Biu Sau

[r4cy]

Hi: I've been thinking about what kind of exercises I could do to strenghten my fingers in order to make my Biu Sau stronger. It's easy to strike the throat and similar "soft" places, but what if I wanted to strike harder places of the body? Any recommendatons. Please limit yourselves to "exercise examples". Thanks

[forever young]

far be it from me to critisize but seriously WTF!!!!!!!! what the hell is wrong with using fists like everyone else ???? how the hell are you going to toughen your fingers up enough to do any significant damage to any hard areas of the body, hell even if you subscribe to 't3h d34d1y eye poke' method of fighting you will appreciate that if you miss your fingers are likely to be broken on the skull, i personally would recommend that any training time you might think of devoting to 'finger conditioning' would be better spent doing some bag work or improving your timing/distancing/body unity-core exersizes or pad work, infact hell i will go as far as to say practice your ability to pee in a straight line before you devote any serious time to that crap/waste of time

of course this is (obviously) just my opinion and if you would care to point me in the direction of any hard evidence as to both the effectiveness of this method of striking and a sensible/safe way to train it and i might be convinced.... oh and before you even say it yes i agree a f*king good poke to the eye is a debilitating attack but it is such a low percentage move i personally wouldnt bother wasting training time when i could be training something both more effective and higher percentage (like a bloody good right hander ;) ) oh yeah also go google/youtube yugi nakai and see for yourself how after suffering a terrible eye injury he still went on to win the fight :rolleyes:

[k gledhill]

Id practice accuracy not toughness...if your throwng it ..imo..its to be done super fast and right to the point not ooops my iron finger strike missed :o

like a pole fight all to a point and back to do it again if need be

hang a sheet of papper in a doorway and try to poke/tear a hole in an X on the paper or 2 x' as eyes
with SPEED ..or put a candle flame out with same finger strike...try with unlit candle until you get the idea or you burn house down

[Sihing73]

Hello r4cy,

I would say be careful because there are said to be meridians in the fingers which when damaged can affect other parts of the body, for example the eyes and vision.

However, having said that, my Sifu trains by peircing his fingers into a bucket of loose sand. I guess you could progress into gravel etc, but I am not sure that it is needed in todays society. I would tend to agree with k gledhill and focus more on accuracy.

FWIW I did see people in Germany in WT who were able to place their fingers against a board sometimes a 4X4, and break the board by extending their arms. Not sure what training they did to achieve this but it was impressive. Of course, a lot of breaking is impressive but not always practical.

[chusauli]

Biu Sao is using the bridge, not necessarily the fingertips to attack. You would strike with the bridge at extremely close range.

The fingerjab is just one application of Biu Sao, but not the only. As for fingerstrikes, holding your hand properly at the point of impact is what counts.

Hope this helps.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Hi: I've been thinking about what kind of exercises I could do to strenghten my fingers in order to make my Biu Sau stronger. It's easy to strike the throat and similar "soft" places, but what if I wanted to strike harder places of the body? Any recommendatons. Please limit yourselves to "exercise examples". Thanks

Considering that the only people I have seen use finger strikes effectively in real fights and full contact sparring, had "deformed" fingers, perhaps you would be wise to NOT use them, I don't think the pros outweight the cons in this type of "forging".

[Sihing73]

Biu Sao is using the bridge, not necessarily the fingertips to attack. You would strike with the bridge at extremely close range.

The fingerjab is just one application of Biu Sao, but not the only. As for fingerstrikes, holding your hand properly at the point of impact is what counts.

Hope this helps.

Hello Robert,

So by this explanation a Fak Sau is an example of using Bui Sau? When referring to the "bridge" is there a specific part of the arm brought into play? Seems like you could use the forearm and the wrist and each would involve a different type of both contact and energy so I would be curious as to what differs or if the tem Biu Sau refers to both? What is the difference between striking with the forearm, wrist or hand/fingers/palm and which would be considered Biu Sau and why?

Not trying to be insulting but seems like you are indicating that Biu Sau is more of a concept relying on bridge contact rather than a specific technique. Kind of like the three familes of Taun/Fook/Bong which each gives rise to various techniques under each "families or seeds" concept. If this is the case then perhaps we can identify the shapes or techniques specific to a Biu Sau.

[r4cy]

Well, I've seen dudes from a system called Pangai Noon Kung Fu ( AKA Uechi Ryu Karate) this is a southern style of kung fu and this people can really strike with the tips of their fingers. Not only the ones from the hand but with the feet as well.Here is a clip showing it. The thing is that I'd like to know if there is a progressive way to achieve this. Iron palm training has similar progressive methods, I'm looking to do so with the fingers .

[stonecrusher69]

I just like to say I know someone who just a few weeks ago lost about 75% of his vision after hitting a marble slab with his finger tips,so it's no joke if you train incorrectly you can do serous damage.His vision is slowly coming back after some treatment. I myself only hit soft targets with the fingers and hard targets with the fist or palm.

[YungChun]

Well, I've seen dudes from a system called Pangai Noon Kung Fu ( AKA Uechi Ryu Karate) this is a southern style of kung fu and this people can really strike with the tips of their fingers. Not only the ones from the hand but with the feet as well.Here is a clip showing it. The thing is that I'd like to know if there is a progressive way to achieve this. Iron palm training has similar progressive methods, I'm looking to do so with the fingers .
I used to do some Uechi and I'll say this: IMO that kind of conditioning the hand, in order to break stuff, like boards, bricks or whatever is a complete waste of time AND the tool (nukite) was never intended to be used as such, and certainly not on hard targets.. There are a couple of top "masters" in that style that have trained their hands to break stuff and IMO this is yet another way of taking the focus off of functionality of the style and instead getting everyone ooooing and ahhhhing at the feats of doing this kind of asinine BS..

There is nothing wrong with conditioning the hands and arms, legs, etc, whatever but THAT kind of conditioning IMO is for those who have nothing better to focus on; know not what the original purpose of the tool was and have a great need to impress the layman to keep customers coming through the door. Not to mention it's a great way to screw up your hands, if not now then later (arthritis) as have some of those "master" guys who IMO can't fight worth a crap, and have funny looking hands as a result...

As Robert said, the technique is not intended for this kind of thing, it's about the bridge.. WCK uses this tool to gain a connection, take space, bridge, jam, weave energy, etc...

You'd be much better off doing some basic conditioning and learning how to apply the techniques of the system in a realistic manner--something the finger brick breakers have given up long ago... :o

[KPM]

I just like to say I know someone who just a few weeks ago lost about 75% of his vision after hitting a marble slab with his finger tips,so it's no joke if you train incorrectly you can do serous damage.His vision is slowly coming back after some treatment. I myself only hit soft targets with the fingers and hard targets with the fist or palm.

--I've heard this described as one of the dangers of trying to condition the fingers in the past. Most people would scoff at such an idea. Interesting to hear of someone that has actually seen it happen. Of note...there is a entire system of Korean acupuncture that uses points on the hands and fingers. Just as auricular therapy (ear acupuncture) sees the whole body represented in the ear, and foot reflexology sees the whole body reflected on the sole of the foot, this system of acupuncture sees the whole body reflected in the hand.

[k gledhill]

I didnt want to start the previous post I made with you may go blind but the only guy I know who used to stab his fingers into ball bearings ...wears glasses :cool:

Bil sao is like tut sao, only under the bridge to recover the line from underneath, no mystery...bil gee is mainly recovery in unorthodox situations , using the same ideas , only they are not a prefered method for the obvious potential to be trapped ourselves . but its a seamless part of the whole...

if you concentrate on the [bil] finger , you will miss all that heavenly glory ;)

[Ultimatewingchun]

First of all - bil sao is the thrusting blocking hand.

But bil jee is the finger strike that can be used as an attack - coming at the end of a bil sao move.

And my instuctor, William Cheung, has always taught that the way to protect the fingers against injury when using bil jee is to change the direction of the strike at the moment of impact.

Exactly the same principle used in fencing in order to protect the foil tip from not breaking upon impact.

That's why you see the 4 different directions used in the Bil Jee form: left, right, down, up.

All this said, I agree with the earlier poster that it's better to focus upon punching (and to a lessor degree palm strikes) - as bil jee strikes require pinpoint accuracy to soft targets (ie.- eyes, neck, throat, under the arm pit) to be effective.

[Liddel]

And my instuctor, William Cheung, has always taught that the way to protect the fingers against injury when using bil jee is to change the direction of the strike at the moment of impact.

Exactly the same principle used in fencing in order to protect the foil tip from not breaking upon impact.

That's why you see the 4 different directions used in the Bil Jee form: left, right, down, up.

..... this is the same for me in a way. Although im not a TWC man.

When im applying Bui ,the hinge action at my wrist is all important for the finger power, like a mini stabbing action on its own. This is the offensive part of the action. The defencive side to the coin is using the forearm to block certain actions.

Like Vic said there is....Bui Jee...Bui Sao... but i mostly see them as one though.

While the 4 different directions in the form teaches me direction in striking it also is training this wrist power in isolation, cause my elbow is straight in the form only working the wrist.
I take it apon myself to train the action outside the 'form' in a dynamic setting ie Luk / Gor Sao to add body and elbow force to it.

IMO its only ever a follow up action. Its not launched first as a strike at the eyes but would be more like if i landed a good leg kick followed by some punches to the head maintaining my opponents focus on covering then if the target offers itself id take it.

As far as strengthening - ive sprained my fingers so much in the early days of VT sparring, from like my Wu clashing forearms in fast and furious Luk Sao i think there as hard as im gunna get them...which isnt all that hard for being able to injure a guy.

I have seen monks bashing fingers on horizontal bags, then swinging there arms around alot to make the blood go to the tips, rinse and repeat......:o
But ive never been a believer in that sort of training....

DREW
:)

[anerlich]

I've heard this described as one of the dangers of trying to condition the fingers in the past. Most people would scoff at such an idea. Interesting to hear of someone that has actually seen it happen.

Not to call anyone a liar, but I remain skeptical. Surely every keyboard warrior in the universe would be stumbling around bumping into things from the incessant pounding of the fingertips on the keys. Are there any scientifically verifiable studies of significant statistical populations, or just the usual anecdotal stuff?

I've done my share of thrusting my fingers into sand, uncooked beans, and gravel. It's also supposed to be good to grab and clench the fists through the material. I need glasses to read small print in bad light, but at 53 that's to be expected.

That said, I've been told "iron palm drives you mad," and seeing its effect on some of my more committed (no pun intended) sihings who undertook the 100 day program, I tend to agree. I'm not being a smartass here, some of them had weird stuff happen.

I think it's possible to take a lot of these things too far and damage yourself. Just hasten slowly and take care of yourself.

[Phil Redmond]

Hi: I've been thinking about what kind of exercises I could do to strenghten my fingers in order to make my Biu Sau stronger. It's easy to strike the throat and similar "soft" places, but what if I wanted to strike harder places of the body? Any recommendatons. Please limit yourselves to "exercise examples". Thanks
You don't need strong fingers to apply biu sau. Now biu jee is another matter. ;)

[Phil Redmond]

Hello Robert,

So by this explanation a Fak Sau is an example of using Bui Sau? When referring to the "bridge" is there a specific part of the arm brought into play? Seems like you could use the forearm and the wrist and each would involve a different type of both contact and energy so I would be curious as to what differs or if the tem Biu Sau refers to both? What is the difference between striking with the forearm, wrist or hand/fingers/palm and which would be considered Biu Sau and why?

Not trying to be insulting but seems like you are indicating that Biu Sau is more of a concept relying on bridge contact rather than a specific technique. Kind of like the three familes of Taun/Fook/Bong which each gives rise to various techniques under each "families or seeds" concept. If this is the case then perhaps we can identify the shapes or techniques specific to a Biu Sau.

Hey Dave, I agree with Robert. It's a concept where your arm "darts" out. I used to say thrust until I had a professor of Chinese tell me that "darting" better explains biu than thrust. He gave the analogy of the way a Dragonfly darts through the air.

[Phil Redmond]

First of all - bil sao is the thrusting blocking hand.

But bil jee is the finger strike that can be used as an attack - coming at the end of a bil sao move.

And my instuctor, William Cheung, has always taught that the way to protect the fingers against injury when using bil jee is to change the direction of the strike at the moment of impact.

Exactly the same principle used in fencing in order to protect the foil tip from not breaking upon impact.

That's why you see the 4 different directions used in the Bil Jee form: left, right, down, up.

All this said, I agree with the earlier poster that it's better to focus upon punching (and to a lessor degree palm strikes) - as bil jee strikes require pinpoint accuracy to soft targets (ie.- eyes, neck, throat, under the arm pit) to be effective.
6, diagonal left and right for specific points. Oops, I gave away a secret . . . . .lol

[Ultimatewingchun]

Not a secret, Phil.

I've been using the 2 extra diagonal angles with bil jee since before I ever even met William Cheung - 24.5 years ago.

They're used in the bil jee form taught by Moy Yat.

And I've never stopped using them.


(Amoungst other "secret" things. :rolleyes: :cool:)

[Ultimatewingchun]

"That said, I've been told "iron palm drives you mad," and seeing its effect on some of my more committed (no pun intended) sihings who undertook the 100 day program, I tend to agree. I'm not being a smartass here, some of them had weird stuff happen." (Anerlich)

***INTERESTING, Andrew...

The 100 days iron palm training offered by William Cheung is one of the very few things in his system I've never gotten involved with. I always felt it was a bit too extreme and unnecessary.

And besides, my life has already had enough weird things occur within it! :rolleyes: :D

[sihing]

Not a secret, Phil.

I've been using the 2 extra diagonal angles with bil jee since before I ever even met William Cheung - 23.5 years ago.

They're used in the bil jee form taught by Moy Yat.

And I've never stopped using them.


(Amoungst other "secret" things. :rolleyes: :cool:)

You mean, the secret diagonal strikes that Phil just revealed were taught to you by Moy Yat, even before you met William Cheung?? How is that possible, I thought TWC was the secret system passed down exclusively from Yip Man to Cheung Chuk Hing. I'm confused, as the impression I got from Phil's post was that he had knowledge of (or his system teaches) something all the others don't:confused:

The biggest question should be, are the diagonal strikes Phil is talking about, is that part of the NEW TWC curriculum, or the old one that GM Cheung has been teaching World Wide to thousands of students for the past 30yrs or so??


James

[anerlich]

The 100 days iron palm training offered by William Cheung is one of the very few things in his system I've never gotten involved with. I always felt it was a bit too extreme and unnecessary.

Yeah, I feel the same. I couldn't see that it was practical, just some of the same snake oil, black magic stuff used to enthrall the impressionable.



And besides, my life has already had enough weird things occur within it!

You and me both.


You mean, the secret diagonal strikes that Phil just revealed were taught to you by Moy Yat, even before you met William Cheung??

With due respect to all, I don't think it takes an Einstein to figure out that you can use the tech on angles other than horizontal and vertical.


The biggest question should be, are the diagonal strikes Phil is talking about, is that part of the NEW TWC curriculum, or the old one that GM Cheung has been teaching World Wide to thousands of students for the past 30yrs or so??

James, you sound like a recently reformed smoker or the kid on that funny WT thread on Bullshido. Why don't you gush about how great WSL was and Gary Lam is, and how you wasted all that time in TWC, a bit more?

No one's tired of that, are they? :p

[Ultimatewingchun]

In all fairness to Phil - I highly suspect that indeed he's never seen the 2 diagonal bil jee strikes until recently (ie.- since he became the 2nd "closed door" student within the last year or so)...so he believes he's being honest when he says they're secret.

Because I can also vouch for the fact that William Cheung has never openly taught the 2 as part of TWC.

I learned them from Moy Yat - as I indicated.

Phil only spent just a few months in Moy Yat's school...I'm gonna say it was probably around 1976/1977 (I remember seeing him in the class a few times) - as I started in May, 1975 and stayed until May, 1983...so I can tell you quite unequivocally that Phil never learned the Bil Jee form from Moy Yat.

[sihing]

James, you sound like a recently reformed smoker or the kid on that funny WT thread on Bullshido. Why don't you gush about how great WSL was and Gary Lam is, and how you wasted all that time in TWC, a bit more?

No one's tired of that, are they? :p

Same old Andrew, condescending as ever;) I don't recall ever saying that I wasted my time learning TWC?? I don't recall ever directly comparing the two either, but if you like I can give you a detailed breakdown of what the differences are:eek:

You know Andrew, I brag no more about my lineage than you do about yours, but if you don't like it, you can take your dislike and stick it where the sun doesn't shine, your like the pot calling the kettle black:p And besides that I find myself posting less here, as the threads that are prevelant now are either not very interesting for me or are rehashed subjects, so to say that I am yapping about WSL or Sifu Lam to much is simply your problem and no one elses.

James

[sihing]

In all fairness to Phil - I highly suspect that indeed he's never seen the 2 diagonal bil jee strikes until recently (ie.- since he became the 2nd "closed door" student within the last year or so)...so he believes he's being honest when he says they're secret.

Because I can also vouch for the fact that William Cheung has never openly taught the 2 as part of TWC.

I learned them from Moy Yat - as I indicated.

Phil only spent just a few months in Moy Yat's school...I'm gonna say it was probably around 1976/1977 (I remember seeing him in the class a few times) - as I started in May, 1975 and stayed until May, 1983...so I can tell you quite unequivocally that Phil never learned the Bil Jee form from Moy Yat.

The fact that he brings it up here like it is a secret or unique (like it really makes a big difference in someone's ability to fight or use the finger strikes that way by adding two diagonal strikes), tells me lots. Secrets are for marketing masters trying to sell tickets or memberships, and WC has had too much of that for the last decades.

The way I understand the wrists/fingers opening movements in Bui Jee now, it has nothing to do with finger strikes or pressure point hitting, but that doesn't mean I throw away the idea that they can be used for that. There's a time and place for everything.

James

[anerlich]

Nice talking to you, James, as always.

[Phil Redmond]

You mean, the secret diagonal strikes that Phil just revealed were taught to you by Moy Yat, even before you met William Cheung?? How is that possible, I thought TWC was the secret system passed down exclusively from Yip Man to Cheung Chuk Hing. I'm confused, as the impression I got from Phil's post was that he had knowledge of (or his system teaches) something all the others don't:confused:

The biggest question should be, are the diagonal strikes Phil is talking about, is that part of the NEW TWC curriculum, or the old one that GM Cheung has been teaching World Wide to thousands of students for the past 30yrs or so??


James
James, I was joking about a "secret" technique. I thought everyone would get that. But since you're on that road neither your former Sifu nor you have seen all there is to TWC. And that's a fact. That can go for many arts. Think of it like this. Many Sifus could teach one thing at a point in their lives but keep some things to themselves. They do this for many reasons. Students come and go and lots of Sifus don't want to pass out their arts until they find someone they eventually trust or when they get up in age and don't want their art lost. This is NOT uncommon among Chinese Sifus. I'm not trying to slight anyone with my statement or put myself or Keith on a pedestal but I have no control over what is.

[Phil Redmond]

In all fairness to Phil - I highly suspect that indeed he's never seen the 2 diagonal bil jee strikes until recently (ie.- since he became the 2nd "closed door" student within the last year or so)...so he believes he's being honest when he says they're secret.

Because I can also vouch for the fact that William Cheung has never openly taught the 2 as part of TWC.

I learned them from Moy Yat - as I indicated.

Phil only spent just a few months in Moy Yat's school...I'm gonna say it was probably around 1976/1977 (I remember seeing him in the class a few times) - as I started in May, 1975 and stayed until May, 1983...so I can tell you quite unequivocally that Phil never learned the Bil Jee form from Moy Yat.
I met Huey Moy, Moy Yat's nephew, when he was in high school. He brought me to Moy Yat. The school was called Ding Leg back then. It was before I met Duncan Leung. There was also a White Crane Sifu teaching in his apartment. Therefore I was with Moy Yat two different times. I went back to Moy Yat after Alan Lamb left for California. I even had a Moy number which I don't remenber. What year was the school called Ding Leg? That way I'll know when I was there the first time. Victor, the diagonal biu jee was shown years ago. I was joking about "secret". I was just playing on the fact that you probably forgot the other two strikes .
I know you had to have seen them before. I even have a seminar where it is shown. This is getting to be a very funny thread . . . . lol

[Phil Redmond]

Not a secret, Phil.

I've been using the 2 extra diagonal angles with bil jee since before I ever even met William Cheung - 24.5 years ago.

They're used in the bil jee form taught by Moy Yat.

And I've never stopped using them.


(Amoungst other "secret" things. :rolleyes: :cool:)

Victor, a diagonal biu jee would require the wrist to bend. Did Moy Yat teach you to bend the wrist in a biu jee like in TWC? Just curiuos.
Phil

[Phil Redmond]

Not a secret, Phil.

I've been using the 2 extra diagonal angles with bil jee since before I ever even met William Cheung - 24.5 years ago.

They're used in the bil jee form taught by Moy Yat.

And I've never stopped using them.


(Amoungst other "secret" things. :rolleyes: :cool:)
I'll tell you what the secret is. The secret is.....shhhhhh....there is no secret. :D :D :D

[KPM]

Because I can also vouch for the fact that William Cheung has never openly taught the 2 as part of TWC.

---Seems that I remember from William Cheung's very first book....the one on the "Deadly Art of Thrusting Fingers"....that he showed a diagonally angled Bil Gee multiple times in his application pictures. Every time he was striking to the point where the neck meets the shoulder it was a diagonal Bil Gee. I never realized it was supposed to be a secret. :eek:

[sihing]

Nice talking to you, James, as always.

The feeling is mutual:D

[k gledhill]

In my vt we use the SLT as a starting point to develop clearing lines /strikes that function over the bridge /arm as the main fighting method. We use Bong sao vu-sao combo to maitain attacking while the bridge can be sunk by the same means X'ing over or under if the case may need it.

Bil gee contains the same ideas as SLT just from under to outside the bridge of the attacking arm ...the idea being applied while still in an attack, but just that the attacked side is taller , lifts up, etc..not allowing normal SLT bridging techniques to maintain the attack ...so we seamlessly deliver the same idea but under and to the outside of the same side while STILL attacking without stopping.

The Bil gee also has wrist grab removal [ bowing down elbow] very common initial response to our lead arm/wrist attacking ....followed by elbow trap removal strike [ same as tut sao/ freeing hand, but under and to the outside ina snaking sliding transfer as the SLT to flank the arm with arm actions alone ] ...followed by a jumming sidepalm [ sideplam by design is keeping the elbow inward to use the 'idea ' from SLT or from bilg ee back to slt ....and bil retraction as it is done [ rotation strikes self clearing] ..or how to recover the outside flank of an attacking arm while its gone higher than normal without stopping to figure it out and say " now let me think ...SLAP !! dont think feel..if you concentrate on the finger strike you WILL miss all that heavenly glory ...now with me " [love that scene]

the bil gee can be shown a strike with fingers but then so can SLT after jutsao's ...we see it and teach it as simply hitting after juts in a symetrical 'formalized ' manner
.[ Ive done finger jab's in real fights , very functional, accidentaly in sparring Ive recieved fingers in eye's ...we used to spar after every class in my old school with gloves helmets that had wire mesh for eye protection against intentional eye jabs]

[Ultimatewingchun]

"I met Huey Moy, Moy Yat's nephew, when he was in high school. He brought me to Moy Yat. The school was called Ding Leg back then. It was before I met Duncan Leung. There was also a White Crane Sifu teaching in his apartment. Therefore I was with Moy Yat two different times. I went back to Moy Yat after Alan Lamb left for California. I even had a Moy number which I don't remember. What year was the school called Ding Leg? That way I'll know when I was there the first time." (Phil)


***OF COURSE it was called Ding Leg Yard. It was called by that name from the very beginning of Moy Yat's career in NYC (September, 1973) - up until the time he moved the school to East Broadway in Chinatown in 1979. At which point he stopped using that name, as far as I remember.

.........................................

As for the 2 "extra" diagonal bil jee strikes, Keith, let me try to explain it this way. In William Cheung's book, Bil Jee, and within everything he's ever taught openly within the years that I've been with him...(since August, 1983 through to the present)...he shows 4 different angles of bil jee.

1) The hand is held vertically and the fingers change direction to go downward at the end

2) The hand is held vertically and the fingers change direction and go upward at the end

3) The hand is held horizontally and the fingers change direction and go to the left at the end

4) The hand is held horizontally and the fingers change direction and go to the right at the end.


The two others, as I learned them from Moy Yat, are done differently. The actual angle of the strikes themselves - all the way through - do not use a straight horizontal line going directly out from your body toward the opponent. The hand/fingers travel on a diagonal line starting from a place not on your centerline - (although they finish up on your centerline)...and go diagonally out toward the opponent.

Your right hand bil jee strike done in this manner would have the fingers pointing to the left at 45 degrees (although the arm itself starts at 0 degrees)...and your left hand bil jee strike done in this manner would have the fingers pointing to the right (at 45 degrees).

So yes, Phil, the wrist would be "bent" - as you put it.

Getting back to Keith...your fingers are coming at him (ie.- the side of his neck, carotids, etc.) from a diagonal 45 degres angle - even though you might be standing right in front of him.

Hence 2 extra bil jee strikes.

........................................

All this said - this is again one of those things that is much ado about nothing. For although he's never really "taught" any diagonal strikes per say, I've seen some photos here-and-there through the years (ie.- magazine covers, seminar brochure photos)...wherein William Cheung is throwing a diagonally aimed bil jee strike at someone.

[Phil Redmond]

Because I can also vouch for the fact that William Cheung has never openly taught the 2 as part of TWC.

---Seems that I remember from William Cheung's very first book....the one on the "Deadly Art of Thrusting Fingers"....that he showed a diagonally angled Bil Gee multiple times in his application pictures. Every time he was striking to the point where the neck meets the shoulder it was a diagonal Bil Gee. I never realized it was supposed to be a secret. :eek:
Hi Keith, that biu jee was never a secret. I guess my joke failed here. You are right. The diagonal biu jee is in Cheung Sifu's first book many times. Knowing that, I said "secret" in jest but I guess some people have no sense of humor. The diagonal biu jee strike was taught privately and openly at many seminars. I have video proof of that from seminars in New Jersey, Detroit and Toronto.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Well I guess that settles it, Phil.

You were just kidding. :cool:

[KPM]

Hi Keith, that biu jee was never a secret. I guess my joke failed here. You are right. The diagonal biu jee is in Cheung Sifu's first book many times. Knowing that, I said "secret" in jest but I guess some people have no sense of humor. The diagonal biu jee strike was taught privately and openly at many seminars. I have video proof of that from seminars in New Jersey, Detroit and Toronto.

Hey Phil! I could see that you were joking! Given the response you received, I threw in that comment about the technique showing up in William Cheung's very first book to show that there was no way it could be a "secret."

[Ultimatewingchun]

That's funny...because when I looked through the book again yesterday, all I saw were the up, down, left, and right bil jee strikes. Didn't see anything diagonal. Unless there's a misunderstanding here about the logistics of the downward bil jee strike - because it also turns slightly left or right as it does downward - making it look a bit diagonal at the very end.

But that's different than the 2 extra ones I referred to with Moy Yat - which come from a diagonal path right from the get-go.

Yes....the word "secret" can easily cause a stir.

[Phil Redmond]

Hey Phil! I could see that you were joking! Given the response you received, I threw in that comment about the technique showing up in William Cheung's very first book to show that there was no way it could be a "secret."
Whew, thanks. I'm glad someone got it.
Phil

[Phil Redmond]

That's funny...because when I looked through the book again yesterday, all I saw were the up, down, left, and right bil jee strikes. Didn't see anything diagonal. Unless there's a misunderstanding here about the logistics of the downward bil jee strike - because it also turns slightly left or right as it does downward - making it look a bit diagonal at the very end.

But that's different than the 2 extra ones I referred to with Moy Yat - which come from a diagonal path right from the get-go.

Yes....the word "secret" can easily cause a stir.
Some points require a straight on strike. Some require a downward or upward strike. Some require a diagonal strike. It can all depend on how you are positioned with your opponent The strikes of the following pages require diagonal "insertion" for maximum effect with regards to the organ meridians and position: They don't just look diagonal, they are diagonal.
http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/accu.asp
Page 140 pic 4
Page 141 pic 4
Page 145 pic 6

[Ultimatewingchun]

Nice meridian diagrams.

And this has what? to do with bil jee strikes? Are there any bil jee strikes to be found in this link???

[Phil Redmond]

Nice meridian diagrams.

And this has what? to do with bil jee strikes? Are there any bil jee strikes to be found in this link???
Look at the srtikes on the pages I indicated. Then look for the corresponding points.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Looked at the pics on the pages...but I'll still repeat this:

"There's a misunderstanding here about the logistics of the downward bil jee strike - because it also turns slightly left or right as it does downward - making it look a bit diagonal at the very end.

But that's different than the 2 extra ones I referred to with Moy Yat - which come from a diagonal path right from the get-go."

...........................................


THE EXTRA 2 bil jee strikes within Moy Yat's bil jee form are thrown differently....as I said previously here:

"The two others, as I learned them from Moy Yat, are done differently. The actual angle of the strikes themselves - all the way through - do not use a straight horizontal line going directly out from your body toward the opponent. The hand/fingers travel on a diagonal line starting from a place not on your centerline - (although they finish up on your centerline)...and go diagonally out toward the opponent.

Your right hand bil jee strike done in this manner would have the fingers pointing to the left at 45 degrees (although the arm itself starts at 0 degrees)...and your left hand bil jee strike done in this manner would have the fingers pointing to the right (at 45 degrees).

So yes, Phil, the wrist would be 'bent' - as you put it.

Getting back to Keith...your fingers are coming at him (ie.- the side of his neck, carotids, etc.) from a diagonal 45 degres angle - even though you might be standing right in front of him.

Hence 2 extra bil jee strikes."

[Phil Redmond]

. . .
But that's different than the 2 extra ones I referred to with Moy Yat - which come from a diagonal path right from the get-go." . . . .

That's interesting. The diagonal strikes Sifu Cheung teaches start on a diagonal path "from the get-go" as well. In fact, it's part of the finger strenghtening training.

[Ultimatewingchun]

And exactly what position/angle is the arm held when it's thrown...?

and the hand....? Is the position/angle the same as the arm?

and the fingers....? Are they held facing the same way as the arm?

and in what relation to the centerline is the hand/arm when it starts...?

and when it ends?

[Phil Redmond]

And exactly what position/angle is the arm held when it's thrown...?

and the hand....? Is the position/angle the same as the arm?

and the fingers....? Are they held facing the same way as the arm?

and in what relation to the centerline is the hand/arm when it starts...?

and when it ends?
Keeping it simple. The stabilizing hand is in the center line and the biu jee is on the central line. It's all relative to the position and the desired point and the "now" during
the chaos of a fight.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"The stabilizing hand is in the center line and the biu jee is on the central line. "



***TWO SIMPLE QUESTIONS...


1) So the bil jee fingers are facing the target at a 45 degree angle (diagonally) from the central line at the beginning of the move?

2) What angle (0 degrees, 30 degrees, 45 degrees, etc.) is the forearm being held at in the beginning of the move?

[AndrewP]

Hi Phil,

I just wanted to see a picture or video of bending the angle of a finger strike at the moment of impact. I never really concentrated on finger work but am curious about this. Is there anything you can show or refer me to?

Thanx,

AndrewP

[Phil Redmond]

Hi Phil,

I just wanted to see a picture or video of bending the angle of a finger strike at the moment of impact. I never really concentrated on finger work but am curious about this. Is there anything you can show or refer me to?

Thanx,

AndrewP
Here is a clip of Sifu Blaine Collins breaking a board with his fingers. In his first attempt the guys didn't hold the board tightly enough so you will see the blood on the board from his finger tips from his previous try.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SuWsAA3AsjY
I can make a clip of the other angles for you if you'd like.

[AndrewP]

Phil,

First of all, thank you for answering my post.

2nd It seems from the video that he is not striking directly with the fingertips but on the sides of the fingertips.

3rd If it isn't a bother I would love to see other angles in pics/vids.

4th The video looked painful to see. I'm allergic to pain. :)

5th My sifu is able to do it staight on and he never recommends it to his students unless your sure to get into the eyes.

6th My sifu recommended for those who don't train hard with finger conditioning that it's used as an eye poke with slightly bent fingers. He says he's knocked a few people out with that kind of strike

7th Also, when out of reach of a back fist or other odd angle then fishtail the fingers in the eyes and/or nose in order to stop the opponent for a moment to face another opponent or run away.

8th Why poke when punching or palming is much easier and needs a lot less training to get some results.

Please respond.

Thanks!

AndrewP

[Mr Punch]

Seems that I remember from William Cheung's very first book....the one on the "Deadly Art of Thrusting Fingers"....that he showed a diagonally angled Bil Gee multiple times in his application pictures. Every time he was striking to the point where the neck meets the shoulder it was a diagonal Bil Gee. I never realized it was supposed to be a secret. :eek:Aha, seems you got a secondhand book/faulty copy! In the original edition those pages were glued together. It shows how much Vic's biu gee sucks that it's not strong enough to open those pages so he can't see where you're talking about in the book! :D

I don't use a finger thrust. I don't practice strengthening my fingers. I don't believe it is technically desirable or feasible most of the time to hit so accurately with such a weak weapon in the heat of the moment. So I don't use the finger thrust.

I use biu gee as a thrusting deflection and precursor to setting up a more serious strike.

[LoneTiger108]

Hard fingers? Hmmm.

If I was to practice anything as extreme as finger toughening drills, I think I'd also take up the piano or guitar! ;)

All this chat of 'serious' conditioning makes me giggle, as I know a few builders with iron palm who have never even trained in Martial Arts! Toughness just need time to develop.

I tend to agree witht he idea of training other things instead, like accuracy, speed and timing. Hit the pads, and use the wall bags to gradually train the fingers if need be. I've never met anyone yet who could 'spear' the body with their hand...