to move here, kill off most of the indigenous people, stick the rest of them on dirt farms, destroy their way of life and take all their land by force?.

You're so high an mighty. But I'm willing to bet there are more native americans alive in the US than there are eskimos. Look what you Can-a-d0rk-ians did to the eskimos! I'm not even going to bring up the snails, you es-car-goat! You put them all in igloos, and made them eat raw fish!

I think a reservation is like a summertime resort compared to what the French colonizers did to the eskimos.:mad:

[doug maverick]

wow we are still discussing this way off topic, topic the mods up here are kind slack. cause this non martial arts relkated topic either needs to be moved to an off topic forum or just be deleted.

[Mas Judt]

Doug,
You've gotta realize, this is part of the charm of this board.

[The Willow Sword]

Eliminate the Border by Unifying Mexico and the USA, Make Mexico a part of the US and there would no longer be illegal immigration. We go into Mexico and Clean it up so that they would not flood over here(and they would not flood over here if they had the same opportunity to work and make money for their families there as we do here)

Sounds like a great idea to me. The problem is that those of us who harbour these thoughts of "Soveriegnty" on BOTH sides including mexico want to preciously hold onto that as if their very lives and nature depended on it(since when does holding onto a Label make you any more or less of who you are as a person or a country?). We are all Humans and we all want to live and be prosperous, i am a human being first and foremost, the "American" title is just a label to define the part of the world i live in, it doesnt make me WHO i really am. Race is a touchy subject with most who have issues with race,why? well because they were raised to believe that they are superior than anyone else and that way of thinking is outdated and does not serve the advancement of our society as people. I think we could benefit greatly by unifying Mexico and the USA economy wise and socially. Of course this kind of Idea i am proposing is way beyond its time and many would not go for it because most of us are so very locked into this idea that we are what our governing bodies tell us we are. You are american, You are Mexican, i am American, i am Mexican, i am black, i am white, etc etc.
You ARE what you make yourself out to be.
Do you think that the People who live in mexico would like the opportunity to become the "label" we put on ourselves? Sure, why not? Many of them want to be here so that they can reap the benefits that we all seem to want to reap as "Americans". Lets bring it to them in their own country. Lets Unify.









I cant WAIT for Blow job 2 and the other racist neo cons here to start in on me.:rolleyes: See there we go again, labels. ;)


Peace,TWS

[Mas Judt]

Well speaking as a Libertarian who LIKES the ideas of no borders, it is just not feasible. It is not racist to say so, and it demonstrates an tremendous amount of arrogance and intellectual weakness to say so. In fact, I would your statements about 'cleaning the place up' exhibits a patrician hidden racism that is common among the so-called 'intelligent left' - an oxymoron if I ever heard one.

There is a cultural gap that makes Mexico what it is, and the USA what it is. We cannot 'fix it' for them. They need to do it themselves. Mexico has all the resources and people it needs. Why can't they do better? With the level of failure I see in Mexico, why would we want to part of Mexico?

I know a lot of educated, bright folks in Mexico. They can't wait to escape their own country. Why?

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

With the level of failure I see in Mexico, why would we want to part of Mexico?

Reply]
They have Gobs of un tapped Oil for one....

They will ALL be here ieventually anyway if things keep going the way they are. It's only a matter of time. Why not just Annex Mexico, and get the oil as payment for caring for the 12 million of them that have come here so far?

[Black Jack II]

I cant WAIT for Blow job 2 and the other racist neo cons here to start in on me. See there we go again, labels.

Look, you uneducated, American hating *** hag. I am done trying to talk some sense into you kid. I already informed you once that your over, your a second rate banana who had his chance, tell he informed everyone on the board that he wanted to see his own countrymen die in Iraq.

Your a wimpy little baboon-boy. Your so broken no one can help you out and your parents failed to produce a human being of any worth whatsoever.

Grats.

[doug maverick]

wow we are still discussing this way off topic, topic the mods up here are kind slack. cause this non martial arts relkated topic either needs to be moved to an off topic forum or just be deleted.

yes i know i been around since like 98-99 its a shame. we should drop this or at least discuss more civilized and not say things like lets invade mexico.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Annexing Mexico is a viable option though. I don't think we can secure the boarders. It will require way too much man power, for too long of a time. With massive payoff to Mexico's leaders, we could probably Buy them off into accepting.

If we Annex Mexico, we would be free to Drill for Oil there, collect taxes, and a lot of other things. There are a lot of bennifits,...certianly more than absorbing darn near the entire Mexican population.

As for those worried about Sovernty, isn't extending the US boarder South to the 15th parallel just giving us more acreage? How would that hurt our Sovernty?

[Mr Punch]

We should basically get the mods to at least rename this thread 'Another of RD's marbles Gone With The Wind'...

RD, you freak, why don't you just entitle all of your threads 'I'm madasabagospanners' with a number after it?

Sheesh.

[Seppukku]

If you annex Mexico, don't you thinks well have a lot of South Americans trying to get into the New Annexed United STates of America? I don't mind South Americans. I can't stand Koreans. But Hondurans aren't that far behind, and it's only a matter of time before the Hondurans start trying to get across the border.

Plus, we already have New Mexico. What will we call the Annexed Mexico? Newer MExico? You can't call it Mexico, because it will be newer than New Mexico, and we wouldn't want to discriminate against our New Mexicanians. I guess Newer Mexico would work. Or Mas Nueva Mexico, porque.

[David Jamieson]

seriously, this thread is reading alot like a 1936 german policy meeting.

I wonder if some ofyou are even reading the stuff you're putting down here.

"built this country"? wtf? your country was "built" by slaves. conquered by warmongers and possessed by power and political elite.

i think the coffee isn't being smelled by a lot of people.

People have an inherent right to travel with the wind and borders are the fabrications of greed and desire.

[Drake]

I was told by the internet that Mexico and Canada were actually annexed back in 1964 as a result of communist aggression. They just haven't officially declared it, deciding to wait until everything hyperinflates and aliens come down to save us before they announce it.

[specialed]

annex mexico? thats madness. that's opening pandora's box x 10. and willowfool: don't call me a racist neocon. racism in this issue is a word used to describe poeple who simply want the laws in place to be enforced as they should be. and if there's true racism in this issue its from radical groups like la raza that want to take over the US and eliminate the gringo's...even you

mexico has tons of problems, social, government corruption, crime, etc. instead of fleeing the country and demanding amnesty and welfare handouts (without earning those things), the citizens of mexico should turn thier efforts toward fixing thier own country. mexico could be great if the will of its people was to make it so. instead, they choose to flee and come here with a false sense of entitlement and liberal fools are encouraging them to do so.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

We could make it great for them....the price...Annexation.

[Drake]

We could make it great for them....the price...Annexation.

I think perhaps we should sort out our own issues first.

[Mas Judt]

Annexation is a foolish idea. It would be like when Mao invaded India - an easy victory followed by the realization he just added a billion poor people to take care of to his crazed welfare state. So he went home.

I welcome productive, non-criminal Mexicans who desire to come here, learn English, and become Americans - just loke all other legal immigrant groups have.

the rate we are going, with uncontrolled illegal movement, we will be like France - where cars burn in the streets every night, and you only know it is a riot when hundreds burn.

Look at the border towns - completely taken over by drug gangs and illegals. I've had my car stoned in Northern Cal when I drove through a village of illegals in the mountains by the coast North of Sebastopol. These are not the actions of folks seeking to be a part of America.

Years ago, I would have loved to go to Mexico and buy land. But I can't - I can only rent it. And am forbidden to own land near the border. And would be jailed for being there illegally. Mexican jails s@ck.

This is a tremendous double standard, and exhibits a strong racist tendency against American citizens. It is just wrong.

Let's get ahold of the situation - control our border - then be able to welcome the immigrants who will bring value to our society - JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER COUNTRY IN THE WORLD.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

How can we get controll of the border?

[The Willow Sword]

Mas Judt, when i write "clean the place up" i am NOT talking about some racist idea of ethnic cleansing or whatever you perceive my clean the place up comments to be as "racist". You drink the water in Mexico? Right out of the tap? Need i say more?


Blow Job 2 : i have NEVER said or written what you claim that i have about our troops. I challenge you to find the exact quote(and not make one up) find the quote, link me/us to it, and lets discuss or i shall clarify, other wise, shut your lame brained neo-con douche bag of a mouth up.

For the record here. I support our troops and do not wish for them to be in harms way, ESPECIALLY when they are being sent to fight an illegal resource and personal war generated by the Bush War mongering machine. Take your neo-con ideals and cram em right back up your @ss crossways. Evolve past your feeble little one sided mentality blow job 2, your mentality about what is "right" "true" and "free" is coming to an end. I laugh right in the face of your elitist seperatist privatised judeao xtian mentally ill rantings.

Peace,TWS

[Drake]

Mas Judt, when i write "clean the place up" i am NOT talking about some racist idea of ethnic cleansing or whatever you perceive my clean the place up comments to be as "racist". You drink the water in Mexico? Right out of the tap? Need i say more?


Blow Job 2 : i have NEVER said or written what you claim that i have about our troops. I challenge you to find the exact quote(and not make one up) find the quote, link me/us to it, and lets discuss or i shall clarify, other wise, shut your lame brained neo-con douche bag of a mouth up.

For the record here. I support our troops and do not wish for them to be in harms way, ESPECIALLY when they are being sent to fight an illegal resource and personal war generated by the Bush War mongering machine. Take your neo-con ideals and cram em right back up your @ss crossways. Evolve past your feeble little one sided mentality blow job 2, your mentality about what is "right" "true" and "free" is coming to an end. I laugh right in the face of your elitist seperatist privatised judeao xtian mentally ill rantings.

Peace,TWS


Actually, the war in Iraq was based off of bad intel. Thanks, George Tenet! :mad:

[Mas Judt]

ws - who said 'ethnic cleansing' - grow the f@ck up - it is racist to say we need to 'clean the place up' - even in the context you were referring. What makes you think we can or there is something THEY think we could clean up. Great thinking, you're just like dubbya.

I don't think you realize how arrogant and racist you appear.

[David Jamieson]

How can we get controll of the boarder?

stay in school?




:D

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

http://www.onenewsnow.com/2007/10/study_says_illegal_alien_popul.php

[The Willow Sword]

Mas Judt, Still wrong about me. Once again, when i say "Clean the place up" i mean EXACTLY JUST THAT. Mexico has poor sanitation standards as well as water quality standards that are much like a third world country. They do not have the same emission standards as we do here in the USA on their vehicles, etc etc, the list goes on. Stop with your instigating and putting characteristics on me just because the Racists out there(to which i am NOT) say the same thing i do but mean differently what i am meaning. It is not arrogant or racist to say that a country such as mexico is filthy because it does not adhere to stricter standards of environment and Social. The reason they dont have it is NOT because they are Lazy and whatever other Racial label you want to put on them, it is the economy there which sucks as well as the government.

Now that we have cleared that up,,,,,,,PEACE,TWS

[Mas Judt]

Stop with your instigating and putting characteristics on me just because the Racists out there(to which i am NOT) say the same thing i do but mean differently what i am meaning. It is not arrogant or racist to say that a country such as mexico is filthy because it does not adhere to stricter standards of environment and Social. The reason they dont have it is NOT because they are Lazy and whatever other Racial label you want to put on them, it is the economy there which sucks as well as the government.

Willow, you are the one associating things that were not said. Let me see 'ethnic cleanising' - assumption on your part. 'Lazy and whatever other you...' -- also a statemernt BY YOU, not me.

Why are these things the first to come to your mind? I never said or associated these concepts with Mexico - YOU DID.

Whether you admit or not, you are exhibiting racist views towards are brothers to the South. You can deny all you want and lie all you want about what others say, but the truth is right there in what you say.

I would also NEVER advocate taking over Mexico - certainly not to 'clean it up' - how arrogant.

Let the Mexicans choose their way. Let the Americans choose theirs. Culturally, our method of government and tolerances for how we live are fundamentally different. Mexico is poor because of the cultural tolerance for corruption inspired by their Spanish colonial overlords. All former Spanish colonies have this problem due to the class and race concious nature of Spanish colonialism.

I suggest you take a more enlightened view and realize that these are people who want their own destiny and not be 'cleaned up' by el norte'.

[specialed]

Mas Judt, Still wrong about me. Once again, when i say "Clean the place up" i mean EXACTLY JUST THAT. Mexico has poor sanitation standards as well as water quality standards that are much like a third world country. They do not have the same emission standards as we do here in the USA on their vehicles, etc etc, the list goes on.

ah yes, lets just "clean it up" for them. that's right willow, why don't you set the example for us all by donating half of your yearly income for the next 20 years to help clean up the water in mexico? by doing that, maybe you can recruit a whole bunch of your hypocritical liberal friends to volunteer thier incomes instead of hatching a half baked and impossible to implement plan to bail out another country with our tax dollars.
see, hypocracy is a huge part of the problem at the heart of such debates: its far more condescending and racist of you mr. high and mighty liberal, to talk about thier poor standards and insinuate that they need us to clean things up for them, than it is for anyone to say get the illeagals out of the US!. i say that if mexico wants to be something other than a third world country, then the mexicans themselves need to fix the problems. the answer isn't throwing aid money at them, the answer is for them to have the desire and to take action, instead of bailing out and running across the border for handouts!

a few weeks back i saw an interesting exchange between vincente fox the former president of mexico and bill oreilly of fox network. it was regarding border security and the drug trade. bill oreilly took the stance that mexico was not doing enough to clean up criminals and drug lords, while vincente fox took the stand that it was the US that had the drug problem and because of that it was our responsibility to solve the problem. this is a classic example of hypocracy and cowardice, and a good look into the soul of mexico. as long as the "leaders" of that country make excuses and blame others, they will be a third world country. if they had the will and the courage to combat the drug trafficers, not only would they make sweeping societal changes that would allow for positive growth, but they would also be able to rally serious help from the US to do so. but they aren't serious about it, and they don't have the resolve for such and undertaking. sadly, neither do our own cowardly politicians on both sides of the spectrum. the conservatives get shouted down and labelled as racist, mean and bad so they avoid the issure. the liberals would lose thier voting base of government dependants whom they pander to so they spend thier time pointing fingers away from themselves.

[Black Jack II]

i have NEVER said or written what you claim that i have about our troops.

You stupid donkey molester, we have ALREADY been through this, where you asked me to show you this post and before I even got to it, another forum member posted it for you, you really want to do it all again?????????

You can not be that retarded, but yet again you may suprise me.

Listen, you bubbleheaded clown you are the biggest fake, cotton candy a$$ ***** on this forum, a hercules sized douche that hates his own country and wants their soliders to die.

Disgusting fool.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

http://www.alpinesurvival.com/immigration.html

http://news.aol.com/story/_a/smugglers-build-underground-world/20071207085209990001?ncid=NWS00010000

According to this Youtube clip, **48,000** American citizens have been Murdered by invading Illegal Mexicans.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpomTIkv0V8&feature=related

Total Fatalities from the Iraq war

Operation Iraqi Freedom: 3,872
Operation Enduring Freedom: 465
(Updated December 9, 2007)

It is safer to be in Iraq, than to BBQ in your back yard if you live in the American South west now.......

[doug maverick]

How can we get controll of the border?

what if we put a picturte of you and some of your rants in spanish and tell mexicans this is what awaits you accross the border i swear that'll top them dead in their traCKS

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

No it won't. I am just one in a million who feels this way. Expressing that feeling has not stopped 12 million + from comming here in the last 10 years, why would it start working now?

What we need to do is invade Mexico and bring forth the rule of law to that land. Then they would not need to invade the US and bring thier Lawlessness to us.

[specialed]

"In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the person's becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American. There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag. We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language. And we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."

President Teddy Roosevelt - 1907

[Ultimatewingchun]

The illegal immigration issue is not about Mexicans invading the country.

It's about the CORPORATIONS who arrange for this to happen - by buying/bankrolling politicians, legislation, judges, media, think tanks, government agencies, etc.

They don't want to pay American workers fair and decent wages with benefits to do manual labor.

They want to pay Mexicans a few dollars an hour with no benefits.

Get the clue! :eek:

[Mas Judt]

It's both really. But I can see why you think that, as you probably don't read or listen to Mexican politicians or media. Americans tend to not pay attention to anything going on outside their borders. It's weird.

Both the fringe left and right has their heads up their own a$$es, while the rest just don't care enough to pay attention.

The mind, it boggles.

And RD - Invasion is just a dumb idea.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I know you feel that way, but if we go by your logic that we discussed earlier, it seems your fears have already come to pass.....time to take payment from them.

The thing is, they have already brought lawlessness to our nation, and the culture that follows them is one of third world corruption. Taking the land is not going to make it any worse. However, if we do take Mexico, and start punishing thier corrupt leaders, and start making headway for a more civilised society by bringing in the rule of law, then Mexico will improve and become elevated to the Level of the US. This will in turn remove the reasons that they enter the US to begin with. They will have no incentive migrate because wages, and security will be just as high, or higher there, then they can find here.

You mentioned that it is thier culture that causes the problems. In part yes, but in other part is the fact that they do not reap rewards for thier efforts....they do however reap those rewards HERE...which is why they come.

If we were to Annex Mexico, punish the corrupt leaders and create an economy and freedom that rewards them for thier labors, then human nature dictates that they will put forth the effort to receive those rewards. How do I know it will work? Because of all of the Mexicans that come here, work hard and live peaceful and productive lives.


If you want to argue the culture aspect, right now they are bringing thier culture to us...if we wish to put an end to this problem, we must bring our culture to them. Maybe we should smother them with it.

[Merryprankster]

Specialed,

Dude, you watched Vincente Fox and on O' Reilly and decided that it was an example of Mexican excuses??

You want Mexico to "clean up it's act?" OK.... well, the majority of the weapons smuggled into Mexico come from the US, last I checked. Hmmmm...

Mexico is a corruption ridden country with terrible rule of law problems and a chip on its shoulder the size of well... Texas, Colorado, Nevada, New Mexico and Arizona :)

But there is some measure of blame to be laid on the US side of the equation too. Drug Money and guns flow into Mexico from the north... we get drugs and aliens.

I wonder what would happen if we took some more care of our part of it?

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Mexico is a corruption ridden country with terrible rule of law problems and a chip on its shoulder the size of well... Texas, Colorado, Nevada, New Mexico and Arizona

Reply]
That is because corruption has been successful. If we Annex them, and create an environment where Corruption is disadvantageous, then it would fall to the wayside in favor of better methods.

This would not happen quickly, and it would take effort, work, and time (probably decades) on our parts...to which I say thier Oil would be fair compensation for our services.

If we do not do this, every year more and more of them will come here untill the South west USA becomes the same desecrated land that Mexico is.

[Mas Judt]

MP - you left off Columbia, Nicaraugua and Guatamala - courtesy of United Fruit, I believe. A BIG chip.

RD - I don't believe you can force a fundamental change like that through force. Nor do I want to go to war. While I generally think well of my country - we HAVE waged wars of aggression throughout our history - starting with trying to seize Canada in 1812. I prefer a more libertarian approach - I'll leave you alone, if you leave me alone.

Look, we are becoming more like them anyhow. Look at the girl gangs beating up that guy in New York - look at the acceptance of drugs, corruption and crime - the thug culture that defines today. It is a far cry from free love, ain't it. Then look at the self hate and utter lack of logic exhibited by guys like Willow Sword.

It may not matter, as I think America may have left the building.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

RD - I don't believe you can force a fundamental change like that through force.

Reply]
You can impose the rule of law through a system of consistent and significant punishment. Make it so it is easier to do things right and the laws of human nature will force them to take the path of least resistance by accepting the rule of law as thier guiding principal.


Nor do I want to go to war. While I generally think well of my country - we HAVE waged wars of aggression throughout our history - starting with trying to seize Canada in 1812. I prefer a more libertarian approach - I'll leave you alone, if you leave me alone.

Reply]
Well, if you have a plan to get them to "Leave us alone", lets here it...untill them some motivational action will be needed to make them loose interest in thier current courses of action.



Look, we are becoming more like them anyhow. Look at the girl gangs beating up that guy in New York - look at the acceptance of drugs, corruption and crime - the thug culture that defines today. It is a far cry from free love, ain't it. Then look at the self hate and utter lack of logic exhibited by guys like Willow Sword.

Reply]
Yes, there is a growing problem with that in the US, however if you look around, there are also vast geographic areas full of Quarer million dollar homes....so there is still great prosperity in the US. By focusing on the under belly of society, you are missing all the greatness that is bursting from our country's seams.

I do feel there is an economic crisis comming, and it would be best to prepare for it. The face of our nation is going to change whether we like it or not. The question is whether or not we are going to succome to the pressure, or expand into something greater when we come out the other side.

It may not matter, as I think America may have left the building

Reply]
Maybe, it may only be a matter of time before the US is gone. If we are to survive, I think expansion is the answer...and that expansion means Annexing Mexico for it's natural resources in return for bringing the American way to a poor and dysfunctional people. If we don't, they will keep flooding our nation, and exporting thier sociitally destructive problems TO us.

Annexation is the only viable answer.

[specialed]

Specialed,

Dude, you watched Vincente Fox and on O' Reilly and decided that it was an example of Mexican excuses??

You want Mexico to "clean up it's act?" OK.... well, the majority of the weapons smuggled into Mexico come from the US, last I checked. Hmmmm...

Mexico is a corruption ridden country with terrible rule of law problems and a chip on its shoulder the size of well... Texas, Colorado, Nevada, New Mexico and Arizona :)

But there is some measure of blame to be laid on the US side of the equation too. Drug Money and guns flow into Mexico from the north... we get drugs and aliens.

I wonder what would happen if we took some more care of our part of it?

dude, that was one example cited. you really don't want me to list page after page of examples do you? anyway, i agree that we need to take care of things. lets start with strict enforcement of the border and immegration law. and as far as weapons smuggled into mexico? smuggled? smuggled into mexico? wtf are you talking about? are the mexicans crying about thier drug lords getting weapons from the US? enforce the border. enforce immegration law. watch all the issues such as drug trade and your silly weapons smuggling concerns deflate.

here, try worrying about problems like this turd rather than some silly concern like smuggling guns into mexico: http://www.wftv.com/irresistible/14792891/detail.html please note, this is an illeagal invader from guatemala who travelled through mexico and crossed the US border. eforce or this is what we get.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Closing the border should be the first step to Annexation.

[golden arhat]

That said, I too am not happy that so many things have to be in Spanish. You're here - learn English.



i'm all for people following the law

but people should only be forced to learn english if they are moving here to the UK

america is america its supposed to be full of immigrants from everywhere
everyone is supposed to emigrate there to have an equal start and an equal chance at love life liberty happyness etc etc
i'm sure the first english settlers didnt impress the natives much

coming to america means a better life for the average mexican and his family

arent u for that ?
shouldnt everyone be going out of their way to provide these new immigrants with the same oppourtunity that almost everyone elses ancestors enjoyed when they first emigrated 400 years ago, the second world war or at any other time

if u dont like the idea of people coming to your country to live better then u better throw urself out because every single american like it or not is exactly that

an immigrant


u dont have the right to decide who comes in and who comes out

[golden arhat]

"In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the person's becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American. There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag. We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language. And we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."

President Teddy Roosevelt - 1907

why the english language ? people should speak whatever language they want

its not an english country just because the majority of people who came to the US first were white british

its useful to know english obviously but its clinging to things like the language that inspires racist feeling

why doesnt everyone learn whatever language is most applicable to there area ?

californians learning spanish and english and people from nebraska just learning english


look at canada it used to be an actual BRITISH colony

we were never bothered that people also spoke french we just put different signposts up

if u go to wales u can see english and welsh signs together
same with ireland and gaelic

focus instead on being american in principle
just because u dont speak english doesnt make u not an american

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

u dont have the right to decide who comes in and who comes out

Reply]
Actually, there ARE laws that dictate this. I don't know anyone who has an issue with people imigrating to this country. However, we expect them to FOLLOW OUR LAWS. How can they truly be here to imigrate into our society if they are totally disrespectful of our laws? That is a big insulting **** you, and highly disrespectful...especially the Illegal ones that are now flying MEXICAN Flags over upsidedown American Flags. That is not imigration, it's invasion and a declaration of war.

why the english language ? people should speak whatever language they want

its not an english country just because the majority of people who came to the US first were white british

Reply]
Because it is the "Official" Language of the USA. If they want to imigrate here, they need to learn to speak OUR language, not impose THIER'S on us.

This does not mean drop thier native toung, we have room for both, but every immigrant in the history of the US has learned functional English as part of thier path to citizenship....only these flippant illegal Mexicans thumb thier noses at us and refuse to go about doing things properly. They are basically saying **** You to us, and then demanding we care for them at the same time....this kind of disrespect would get them shot if they tried to immigrate to ANY other country....and rightly so.

[Mas Judt]

No, we abdicated making English the official language. In many places there are penalties for not having Spanish options.

Dude - that video was by a seccessionist using the stars and bars. Now, most people know the war was not fought over slavery, but THAT is what it represents today. No matter the message, the messenger does affect it.

Also - 48,000? I'd like to see reference on that, as I think the total homicides from 9/11 to about last year was 100,000. If that number was correct, it's pretty sobering.

[Mas Judt]

Language binds a people together. The Quebecois have always sought to seperate from thier 'lesser' English speaking partners.

Balkanization is on the march around the world. Even if we do become a North American Union (which I think is inevitable, and unfortunately probably the best solution, despite my dislike of it.) there will be pressures that can tear it apart without repressive measures (which I oppose.)

Look at China. Yes, they are repressive. But inching away from totalitarian - but not completely, because the counttry is polyglot, they look at the USSR and their own history as an example - too much variety + no more repression = war, seperation & suffering.

We need a common language to bind us together as Americans. Without this, we are no longer the USA, and will balkanize - especially with the strong nationalist/racist feelings on the Mexican side.

You are a fool if you think it does not matter Yum Cha. People were always welcome here, but were expected to assimilate. Not create enclaves that hate the country, walk all over our laws, and tear it apart.

I was talking to my business partner in Mexico City last night, he found this thread hilarious.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Also - 48,000? I'd like to see reference on that, as I think the total homicides from 9/11 to about last year was 100,000. If that number was correct, it's pretty sobering.

Reply]
We need some verifiable figures. I was just taking random finds on the web and posting them. I am not sure of the accuracy. Yesterday was sort of my awakening to the situation.....I had no idea it was so bad.

[specialed]

golden idiot: you are a shining example of why your country is rapidly heading down the toilet. you know nothing of america, and as far as i am concerned please focus your efforts on turning your own country over to foreigners.

there can be no unity in a country that does not speak a common language. this is only a sign of the intention of those illeagally crossing the border. they don't want to assimilate, they don't want to become american, and they do not obey our laws. its that simple. anyone who supports illeagal invasion, i suggest you stop locking your doors when you're home as well as away from home. if you find someone in your house without permission, let them do whatever they want and offer to pay for whatever expenses they incur. then you can support any kind of amnesty or takeover policy that makes you feel happy. if you aren't willing to do that, ask yourself why, and how your homeland is any different from your home.

[AJM]

I believe this has been an ongoing plan since at least the 1850's. The U.S. has been a predominately Protestant nation (at least amongst the ruling class) since it's inception. Simple logic really. If you can't convert people to the HRCC, you can import millions of people that are already members. I believe the great hunger was allowed to continue so millions of Irish would come here. I believe that the genocide we call the Risorgimento was allowed to happen in Italy so that the largest mass migration in human history would happen. Most of the people came here. And now Mexico. I hope they bring Corona and Patron.

[Shaolinlueb]

actually i think a law slipped by the people that made english the official language of this country.

i mean why shouldn't it be? it has been spoken for over 200 years here and the people from here speak it. sure more people coming in speak spanish, but should we bend over backwards for them?

i am all for closing the borders. its not going to stop them, they will still find a way over. there are a lot of people who came here legally, they can do the same.

i'm for closing all borders, not just mexican, canadian, and oceantic ones too.

plus mexico's president is a hypocrit. telling us to be nice to his people, when people immigrating through mexico to get to america, get murdered, robbed, beat up, hospitalized etc. and its very common too. whatever, mexican president can suck my balls.

[Mas Judt]

Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 95
I believe this has been an ongoing plan since at least the 1850's. The U.S. has been a predominately Protestant nation (at least amongst the ruling class) since it's inception. Simple logic really. If you can't convert people to the HRCC, you can import millions of people that are already members. I believe the great hunger was allowed to continue so millions of Irish would come here. I believe that the genocide we call the Risorgimento was allowed to happen in Italy so that the largest mass migration in human history would happen. Most of the people came here. And now Mexico. I hope they bring Corona and Patron.

So I'm willing to bet you think 9/11 was caused by little grey men from outer space ticked off about Roswell..

[AJM]

No and bugger off cul de chapeau.

[golden arhat]

golden idiot: you are a shining example of why your country is rapidly heading down the toilet. you know nothing of america, and as far as i am concerned please focus your efforts on turning your own country over to foreigners.

there can be no unity in a country that does not speak a common language. this is only a sign of the intention of those illeagally crossing the border. they don't want to assimilate, they don't want to become american, and they do not obey our laws. its that simple. anyone who supports illeagal invasion, i suggest you stop locking your doors when you're home as well as away from home. if you find someone in your house without permission, let them do whatever they want and offer to pay for whatever expenses they incur. then you can support any kind of amnesty or takeover policy that makes you feel happy. if you aren't willing to do that, ask yourself why, and how your homeland is any different from your home.
sieg heil mein furher

u havent adressed anything but yeah


oh well

ur speshulll

[specialed]

sieg heil mein furher

u havent adressed anything but yeah


oh well

ur speshulll

are you implying that i am a nazi? that's ridiculous. go read the quote i posted from Teddy Roosevelt. that sums up exactly where i come from on this issue. i have no racist nor facist beliefs, however i do believe in the rule of law. apparently in your mind that equates to something entirely different.

[Mas Judt]

No and bugger off cul de chapeau.

Ah, the sound of intelligent debate. Or was that the refuge of the intellectually barren?

[bawang]

chinese people invented hip hop.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQ3uBPNiO0I

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Yeah, thats all funny and all, but not related to the topic.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I don't see what your problem is with Mexicans:

[D-FENS]

I don't see what your problem is with Mexicans:


I think she's here legally. If not, well, she can stay. :cool:

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I don't see what your problem is with Mexicans:

I don't have a problem with Mexicans at all, I have problems with Lawless illegal immigrants invading our boarders and bringing violence and havoc with them. I also have problems with illegals coming here and taking jobs that used to be done by American citizens. I have problems with them using fake social security numbers to do so as well. ESPECIALLY when legit American citizens are denied unemployment because they are shown to have jobs, when they actually don't due to some illegal using thier social number to get work he does not deserve...along with a whole other list of issues related to the total lawless behavior of illegals (12 million + at least in 10 years, by some accounts 38 million total.).

I don't actually have a problem with Law abiding Mexicans, and thier women are pretty hot...it's just there are so few of them compared to the illegals that are causing all the problems.

Actions speak louder than words, it's not about race. It's properer behavior VS. destructive behavior.

Our immigration laws were set up for a reason...if someone wants to immigrate to our country, I expect them to follow our laws.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Where are these numbers that show the vast majority of illegal aliens are commting crimes?

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I have been cruising all over the net studying this the last couple of days. It's pretty common knowledge.

Here is just one page..there are hundreds like this from all imaginable sources.

http://capoliticalnews.com/s/spip.php?article25

INS/FBI Statistical Report on Undocumented Immigrants

2006 (First Quarter) INS/FBI Statistical Report on Undocumented Immigrants

CRIME STATISTICS 95% of warrants for murder in Los Angeles are for illegal aliens.

83% of warrants for murder in Phoenix are for illegal aliens.

86% of warrants for murder in Albuquerque are for illegal aliens.

75% of those on the most wanted list in Los Angeles, Phoenix and Albuquerque are illegal aliens.

24.9% of all inmates in California detention centers are Mexican nationals here illegally

40.1% of all inmates in Arizona detention centers are Mexican nationals here illegally

48.2% of all inmates in New Mexico detention centers are Mexican nationals here illegally

29% (630,000) convicted illegal alien felons fill our state and federal prisons at a cost of $1.6 billion annually

53% plus of all investigated burglaries reported in California, New Mexico, Nevada, Arizona and Texas are perpetrated by illegal aliens.

50% plus of all gang members in Los Angeles are illegal aliens from south of the border.

71% plus of all apprehended cars stolen in 2005 in Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, Nevada and California were stolen by Illegal aliens or “transport coyotes".

47% of cited/stopped drivers in California have no license, no insurance and no registration for the vehicle. Of that 47%, 92% are illegal aliens.

63% of cited/stopped drivers in Arizona have no license, no insurance and no registration for the vehicle. Of that 63%, 97% are illegal aliens

66% of cited/stopped drivers in New Mexico have no license, no insurance and no registration for the vehicle. Of that 66% 98% are illegal aliens.

BIRTH STATISTICS 380,000 plus “anchor babies” were born in the U.S. in 2005 to illegal alien parents, making 380,000 babies automatically U.S.citizens.

97.2% of all costs incurred from those births were paid by the American taxpayers.

66% plus of all births in California are to illegal alien Mexicans on Medi-Cal whose births were paid for by taxpayers

[sanjuro_ronin]

So, if these people are illegal/undocumented, how do they know WHO they are and WHERE they are and how do they know WHO commited thise crimes and how is their a warrant out on people that are "undocumented" ?

The US legal system is, well....interesting to say the least.

[sanjuro_ronin]

24.9% of all inmates in California detention centers are Mexican nationals here illegally

40.1% of all inmates in Arizona detention centers are Mexican nationals here illegally

48.2% of all inmates in New Mexico detention centers are Mexican nationals here illegally

29% (630,000) convicted illegal alien felons fill our state and federal prisons at a cost of $1.6 billion annually

You guys have laws against deportation ??
LOL !!

[ittokaos]

i'm for closing all borders, not just mexican, canadian, and oceantic ones too.


At least you are being equal. If everyone here was for shutting down all borders instead of just mexican ones there wouldnt be so much uproar from the latin community. I for one have had a problem due to the fact that there have been several reports of how terrorists have come down from canada yet no one says anything about their border. When was the last time that you heard that terrorists are successfully entering america through mexico?

It looks bad. It makes people appear racist regardless if they are or not.

[sanjuro_ronin]

At least you are being equal. If everyone here was for shutting down all borders instead of just mexican ones there wouldnt be so much uproar from the latin community. I for one have had a problem due to the fact that there have been several reports of how terrorists have come down from canada yet no one says anything about their border. When was the last time that you heard that terrorists are successfully entering america through mexico?

It looks bad. It makes people appear racist regardless if they are or not.

LOL !!!
Too funny, you have a crappy border system and its everyone elses fault !

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

So, if these people are illegal/undocumented, how do they know WHO they are and WHERE they are and how do they know WHO commited thise crimes and how is their a warrant out on people that are "undocumented" ?

The US legal system is, well....interesting to say the least.

Reply]
Just becasue they are here illegally does not mean they are invisible. They figure this stuff out with the same investigative methods they figure any crime out.

For example, if I was a police officer and I pulled over a vehicle, the driver spoke no ingles, has NO ID, or an ID with some Gringo's info from another state, the car had no plates, or they are plates stolen from another Gringo in another state, and this individual cannot even give me a valid social security number, guess what!! He's an illegal, most likey from Mexico!!!

Law enforcement in the Southern US are absolutely over run with incidents like this, at least that is what I have been seeing the last couple of days from internet searches.

[sanjuro_ronin]

For example, if I was a police officer and I pulled over a vehicle, the driver spoke no ingles, has NO ID, or an ID with some Gringo's info from another state, the car had no plates, or they are plates stolen from another Gringo in another state, and this individual cannot even give me a valid social security number, guess what!! He's an illegal, most likey from Mexico!!!

Or Kentucky.
:D

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

The guy in Kentucky would speak fluent hillbilly, not Mexicanised Spanish.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The guy in Kentucky would speak fluent hillbilly, not Mexicanised Spanish.

Ok JuanCarlos.
;)

[ittokaos]

LOL !!!
Too funny, you have a crappy border system and its everyone elses fault !

I am not trying to talk trash about the canadian border. I am simply saying that if the terrorist arguement is going to be used it would be foolish to "lock the door when the window is down"(car analogy). It sshould all be equal. If you are simply trying to blame hispanic illegals for the majority of the crime in the country based on "it would make sense if they were" then you would be foolish. I looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and talks like a duck, it could still be a chicken.

look at the platypus.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

If you are simply trying to blame hispanic illegals for the majority of the crime in the country based on "it would make sense if they were" then you would be foolish.

Reply]
No one is doing that. It's blatently obvious when you look at the FBI/INS data I posted above. This is not a guessing game, it's documented.

Also, your duck analogy does not hold water becasue when something looks, act and Quacks like a duck, it most certianly is. A Chicken or Platypus are far to different to be mistaken as such.

If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, we have at least to
consider the possibility that we have a small aquatic bird of the
family anatidae on our hands."
-- Douglas Adams

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Also, on the Canadian border issue, there are NOT massive influxes of rabid, Lawless Canadians illegally entering our Nation wreaking havoc on our economy and civilized state of living. All they do is import Hockey....Why should we punish free trade and passage with them because of the Mexican's crimes? Are you saying we should punish the innocent?

[The Willow Sword]

http://www.dishmail.net/fullpage?module=855166&newsarticleid=31486


nah dont punish the innocent(if in fact we are all really Innocent;) ) but i think this punishment is very fitting.




















hehe Hijack

[Baqualin]

Or Kentucky.
:D

Do you realize how many of us from Kentucky travel to your area to fish, hunt and drink Canadian Beer every year......with legit social security #'s & college degrees.:eek:

[sanjuro_ronin]

Do you realize how many of us from Kentucky travel to your area to fish, hunt and drink Canadian Beer every year......with legit social security #'s & college degrees.:eek:

Do you bring your wives? I mean sisters, er I mean cousins, ...

Just messing with you hillbilles :D

You guys rock !

[ironfenix]

I can honestly say, having experienced things on both sides of the border, that mexican people are NOT planning a takeover of the US. They don't come here to strategically position themselves in areas where their strength could prove useful for the taking back of the alamo. Quite frankly, most mexican people could care less about that. They come here for a life, period. People over exaggerate on their terrorist potential but they are not. All they want is a chance to feed their kids. They are a hard working race with strong values, whose only sin is having been born poor.
The problem i foresee is that middle eastern people look very much like mexican people, and it makes sense to improve our border protection.