Alan Orr - Chi Sao Clip

[Alan Orr]

Hi Guys

A clip demo of Chi Sao from my new series

http://youtube.com/watch?v=N7S1WFuZieo

This is Chu Sai Lei Wing Chun and the way we train our Chi Sao.

I'm not going full speed or full power as this is training Chi Sao.

If you have a eye for chinese martial skills you will see the control of stance and position.

My best

Alan

[monji112000]

good stuff.:)

[KPM]

Its doesn't come up when I click on the link. All I get is a generic youtube page. :confused:

[aaron baum]

apologies...operator error...ie me

here it is:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=AKkp19KV9xg

best

[sanjuro_ronin]

As an outsider looking in, it seems that they "lean" into their chi sao more and mix it up with strikes alot more than what is typically seen.

[KPM]

apologies...operator error...ie me

here it is:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=AKkp19KV9xg

best

--Thanks! That worked! :) Good video! I have Alan's new series of vids on my Christmas wish list.

[Alan Orr]

As an outsider looking in, it seems that they "lean" into their chi sao more and mix it up with strikes alot more than what is typically seen.

Yes, it is common for people to think we are just leaning in. We are not. In fact we press our hips and use the whole body to root and control power. This is called linking skills, then we have delinking skills. The delinking is to stop the opponent taking your balance. Wing Chun as a lot of stikes. Only some styles seem to limit their methods. In the Chu Sau Lei system we do not limit our striking as long as we have the core principles in place.

My best

Alan

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yes, it is common for people to think we are just leaning in. We are not. In fact we press our hips and use the whole body to root and control power. This is called linking skills, then we have delinking skills. The delinking is to stop the opponent taking your balance. Wing Chun as a lot of stikes. Only some styles seem to limit their methods. In the Chu Sau Lei system we do not limit our striking as long as we have the core principles in place.

My best

Alan

Yes, I see that, I have your dvd series, the NHB one, do like it very much by the way.

[Alan Orr]

Yes, I see that, I have your dvd series, the NHB one, do like it very much by the way.

Cool, thank you.

My best

Alan

[reneritchie]

(facing left <- )

\ = lean

( = mistaken for lean

[Gooseman]

Alan.
I find your mini clips refreshing and specific and this one exemplifies that ethos.
However, I am aware that you are a great believer in 'alive' training, the chi sau demos on you tube with Neil as your partner all give you a platform to demonstrate multiple intent striking, but Neil only ever rolls. In this clip he only makes one actual attempt to offer you anything significant. Please dont see this as a blight on your work, it just for me adds to the collection of one sided teacher/pupil clips on the net.

Good luck with the up and coming MMA comps.
Steve G.

[Alan Orr]

Alan.
I find your mini clips refreshing and specific and this one exemplifies that ethos.
However, I am aware that you are a great believer in 'alive' training, the chi sau demos on you tube with Neil as your partner all give you a platform to demonstrate multiple intent striking, but Neil only ever rolls. In this clip he only makes one actual attempt to offer you anything significant. Please dont see this as a blight on your work, it just for me adds to the collection of one sided teacher/pupil clips on the net.

Good luck with the up and coming MMA comps.
Steve G.


Hi Steve

Thanks for your feedback. It make look like Neil is not trying to hit me back and just rolling, but in fact he was trying to hit me as much as he could!! The thing is when you have structure control you are always pressing and controling your opponenets balance and position. I know its hard to see, but I am putting Neil under much more pressure that you can see.Therefore he never has the correct balance to strike and when he trys to strike I am therefore already ahead of him. We don't play a trade game in Chi Sao within our system. Neil would like nothing better that to hit me! I think thats why he gives his opponents such a hard time in his Pro MMA fights LOL! Someone has to pay.

Try to get down to see us some time. It is a different feel.

My best

Alan

[Wu Wei Wu]

Alan,

I always try to give props were someone has impressed me. I enjoyed the clip. Good use of forward pressure. At one stage I think your partner was lifted and pushed because of your position.

One thing I really enjoyed was the fact that Chi Sau was being used as a forum to work clinch moves and dirty boxing. Wing Chun people should take note!

WWW

[Ali. R]

Hi Guys

A clip demo of Chi Sao from my new series

http://youtube.com/watch?v=N7S1WFuZieo

This is Chu Sai Lei Wing Chun and the way we train our Chi Sao.

I'm not going full speed or full power as this is training Chi Sao.

If you have a eye for chinese martial skills you will see the control of stance and position.

My best

Alan



:D Interesting...

[Liddel]

I enjoyed the clip Alan.

Personally i found your example on Pak Da or blocking and striking to be an excellent example for others...

Ive often posted about my POV of people overcomplicating VT ....and to my younger training partners :rolleyes:

This is but one negitive bi product of the over emphasis on Chi Sao IME.

People tend to apply several actions in a situation that need only warrent one in a real situation. It also crosses over to demos where one punch meets three chunner actions casting a shadow over the style cause of its lack of realism/ aliveness....

And then born from that, making your opponent play your game...working setups into specific actions.......launching a punch = meeting resistance/bridge = pak Da.....

Functional... ;)

DREW

[Ali. R]

I prefer too counterattack only, that’s if they like to attack me first… I believe that good “wing chun” or “chi sao” is to develop good defensive structure, fu*k a set up, just a waist of time and movement…

I prefer to block first and attack last (only when playing "chi sao")… Anyone can throw a punch, but can you stop one when it counts… Get it “chi sao” natural structure or energy block, the key word here is block not attack (sao = block)… :D

Can you truly neutralize and redirect what’s coming to you…

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=MFAII5o7SaI


Ali Rahim.

[Liddel]

fu*k a set up, just a waist of time and movement…

Id expect this to come from someone with little experience against skilled people.....

Moreover, in a style like VT where touch is the most important aspect !
You need set up actions for gaining the touch..... Sip, Wu, Mun, Da etc etc

Regardless...in this example Alan launches a punch which is blocked and he explains - leads into a position where you can use Pak to break the bridge. One of many options.

Its NOT a wasted movement AT ALL. It just happens that his oppponent is good enough to block said attack. (in this senario)

No block = successful action.



I prefer to block first and attack last (only when playing "chi sao")… Anyone can throw a punch, but can you stop one when it counts… Get it “chi sao” natural structure or energy block, the key word here is block not attack (sao = block)…

Ive had this discussion with Jim before. I was taught that in Chi Sao you block the hand first. In fighting catching the body is paramount....

This is because i believe Chi Sao should flow and continue to drill techniques.....so we are similar on that point.....Sparring is for hard hitting and Gor Sao Lux Sao for both IMO.

DREW

[Ali. R]

LOL… You don’t know me, so don’t pretend like you do… The guy that you see on the chi sao clip with me as been training for over 15 years in the wing chun system, and is very good in what he does…

You just need to feed and ask for the energy and work off the feel, no need to set up anything, you just need to run your techniques with structure and sensitivity and just let it come out, nothing prearranged, just working good structure and your stance…

What happens when you can’t set up your opponent? I think it takes more time to do so… Things are always changing and with ease, especially if one understands structure and stay close, and fight back…

When one tries too set up shots in chi sao, he has to do at least one or two movements too begin the set up, playing right into this statement here…


People tend to apply several actions in a situation that need only warrent one in a real situation. It also crosses over to demos where one punch meets three chunner actions casting a shadow over the style cause of its lack of realism/ aliveness....


Set ups = more moves, just like you said unnecessary and unrealistic not practical, just way too much thought patter… …

"Chi Sao"/Chi = energy or natural structure/ sao = block + wedge or jam…

Ali Rahim.

[YungChun]

Ive had this discussion with Jim before. I was taught that in Chi Sao you block the hand first. In fighting catching the body is paramount....

I think there is a language barrier as well. Sometimes we mean the same thing, sometimes we think we do but don't...

The term 'setup' could mean a number of things.

I was taught essentially that in chisao you are always working off the error of the opponent........

We roll (low flow/pressure) and I work off of his energy/positional error. If he makes an error it will distort my structure--so I must correct this. I correct this by doing a technique (high flow/pressure on).

If he stops my technique--corrects his structure in time, then my technique is off. I could stop right there and reset to work on getting things right the first time.

Or, as many do, I could continue to press until I take the line. (camera rolling) Or he may do a technique.

In either case if I take the line I must maintain control with a following hand (second technique)(fansao)--and by control I mean the other guy can't counter me though he should be trying to (correct his structure) at an advanced level.

If I get the initial move and the fansao I am doing something right. At this point you could go for another fansao or not, a finishing move, leg traps, take downs, chokes, or not.

IMO the above is best done with actual power in the strikes. If there is no real power and no real resistance at advanced levels then the viability of the drill diminishes greatly and folks get caught up in touch me, kill me moves and working with an over cooperative partner--playing.

How one may express the above with technique, energy, footwork, finishing moves, etc will vary..

[Ali. R]

If one has good timing, no need for set ups... :D:cool::D

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=5RZmOpCgV9o


Ali Rahim.

[AmanuJRY]

You just need to feed and ask for the energy and work off the feel...

And that's not setting it up???

LOL!......to-may-to / to-ma-to.;)

[Ali. R]

And that's not setting it up???

LOL!......to-may-to / to-ma-to.;)


No, it’s called silent talk or listening, you let your structure work only off what you feel, not what you think you should do (hence setting up nothing)… :D

Feel: spontaneous/Set Up: too think or plan…

Ali Rahim.

[AmanuJRY]

No, it’ call silent talk or listening, you let your structure work only off what you feel, not what you think you should do (hence setting up nothing)… :D

Feel: spontaneous/Set Up: too think or plan…

Ali Rahim.

Whatever you want to call it...I call it a set-up, and it's not thought out or planned, just happens.:rolleyes:

I'm not going to argue semantics...like using cryptic language like 'silent talk'.:eek:

L8R!

[Ali. R]

The short bus must have a flat... :eek:


Ali Rahim.

[Wu Wei Wu]

Sometimes in order to understand the worth of something, we need an example of something else which is in bleak contrast.

Alan, once again, thanks for posting a good example of Chi Sao (WITH STRUCTURE)!

To Ali, thanks for posting a clip which is in stark contrast to Alan's.

[AmanuJRY]

The short bus must have a flat... :eek:


Ali Rahim.

Yeah...'cause I'm retarded.....nice veiled insult....:rolleyes:

[Graychuan]

As an outsider looking in, it seems that they "lean" into their chi sao more and mix it up with strikes alot more than what is typically seen.



My thoughts exactly on the leaning. Which leads me to ask...where is the structure if there is leaning? I can understand maintaining the forward energy but a Jut would snatch you right out of that frame. How can the YGKYM moving stance support the upper body when the upper body is ahead of the stance?

[Wu Wei Wu]

I haven't trained with Alan nor anyone connected with him. Even I can recognize the difference between a lean and someone using body structure. The difference is that the engine is still driven from the connection with the ground. If it is wrongly assumed that a person leans then they also assume that the operator is top heavy and therefore susceptible to lap, jut, lan or any other pulling type hand. I am willing to bet that this isn't the case here. Structure is driven from the ground upwards. The hip controls and absorbs the force issued by the opponent.

Therefore I would once again suggest that Alan's mechanics are good.

[Graychuan]

I haven't trained with Alan nor anyone connected with him. Even I can recognize the difference between a lean and someone using body structure. The difference is that the engine is still driven from the connection with the ground. If it is wrongly assumed that a person leans then they also assume that the operator is top heavy and therefore susceptible to lap, jut, lan or any other pulling type hand. I am willing to bet that this isn't the case here. Structure is driven from the ground upwards. The hip controls and absorbs the force issued by the opponent.

Therefore I would once again suggest that Alan's mechanics are good.

I'm with you on the whole 'engine driven from the ground thing'. But how is there a connection to the ground when there is a lean. If you are to truly have CHUM in all of the six bows then how can you have structure in a lean? To my experience and from the way I am taught, this is impossible.

Do we lean in SLT?
Do we lean in Chum Kil?
Do we use the Muk Yan Jong to hold us up as we are doing the form?

I am not taught to do this. Now Ill agree that this is a good demo but there is leaning there and a lean can be exploited.

[Wu Wei Wu]

You said:

Do we lean in SLT?
Do we lean in Chum Kil?
Do we use the Muk Yan Jong to hold us up as we are doing the form?

I am not taught to do this. Now Ill agree that this is a good demo but there is leaning there and a lean can be exploited.

I say:

No, you don't lean when doing SLT, nor CK, nor the Jong. When you train each of these, you are fighting air and imaginary men.

This was a clip of working structure AGAINST RESISTANCE.

[sihing]

You said:

Do we lean in SLT?
Do we lean in Chum Kil?
Do we use the Muk Yan Jong to hold us up as we are doing the form?

I am not taught to do this. Now Ill agree that this is a good demo but there is leaning there and a lean can be exploited.

I say:

No, you don't lean when doing SLT, nor CK, nor the Jong. When you train each of these, you are fighting air and imaginary men.

This was a clip of working structure AGAINST RESISTANCE.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84_BXI-e73A&mode=related&search= , I see no leaning here, but rather a form of "moving structure", and alot of resistance as well.

Just something to compare too:)

[Wu Wei Wu]

Sihing,

That is a v good clip of Chi Sao. And yes, it contains structure. WSL mechanics definitely have a slightly different flavour from other lineages. This clip doesn't take anything away from Alan's clip. It is just another example of good Chi Sao.

WWW

[sihing]

Sihing,

That is a v good clip of Chi Sao. And yes, it contains structure. WSL mechanics definitely have a slightly different flavour from other lineages. This clip doesn't take anything away from Alan's clip. It is just another example of good Chi Sao.

WWW

Correct, the clip I provided doesn't take anything away from what Alan showed on his clip, different approaches:) My reason for posting it was when you answered the question regarding "leaning" and the forms, you said there is no leaning in the forms due to no resistence being present, to which I got the impression from you that there should be when resistence is applied. In the clip I posted there was lots of resistence present but still no sign of "leaning", so even if there is resistence the essence of the forms still stays in tact regarding structure and alignment IMO, but different strokes for different folks:)

James

[aaron baum]

hi guys..i am one of alans students...

its not a lean...in SLT there should be pressure...pressure created within your body by sinking, driving up through all the joints from the floor, expanding the chest...SLT teaches you to be able to absorb pressure from others and be able to nullify, attack or absorb without your structure being compromised...that is the first and most important lesson you need to learn...not many practitioners from other systems seem to understand this...sihing, your sifu gary lam is one of the few that seem to follow this path...

the body is taught to be like a bow....that is where the real WC power is developed and makes are system so powerful in striking when done properly.. a rather extreme example is this...neil my fellow student in an mma event...

http://www.alanorr.com/htdocs/articles/fightfactor.html

big picture in the middle of the page...

within SLT we train many mental methods in chu sau lei and one of these is linking and delinking...if you jut or try to pull my structure we can link our body and stop this, we can leak and strike, we can delink and let your jut energy go etc...one of the main differences between us and many others is that we know how to pull YOU or float YOU due to us training this bow pressure in our SLT...if you just stand in SLT and just do hand and arm movements without training your body structure you will have a very basic understanding of the real skill and power within WC...

best

aaron

[Liddel]

LOL… You don’t know me, so don’t pretend like you do…

Ali - i said "id expect" in my post.....i was not labeling you with anything.
If that was the case i would have said "you obviously have no fighting experience...blah blah" which i didnt.



The guy that you see on the chi sao clip with me as been training for over 15 years in the wing chun system, and is very good in what he does…

Bro...your on a tangent - im refering to the thread about Alans Chi Sao clip and your comment on my post, about "Setups". NOT YOUR CLIP :rolleyes:



You just need to feed and ask for the energy and work off the feel, no need to set up anything, you just need to run your techniques with structure and sensitivity and just let it come out, nothing prearranged, just working good structure and your stance…

Read Jims post... it seems like it a term problem.....Just as one example....
Gaining the touch in my book is about setting up a situation where you can utlise your VT.
I listed several actions i deem as setup actions in my tool box... Sip Sao first action on the dummy. Wu Sao used in every lineage. Mun Sao asking for touch when its lost....the list goes on.

If its not your cup of tea, fine... but saying its a waste of time IMO shows lack of experience with people BETTER than you. Cause IME you dont need to set up much when you out skill someone in sparring or chi sao......With better people than yourself tactics and strategy can bridge the gap IMO.... Setups can make techniques that dont work, sucessful in this situation.



What happens when you can’t set up your opponent? I think it takes more time to do so… Things are always changing and with ease, especially if one understands structure and stay close, and fight back…

You USE the kung Fu Bro... If i throw a shot high to the head and you block it, when my intention was to land a gut shot, which i launch and land almost immediatly..... i have set that situation up :rolleyes:
Now with regard to your comment if the high shot is not blocked i land a head shot....nothing wasted...

Obviously your idea of a "setup" and mine are different. Im using a "setup" for a means to an end, not just to say hey, i can do setups.....

The fact is that many actions lead into others ion a functional style. So setups IMO are inherent. If i throw a punch knowing you can pak it, it may have been so i can roll that parried action into a sucessful elbow... BLAM. LOL



Set ups = more moves, just like you said unnecessary and unrealistic not practical, just way too much thought patter… …


Nope, were on different pages.
Do you laucnh a pak during Poon Sao at any time ? No you roll and make the area your going to Pak move into the prefered space so as to perform a sucessful Pak, Which in most lineages is Just as the fook Sao rises (sticking) with your Tan turning to Bong... or thereabouts, you wouldnt Pak an empty space would you, conversly if you had to move in that instance without something to Pak youd just do something else.....

Your setting up space and timing in this situation.
Its just a term, which we obviously have a different meaning for...

DREW

[Wu Wei Wu]

James,

Perhaps I was unclear. I wrote the following previously.

Even I can recognize the difference between a lean and someone using body structure. The difference is that the engine is still driven from the connection with the ground. If it is wrongly assumed that a person leans then they also assume that the operator is top heavy and therefore susceptible to lap, jut, lan or any other pulling type hand. I am willing to bet that this isn't the case here. Structure is driven from the ground upwards. The hip controls and absorbs the force issued by the opponent.

For clarification I am not debating whether there is a lean, because I don't think it exists. The way I interpreted the clip was that I believe there to be good mechanics in place. Once again, the only way to check would be to roll with Alan.

In relation to my point that there is no leaning in SLT. Yes, that is correct. Neither is there any resistance in SLT, so to compare something 'live' like Chi Sao by saying 'this is how we do it in the forms' is flawed. The forms, as good as they are do not reveal what it is like to have an opponent in front of you. The forms are only a reference point for a principle laden system. But once the principles are understood, they should be pressure tested against resistance. This testing will reveal the most important aspects of the art such as; how to load and issue power, how to absorb, how to use footwork etc etc. On the loading and issuing of power, in WSL mechanics, one would for instance, use 'Lat Sau Jik Chung'. But this is just one way. The clip in question reveals another way (mistakenly described as a lean) which I believe is effective.

In short, good mechanics are not about look (lean/no lean, etc). Instead, they are about function.

This is perhaps as clear as mud but I hope you get an inkling of what I am attempting (in my rather inept way) to say.

[Alan Orr]

Alan,

I always try to give props were someone has impressed me. I enjoyed the clip. Good use of forward pressure. At one stage I think your partner was lifted and pushed because of your position.

One thing I really enjoyed was the fact that Chi Sau was being used as a forum to work clinch moves and dirty boxing. Wing Chun people should take note!

WWW

Thank you. Happy you are able to see the real use of structural skill.

My best

Alan

[Alan Orr]

I enjoyed the clip Alan.

Personally i found your example on Pak Da or blocking and striking to be an excellent example for others...

Ive often posted about my POV of people overcomplicating VT ....and to my younger training partners :rolleyes:

This is but one negitive bi product of the over emphasis on Chi Sao IME.

People tend to apply several actions in a situation that need only warrent one in a real situation. It also crosses over to demos where one punch meets three chunner actions casting a shadow over the style cause of its lack of realism/ aliveness....

And then born from that, making your opponent play your game...working setups into specific actions.......launching a punch = meeting resistance/bridge = pak Da.....

Functional... ;)

DREW


Hey Drew

Many thanks for you feedback. Yes, wing chun must be functional. I hope this idea of chi sao being more real rather that a dead drill helps others become more alive.

My best

Alan

ps I am all booked for NZ in March!

[LoneTiger108]

(facing left <- )

\ = lean

( = mistaken for lean

I'm also with the majority here and think the clip is a good one, leaning and all! Although by leaning, I'm actually referring to Rene's post, which I also think speaks volumes.

I see Alan 'bowing' his body ( not leaning \ almost squeezing, or sinking (chum) in his joints allowing a springing energy to move freely. Pushing with his core, not with his head. Mainly holding his own ground and pressuring forward most of the time and receiving with simple postures and manipulating for the rest.

His partner needs more training to give better feedback, and I'm sure he will learn this but not in this clip, not by only training like this. I'm sure Alan can take him there.

Alans way of teaching is a breath of fresh air, and I look forward to seeing more...