Yi Chin Ching

[Jeffoo]

OK there's no real need for a video here for this. The old Shaolin Yi Chin Ching are quite simple. This first one is my 10 year old daughter doing the first exercise.

The official version says to look east, so ok..look east when you start.

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m39/jeffoo68/YiCHinChing1.jpg

Stand at attention with both arms slightly bent at the elbow. Fingers together and tips facing forward, they should be parallel to the ground. Palm along the side of your leg. Count from 1 to 49. On each count raise the finger tips up and press the palms down. you should not relax the hand between counts but continue to push the finger tips up and the palms down. There should be little external movement, but you should feel extreme tension in your wrist and lower forearms. Breathing throughout this should be normal.

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m39/jeffoo68/Yinchinchingcloseup.jpg

A close up of the hand position.

That's it. None of the rest of the 12 positions are a great deal harder, but try it and you will feel exactly where this works.

[Piercinghammer]

Jeffoo:

Very cool, have you ever seen these exercises done with a certain amount of body/ torso movement done with them, similar to making the chest and back work like pumping a bellows, for lack of a better description. just wondering.

Thanks
Mike Biggie

[Jeffoo]

Jeffoo:

Very cool, have you ever seen these exercises done with a certain amount of body/ torso movement done with them, similar to making the chest and back work like pumping a bellows, for lack of a better description. just wondering.

Thanks
Mike Biggie


Oh Hey Mike...I just watched your Hok Fu Gao Cha on youtube. Almost identical to the way I learned it. Very well done.

I have not seen these done this way. The way it was explained to me is these are meant to isolate the areas that you are working and any other movement reduces the effect. Of course when I learned it, my teacher's way was the only way, but as I have traveled and seen how others do it, I see that there are many differences (most small) in how it is done. To see them done, the Yi Chin Cheng are rather boring to look at...lol but when you do it you can't deny the effects...


Maybe I'll just put all 12 up here since it's pretty easy to do and to explain.

[Oso]

cool, same first position as our version

we aim for complete contraction of all the muscles in the body at the same time while exhaling all the breath through the mouth while the tongue is touching the roof of the mouth

[cjurakpt]

we aim for complete contraction of all the muscles in the body at the same time while exhaling all the breath through the mouth while the tongue is touching the roof of the mouth
why?

.......

[Shaolin Wookie]

Because that's the way I Chin CHing are done, even in SD...LOL.....

We've got 49 of the suckers, and if you do each one 10 times, by the end of all 49 you feel like you've just run a marathon.

[SouthernTiger]

cool, same first position as our version

we aim for complete contraction of all the muscles in the body at the same time while exhaling all the breath through the mouth while the tongue is touching the roof of the mouth

That is interesting... I learned that the tension was more "internal" if you will, and not just contracting muscles in the body. If you relax all the muscles during inhalation then this method is remarkedly similar to Maxalding "muscle control".

But is that how the Yi Jin Jing is supposed to be performed? Perhaps, it depends on what you want to accomplish with the practice...

Hopefully we can get more insight on this from other forum members who have studied this chigung. Maybe Dale Dugas or Steve Hamp??

-Blake

[Seppukku]

I only stiffen one muscle when I do the I Chin Ching. I'll let you guess which one. Ever wonder why it's called the Bone Muscle Classic? What did you think "Marrow-washing" was?

[Jeffoo]

why?

.......

It's common place for the tip of the tongue to be on the roof of the mouth to complete the "Grand Cycle" of chi circulation. I found this to be kind of a moot point with these particular exercises and with the Lohan Gong as well since those are all basically dynamic tension types of exercises.

But many teachers who teach Qigong do teach that ALL drills have the tongue placed this way.

[Jeffoo]

That is interesting... I learned that the tension was more "internal" if you will, and not just contracting muscles in the body. If you relax all the muscles during inhalation then this method is remarkedly similar to Maxalding "muscle control".

But is that how the Yi Jin Jing is supposed to be performed? Perhaps, it depends on what you want to accomplish with the practice...

Hopefully we can get more insight on this from other forum members who have studied this chigung. Maybe Dale Dugas or Steve Hamp??

-Blake

The muscle tension is internal and the muscles and tendons being worked are not relaxed a bit during these exercises.

There are 12 postures, each held for a 49 count. Each posture works different muscles. At the end you are indeed tired.

I have found that each teacher teaches these very differently, so I ultimately go back to the original Shaolin Authentic to review each posture and method.

[Shaolin Wookie]

what is the Original Shaolin Authentic?:confused:

[cjurakpt]

Because that's the way I Chin CHing are done, even in SD...LOL.....
I take it you are being sarcastic, but that's actually about the most in depth answer most people will be able to offer, unfortunately...


I learned that the tension was more "internal" if you will, and not just contracting muscles in the body.
man, that poor musculoskeletal system just takes a beating from "internalists", like it's somehow an "inferior" way of doing things; sorry, that's total BS; ok, WHY is contracting muscles not being "internal"? I mean, I don't care what you are doing, if you are moving, you're contracting muscles - there is no other way to move, sorry, unless you are falling down; so then, maybe it has to do with the QUALITY of the muscle contractions and the way that they coordinate through the body, how about that?


If you relax all the muscles during inhalation then this method is remarkedly similar to Maxalding "muscle control".
impossible - if you are inhaling, there is this big old muscle called the respiratory diaphragm that is contracting, along with a number of intercostals, the abdominals (kind of important if you want to get a deep breath), the pelvic floor, and if you are standing, all the postural stabilizers from the foot up, unless you want to fall down on your face or asz, because when you inhale you change your center of gravity...


But is that how the Yi Jin Jing is supposed to be performed? Perhaps, it depends on what you want to accomplish with the practice...
ok, that's a very salient comment - what exactly is one attempting to accomplish with this practice? seriously, what?


Hopefully we can get more insight on this from other forum members who have studied this chigung. Maybe Dale Dugas or Steve Hamp??
that would be nice


It's common place for the tip of the tongue to be on the roof of the mouth to complete the "Grand Cycle" of chi circulation. I found this to be kind of a moot point with these particular exercises and with the Lohan Gong as well since those are all basically dynamic tension types of exercises.
But many teachers who teach Qigong do teach that ALL drills have the tongue placed this way.
ok, but again, why? and "completing the Grand Circulation" doesn't count - that's just a metaphorical descriptor, it doesn't tell you what's going on anatomically / physiologically / biomechanically when you do that...



The muscle tension is internal and the muscles and tendons being worked are not relaxed a bit during these exercises.
tendons are non-contractile; they cannot "be worked" or "relaxed" intrinsically - they can only be placed under tension by the action of the muscle fibers;


I have found that each teacher teaches these very differently, so I ultimately go back to the original Shaolin Authentic to review each posture and method.
which is basically "Sino-sized" yoga...

what I'm trying to point out is that there are many very interesting ideas about what is going on in the body when you are doing something like YGG, and the problem is that MOST people do it the way they do it because they were taught to do it that way; problem is, they don't really understanding a) why they are doing it; b) what is actually happening in the body by doing it the way they are doing it; c) how to monitor and self-regulate and CHANGE how they are doing it according to a given circumstance...

[Shaolin Wookie]

It is, basically, Sino-sized Yoga. You take postures, some static, some moving, all of them encompassing some kind of motion. On a purely athletic level, the harder positions test your balance and help strengthen muscle groups that don't regularly get a lot of exercise (it's done wonders for my lower back, which has always been a problem for me). Some of them help flexibility. Others, you just focus on your breathing. It's funny, though, because it's "static", one would think that they're easy. But regularity of motion, deep breathing, focusing on the tension--it's all a kind of internal motion, if you want to call it that (and I usually don't, b/c I figure all arts are internal/external nowadays, and it's pretty d@mn difficult to divorce one from the other without making the art useless). It's almost like meditation, only "hardcore".....EXTREME! Lol....

[SouthernTiger]

I take it you are being sarcastic, but that's actually about the most in depth answer most people will be able to offer, unfortunately...


man, that poor musculoskeletal system just takes a beating from "internalists", like it's somehow an "inferior" way of doing things; sorry, that's total BS; ok, WHY is contracting muscles not being "internal"? I mean, I don't care what you are doing, if you are moving, you're contracting muscles - there is no other way to move, sorry, unless you are falling down; so then, maybe it has to do with the QUALITY of the muscle contractions and the way that they coordinate through the body, how about that?


impossible - if you are inhaling, there is this big old muscle called the respiratory diaphragm that is contracting, along with a number of intercostals, the abdominals (kind of important if you want to get a deep breath), the pelvic floor, and if you are standing, all the postural stabilizers from the foot up, unless you want to fall down on your face or asz, because when you inhale you change your center of gravity...


ok, that's a very salient comment - what exactly is one attempting to accomplish with this practice? seriously, what?


that would be nice


ok, but again, why? and "completing the Grand Circulation" doesn't count - that's just a metaphorical descriptor, it doesn't tell you what's going on anatomically / physiologically / biomechanically when you do that...



tendons are non-contractile; they cannot "be worked" or "relaxed" intrinsically - they can only be placed under tension by the action of the muscle fibers;


which is basically "Sino-sized" yoga...

what I'm trying to point out is that there are many very interesting ideas about what is going on in the body when you are doing something like YGG, and the problem is that MOST people do it the way they do it because they were taught to do it that way; problem is, they don't really understanding a) why they are doing it; b) what is actually happening in the body by doing it the way they are doing it; c) how to monitor and self-regulate and CHANGE how they are doing it according to a given circumstance...

Thank you so much for your amazingly insightful (and narrow-minded) comments. You have trully shown me the superiority of your intellect and how "the poor little chinese folk dont know science" as I imagine you might say.

I can see that you have generously shared your viewpoints on TCM and other eastern paradigms on other threads so there is prob no need for you to post any more in this thread. No doubt, it would contribute little to the conversation.

That being said, allow me to clarify what I was getting at in my earlier post. What makes the Yi Jin Jing different than any other isometric exercise? Or is it just another isometric exercise? It does not qualify as a dynamic tension set because there is very little to no movement.

Jeffoo - do you perform your YJJ with muscular tension allover your body or just in the forearms and hands?

So, what makes the YJJ so special? I look forward to more comments (with the exception of cjurakpt) on this great exercise set.

-Blake

[EarthDragon]

answer to the question about the placement of the tongue is, it connects the conception vessel.
In the mouth thier is a seperation of this flow a break in the circulation if you will when placing the tongue on the roof of the mouth it bridges this seperation thus completing the flow unbroken.

[Jeffoo]

what is the Original Shaolin Authentic?:confused:

This was a series of books written around 1920 by Fan Xu Dong (who was Wong Hun Fun's teacher). My teacher was Wong Hun Fun's first student and best man at his wedding. Fan was an artist of some note and copied many of the training and fighting methods directly off the Shaolin murals. The Lohan Gong, Yi Chin Ching and other methods were included in the book. Later in 1930, Ji Yin Ming and Guo Cui Ya did a similar book called Lian Gong Mi Jue (Secret Methods of Acquiring Internal and External Mastery).

Both books were designed to bring Shaolin training methods to the masses. Wong Hun Fun took Fan Xu Dong's book one step further and introduced photographs to accompany the old line art and calligraphy. At the time photos were the state of the art in information technology. Some of the training techniques were excellent and valid still today such as Yi Chin Ching, some of the finger exercises (like pulling the nails out of wood, etc.). Some are more fanciful in nature and include such things as holding a baby calf and jumping over a seedling bush. As the bush and calf grow...you get stronger so you can hold a 1000 Jin (roughly 1lb per Jin) bull while jumping over a 10 foot bush....yeah right. So there's some very good stuff in the books and some other stuff..all authentic from Shaolin. Very interesting reads.

[Jeffoo]

Yep true Chris the tendons can't be strengthened. You have what you have and can't work them. Basically what I've found is these exercises work the smaller muscles that provide support to the tendons and joints...at least that's what it feels like when I practice...

The Grand Cycle of breathing with the tongue out isn't a theory I prescribe to, but virtually every teacher of breathing teaches it. From a scientific standpoint though it makes no real sense. Even from a chi developing standpoint it doesn't either.

But yes it's just the way everyone was taught.

[Jeffoo]

Thank you so much for your amazingly insightful (and narrow-minded) comments. You have trully shown me the superiority of your intellect and how "the poor little chinese folk dont know science" as I imagine you might say.

I can see that you have generously shared your viewpoints on TCM and other eastern paradigms on other threads so there is prob no need for you to post any more in this thread. No doubt, it would contribute little to the conversation.

That being said, allow me to clarify what I was getting at in my earlier post. What makes the Yi Jin Jing different than any other isometric exercise? Or is it just another isometric exercise? It does not qualify as a dynamic tension set because there is very little to no movement.

Jeffoo - do you perform your YJJ with muscular tension allover your body or just in the forearms and hands?

So, what makes the YJJ so special? I look forward to more comments (with the exception of cjurakpt) on this great exercise set.

-Blake

We perform the YJJ with the rest of the body at ease...not relaxed per se, just normal. And the tension varies with each exercise. In #1 as I posted it, you feel it most on the back of the hands at the wrist and along the inside of the forearm. #2 which I may post, you feel it along the outermost and innermost parts of your forearms.

But as is so common in all traditional kung fu, it varies from teacher to teacher as to how it's taught.

[Jeffoo]

answer to the question about the placement of the tongue is, it connects the conception vessel.
In the mouth thier is a seperation of this flow a break in the circulation if you will when placing the tongue on the roof of the mouth it bridges this seperation thus completing the flow unbroken.

Right I know that's the theory, but in actuality this is one part that never made much sense. Proper chi breathing is supposed to circulate chi throughout the whole body. So then the chi automatically fills up the body anyway. If Chi is a vital force like say blood circulation, this makes no sense because there is no way to physically connect the pathways for it using this method. Kind of like pumping gas with the gas cap still on. If Chi is a vital force and is more like an energy, this makes no sense either because then there's just the mass of energy circulating. Energy like that can't be confined to any defined pathway.

I am not being critical of anyone or they way they were taught, I just wonder what, if any, scientific info may be out there to back this up.

[cjurakpt]

answer to the question about the placement of the tongue is, it connects the conception vessel.
In the mouth thier is a seperation of this flow a break in the circulation if you will when placing the tongue on the roof of the mouth it bridges this seperation thus completing the flow unbroken.

that's still metaphorical; what's happening anatomically? (hint: it changes the way the cranium sits on the top of the spine...that should be right up your alley ED!)

[cjurakpt]

Yep true Chris the tendons can't be strengthened. You have what you have and can't work them. Basically what I've found is these exercises work the smaller muscles that provide support to the tendons and joints...at least that's what it feels like when I practice...
actually tendons can be "strengthened", but you don't do it by lifting - you can work them plyometricly, which increases their ability to recoil and "releash" stored up energy

as to the smaller muscles that provide support to tendons and joints - which muscles specifically (or in what area at least? do you mean in the hand / wrist or elsewhere?)?


The Grand Cycle of breathing with the tongue out isn't a theory I prescribe to, but virtually every teacher of breathing teaches it. From a scientific standpoint though it makes no real sense. Even from a chi developing standpoint it doesn't either.
I never said it didn't make sense; actually, it makes a great deal of sense; the question is, why? ;) (hint: go try it, see what happens to your masseter muscles...and also the cranium in general, as I mentioned above)


But yes it's just the way everyone was taught.
that's part of the "problem"...

[cjurakpt]

Thank you so much for your amazingly insightful
you are too kind :)


(and narrow-minded) comments.
wait a minute - that wasn't a compliment! oh, I get it - you were being sarcastic!! sorry, I missed that at first :rolleyes:;
look, it's obvious you disagree with what I say - fine, that's cool - but why do you feel the need to personalize this, instead of addressing the points on their own merits? I can't help if you perceive my comments as being condescending, but that's your issue, not mine; you can either stew in it or get over it, that's up to you;
so, to start with, could you please explain which comments of mine specifically are narrow minded?


You have trully shown me the superiority of your intellect
are you "laughing at my superior intellect"? ;) anyway, instead of being sarcastic, why don't you address specifically the things I say that you disagree with?


and how "the poor little chinese folk dont know science" as I imagine you might say.
where did I imply anywhere that Chinese "don't know science?"; please demonstrate this;


I can see that you have generously shared your viewpoints on TCM
no, nothing generous about it, my pleasure; oh wait - that was sarcasm again! sorry, I'm a bit slow...


and other eastern paradigms on other threads so there is prob no need for you to post any more in this thread. No doubt, it would contribute little to the conversation.
no; did he? did he just revoke my posting right? dissed and dismissed oh say it ain't so! I feel so unwelcome now...
if you don't like what I write, a) don't participate; b) put me on ignore; c) a & b; or, try to address specifically the points I make with which you take issue; telling me not to post here again is pretty lame...


That being said, allow me to clarify what I was getting at in my earlier post. What makes the Yi Jin Jing different than any other isometric exercise? Or is it just another isometric exercise? It does not qualify as a dynamic tension set because there is very little to no movement.
see, now that is a good point (funny, you also seemed to miss above where I said that about your other observation...); first off, i agree with you, that it has nothing to do with "dynamic tension" - that's not the "point" of YGG at all;

[QUOTE=SouthernTiger;829155]So, what makes the YJJ so special? I look forward to more comments (with the exception of cjurakpt) on this great exercise set.
I fail to understand why, exactly, you think I am "anti-YGG"? is it because I refuse to simply accept that things like qigong can only be adequately described by TCM / Taoist Inner Alchemical Practice concepts and terminology? are you one of the brainwashed "purists?" you've obviously gone to the trouble to read other things I've posted, yet it seems that you've completely missed the point of my polemic; it's not that I think things like TCM or qigong don't work: they do - but what I want to know is, why? and as such, what I will not accept is that the mechanisms can't all be described / explained by a more contemporary anatomical / physiolgcal / biomechanical paradigm; I think what the knee-jerk reaction is that, by doing so, it somehow devalues them, makes them less "mystical"; quite the contrary - this doesn't weaken them, in fact, it strengthens them, because it "proves" that they are universal, plain and simple; and the value of doing this is also simple: it makes it more accessible to people who don't know the TCM terms and also who may have trouble conceptualizing YGG from that perspective

so, here's my unsolicited opinion as to just one of the many reasons why YGG is "special" - it's about the fact that we ware not originally designed to stand on two feet, but rather on all fours, and that while we have adapted over time to being vertical, there are still some "problems" with that; for example, if you look at the spine and the organs, when in quadriped, they hang down, with no pressure from the ones above; when you stand though, they get stacked, and what this creates is a few things: one is prolapse of the pelvic organs which leads to them sitting on the pelvic floor; when that happens, you loose some of the capacity of one of the main "pumps" to assist in venous and lymphatic return; so one of the things that YGG does (and by that i mean what i being described here - in our system, again, we call this set Dai Lihk Gung, and it is actually the second of three main "exercises" that work sequentially to do what I am describing) is to stimulate the system to enhance lymphatic drainage, by "simulating" what it's like to walk on your hands - think about the motion Jeff described, it's like what would happen if you did that; and that's why you "contract" your muscles, because if you were walking on your hands, you would be getting muscle contractions as you put pressure on the weightbearing limb, which is what works to stimulate venous / lymphatic return; also, when you do this, it refocuses the breathing to be more diaphragmatic, as opposed to using the accessory muscles of respitration (sternocleidomastoid, scalenes) which has a global effect of decreasing sympathetic tone, and getting you out of chronic, low grade "flight/fight" response, which has the effect of decreasing systemic inflammation, meaning you will have less of those histokinenes and whatnot floating around the system needing to be cleared out to begin with; oh yeah, the opening posture / move especially, is designed to harmonize pelvic floor tone and to work in conjunction with the respiratory diaphragm, in order to help "pump" the abdominal cavity and clear stagnation / congestion from those stacked up guts...

so again, to be clear - I think that YGG has great value, and that it is, overall, a means to enhance the body's ability to regain / retain homeostasis through a variety of mechanisms and systems, none of which require TCM / Taoist terminology to adequately and fully explain the rationale and benefits; that's all;

[cjurakpt]

Jeffoo:

Very cool, have you ever seen these exercises done with a certain amount of body/ torso movement done with them, similar to making the chest and back work like pumping a bellows, for lack of a better description. just wondering.

are you talking about Turtle Breathing?

[diego]

Yep true Chris the tendons can't be strengthened. You have what you have and can't work them. Basically what I've found is these exercises work the smaller muscles that provide support to the tendons and joints...at least that's what it feels like when I practice...

The Grand Cycle of breathing with the tongue out isn't a theory I prescribe to, but virtually every teacher of breathing teaches it. From a scientific standpoint though it makes no real sense. Even from a chi developing standpoint it doesn't either.

But yes it's just the way everyone was taught.
i'm guessing the tongue on the mouth mainly is so you don't breathe in dust when doing breathing cycles...go work construction without a mask, you will keep your mouth as closed as possible...also i'm guessing they did it so spit would build up and you get more nutrients than keeping the mouth wide open letting the mouth dry...maybe there is a meditation placebo focusing on tongue on pallette hands all funky with tight stance...makes the practitioner feel ninja through visualisation...or maybe if you train hard and keep the mouth closed you start to be more animal like as you chill out and get primal through deep meditation...or maybe dude that wrote that term liked opium and the top of his mouth always itched so he'd tongue it to relax....kinda through that last one out but i look at some tai chi moves and i think OPIUM fuelled that slowness


had a buddy hooked on dope and saw him sitting on his chair swaying all taichi negative like even though he thought he was blissed....crack heads get that hard core famished tiger twitch...potheads move like turtles...animal style ideas trip me out...my hop gar punches make me go GORILLA:D

[diego]

you are too kind :)


wait a minute - that wasn't a compliment! oh, I get it - you were being sarcastic!! sorry, I missed that at first :rolleyes:;
look, it's obvious you disagree with what I say - fine, that's cool - but why do you feel the need to personalize this, instead of addressing the points on their own merits? I can't help if you perceive my comments as being condescending, but that's your issue, not mine; you can either stew in it or get over it, that's up to you;
so, to start with, could you please explain which comments of mine specifically are narrow minded?


are you "laughing at my superior intellect"? ;) anyway, instead of being sarcastic, why don't you address specifically the things I say that you disagree with?


where did I imply anywhere that Chinese "don't know science?"; please demonstrate this;


no, nothing generous about it, my pleasure; oh wait - that was sarcasm again! sorry, I'm a bit slow...


no; did he? did he just revoke my posting right? dissed and dismissed oh say it ain't so! I feel so unwelcome now...
if you don't like what I write, a) don't participate; b) put me on ignore; c) a & b; or, try to address specifically the points I make with which you take issue; telling me not to post here again is pretty lame...


see, now that is a good point (funny, you also seemed to miss above where I said that about your other observation...); first off, i agree with you, that it has nothing to do with "dynamic tension" - that's not the "point" of YGG at all;

[QUOTE=SouthernTiger;829155]So, what makes the YJJ so special? I look forward to more comments (with the exception of cjurakpt) on this great exercise set.
I fail to understand why, exactly, you think I am "anti-YGG"? is it because I refuse to simply accept that things like qigong can only be adequately described by TCM / Taoist Inner Alchemical Practice concepts and terminology? are you one of the brainwashed "purists?" you've obviously gone to the trouble to read other things I've posted, yet it seems that you've completely missed the point of my polemic; it's not that I think things like TCM or qigong don't work: they do - but what I want to know is, why? and as such, what I will not accept is that the mechanisms can't all be described / explained by a more contemporary anatomical / physiolgcal / biomechanical paradigm; I think what the knee-jerk reaction is that, by doing so, it somehow devalues them, makes them less "mystical"; quite the contrary - this doesn't weaken them, in fact, it strengthens them, because it "proves" that they are universal, plain and simple; and the value of doing this is also simple: it makes it more accessible to people who don't know the TCM terms and also who may have trouble conceptualizing YGG from that perspective

so, here's my unsolicited opinion as to just one of the many reasons why YGG is "special" - it's about the fact that we ware not originally designed to stand on two feet, but rather on all fours, and that while we have adapted over time to being vertical, there are still some "problems" with that; for example, if you look at the spine and the organs, when in quadriped, they hang down, with no pressure from the ones above; when you stand though, they get stacked, and what this creates is a few things: one is prolapse of the pelvic organs which leads to them sitting on the pelvic floor; when that happens, you loose some of the capacity of one of the main "pumps" to assist in venous and lymphatic return; so one of the things that YGG does (and by that i mean what i being described here - in our system, again, we call this set Dai Lihk Gung, and it is actually the second of three main "exercises" that work sequentially to do what I am describing) is to stimulate the system to enhance lymphatic drainage, by "simulating" what it's like to walk on your hands - think about the motion Jeff described, it's like what would happen if you did that; and that's why you "contract" your muscles, because if you were walking on your hands, you would be getting muscle contractions as you put pressure on the weightbearing limb, which is what works to stimulate venous / lymphatic return; also, when you do this, it refocuses the breathing to be more diaphragmatic, as opposed to using the accessory muscles of respitration (sternocleidomastoid, scalenes) which has a global effect of decreasing sympathetic tone, and getting you out of chronic, low grade "flight/fight" response, which has the effect of decreasing systemic inflammation, meaning you will have less of those histokinenes and whatnot floating around the system needing to be cleared out to begin with; oh yeah, the opening posture / move especially, is designed to harmonize pelvic floor tone and to work in conjunction with the respiratory diaphragm, in order to help "pump" the abdominal cavity and clear stagnation / congestion from those stacked up guts...

so again, to be clear - I think that YGG has great value, and that it is, overall, a means to enhance the body's ability to regain / retain homeostasis through a variety of mechanisms and systems, none of which require TCM / Taoist terminology to adequately and fully explain the rationale and benefits; that's all;

"or maybe if you train hard and keep the mouth closed you start to be more animal like as you chill out and get primal through deep meditation."

Hey you said what i said...just not as smart;)...nah, in Park Bok Nam's Bagua books he talks about tai chi and **** isn't giving you a special hidden energy onsome dragonball z episodes type ****...it's just showing you how to move more natural....primal:)

[cjurakpt]

"or maybe if you train hard and keep the mouth closed you start to be more animal like as you chill out and get primal through deep meditation."

Hey you said what i said...just not as smart;)...nah, in Park Bok Nam's Bagua books he talks about tai chi and **** isn't giving you a special hidden energy onsome dragonball z episodes type ****...it's just showing you how to move more natural....primal:)

ok, well actually, I agree with this in a somewhat oblique way;

the key point is, how do you stimulate the organism to behave more "naturally"; there was a book published a few years ago called "Zebras Don't Get Ulcers" or something cute like that; the point is, that for whatever reason, I would guess probably due to our ability to abstract, and to construct the notion of "psychological time", according to Krishnamurti, we can creae a situation where the body lives in a perpetual state of sympathetic "on", meaning that our fight/flight response can be just going and going and going...unlike a zebra (or other animal), who reacts to danger only when they sense it immediately, we can live in a constant state of anticipation about when the next thing is going to go wrong (or even make it up when there isn't one); this is nothing new - the I Jing in fact has a "formula" for predicting how societies develop, and they knew full well the various ills that one can exxperience as a "civilized" human; thus, a lot of Daoist practice talks about being "natural" (Buddhism does as well, but the focus is a bit different); as such, a lot of the Sino-sized yoga that came in was "seasoned" with Daoist concepts about being more primal - so for example, you have certain qigong exercises / postures like Fierce Tiger Exits Cave, where you do this deep abdominal belly growl - it's basically old-style "primal scream" therapy to me - doing this has both a psychological and physical effect, the end result is to de-tonify the sympathetics (I won't go into a long-winded description of the physiolo. of this unless someone really wants me to)
YGG / DLG is not exactly of this nature, but to me, another of its advantages is that it's sort of a "brain builder" - thinking about it, most of the activity goes on in the hands / fingers (in our case, you are actually opening and closing the fingers completely on #2 to #12) - the largest neural representation on the brain is the hand; so this stimulates a larger brain area than any other type of movement of specific areas (the other large area is the oral zone - so Six healing SOunds also has a similar effect);

[Shaolin Wookie]

This was a series of books written around 1920 by Fan Xu Dong (who was Wong Hun Fun's teacher). My teacher was Wong Hun Fun's first student and best man at his wedding. Fan was an artist of some note and copied many of the training and fighting methods directly off the Shaolin murals. The Lohan Gong, Yi Chin Ching and other methods were included in the book. Later in 1930, Ji Yin Ming and Guo Cui Ya did a similar book called Lian Gong Mi Jue (Secret Methods of Acquiring Internal and External Mastery).

Both books were designed to bring Shaolin training methods to the masses. Wong Hun Fun took Fan Xu Dong's book one step further and introduced photographs to accompany the old line art and calligraphy. At the time photos were the state of the art in information technology. Some of the training techniques were excellent and valid still today such as Yi Chin Ching, some of the finger exercises (like pulling the nails out of wood, etc.). Some are more fanciful in nature and include such things as holding a baby calf and jumping over a seedling bush. As the bush and calf grow...you get stronger so you can hold a 1000 Jin (roughly 1lb per Jin) bull while jumping over a 10 foot bush....yeah right. So there's some very good stuff in the books and some other stuff..all authentic from Shaolin. Very interesting reads.


LOL...I read the calf story in a Dr. Yang book somewhere. It's a funny story, nonetheless.:D

[Shaolin Wookie]

actually tendons can be "strengthened", but you don't do it by lifting - you can work them plyometricly, which increases their ability to recoil and "releash" stored up energy

as to the smaller muscles that provide support to tendons and joints - which muscles specifically (or in what area at least? do you mean in the hand / wrist or elsewhere?)?


I never said it didn't make sense; actually, it makes a great deal of sense; the question is, why? ;) (hint: go try it, see what happens to your masseter muscles...and also the cranium in general, as I mentioned above)


that's part of the "problem"...

Well, we tend to agree on these things, but there are certain things lifting cannot do. For instance, we teach a form of meditation (Ho Tien Chi) where you rest your head (not neck) on a bench, and the heels of your feet on another bench, with nothing in between. You then arch your back up and hold the position and breathe deeply. It's hard to keep regular, relaxed breathing in this position, but it does wonders for your body alignment, and has great side-effects (makes it easier to do handstands/headstands as well [not that they're that important, but they're great for flexibility/balance/strength training, too, and we have an upside-down meditation position as well])--stuff lifting doesn't necessarily help. If nothing more, it gets you breathing in strenuous, unnatural positions, which is a good thing to be able to do.

[cjurakpt]

Well, we tend to agree on these things, but there are certain things lifting cannot do.
of course, because if you are trying to train postural stabilizers in a functional manner, lifting is not really going to do that much for you

For instance, we teach a form of meditation (Ho Tien Chi) where you rest your head (not neck) on a bench, and the heels of your feet on another bench, with nothing in between. You then arch your back up and hold the position and breathe deeply. It's hard to keep regular, relaxed breathing in this position, but it does wonders for your body alignment, and has great side-effects (makes it easier to do handstands/headstands as well [not that they're that important, but they're great for flexibility/balance/strength training, too, and we have an upside-down meditation position as well])--stuff lifting doesn't necessarily help. If nothing more, it gets you breathing in strenuous, unnatural positions, which is a good thing to be able to do.
when you arch your back, are you increasing extension in the lumbar spine or in the hips? there is a big difference (e.g. - using spinal extensors, which reinforces postural dysfunction, versus using gluteals to extend the hips which tends to decease it), so before I get a mental image of what you are doing, that's what I'd be curious about;
the thing about breathing in "unnatural" positions is interesting - to me, it's like a way of "stretching" from the inside out - the analogy is that you have a plastic container with a bunch of dents - you blow into the opening to try to "undent" it - sometimes you can do it, sometimes you can't - it has to do with ho much air pressure you can generate, as well as how that pressure is resisted / directed - if you twist the body in different ways, it creates changes as to where the pressure "goes" when you breathe, hitting those dents or kinks that you otherwise may not get to other wise (to me, I think about the costal cage specifically, in terms of "popping" open stuck areas of rib cage); of course, it's not what really happens, it's a bit more complex than that, but I like the analogy

[Shaolin Wookie]

Technically, you're supposed to be "flat as a board", but you have to consciously arch your back when you start, or else you sag in the middle.

Whenever I think of BJ Penn's BJJ, I think of our I cHin Ching. He puts himself in wildly extended and oddly contorted positions, but always looks pretty calm, balanced, and collected. That's kind of the idea behind them (not groundfighting, just that calm and relaxed breathing in strained and odd positions). It's like all chi gung--it's breathing exercises, but geared to isolating tension in certain body parts--the wrists, hands, biceps, pectorals, lower back, hips, abs, etc. Personally, I prefer more active exercises like pushups, situps, etc., but doing s-loads of these doesn't prepare you for the I CHin Ching. They can be brutal.

[Oso]

Chris, my understanding is that the complete contraction of the muscles and the expansion of the lungs in the thoracic cavity places a pressure on the organs that makes them more resistant to damage from blows. I feel it is like a light version of more severe type 'iron vest' type conditioning. In our practice, we go from yi ji jing to '3 Turns and 9 Rotations' which I don't know all of yet. In 3T9R we do strike the body with the hands.

I don't even bother to comment to others about any qi building affect...it doesn't matter to anyone else what I think it might do for me. :)

Anecdotally, if my muscles are sore from the day before, YJJ will remove the majority of the soreness.

[cjurakpt]

Chris, my understanding is that the complete contraction of the muscles and the expansion of the lungs in the thoracic cavity places a pressure on the organs that makes them more resistant to damage from blows. I feel it is like a light version of more severe type 'iron vest' type conditioning. In our practice, we go from yi ji jing to '3 Turns and 9 Rotations' which I don't know all of yet. In 3T9R we do strike the body with the hands.

I don't even bother to comment to others about any qi building affect...it doesn't matter to anyone else what I think it might do for me. :)

Anecdotally, if my muscles are sore from the day before, YJJ will remove the majority of the soreness.

ok, sounds like you're on the right track (not that you need my "approval" or anything, just in terms of what I am prodding towards)

so, here's my take - a few things to consider:
when you contract the musculature and coordinate it with breathing, you can hav several effects, depending on how you do it:

one way to see it, is from a restorative perspective (parasympathetic / yin), mainly that you are activating the system like a pump; the main things you are pumping are by-products of metabolism, etc. - so things like venous blood, lymphatic fluid, and also lactic acid (hence the decreased degree of muscle soreness); you are also stimulating digestion / elimination of toxic stuff in the bowls, kidneys, liver, gall bladder, etc. - it's basically speeding up their overall metabolism as well as physically pushing / squeezing stuff out; iif you then do the body "pounding" kind of like the way a masseur would do it, then you are further stimulating the recuperative response - it relaxes the muscles, but it also breaks down stagnant "stuff" sitting in the connective tissue and helps push it out of the system; so that's one way

the other end of the spectrum is to stimulate sympathetics (stress / immune response / yang); doing it intensely (sort of like yoga "fire breath", you can get more "pumped up", largely because of the impact you are having on the sympathetic chain, which runs up and down the thoracic spine bilaterally, and is stimulated by the movement of the costovertebral joints; combined with the increase in thoracic pressure (and possible increase in BP / HR), you get a real "jolt" to the flight / fight mechanism, almost like you are stimulating an adrenaline dump; if you then go and pound on the body during that time, I think it's reasonable to consider that you are having either some sort of adaptive response to perception of pain thresholds and possible increasing the systems ability to actually withstand structural damage, although I am not sure about that, I'd have to think about it - there might be some impact on how fibroblasts orient themselves in response to a consistent force vector (the pounding) and lay down new connective tissue fibers oriented to that force - that may have the effect of enabling the system to more efficiently "disperse" the forces coming into the body, creating less trauma as they enter - but that's a bit of a conjecture, I'd have to do a little research / consulting...

incidently, when you do "reverse" breathing, it's not just the abs, but also the pedal arches (yes, the souls of the feet...go read your Chuang Tzu if you want some verification on that ;) ; they are actually very much like the other diaphragms - put the feet next to each other, what do you get? a dome...) and the pelvic floor - but you need to be very watchful with this, because if you force it, you don't get the effect you might want...it's a rhythmic interplay between them, in context of the breath and the ground reaction force - you have to really ride the wave, not force the issue, in my experience...

also, consider the differences of doing the "pounding" before and / or after the YGG - maybe try it, see what you feel (don't worry, you won't mess yourself up if you do it conscientiously with good awareness); for example in our system, we do the body pounding first (100 to 1,000x - ugh), then the YGG (but with full motion of the fingers), and then we do arm slapping to move the fluids we pumped; we follow with Closing the Iron Gate, which is a very intense breathing / movement / pumping exercise I won't even try to explain...

so do you get it? depending on how you do the exercise, you can get a different result in the system

this is my point about practicing "live" from a qigong perspective - understanding what you are doing clearly, and then trying out different variations to understand the effects - it's the antithesis of the old "do it this way because my teacher said so" schtick - but you have to do it consciously and intelligently

have fun...

[Oso]

makes sense.

I've done a number of different qigongs...a version of 8 Brocades, a version of 18 Lohan, one from ninjutsu that had a similarity to 8 Brocades, one from the infamous David Kash that he called 'ku yu cheong', and now the stuff from Kevin Brazier.

and, some of the xingyi drills and bagua's circle walking with the animal postures were very 'chifull' ;)

In those I've seen the different sides that you talk about.

The way we/I do YJJ it's very fiery...Kash's thing was very cooling...

just got done with some cardio circuit...now for some YJJ and then some form work...ya'll have a good holiday.:)

[Oso]

I've oftened wondered with so many variations, do the details really matter?

Surely, no one today is doing any of this as originally concieved or practiced by the creators of the exercises...given of course that they went through a lengthy R&D phase in the creation of said exercises and didn't offer them for public use until quantifiable effects were realized ;)

given that 'chi' is as yet unmeasurable in real scientific terms...are we not all just playing a bit of witch doctory?

[diego]

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=PKnUMaR5IkA

these mauri rugby players look like they are doing some serious dynamic chi kung...the sighs of rage that come off their faces...:)