Using A Forward Attack...

[couch]

In this vid:
http://www.pekiti.com/video_clips/palmst.mpg

we see the face being hit to "impede" the Right Punch/Attack. This seems to have some similarity to WC. The only problem I see is that there is no insurance on that Right Attack.

Personally, I wouldn't feel comfortable with this and would rather cover up or jam that Right Attack.

Thoughts from a WC perspective?

Best,
Kenton Sefcik

[YungChun]

Thoughts from a WC perspective?

Eeeeeeewwwwwwww!


Aside from the center energy issuing thing...

It's just another dead technique..

Blauer does it better:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--74CtXS6Y4

So do these guys: :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PL2fYzsmRY

[Dan_chi_sau]

not often that you see two threads that could cross over on here, but IMHO the first thing you do is think about that knife in the right hand, where if anything could do something about it, then maybe it's biu into that right arm elbow joint.(with biu da)
Personally, unless there's a huge pool cue to hand, then I'm running the minute that bad boy starts swinging with a blade, but in a perfect wing chun world, close the gap, biu that knife holding hand, and hope he doesnt have the skill to also deal with your right hand killer bosh to the guys face.

[KPM]

we see the face being hit to "impede" the Right Punch/Attack. This seems to have some similarity to WC. The only problem I see is that there is no insurance on that Right Attack.

---Sure there is! He has the guy off-balanced. He has moved his center of gravity which would make it very difficult for him to launch any kind of attack with his right hand. He could have made it even better by moving into the guy and forcing him to take a step. He likely would really do this in application. Since this is a demo, he probably didn't want to move out of frame.

---I also see this as similar to WCK. Pekitia has several features that make it similar. Why would you wait for him to throw that right hand before you responded to it? He defended by pre-empting the main attack. The attacker never really got his shot off. He angled away and stepped in to off-balance him to keep him from using the other hand, then he retaliated.

---The hand he is controlling the guy with is basically a Fut Sao (or San Sao depending on your terminology) that he has turned into a neck controlled hand (like from the dummy form). He could have continued to draw the guy downward into a rising knee strike if he had chosen to.

[KPM]

but IMHO the first thing you do is think about that knife in the right hand, where if anything could do something about it, then maybe it's biu into that right arm elbow joint.(with biu da)


He never gave the guy a chance to throw it, so why would you consider doing that? Why would you wait for the blow to come, when you could prevent him from doing it from the start?

[KPM]

It's just another dead technique..

---I'm not sure what you mean by that?

Blauer does it better:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--74CtXS6Y4

---The guy never really got a chance to throw his right. That was the whole point of the Pekiti technique being shown!

So do these guys: :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PL2fYzsmRY[/QUOTE]

---Did you notice the attacker had the knife in the reverse grip? Had this technique been used it would have resulted in the defender have his belly laid wide open!

[YungChun]

It's just another dead technique..

---I'm not sure what you mean by that?

The guy is just going through the motions and barely at that.. IMO he couldn't pull off his own technique if the attack was real.

IOW his execution was unconvincing as was the case with the "attack"...

As I said, Blauer does it better and more convincingly...

[couch]

The first two examples in the clip were unarmed.

Irregardless of the knife or not - I'd jam that attacking arm with something. I completely understand the idea behind off-balancing with a centre-based defense, but it's *almost* like the

"shortest distance between two points is a straight line"

theory - where a straight punch beats a round. In a drill/sparring situation, I find it doesn't matter if there's a centre-based defense because my opponent is just then throwing a "fade-away" shot. Just might connect.

The thing with the Blauer demo, even though it is a *slow* John Wayne haymaker (and not a tight hook), it's forward with pressure AND has coverage on attacking limbs.

Best,
Kenton Sefcik

[KPM]

Irregardless of the knife or not - I'd jam that attacking arm with something.

---When dealing with a knife, the two most viable options are either to latch on to the knife limb and control it, or avoid the knife limb and keep out of the line of attack. The Pekiti clip was illustrating option B. I can assure you that they also have plenty of technique for doing option A.

The thing with the Blauer demo, even though it is a *slow* John Wayne haymaker (and not a tight hook), it's forward with pressure AND has coverage on attacking limbs.

---The problem with the Blauer demo if the guy was armed with a knife (which was dealing with option A), is that he did not necessarily adequately control the attacking limb. He was basically doing a Biu Sao. If the attacker had some training, he could easily redirect his attack quickly to strike beneath the Biu Sao. A better technique for option A is a Gan/Jum Sao. One of the basic Pekiti techniques is very similar to a Jum Sao. In training this, Marc Denny of Dog Brother's fame quickly came to the realization that an attacker with a knife could redirect beneath his "Jum Sao" just as I described. So he adapted the technique to add a lower half to prevent this from happening. What he came up with was a Gan/Jum Sao! He calls it the "Dog Catcher." :)

[metadragon]

The clip shows a very basic body angling/ wall response from Pekiti / Dekiti and a lot of FMA. Guys who have done that kind of knife tapping know that it places emphasis on using the Jum sao as the correct hand and the Biu / Tan / etc. as the 'Bad hand'.

From what I understand (my apologies to Tuhon Bill) this angling pulls the body and vitals away from what could be a very long blade thrust into the neck or vitals in an action that is very similar to TWC's 'facing the attack.' It is primarily an emergency response - a jam/ hit would be the ideal case especially if you have a knife yourself. Aside from the structural problems of such a jam, a main technique is the pakal knife where the blade is in ice pick grip and inverted. The blade is then used to clamp the blocking limb and fillet off a huge chunk of skin and flesh in a circular motion before stabbing again. The jum sao makes this less likely since it has a better disengage but hey it's a freakin' knife!

The hit Tuhon Bill uses is also a circular wall / redirect that is prepared for use against the assailant's blade - he just uses on the guy's neck first.

The message that I got from various FMA guros is that you're going to have to move whatever way is necessary anyway - sometimes towards the blade. But given a choice stay away from it.

Later,

Metadragon

[YungChun]

I'd jam that attacking arm with something.

Meanwhile he receives the lead with what looks like a huen sao and just makes like the lead is a walk in the park, the attack was totally unrealistic--no skill but also no intent.


I completely understand the idea behind off-balancing with a centre-based defense, but it's *almost* like the "shortest distance between two points is a straight line"

Two parts of the same animal.. The first guy never really shows the move in a realistic manner IMO.


theory - where a straight punch beats a round. In a drill/sparring situation, I find it doesn't matter if there's a centre-based defense because my opponent is just then throwing a "fade-away" shot. Just might connect.

Absolutely because no one attacks like in the first clip and no one would actually defend a real attack like that--it would never happen like that...

Folks need to understand something called Hick's Law and how it effects how we react and how we can react..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hr7bojwFacA

And when you do go for the intercept, as you say, you really have to do something, take something away and really counter and have good timing, manage distance, etc.


The thing with the Blauer demo, even though it is a *slow* John Wayne haymaker (and not a tight hook), it's forward with pressure AND has coverage on attacking limbs.

A lot of what Blauer deals with is what LEO's deal with, common street attacks. A proper boxing 'tight hook' is normally an inside move..

It was done slow because he wasn't emphasizing the actual move he was talking about the 'bridge' and using the move to transition to whatever you are comfortable with or have trained.. Via the fence and the spear shape which again, uses the same shape WCK does..


The problem with the Blauer demo if the guy was armed with a knife (which was dealing with option A), is that he did not necessarily adequately control the attacking limb.

And the other guy looked more convincing? Yikes.. I think my grandma could slice that guy up with her letter opener... LOL

The CG attack is what SPEAR is all about--CG energy issuing--advanced structure--and use of open hands---sound familiar?

Blauer specializes in knife defense as well and doesn't use goofy moves..

The WCK move also completely controlled the opponent's ability to use the other hand as per the elbow position..

Here's Blauer again showing the CG control aspect better, et al:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWeCWtI3d5c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWWl7tjxe6Q

Energy issuing...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AuA17VoJgNo

[sanjuro_ronin]

Bauer knows his stuff and Tony is open to anyone testing him.
His HighGear Is very good and offers serious protection and no compromise in mobility.
Although the issues that go with all types of protection go with his stuff to.

Many systems advocate that "stop hit/block" to the attacking arms shoulder to block out and control the armed limb, STAB and REDZONE are two examples.

[YungChun]

Remember Chu Fen Do...? :D

Those were the days..

[Dan_chi_sau]

but IMHO the first thing you do is think about that knife in the right hand, where if anything could do something about it, then maybe it's biu into that right arm elbow joint.(with biu da)


He never gave the guy a chance to throw it, so why would you consider doing that? Why would you wait for the blow to come, when you could prevent him from doing it from the start?


If you're suggesting pre-emptive, then yeah, biu da is not the first thing I'd think of. Pool cue, dustbin, bas ruttens 'grab a chair!'. Or just smash his face, eh?
But if I've got time to do that then I've got time to consider leaving. My reference to biu sau was for if the knife is on its way, rather than the head, eat the space, strike and biu.
I drilled this scenario with a friend last night, using a felt pen as a replacement. We tried the way in the video, as well as biu into the knife holding arm, also tried flanking to the non knife side to control. I feel both were better options.
Going for the head had a cartoon on my arm in no time. I think it read 'meet what comes' ;)

[YungChun]

Again... Reality is, um different..

As Dale has mentioned, most of the time you will have NO IDEA he has a knife.. Most folks only realize the opponent has a knife when they feel wet and then notice that they are covered in blood..

Got to shut down the attack, use whatever methods do that..ASAP....

[sanjuro_ronin]

Again... Reality is, um different..

As Dale has mentioned, most of the time you will have NO IDEA he has a knife.. Most folks only realize the opponent has a knife when they feel wet and then notice that they are covered in blood..

Got to shut down the attack, use whatever methods do that..ASAP....

Quite correct, many knife fighting systems have a slew of moves that show how to attack without showing the weapon.
Some systems advocate techniques and principles that can be applied equally vs armed or unarmed attackers.
A knife a impact weapon is basically and extension of an arm and as such, there are many moves that when applied to armed and be used for unarmed, though the reverse tends to be less in number.

The crucial difference is one of action of the fact, while it would be great to pre-empt any attack, especially with weapons, fact is it doesn't happen that way, so much training must be done on how to deal "after the fact".

[Dan_chi_sau]

The crucial difference is one of action of the fact, while it would be great to pre-empt any attack, especially with weapons, fact is it doesn't happen that way, so much training must be done on how to deal "after the fact".


, but IMHO the first thing you do is think about that knife in the right hand, where if anything could do something about it, then maybe it's biu into that right arm elbow joint.(with biu da)



I drilled this scenario with a friend last night, using a felt pen as a replacement. We tried the way in the video, as well as biu into the knife holding arm, also tried flanking to the non knife side to control. I feel both were better options.
Going for the head had a cartoon on my arm in no time. I think it read 'meet what comes' ;)

Maybe i didn't make my point clear....which was to get something between you and that knife (FOR e.g.biu but more importantly) i.e. the nearest limb to the event. I'm suggesting making the knife part of the scenario safer before you start thinking about plugging the guy.
So i guess we kinda agree.

[KPM]

If you're suggesting pre-emptive, then yeah, biu da is not the first thing I'd think of. Pool cue, dustbin, bas ruttens 'grab a chair!'. Or just smash his face, eh?
But if I've got time to do that then I've got time to consider leaving. My reference to biu sau was for if the knife is on its way, rather than the head, eat the space, strike and biu.

---Like I said before, that Pekiti clip is illustrating option B....avoid the strike and stay out of the line of attack while controlling his balance to make a space for your counter. Notice the timing. The defender has an angle on the attacker such that the attacker has to turn to reach him...he is not coming on directly. That gives the defender the time and space to pre-empt, though not necessarily enough time and space to get away. This is what JKD and WCK refers to as "Jeet" or "intercept." He intercepted the attack after it started, but before it had time to develop. But he did this indirectly and stayed out of the line of attack.

I drilled this scenario with a friend last night, using a felt pen as a replacement. We tried the way in the video, as well as biu into the knife holding arm, also tried flanking to the non knife side to control. I feel both were better options.
Going for the head had a cartoon on my arm in no time. I think it read 'meet what comes' ;)

---Did you step into the attacker and off-balance him from an angle before his strike developed? Timing is critical is this type of technique and you must assume control of the attacker right from the start. If you stood directly in front of your partner and waited for the knife to come, then you may not have recreated the situation that the Pekiti clip was showing accurately enough. I still think what it shows is a viable option. Not the only option......

Got to shut down the attack, use whatever methods do that..ASAP....

---Staying off the line of attack and controlling his balance does that. What that Pekiti clip showed was very similar to the TWC approach of going to the blind side. In this case it just happened to be the side WITHOUT the weapon.

[Dan_chi_sau]

---Did you step into the attacker and off-balance him from an angle before his strike developed? Timing is critical is this type of technique and you must assume control of the attacker right from the start. If you stood directly in front of your partner and waited for the knife to come, then you may not have recreated the situation that the Pekiti clip was showing accurately enough. I still think what it shows is a viable option. Not the only option......

basically one of us had the 'knife' (pen). As soon as any movement was made, we acted. I tried the going for the head thing and i could see why it could work, but also ended up getting my forearm drawn on a lot. But then i train wing chun and dont know much about other methods, so i used what i had.

[YungChun]

---Staying off the line of attack and controlling his balance does that. What that Pekiti clip showed was very similar to the TWC approach of going to the blind side. In this case it just happened to be the side WITHOUT the weapon.
I appreciate the *idea* the question is can you, meaning whomever, do it?

Blindside? Wasn't the guy inside the lead?

If so then he was in the middle of both arms, despite the difference in distances between both arms I still call that the front door.

[Ultimatewingchun]

I wasn't able to get that link to play.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I wasn't able to get that link to play.

Were you rooted? did you use your chi?

[YungChun]

I wasn't able to get that link to play.
Which the first clip?

Here..

I moved it...

http://www.mediafire.com/?87mxj2tt4zm

If it won't play what happens?

[Ultimatewingchun]

About the first clip on this thread...

I agree with YungChun/Jim on this when he said:

"Meanwhile he receives the lead with what looks like a huen sao and just makes like the lead is a walk in the park, the attack was totally unrealistic--no skill but also no intent."

........................................

But if you put that together with what sanjuro/Paul wrote earlier:

"Many systems advocate that 'stop hit/block" to the attacking arms shoulder to block out and control the armed limb...

I WOULD KNOCK THE LEAD ARM AWAY AND THEN ASSUME I HAVE TO GO FOR THE ATTACKING ARM AND/OR SHOULDER THAT HOLDS THE BLADE - not his head.

I could push/hit his head and still get stabbed.

[sanjuro_ronin]

About the first clip on this thread...

I agree with YungChun/Jim on this when he said:

"Meanwhile he receives the lead with what looks like a huen sao and just makes like the lead is a walk in the park, the attack was totally unrealistic--no skill but also no intent."

........................................

But if you put that together with what sanjuro/Paul wrote earlier:

"Many systems advocate that 'stop hit/block" to the attacking arms shoulder to block out and control the armed limb...

I WOULD KNOCK THE LEAD ARM AWAY AND THEN ASSUME I HAVE TO GO FOR THE ATTACKING ARM AND/OR SHOULDER THAT HOLDS THE BLADE - not his head.

I could push/hit his head and still get stabbed.

One of the "bred n butter' moves of SPM to counter a hook is the parry and similtaneous strike, via PE fist, to the shoulder, I have had it done to me in sparring ( not a SPM guy) and it worked quite well.

[Ultimatewingchun]

I hit the shoulder all the time against hooks - while blocking/redirecting at the inside of the attacking elbow with bil/lop...

that is, the shoulder of the attacking arm (ie.- in this case it would be the blade-holding arm's shoulder).

You'd have to be dead on against a guy without a clue to get his other shoulder/head before he has a chance to have that knife right there in your face/upper body, wherever...it seems to me.

It could be done - but the timing/distancing would have to be perfect.

Much safer to assume you're going to have to deal with the blade hand I would think.

[couch]

Two things:

First: This is great: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YL3WUMNLjAA&feature=related

and

Second: I can recall from two MA schools that I trained at in particular that had knife-defenses. But after all of it, I don't trust any of it. It had (like most MA's) a lot of single-attacks where the attacker does a straight stab and then waits for me to perform 3-4 moves in succession. The attacker never pulls out or does anything else. It's pretty scary as to what was not only taught to me, but many people.

Does anyone have any experience with knife drills here? Do you find certain training tools indispensables such as the "chalk-knife," etc? Does any of you WC'ers who have been in WC for a while see any valuable lessons that WC teaches in the defense of a weapons attack?

Thanks,
Kenton Sefcik

[Ultimatewingchun]

William Cheung has been teaching unarmed defenses against knives, sticks, etc. for many years. I first learned a bunch of them from him back in the early 90's.

I still work with the moves (and work is the key word)...but I'm always looking into other systems anti-weapons moves as well.

It is valuable because, although the odds are not in your favor, you still need to have these moves in your arsenal in case of an emergency.

[couch]

William Cheung has been teaching unarmed defenses against knives, sticks, etc. for many years. I first learned a bunch of them from him back in the early 90's.

I still work with the moves (and work is the key word)...but I'm always looking into other systems anti-weapons moves as well.

It is valuable because, although the odds are not in your favor, you still need to have these moves in your arsenal in case of an emergency.

Do you find that the defenses fit well with the TWC? Or is the "theory" or "principle" different?

By this I mean when we apply the pole, the Tan Kwan has the "shape" of a Tan as in the way I am holding the pole. Hope this makes sense.

Best,
Kenton Sefcik

[sanjuro_ronin]

Two things:

First: This is great: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YL3WUMNLjAA&feature=related



Too Awesome for words !
:D

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Do you find that the defenses fit well with the TWC? Or is the 'theory' or 'principle' different?

By this I mean when we apply the pole, the Tan Kwan has the 'shape' of a Tan as in the way I am holding the pole. Hope this makes sense." (Kenton)


***THEY FIT VERY WELL into TWC theories, principles, techniques, footwork, strategies...with some extra locks (ie.- wristlocks, elbow locks, shoulder locks) and some takedowns that aren't emphasized as much in the unarmed vs. unarmed part of the system.