Wing Chun & Ju Jitsu...Samuel Kwok & Carlson Gracie

[Ultimatewingchun]

Check this out and then let's hear some comments...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3jJ-lb7N8A&feature=related

[monji112000]

Check this out and then let's hear some comments...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3jJ-lb7N8A&feature=related

its a great idea, I would love to see the same thing but with a boxing and a MT fighter too.

[Phil Redmond]

its a great idea, I would love to see the same thing but with a boxing and a MT fighter too.
We have boxers including a pro that trains with us. I'll try to get a video.

[Knifefighter]

Carlson's WC "experiment" (which was more of a JKD "straight blast" intepretation of WC) came in with a bang with Vitor Belfort's flash KO of Vanderlei Silva and went out with a whimper because of Vitor's inability to use it after his initial success, as well as his other fighters not thinking much of it and having more success combining Muay Thai and boxing with their BJJ.

[YungChun]

Carlson's WC "experiment" (which was more of a JKD "straight blast" intepretation of WC) came in with a bang with Vitor Belfort's flash KO of Vanderlei Silva and went out with a whimper because of Vitor's inability to use it after his initial success, as well as his other fighters not thinking much of it and having more success combining Muay Thai and boxing with their BJJ.
Was this Carlson Gracie's final thought as well?

[Mr Punch]

Yeah.

I like the way it was billed as two masters, like Sam Kwok is on equal footing with Carlson Gracie.

I hope there's a lot more on the DVD than Sam's one-gigantic-step/one punch 'combos' against an outstretched arm... not what I'd have chosen to showcase as a basic skill set to seasoned martial artists (or indeed ever), which I guess is OK, as it didn't seem like many of Gracie's bunch were joining in anyway. It's only an hour DVD? So it probably doesn't have much to see: at the rate they were both talking on that clip anyway.

Would seem that Gracie's lot wouldn't have that much to gain from this 'exchange'... wonder how much it cost and how much Gracie got, and for that matter, how much bosom buddies those two really were...

Apologies for being negative: it may have been great, and I'm all for cross training - just looked, somehow, like a bunch of old arse to my jaundiced eye.

[YungChun]

Apologies for being negative: it may have been great, and I'm all for cross training - just looked, somehow, like a bunch of old arse to my jaundiced eye.

I agree on the surface in that we don't see the WCK actually showcased.. The question IMO is if Kwok has the skill level to do and teach the material at the level needed--we don't see it there, although what was seen was passable, just not 'enough' or in the right context.

They need to show the WCK guys who are actually able to do it when the otherguy is doing MT or whatever more excepted style or method--full contact.. When they DON'T show this it immediately raises a red flag and WCK has some catching up to do rep-wise..

Even if they got someone who could perform the system well, it would also have to be teachable and probably in a really short time... If this happened then IMO within months you'd see loads of new NHB folks doing it.

[LoneTiger108]

I can remember reading up on this event in the UK magazines. It was quite a while ago I believe, and possibly helped to secure a good relationship with BJJ & Wing Chun people.

Or so I thought, before hearing similar reactions to our 'Mr Punch'.

The truth be known is, if the Gracie Camp wanted this to happen and contacted Hong Kong for a representative, and they spoke to Ip Chun or Ip Ching, Sifu Kwok would have been the only guy they recommend. WHY? Because that's the business of Wing Chun people! ;) Even if it happened the other way round, who would Sifu Kwoks students wish to learn from with current trends being the way they are?

Commercial status lends itself to the ageing Martial Artist, and Sifu Kwok is no spring chicken! He's possibly one of the oldest practitioners in the UK who still teach under the official Ip Family banner, learning directly from both of Ip Mans sons. He is also a very friendly and approachable character, which helps with seminars like this IMO.

[Mr Punch]

...who are actually able to do it when the otherguy is doing MT or whatever more excepted style or method--full contact.. When they DON'T show this it immediately raises a red flag and WCK has some catching up to do rep-wise.. Nah, I don't agree with that. You're saying for a one-day seminar they should have to go into full contact against a Thai boxer? I'm just saying there are plenty for alive, skill-based and sparring based drills they could do to show first timers.

[YungChun]

Nah, I don't agree with that. You're saying for a one-day seminar they should have to go into full contact against a Thai boxer? I'm just saying there are plenty for alive, skill-based and sparring based drills they could do to show first timers.
I don't mean a 12 round fight----I mean an alive/resisting partner with skills.......

The compliant demo doesn't cut it..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcNZTCrHUiE

The noobs will say wow, great! But the real fighters will just roll their eyes..:rolleyes:

[Mr Punch]

You know, Lone Tiger, I just read your post and I've no idea whether you thought it was a good thing in the end or not, or whether you were agreeing with me or not...! :D

It is late here tho.

BTW, I wasn't putting Sam down (I'll leave that to Nick Forrer if he appears on this thread!). I like Sam's stuff. He has 'something' I've rarely felt from others, but unfortunately that includes his own seniors. He also has a lot of dodgy demos out there, esp his famous 1" punch you could measure with a foot-rule. But hey, deoms are demos. My ex-sifu who is IMO one of Sam's unsung heroes swore by him... but there's a helluva lot of crap in his line. He's a commercialist first and foremost and very traditional after that.

Not an ideal combination for quality MA.

[YungChun]

More demos..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDnm0YiNfcA

These moves show a false idea of timing and what's actually *doable* in real fighting... Most of those moves rely on *demo timing* bad attacks and are not realistic expressions of the system as shown, the timing/reaction is totally unrealistic.

The one move where he inside paks a high round kick is whacked..

But IMO just putting this stuff out there says a lot......

[Mr Punch]

Aye, it's all ****e.

[KPM]

More demos..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDnm0YiNfcA

These moves show a false idea of timing and what's actually *doable* in real fighting... Most of those moves rely on *demo timing* bad attacks and are not realistic expressions of the system as shown, the timing/reaction is totally unrealistic.



--I don't know that I'd go that far. I think a lot of what he was showing is "doable." But I would have been more impressed if he had just let his partner ad lib in a sparring session and allowed the technique to come out unscripted.

[YungChun]

--I don't know that I'd go that far. I think a lot of what he was showing is "doable." But I would have been more impressed if he had just let his partner ad lib in a sparring session and allowed the technique to come out unscripted.
Hicks law is in effect...

When you know what's coming you start your perfect counter at the same exact time as does the attacker--as does everyone who does these kinds of demo moves..

In reality the beginning of the counter happens substantially later than we see in these and other demos because there is a perception/cognitive delay.. This is why in real fighting you see folks taking the offensive and not waiting for attacks.. Sure counter attacking and intercepting works, but not like this..... How often do we see the moves shown as shown in any real fighting or sparring?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Demos are demos, I don't put stock in them at all.
At times they seem totally unrealistic, heck I even saw demos of people counter the shoot with a flying knee or doing a jump spin hook kick in MMA !!
Imagine that !!

;)

[YungChun]

IMO a demo used legitimately can be used to teach something that has actual merit.. Folks can start off slow and apply a move to a known attack, etc.. Then you up the ante, etc..

But when you need to hold out demos as the example of the fighting value of the system then you are all show and no go.. To show fighting value of a system or style or method you have to show actual fighting.. The actual fighting will not look anything like what we see there in most cases as 'demoed'.... Those who have been around the block can see right away what is reasonable and not just based on the timing and motion used...

[KPM]

Hicks law is in effect...

When you know what's coming you start your perfect counter at the same exact time as does the attacker--as does everyone who does these kinds of demo moves..

In reality the beginning of the counter happens substantially later than we see in these and other demos because there is a perception/cognitive delay.. This is why in real fighting you see folks taking the offensive and not waiting for attacks.. Sure counter attacking and intercepting works, but not like this..... How often do we see the moves shown as shown in any real fighting or sparring?

---Good points! That's why I would have rather seen the techniques show up in an "unscripted" fashion. But given good reaction and timing, there's really no reason why at least several of the techniques demo'd couldn't show up in such a fashion. Not every attack comes in at lightning speed. Just watch a few UFCs. :)

[LoneTiger108]

You know, Lone Tiger, I just read your post and I've no idea whether you thought it was a good thing in the end or not, or whether you were agreeing with me or not...! :D

I agree that it was a commerically driven event, and I'm a huge seminar fan to be honest so any exchange is a good thing if you ask me! Judgment on its effectiveness would have to be left to the participants though IMO and it would be good to see if they both get together again.

[YungChun]

But given good reaction and timing, there's really no reason why at least several of the techniques demo'd couldn't show up in such a fashion.

If by "show up" you mean look nothing like what was seen in the demo then I agree.. :D:cool:

[couch]

IMO a demo used legitimately can be used to teach something that has actual merit.. Folks can start off slow and apply a move to a known attack, etc.. Then you up the ante, etc..

But when you need to hold out demos as the example of the fighting value of the system then you are all show and no go.. To show fighting value of a system or style or method you have to show actual fighting.. The actual fighting will not look anything like what we see there in most cases as 'demoed'.... Those who have been around the block can see right away what is reasonable and not just based on the timing and motion used...

I somehow don't think demo's are for the "seasoned" martial artist. They are for trade-shows and events...to grab inexperienced people with a little bit of trickery.

I remember rolling up in a Bak Mei school in Calgary to check it out. The Sifu had all the students stop class and they put on a whole demo for us! Full of breaking chopsticks on the neck and breaking rocks with one finger! The boys & girls had skill with their MA, but also had this other Chi-Building stuff. Heck...I'm an Acupuncturist and there's only so much I can take!!!

I'm picking up what you laying down, however. I do like the idea of, say, Tony Blauer, who never does another take on his vids. If he screws up, so what?!? He's human. Or, like the nonchalantness of Gary Lam's backyard Chi Sau. That's what makes a good demo to me...the seasoned (what?!?) MAist.

Best,
Kenton Sefcik

[Nick Forrer]

BTW, I wasn't putting Sam down (I'll leave that to Nick Forrer if he appears on this thread!). .

*puts hands in pockets and whistles as he walks past thread *

[anerlich]

The truth be known is, if the Gracie Camp wanted this to happen and contacted Hong Kong for a representative,

I don't think they'd bother, in the IMO unlikely event that Carlson was serious and not just being polite. IMO there is as good or better WC in other parts of the world as there is in HK, probably including Brazil.

Suffice to say very little came from this as regards MMA competition.

It's good to see two senior MA's cooperating, but having been to at least five BJJ seminars given by name Brazilians with my WC instructor over the last few years, training weekly in BJJ and MMA with a senior guy from another WC lineage at a BJJ/MMA school, and hosting seminars at our kwoon by the head of Aussie Machado BJJ several times a year, it's hard for me to regard this as revolutionary or groundbreaking. "About friggin' time" is my immediate response.

If there's a DVD for sale, and its another 60 minutes of this, IMO your money is better spent, unless it has posterity value for you as a Kwok or Carlson student.

[Tom Kagan]

Carlson's WC "experiment" (which was more of a JKD "straight blast" intepretation of WC) came in with a bang with Vitor Belfort's flash KO of Vanderlei Silva and went out with a whimper because of Vitor's inability to use it after his initial success, as well as his other fighters not thinking much of it and having more success combining Muay Thai and boxing with their BJJ.


Uh ... huh?

I feel a need to point out Vitor's vanquishing of a young Wandy is from 1998, whereas this seminar was in 2004.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"I feel a need to point out Vitor's vanquishing of young Wandy is from 1998, whereas this seminar was in 2004." (Tom Kagan)


***Go figure...huh? :rolleyes:

[Knifefighter]

Uh ... huh?

I feel a need to point out Vitor's vanquishing of a young Wandy is from 1998, whereas this seminar was in 2004.

Carlson had done some stuff with WC/JKD guys pre Silva/Belfort, which piqued his interest... hence the incorporation of the straight blast into Vitor's game. I think by the time of the seminar, he didn't really have much interest in it anymore.

[Tom Kagan]

Carlson had done some stuff with WC/JKD guys pre Silva/Belfort, which piqued his interest... hence the incorporation of the straight blast into Vitor's game. I think by the time of the seminar, he didn't really have much interest in it anymore.


This is the first time I've heard of this. I don't suppose you have more information regarding the specifics of who he was working with and how it came into being?

[stricker]

I've seen the dvd of the seminar, and i thought it was a bit was a bit ****.

[Liddel]

Carlson had done some stuff with WC/JKD guys pre Silva/Belfort, which piqued his interest... hence the incorporation of the straight blast into Vitor's game. I think by the time of the seminar, he didn't really have much interest in it anymore.

Can one really offer insight into why or why not he didnt continue to show a Blast of punches like that.....

like it had nothing to do with Vitors sister getting kidnapped and him loosing the plot mentally with regard to fighting.

I dont think one can speculate either way......:rolleyes:

DREW

[Liddel]

--....edit..... I would have rather seen the techniques show up in an "unscripted" fashion. But given good reaction and timing, there's really no reason why at least several of the techniques demo'd couldn't show up in such a fashion.

The thing that gets me about Demos or even stuff you get in books... is NONE of it is spontaneous yet we see flaws in the basics.... WTF?

Given actions are known prior to things kickin off, wouldnt one expect the technique to look more 'perfect' than most demos do.....

In the Kwok Demo we see Sam use a Tan against a round punch but he uses all his arm (very little body turning into the punch) which means his Tan arm has a little flying elbow...its plain to see..... and this is a dam demo ????

The same goes for still pics ive seen in books.

DREW

[Ultimatewingchun]

One of the things we've been working on quite a bit in wrestling class lately is combining wing chun with standing clinch work:

Going in-and-out of clinch range with strikes as part of the mix....pummeling to underhooks....or pummeling - which can get very close to chi sao in it's actual mechanics - to elbow strikes...which is very similar to simply using huen sao (small circling hand) to go right into over-the-top elbow strikes with the same arm to hit the head/face within the space that the huen sao has just opened up on the inside path...the same huen/pummel type thing can also be followed by knee strikes at lower targets in the same way as the elbow strikes just described - meaning the huen sao/pummel opened up the line, etc.

The more I work with it the more I see how chi sao/wing chun skills can mesh very easily into a standing wrestling/grappling situation.

And of course the Muay Thai double collar tie to knee strikes is right there in the same vicinity as well - which wing chun chi sao (similar to pummeling technique) can also make possible to get.

And when you combine all of this with the fact that wing chun specializes in short, quick, elbows in techniques (also important for wrestling/grappling/pummeling in the clinch)...and of course elbows-in mostly vertical punches which can be high percentage at close quarters - although horizontal punches can also work at slightly longer range (like I said earlier: going in-and-out of clinch range)...

you can easily see how a Carlson Gracie might have seen/been intrigued by similar possibilities when he first looked at wing chun.

[Knifefighter]

Can one really offer insight into why or why not he didnt continue to show a Blast of punches like that.....

like it had nothing to do with Vitors sister getting kidnapped and him loosing the plot mentally with regard to fighting.

Or going off the juice, maybe.

[YungChun]

In the Kwok Demo we see Sam use a Tan against a round punch but he uses all his arm (very little body turning into the punch) which means his Tan arm has a little flying elbow...its plain to see..... and this is a dam demo ????

Do you mean that there should normally be turning used with most of these kinds of moves? Like for the round punch and tan da, one should normally turn to do this?

[monji112000]

Carlson's WC "experiment" (which was more of a JKD "straight blast" intepretation of WC) came in with a bang with Vitor Belfort's flash KO of Vanderlei Silva and went out with a whimper because of Vitor's inability to use it after his initial success, as well as his other fighters not thinking much of it and having more success combining Muay Thai and boxing with their BJJ.

Well Its sam kwak, but its still nice to see people doing something like this. I would love to see more. It would open allot of people's eyes as to what works and what doesn't.

[Ali. R]

If you train correctly it all should work, when taking away from the system of wing chun you’ll be literally tossing it right out of the window (the system). Sam participation within this you tube clip, does not warrant a verdict beside this statement…


I would love to see more. It would open allot of people's eyes as to what works and what doesn't.

No one can make the system of wing chun work for you, only you can do that for yourself… If one chooses to put self in the way and deviate from what he has learned, it should be called something else, but not wing chun…


Ali Rahim.

[T.D.O]

as regards to the demo.... it's just that.... a demo

i think maybe one of you should offer him a square-go, and find out if he can fight


but to shoot some one down like that, with master kwoks skill and knowledge... is a bit uncalled for.... do you not think?

wing chun is meant to be simple is it not? and one step one punch is as simple as it get's

i fail to see the problem.... is it your own insucurity of the system (of which master kwok is a good teacher of) or what other people think of it?

i doubt some of the stuff my sifu's teach me, untill i try it and it works

as master kwok say's him self use what works and throw away the rest

i agree that good wing chun shouldn't need to be thought of just acted, which i'm sure if walked up to him on the street and swung at him, he would be able to do

[Ali. R]

Throwing away what is useless to one self and especially in a system that one has not completed: is like one who intends on dropping out of school and going only for the GED, instead of a high school diploma, then marking one self as an MD. (quick fix)…

Just as a doctor, you have to have a strong understanding to be able to take different routs when needed… If the understanding is limited then the choices or routs will become very small or limited… I just couldn’t have a doctor that choose to only have a GED, and have and know of very little options while operating on me…


Ali Rahim.

[T.D.O]

as master kwok say's him self use what works and throw away the rest

I don't take from that, you should only teach/learn what works, but use what works in the situation.... but simple minds think simply:(

[T.D.O]

here ali.... is that you in they videos in yer sig link?


what's with the non elbow-knee connection in thoughs over exaggerated steps?


and what's with all the pish your spouting? :lol:

[Ali. R]

If the situation always changes, and if you do not explore and studying the whole art for what it is, then how can one adapted when he is told to throw away what he cannot understand or use at that moment?

How does one know what works if he doesn’t put in the real time on what he do not understand or cannot apply?

I’m always connected; sorry you got the wrong guy…
http://detroitwingchun.com/kenart1.htm

I will not fight with you; I will only stay on subject, and it seems like that will drive you mad, if not, why the off subject statements?


Ali Rahim.

[Liddel]

Do you mean that there should normally be turning used with most of these kinds of moves? Like for the round punch and tan da, one should normally turn to do this?

IMO - Yes. A step or turn. For better recieving structure and for issuing more power in the punch.
The horse and hands should always be combined together IMO.

If you notice, without even the slightest turning one can see Sam (at least in this vid) has a touch of flying elbow...its outside his body. While it may be solid cause hes strong or whatever, the structure could be improved IMO. This is VT elbow stucture - being supported by being inside the body width.

http://nz.youtube.com/watch?v=kDnm0YiNfcA

Pause at 9 secs = flying elbow. Heels look a little off the ground to if you want to nit pick :)

Which brings me to my point -

Im the first one to acknowledge actual fighting is messy. My point was that often in demos and books we see imperfections in technique when the situation itself is manufactured, which means your in control of every aspect and it should be practacally flawless.

NB= i do realise that may not be Sams beliefs on applying techs, with turning.
Im not trying to put the MAN down....so that aside....

My point about demos etc still stands

What do you think ?

DREW

[reneritchie]

I once watched an MMA-focused wrestling session. Some of the stuff was so shockingly like the WCK I learned (specificaly the Fung Siu-Ching stuff) I literally did a double take.

Whenever I see WCK done long-range, like kick boxing, it looks somewhat alien to me. This stuff, though not WCK, looked applicably similar.

(For that I plead the Excel vs. Lotus defense - similar platforms attempting to achieve similar goals will end up with similar methods, be that spreadsheets on computers for book-keeping or bipeds trying to bash each other around for survival).

[YungChun]

IMO - Yes. A step or turn.

Okay, I thought you only were talking turning/"sitting".. I'm not a big outside turner, never found much use for it in sparring...

I agree but I also see the power generated from 'a step' possible without a proper step.. IOW just the compression, release but without actually taking a step..

And I don't use my Tan that way, as in the flying elbow you mentioned.

Real fighting is so organic that these kinds of 'dead' demos IMO just don't convey the reality of fighting or WCK in fighting..

The true response of a real WCK man when dealing with these kinds of attacks, especially the half ass ones, IMO probably would not look much like the moves in the demo...

I think folks need to move past demos and just show live stuff, it's not that hard to do and it can help everyone better tune into reality....

[Ultimatewingchun]

"I once watched an MMA-focused wrestling session. Some of the stuff was so shockingly like the WCK I learned (specificaly the Fung Siu-Ching stuff) I literally did a double take.

Whenever I see WCK done long-range, like kick boxing, it looks somewhat alien to me. This stuff, though not WCK, looked applicably similar." (Rene)


***WHICH SERVES to confirm a point I've been trying to make countless times now - wing chun is primarily, first and foremost, an INFIGHT.

Not that there aren't some nice long range-to-short range moves available in certain wing chun systems (TWC being one of them)...but adding some boxing type hands/footwork (and some longer range kicks than what most wing chun systems use)...

adding these things to the mix (and of course wrestling/grappling) can work out VERY WELL.

As I constantly preach to all my students (and whoever else will listen)...what you DO in a fight (ie.- what types of strategies and techniques you use) will ALWAYS depend upon the distance between you and the opponent.

.............................................


And I might also add that it's this very thing (my conviction about this) that sometimes gets me into hot water with my sifu - but I can live with that. He's dynamic enough never to really hold that against me in any serious way...whereas I can think of at least one guy within the inner circle who has a real problem with that. But I just look upon it as "professional jealousy" and move on - even if my pushing back on him (from-time-to-time) upsets some bystanders on the outside. He's a very popular guy...(and most of the time one of my favorite guys).

But such is life. We all live and learn.

[T.D.O]

I will not fight with you; I will only stay on subject, and it seems like that will drive you mad, if not, why the off subject statements?


Ali Rahim.

but your allready off the original subject :p

[T.D.O]

Aye, the flying elbow..... sifu say's he does that in chi sau as well, but his sensitivity is at a level were you cant exploit it


though he does these things, he doesn't teach or tell any one that it's ok to do it



but any way, i would like to see real fighting in demo's, i've been trying to get my sifu's to get the gloves on for a while now

[Ali. R]

but your allready off the original subject :p


When being a professional of whatever; let’s say a doctor, lawyer, or collage professor, you just can’t throw away what you don’t understand… If so, here are some of the immediate outcomes that could very much happen:

If a doctor throws away information that he has learned: over half of his patient could die…

If a lawyer throws away information that he has learned: all of his clients could do serious jail time and the possibility of disbarment…

If a collage professor throws away information that he has learned: then all of his students will be unprepared in the careers that they have chosen within their major…

If one chooses to take on special education (short bus), and half of their education is tossed right of the window, or even becoming a dropout, then these are some of the option that they may have available without higher education: bus driver, janitor, dish washer and pushing a lawn mower ect…

The career options that I mention above does not need higher education, so they can very much throw away what they have learned in the past… It takes years to become a doctor, I know this because my wife and daughter are doctors, and I’ve seen their perseverance and patience while going for their degrees…

Why cant we as martial artiest put in the same perseverance and patience, and put in the years to truly hone in on are skills, rather then throwing away what we don’t understand, then right after that becoming a so-called legitimate analyzes of any system…

Just as a doctor putting in the 10 plus years of legitimate quality education, reading and physically exploring every word and texts of their studies…

By being a practitioner of any martial art, would you want to have the skills of a doctor or one that pushes a lawn mower?

If you can’t work or use something that you don’t understand, how would you know it’s useless?



Ali Rahim.

[T.D.O]

still..... wing chun is simple use what you need, energy is a good example only use it when you need it

and if step punch does the trick.... why not?:confused:


ip man set out to make wing chun more simple, hence the diffrence with hk wing chun and foshan wing chun even tho it was him that taught both

[Ali. R]

This is like fixing a car with a hammer.


still..... wing chun is simple use what you need, energy is a good example only use it when you need it and if step punch does the trick.... why not?:confused:

“The Short Bus”


ip man set out to make wing chun more simple, hence the diffrence with hk wing chun and foshan wing chun even tho it was him that taught both

Yip Man did not make the system of wing chun simple, it was design in the form of simplicity way before yip started himself…

Everything I have said has nothing to do with complications, only with the practicality dealing with the true scholar’s approach, and if one chooses not to be a scholar then how can one say what works or not…

Why was the forms never changed… If Yip Man sought out to make the system simpler, why keep things in the form that will never be used, which is a waste of time and counterproductive…


Ali Rahim.

[KPM]

Why was the forms never changed… If Yip Man sought out to make the system simpler, why keep things in the form that will never be used, which is a waste of time and counterproductive…


Ali Rahim.

--What makes you think that Yip Man never changed the forms?

[Ali. R]

--What makes you think that Yip Man never changed the forms?


And if that were the case, Yip Man changing the forms to simplify the system, then why would one consider taking or changing or even throwing away parts of the system in which one do no fully understand? If the system is already so-called simplify by Yip Man himself, then why continue taking away from the art itself, wouldn’t that also be counterproductive? :)


Ali Rahim.

[Liddel]

And if that were the case, Yip Man changing the forms to simplify the system, then why would one consider taking or changing or even throwing away parts of the system in which one do no fully understand?
Ali Rahim.

Im not even getting started on speculating about what GM IP did or didnt do thats for mugs...

But Ali, people do it every day so yuor argument is moot.

Doctors laywers hell garbage men...specialise.....

Doctors dont need to know everything about brain surgery if they are just a GP.
Laywers need not know the laws around copyright if they are divorce specialists.
Garbge men need not be concerned with inorganic rubbish if they are paper recyclers.....

I got a degree from a Film School and learnt about every job on the set, then i specialised in Directing and Producing, most of the other stuff wasnt needed at that point...

Do you remember calc / stats from school... do you ever use SIN COS and TAN on your calculator...ever ?

In the same vein what VT i find works and suits me is totally differnt than what might work for you. We are differnt body types mentallity strenghts etc.

Your conversation is cracking me up.... merry freakin xmas LOL :cool:

DREW

[Ali. R]

Im not even getting started on speculating about what GM IP did or didnt do thats for mugs...

But Ali, people do it every day so yuor argument is moot.

Doctors laywers hell garbage men...specialise.....

Doctors dont need to know everything about brain surgery if they are just a GP.
Laywers need not know the laws around copyright if they are divorce specialists.
Garbge men need not be concerned with inorganic rubbish if they are paper recyclers.....

I got a degree from a Film School and learnt about every job on the set, then i specialised in Directing and Producing, most of the other stuff wasnt needed at that point...

Do you remember calc / stats from school... do you ever use SIN COS and TAN on your calculator...ever ?

In the same vein what VT i find works and suits me is totally differnt than what might work for you. We are differnt body types mentallity strenghts etc.

Your conversation is cracking me up.... merry freakin xmas LOL :cool:

DREW


There is no premise in your entire post that could diminish my statements, so just keep cracking yourself up…

Take care,


Ali Rahim.

[Ultimatewingchun]

An entire page on this thread devoted to.....what? :confused:

Have no idea what these guys are arguing about...

But yet get the distinct feeling that's it's not even worth finding out. :rolleyes:

[KPM]

Ali wrote:
And if that were the case, Yip Man changing the forms to simplify the system, then why would one consider taking or changing or even throwing away parts of the system in which one do no fully understand?

---I've heard from more than one source that Yip Man rejected a lot of the "flowery" terminology in preference for more straight-forward terminology. Its also been said that he reorganized both the wooden dummy and the knife forms to suit himself, and that during his teaching career different students learned different versions of these forms. Understandings and expressions evolve with time. WCK is, and should be a living thing. Why would we expect to be doing the exact same thing that any of the Si Jo did years and years ago?

If the system is already so-called simplify by Yip Man himself, then why continue taking away from the art itself, wouldn’t that also be counterproductive? :)

---The art is not contained in the specifics of the forms. The art is contained in the concepts and tactics behind them. Concepts and tactics can be expressed in various ways.

[T.D.O]

this seems to be bothering him...... and he thought it would borther me LOL


i liked wing chun for it's simpleness...... infact when we asked sigung kwok, why wing chun he said the same thing...... it's simple!

i'm sure i read some where that the only thing ip man really regreted was not making it simpler..... though that might of been one of ip mans sifu's.... i forget:o

oh and the 3rd section of SLT was supposedly changed by wong sheun leung, after a few roof top fight's

it's funny that you have never asked what the conversion he used that sentance in was about..... rather you simply attacked LOL


and all the way he was off topic:p

**** it i'm bored now....

[T.D.O]

But yet get the distinct feeling that's it's not even worth finding out. :rolleyes:


not at all.... :D

[T.D.O]

lol not allowed to swear lol

whats that about

[Graychuan]

An entire page on this thread devoted to.....what? :confused:

Have no idea what these guys are arguing about...

But yet get the distinct feeling that's it's not even worth finding out. :rolleyes:

It seems pretty obvious to me that Ali is arguing a valid counterpoint. How can you add to or take away from something when you don't have a complete understanding of it then deem it 'better', more 'functional' or whatever? Also how is it making things better when there is no complete understanding of whats being added in the first place?

~Cg~

[Liddel]

It seems pretty obvious to me that Ali is arguing a valid counterpoint. How can you add to or take away from something when you don't have a complete understanding of it then deem it 'better', more 'functional' or whatever? Also how is it making things better when there is no complete understanding of whats being added in the first place?
~Cg~

Its all speculation conjecture and heresay...its a paper bag argument.

One can add or take away based on your own POV and what you think works for you. WSL changed his SLT sure. Others didnt.

So what.....

[Ali. R]

Sounds like one is running to the “short bus” with helmet and cowboy boots on…

When something is truly logical one’s only out is to say, “I don’t understand”…

Like I said, “the short bus” or special education by choice… :D


Ali Rahim.

[Paul T England]

The Gracie / Kwok seminar was years ago, where have you all been?...A couple of my guys went and enjoyed it for waht it was. Demos are demos and seminars are seminars.

Go and Chi Sau with Sam and see what you think...for all his positives and negatives, he has promoted wing chun in the uk and is a handful in chi sau / fighting. His experience diserves some respect even if it might be different from your own in IMHO. Like everyone in wing chun they do what works for them unless someone proves different.

Back on a positive note, regarding striking clinch etc. I keep a wing chun mindset even in clinch range. Why go round a persons head when you can hit on the way?

Merry Christmas
Paul

[Mr Punch]

Don't get me wrong: I started in Sam's line and I like a lot of his stuff. But I don't understand this concept:
Demos are demos...Why would you want to demo something you don't use or that's substandard? This isn't just levelled at Sam but anybody who does that kind of **** where somebody leaps in from a short bus-ride's distance, punches once, stands there with his arm out and falls over twitching on the ground at the first sight if a ****ing chain punch of all things!
and seminars are seminars...And what does this mean? Seminars should be somewhere where everyone can take something fundamental away that they've overlooked or never thought of, that they can use o improve their fighting skill... no?


Back on a positive note, regarding striking clinch etc. I keep a wing chun mindset even in clinch range. Why go round a persons head when you can hit on the way?No offence, as I don't know you, but this sounds like someone who's never hit anyone 'full force' and NOT floored them! Of course you punch them, but the key is in your phrase: on the way in. A lot of punches, surprise surprise, don't deck the opponent, and if you're then going to say 'Hit him again' after the first one strangely a lot of people have a tendency to cover up, move or counter punch...! So if you don't deck him you want the fluidity to hook round the back of his head and fut him, with nice centreline elbow control of his whole body, into your elbow, no? Clinches are definitely a part of wing chun... or maybe the first part of your dummy is different to mine...


Merry Christmas
PaulYou too, sir!

[Paul T England]

Mr Punch,

I agree with you that seminars should be more than they are but I have been to many from Wing Chun to thai etc and I suspect that if I was an expert in thai I would think little of what was shown in the thai seminar. But I totally agree that its very irritating when things are set up and the basics are still flawed.

Just trying to get some postive conversation going with the whole clinch subject. I totally agree with what you say but I see many people practicing grappling and clinch with their wing chun and once the range closes they forget about punching and go to grappling. Obviosuly control and positoning is of prime importance but I think many miss valauble opportunities to strike. You can see this even in the UFC although many of the fighters are starting to take advantage of clinch and ground positions to apply more elbows, knees and strikes.

All the best
Paul

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Just trying to get some postive conversation going with the whole clinch subject. I totally agree with what you say but I see many people practicing grappling and clinch with their wing chun and once the range closes they forget about punching and go to grappling. Obviously control and positoning is of prime importance but I think many people miss valuable opportunities to strike. You can see this even in the UFC although many of the fighters are starting to take advantage of clinch and ground positions to apply more elbows, knees and strikes." (Paul)


***The point you bring up is a real major one, imo. Knowing when to strike and when to clinch/grapple...this is KEY. But it's something that has to be worked with again-and-again.

One of the ways I handle this in my school is when I do chi sao with certain of my guys I occasionally tell them to try to grab me, clinch, tie up, shoot for my legs - and do it out of nowhere (but trying to somehow set it up) so that I don't expect it.

And sometimes I do a kind of 3 round drill set of my own. The first round of chi sao I'm emphasizing controlling them with various jams, grabs, taking their space away, putting them back on their heels, unbalancing or sweeping them, trapping their arms, lop, jum, pak, lan, head control and collar tie type things, etc. - with some hitting as well.

Next round, I focus almost entirely on hitting them with much less clinch/grab/grapple stuff going on...

third round, I just do whatever makes the most sense at the moment (go for hits/kicks...go for traps...go for sweeps...clinch stuff, whatever).

And all of the above includes throwing elbow and knee strikes as well.

[YungChun]

***The point you bring up is a real major one, imo. Knowing when to strike and when to clinch/grapple...this is KEY. But it's something that has to be worked with again-and-again.

Once I started working on my own I started to work through ranges as a matter of course.. So if you are working chisao I would use the longer range tools at the start of entry and then work down to shorter range tools.. So you start entering with punches; then open hands, then elbows and/or single collar tie with more close range elbows or whatever the range dictates, even headbutts, knees.. I think working to close range is natural and keeps the opponent off balance--in catch up mode, more consistently.

Of course you can work in some more conventional clich work, but I prefer those moves that don't require you to trap your own hands/arms, although that CAN happen and so should also be trained, like training to work from other positions of disadvantage, etc.