Dai Xin Yi

[Xin Yi Liu He]

http://daixinyi.blogspot.com/

Just updated my blog regarding a recent trip to Qi Xian/Shanxi to train with GM, Yan Long Chang. If anyone has any questions regarding the trip or is interested in the next one we are holding there, roughly in May, please don't hesitate to contact me, Jon Dyer (aka, Jay_Bee at EF).

http://www.youtube.com/DAIXINYI (This is my youtube page, so if you have never seen orthodox Dai Shi Liu He Xin Yi Chuan, before, this is your chance).

I have a website planned, though it is sadly not going to be up for quite a while now, though when it does I will keep everyone updated.

Jon Dyer (Jingang@xtra.co.nz)

[doug maverick]

dai xin yi is rare hear in the u.s. and the only teacher of it is probably li tai liang here in new york city. my question is does dai style practice the five elements or are they just theories like i heard some people say?

[Xin Yi Liu He]

dai xin yi is rare hear in the u.s. and the only teacher of it is probably li tai liang here in new york city. my question is does dai style practice the five elements or are they just theories like i heard some people say?

Regarding Dai Xin Yi Chuan in the US, the only people to my knowledge are those affiliated with Xin Yi Dao (Li Tailiang in NY, his son and also in Taigu/Shanxi, Yang Fan Sheng, etc).

I am not affiliated with this school, but are online friends with some of it's members.

Wu Xing Chuan (5 phases, elements), 1st came from Dai style, I heard there is a good possibility that they were formed after San Chuan (3 fists, zuan, guo, jian), but I don't really know for sure?

They are practiced as forms firstly containing various different powers (Jin), but in later represent more principle over form. I have talked to my teacher, Yan Long Chang regarding certain things and he said the movements happen spontaneously, meaning "it" just reacts. Basically there are unlimited variations of the movements if you understand the core principles. To get to this stage is considered pretty high level, for beginners you just learn the movements and in time, things make sense. There is not a lot of emphasis on learning the applications when you start out, there is no 2 man sets, the understanding arrives after much kung fu (hard work).

I would ask my teacher the same question regarding applications maybe 4 or 5 times and each time get a different explanation. I think he just reacts and whatever happens to come out at the time, happens.

JB.

[doug maverick]

well with my sifu he always ask me about application instead of me asking him. cause he says i have to make it suit me and use what works for me ofcourse he guides me and tells me whats right and whats wrong but usually leaves it up to me to figure alot of things out. he doesn;t like to spoon feeds. xing yi because its so simple is infinite there is no limit to how many combination you can come up with just like boxing you can go on forever. i don't know about dai style but in my teachers style our curriculum goes like this:

san ti

nei gung

five elements

linking form, two man form

12 animals

linking 12 animals, 12animals five elements, two man form

weapons

also there's another form that looks like bagua only the circle is smaller i can't remember the name thou.

[doug maverick]

Regarding Dai Xin Yi Chuan in the US, the only people to my knowledge are those affiliated with Xin Yi Dao (Li Tailiang in NY, his son and also in Taigu/Shanxi, Yang Fan Sheng, etc).

I am not affiliated with this school, but are online friends with some of it's members.

Wu Xing Chuan (5 phases, elements), 1st came from Dai style, I heard there is a good possibility that they were formed after San Chuan (3 fists, zuan, guo, jian), but I don't really know for sure?

They are practiced as forms firstly containing various different powers (Jin), but in later represent more principle over form. I have talked to my teacher, Yan Long Chang regarding certain things and he said the movements happen spontaneously, meaning "it" just reacts. Basically there are unlimited variations of the movements if you understand the core principles. To get to this stage is considered pretty high level, for beginners you just learn the movements and in time, things make sense. There is not a lot of emphasis on learning the applications when you start out, there is no 2 man sets, the understanding arrives after much kung fu (hard work).

I would ask my teacher the same question regarding applications maybe 4 or 5 times and each time get a different explanation. I think he just reacts and whatever happens to come out at the time, happens.

JB.
its interesting that it came from dai style cause i have always heard that the five elements were just thoeries in dai style and then li neng ran actually made them into movements. but after doing some research its turning out that it was always apart of dai style.

so maybe the five elements came from cao chi wu. as the other line of xing yi does not have the elements and only ten animals and santi.

[Xin Yi Liu He]

The name Cao Jiwu first appears in the fake, Dai Long Bang's chuan pu (which was created in the the 1800's). It has little, but more likely nothing to do with Dai Xin Yi at all. In that chuan pu, that Cao learnt directly from the founder, Ji Long Feng (aka Ji Ji Ke) and passed the art down to Ma Xue Li from Luoyang (him being the 1st generation, muslim exponent). This is all fable.

Ji Long Feng passed these theoretical teachings onto Mr. Zheng of Nanshan (a hermit); Zheng passed them on to Mr. Li of Henan (a hermit). Li, who was skilled at bonesetting as well as boxing, wrote the “Ten Essentials of Xinyiquan Preface” in 1732; afterwards, he also wrote the “Twenty-four Character Secret Formula” that explained Xinyi fighting skills.

He also passed his bonesetting skills onto Guo Xiangtai of Pingle in Luoyang (where there is the well-known “Guo’s bonesetting arts”). After Li arrived at the Wangwushan area of Jiyuan, in his later years, he also wrote the “Treatise on the Nine Essentials” of Xinyiquan. This treatise, in addition to being passed along to the Zhaobao taiji practitioners and Chen Changxing of Chen Village, was also preserved by the Yuan family in Jiyuan. In the early Republican era, Zheng Lianpu gave a copy to the martial arts coach at Peking University, Li Jianqiu (Li Cunyi’s grand-disciple); in 1919, Li recorded it in his book “The Art of Xingyiquan.

Li Zheng is credited with teaching Dai Long Bang, Mai Zhuangtu XYLHQ and Jin Shikui also taught them Tang Lang Chuan. As to, if they already practiced kung fu?, no one really knows?

Jon.

[doug maverick]

hmmm... interesting i alos heard that story as well. don't know which one was true yourss sound credible thou.its interesting, i'm not that concerned where the arts com from i just like hearing the history. as for my sifu he trained with two promonent xing yi chuan teacher, wang ji wu, who studied with wang fu yuan who studied with liu qi lan who studied with li neng ran who studied with dai long bang. and also with wang shu chin who studied with chang chao tung who also studied with liu qi lan and dong hei chuan, he also studied with wang xiang chai who studied with guo yun shen who studied with li neng ran. my teacher started training with wang ji wu for four or five years and then moved to taiwan and later japan where he studied with wang off and on for ten years.

[Xin Yi Liu He]

hmmm... interesting i alos heard that story as well. don't know which one was true yourss sound credible thou.its interesting, i'm not that concerned where the arts com from i just like hearing the history. as for my sifu he trained with two promonent xing yi chuan teacher, wang ji wu, who studied with wang fu yuan who studied with liu qi lan who studied with li neng ran who studied with dai long bang. and also with wang shu chin who studied with chang chao tung who also studied with liu qi lan and dong hei chuan, he also studied with wang xiang chai who studied with guo yun shen who studied with li neng ran. my teacher started training with wang ji wu for four or five years and then moved to taiwan and later japan where he studied with wang off and on for ten years.

Dai practitioners do not believe Li Lao Neng learnt from Dai Long Bang, we believe he learnt from Guo Weihan, who was a student of Dai Long Bang. Guo was related to the Dai's through family, something like Guo was a nephew of Dai Long Bang's wife.

Che Xing Yi practitioners also believe Che learnt directly from Dai Er Lu, etc. (it is also written on Che Yi Zhai's tablet). I however believe in the Guo Weihan story, for a few reasons.

JB.

[doug maverick]

mine elaborating on your reasons. i believe he did study with dai. i heard of the guo wei han story but for some reason i don't put to much stock into it.

[Xin Yi Liu He]

I have not got the time to discuss it in detail at the mo, but this is a account written by Jarek,Szymanski, well respected martial arts historian, originally from Poland, but now resides in Shanghai.

This is just one of the stories, there are many as you know.


Li Laoneng came to Shanxi and wanted to learn Dai Family Xinyiquan. Li bought some land and was growing vegetables there. At that time Dai Longbang already passed away and Dai Erlü, who was very respected locally and of high social status, did not agree to accept Li as a student. As a result Li decided to ask Guo, another of Dai Longbang's disciples, to teach him, but since he was afraid that Guo would not accept him either, he was everyday pushing a cart with vegetables to Guo's house and selling the vegetables to Guo. It was Lü Haigen, Guo Weihan's "page boy" (Shu Tong) who was always coming out and buying the vegetables from Li. After some time Guo finally came out. Li grasped two handles of the cart and lifted the heavy cart full of vegetables to let Guo choose them and at the same time to show him his strength. Guo chose the vegetables and gave Li a bronze coin to pay. Guo was holding the coin with three fingers and in spite of the efforts Li could not take it from him.


Then Guo broke the coin with his fingers. Seeing this Li wanted to cross hands with Guo, but Guo defeated him easily using Snake Form (She Xing). After the fight Li kneeled in front of Guo and asked to be accepted as disciple. Although Guo agreed to teach him, the style he taught was a changed version which was based on San Ti Shi, and which Guo called Xingyiquan - Form and Intent Boxing. After some time Dai Erlü heard that Guo was teaching the man from Hebei and became quite unhappy with him. Guo invited Dai Erlü to his house and while Li Laoneng was practicing the style he learnt from Guo in the courtyard, Dai, sitting inside the house, was taking a peep at him through a little hole in the window (windows at that time had no glasses, but a half-transparent paper was used instead). Dai Erlü was not worried anymore seeing that Li did not learn his family art. Li Laoneng spent three years studying Xingyiquan and then went to Taigu.

JB.

P.S, what evidence do you have that Li Laoneng learnt from Dai Longbang? there is no evidence in any chuan pu coming from that area and time, though there is evidence of Guo Weihan learning from Dai.

[doug maverick]

i would like to see that evidence s that story just sounded like a story. just like the story of dai long bang. it is said that li was the one who altered the original dai style xing yi chuan. and that dai himself did not teach li the essence of the art until he was berated by his mother to do so. not saying your story is wrong just saying that there are alot of legends out there. some are to hard to believe some are not. both these stories seem feesable. if dai long bang was dead then its simple when was both dai and li born and when did both die.

[doug maverick]

In 1836 Li Lao Nong left his family to travel to Shanxi province to learn “The Dai family style” from the renowned Dai Wen Xiong. The fact that Li Lao Nong left his family, traveled hundreds of miles, and stayed despite the repeated refusal of Dai Wen Xiong to accept him as his student, is testament to Li Lao Nong’s determination and the reputation that Xin Yi already had. Rather than give up and go home, Li Luo Nong found a plot of land to grow vegetables, and everyday he would deliver them to the Dai family free of charge. Dai Wen Xiong gradually saw the sincerity of Li Lao Nong, and, on his mother’s insistence, finally accepted Li Lao Nong after three years of waiting. This history is documented in Li Guang Xiang’s “The Essence of Xin Yi” (1895) and many other books document that Li Lao Nong learnt Xin Yi from Dai Wen Xiong.

[Xin Yi Liu He]

In 1836 Li Lao Nong left his family to travel to Shanxi province to learn “The Dai family style” from the renowned Dai Wen Xiong. The fact that Li Lao Nong left his family, traveled hundreds of miles, and stayed despite the repeated refusal of Dai Wen Xiong to accept him as his student, is testament to Li Lao Nong’s determination and the reputation that Xin Yi already had. Rather than give up and go home, Li Luo Nong found a plot of land to grow vegetables, and everyday he would deliver them to the Dai family free of charge. Dai Wen Xiong gradually saw the sincerity of Li Lao Nong, and, on his mother’s insistence, finally accepted Li Lao Nong after three years of waiting. This history is documented in Li Guang Xiang’s “The Essence of Xin Yi” (1895) and many other books document that Li Lao Nong learnt Xin Yi from Dai Wen Xiong.

This is another story as quoted by Jarek.

JB.

[doug maverick]

didn't say it was from u i'm just saying thats another side of the story

[Xin Yi Liu He]

One of the main reasons for Li learning from Guo Weihan a modified version of Dai style is rather simple. Xing Yi Chuan has no dun hou shi (squatting monkey) and the power generation is rather different. Dai's trade mark being, shu-zhan (contraction and expansion), which is built on squatting monkey.

All these dan tian kung from Dai style are not practiced in any shape or form in Xing Yi, which leads me to believe Li never learnt them in the first place.

Li was an outsider and Dai was never taught to any people outside the family. There is a famous quote, "Everyone has heard of Dai martial art's, but no one has seen it". This explains how close kept the art was.

I don't know how well you know of Dai Xin Yi, so I don't know more what to say.

JB.

[doug maverick]

actually there are contraction and expansion training techiniques and excersises in xing yi chuan. the xing yi nei gung techniques are designed for this purpose. it is said that both li no neng and his student che yi chai both modified xin yi liu hei from its original form to create xing yi chuan. although the monkey squat and tiger step excersises are not in the system. xing yi has other nei gung that compensate.

[Xin Yi Liu He]

actually there are contraction and expansion training techiniques and excersises in xing yi chuan. the xing yi nei gung techniques are designed for this purpose. it is said that both li no neng and his student che yi chai both modified xin yi liu hei from its original form to create xing yi chuan. although the monkey squat and tiger step excersises are not in the system. xing yi has other nei gung that compensate.

Although you may think they are similar, they are not the same thing, or even remotely close in my opinion. There is no, shu-zhan in Xing Yi, at least not the same thing I am thinking of.

What nei kung are you thinking of and can you give me some examples?


JB.

[Xin Yi Liu He]

actually there are contraction and expansion training techiniques and excersises in xing yi chuan. the xing yi nei gung techniques are designed for this purpose. it is said that both li no neng and his student che yi chai both modified xin yi liu hei from its original form to create xing yi chuan. although the monkey squat and tiger step excersises are not in the system. xing yi has other nei gung that compensate.

Li Zheng was a Xin Yi Liu He Chuan practitioner coming from Henan. Li Zheng was also Zhang Zhicheng's disciple. We believe he taught Dai Longbang who in turn modified (Li Zheng's XYLHQ), into, what we now label, Dai Shi Liu He Xin Yi Chuan.

If and that is if Li or Che learned from Dai, they would of learnt Dai Xin Yi, not straight Mai Zhuangtu style.

JB.

[doug maverick]

Although you may think they are similar, they are not the same thing, or even remotely close in my opinion. There is no, shu-zhan in Xing Yi, at least not the same thing I am thinking of.

What nei kung are you thinking of and can you give me some examples?


JB.

its hard to explain it in writing and its really hard to find xing yi nei kung video's because alot of xing yi teachers either don't know it or don;t show it because they think it is the essence of xing yi or some nonsence like that. i've seen alot of dai style nei kung like the squating monkey so i know the similarities. your very quick to point out that the styles don't look alike when in fact they actually do they are just done defferently. but they are based on the same principle the same economy of motion.

[Xin Yi Liu He]

. i've seen alot of Dai style nei kung like the squating monkey so i know the similarities. your very quick to point out that the styles don't look alike when in fact they actually do they are just done defferently. but they are based on the same principle the same economy of motion.

I can agree with the comment on economy of motion, but I am going to have to agree to disagree with your other comments. Xing Yi does not have the rolling of the dan tian on a vertical axis and this is what shu, zhan is all about.

I also have to ask you what reference do you have regarding Dai training methods?

JB.

[doug maverick]

actually it does have that at least in my system it does. as for the dai stuff i've seen a few masters i'm gonna not name here both from china and europe who are dai style practitioners and when comparing their nei gung with that of xing yi i have to say the systems are one and the same. just like xin yi liu hei guan ten animals is the same.all one family

[Xin Yi Liu He]

actually it does have that at least in my system it does. as for the dai stuff i've seen a few masters i'm gonna not name here both from china and europe who are dai style practitioners and when comparing their nei gung with that of xing yi i have to say the systems are one and the same. just like xin yi liu hei guan ten animals is the same.all one family

I can agree that they are related, there is no doubt about that, but they are not the same.

As for Dai practitioners, they can only pretty much descend from Dai Kui or Dai Hong Xun (Dai Kui's uncle). I heard Dai Hong Xun, was actually taught by his nephew, but I am not 100% sure. Most people I know come from Wang Ying Hai's line (Wang has taught a lot of people without reservation), Li Tailiang and Yang Fan Sheng from Xin Yi Dao were taught by him, etc.

Yan Long Chang has taught fewer students and you could say only opened his doors recently so to speak.

There is also Huo Yongli, who has students who represent him in Japan. Jarek also received some tuition from him as well.

As for people practicing in europe, I am pretty sure they come from Xin Yi Dao, I know there is someone teaching in Moscow as I have a friend there which learnt from him for a while.

JB.

P.S, you know you can't roll dan tian in san ti shi?

[doug maverick]

I can agree that they are related, there is no doubt about that, but they are not the same.

As for Dai practitioners, they can only pretty much descend from Dai Kui or Dai Hong Xun (Dai Kui's uncle). I heard Dai Hong Xun, was actually taught by his nephew, but I am not 100% sure. Most people I know come from Wang Ying Hai's line (Wang has taught a lot of people without reservation), Li Tailiang and Yang Fan Sheng from Xin Yi Dao were taught by him, etc.

Yan Long Chang has taught fewer students and you could say only opened his doors recently so to speak.

There is also Huo Yongli, who has students who represent him in Japan. Jarek also received some tuition from him as well.

As for people practicing in europe, I am pretty sure they come from Xin Yi Dao, I know there is someone teaching in Moscow as I have a friend there which learnt from him for a while.

JB.

P.S, you know you can't roll dan tian in san ti shi?

your correct in a way as you can't roll dan tian in ertain santi shi.