Core skills to be learned in chi sao

[Ultimatewingchun]

There are many. But one of them has to be coming in and pressuring your opponent's space. if you're just making a hit with no followup and control precisely because you haven't taken his space away - then you're inviting him to counter you by "leaving money on the table". (Similar in principle to what a good wrestler/grappler tries to do with a clinch).

So you can't afford to leave those openings when using wing chun. Because you're fighting very close - which means he can hit you back (or grab you) in a heartbeat if you're not diligent. So the system needs multiple unanswered hits achieved by controlling his space (and his balance)....so you must come in sharply and very aggressively once you control a line...

otherwise you're not much better than a boxer who hits with a jab or two and then backs out. He's inviting his opponent to recover and launch strikes/attacks of his own.

BUT WING CHUN KUNG FU IS A CLOSE RANGE INFIGHT...

that features short, quick, straight punches and other strikes that can be multipled if one is controlling whatever line he's working on...usually meaning one that leads to the vertical center of mass of your opponent (regardless of where his main centerline is facing).

So although we don't always followup on the same line as the first punch (ie.- the proverbial "chain punch attack")...nonetheless...you should be able to use something similar often enough if you've come into his space and have jammed him up.

Which is not to say that you never strike just once or twice on open lines (wherever they may be - at his center of mass or somewhere else)...at any given moment - because you do.

But one of the most important skills learned in chi sao is to TAKE CONTROL of a line (a path) that leads to hard targets on his body and PRESSURE FORWARD while attacking with multiple strikes on that line. Which means that your entire body structure is attacking that "point" on his body. Your legs are driving to that place, your hips, and of course your elbow and hand. So that there's follow through at impact with everything you've got - with your elbow and the bottom three knuckles of your (usually) vertical fist at the forefront. (or perhaps your palm or the ridge of your hand).

One of the most important CORE PRINCIPLES/SKILLS one learns during chi sao when training in wing chun.

Go in with your whole body and take his space away...the space he'll need to attack you or defend against you. Take control of it. You own it - and now you're going to force the issue because you've taken control of the line - and you've done so with your other skills developed in chi sao).

But if you're not taking his space away at every opportunity (and constantly looking to create such opportunities) - you're not doing wing chun. You're bouncing in-and-out of wing chun and something else (ie.- boxing) unnecessarily. But with these skills - which are primarily developed within chi sao practice - you can end a confrontation very quickly.

More to be said about this and other core principles later.

[YungChun]

But one of the most important skills learned in chi sao is to TAKE CONTROL of a line (a path) that leads to hard targets on his body and PRESSURE FORWARD while attacking with multiple strikes on that line. Which means that your entire body structure is attacking that "point" on his body. Your legs are driving to that place, your hips, and of course your elbow and hand. So that there's follow through at impact with everything you've got - with your elbow and the bottom three knuckles of your (usually) vertical fist at the forefront. (or perhaps your palm or the ridge of your hand).
And now we begin to see how WCK strikes control.......:cool:.

[Ali. R]

There are many. But one of them has to be coming in and pressuring your opponent's space. if you're just making a hit with no followup and control precisely because you haven't taken his space away - then you're inviting him to counter you by "leaving money on the table". (Similar in principle to what a good wrestler/grappler tries to do with a clinch).

So you can't afford to leave those openings when using wing chun. Because you're fighting very close - which means he can hit you back (or grab you) in a heartbeat if you're not diligent. So the system needs multiple unanswered hits achieved by controlling his space (and his balance)....so you must come in sharply and very aggressively once you control a line...

otherwise you're not much better than a boxer who hits with a jab or two and then backs out. He's inviting his opponent to recover and launch strikes/attacks of his own.

BUT WING CHUN KUNG FU IS A CLOSE RANGE INFIGHT...

that features short, quick, straight punches and other strikes that can be multipled if one is controlling whatever line he's working on...usually meaning one that leads to the vertical center of mass of your opponent (regardless of where his main centerline is facing).

So although we don't always followup on the same line as the first punch (ie.- the proverbial "chain punch attack")...nonetheless...you should be able to use something similar often enough if you've come into his space and have jammed him up.

Which is not to say that you never strike just once or twice on open lines (wherever they may be - at his center of mass or somewhere else)...at any given moment - because you do.

But one of the most important skills learned in chi sao is to TAKE CONTROL of a line (a path) that leads to hard targets on his body and PRESSURE FORWARD while attacking with multiple strikes on that line. Which means that your entire body structure is attacking that "point" on his body. Your legs are driving to that place, your hips, and of course your elbow and hand. So that there's follow through at impact with everything you've got - with your elbow and the bottom three knuckles of your (usually) vertical fist at the forefront. (or perhaps your palm or the ridge of your hand).

One of the most important CORE PRINCIPLES/SKILLS one learns during chi sao when training in wing chun.

Go in with your whole body and take his space away...the space he'll need to attack you or defend against you. Take control of it. You own it - and now you're going to force the issue because you've taken control of the line - and you've done so with your other skills developed in chi sao).

But if you're not taking his space away at every opportunity (and constantly looking to create such opportunities) - you're not doing wing chun. You're bouncing in-and-out of wing chun and something else (ie.- boxing) unnecessarily. But with these skills - which are primarily developed within chi sao practice - you can end a confrontation very quickly.

More to be said about this and other core principles later.



All I hear is; attack, attack and more attacks…

What ever happen too “sao” (block or redirect)… Can one stop a shot when it counts? That’s a good question for any fighting art system; you can’t do that, if you are only thinking attacks, meaning you’re never become a door wedge because your stance will always be on the move before you controlled any fighting lines (offensively and defensively)…

You must have a very strong understanding of defense (blocks) too truly learn ones limitation as a fighter, because my 8 year old nephew can throw a punch, but can he truly weather the storm… The wing chun system has way more defensive moves then offensive, at least in the system that I train in (defense - around 80%/ offense - around 20%), almost everything is “sao”…

Train defensively first and offensively last (but the quick fix always gets in the way)…



Ali Rahim.

[YungChun]

All I hear is; attack, attack and more attacks…

What ever happen too “sao” (block or redirect)… Can one stop a shot when it counts? That’s a good question for any fighting art system; you can’t do that, if you are only thinking attacks, meaning you’re never become a door wedge because your stance will always be on the move before you controlled any fighting lines (offensively and defensively)…

You must have a very strong understanding of defense (blocks) too truly learn ones limitation as a fighter, because my 8 year old nephew can throw a punch, but can he truly weather the storm… The wing chun system has way more defensive moves then offensive, at least in the system that I train in (defense - around 80%/ offense - around 20%), almost everything is “sao”…

Train defensively first and offensively last (but the quick fix always gets in the way)…


Ali Rahim.

Defense and Offense in WCK are 1, part of the whole...

The attacking hand defends...

Make three movements together.....

We receive the attack with our counter attack...

[Ali. R]

Defense and Offense in WCK are 1, part of the whole...

The attacking hand defends...

Make three movements together.....

We receive the attack with our counter attack...


That’s very true, but not 100% of the time… Sometimes people are just too fast or may bring the element of surprise, where you just can’t “da, but only “yut fook yee… But yes, that is truly our goal… :)


Ali Rahim.

[YungChun]

That’s very true, but not 100% of the time… Sometimes people are just too fast or may bring the element of surprise, where you just can’t “da, but only “yut fook yee… But yes, that is truly are goal… :)


Ali Rahim.
And then the timing changes.. Second action, etc... Sure we may have to recover too, might end up recovering in the hospital, but I do agree with an attacking mindset in fighting--when he attacks I am thinking attack--when I attack I am thinking attack, albeit some defensive elements are also there.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Attack is always the best form of defense. But without the proper training - and without an extensive knowledge of all the wing chun principles, strategies, and techniques that are involved in both attack and defense...

one can get stuck in the mistaken mindset that it's better to let him make the first move and then I can counter him.

Wrong.

This only works against someone who's not that skilled and you are. But if you're up against someone with good fighting skills (and in real life this is not really possible to know very often)...

then you better make it your business to attack first and let him play defense. Not recklessly, of course - but attack with skill.

[Ali. R]

one can get stuck in the mistaken mindset that it's better to let him make the first move and then I can counter him.

Wrong..


No where have you ever seen me post a statement that one should only defend and not hit first, it is what it is “self-defenses, not self-offenses… Wing Chun has more defensive movements then offensive…

So why not master the hard stuff first :confused:

Striking should be easy for almost everyone, what a waste of time…



Ali Rahim.

[YungChun]

Wing Chun has more defensive movements then offensive…

That's because they all go with the same DA! LOL

Seriously, IMO it's a mistake to separate defense and offense in this system.. The offense is blended with the defense as it must for real application.. This blend may not always be the same hand, in the same beat or be the same tools but when one is defensive (Yin) it's only to serve the purpose of it's other half (Yang).. When done right they blur into one 'thing' IMO.

[Ali. R]

That's because they all go with the same DA! LOL

Seriously, IMO it's a mistake to separate defense and offense in this system.. The offense is blended with the defense as it must for real application...


LOL,LOL... :eek:

You have too learn all the blocks in the system very well (that’s all I’m saying), before the system is truly understood, and one will not have the “da” all the time, so will have too understand “yut fook yee” one hand traps two, because one is not guaranteed an opening every time one attacks or defend and should not force anything…

But should know the weapons very well, so one can spontaneously react with another weapon if needed... :confused:

What happens when one can’t get the strike in or out? Do you block the hand that’s coming to you or do just you just run away? No, you block the shot so you can throw another strike, then the "da" will come naturally on the next go round...


Ali Rahim.

[Wayfaring]

One of the most important CORE PRINCIPLES/SKILLS one learns during chi sao when training in wing chun.


You left off one essential core chi sao skill. How to talk smack ;)

[Ali. R]

You left off one essential core chi sao skill. How to talk smack ;)

I know that's right...

It's only being done here, everyone else is on subject... :cool:


Take Care,


Ali Rahim.

[k gledhill]

VT is a system to develop an attack correctly :D

1st we train each arm to be able to strike along our centers to an off angle we attack

tan & jum arent blocks ...and they dont leave the centerline . they are a core basic level training position to develop a 2 handed attack ...simple , each arm capable ON ITS OWN :D
of delivering 2 forces , lateral and linear in rotation outside a given line of force....a-b


that is plan A

plan B is using anothe raction to clear a path to get back to plan A ,,, pak , bong., jut, ...gaun....

If I attack you for 9 seconds in a 10 second fight I raise the odds in my favour ..if I start by being a counter attacker I increase even more ...:D

if I attack your attack in the same beat....its just a percentage game no absolutes .


if you train to x the line using arm chasing lateral blocks like windshield wipers against driving rain...you will get wet ;)

you might block some , but its better to avoid the line of the rain coming at you altogether ...this way you dont need to think of blocking , just giving back the water ...a crashing wave .

when your wave crashes does it know how to maintain its flow , uninterupted ? thats what the VT system is teaching ..in a modulated manner ,,, piece by piece, chisao is just a part not the way.




the whole is simpler than the parts ; )

[YungChun]

VT is a system to develop an attack correctly :D

1st we train each arm to be able to strike along our centers to an off angle we attack

tan & jum arent blocks ...and they dont leave the centerline . they are a core basic level training position to develop a 2 handed attack ...simple , each arm capable ON ITS OWN :D
of delivering 2 forces , lateral and linear in rotation outside a given line of force....a-b


that is plan A

plan B is using anothe raction to clear a path to get back to plan A ,,, pak , bong., jut, ...gaun....

If I attack you for 9 seconds in a 10 second fight I raise the odds in my favour ..if I start by being a counter attacker I increase even more ...:D

if I attack your attack in the same beat....its just a percentage game no absolutes .


if you train to x the line using arm chasing lateral blocks like windshield wipers against driving rain...you will get wet ;)

you might block some , but its better to avoid the line of the rain coming at you altogether ...this way you dont need to think of blocking , just giving back the water ...a crashing wave .

when your wave crashes does it know how to maintain its flow , uninterupted ? thats what the VT system is teaching ..in a modulated manner ,,, piece by piece, chisao is just a part not the way.




the whole is simpler than the parts ; )
The whole thing is on the money with one issue I have.. The centerline does get wider IMO as range increases. "Long bridge" range the range most boxers specialize in is wider... I agree that in close range the above is correct in that we are always in attack timing or trying to recover that timing.. I think the same is true at longer range but that the tools and space change (elbow) to adapt.

[k gledhill]

we dont chase off the line [unless bil gee] if the distances require the front kick fills this void ...we maneuver our centers and line constantly ....to jink and feint the guy into a comittment , like any fight it frees us to flow with and as the fight happens , no set routines , no thinking 'what if' ? perimiters awaiting penetrtion
where the hole in the fence is is sometimes best left to the opponent to show us. Once inside its hard to get us out again :D if it is done correctly ...attack that is er I mean defend by attacking of course :rolleyes: I defended myself ,your honor, by er ah constantly hitting him into submission its my defense...:o

[HardWork8]

There are many. But one of them has to be coming in and pressuring your opponent's space. if you're just making a hit with no followup and control precisely because you haven't taken his space away - then you're inviting him to counter you by "leaving money on the table". (Similar in principle to what a good wrestler/grappler tries to do with a clinch).

So you can't afford to leave those openings when using wing chun. Because you're fighting very close - which means he can hit you back (or grab you) in a heartbeat if you're not diligent. So the system needs multiple unanswered hits achieved by controlling his space (and his balance)....so you must come in sharply and very aggressively once you control a line...

otherwise you're not much better than a boxer who hits with a jab or two and then backs out. He's inviting his opponent to recover and launch strikes/attacks of his own.

BUT WING CHUN KUNG FU IS A CLOSE RANGE INFIGHT...

that features short, quick, straight punches and other strikes that can be multipled if one is controlling whatever line he's working on...usually meaning one that leads to the vertical center of mass of your opponent (regardless of where his main centerline is facing).

So although we don't always followup on the same line as the first punch (ie.- the proverbial "chain punch attack")...nonetheless...you should be able to use something similar often enough if you've come into his space and have jammed him up.

Which is not to say that you never strike just once or twice on open lines (wherever they may be - at his center of mass or somewhere else)...at any given moment - because you do.

But one of the most important skills learned in chi sao is to TAKE CONTROL of a line (a path) that leads to hard targets on his body and PRESSURE FORWARD while attacking with multiple strikes on that line. Which means that your entire body structure is attacking that "point" on his body. Your legs are driving to that place, your hips, and of course your elbow and hand. So that there's follow through at impact with everything you've got - with your elbow and the bottom three knuckles of your (usually) vertical fist at the forefront. (or perhaps your palm or the ridge of your hand).

One of the most important CORE PRINCIPLES/SKILLS one learns during chi sao when training in wing chun.

Go in with your whole body and take his space away...the space he'll need to attack you or defend against you. Take control of it. You own it - and now you're going to force the issue because you've taken control of the line - and you've done so with your other skills developed in chi sao).

But if you're not taking his space away at every opportunity (and constantly looking to create such opportunities) - you're not doing wing chun. You're bouncing in-and-out of wing chun and something else (ie.- boxing) unnecessarily. But with these skills - which are primarily developed within chi sao practice - you can end a confrontation very quickly.

More to be said about this and other core principles later.

Good post. The importance of taking an opponent's space can never be overstated.

Will you be posting anything on the "listenting hands" aspect of Chi Sao any time soon? It is an interesting area to look into as regards the sticky hands training and this is also a very important aspect of Chi Sao, and not just in Wing Chun, but in other kung fu styles, which have their own version of Chi Sao.

[HardWork8]

one can get stuck in the mistaken mindset that it's better to let him make the first move and then I can counter him.

I am afraid that I don't follow that line of thinking or at least it is not a "mistaken mindset". It does however depend on the situation. If you are outnumbered and cannot escape, then it is better to make the first strike, otherwise, many of us will wait the first move to come from the attacker. I believe this is part of the principle of "if you don't move, I don't move, if you move, then I first move", meaning that he makes the first move, but you the defender gets there first.

This is a valid kung fu concept.


This only works against someone who's not that skilled and you are. But if you're up against someone with good fighting skills (and in real life this is not really possible to know very often)...

The philosophy, behind what I described is that the attacker puts himself at a disadvantage by making the first move. Here, the counter attacker has the advantage. I see the point though, that if there is GREAT difference in skill, then obviously the one who hits first will have the advantage.

The way I have been taught however, is to wait (with a calm mind), and react to the potential opponent, taking advantage of the opportunities that his attack will present.

I say potential, because sometimes when one doesn't make the first move, no fight happens. Lot of potential attackers just yap and yap and will not attack if faced by a calm and confident opponent.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"The philosophy, behind what I described is that the attacker puts himself at a disadvantage by making the first move." (Hardwork)


***THIS is simply not true when you're up against a good fighter. He puts himself at an advantage if he attacks first - as long as his attack is skillful.

Do you play chess?

Why does WHITE have the advantage? Because he moves first. And it's assumed that he's skilled, so don't expect him to make a dumb move. So with a skillful first move - the other guy is on defense. It's the same with fighting.

..............................................

Now as for "listening hands" - I probably know the concept under a different name. Could you explain what you mean by this? Are you talking about mon sao (asking hands)?

...........................................

"Seriously, IMO it's a mistake to separate defense and offense in this system.. The offense is blended with the defense as it must for real application.. This blend may not always be the same hand, in the same beat or be the same tools but when one is defensive (Yin) it's only to serve the purpose of it's other half (Yang).. When done right they blur into one 'thing' IMO." (Yung Chun/Jim)


***CORRECT.

[HardWork8]

I don't disagree that hitting may sometimes be the only option,as I stated here.



I see the point though, that if there is GREAT difference in skill, then obviously the one who hits first will have the advantage.

But idea of "hitting first, being the best way to win", is not a universal truth. If you are facing a fantastic fighter, and if you are not one, then hitting first is the sensible option, or as always if you are set upon by more than one attacker, but the way I have been trained, has led me to follow the philosophy of counter attack and that this approach will even give me an advantage over fighters who may be a little better than me, as they are most vulnerable at that very moment of attack.

At the end of the day it is the case of whatever works. However, what I have described is not my idea, but a kung fu school of thought, "if you don't move, I don't move, if you move, I first move".

[Ultimatewingchun]

"The centerline does get wider IMO as range increases. 'Long bridge' range the range most boxers specialize in is wider... I agree that in close range the above is correct in that we are always in attack timing or trying to recover that timing.. I think the same is true at longer range but that the tools and space change (elbow) to adapt." (Yung Chun/Jim)

***OF COURSE THE CENTERLINE has to be wider at long ranges. Otherwise you're extremely vulnerable to round attacks. In fact, this "wideness" is part of what we refer to as the Central Line in TWC. But in addition to this "horizontal" wideness - in TWC we have vertical lines along this "wideness" that run down your body through your chest lines and through your shoulder lines (in addition to your main centerline).

So both the vertical and horizontal lines form a kind of GRID in front of you that you need to work on at virtually all times - although the closer you get to him the more you can just focus on attacking along your main centerline.

And in my experience using you left arm to attack/defend against his right arm and your right arm to attack/defend against his left arm...on these lines that form the GRID...is absolutely essential to making wing chun functional against any skilled fighter with good hands (like a boxer or kickboxer).

And why is that?

Because you can't afford to assume that he's going to give you a two-on-one advantage for yourself (ie.- he straight punches with his left and you tan da by getting to the outside of his punch with your left hand tan...as just one example).

This will rarely happen against a good boxer type.

[HardWork8]

Now as for "listening hands" - I probably know the concept under a different name. Could you explain what you mean by this? Are you talking about mon sao (asking hands)?

Listening Hands, simply refers to the sensitivity of the hands to read the opponents intention. This is one of the skills that the Chi Sao should develop.

This skill can be as basic as touching your opponent in a basket ball game, just to see which direction they'll choose to move, or it can be as high as to let you neutralize someone who has just grabbed to throw you, because you seem to know which way he wants to throw you before, he does, making the slight body adjustments to stop him.

Another higher level application of listening hands could be, to "listen" to the force of the punch you have just blocked and if feeling that it is too strong and will collapse your structure, to then let go, before you counter attack. This skill would be very usefull against a powerful boxing type hook punch.

In real combat the listening hands will tell you, your opponents next move, of course after the bridge has been established. This is one of the ways where you will feel his attack coming and will counter attack before his attack gets to you or even before he launches it, i.e. "....if you move, I first move".

Real "listening" ability does not come only from Chi Sao, but also, among other things, regular Chi Kung practice, to develop the "softness" - to be distinguished from floppiness. In the long term the same "softness" will also increase your speed and the (penetrative) power of your strikes, but that is another area.

The "softer" the hands in Chi Sao, the more the listening sensation.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Listening Hands, simply refers to the sensitivity of the hands to read the opponents intention. This is one of the skills that the Chi Sao should develop."


***OF COURSE.

[HardWork8]

"Listening Hands, simply refers to the sensitivity of the hands to read the opponents intention. This is one of the skills that the Chi Sao should develop."


***OF COURSE.

And of course, this links with the softness that requires almost infinite amount of training, as there are so many levels. This softness, in turn, relates and contributes to the penetrative power of kung fu strikes.

Isn't the art we practice wonderful? :)

[Ultimatewingchun]

I wrote the following as part of the opening post on this thread:

"Go in with your whole body and take his space away...the space he'll need to attack you or defend against you. Take control of it. You own it - and now you're going to force the issue because you've taken control of the line - and you've done so with your other skills developed in chi sao...More to be said about this and other core principles later."

***WANT to talk about some of those "other skills developed in chi sao" that will help you take control of the lines (paths) you'll need to beat this guy - in a real confrontation.

And one such other skill is the ability to remove his arms/hands from the line you want to own/occupy/control/move in and attack on.

1) When you're rolling in chi sao it's important to not only cover/occupy your centerline (and return to it if he takes one or both of your hands off it) - but also you must roll with a slight forward energy...but done without leading or leaning with your head or body - except the MIDDLE of your body.

2) You must do more than just roll with forward energy and the sensitivity to return to the line if he takes you off it, ie.- "soft hands" doesn't mean butter hands - it should mean RELAXED (as opposed to tense muscles) - but with some forward force and energy.

And this "more" means taking one or both of his hands OFF his centerline (either to the left, right, high, low - or any combination thereof)...as well as using forward energy.

And this is one of those times when wing chun becomes an ART as well as a SCIENCE.

Knowing how to take him off (as your going forward with your energy)...WITHOUT going too far and therefore leaving yourself open to a counter attack.

FURTHERMORE....you should also know and practice the "counter to his counters"...ie.- I will take him off the line and hit him if he doesn't react in time or reacts with an inappropriate move...AND...if he reacts with such-and-such a counter that does make sense (from his point of view) - then I have to react WITH THIS OR THAT appropriate next move(s).

So that I'm back on offense and he's back on defense.

Like a good chess game. But one meant to do damage.

AND THEN...you must constantly spar (no more chi sao for awhile) and use these concepts and techniques by adapting them to a more realistic fight situation - as chi sao is just a drill.

(Hope to post some chi sao vids in the near future to demonstrate more clearly what I've been saying so far on this thread).

[KPM]

One of the basic principles of WCK that I was taught is "forward pressure." To me that also suggests a certain aggressiveness, not the idea of sitting back and waiting to see what the opponent will do.... or being a "counter-fighter." So "listening" would amount to gauging how the opponent reacts to your attack and then responding appropriately. IMHO, one should be constantly pressuring the opponent to off-balance him and "occupy his space." You shouldn't sit back passively and simply respond to his attacks, whether in Chi Sau or real fighting. Just my 2 cents.

[Buddha_Fist]

We have only X amount of time. So how do we spend it?

If I spend it only training the attack: I will be pretty good at it. I will be training a juicy punch with full-body support (hip, footwork), shortburst at will, I will train delivering it at different angles surfing through the opponent's ever changing line of defense, I will train timing, footwork angles, I will train to keep balance throughout all my actions, I will compromise my opponent's balance at all times, I will be using different tools to unite my body's actions into one focused action, etc...

If I spend it only training defense: I will be training to chase hands before I actually attack, I will be training to postpone the inevitable if my opponent only attacks: my downfall, I will be training to be reactive instead of proactive (in the chaos of the fight you cannot afford to have a split second less of time than your opponent - honestly speaking), etc... But did I train the main tool, the punch? I've seen too many times that this kind of training only leads to wrestling-like Chi-Sao with no focused goal. It just looks like **** unless one of the two is far less skilled and freezes half-way through so the other guy looks apparently decent on the vid. This does rarely translate into real skill immediately transferrable to sparring and fighting. A waste of time in my point of view. Fat people with flowery hands and big mouths but no conditioned serious fighter.

Remember the fight of the Wing Chun guy Asbel Cancio against Dave Beneteau?

So... which pill do you choose, the blue or the red? Are you training to victimize or to be victim? ;)




Emil

[Matrix]

We have only X amount of time. So how do we spend it?

If I spend it only training the attack: I will be pretty good at it. I will be training a juicy punch with full-body support (hip, footwork), shortburst at will, I will train delivering it at different angles surfing through the opponent's ever changing line of defense, I will train timing, footwork angles, I will train to keep balance throughout all my actions, I will compromise my opponent's balance at all times, I will be using different tools to unite my body's actions into one focused action, etc...

If I spend it only training defense:. .....<SNIP>

So... which pill do you choose, the blue or the red? Are you training to victimize or to be victim?
Hey Emil,

I think your post is right on the mark. :cool:

I hear that your training is going well. No surprise there, especially since you have such a great coach.

Bill

[HardWork8]

One of the basic principles of WCK that I was taught is "forward pressure." To me that also suggests a certain aggressiveness, not the idea of sitting back and waiting to see what the opponent will do.... or being a "counter-fighter." So "listening" would amount to gauging how the opponent reacts to your attack and then responding appropriately. IMHO, one should be constantly pressuring the opponent to off-balance him and "occupy his space." You shouldn't sit back passively and simply respond to his attacks, whether in Chi Sau or real fighting. Just my 2 cents.

You are right about the "forward pressure"; the constant pressuring of the opponent..; occupying his space; but, what I am saying, or at least in the way I have been trained, is that, all the above are triggered by HIS initial move.

He starts, but you finish, using all of the above concepts.

[HardWork8]

We have only X amount of time. So how do we spend it?

If I spend it only training defense: I will be training to chase hands

From the first day of chi sao training, I was told not to chase hands, it was find the opening and hit and keep hitting, no playing around.



I will be training to be reactive instead of proactive

You can be both reactive, and proactive.


(in the chaos of the fight you cannot afford to have a split second less of time than your opponent - honestly speaking),

And that is why it is always best to aim at getting a high level of "listening" ability. Not easy, but when you have it, it will give you the edge.




So... which pill do you choose, the blue or the red? Are you training to victimize or to be victim? ;)

I am training to victimize the victimizer.:D

[Ultimatewingchun]

is another core principle/skill developed within chi sao training. And in order to do this you have to give up the idea that you should never "chase hands".

Against a good fighter if you're firing punches he will react by blocking/parrying/grabbing...and you must react accordingly - including grabbing/manipulating his arms in order to keep the pressure on/free your hands to continue striking/open up and find new lines to strike upon/manipulate his body and balance (including looking for a two-on-one arm advantage while looking for the angles needed to continue pressuring and striking)....or to just continue striking regardless of a two-on-one or not.

This all requires a very shifty, quick, mobile, and interruptable footwork and body angling.

So what about "chasing hands"? Again...the ART comes into play just as much as the SCIENCE. You have to know when to disengage completely and return back to the engagement and strike on another line...and...you have to know when to grab his arms/body and manipulate him right there on that original line of engagement.

And also be ready to get into clinch fighting with tie ups/elbow strikes/knee strikes/dirty boxing grab & punch attacks, sweeps, throws, etc.

Whether or not it's part of what you've been "taught" chi sao training is supposed to be.

Because at this range (very close) anything can happen.

[t_niehoff]

is another core principle/skill developed within chi sao training. And in order to do this you have to give up the idea that you should never "chase hands".


The prohibition of "chasing hands" is in my view is part of the "conventional wisdom" that was never a part of the kuit/faat but has nonetheless been passed down and taken for granted. It is greatly over-emphasized.



Against a good fighter if you're firing punches he will react by blocking/parrying/grabbing...


No, a good fighter won't block or parry, he'll hit back. A good fighter won't be defensive. If he grabs you, it will be t do something offensive, like take you down.



and you must react accordingly - including grabbing/manipulating his arms in order to keep the pressure on/free your hands to continue striking/open up and find new lines to strike upon/manipulate his body and balance (including looking for a two-on-one arm advantage while looking for the angles needed to continue pressuring and striking)....or to just continue striking regardless of a two-on-one or not.


Isn't that "chasing hands"? ;)

I actually agree with much of what you are saying -- in contact fighting, taking the angle is important, which is just part of controlling the opponent (taking the angle aids in this). In my WCK, I seek to control the opponent whether through whatever, limb, torso, head, I have contact with (kuit: fist goes out but does not come back).



This all requires a very shifty, quick, mobile, and interruptable footwork and body angling.


It requires good body structure and an understanding (which comes from experience) of leverage and momentum.



So what about "chasing hands"? Again...the ART comes into play just as much as the SCIENCE. You have to know when to disengage completely and return back to the engagement and strike on another line...and...you have to know when to grab his arms/body and manipulate him right there on that original line of engagement.


And also be ready to get into clinch fighting with tie ups/elbow strikes/knee strikes/dirty boxing grab & punch attacks, sweeps, throws, etc.


You have to have the WCK in-fighting, attached (contact) strategy, the tactics necessary toimplement that strategy, and tools/skills to implement the tactics.



Whether or not it's part of what you've been "taught" chi sao training is supposed to be.

Because at this range (very close) anything can happen.

Chi sao will never prepare you for fighting. It is only a learning platform.

[YungChun]

Most of the time the sticking is inadvertent and leading to the point where you don't need to stick or control a limb per se and instead unleash the full body power continuous attack that Kevin talks about--attacking the line A, clearing the line B. Very are few showing that, talking about that and instead a lot of talking about disembodied parts of the whole..

ChiSao IMO is more about learning not to stick--to find the path of no resistance. The "we never chase hands" isn't never, it talks about the target--the true objective. In any case, more often than not if you have the "choice" to hit to the center or chase his hand, especially when it leaves the line--in the next half beat the correct move is to hit, and keep hitting and hitting...the center, with the continuous attack (water hose) and as Victor has mentioned with the whole body attacking that single point, whether angles, lines change or not. The goal of WCK is not to tie up your hands it's to hit and hit and hit... Very little of this are we seeing hearing about in ChiSao, nor are we seeing the 'blend' of offense and defense as one that is so critical, borrowing energy for attack--changing, nor do we see the power release vectored into the core, fan sao (last move sets up next move) and structure/balance destruction..

[k gledhill]

The BASE ROOT idea is to develop the arms capability to do a double action in one beat striking ALONE ....ie one arm that can both defelct off & along our line as it angles ....while the other arm follows suit..but with another side of the forearm as it does.

Dan chi sholdnt utilize the wrists for this reason, as many do using a wrist dropping vusao
this will take the development away from a striking interception to a requirement to stick and control redundantly INSIDE chi-sao.

The core to me isnt to develop sticking 2 handed facing rolling like we see in some clips ; )....but to develop the idea of the system .

Once an angle / flank is adopted fighting , it becomes apparent that we only need one arm leading and one back if trained correctly. Because that one striking arm is doing the job of the other hand by being placed in an angle and realtionship to the functioning 'reality ' of an arm it needs to bridge and strike over or under ....Once you reach an angle of attack /counter attack the arms NEVER need to leave the center line area ...except for the bilgee actions ...chum kil teaches ...pointing of the attack line , and how to regain the bridged arm as we do the attack.

If we train to use 2 hands to be at a permiter distncae requireing control and sticking BEFORE a contact strike then the idea being trained is , as I call it , 'wrisitng' . Wrisitng development is as bad if not worse than arm chasing.

Arm chasing is best described as reaching across a flanked arm with your rear arm to seek contact and a comfort feeling. instead of forcefull shots into the available areas. Sure as Victor ays we have to use everything swe can without thinking, this is why we have bil gee, it contains , to me, all the required ducking , wrist grab breaking, lopsaoing aka our own hand grab etc...


the redundancy of 2 arms used like a roll in chi-sao is obviously redundant and more akin to a clinching stylized rendition ...if we never face the bull [aka FORCE] , why train to touch its 2 horns ? or seek to reach across a flanked horn to touch/chase the other horn ? when it cant reach us ?
If the bull turns to face us we can use grabs to keep it going past its intended 'facing' and adopt the other side / horn seamlessly through our angling training to simply take the offered horn...
Sometimes as bil gee lop sao shows , we have to grab the bull by the horns to get a certain angle , BUT we then stab the bull repeatedly one dagger after the other , not hold onto the horns or fight the horn :D it is this letting go that that is reluctant in many because they lack the training to LET GO OF THE HORN and strike while holding a line that keeps the horn off us as we strike it.

most fights Ive had I only strike angling instinctively out of the way of the 'heavy bag ' coming right at me ...try hitting a heavy bag that you pushed away , as it comes back at you and you want to hit it ...you do several things
you dont stand in front with 2 arms extended as chi-sao....
you see timing /motion, the force is coming at you , what arm is it extending [ imagine]
you are in a certain space/time to use one arm over the other to get the 'best shot' avalable and move to angle your rear leg to support the aligned force to a point ..[seung ma -toi ma drills in chi-sao]
you strike as it comes...but do you hit the bag so it receives your full focused shot ? do you strike while still in its path ? or choose a side ?
or are you too close? did the force of contact knock YOU back ? did you hit to quickly ...this what chi-sao is for ..to check these things and train plan B as well as plan A, but B follows A ..in my alphabet anyway ; )

seung ma -toi ma drills are akin to this scenario / role...we dont seek to stick to a 2 armed heavy bag coming at us so we just start with 2 arms togetehr so each student can shift and randomly adopt a side /angle while maintaining the idea that once the fight starts it wont be from a double armed roll but on guard ..one lead one rear BULL FIGTING ole ' !!. Only each individual arm is acting like 2 as they rotate intoa strike after strike ..or if impeded 'clearing' or plan B 2 arms STILL in attack rotation but one forced for a millisecond to clear off the line ...only because the LINE is blocked ...to do this with unthinking knowledge we practice in chisao, pak, BONG, JUT , LOP ETCC sao and a strike, a real strike wont require you to stick to an arm attached to a falling body...or one that is being evasive .

[YungChun]

Dan chi sholdnt utilize the wrists for this reason, as many do using a wrist dropping vusao
In our dan chi sao the primary action is (B) clearing,(jut) when receiving the attack (palm) in order to then hit (A)..

The connection or initial contact point is correctly the wrist, the wrist is used in jut sao, to clear the line for the following (next) strike, a seed for fan sao, when later both hands are used...hit/clear/hit

No idea what a vusao is..

We don't face? What do we mean by face? No not face his face but face his flank.....Hand Unity

[CFT]

In our dan chi sao the primary action is (B) clearing,(jut) when receiving the attack (palm) in order to then hit (A)..

The connection or initial contact point is correctly the wrist, the wrist is used in jut sao, to clear the line for the following (next) strike, a seed for fan sao, when later both hands are used...hit/clear/hit

No idea what a vusao is..
vusao = wu sao (protecting hand)

Lun Gai (Foshan) teaches jum sau to receive the palm in daan chi sao. Contact is at the wrist, but the jum action is supported by the dropping of the elbow towards the centreline.

[YungChun]

vusao = wu sao (protecting hand)

Lun Gai (Foshan) teaches jum sau to receive the palm in daan chi sao. Contact is at the wrist, but the jum action is supported by the dropping of the elbow towards the centreline.
Same thing essentially IMO, clear/hit... In the case of jut the wrist drop helps open that space..

[k gledhill]

jut isnt the plan A .... call it jut or vu as some do ..it is meant to be JUM ..elbow in while striking , but done in 2 stages for the development....tan is the same, 1/2 of a strike IN TRAINING...the elbow starts and leaves the centerline and spreads out but the fist hits straight ....we adopt a vertical palm because the vertical palm allows the elbow to go OFF the line ...while side plams /jums do the opposite and maintain the line.

Jum and Tan arent static blocks , just training positions, many use them in sequences to respond to strikes like a kata ?? although one can use them anyway you need to.

the first action in DAN chi sao is jum to the tans strike ....the jum holds its position while the tan rcovers to receve and do bong ....a bridged arm does what ?

if you train to just strike in one unstopping action from jum/strike you see the idea...but adopt a jut or vu block 1st THEN strike and you wont ever see it..for 25-30 years ...
tan is used OUTSIDE as a strike wwhen the arm you intercepting is outside its line of attack ...the jum/strike follows behind or preceeding covering the inside line as it strikes ...this is the basic idea .a lot of chi-sao is correcting JUST THIS :D by feinting to see if yur breaking the idea to follow an arms detour ....when we adopt the flank idea as well you see the idea becoming more apparent ....

to wrist for ever or develop alignmnet of an unstoppable attack line ... simple genious.

2 arms covering a line in rotation by design angling to avoid force v force , always against 1 arm to our 2 in rotation ...we train to be able to deliver this idea ...


the WHOLE system is devoted to developing this from little idea , constantly growing in its profound simplicity to full fruition . The system is quality control for this idea and how to fight it ; )

[YungChun]

jut isnt the plan A .... call it jut or vu


I dunno bro, jut and wu are like way different... :confused: The jut is an action, wu a position or guard, the end result of jut is like jum or you can skip and just use the position. . But if it's not there you make the position/space with jut--the clearing action. Some folks use pak in a similar fashion..


it is meant to be JUM ..elbow in while striking

Well, jum depending on the usage and meaning could be a lot like the end product of jut but....jut/jum and the punch are different despite the fact that they can share a similar elbow position. . What is it we are doing? Hitting or clearing.. Or are you talking about clearing and hitting with this elbow position? All three have their time and place..


tan is the same, 1/2 of a strike IN TRAINING...the elbow starts and leaves the centerline and spreads out but the fist hits straight

Tan where the elbow fans out and the 'fist' hits straight? Or perhaps the Tan hits straight after a curve if you have fanned out the elbow? Very hard to see this in type... I agree you can hit with tan, I agree tan can clear, I agree the elbow may need to move out a bit sometimes...................


we adopt a vertical palm because the vertical palm allows the elbow to go OFF the line ...while side plams /jums do the opposite and maintain the line.

I see this as moving to outer parts of the 'center space'... We fill the center space when needed, some call this jamming but it may also be clearing, elbow out clearing, elbow in clearing, filling/clearing different parts of center space.


Jum and Tan arent static blocks..

Certainly not static..I don't even agree with the generally used term block, I think it is a complete misnomer.. The idea "practice our blocks" IMO is totally off. These moves take space and clear for the attack.


although one can use them anyway you need to.

Ah yes..


the first action in DAN chi sao is jum to the tans strike

I would have to see exactly what you are doing here. The structure sounds much the same.


if you train to just strike in one unstopping action from jum/strike you see the idea...but adopt a jut or vu block 1st THEN strike and you wont ever see it..for 25-30 years ...

I think this assumes that the *next* attack is always possible in the first action, IMO it is not--the jut action is a clear action used when needed to make space/take position and redirect energy.. ITC the transition from Fook to Jum is jut...

Just about everything is a clear, hit or fill... IMO.. Many different expressions.

[k gledhill]

jum is training a basic striking arms ability ...jut is plan B if the strike ..previously trained ...is interupted ...jut /jerk is the main response as opposed to lop because it allows forward maintined attack...lop is a movement off the line away from the attack line...not that we dont , just second choice if the line we meet cant be jutted or our bong isnt working....

dan chi-sao is the root development not plan B...many jump stright to plan B ....and use wristing in chi-sao because they never had the knives in the mix or weapons tactics. teaching from the bottom knowledge up rather than top knowledge down to bring up :D

some from who knows where ? second, third,tenth hand info ...chinese whispers , copying the next guy.

[YungChun]

jum is training a basic striking arms ability ...jut is plan B if the strike ..previously trained ...is interupted ...jut /jerk is the main response as opposed to lop because it allows forward maintined attack...lop is a movement off the line away from the attack line...not that we dont , just second choice if the line we meet cant be jutted or our bong isnt working....

If they resist jut I don't see lop as the reversal or conversion..

Jut can help us avoid jamming ourselves, and make space, change lines, redirect force, get off the line, etc, etc......

But at least we now acknowledge jut..


dan chi-sao is the root development not plan B

No one said dan chi sao is plan B.. I said clearing is plan B using your own terms..


many jump stright to plan B

THAT is chasing hands..

[k gledhill]

plan B is line clearing with a commited hand eithe pak, jut, lop, bong....gaun...huen...

plan A is what ? there lies the question .....do you know what the root idea is ...it aint sticking with 2 hands in a stance :D

A 1 strike 2 actions x 2 in rotation & B 2 actions one strike in rotation

our arms fight in a consatnt partnership ....why we step into the dummy sides doing a tan & jum...it isnt to attack with a tan & a jum ;)

confused ? :D

[YungChun]

plan B is line clearing with a commited hand eithe pak, jut, lop, bong....gaun...huen...

plan A is what ? there lies the question .....do you know what the root idea is ...it aint sticking with 2 hands in a stance :D

A 1 strike 2 actions x 2 in rotation & B 2 actions one strike in rotation

our arms fight in a consatnt partnership ....wht we step into the dummy sides doing a tam & jum...it isnt to attack with a tan & a jum ;)

confused ? :D
Not really...

Hand Unity...

[k gledhill]

but is the root attack working A ? or do you NEED plan B to simply function ...

again what are you capable of doing with 1 arm from a side that both hits and covers its line , then transfers the same thinking to the following strike that is also on its own holding the line as it strikes or goes to plan B ....what is A ?

[YungChun]

but is the root attack working A ? or do you NEED plan B to simply function ...

again what are you capable of doing with 1 arm from a side that both hits and covers its line , then transfers the same thinking to the following strike that is also on its own holding the line as it strikes or goes to plan B ....what is A ?
Using your terms..

Plan A would be the attack x 2...with one hand/arm...initially...

But it could also be combinations of two actions with both arms.. :)

[k gledhill]

close but no cigar...the initial 'ATTACK' is 2 handed in rotation like any person wailing on another but with more going on because of the angles and elbow levels while hitiing and angling.....

PLAN B is when you use one to clear /grab etc...

plan A is self clearing ;) zone sweeping atack with 2 arms in rotation never as chi-sao clinching doing the waddle as clips show us ;)

1st is a self clearing machine gun ..commonly refered to as a chain punch and OH so misused ! front and center its self destruction, but to the sides with training its omnipotent and hard to fight .

2nd is if the line of fire is interupted or an attempt to jam the gun is made..block. grab x over the line if we use plan B its because an arm found the line of fire not our gun finding them ...ergo chi-sao how to clear a jammed gun in battle without thinking to stop and have a look ; )


tan & jum fire from the flanks over arms as strikes closing our potential counter lines to penetration by striking from and off the line and back ....we can seamlessly flow to ether side without stopping because we do tan & jum on eiter side for this reason....to allow the bull to chase as we move to eitherside or stay close to the neck and not allow it to face us as we goin for the ....

[YungChun]

1st is a self clearing machine gun ..commonly refered to as a chain punch and OH so misused ! front and center its self destruction, but to the sides with training its omnipotent and hard to fight .

C'mon bro...

I've been saying this for pages and pages and threads....... And I said initial move... Cigar?


Plan A would be the attack x 2...with one hand/arm...initially...

The 2x is the strike and the clear.. I mean how often do I have to write clear and strike???:rolleyes:


2nd is if the line of fire is interupted or an attempt to jam the gun is made..block. grab x over the line if we use plan B its because an arm found the line of fire not our gun finding them ...ergo chi-sao how to clear a jammed gun in battle without thinking to stop and have a look
Again, we've been talking about this for pages and pages.. All tools clear/hit/fill space..all the tools flow into each other..nothing stays.. Sorry you don't have a lock on the hit/clear thing nor is this a new topic to me..

Like this this something new now all of a sudden? I've been agreeing with this for pages and posts.. :eek::rolleyes::cool:

[k gledhill]

it all sounds the same and yes it flows seamlessly into one another ...but by your admission your developing jut sao as the root response to a tan so er ,ah when do you do the seamless strike deflect thing with each arm ?? if not dan chi ? where ?

[YungChun]

it all sounds the same and yes it flows seamlessly into one another ...but by your admission your developing jut sao as the root response to a tan so er ,ah when do you do the seamless strike deflect thing with each arm ?? if not dan chi ? where ?
Dan chi sao develops a lot of different tools..

One can't simply jum--you have to get there....with some motion, his or yours.

SCS is basic tool development.. It introduces clears/redirects; basic shapes/tools and energy...

By your own admission you use jut.. Jut clears..

In DSC you start in fook, that is the attack--initial energy and position..

You receive tan/palm striking through the jut clearing action and then you have jum------strike.

These are basic tools and movements..

Later in ChiSao if my fook is correct and he tries to penetrate with Tan/Palm then there are many other ways to deal with his energy and position--we are not locked into a beginner drill--after this drill is taught and basic use of tools is picked up (three months) this drill gets tossed out the window in my lineage...

I mean you are not going to start fighting from a fook or a jum per se.. You are starting from some attack.. If and when and how that attack is interrupted is going to dictate what happens next not dan chi sao... The jut is valid, the fook is valid the jum is valid the idea---clear the line and hit is valid--when you need to clear that line.. In DSC you have only one arm, in fighting you are going to use both so if one hand is clearing the other is hitting and the last clearing action will make way for the next strike as well..

The idea you have of the continuous cycle is fine, very wing chun.. One of the big problems in some training is that the change from A to B and back again is never clear because there is no real power used in training. If there is not power and contact then you don't really know when the A/B change is needed. The real idea of Fan Sao is this cycle continuity you refer to.

[CFT]

The jut is valid, the fook is valid the jum is valid the idea---clear the line and hit is valid--when you need to clear that line.. In DSC you have only one arm, in fighting you are going to use both so if one hand is clearing the other is hitting and the last clearing action will make way for the next strike as well..My interpretation of Kevin's "Plan A" is that the line is cleared as you hit - hence 1 strike 2 actions. You only need to clear with the other hand (wu sao) if your initial strike is blocked/frustrated in some way.

[YungChun]

My interpretation of Kevin's "Plan A" is that the line is cleared as you hit - hence 1 strike 2 actions. You only need to clear with the other hand (wu sao) if your initial strike is blocked/frustrated in some way.
Which is why I wrote this two posts ago...when referring to the single handed attack:


The 2x is the strike and the clear.. I mean how often do I have to write clear and strike???:rolleyes:

I must be using invisible net ink...

Still it need not clear, just cover, or it's tendency to clear will be telling when resistance is met..

[YungChun]

The real point is the order..

B THEN A is what?

A THEN B is what?

A THEN A is what?

A AND B is what?

A AND A is what?

B AND B is what?

Etc..

Some think certain combinations are invalid.

Are they?

What can your 4 arms do?

[k gledhill]

until we meet then ;) :D

2 arms doing inside forearm & outside forearm relative to the attacking sides....in rotation .looks like a chain punch just has elbows in ....all the rest is ?

What CFT said ..just 2 arms one after the other both doing strikes not a pak da or a tan da , or a jut da
just da da ...lmao !!

[Ultimatewingchun]

Jut, gum, bong, tan, pak, pak-bil, huen, etc. are all techniques used to redirect or parry and opponent's incoming force/power/energy. And the chi sao platform provides an excellent opportunity to develop these skills and principles. Including the use of footwork and body shifting that will put you in a position that not only gets away from his incoming force - but also in a position to counter his attacks (or his forward charge) with an attack (ie.- strikes) of your own.

And skillful use of the eyes (whether during chi sao or not) can add to one's ability to avoid/circumvent the opponent's force entirely.

Without any contact (bridging) with his arms, legs, etc.

FROM VERY CLOSE RANGE.

One of THE most important benefits from good chi sao training.

[k gledhill]

this is a by product of lots of seung ma - toi ma drilling, coupled with footwork in drills to simply maintain proximity to the target as it evades us....I put focus mitts on my chest and tell the student to keep it ther with punch pressure alone as I take off backwards sideway etc... forwards . always getting them to strike the pad and keep it stuck to my chest with alternating punches alone ...similar to drill teachers use for constant pressure ..just focuseingon arm strike rotation and angling with the fight not back and forth in stright lines ...the entry in chisao is just as important to not deliver a stright charge of tan step lunge ...for the very reason of being countered in that same lunge timing...by doing drills to simply recieve this attacking way can help a lot ... no lead legs for obvious reasons .
entry is a stalking idea rather than being the bull.
Once they get good at striking the pad to hold it up as Im running around I add my lateral swipes at the incoming punch holdng th pad up to get them to stike rather than be distarcted by lateral actions . like water against me,Im being the windshiled wiper defense... plus good ol chi-sao

[YungChun]

What CFT said ..just 2 arms one after the other both doing strikes not a pak da or a tan da , or a jut da
just da da ...lmao !!
Oh he said that...

Of course there is a bit more in the system--are we oversimplifying a bit or holding up an ideal?

The interrupted attack could also be a timed counter attack--not everyone is playing the water hose game--what I said--not everyone holds centerline..

There are certainly other tools/options/problems in both outside and close inside ranges when dealing with skilled opponents IMO despite that wicked double clear/strike cycle function that CFT is talking about.. :eek: LOL

[couch]

until we meet then ;) :D

2 arms doing inside forearm & outside forearm relative to the attacking sides....in rotation .looks like a chain punch just has elbows in ....all the rest is ?

What CFT said ..just 2 arms one after the other both doing strikes not a pak da or a tan da , or a jut da
just da da ...lmao !!

Just to chime in quickly (and possibly never return!), if you're talking about how Pak Da are both strikes and both off-balance and go forward, I agree.

But you can't just Da Da. That's chain punching and like we've seen with GL, he talks about in his vids...it's not invincible, whether on the opponent's line or off the line.

Best,
Kenton Sefcik

PS...it IS fun to say Da Da. Or Da Da Da: http://youtube.com/watch?v=Be0R-o_gr1Q

[k gledhill]

I give up ! lets all just do sticky hands and be happy....

[Liddel]

Look i havent read things thouroughly but what i have read has bought something to mind...

Have we not heard of the saying "when you greedy with punches mind your empty space"

My teacher told me this years ago and i think it applies to the 'water hose' comment your discussing.......

If im off base...as you were soldier.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"The BASE ROOT idea is to develop the arms capability to do a double action in one beat striking ALONE ....ie.- one arm that can both deflect off & along our line as it angles ....while the other arm follows suit..but with another side of the forearm as it does." (Kevin)


***Can work well and often against straight punches...NOT THE CASE once he starts throwing round or hook punches. I'm not talking about what happens in chi sao or within chi sao "rules" - I'm talking about actual fighting or all out sparring.

....................................

"Once an angle / flank is adopted fighting , it becomes apparent that we only need one arm leading and one back if trained correctly. Because that one striking arm is doing the job of the other hand by being placed in an angle and realtionship to the functioning 'reality ' of an arm it needs to bridge and strike over or under ....Once you reach an angle of attack /counter attack the arms NEVER need to leave the center line area ...except for the bilgee actions ...chum kil teaches ...pointing of the attack line , and how to regain the bridged arm as we do the attack." (Kevin)


***AGAIN, this only applies against straight punches - but if he hooks (whether a short tight one or a longer more arching punch)...all bets are off. You have to turn and face the point of contact on his hook with your centerline if you expect to not get hit and block/stop/redirect his punch from the inside.

ONE OF THE BIGGEST MISCONCPETIONS ABOUT CHI SAO is that it demonstrates/proves (allegedly) that using the shortest-distance-between-two-points straight line attack is all you need. NOT TRUE at all. That's only true from certain very close distances.

.................................................

"If we train to use 2 hands to be at a permiter distance requiring control and sticking BEFORE a contact strike then the idea being trained is , as I call it , 'wristing' . Wristing development is as bad if not worse than arm chasing." (Kevin)


***AND AGAIN, speaking of actual fighting now and not something that starts from chi sao 4 hands touching range - what if he's got a tight defense with his arms? One of the ways to penetrate this is exactly by attempting a "control"/stick/manipulate his arm(s) BEFORE actually trying to strike him.

And another way? Throw a round punch!!! :eek::cool:

That's right. Not a misprint. Take him out of his tightly structured defense with a lead arm hook/round punch of your own - to be immediately followed by a more close quarter "stick"/control/manipulation leading to straight line wing chun attacks.

(You used the hook as a means of entry).

..............................................

"the redundancy of 2 arms used like a roll in chi-sao is obviously redundant and more akin to a clinching stylized rendition ...if we never face the bull [aka FORCE] , why train to touch its 2 horns ? or seek to reach across a flanked horn to touch/chase the other horn ? when it cant reach us ?
If the bull turns to face us we can use grabs to keep it going past its intended 'facing' and adopt the other side / horn seamlessly through our angling training to simply take the offered horn...
Sometimes as bil gee lop sao shows , we have to grab the bull by the horns to get a certain angle , BUT we then stab the bull repeatedly one dagger after the other , not hold onto the horns or fight the horn it is this letting go that that is reluctant in many because they lack the training to LET GO OF THE HORN and strike while holding a line that keeps the horn off us as we strike it." (Kevin)


***ONLY up to a certain point, Kevin. The above is true fairly often - but against a skilled "bull" you CANNOT rely on the idea that all you'll ever have to do is hit him. Sometimes "holding onto the horns" is the only way to subdue this guy - while hitting him with the other hand repeatedly (ie.- like dirty boxing)...or perhaps even going into wrestling/grappling/locking/sweeping/throwing mode will be in order.

Don't assume that striikes alone will always take care of the charge by the bull.

.................................................. .........

"plan B is line clearing with a commited hand either pak, jut, lop, bong....gaun...huen...:D

plan A is what ? there lies the question .....do you know what the root idea is ...it aint sticking with 2 hands in a stance

A 1 strike 2 actions x 2 in rotation & B 2 actions one strike in rotation

our arms fight in a consatnt partnership ....why we step into the dummy sides doing a tan & jum...it isnt to attack with a tan & a jum

confused ? :D (Kevin)


***DON'T be confused. Here's the Plan A solution: Strike into the vertical lines that correspond to where his arms are placed - and not at hard targets. (Yet)

REMEMBER, YOU'RE NOT CHASING HANDS - YOU'RE CHASING TERRITORY THAT YOU WANT TO OWN/OCCUPY/CONTROL...

He will either engage your arms (at which point you proceed to clear a path(s) for more strikes to hard targets - because you're now closer than when you started)...or he might try to hook around your straight line attacks (you must be vigilant and use broken rhythm/sharp timing to pick this off)...

Or perhaps he may try to grab you/shoot for your legs, throw a kick - or back up in some manner.

Doesn't matter. As long as you're watching carefully and coming in with these punches into his arm/shoulder lines with a measured prudence and not at top speed.

TAKE ADVANTAGE OF YOUR CHI SAO centerline/sensitivity SKILLS BY ENGAGING his arms (very often) BEFORE disengaging and striking...don't expect that you'll always be able to just angle in/off lines with strikes.

Not going to be the case very often against a skilled fighter with good hands.

[k gledhill]

Couch your right I said DA DA DA DA for the humour of it :D

liddel yes a greedy puncher can leave himsef open ;)

Victor agreed . but again a lot of my words are confusing tryng to convey actions .


what Im tryng to say is that the chi-sao is only serving me to develop an idea of the system, not to teach me to fight like the drill standing toe to toe. the arms are being developed to strike using a certain ability, that isnt the be all end all of a fight by any means . My point is that many arent even aware of the basic root ability of arms beyond the impact thinking..dadadadadada. In other words the mind is focused on the strike not the defensive line clearing or self protection afforded by maintaining elbows in along our centers , using our angled forearms in rotation simply striking along a flank...These centerlines move to angle or move the other fighter aggresively while in a full on attack mode ..important.. not a mirror of jab x, back up feint feint x ....back up. BUt an assault trained to be delivered as an unbroken delivery... to restate , we will have plan b working , paks jut s etc...as well seamlessly , to clear attempts to block us , grab us , etc.. while we are still punching and kicking , shoving , without breaking the beat to offer full counter attacks back at us...
worst case scenario I can always duck and do takedowns too ; ) or avoid them .


da dadada lmao

[k gledhill]

Dan chi sao develops a lot of different tools..

One can't simply jum--you have to get there....with some motion, his or yours.

SCS is basic tool development.. It introduces clears/redirects; basic shapes/tools and energy...

By your own admission you use jut.. Jut clears..

In DSC you start in fook, that is the attack--initial energy and position..

You receive tan/palm striking through the jut clearing action and then you have jum------strike.

These are basic tools and movements..

Later in ChiSao if my fook is correct and he tries to penetrate with Tan/Palm then there are many other ways to deal with his energy and position--we are not locked into a beginner drill--after this drill is taught and basic use of tools is picked up (three months) this drill gets tossed out the window in my lineage...

I mean you are not going to start fighting from a fook or a jum per se.. You are starting from some attack.. If and when and how that attack is interrupted is going to dictate what happens next not dan chi sao... The jut is valid, the fook is valid the jum is valid the idea---clear the line and hit is valid--when you need to clear that line.. In DSC you have only one arm, in fighting you are going to use both so if one hand is clearing the other is hitting and the last clearing action will make way for the next strike as well..

The idea you have of the continuous cycle is fine, very wing chun.. One of the big problems in some training is that the change from A to B and back again is never clear because there is no real power used in training. If there is not power and contact then you don't really know when the A/B change is needed. The real idea of Fan Sao is this cycle continuity you refer to.

the way you describe the parts shows me you dont know what Im trying to explain ...its easier hands on ...

[Ultimatewingchun]

Couch your right I said DA DA DA DA for the humour of it :D

liddel yes a greedy puncher can leave himsef open ;)

Victor agreed . but again a lot of my words are confusing tryng to convey actions .


what Im tryng to say is that the chi-sao is only serving me to develop an idea of the system, not to teach me to fight like the drill standing toe to toe. the arms are being developed to strike using a certain ability, that isnt the be all end all of a fight by any means . My point is that many arent even aware of the basic root ability of arms beyond the impact thinking..dadadadadada. In other words the mind is focused on the strike not the defensive line clearing or self protection afforded by maintaining elbows in along our centers , using our angled forearms in rotation simply striking along a flank...These centerlines move to angle or move the other fighter aggresively while in a full on attack mode ..important.. not a mirror of jab x, back up feint feint x ....back up. BUt an assault trained to be delivered as an unbroken delivery... to restate , we will have plan b working , paks jut s etc...as well seamlessly , to clear attempts to block us , grab us , etc.. while we are still punching and kicking , shoving , without breaking the beat to offer full counter attacks back at us...
worst case scenario I can always duck and do takedowns too ; ) or avoid them .


da dadada lmao


***GOOD POST.

[YungChun]

My point is that many arent even aware of the basic root ability of arms beyond the impact thinking..dadadadadada. In other words the mind is focused on the strike not the defensive line clearing
And for the 200th time those who have already acknowledged--yes the strikes clear...and hit..or clear/hit--the elbow position leads the vector of the clear. Most of the tools do both in the same action, some set it up for the second action, or next action--is this second action what you think many are stuck on, all they see, or you disagree with? There is more than the continuous clearing centerline attack, other tactical problems that the system addresses too, like Victor mentioned.

This is all fairly basic stuff learned early on, yes even seen in the 'chain punching' drill--a concept learned the first day. I can't imagine why you think this is not understood after all that has been posted about this and the continuous clearing attack..

What's new?

[k gledhill]

if your fook is the attack energy resting on tan sao ..... then your developing a completely different idea to mine ;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

so...what have we learned here...that after 5 pages the core of chi sao is....:eek:

[YungChun]

if your fook is the attack energy resting on tan sao ..... then your developing a completely different idea to mine ;)
All tools are attacking... The question is how?

The fook is there, it's a starting point, the next action is what? Depends on Tan..


No matter what Fook means to you, it's the initial starting point for that hand...

I think that you want to find small differences in description, instead of seeing a big picture made over dozens of posts--and then use that to reinforce the idea that you have the *different* secret sauce.. Everything you've said I have agreed with to the extent it was clear.. Nothing, in terms of tactics or technique that you have explained or showed is something new to me.. Not good enough because some use of ideas or verbiage is different? So be it.

[YungChun]

so...what have we learned here...that after 5 pages the core of chi sao is....:eek:
Well the Bong thread went how many pages? Bong is only a small part of ChiSao so hold on, this may last a while.. :D

And why not?

The idea is to exchange ideas when possible...

[k gledhill]

I see ....:D I have secret sauce now eh !? :D

[k gledhill]

All tools are attacking... The question is how?

The fook is there, it's a starting point, the next action is what? Depends on Tan..


No matter what Fook means to you, it's the initial starting point for that hand...

I think that you want to find small differences in description, instead of seeing a big picture made over dozens of posts--and then use that to reinforce the idea that you have the *different* secret sauce.. Everything you've said I have agreed with to the extent it was clear.. Nothing, in terms of tactics or technique that you have explained or showed is something new to me.. Not good enough because some use of ideas or verbiage is different? So be it.


your cooking adifferent recipe .;)

[YungChun]

your cooking adifferent recipe .;)
Instead of looking at the big picture and seeing the agreement you prefer to see differences.. Very similar to what some other folks are also saying--yes it looks the same, but no it's totally different.. :rolleyes: That's secret sauce...

All I can do is agree with you... And you come back with no you don't get it.. I don't think you know what I get. So I am saying show us, tell us or me what is different about it.. If it is different or new to me then I would be the first person to say so...

I have read your post and saw the clip, I am saying yes I agree, but nope that doesn't cut it for you.. Address specifics and then contrast the differences--not make assumptions about what others understand or what you think they know... Not everything comes across so clearly in text..........

Fook is there in ChiSao.. It holds the outside line from the elbow, there is low flow in terms of power, but there is still flow..

[sanjuro_ronin]

Fook is there in ChiSao..

Fook'n A its there !!
:D

[YungChun]

Fook'n A its there !!
:D

Fook'in a let's do a Bong... :D

[k gledhill]

Just my point fook isnt an energy in chisao :D your in chi-sao association land...

my fok rests on tan etc...is chi-sao speak

you know it all, so why am i bothering ;)

eject booiinnnggg :D

[YungChun]

Just my point fook isnt an energy in chisao :D
I didn't say fook is an energy....

See the problem?


your in chi-sao association land...

This thread was about ChiSao...


my fok rests on tan etc...is chi-sao speak

It's pressurized not at rest..


you know it all

No I don't and I ain't the one telling everyone else they don't get it when they agree with me--I am asking questions and agreeing with you, apparently the wrong tact.. So okay here goes..

I have no idea what you mean and I disagree with it..

Badda bing badda boom..

[Ultimatewingchun]

so...what have we learned here...that after 5 pages the core of chi sao is....:eek:


***WELL I thought I was being pretty clear about certain core principles and skills that need to be developed in chi sao in my posts - but I'm still trying to figure out what Kevin and Jim are talking about?

Shakespeare's "Much Ado About Nothing? :p :cool:

[k gledhill]

to try and answer " what are the core skills'



what im trying to say isnt that you dont understand what your doing , you dont understand what Im doing . or my foundation thinking. I dont expect you to , but you took it personally.

the core skills of chi-sao are based on the foundation of what my goals are in a fight


iow im not doing chi-sao for the same reasons as you. we dont share the same foundation of fighting idea or end product. when i say the fook enrgy or whatever Im not attacking your way , im pointing out that what im endevouring to develop isnt driven by the fook tan conundrum ...i have another idea;) its not secret sauce , just one you MAY NOT know about .


what are those goals ?

many ,but none are aimed at being in a position of a chi-sao exchange in a freefight . Guys get lazy and stand around doing it everyday for years and they create a false reality in their mind that everyone is going to deliver a compliant attack or stright line that will allow a nice counter etc....then theres ufc reality :D or scrub fighting ninjas in bars /clubs /trains ...its gets messy real quick and NOBODY does chisao in a nice friendly roll [ rolling on floor icon unavailable ]...


so what am I doing in this wacky drill in the first place ? a clinch ? no... a way to tie people into origami real quick ? no .......waddle around and have 2 arms seeking center ? noooo.

The idea is to develop the arms ability to strike in a certain way relative to my tactical approach to the fight ...that comes from the knives not chi-sao.

what are those tactics and why ? are they like chi-sao to face someone toe to toe in a knife fight if they have 2 knives ? no i dont think so... we arent movie pirates trading blows for the camera .

so why the funny fook sao ? to stick in a fight ? no ..to deliver a nulifying forward energy to a non existant reality of function ? noooo :D to plac eenergy at the wrist in constant contact, waiting for an opening to fill ? like I have time for that :rolleyes:

tan sao ? its a funny shape ...why am i doing it in a toe to to stance ? when am i going to do this standing inside two wailing /flanking punches ? never ? maybe a fleeting glimpse but I dont think so. And we all know it doesnt work to block a punch curling into your nose ;) mine anyway :o

bong sao ? Im never going to face guy if I can avoid it like chi-sao , so why am i doing it like this square on ? why am I letting the guy put his arm on mine in the first place ?
simply DEVELOP EACH OTHERS PARTS INTO A WHOLE but used in a tactical delivery that is so simplistic and effective it escapes many, especially T ;) [ just kidding ] ...simply because they are looking for the answers in the chi-sao as a tactical idea doing a dirty waddle .

is it to do a waddling/walk while clinching, throwing random shots at each other...or training to attack people centers ? ..thats their strength isnt it ?,, they have everything to fire at me if I do...2 hands and 2 legs....so why learn to fight peoples centers ? answer ....Im not, you are [ not you, but them ] only ai dont know what arm your going to lead at me in your attack yet ...or your intentions .

Chi-sao is the point of a triangles apex that we are training to move out of or into from face offs....

we train at this point in time of a fight, in a random manner, to get used to the required core skills to achieve the quick kill. The random entry and angling are to develop the instinctive response to a line of force and what side we adopt to fight it we dont know and cant think about what side and what skills , can we ?...so we train to respond using OUR FACING WITH 2 ARMS AND 2 LEGS only with a trained function from a foundation of fighting in a no pre contact manner into a high probability of contact :D and what to without thinking seamlessly on either side of our attack/counter etc....

then how to maintain the functional proximity of the ensuing movement of the fight...to stay with it as it comes so we can counter it and follow as it retreats or maneuvers to regain its strength facing ability , something we are doing the opposite ...in its attempts to face again we wont let it :D or allow it, only to try to use force, because we arent fighting the force , unless its coming at our heads/centers, we are letting it go wherever it wants and countering it as it does. All depending on what side an attack comes from , so we are developing EITHER SIDE to function like a mirror to our other side so we fight facing squarely but on sides as the dummy entry ...why we dont enter the dummy from the front but attack parralel to it and angle into its sides....

the core skills are to develop strikes that can at a ROOT LEVEL BASIC SIMPLICITY act as a 2 fer to hit the guy in the SAME BEAT he tries to hit me ....in one arm or 2 in partnerships as SLT teaches in the later sections

its not easy and many chase arms seeking contact rather than striking defelcting parries etc...based on this foundation idea
.... the core skills in chi-sao are to coach OUT these mistakes and have a guy simply focused on the goal and have the structure and arms to carry it thought to an end ....
can you hit me as i come and hurt me as I go ? simple


Like Wong Shun Leung said " Vt is like a crashing wave , a hidden weapon to be pulled out at the last minute , like a knife or a gun,the person on the recieveing end has little chance for recovery once the attack is launched " .

foundations are built on ideas ...not all the ideas are the same but they have the same
names and shapes ..only the way its cooked changes different chef, not a secret sauce ..in other words we all have the same ingredients, just the end dish changes simply because of the goals ...or how the chef likes to cook ...

this is how I do it anyway ;)

[YungChun]

Doing..

The continuous intercepting cyclic clear/strike...IMO..

Somewhat idealized...as in gor sao...

Thinking...

TMI...

[k gledhill]

I wrote more ....sorry :D

the key to the ability to achieve this idea [ The continuous intercepting cyclic clear/strike] lies in the interpretation of the opening moves of the forms ...
it isnt a hi/lo gaun sao...its a line in space our arms traverse ...like a train track we are moving either side of it not on it ....

[YungChun]

I have no idea what you are talking about; But I strongly disagree with it.... :eek::p:D

[k gledhill]

shaving hands points to the nose..

hi /lo isnt hi/lo pointing down, its pointing to the other guys nose...

punch from the heart finish on the nose ;) the heart isnt in the center.

[couch]

I wrote more ....sorry :D

the key to the ability to achieve this idea [ The continuous intercepting cyclic clear/strike] lies in the interpretation of the opening moves of the forms ...
it isnt a hi/lo gaun sao...its a line in space our arms traverse ...like a train track we are moving either side of it not on it ....

Wouldn't you say that there are two doors to enter in Wing Chun? Front and side? Each having an advantage/disadvantage(fast-direct-high chance of dealing with a second attack / slow-indirect-low chance of dealing with a second attack)?

Are you saying that in your Foundation, that you are developing getting off of the line/the line where the knives stab down the middle/the water bucket being thrown at you/etc only?

I'm just curious to find out if you ever just "crash" down the middle. Like when you talked about your in-flight fighting teaching experience. With two rows of seats on either side...you can't angle off of that attack and going forward would be inevitable.

Even though it's a long thread about (maybe nothing) Chi Sau...I find some of it interesting.

Best,
Kenton Sefcik

[couch]

shaving hands points to the nose..

hi /lo isnt hi/lo pointing down, its pointing to the other guys nose...

punch from the heart finish on the nose ;) the heart isnt in the center.

I believe that the reason the saying is "Punch from the heart" is two fold:
1. If you're gonna fight...you better have heart to get it done.
2. MY hands have to start somewhere and bringing them to the center of my chest/heart area is a perfect place to start. It's in the middle of all gates if my objective is to flow forward. In my Chum Kiu, I drop my hands at the beginning to the hips and shoot them out like a gun-slinger...as fast and relaxed as possible - but of course they come to my heart first.

Of course, if my hands are low - I would rather Low Bong that bring an arm to bring it down in Gan Sau for a low strike to my abdomen.

Best,
Kenton Sefcik

[k gledhill]

the center is like fighting water ....you can block some but not all ...you will get wet...

guys doing center attacks are ok after entry form a side and the guys attempts to face offbalanced etc...but not attack a prepared face of in the middle, "charge of the light brigade" style, heroic but dumb :D

WWI more guys died attacking front and center , trenches that had a simple idea ...1 machine gun either end of the trench X anything in the ends of an attack got anihalated...only one side of the advancing force could fight the machine guns ....the rest
of the attacking force couldnt fire or they would hit their own troops....

it worked until the u.s. forces learned this tactic and countered it in WWII by attacking the corners of hedge rows they advanced upon and not the centers ;)

[LoneTiger108]

Like Wong Shun Leung said " Vt is like a crashing wave , a hidden weapon to be pulled out at the last minute , like a knife or a gun,the person on the recieveing end has little chance for recovery once the attack is launched " .

foundations are built on ideas ...not all the ideas are the same but they have the same
names and shapes ..only the way its cooked changes different chef, not a secret sauce ..in other words we all have the same ingredients, just the end dish changes simply because of the goals ...or how the chef likes to cook ...

this is how I do it anyway ;)

Are you the same k gledhill??

This is probably the best thing I've read from your posts, maybe even in this whole forum!! ;) It is a very similar idea which was passed to me and my brothers during our time with Sifu.

Sigung Lee Shing was a restauranteur by trade, and cooking was his life.