Inside Kung Fu Bak Mei Butterfly Hand Bak Mei Article ?

[Firehawk4]

In the inside kung fu magazine there is a article on Bak Mei it says there are 12 lineages of Bak Mei and that Cheung Lai Chuns is just one it also mentions a Bak Mei style that comes from Jack Moi of Chicago called Butterfly Hand Bak Mei anybody ever herd of it ?

[Ng Jit]

My sifu Manuel Rodriguez studied Butterfly hand from Uncle Jack Moi in Chicago, it is a subset to his White Eyebrow...

[Yum Cha]

Hi Firehawk,

Without any comment on Uncle Jack Moi, whom I don't know anyway....

We've discussed this before, with all the references, recounts of face-to-face discussions, and confirmation, but people still get confused, or even outright misinformed.

There is one lineage of Pak Mei. It comes from Cheung Lai Cheun. Futsan, Vietnam, Guangzhou, Hakka, Taiwan Military, are all from CLC.

There is some smoke from Doo Wai about his special Pak Mei from Omei, and since he is the only one that knows it, I'll just leave that to your own speculation based upon his character.

There is also talk about a very soft Pak Mei, which best guess is a coincidental common name.

But the ferocious, agressive short armed hakka art that the world knows as Pak Mei comes from only one source, Cheung Lai Cheun.

Since his death, many of his students were cross trained, many have added forms, deleted forms, changed or lost bits and pieces in the evolution, and thus you will see outward differences. This does not make or un-make Pak Mei. Pak Mei is not the forms.

The important issue is that the essence of Pak Mei, the fusion of internal "Sam Chen" based skills, and the external short armed skills remains common, and notable to the trained eye.

If you lose that, or never learn it, its not Pak Mei, no matter the lineage.

[lkfmdc]

many of his students were cross trained, many have added forms, deleted forms, changed or lost bits and pieces in the evolution, and thus you will see outward differences. This does not make or un-make .....



I have nothing to really add, other than this point probably applies to ALL TCMA

[Yum Cha]

I have nothing to really add, other than this point probably applies to ALL TCMA

Exactly.

You could go further to argue that they do actually become different lineages, and fairly so, but from a generation later than CLC. No argument.

The critical issue is that there was no "Blue Grass Monk" in Pak Mei, who spent all his time picking in Nashville while CLC was learning elsewhere, and he handed his additional secret skills of Banjo and Git-ar Fu Pak Mei to only a select few, etc, etc....

Even if there was a lineage from another student of the monk(s) that taught CLC, (and no doubt there were/are) it was what CLC added to the skills (the mixture of the internal exercise and the lifetime of prize fighting) that is the definitive genisis of the art known worldwide as Pak Mei. He put the puzzle together.

If I sound narky on the issue, its not of my own interest.

There are at least two mobs out there trying to sell DVDs and instruction of an "alternative" lineage Pak Mei that are trying to profit on the ignorance of honest students, by leveraging the reputation of CLC.

Of course, they have to claim an alternative lineage, because what they are selling is nothing like the Pak Mei of CLC, but the novice would never know.

There are other lineages that have had fallout with the Pak Mei establishment, and have tried to distance themselves for various reasons as well. I'm not big on politics, just on accuracy.

[lkfmdc]

I'm torn, I'm not sure which is worse, those for whom lineage is everything vs. those who deny all lineage :D

As a former history teacher, you've got to know where you came from, not that it completely defines you, history teaches us about change as well.

But, again, sadly, so many TCMA lines go back to some mystic monk who we can't get anything on, the mysts of the secret past :rolleyes:

Different interpretations are ok, and if you made them up, just say so I guess?

Don't know, really find this stuff disturbing and can't get a handle on it

[Yum Cha]

I'm torn, I'm not sure which is worse, those for whom lineage is everything vs. those who deny all lineage :D


This kinda dovetails with that thread about forms and tradition.

Firstly those that use lineage as a crutch to legitimise their skills are usually the ones that need a crutch, or coat tails, as the case may be.

Also, all the great grand masters were innovators, bringing something new and evolved to the table. The difference being, their new innovations proved to be good, and not just change for the sake of change or "marketing".

Also, I think those innovators often fabricated a source of inspiration or lineage to validate their as yet unproven innovation.

[cjurakpt]

I'm torn, I'm not sure which is worse, those for whom lineage is everything vs. those who deny all lineage :D

As a former history teacher, you've got to know where you came from, not that it completely defines you, history teaches us about change as well.

But, again, sadly, so many TCMA lines go back to some mystic monk who we can't get anything on, the mysts of the secret past :rolleyes:

Different interpretations are ok, and if you made them up, just say so I guess?

Don't know, really find this stuff disturbing and can't get a handle on it

you should read Doug Wile's latest piece on this very issue in the latest JAMA in regards to taiji - he hits the nail firmly on the head re: the whole contrivence of the Chang San Feng myth, and he disects very handily the motivations and methods of the various players over the years who have co-opted the story one way or another for their own personal agenda (Chen family, Yang family, communist party / PRC, etc.)

[Yum Cha]

One of those universal human condition thingys....

I think you'll find, the bigger the style - the more widespread - the more of these 'spin off' issues arise.

It just goes to show, traditional or not, nothing stays the same over the generations, despite the best efforts of the elders. And likewise, not all change is good or bad.

Like the tide, it never stops when you measure it across the generations.

[lkfmdc]

I think if you have studied the literature at all and are intellectualy honest, you have to admit that a lot of Chinese martial artists were illiterates who for a long time weren't interested in history, theory or philosophy.

When time came to get "legit" and questions about history popped up, a lot of times famous historical characters, many ficitional, were just randomly grabbed and inseted into a questionable hodge podge of history

[Yum Cha]

I think if you have studied the literature at all and are intellectualy honest, you have to admit that a lot of Chinese martial artists were illiterates who for a long time weren't interested in history, theory or philosophy.

When time came to get "legit" and questions about history popped up, a lot of times famous historical characters, many ficitional, were just randomly grabbed and inseted into a questionable hodge podge of history

LOL! do ya RECKON?

It gets really interesting when that fictious character suddenly develops a brother, who than spawns a whole 'nother reality predicated on the existance of the first fairytale.

[ittokaos]

Hello Firehawk!

I am glad that you liked the article. My sifu wrote it as a way to promote the style and get people talking about it.

If you would like to know more about it I suggest that you send my Sifu an email or try to get a hold of Sifu Rodriguez. Other than that I dont think that you will be able to find out about it.

[cranky old man]

ozz l wondered how long it would be before youd get on here . hope your well , hows your dad. youve hit the nail on the head . when l first started pak mei no one had heard of it.then up all kinds of " masters " popped up. with there fairy tale lineages. but as my sifu says at least they arent dangerous lol

[htowndragon]

what about zhong luo's futshan bak mei?

[Mas Judt]

'Uncle' Jack Moy owned and taught at the Ho Luck restaurant in Schaumburg IL. He was a friend and contemporary of Sammy Wong, a Chu Gar master who taught in Chicago. Uncle Jack also taught for a few years at the Chinese School, where I taught Shuai Chiao with my classmate Dwight Foster under our teacher Dr. Brian Wu.

I knew Manny Rodriguez, he taught me some Chu Gar and made sure my Shuai Chiao did not s@ck as my coach and training partner in that art. During this time, I learned some of the Bak Mei Wu Dip Sau from Uncle Jack. To say that he was doing this for money is a woefully ignorant statement.

Uncle Jack called it a 'family' method. I.e. it is Bak Mei, but has some added focus/skills. There was no mystical history or even talk of the history. Just about what it was.

While people with BS lineages are annoying, so are those that asume to know everything (yeah, I'm guilty at times too.) .

I cannot attest to what was in the article, as none of those guys looked like what Uncle Jack taught, nothing they said was incorrect either, according to my understanding.

I'm not a 'Bak Mei' guy though, so I cannot judge it's closeness to orthodoxy - although other Bak Mei I have seen was similar.

[ittokaos]

Thanks Mas Judt!

The reason that it didnt look like Uncle Jack's teachings is the fact that all the pictures were of Fushan Bak Mei. The article just briefly talked about Uncle Jack's BM but never really got into it.


I hope this helps,

WF

[Mas Judt]

I figured as much.

[Yum Cha]

ozz l wondered how long it would be before youd get on here . hope your well , hows your dad. youve hit the nail on the head . when l first started pak mei no one had heard of it.then up all kinds of " masters " popped up. with there fairy tale lineages. but as my sifu says at least they are dangerous lol

Hey Cranky", how you been? I'll drop you a line.

[Yum Cha]

what about zhong luo's futshan bak mei?

Hey H.Town. Futsan Pak Mei comes from CLC Pak Mei. What more can you say?

The video of ZL doing Sek Sze on youtube says it all. CLC invented that form, its not one of the forms he learned in the temple, so if someone is doing that form, they are doing CLC Pak Mei.

Of course, you could ask him yourself if you were that interested, I hear he's a real nice guy.

[Mas Judt]

Well, I guess this is as good a place as any to announce the new ancient style of
Bak Mei Do!
















:D

[cranky old man]

we can talk later .

[Yum Cha]

Well, I guess this is as good a place as any to announce the new ancient style of Bak Mei Do!
:D

:eek::eek::eek::eek:

Ok, that's it, I'm sending a chi ball of death your way!

By the way, concerning Uncle Jack. History is filled with great Sifu that have added lessons from the internal skills of Pak Mei to their own arts. The art itself is build on external foundations from several Hakka and southern arts, the internal power generation skills can be applied in many techniques.

In reality, these guys really have a better understanding of the art than the guys that learn a few external forms and hang up a shingle as Pak Mei masters...it has often been called a Sifu's art for that reason.

[htowndragon]

nah, not that interested, i was just wondering because i know his line is one of the lines promoted to be a "non-CLC" line. though they don't really use that as a selling point, they just call it futshan bak mei, and you trace the line and you don't find CLC in it. same goes with Eddie Chongs bak mei.

if i were to learn bak mei i would choose to learn from a known CLC line, just because i have heard some first hand accounts of CLC's skill. an example is henry poo yee the southern mantis teacher personally witnessed CLC sweep a pole that was buried several feet into the ground flat, as in, he knocked off the part of the pole that was standing above the ground and left the rest in there. that's pretty effing ridiculous.

[ittokaos]

The reason that Zhong Luo's and Eddie Chong's lineage is different from CLC is the fact that ZL and EC come from the same teacher.

According to what both say about their lineage's, both ZL and EC's teachers were both taught by the same man:Lau Siu Leung.

They are both from the Fushan Lineage.

I hope that helps,

WF

[Yum Cha]

Hi Itto and HTD

This question of the Futsan lineage was put to rest on this thread below, I thought.

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19051

CLC to Har Hon Hong to Lau Siu Leung. Review the thread, look at the evidence and review the videos if you're interested.

Itto, you were part of that thread, I guess you chose not to trust the information:

1. First hand information from an Australian, who speaks fluent mandarin, who studied Futsan Pak Mei, in Futsan from the masters there, and continues to do so.

2. The fact that they do forms invented by CLC

It kinda clinched it for me.

Merry Christmas all, peace.

[ittokaos]

Hello,

I dont feel like getting back into the whole CLC/Fushan thing. It isn't worth it. In the end you will believe what you want and I will believe what I want. BTW the videos are just that: videos. They really offer no proof what so ever.

I was simply answering the question so I dont really see why you(Yum Cha) feel the need to constantly say that all BM came from CLC? It doesnt but I cant prove it to you so how 'bout we drop it?

Sorry for the rant.

WF

Glad y'all liked the article!

[rogerclf1]

does anyone know if jack Moy or any of his students are teaching in the chicago area still. If so does anyone have contact info. thanks.

[Ng Jit]

I am sorry to say that Uncle Jack has passed away... There were a few who had extensive training with him however if they teach I do not know.

[Mas Judt]

There is no one here in Chicago currently offering Uncle Jack's method.

There were about three or four folks who learned a good chunk of it - Manny Rodriguez is now in California, I don't teach it, and the two others stopped practicing it.

There might be others, but they would be before me, and I don't know them.

[rogerclf1]

sorry to hear about his passing. Anyway thanks for the info.

[Yum Cha]

Hello,
I was simply answering the question so I dont really see why you(Yum Cha) feel the need to constantly say that all BM came from CLC? It doesnt but I cant prove it to you so how 'bout we drop it?
!

Hi Itto,
Hey, I don't live for this stuff, just putting in my two bits on the topic.

It all started with the MacKwoon guy saying he was the only American holder of a secret new undiscovered Pak Mei, and selling videos of pure crap, dissing Eddie Chong and the like. Kinda offended me.

I can tell you, that my Sifu says we are better friends with the people in Futsan than we are with the people from HK, and he's told me a lot more...

Be well, have a great Christmas.

Cheers

[diego]

Hi Firehawk,

Without any comment on Uncle Jack Moi, whom I don't know anyway....

We've discussed this before, with all the references, recounts of face-to-face discussions, and confirmation, but people still get confused, or even outright misinformed.

There is one lineage of Pak Mei. It comes from Cheung Lai Cheun. Futsan, Vietnam, Guangzhou, Hakka, Taiwan Military, are all from CLC.

There is some smoke from Doo Wai about his special Pak Mei from Omei, and since he is the only one that knows it, I'll just leave that to your own speculation based upon his character.

There is also talk about a very soft Pak Mei, which best guess is a coincidental common name.

But the ferocious, agressive short armed hakka art that the world knows as Pak Mei comes from only one source, Cheung Lai Cheun.

Since his death, many of his students were cross trained, many have added forms, deleted forms, changed or lost bits and pieces in the evolution, and thus you will see outward differences. This does not make or un-make Pak Mei. Pak Mei is not the forms.

The important issue is that the essence of Pak Mei, the fusion of internal "Sam Chen" based skills, and the external short armed skills remains common, and notable to the trained eye.

If you lose that, or never learn it, its not Pak Mei, no matter the lineage.

What is "Sam chen?"

[taichi4eva]

I think he means "Sam Chien," a form commonly seen in Fujian kung fu styles.

[5thBrother]

Hi Firehawk,

Without any comment on Uncle Jack Moi, whom I don't know anyway....

We've discussed this before, with all the references, recounts of face-to-face discussions, and confirmation, but people still get confused, or even outright misinformed.

There is one lineage of Pak Mei. It comes from Cheung Lai Cheun. Futsan, Vietnam, Guangzhou, Hakka, Taiwan Military, are all from CLC.

There is some smoke from Doo Wai about his special Pak Mei from Omei, and since he is the only one that knows it, I'll just leave that to your own speculation based upon his character.

There is also talk about a very soft Pak Mei, which best guess is a coincidental common name.

But the ferocious, agressive short armed hakka art that the world knows as Pak Mei comes from only one source, Cheung Lai Cheun.

Since his death, many of his students were cross trained, many have added forms, deleted forms, changed or lost bits and pieces in the evolution, and thus you will see outward differences. This does not make or un-make Pak Mei. Pak Mei is not the forms.

The important issue is that the essence of Pak Mei, the fusion of internal "Sam Chen" based skills, and the external short armed skills remains common, and notable to the trained eye.

If you lose that, or never learn it, its not Pak Mei, no matter the lineage.

I don't Know Pak Mei ... though a related Art Lam Tong Long and have an intereted in Pak Mei Art ... But really liked this post! :)

[Yum Cha]

I think he means "Sam Chien," a form commonly seen in Fujian kung fu styles.

An interesting comparison between Fujian White Crane and Okinawian Karate:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWh-uhw4C9s&feature=related

[sanjuro_ronin]

An interesting comparison between Fujian White Crane and Okinawian Karate:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWh-uhw4C9s&feature=related

There is a lot of similarities AND a lot of differences.
It is quite obvious that the main branches of Okinawan Karate have "southern kung fu" influences and what is also obvious is that the Masters that brought their "kung fu" back from Southern China ( Miyagi, Higaonna, Uechi, etc) ALL modified what they had learned and made it very much Okinawan.
One should never think or assume that because there is a difference from the mother style ( White cane, five ancestor, dragon fist, SPM, etc) that it means that the person was taught something "different" or "inferior", it means simply that they did was ALL MA in their time did:
Modified what they knew to work for them - personalization.