Have you used WC in competition?

[Phil Redmond]

Aside form Alan Orr's guys, I was just wondering how many people here have competed in full contact events. I don't mean sparring with friends or students. How did you fair? What were the rules? I fought in full contact matches in Brooklyn the gym where I was trained by Yoel Judah
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3di6HpvWas) and in Fu Jow Pai events in NYC where they allowed elbows, knees, and you were allowed to strike an opponent on the ground.

[Ultimatewingchun]

What year was that?

[Phil Redmond]

What year was that?
Santioned fights, 70's and early 80's. Before I met Sifu Cheung. I won my fights using the hands of the WC I learned before TWC. Yoel Judah and Ralph Mitchell SPM gave me the ring savvy, conditioning and the kicks. There was a meeting of the Sifus after the screening of the documentary this Sunday. Sifu Mitchell and others remembered me being one of the "kung fu" guys fighting full contact. I have his contact info. Maybe he can tell me the year of my first full contact fight where I beat Jonas Nunez. I also did I did fights in the gym where Yoel trained and taught in Brooklyn. That's where I prepared for Fu Jow.

[Ultimatewingchun]

So we're talking about 25-30 years ago....oh....okay.

[Phil Redmond]

So we're talking about 25-30 years ago....oh....okay.
The point is that I DID fight. I started this thread to get input from people who do fight since Keith and I are training fighters. Not to see whose d**k is bigger.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Of course you started it for that very reason.

Do you think you're kidding anybody about that?

[Phil Redmond]

How would you implement WC techs with boxing gloves like used in K 1?

[Sihing73]

So we're talking about 25-30 years ago....oh....okay.

Hi Victor,

And your last competitive fight was when??? Not by students of yours who may or may no longer train with you but your exploits of fighting. Oh, and I do not mean beating up drunks on the subway :D for which you were arrested 97 times either.

[Ultimatewingchun]

I didn't realize you were on the train and witnessed the whole thing - the last time such an incident occurred. (About 14 months ago). Care to tell us about it? So you say he was drinking, huh? Really? :rolleyes:

[Phil Redmond]

Of course you started it for that very reason.

Do you think you're kidding anybody about that?
Actually, I didn't Victor. I really wanted to know if people have/are putting themselves out there to test their skills and if so what did they learn.

[Ultimatewingchun]

I think the point's already been made, Phil. Kinda late to change it now.

But there's always the change-the-subject route!

The question about the gloves is a good start...

[YungChun]

How would you implement WC techs with boxing gloves like used in K 1?
I fought in a couple of tournaments years ago but not like kick boxing..

The way I would adapt to large gloves, I did teach someone who is a boxer and this was a concern, is to simply drill them over and over with the gloves on.. I even had folks put large gloves on when doing chisao in order to get a feel for what is and what is not feasible..

And I'm always looking for ways to 'cheat' and use our techniques or tactics in ways not to call attention to refs..

[metadragon]

Did some amateur Muy Thai back in 2001 and some single stick tournaments (Sayoc).

Generally very good experiences. Lost the MT bout by decision but considering there were a bunch of KO's that day...:cool: Learned how important it is to time biu sao vs overhand right properly( nearly broke my elbow) but counter kicks against the guy's roundhouse were the key.

Some smokers later - guys were better boxers and wrestlers and I was (hopefully) better at TWC. I dominated but it was all pretty impromptu - closer to a throwdown than a full comp.

Did coach and corner my Sihing for his amateur kickboxing match and he won via TKO so maybe I'm better at that than fighting.:D

Later,

Metadragon

[Knifefighter]

Of course you started it for that very reason.

Do you think you're kidding anybody about that?

Wow, Victor is at it again. This time against one of his longtime buddies. Hmmm... what a surprise.

What's the matter, feeling a little insecure because you have never had the guts to enter any kind of full contact competition?

[Knifefighter]

I was just wondering how many people here have competed in full contact events.

I "used" WC techniques in competition boxing (Golden Gloves), kickboxing (local full contact matches), and, even wrestling comps (I was a brainwashed young guy whose WC instructors- who had never wrestled before- told me that it worked great against wrestlers- ya, right).

I used to try to use my WC against the pro fighters when I was in Japan. I ended up preferring their methods.

As far as gloves, I've fought with 8oz gloves, 6 oz gloves, 12 oz gloves, 14 oz gloves, MMA gloves and empty hands. I never found the gloves to change things that much unless you throw grappling into the mix. Even with grappling, if your stuff is any good you should be able to do it with gloves.

[YungChun]

As far as gloves, I've fought with 8oz gloves, 6 oz gloves, 12 oz gloves, 14 oz gloves, MMA gloves and empty hands. I never found the gloves to change things that much unless you throw grappling into the mix. Even with grappling, if your stuff is any good you should be able to do it with gloves.

I can't see how anyone trying to do WCK moves would say that..

The moves WCK uses require just as much dexterity/feeling as do grappling moves or G&P moves--clearing space for hitting and grabbing, slicing into their tools, etc.

Even in regular striking/clearing, the angles change (increase) because the head or hitting end of the weapon, the punch is percent wise much larger than a fist. IME with gloves you need to use a lot more lateral movement--it distorts the natural lines of attack.. A bare fist can much more easily slip through and/or clear small openings and/or intercept, never mind a biu or similar tool.................

If there was really little difference between bare hands and boxing gloves then it wouldn't be so much harder/different to do chisao with them on--and it is, whereas it's more natural to do it with NHB type gloves on..

[AmanuJRY]

I haven't competed yet, but I train with a MMA group at a local Kajukenbo school regularly. I don't use pure WC though, I have a mixed style with a WC foundation. Some techniqes have impressed the Kaju sifu and he has started training them...using a yap gurk vs. using a MT leg check, for instance.

The MMA group is for those training to compete locally, the sifu is a fight manager.

[Ultimatewingchun]

You have no idea how big my balls are, Dale....but then again...I wouldn't expect you to.

True story:

Willam Cheung used to have a nickname for me that he repeated several times to Keith Mazza and Joe Grepo some years ago: The Bull Terrier.

It all started with a certain private lesson I once took with him waaaay waaaay back wherein he thought my request for him to "check out" my chi sao was some sort of challenge (which it wasn't)....one thing lead to another...and the man must have punched me 20 times - including bloodying my face....but I just kept coming.

(He told people afterwards that he never expected to see me again).

And then some years later there was my test for Gold Sash (like first degree black belt)...wherein I went to war with the guy I was told to spar at random with (as in beat on him)....done purposely on my part because certain people within his Association (here on the east coast at the time) were trying to play politics about who can fight - and who can't...yadda, yadda....Well there was never any doubt in anybody's mind after that day as far as Victor Parlati was concerned...

and then there was the time after that - when in order to defend William Cheung's honor against a certain someone from another part of the wing chun world - I risked getting jail time (and was arrested and had to appear in court 5x)...


and so on.

Guts to fight in a competition?

Don't make me laugh!

Nobody who really knows me (of which you're clearly not one) would ever question my guts.

No...this is...as usual.....World Wing Chun Kung Fu Assocation politics at work - once again. It's all about false pride, false claims, and creating false impressions....and trying to steal other people's fire and light.

For "positioning". What else is new? But I do know this much: there are A LOT of people past and present within the Association who are Somebody (and who can back up what they believe in action)..who respect what I am - and what I can DO.

As opposed to some paper tiger resume guys who can only do about half of what they'd have you believe they can DO.

[Askari Hodari]

I haven't competed yet. I'm hoping to compete in some amateur kick boxing in the next 18 months. I'll be using WC and Capoeira.

[Ultimatewingchun]

And this clown is a moderator?! :eek:


Yeah....riiiiiight.:cool:


I'm just sooooooo upset, Dave. :rolleyes:

[Phil Redmond]

I think the point's already been made, Phil. Kinda late to change it now.

But there's always the change-the-subject route!

The question about the gloves is a good start...
No, it's just after knowing you all these years I don't need to waste time in a p***ing contest with you so I took the high road and stayed with the subject of the thread.

[Wayfaring]

You have no idea how big my balls are, Dale....but then again...I wouldn't expect you to.

And this may be true. However, you have no idea how gay this sounds. :eek::eek::eek:

[Ultimatewingchun]

You know what, Phil....since the subject is now gloves...let's just take the gloves off.

I've covered you these past 6 years that I'm on this forum for the sake of family unity and to promote and defend William Cheung and his TWC with a unified face. And I spent a great deal of time defending him (when necessary) - and plenty of time trying to explain what TWC was all about...

which I believe I did faithfully....but not without telling it like it is from-time-to-time because I don't believe in lying for the sake of "loyalty".

Now as for you and your high road....

1) At my first William Cheung seminar in Boston, 1983...you knew me already (though not well) from your very brief time spent at Moy Yat's...don't remember exactly how it came about...but you and I had some verbal dispute about the nature of certain wing chun chi sao techniques that weekend (the Saturday session)...

which resulted in some chi sao between us....Quickly ending in a pak da that brought a bil jee finger strike stopping short of your eye by about an inch while I simultaneously had both your arms trapped with one of mine...

and you were much more agreeable and friendly after that. Now before you do your typical denial thing about this (ie.- as in lie about what happened)...keep in mind that there are still people around (and I'm thinking of at least one right now who went on to be a VT instructor under Moy Yat) who saw what happened and could vouch for it....

2) Now let's flash forward to August, 1984...and William Cheung appointed me, you, and Sonny Whitmore to open the first NYC TWC school after testing the three of us for Level 3 toward the Gold Sash...

and those subsequent classes were run by the 3 of us for the next few years (about 3-4 years) until Sonny droppped out (only to open his own school in Queens a few years later) and you moved to Connecticut.

Now about those 3-4 years that we were together: I DID MORE TEACHING (and direction setting) than you and Sonny combined (again: something that can easily be verified by people who are still around)....And do you remember the big "political" stink about the fact that immediately after that August, 1984 seminar William Cheung only sent me the training curriculum for the classes - and no one else. (Of course I made copies for you and Sonny - and of course I gave you and Sonny the autographed photos of himself that William had addressed separately to each of us)....

and he sent the top TWC guy in the United States at the time (dai-sihing Blaine Collins) to stay with me a few times a year to add to our instruction in-between William Cheung's visits to NYC...during those early years...wow....what a stink about that too, huh, Phil?

3) And I passed my Level 10 (Gold Sash) a few years before you and Sonny...by then still running the NYC (Manhattan) TWC school by myself...although by now Jesse Quinnones also had a Manhattan school...

4) And with all this...to this very day...you still try to pass yourself off as my "sihing"...because you had became William Cheung's student 2 months before I did (you had attended his June, 1984 weekend seminar in California).

Now keep in mind that this is not your typical wing chun family....William has grade levels that have to be tested for...unlike other wing chun "families"...it's not like you're ranked ahead of someone because you joined 5 minutes before him.

5) Correct me if I'm wrong...but wasn't it me who was ready to fight 6' 8" - 300 lb. Cedric...aka...Ali/Rahim...on your behalf a few years ago after he came on this forum again-and-again trying to punk you and lie about you during your time in Detroit? Wasn't he supposed to show up at the Cleveland Wing Chun Sparring Get Together that I suggested and organized and challenge/fight me? (Turns out he didn't show - but I was ready to take him on - wasn't I)?

6) And while you've gone on to take all the Master Level tests and I have chosen not to...isn't a fact that I took my first Master level test back in 1993 (you were just recently a Gold Sash by that time)....and I decided to wait 10 years before taking anymore tests (2003 was my next one)...even though everyone who knows me knows that I've "mastered" the material for the remaining tests years ago? (I've just chosen for $ reasons not to take any more tests for the time being).

7) Isn't it a fact that you wanted to know where I got all the material I used for the UNDERSTANDING TWC thread I did here about 5 years ago - since you never heard/read/saw much of what I wrote before? Which I updated only about 10 months ago for Brian Scanlon's (Byond 1) WING CHUN WIKIPEDIA.

And now you're on here trying to tell everybody that you're "relearning" TWC since you've become the 2nd "closed door" student of William Cheung? Trying to imply that there's all these "secret" techniques that no one has ever seen/heard of before? But now you're getting them. And when I asked you on a recent thread to name even one THAT WOULD ACTUALLY MAKE A DIFFERENCE in an encounter with a highly skilled TWC guy (without all the alleged secret material) - you never responded...

Case Closed.

[Liddel]

And this may be true. However, you have no idea how gay this sounds. :eek::eek::eek:

Yes thats at least a 7.5 on the gaydar.

I recently saw a Doco where i guy had injected his 'junk' with some silicone or the like.... he had the biggest set in the world but.....

HE COULDNT GET IT UP ! :rolleyes:

Doesnt matter how big your 'anything' is, can you use it...oh wow...back on topic !

I havent competed, venues here have been limited over the years i never liked the rules implemented, no elbows etc etc they took most of my bread and butter. The only thing that interested me was an open weight class...

Perhaps next year :rolleyes:

:cool:
DREW

[anerlich]

I competed in State level Kung Fu champs that were full contact maybe 20-25 years ago. How full was the contact? Full enough for there to be several KO's and a smattering of injuries.

At 53 with at least one missing tooth as a direct result of cumulative impact, I've had my fill of getting punched in the face. Some of my younger fellow WC students compete and sometimes win in MMA, kickboxing and BJJ, though we don't regard it as so significant need to post everything on youtube to justify ourselves to internet forum members, support DVD sales or prove our lineage has unique perspectives or qualities the others lack, etc. YMMV and nothing wrong with that as long as you don't expect everyone to treat you as a demigod, genius or revolutionary.

I hope to be competing in full contact grappling for a while yet.

Dave:

That sort of post is something a regular forum member might make. I've done it myself too often. Probably bad form for a moderator, though.

[Phil Redmond]

Victor, is it possible for you to stay on the thread subject?

[Knifefighter]

Victor, is it possible for you to stay on the thread subject?

LOL... Phil, you are a model of restraint.

Victor... to lay into someone with whom you have supposedly been friends with for 25 years about your petty little issues on a public forum is the height of a$$hole-ness. You really are the little beotch I always figured you for.

[Mr Punch]

Haven't been around the forum for a while, cos frankly I've got better things to do... but this thread's a classic in the making! First, let's try a serious answer.
As far as gloves, I've fought with 8oz gloves, 6 oz gloves, 12 oz gloves, 14 oz gloves, MMA gloves and empty hands. I never found the gloves to change things that much unless you throw grappling into the mix. Even with grappling, if your stuff is any good you should be able to do it with gloves.I think this is an unusual thing to say too. You obviously can't grapple with 16oz boxing gloves to the extent that you can with MMAs, neither can you punch the same way with them as you want to in WC. I'm not saying that you shouldn't be able to fight with 16oz boxing gloves if you've been training WC, but I'm saying you can't do a standard WC punch with any effectiveness with 16ozes.


Sorry, just having a little bit of fun:o So easy to get Victors GoatBad, bad moderator...! I think you still have Victor's goat from a previous time actually... you never did give it back to him!


And this may be true. However, you have no idea how gay this sounds. :eek::eek::eek:Yes. That was pretty flaming.


I've covered you these past 6 years that I'm on this forum...Sorry Victor, but I don't see you ever having covered Phil. He's a growed-up and seems quite capable (and mature) enough to cover himself. The only pity is that people like him aren't around so often on these boards becasue of petty ****ing contests.
1) At my first William Cheung seminar in Boston, 1983...you knew me already (though not well) from your very brief time spent at Moy Yat's...don't remember exactly how it came about...but you and I had some verbal dispute about the nature of certain wing chun chi sao techniques that weekend (the Saturday session)...

which resulted in some chi sao between us....Quickly ending in a pak da that brought a bil jee finger strike stopping short of your eye by about an inch while I simultaneously had both your arms trapped with one of mine...Oh **** me pink. I do not believe that anyone would take a chi sao session from 20-****ing-4 years ago as proof of anything! Anything at all. On top of that, the fact that you remember it in such details smacks of Asperger's syndrome or mild autism, not to mention a serious and unrealstic over-reliance on technique over principle (I can never remember a chi sao session after about a day in terms of the techs, only uin what principles I need to work on). And on top of that the fact that you believe that a biu sao of all things, stopped so close to someone's eye, is proof of anything is doubly (triply?) laughable. Apart from the fact that it was chi sao FFS, if you'd ever speared someone in the eye in full contact sparring (I have and I've received them too) you'd know that this means marginally less than Jack **** - full contact is where the theory really gets you to remember which specific techniques are bull**** over chi sao anyday.


and you were much more agreeable and friendly after that. Now before you do your typical denial thing about this (ie.- as in lie about what happened)...ROFLtastic! He's probably not denying it, he's prob humouring you! :D 'Yeah that's right Vic, you got me there...' - if he even remembers it.


2) Now let's flash forward to August, 1984... hooblah hooblah4) And with all this...to this very day...you still try to pass yourself off as my "sihing"...because you had became William Cheung's student 2 months before I did (you had attended his June, 1984 weekend seminar in California).

Now keep in mind that this is not your typical wing chun family....William has grade levels that have to be tested for...unlike other wing chun "families"...it's not like you're ranked ahead of someone because you joined 5 minutes before him...hooblah hooblah 6) And while you've gone on to take all the Master Level tests and I have chosen not to...1) If you are banging on about the traditional stuff like it matters, like it or not Phil's your sihing because he started two months before you. Fact. Like it or not. Nobody else cares really tho...
2) You put a lot of stead in Cheung's grading system, and then point out that Phil took more grades than you, which for whatever reason makes him... ahem, your sihing.

I'm mad as a bag o' spannersCase Closed.BTW, 'we' were talking about if anyone had ever been in a full-contact comp. I haven't. Have you?


I recently saw a Doco where i guy had injected his 'junk' with some silicone or the like.... he had the biggest set in the world butLOL at Liddell... yeah, 'doco'...?! We know... we know the kind of sites you go to! :eek: :p


Some of my younger fellow WC students compete and sometimes win in MMA, kickboxing and BJJ, though we don't regard it as so significant need to post everything on youtube to justify ourselves to internet forum members, support DVD sales or prove our lineage has unique perspectives or qualities the others lack, etc.Some of us would love to see any of it you have knocking around tho, just out of interest.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Made my points - and really don't care what Dale or anyone else think about it. This has been coming for a long time. Maybe now I won't have to go over this again. Perhaps now the occasional memory lapse about who's who and what's what that some people suffer from will be permanently cured.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think that competition is crucial,more so than "street fights" in terms of ones developments.
Success in competitions, while important, can be Overplayed by many, look at:

Angelo Dundee
Emanuel Stewart
Cus D'amato

All have trained world champions and the best in the game, yet, they were never the best AT the Game....

Only in the MA do we expect our teachers/coaches to be uber-men and undefeatbale.

Fact is, if we take the above as examples, what you know and how will you can train someone is far more important than how good a fighter you are/were.

[KPM]

I think that competition is crucial,more so than "street fights" in terms of ones developments.
Success in competitions, while important, can be Overplayed by many, look at:

Angelo Dundee
Emanuel Stewart
Cus D'amato

All have trained world champions and the best in the game, yet, they were never the best AT the Game....

Only in the MA do we expect our teachers/coaches to be uber-men and undefeatbale.

Fact is, if we take the above as examples, what you know and how will you can train someone is far more important than how good a fighter you are/were.

---Excellent points! I have often thought the same thing. How many college or NFL football coaches were ever star players themselves? Look at Greg Jackson. He has produced fighters like Diego Sanchez, Keith Jardine and Nate Marquardt, and guys like Georges St. Pierre and Rashad Evans have gone to train with him....yet he was never a big-name fighter himself.

[sanjuro_ronin]

---Excellent points! I have often thought the same thing. How many college or NFL football coaches were ever star players themselves? Look at Greg Jackson. He has produced fighters like Diego Sanchez, Keith Jardine and Nate Marquardt, and guys like Georges St. Pierre and Rashad Evans have gone to train with him....yet he was never a big-name fighter himself.

Some are great fighters, some great teachers, very few are both and even fewer are trainer of champions.
Probably because fighting and teaching/coaching/training are different things, as a fighter you use what works for you, as a coach/teacher/trainer, you must fine what works for others and how to maximize that.
Much easier said then done.
BUT, fighting experience is still a must.

[Lohankuen1]

You see it in every sport. Those who are successfull in coaching/teaching, what have you might not have been the greatest at the sport but have that ability and knowledge to pass it on and make things work for others. The Phoenix Coyotes have not been or close to being at the top the last few years and they have the best player in the game as their coach, Wayne Gretzky.

[couch]

As I have a very small training group here in the Harbour - my wife always gives me a hard time about the saying:

"Those who can't - teach!"

:),
Kenton Sefcik

[Phil Redmond]

Made my points - and really don't care what Dale or anyone else think about it. This has been coming for a long time. Maybe now I won't have to go over this again. Perhaps now the occasional memory lapse about who's who and what's what that some people suffer from will be permanently cured.
Your points didn't prove anything except that you are one sad man. The people who count know who's who and what's what. Let's move on.

[monji112000]

I "used" WC techniques in competition boxing (Golden Gloves), kickboxing (local full contact matches), and, even wrestling comps (I was a brainwashed young guy whose WC instructors- who had never wrestled before- told me that it worked great against wrestlers- ya, right).
care to share the "lineage"? Just for my own personal interests nothing more.




As far as gloves, I've fought with 8oz gloves, 6 oz gloves, 12 oz gloves, 14 oz gloves, MMA gloves and empty hands. I never found the gloves to change things that much unless you throw grappling into the mix. Even with grappling, if your stuff is any good you should be able to do it with gloves.
I 100% agree. Its a different feeling but thats about it. I never heard anyone really claim that WC can wrestle.. well Emin does..

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Your points didn't prove anything..." (Phil)


***EXCEPT for the fact that you couldn't answer any of them.


Hmmm.....

[monji112000]

"Your points didn't prove anything..." (Phil)


***EXCEPT for the fact that you couldn't answer any of them.


Hmmm.....

OK this is really pathetic. if you guys can't make arguments entertaining like the CTS disciples and students then keep it off the forum.

[CFT]

"Your points didn't prove anything..." (Phil)


***EXCEPT for the fact that you couldn't answer any of them.


Hmmm.....Said points mean absolutely nothing to the rest of the forum. You want to air your grievances - do it within TWC circles.

[Phil Redmond]

Said points mean absolutely nothing to the rest of the forum. You want to air your grievances - do it within TWC circles.

I agree whole heartedly. I tried to keep this in private emails. I never planned on having it aired here. I'll be moving on.

[Phil Redmond]

I think that competition is crucial,more so than "street fights" in terms of ones developments. . . . .
I think the same. In a street fight there are different elements involved that might not require skill. Anyone can pick up a bottle, bat, stick or whatever and not have any martial arts skills. In a competition you should be using the skills you trained in against some one else who is doing the same.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"I'll be moving on."


***THAT'S a good idea.

[sanjuro_ronin]

As far as gloves, I've fought with 8oz gloves, 6 oz gloves, 12 oz gloves, 14 oz gloves, MMA gloves and empty hands. I never found the gloves to change things that much unless you throw grappling into the mix. Even with grappling, if your stuff is any good you should be able to do it with gloves.

50-50 on this one Dale, the bigger gloves tend to facilitate "blocking" a little better and people tend to "hit harder" the more padding they have on their hands.
The issue of "arm endurance" is another thing, but not that great a deal.
Doing "typical" WC punches with 14oz and 8oz as compared to using a "typical boxers strike" is noticable, but nothing that can't be tinkered with.

Bare knuckle VS 14oz will create some differences in delivery, namely people will tend to be alot cleaner in their shots bare handed than they will with "pillows" on their hands.
Most people will also, like I mentioned before, hit less hard bareknuckle than with 14oz.

[Sihing73]

Hello Everyone,

I apologize for my previous post where I edited Victors comments. I was only trying to have a little fun. However, those who opted to respond were correct and I should not have posted such. I want to offer an apology to Victor and any Forum members whom I may have inadvertently offended. I assure you it was all in the spirit of fun, but ill conceived just the same.

On a more serious note, I hope that Victor and Phil can work out whatever differences they may have. I believe that both have much to offer this forum. While we may not always agree, each person here brings something to the table.

Again sorry!!

[sanjuro_ronin]

Disagreement = debate

This is not a bad thing, I don't understand how anyone can have issues with people disagreeing with them, debate is half the fun, sure its not as much fun as doing jell-o shots of Jessica Alba's crotch, but what is ?
:D

[Ultimatewingchun]

I accept Dave/sihing73's apology. We all go over the line now and again. What Dave did is no big deal.

As for the issues between myself and Phil...I still believe that certain things that should change would never even have a chance of coming about without a public airing....since it's very easy to sweep things under the rug in private emails...and then go back to business-as-usual on a public forum....(or even privately within one's immediate circle, ie.- the World Wing Chun Kung Fu Association).

Since nobody was any the wiser if it was all handled hush-hush.

Harder to do when certain issues are exposed to public scrutiny.

That said...it is time to move on. I've had my say...and presumably Phil has said all he wanted to as well.

[Phil Redmond]

I accept Dave/sihing73's apology. We all go over the line now and again. What Dave did is no big deal.

As for the issues between myself and Phil...I still believe that certain things that should change would never even have a chance of coming about without a public airing....since it's very easy to sweep things under the rug in private emails...and then go back to business-as-usual on a public forum....(or even privately within one's immediate circle, ie.- the World Wing Chun Kung Fu Association).

Since nobody was any the wiser if it was all handled hush-hush.

Harder to do when certain issues are exposed to public scrutiny.

That said...it is time to move on. I've had my say...and presumably Phil has said all he wanted to as well.
Victor, I was told that I shouldn't post the email I sent you here. I wanted to keep this between us, which you didn't. When you posted and said gloves off I almost did post the email but decided to take the higher road. I hope you take the higher road as well.
Let's not bother the other members with this anymore, ok?

[Ultimatewingchun]

I've nothing further to say about this at the present time. High road, low road, whatever road....and whatever anyone says about who's traveling by what road...

No more of this for now.

[Phil Redmond]

Has anyone sparred with a boxer while using boxing gloves? If so were you able to pull off WC techs?

[monji112000]

Has anyone sparred with a boxer while using boxing gloves? If so were you able to pull off WC techs?
yes. It was only in a "light manner" although it hurt just the same. It was a kickboxer.

[YungChun]

Has anyone sparred with a boxer while using boxing gloves? If so were you able to pull off WC techs?
Yes I trained/sparred with one boxer for a while and sparred with another.

But pull off WCK techniques can mean all kinds of things.. I don't seek to stick nor do I feel the intent of the system is to do so... :)

[Knifefighter]

Has anyone sparred with a boxer while using boxing gloves? If so were you able to pull off WC techs?

I broke a guy's nose with an outside pak sao once with boxing gloves.

[YungChun]

I broke a guy's nose with an outside pak sao once with boxing gloves.

You mean an outside pak da?

<edit>

Where you pak with one hand and hit with the other?

Was there contact first or did you use it as an entry?

[Knifefighter]

Pak sao- right arm to right arm.

[Ultimatewingchun]

So if you just hit his arm - how did you break his nose?

[YungChun]

Pak sao- right arm to right arm.

So you pak his rear with your lead it sounds like, if both orthodox.. And hit with the other?

I assume there was no initial contact.? This kind of pak can be done with or without prior contact..

[Knifefighter]

Pak to the arm, hit to the face.

[Liddel]

Has anyone sparred with a boxer while using boxing gloves? If so were you able to pull off WC techs?

Uppercuts VT Jabs and my adapted stright punch which sifu calls the Banana punch cause of its slightly curved path, but apart from punches :rolleyes:

I always use VT actions against two of my boxing buddies. Actions such as -
Upper Guarn
Outside Pak
Tan
and at very specific times.... lower (Dai) bong.

Guarn is a great action IMO cause it is naturally present due to my boxing 'head guard'...meaning hands up already by my head, only waist turning/angling and wrist power needed which can come quick. Its also my centering action for cover when i over commit or my partner evades to a blind side...

Outside Pak is extremly natural with the lead and when my lead is tied up in close and a punch comes my rear can Pak to... very common IME.

Tan is a little more rare in my case but ive found is used well when peppered and i need to make space while moving foward. It also serves to protect while clearing space for me to launch my own attack.

Dai Bong has served me well. One sparring partner has very powerful body shots which ive weathered with Dai Bong actions at times (and a good head guard with the other hand)... in fact its more like Qwan Sao.....

The thing that serves me most when sparring with boxers is my elbows... my VT behaviour means they protect me body well even when i let actions in past my bridge(s).

DREW

[martyg]

First off, someone mentioned to me what was going on here and I couldn't believe it. Had to check it out myself, and did a double take when I saw it. Where this was coming from against Phil, I don't get it. He's a stand up guy, and someone who's always tried to portray his sifu and his family in a positive light.

As far as roads, in recent years I prefer the less beaten path. Less stress and people calling you out on public forums.

With regards to the topic - Phil, that's exactly a concern I had with training Ty for his match at the Milwaukee Rumble. We train bridging and interacting with the person's force vectors from all over the body, so the hands not being as available physically wasn't an issue. What is an issue with the gloves though is psychologically. As soon as you strap those big pillows on (they used 16 oz. gloves), those almost become your "world" in your mind as far as offense and defense. You start focusing on what you perceive that you can and can't do because of the different feeling. So I developed a training plan for him that included tricks to focus on specific things that would take his mind off the gloves and allow his natural bridging/interaction skills to come out. If you want, give me a call and we can talk about some of them. Love to hear your experiences as well.

Here's two videos from that match of him with those pillows strapped to his hands:

1) Tyrone sweeping a kick (gan), covering a jab (pak), sweeping (lop) a hook, in to press (gum).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_oPCBXxat8

2) Tyrone knocking out his opponent with a front kick (always another option ;) ).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgmGrhCgWQA

[YungChun]

Dai Bong has served me well. One sparring partner has very powerful body shots which ive weathered with Dai Bong actions at times (and a good head guard with the other hand)... in fact its more like Qwan Sao.....

The thing that serves me most when sparring with boxers is my elbows... my VT behaviour means they protect me body well even when i let actions in past my bridge(s).

Do you wear the gloves? What size and do you also work with smaller NHB type gloves?

The dai bong I used to find useful sometimes against upper cuts by just dropping it down into the center, like a dai bong da which I never heard of before, and also used pak..

I found it much easier to use the smaller gloves though and also keep the standard triangle shape guard on the outside--just seemed to give more options. My main focus was attack though and most of the time if an actual trapping type move happened it was because something suddenly was in the way on the inside, very quick and natural.

[Jeff Bussey]

Hey Phil,

Has anyone sparred with a boxer while using boxing gloves? If so were you able to pull off WC techs?

I did a short stint at a boxing gym here in Ottawa and actually I would do pak sao and then punch with the same hand. Kinda what Dale said except I punched in the face instead of leaving my hand open. Boxing has something similar to pak, you kinda flick punches away

J

[couch]

Hey Phil,


I did a short stint at a boxing gym here in Ottawa and actually I would do pak sao and then punch with the same hand. Kinda what Dale said except I punched in the face instead of leaving my hand open. Boxing has something similar to pak, you kinda flick punches away

J

I experienced the same "flick" on my boxing stint in Calgary. The flick wasn't "center" oriented, but was effective nonetheless. The partner drill was to flick a jab away with the rear hand and then fire a jab back immediately with the lead hand. The key element of the drill was to not let that rear-flick hand leave the chin for too long or have it go too far. Just enough to parry.

Best,
Kenton Sefcik

[LoneTiger108]

All my boxing and competitive training was done before I started Wing Chun.

I can still remember certain moves I liked and drilled as a kid that were definite point scorers! Mostly legwork though as I was fighting oldskool Karate guys who could only use their reverse punch. I think I was of the Urquidez/Wallace type generation. A time when the hands were put to the test by the feet, and lost!

Still, during my boxing days I never made it into the ring for a competition, as I was used as a sparring partner for the 'long-term' guys. I remember being hit in the face for the first time with gloves on. Expected it to be like a sponge, but no, it was a brick! :D

Looking forward to Seni'08 though, as I've heard of a possible Chisau Competition being planned (by Alan Orr). Couldn't enter myself, I feel, but some students may enter if the rules and promotions look good.

[AmanuJRY]

pak da and similar types of techs are called 'counter punching' in the MMA group I work with and I find that in this area, my chi sau skills definately give me an advantage....usually resulting in a clinch or takedown attempt.

[YungChun]

pak da and similar types of techs are called 'counter punching' in the MMA group I work with.
How about when PakDa is used from an already *in contact* condition?

[monji112000]

How about when PakDa is used from an already *in contact* condition?

I would see that position as clinching. For me I would make space or clinch.. not throw a pak sao.

[YungChun]

I would see that position as clinching. For me I would make space or clinch.. not throw a pak sao.
So in order to use WCK techniques you have to NOT be in contact????????:eek::confused::rolleyes::o

[YungChun]

I would see that position as clinching. For me I would make space or clinch.. not throw a pak sao.
In your avatar we see someone applying inside pak da where one arm covers two with a simultaneous strike..
Are you saying one would need to apply that move from an initial point of no contact--or outside of contact range?????

[kung fu fighter]

Hey Guys,

I have also fought full contact under san shou rules and won the Canadian heavy weight championship back in 2001. One of the most important things is to apply your wing chun "alive", as well as to control the ring space.

Thanks
Navin

[anerlich]

I would see that position as clinching. For me I would make space or clinch.. not throw a pak sao.

On one of Rodney King's DVD's he shows how to use a move very similar to an inside pak and threading arm to counter the Thai clinch.

AS you suggest, the pak is used to make space. It works quite well.

[sanjuro_ronin]

On one of Rodney King's DVD's he shows how to use a move very similar to an inside pak and threading arm to counter the Thai clinch.

AS you suggest, the pak is used to make space. It works quite well.

His clinch boxing or "crazy monkey" one?

[Liddel]

Do you wear the gloves? What size and do you also work with smaller NHB type gloves?

Against my boxing buddies i wear 16oz gloves, we dont have head gear so we only use my bag gloves (6 and 8oz) in pad work or very very light sparring or harder 'body shots only' sparring...... we mix types of sparring up a bit.

Ive personally not tried MMA gloves. Put them on in the store, would like them alot i think cause i get much more wrist action which gives me added power and usage out of my VT habbit actions.

Thats why Guarn Sao and my elbows are the biggest asset i have when wearing big gloves, no wrist play needed...its all in the forearms :D

When you use MMA gloves what type of wraps can/do you use, or are they not necessary with some/all brands ?

Merry xmas you lot...

DREW

[anerlich]

His clinch boxing or "crazy monkey" one?


the "Rodney King's Street Boxing" series. From his time with Matt Thornton.

I didn't mean to imply that WC had a whole suite of applications in the clinch necessarily, only to point out there were some possibilities.

Drew, best wishes to you and all you other argumentative b******s as well. :D

[stricker]

i think gloves can benefit the wing chun fighter in a ground and pound situation, or sorry, wing chun can benefit the gloved fighter, as you use forearm contact and elbow position to control limbs rather than having to grip using your wrist...

also, yeah there are many similar actions in wing chun as in other martial arts, as in all martial arts... pak sao/biu sao as a thai clinch escape is one, pak-punch in boxing another, etc... how you train is more important than technique, or having a concept or whatever, its doing it...

ps ex-wing chunner (who still has a place for it in his heart) ****ing about on the forum, have competed in am muay thai and adcc rules grappling... props to everyone who steps up, its not the critic who counts...

[Phil Redmond]

Hopefully Sat. I can make a short cilp of ways to use 14-16 oz gloves while sneaking some WC into the mix.

[reneritchie]

There are definitely different skill sets.

Some amazing fighters are p!$$ poor teachers from whom only incredibly gifted, visual learners with super-high kinesthetic awareness could ever hope to learn anything.

Likewise, Liborio, widely regarded as one of the best BJJ people on the planet, doesn't seem able to compete to save his life. In training, he taps world champions like he's in the cast of Rent, but under the stress of tournaments or pro-MMA fights, he just nerves completely out.

Yet others have an almost preternatural ability to spot mistakes in others and yet remain oblivious about mistakes in their own application which cost them any real personal skill.

Strange ways indeed.

(I competed in Judo, Karate, grappling, and BJJ but never WCK. I don't particularly enjoy it but find it essential for experience and personal improvement. I've only sparred with heavy gloves and found it disorienting -- like big hat day).

[KimWingChun]

Ultimatewingchun,

I think you should really give a little more respect to your Sihing Phil...

:D

Peace

[AmanuJRY]

How about when PakDa is used from an already *in contact* condition?

What's 'in contact'? ....touching hands, or clinch?

The Kaju guys I work with would probably just call it clinch work...but that would obviously be chi sau range to a wing chunner.

Counter punching is more akin to entering/bridging the gap....Lat sau.

[Big Vern]

Guys.
This has been probably one of the worse reads on this forum for some time.
I dont know any of you personally, but hey as an observer I would say that anyone who can remember such inane detail about past skirmishes and inter club politics needs to get a new interest and let go from being attached to what is wholly unimportant material.
This clip may focus the mind of the talkers and hone their training to consider that being able to fight like this whether you are WC/MT/TKD/MMA etc would indicate that your training was worthwhile.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=328YVJVtMKU&feature=related

Cheers.
BV>

[Ali. R]

5) Correct me if I'm wrong...but wasn't it me who was ready to fight 6' 8" - 300 lb. Cedric...aka...Ali/Rahim...on your behalf a few years ago after he came on this forum again-and-again trying to punk you and lie about you during your time in Detroit? Wasn't he supposed to show up at the Cleveland Wing Chun Sparring Get Together that I suggested and organized and challenge/fight me? (Turns out he didn't show - but I was ready to take him on - wasn't I)?


I was told by the person that hosted that get together not to come to his school and fight with you, based upon someones request that he the host received prior to that event... ;)

How ironic that one take pleasure in using my name to prove to the world that he has balls… By the way I’m 6-4 265lb...


Ali Rahim.

[Ultimatewingchun]

And I was told by you that you were coming to Cleveland anyway....and would email me when you got there. And we were going to meet up somewhere else other than the guy's school. Or have you forgotten?

But then again...at this point...Who cares?

[Ultimatewingchun]

Btw...Got a phonecall/voicemail from Phil yesterday saying that "I know you hate me, Victor - but Merry Christmas anyway"...and then I called him back and said: "I don't hate you, you son-of-a-bi_ch - and Merry Christmas..." :eek:

So by the end of the conversation it as all good! :cool:

I think he wants to show me some secret techniques the next time he's in town. :)

Can't wait to explore the dark side of TWC...:rolleyes: ;)

[aaron baum]

big verns words say it all...warriors...

top clip my friend...i well enjoyed that...tough as nails..

proper

aaron

theres no escape when you cant grapple or clinch...gotta stand and take it like a man!!

[Ultimatewingchun]

And yet the more I look at the clip posted by Big Vern the more I see tons of punches that are connecting that could have been and should have been avoided, blocked, parried, or CAPTURED - from a wing chun perspective and from a wrestling/grappling perspective.

(And the same with a bunch of the kicks).

Not taking anything away from the toughness and skill shown in the clips - those guys were serious and very good...

but if some wing chun infight and wrestling/grappling game were added - what we saw would become a whole different fight.

Coming from a real life, real fight point-of-view. You don't want to trade punches and kicks like that when it's all on the line. It's not about proving one's machismo it seems to me. It's about survival.

That kind of clip makes for exciting "sport" - but I don't place too much stock in that kind of fight strategy.

[Mr Punch]

...tons of punches that are connecting that could have been and should have been avoided, blocked, parried, or CAPTURED - from a wing chun perspective and from a wrestling/grappling perspective.

(And the same with a bunch of the kicks).
Victor, that's the most ****ing retarded thing I've ever seen you say. :D Care to elaborate?

[Ultimatewingchun]

Of course not, Mr. Punch....as that was one of the most glaring troll posts I've ever read! :rolleyes: :D

[Ali. R]

Coming from a real life, real fight point-of-view. You don't want to trade punches and kicks like that when it's all on the line. It's not about proving one's machismo it seems to me. It's about survival.




I just have to go with Victor on this, he's 100% right... Now that’s defensive fighting…


Ali Rahim.

[Mr Punch]

Of course not, Mr. Punch....as that was one of the most glaring troll posts I've ever read! :rolleyes: :DWho, me? (Where's that innocently fluttering eyelids smiley when you need it!? :D )

I'd still be interested in your answer though, sir.

BTW, although me, you and Ali have our differences, I'd still be interested in your opinions on this. (http://http://martial.best.vwh.net/forum/showthread.php?t=49509)

Dive on in, before the water's too hot! ;)