Chi Sao Platforms

[KPM]

Just thought I would throw some ideas out on Chi Sao and see what you guys think. By Chi Sao "platform", I am referring to the basic rolling motion that is the foundation for launching various techniques.

In my experience I have seen and practiced two such platforms. The first I will refer to as "Luk Sao." It is the rolling platform found in Yip Man and Yuen Kay Shan WCK. The other I will refer to as "Poon Sao." It is the rolling platform found in WCK systems from Ku Lo village and other parts of the mainland. Note...the way I am using the terms is not necessarily accurate or consistent amongst all WCK families. I am only using this terminology to make discussing the two forms of Chi Sao easier.

For those unfamiliar with WCK other than from the various Yip Man branches, here is a link to Sifu Gary's website where he has posted several clips of him and his students doing Chi Sao using the Poon Sao platform with Master Fung Keung of Pin Sun WCK.

http://www.shaolinjeeshinwingchun.com.au/jeeshin/wingchun_fung_keun_kulo_san_lo.html

First, my observation is that the Luk Sao platform is specific to WCK, whereas the Poon Sao platform is more generic and can be found in other southern gung fu styles. I used to work out on occasion with a friend that was a 6th degree black belt in Ed Parker's Kenpo. He had been taught a Kenpo version of Chi Sao that basically used the Poon Sao platform.

My second observation, having trained both versions of Chi Sao, is that not only is the Luk Sao version more specific to WCK and the Poon Sao version more generic...the Luk Sao version is more specialized and the Poon Sao version is more generalized. In other words, the Luk Sao platform tends to be its own "game" apart from more realistic application. There are lots of things taught to make one successful within the confines of Luk Sao that don't really apply if the opponent is not also rolling with the same Bong/Tan/Fook structure. There is a certain amount of "gamesmanship" involved. Chi Sao becomes a whole activity in and of itself apart from self-defense or fighting.

On the other hand, the Poon Sao roll is less "structured" and more just pure sticking as a way to start an exchange from contact. Its essentially just rolling the arms in circles like you are cleaning the glass of a window in front of you. There is less "gamesmanship" because there is less structure (or lack thereof) to exploit. Since it is less specialized, it also seems to me that it is more likely to lead to technique that will transfer more directly over to real application. Since you aren't looking to exploit poor positioning on the part of your opponent/partner as much, it doesn't matter whether your partner is a WCK guy or not. It will allow a WCK guy to cross hands with a Mantis guy, White Crane guy...or in my case...even a Kenpo guy! :) You can also teach it pretty readily to someone that doesn't do WCK so that you have common ground on which to train things together.

A third observation....the energy in Luk Sao tends to be up and down with forward pressure and a 1, 2 count. The energy in Poon Sao tends to be side to side, softer, and more flowing.

A final observation...having done both, it seems to me likely that the more specialized Luk Sao platform evolved from the generalized Poon Sao platform as more structure was introduced. Its easy to see/feel how the upper arc of the circling motion would become a Bong Sao as the energy shifted from side to side to up and down.

Any comments or further observations are welcome. Has anyone else trained both Chi Sao platforms?

[YungChun]

In other words, the Luk Sao platform tends to be its own "game" apart from more realistic application. There are lots of things taught to make one successful within the confines of Luk Sao that don't really apply if the opponent is not also rolling with the same Bong/Tan/Fook structure.
Such as?

IMO this denotes misuse and misunderstanding of the drill..

What is one supposed to be learning and developing from the drill that does apply to application and why would one train elements, tactics that don't?

[Liddel]

"There are lots of things taught to make one successful within the confines of Luk Sao that don't really apply if the opponent is not also rolling with the same Bong/Tan/Fook structure."

Love the "dont really apply" - sort of but na, not really :)

I would fit into the "Luk Sao" version you allude to, being of Ip Man lineage and this statement isnt true for me.

- just like the forms most things contained within the Chi Sao platform have direct application to situations/actions. Those elements that DONT have a DIRECT application have other purposes like developing energy dexterity sensitivity.... I personally dont have much that has little or no use at all, every little bit counts.

So be careful how you box each "platform" in when discussing your "observations" LOL

Also - quick note -

From my POV, i dislike the term Rolling when people refer to Poon Sao.
(most do, im just different:))

My Poon Sao is more like the letter D. One side rolls or has a round element (Bong side) the other holds true on a line of attack (the Fook). and just for your reference....

Luk Sao to me is Basic VT sparring, beginning in Bi Jong with people apart and then one initiates action and closes the gap to attack...a few actions are given by either party - rinse and repeat. Its begins in a non contact situation.

Its all about starting a fight and/or when the contact is lost during a fight, getting it back in the right way.

Its the first step after Chi Sao exercises towards full on sparring.

Everyone has differnt terms, state of VT :), but thats what Luk Sao means to me.

DREW

[kung fu fighter]

Hey Keith,

In my opinion both platforms have equal importance in wing chun.

The luk sao develops the elbow specifically (sinking and rising energies, as well as force projection, while the rolling hands develops the wrist movements and continous fluid energy. The are both tools used to develop wing chun body structure which is similar to peng energy in tai chi. They are tools to develop the proper wing chun bio-mechanics.

Once one has the understanding of structure (needle wrapped cotton idea), any platform will transfer more directly over to real application.


Navin

[KPM]

YungChun wrote:
IMO this denotes misuse and misunderstanding of the drill..

--Have you trained the Poon Sao platform?

What is one supposed to be learning and developing from the drill that does apply to application and why would one train elements, tactics that don't?

--How often have you been taught to exploit poor Bong Structure? How often does a non-WCK opponent present a Bong structure in a realistic sparring or fighting situation?

Drew wrote:
So be careful how you box each "platform" in when discussing your "observations" LOL

---Any observations have to be generalities. I thought I was being careful to not make definitive pronouncements. :)

Also - quick note -
From my POV, i dislike the term Rolling when people refer to Poon Sao.
(most do, im just different)

---That's why I was careful to qualify my definitions and say that the way I was using the terms was not necessarily accurate or consistent amongst all WCK families....like a lot of the terminology in WCK! :eek:

Navin wrote:

In my opinion both platforms have equal importance in wing chun.

---I didn't say that one was more important than the other, just that one was more specialized than the other. I use both in my training.

The luk sao develops the elbow specifically (sinking and rising energies, as well as force projection, while the rolling hands develops the wrist movements and continous fluid energy. The are both tools used to develop wing chun body structure which is similar to peng energy in tai chi. They are tools to develop the proper wing chun bio-mechanics.

---I agree! You've obviously trained both platforms. :) Have you used them to "roll" with non-WCK partners? Have you done training where you go from a light-contact sparring situation to rolling Chi Sao and back again? I find the Poon Sao platform to work better in such a situation.

[Graychuan]

Here is a link to our site explaing in detail or view of the Look Sao Cycle...
http://www.louisvillewingchun.com/WingChunKungFu/RedBoatMagazine/WingChuns360º/tabid/86/Default.aspx

We use the Look Sao as a platform to build understanding of the Low/High Fook and the Tan/Bong side with proper structure, asking energy and no deviation from the principles. Our Phoon Sao is when we actually throw techniques from the Low or High Fook or the Tan/ Bong side of the Look Sao. However these techniques are thrown they do not deviate from the idea of SLT.
Once proper structure is ingrained (Look-Sao), then using sensitivity to attack/defend (Phoon-Sao) naturally manifests itself.


~Cg~

[YungChun]

Have you trained the Poon Sao platform?

I don't know.. I thought poon sao was another name for luk sao.. I have seen it used to refer to essentially the same thing..

I searched for poon sao and could only find this.. LOL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20sRfk4vs8I


How often have you been taught to exploit poor Bong Structure?

Not that often...

The way "I was taught" is to look at the drill's positions and conditions from an energy vector (direction) and position/location perspective. Imperfections (errors) of energy that leaves the line, or error of position that make spaces... Following the idea of WCK means that these imperfections in their structure cause imperfections in my own.. I correct this by changing my structure based on the conditions--thus doing a technique.. In fighting the same reference points are in play as are the same energy vectors..

Moves that facilitate *winning the game* with "touch me kill me techniques" that don't train you to take the line and keep the line in order to attack the line are problematic..

[Vajramusti]

I don't know.. I thought poon sao was another name for luk sao.. I have seen it used to refer to essentially the same thing..
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Problems with words. Many terms in wing chun are used somewhat differently by users
depending on context, lineage etc...

There are many variations of "chi sao" including luk sao and poon sao. Assuming two handed chi sao...luk can to some be seen as a heavier version of poon for somewhat different purposes
in training and development.

Although I have seena bit of Pien San, I dont know enough about Pien San or other non Ip man
styles to comment about their chi sao.

Just pointing out that terms are often defined differently.

BTW best wishes for the season to forum contributors.

joy chaudhuri

[kung fu fighter]

Great topic Keith!

I tied unsuccessfully to start a thread indentical to this a few years ago, but I didn't get alot of responses. I hope things will be different this time and people from the non- yip man linages will open up and join in as well.




---I agree! You've obviously trained both platforms. :) Have you used them to "roll" with non-WCK partners? Have you done training where you go from a light-contact sparring situation to rolling Chi Sao and back again? I find the Poon Sao platform to work better in such a situation.

Yes, I have used it very successfully against a very high rank judo blackbelt as well as against some brazillian jujitsu people and western boxers.
I totally agree that it work's alot better where you go from a light-contact sparring situation to rolling Chi Sao and back again, I find it's way more effortless than just crashing directly into the opponent's centerline which then becomes a struggle.


---I didn't say that one was more important than the other, just that one was more specialized than the other. I use both in my training.



I wasn't implying that you said one was more important than the other, I was just giving my 2 cent about the two different chi sao platform.

I personally prefer the poon sao platform because of the freedom it allows as well as the fluidity when transitioning from techniquie to technique, but at the same time all the attributes from my years of luk sao training is still in there somewhere. The poon sao just makes everything flow and blend or mesh together better, so that one can transition effortlessly from luk sao to poon sao.

Happy holidays
Navin

[KPM]

YungChun wrote:
I don't know.. I thought poon sao was another name for luk sao.. I have seen it used to refer to essentially the same thing..

---Guys! This was not meant to be a thread about terminology differences! I pointed out from the very beginning that the way I was using the terminology was for the convenience of the discussion to distinguish between the two rolling platforms. I also provided a link to short videos provided by Sifu Garry to illustrate what I was referring to as the "Poon Sao platform."

Navin wrote:
I wasn't implying that you said one was more important than the other, I was just giving my 2 cent about the two different chi sao platform.

---Ok! No worries! :)

I personally prefer the poon sao platform because of the freedom it allows as well as the fluidity when transitioning from techniquie to technique, but at the same time all the attributes from my years of luk sao training is still in there somewhere. The poon sao just makes everything flow and blend together better, so that one can transition effortlessly from luk sao to poon sao.

---I agree! Having done the Luk Sao platform for many years before learning the Poon Sao platform my experience has been the same. I have also seen footage of Fung Keung Chi Sao-ing and throwing in the Luk Sao roll on occasion. Since it isn't native to Ku Lo WCK, I'm sure he's picked it up from other WCK friends and finds it easy enough to incorporate into what he does.

[YungChun]

---Guys! This was not meant to be a thread about terminology differences! I pointed out from the very beginning that the way I was using the terminology was for the convenience of the discussion to distinguish between the two rolling platforms. I also provided a link to short videos provided by Sifu Garry to illustrate what I was referring to as the "Poon Sao platform."

Well excuse me, but I am trying to understand what the hell you are talking about and all I have to go on is your terms/words..

Care to point out the particular clips of poon sao on the PAGE you linked to (are they all poon sao?) or what your understanding of the purpose/method of PS that differentiates itself from luk sao..

[YungChun]

If this is poon sao:
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=h23EMqI7lc0
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=TknogplcNLA

Then it's outside my understanding of what WCK is.

[KPM]

YungChun wrote:
Well excuse me, but I am trying to understand what the hell you are talking about and all I have to go on is your terms/words.. Care to point out the particular clips of poon sao on the PAGE you linked to (are they all poon sao?)

---My apologies YungChun. I guess I depended upon common sense more than I should have! Seems to me that based on my prior description, one would quickly conclude that this is what I was talking about. But maybe I'm wrong!

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=yx49HLck8TQ&feature=related


or what your understanding of the purpose/method of PS that differentiates itself from luk sao..

---That is precisely how I started this thread! Might I suggest you go back and read my initial post?

[YungChun]

My apologies YungChun. I guess I depended upon common sense more than I should have! Seems to me that based on my prior description, one would quickly conclude that this is what I was talking about. But maybe I'm wrong!

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=yx49HLck8TQ&feature=related
Sorry I may be short on common sense.. I saw a page with lots of stuff..

Yes, I did see this clip as well.. IMO it is operating outside of what I understand WCK to be...

[KPM]

Sorry I may be short on common sense.. I saw a page with lots of stuff..

---No problem!

Yes, I did see this clip as well.. IMO it is operating outside of what I understand WCK to be...

---It may be operating outside of what Yip Man WCK is typically understood to be. But as I pointed out before, IMHO it likely predated the Luk Sao (Yip Man/Yuen Kay Shan) style rolling and lead up to its development. It is found within several different mainland lineages, and even some other southern chineses martial arts. I'm not trying to sound condesending here.....but could it be that it is outside of what you understand WCK to be precisely because the Luk Sao roll you are familiar with is "specialized" whereas the Poon Sao roll is more "generalized" as I explained before?

[YungChun]

but could it be that it is outside of what you understand WCK to be precisely because the Luk Sao roll you are familiar with is "specialized" whereas the Poon Sao roll is more "generalized" as I explained before?
I have no idea.. Given the variety of what people call luk sao I must assume there would also be different kinds of poon sao.. The poon sao in that clip does things where you are continually giving up position and using lateral energy--the death of a luk sao player. To me this is like the tail wagging the dog.

The luk sao was explained very specifically to me.. The way you mentioned about the up and down nature of luk sao is also contrary to luk sao as I know it.. The whole basis of the system and most of the work in chisao to me is based on the idea of occupying the centerline and using neutral <<forward energy>> wrt the centerline and cultivating that energy and the ability to accept non-neutral energy like a spring, store the energy (deformation) add your own energy to it and give it back in the form of release and then more release through controlling the line.. Like two guys with high pressure water hoses each pointed directly at each other's center. So long as neither of them moves the position, they cancel each other out and they both stay dry; the minute one moves off center HE gets soaked..

In poon sao do they release power, as in strike? Do they emphasize fan sao, or controlling the line for issuing follow up strikes? Do they incorporate the legs for leg traps, take downs, leg attacks, stance attacks? Is the poon sao combative?

[KPM]

YungChun wrote:
The luk sao was explained very specifically to me.. The way you mentioned about the up and down nature of luk sao is also contrary to luk sao as I know it..

---The elbow rises with Bong and drops with Tan. It can't help but have an up and down energy.

The whole basis of the system and most of the work in chisao to me is based on the idea of occupying the centerline and using neutral <<forward energy>> wrt the centerline and cultivating that energy and the ability to accept non-neutral energy like a spring,

---The Poon Sao platform still has a component of forward intent, but probably less out-right "pressuring" than the Luk Sao platform. It is also more likely to redirect and go around the opponent's energy than accept it and release it like a spring. Like I noted previously, I think it has a "softer" quality.


In poon sao do they release power, as in strike? Do they emphasize fan sao, or controlling the line for issuing follow up strikes? Do they incorporate the legs for leg traps, take downs, leg attacks, stance attacks? Is the poon sao combative?

---Sure! All of that! Like I said before, the Poon Sao roll is a platform for what you have noted just as the Luk Sao roll is a platform. They are just different starting points to accomplish the same goals.

[YungChun]

The elbow rises with Bong and drops with Tan. It can't help but have an up and down energy.

I don't equate the turning of the arm at the wrist, which should remain on the same point as necessarily rising energy... More rotational and there is still an uninterrupted forward pressure.. IOW there is no need when changing from Tan to Bong or from Bong to Tan to initiate force that leaves the line, but it can clear the line..


The Poon Sao platform still has a component of forward intent, but probably less out-right "pressuring" than the Luk Sao platform.

Quality luk sao does not force at all--it DOES load a spring ready to fill any space instanty.. Loading a spring is not like using a battering ram. I'd love for someone to (try) and take my hands on a big circle ride like that.....I'LL BLAST EM!


It is also more likely to redirect and go around the opponent's energy than accept it and release it like a spring. Like I noted previously, I think it has a "softer" quality.

Movements that go in circles and use near pure lateral energy as I saw in the clip are invested, energy-wise in going in circles, ignoring missing positions/open lines and lateral energy, in favor of maintaining a lateral and circular sticking nature, and one that IMO completely ignores:

1. Forward Spring Energy
2. Lut sao jik chung
3. Elbow power
4. Structure
5. Occupying the line
6. Facing (where needless turning was used)
7. Attacking hand defends..
8. Hand Unity..

Etc..

Luk Sao can be as soft as a baby's butt.. Ever hear accounts of Ip Man's chisao? I have played with folks who are that good, in terms of using virtually no energy and no excessive movement and yet can simply make you fall backwards in slow motion, despite your power, speed..

There are indeed circles used (jao sao/jip sao--huen sao) but exceedingly small ones, so small they might not be visible, that allow force to go--we leave and return.. The use of the spring does not denote using force against force, or shouldn't, if you move across a spring line of power it will yield but then spring back and let you go once you leave it's line. The spring, forward vector is KEY making use of energy and occupation of the line for simultaneous attack and defense, starting with gentle pressure, a small leak in the dam (elbow power); to a full blown explosion once the crack (in his structure) becomes large enough (body power). We seek to initiate centerline power not circular lateral power.. Something that lateral non centerline occupying/missing structure and non forward energy cannot and does not do IMO and certainly not with much economy..


Sure! All of that! Like I said before, the Poon Sao roll is a platform for what you have noted just as the Luk Sao roll is a platform. They are just different starting points to accomplish the same goals.
Let see some video of actual application from those motions..

[KPM]

YungChun wrote:
I don't equate the turning of the arm at the wrist, which should remain on the same point as necessarily rising energy... More rotational and there is still an uninterrupted forward pressure..

---It is still rotation in an up and down fashion...however small the circle...because the elbow is rising and falling. That's just simple biomechanics. You can't get around that!

I'd love for someone to (try) and take my hands on a big circle ride like that.....I'LL BLAST EM!

---Maybe you should wait until you've actually done the Poon Sao roll with someone that knows what they are doing before you make such conclusions and pronouncements. :eek:

Movements that go in circles and use near pure lateral energy as I saw in the clip are invested, energy-wise in going in circles, ignoring missing positions/open lines and lateral energy, in favor of maintaining a lateral and circular sticking nature,

---Likewise, someone COULD (not saying that I would) conclude that the Luk Sao roll that uses near pure up and down and forward energy is invested, energy-wise, in going forward...ignoring missing side lines and redirections in favor of maintaining forward energy and a vertical sticking nature. But that would be based on SEEING it without ever FEELING it.

and one that IMO completely ignores:
1. Forward Spring Energy
2. Lut sao jik chung
3. Elbow power
4. Structure
5. Occupying the line
6. Facing (where needless turning was used)
7. Attacking hand defends..
8. Hand Unity..

---Realize that you are passing all of these judgements based only upon seeing clips of Fung Keung teaching the basic roll to relative beginners. My advice, again, is to withhold such hasty conclusions until you've actually had a chance to try using the Poon Sao roll yourself with someone that knows what they are doing.

We seek to initiate centerline power not circular lateral power.. Something that lateral non centerline occupying/missing structure and non forward energy cannot and does not do IMO and certainly not with much economy..

---You are correct to an extent. The two different Chi Sao platforms have a different energy and a different feel to them. This also goes back to what I said about the Luk Sao platform being more "specialized" and the Poon Sao platform more "generalized." The Poon Sao platform is less structured than the Luk Sao platform. Like I said previously, it is more just pure "sticking" as a jumping off point for a technique exchange. All of the things you have posted come right in line with something else I said before......the Luk Sao platform has much more "gamesmanship" and WCK specific things about it.

Let see some video of actual application from those motions..

---I know Jim Roselando has posted Chi Sao clips in the past showing application. I don't know if those are still out there somewhere or not.

[Liddel]

KPM - ive touched hands with a guy who had three years experience in mainland VT - doing what you labeled "Poon Sao" where as i would be what you called "Luk Sao".

My experience was that i could adapt easily to anything he did but when i enforced my Luk Sao on his Poon he lost his touch and control quickly.

Now im an open minded guy, this person may have not been all that good in the overall picture, but it is what it is....just my experience.

IMHO i found "Luk Sao" had more to it, than his "Poon Sao". More support when real force was applied in any direction where as he was only 'comfortable' in his circled paths. Moreover when actions deviated from the set base actions "going around or using round paths rahter than straight" he had trouble finding timing to enter my space due to my reactions and elbow position.

From this (admitted) limited experience. i found the detail and specifics in "Luk Sao" had more application and seemless transition into sparring or spontaneous resisting fighting if you will.....

From a Ip Lineage POV, im with Jim, it breaks certain VT ideas we like to stick to.
1 is using stright lines and born of that is economy of motion which this individual that i met didnt do. He called it Vietnam VT said to come from mainland china just for Lineage perspective....

We had a mutual respect, in low percentage situations he did get past my first gate (the hand) and he understood the supported structure and explosoveness of using straight (er) lines which he didnt realise were in every direction not just up down left right.

DREW
:)

[kung fu fighter]

KPM - ive touched hands with a guy who had three years experience in mainland VT - doing what you labeled "Poon Sao" where as i would be what you called "Luk Sao".

My experience was that i could adapt easily to anything he did but when i enforced my Luk Sao on his Poon he lost his touch and control quickly.

Now im an open minded guy, this person may have not been all that good in the overall picture, but it is what it is....just my experience.

IMHO i found "Luk Sao" had more to it, than his "Poon Sao". More support when real force was applied in any direction where as he was only 'comfortable' in his circled paths. Moreover when actions deviated from the set base actions "going around or using round paths rahter than straight" he had trouble finding timing to enter my space due to my reactions and elbow position.

From this (admitted) limited experience. i found the detail and specifics in "Luk Sao" had more application and seemless transition into sparring or spontaneous resisting fighting if you will.....

From a Ip Lineage POV, im with Jim, it breaks certain VT ideas we like to stick to.
1 is using stright lines and born of that is economy of motion which this individual that i met didnt do. He called it Vietnam VT said to come from mainland china just for Lineage perspective....

We had a mutual respect, in low percentage situations he did get past my first gate (the hand) and he understood the supported structure and explosoveness of using straight (er) lines which he didnt realise were in every direction not just up down left right.

DREW
:)

Hey Liddel!

He probably didn't understand the structure necessary to apply his poon sao chi sao platform which is why he lost his control. Any chi sao platform would be an emty shell without structure, and thefore will not work the way they were intended to.

Merry Christmas
Navin

[Liddel]

Dont get me wrong he had structure.

In your opinion where is the structure really coming from in the "Poon Sao" version we're discussing ?

For me (in Luk Sao) the stance of course supports the elbow all the time - this is where the bulk of my resistance and structure comes from.

For me -

Wrist - elbow - shoulder - rooted stance. One fails another takes over.

Hands are in front, never away from the body where the support is less.
If a hand gets far away by your own or opponents doing, the stance follows.

His round path had aspects of no support, mostly when on the far edge of the round path where the hands and elbow were outside his body.

He also had issue with me trapping his arms with one hand and catching his body with another.

Do you use actions like punching and Pak Sao within the "Poon Sao" platform ?
Any vids ?

Parrying punching slipping and sticking are all part of my (what were calling in this discussion) Luk Sao.

Its what makes the platform a good step towards sparring and realistic fighing.

Curious

DREW

[YungChun]

It is still rotation in an up and down fashion...however small the circle...because the elbow is rising and falling. That's just simple biomechanics. You can't get around that!

Disagree..

There is a rotation of 90 degrees, that simple, not up and down, anymore than it's left to right...or right to left, just---rotation from (approx) 6 o'clock to 9 o'clock and back or from 6 o'clock to 3 o'clock and back.. To me that simply isn't explained accurately as up and down and is misleading because it seems to imply up/down energy which is false.

More importantly the energy is neutral with respect to the line, and this very movement--tan/bong is IN THE FORM; it occupies the line--and this is only bong/tan we're talking about. Now, isn't occupying the line a basic core element of WCK? Don't we occupy the centerline/central line?

Cause if not then to me it isn't WCK... And circles don't, especially big sticking circles--something I would call---extreme hand chasing....


Maybe you should wait until you've actually done the Poon Sao roll with someone that knows what they are doing before you make such conclusions and pronouncements. :eek:

I call it like I see it... IMO if I touched hands with that guy in the PJs I would take the line and send him flying out the window, cause he isn't in the center or trying to be (plus he doesn't look like he could defend himself against a POd school girl)..


Likewise, someone COULD (not saying that I would) conclude that the Luk Sao roll that uses near pure up and down and forward energy is invested, energy-wise
, in going forward...ignoring missing side lines and redirections in favor of maintaining forward energy and a vertical sticking nature. But that would be based on SEEING it without ever FEELING it.

This is all over the map.

We don't go up and down..

We redirect mainly through displacement using forward energy... We don't seek to apply lateral power; we do seek to occupy the line, we do change when encountering resistance...

I don't need to feel anything to see energy/motion, position and vectors that defy WCK concepts. Sure you can try to apply WCK concepts from positions and movement that defy same but what sense does it make? You could also try to apply these concepts starting with your hands behind your back, but again: what's the point?

The motion/energy and positions used there resemble something other than WCK, and/or do not fit in with WCK concepts/tools and techniques IMO. As I said Luk sao is actually in the form, the tools, the movement--where are those enormous circles from---hmmmmmm????????

Is this musical poon sao?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJNUy3O1kag
Some of those moves are right out of Saturday Night Fever... LOL

If so I rest my case........... :o And would advise any serious WCK men to study the following 'poon sao' instead: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20sRfk4vs8I

[KPM]

YungChun wrote:
Disagree.. There is a rotation of 90 degrees, that simple, not up and down, anymore than it's left to right...or right to left, just---rotation from (approx) 6 o'clock to 9 o'clock and back or from 6 o'clock to 3 o'clock and back.. To me that simply isn't explained accurately as up and down and is misleading because it seems to imply up/down energy which is false.

---Does your elbow not move from a superior postion (up) to an inferior position (down)? Is the elbow not higher in a Bong Sao than it is in a Tan Sao? You are arguing against simple biomechanics and making yourself sound somewhat silly.

Now, isn't occupying the line a basic core element of WCK? Don't we occupy the centerline/central line?

---CONTROLLING the centerline is a basic core element of WCK as I learned it. You don't have to occupy the center to control the center.

Cause if not then to me it isn't WCK... And circles don't, especially big sticking circles--something I would call---extreme hand chasing....

---Well, perhaps you have a limited view of WCK. Moy Yat's version isn't the only version.

I call it like I see it... IMO if I touched hands with that guy in the PJs I would take the line and send him flying out the window, cause he isn't in the center or trying to be (plus he doesn't look like he could defend himself against a POd school girl)..

---And what makes you think he wouldn't sense you coming up the center, redirect your force, and come at you from a side angle to completely disrupt your structure? Just because he isn't keeping his hands/arms right on the center doesn't mean that he isn't aware of the center and in control of it.


We don't go up and down..

---Your elbow isn't higher in the Bong than it is in the Tan? Interesting!

I don't need to feel anything to see energy/motion, position and vectors that defy WCK concepts.

---That's where you are wrong. Both in your not needing to feel what the Poon Sao platform is like, and saying that it defies WCK concepts.

Sure you can try to apply WCK concepts from positions and movement that defy same but what sense does it make? You could also try to apply these concepts starting with your hands behind your back, but again: what's the point?

---I don't know about you, but I train to deal with someone that is NOT doing WCK! No opponent is going to give you the structure and energies that you have been talking about in your Luk Sao Chi Sao training. The Poon Sao platform is more about pure sticking and reading the opponent's intentions and THEN reacting with WCK concepts. The Luk Sao platform is more about imposing a WCK structure right from the beginning and is more specific to a fellow WCK opponent. Everything you have posted so far supports that observation.

The motion/energy and positions used there resemble something other than WCK, and/or do not fit in with WCK concepts/tools and techniques IMO.

---Maybe they don't fit YOUR WCK concepts. But it is rather presumptious to declare that they are not WCK!

As I said Luk sao is actually in the form, the tools, the movement--where are those enormous circles from---hmmmmmm????????

--Ever done a Gan/Jum Sao to both sides in sequence?


Is this musical poon sao?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJNUy3O1kag
Some of those moves are right out of Saturday Night Fever... LOL

---I don't know what that was!!! :eek:

If so I rest my case........... :o And would advise any serious WCK men to study the following 'poon sao' instead: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20sRfk4vs8I

---I agree that this Poon Sao is worthy of study. :)

[YungChun]

Does your elbow not move from a superior postion (up) to an inferior position (down)? Is the elbow not higher in a Bong Sao than it is in a Tan Sao? You are arguing against simple biomechanics and making yourself sound somewhat silly.

I think it's silly to see something that turns (circular) as up and down (linear)..

The elbow does not move up any more than it does out. But this misses the point, the tool/motion occupies the line and fills center space--that's WCK--big circles ain't, like this is a surprise.....


You don't have to occupy the center to control the center.

So you're controlling a space but not in that space? Care to elaborate?

IMO these kinds of arguments show a complete misunderstanding of the system..


Well, perhaps you have a limited view of WCK. Moy Yat's version isn't the only version.

Perhaps you don't understand the basic core that is WCK.


And what makes you think he wouldn't sense you coming up the center, redirect your force, and come at you from a side angle to completely disrupt your structure?

I'm not impressed with what I see.. Would love to test the theory... :D


Your elbow isn't higher in the Bong than it is in the Tan?

Because the elbow is higher doesn't mean a circular movement is linear.. The point again is that there is no up energy that takes you off the line.


That's where you are wrong. Both in your not needing to feel what the Poon Sao platform is like, and saying that it defies WCK concepts.

IMO anyone who understands the system realizes that drill and the movements are completely outside of the nature of WCK, Ip Man WCK at the very least..

Anyone who can't see that IMHO don't know jack about IMVT IMO...

Let's do a poll.... :)

[KPM]

Jim:

---In the spirit of Christmas I am trying to keep this discussion civil and friendly. But you aren't making that easy! :confused:

I think it's silly to see something that turns (circular) as up and down (linear)..

---I never said the Luk Sao roll was linear. I said it had an up and down energy to it. Again, this is just simple biomechanics! Your elbow goes up with Bong and down with Tan! I don't see why you are arguing this point. Look a simple circle. The top and bottom arc of the circle goes side to side. The left side and right side arc of the circle goes up and down. The Luk Sao roll has an energy that emphases the up and down arc. The Poon Sao roll has an energy that emphasizes the side to side arc. In the Luk Sao roll the elbow moves from Bong to Tan and follows the side arc of the circle. That gives it an "up and down" energy. Simply biomechanics.

The elbow does not move up any more than it does out.

---I say again, if you can do Bong and Tan without moving the elbow up or down then you are quite talented!

But this misses the point, the tool/motion occupies the line and fills center space--that's WCK--big circles ain't, like this is a surprise.....

---The circling in Poon Sao can range from large to small. Most of the serious stuff is done from a pretty tight circle. Again, you are judging things upon clips of Fung Sifu teaching beginners to his method.

So you're controlling a space but not in that space? Care to elaborate?

---Haven't you studied the 3rd form? Lots of cases in there of starting from off of the center and recovering the center. Similar idea.

IMO these kinds of arguments show a complete misunderstanding of the system..

---Then perhaps you need to expand your perspective. There is more WCK than Yip Man WCK. And there is more Yip Man WCK than Moy Yat WCK.

Perhaps you don't understand the basic core that is WCK.

---Simply because I don't believe you can do a Bong without lifting the elbow or a Tan without sinking the elbow? Because I see Luk Sao as having an up and down energy? Because I see value in Poon Sao? Because I refuse to judge Fung Sifu's skills and abilities based only on a few short video clips? You are sounding very judgmental and narrow-minded.

Because the elbow is higher doesn't mean a circular movement is linear.. The point again is that there is no up energy that takes you off the line.

--I never said anything about being taken off the line. But there is an "up" energy. :D

IMO anyone who understands the system realizes that drill and the movements are completely outside of the nature of WCK, Ip Man WCK at the very least..

---You are certainly entitled to your opinion. IMO anyone who understands the system realizes that it is adaptable in various situations and has a wider application than the narrow confines of the Luk Sao roll.

Anyone who can't see that IMHO don't know jack about IMVT IMO...Let's do a poll.... :)

---Yes, let's do! Unfortunately, in my experience what may interest you and I doesn't necessarily interest the other guys that come here.

Merry Christmas!

[Liddel]

I have to admit, im with Jim still :). Ill focus on one part or the platform to put foward what i mean.....

To me the main idea of these drills is all about redirecing forces away from ones center. This is the same for both poon and Luk but how they do it is totally different but yet we have the same name Ving Tsun....go figure.

Using slide lines (gravity) based on a triangle shape with regard to my structure is what my Luk Sao is based on. In Poon all i see is round shapes.

In Luk actions are angled in such a way, force naturally falls away first and foremost ,because of triangled structure.... with no energy input in the arms from me other than to hold a shape (structure)...

In the poon sao we see in the clips, to redirect said force one must apply ones own force to begin with, turning it from inside to out and back again as the drill repeats. Its not built on redirecting force with structure but actual application and sensitivity. Luk Sao IMO has Both not just one.

Straight lines and triangles are two mains parts to my VT which are utilised and enforced in my Luk Sao...and run right through the system. This is not the case IME with what we are calling Poon Sao here.

Round paths are used , elbow behavior is different, no first and second gates because of the elbow behaviour based on using a circle or triangle....

One could balance a heavy weight on a circle, but if you tried to balance the same weight ontop a triagle the weight would no doubt fall to one side.
The margins of balance are there in both shapes but with a triangle the margin of balance is alot lot smaller.

IMO even though we have the same style name, we are very very different.
In fact i believe we shouldnt share the same name as its misleading one to believe there are more similarities than not when i believe there are more differences and we just LOOK similar.

I do believe that 'Luk Sao' is more specific to VT and more comprehensive in application energy and technique. But my experince is limited and im open to someone changing my POV.

This is just a quick post so i hope it makes sence... LOL

DREW

[KPM]

Drew wrote:
To me the main idea of these drills is all about redirecing forces away from ones center. This is the same for both poon and Luk but how they do it is totally different but yet we have the same name Ving Tsun....go figure.

---Its not as different as you think! :D One can occupy the center and direct things away from it. Or one can be off the center and not allow things to gain access to it. Simply two sides to the same coin. The Poon Sao roll may start off of the center, but when the Poop hits the fan, its still all about occupying and controlling the center with WCK technique.

Using slide lines (gravity) based on a triangle shape with regard to my structure is what my Luk Sao is based on. In Poon all i see is round shapes.

---Round shapes in the roll....yes. But that doesn't mean the typical WCK triangle or wedge does not come out while applying techniques from the rolling platform.

In Luk actions are angled in such a way, force naturally falls away first and foremost ,because of triangled structure.... with no energy input in the arms from me other than to hold a shape (structure)...

---But there is an energy investment in creating that wedge. In Poon Sao actions are redirected in such away that they do not occupy the center. They are gently lead away. Also an energy investment. How much of an energy investment for both methods depends upon how skillful one is.

Its not built on redirecting force with structure but actual application and sensitivity.

---Not true. It is built on redirecting force with structure. The rolling motions of the arms are connected to the hips and powered by the Kwa.

Straight lines and triangles are two mains parts to my VT which are utilised and enforced in my Luk Sao...and run right through the system. This is not the case IME with what we are calling Poon Sao here.

---You are right in the sense that the Luk Sao structure is like a "rolling wedge" and more triangular. The Poon Sao structure is more like a coiling action. Again, this goes back to the idea that Luk Sao is more specialized and Poon Sao is more generalized. That doesn't make one bad and the other good.

One could balance a heavy weight on a circle, but if you tried to balance the same weight ontop a triagle the weight would no doubt fall to one side.

---If that circle is in motion, I challenge you to get a heavy weight to balance on it!

The margins of balance are there in both shapes but with a triangle the margin of balance is alot lot smaller.

---A circle is the essence of flowing, smoothness, and softness. All positive attributes according to most TMAs, including WCK.

IMO even though we have the same style name, we are very very different.
In fact i believe we shouldnt share the same name as its misleading one to believe there are more similarities than not when i believe there are more differences and we just LOOK similar.

---LOL! I'm sure that Fung Keung would be impressed to here that you don't think he is doing WCK! Especially considering that his version is likely closer to the "original" and "authentic" version than Yip Man WCK! :D But this is not the place to get off into another lineage dispute. Remember, the Fung's claim direct lineage from Leung Jan upon his retirement to Ku Lo village. Fung Keung is only third generation from Leung Jan himself! Now in the scheme of things that doesn't prove anything. But it does suggest that it would be an error to think that what he is doing doesn't deserve to be called "Wing Chun Kuen"!!!!!

I do believe that 'Luk Sao' is more specific to VT and more comprehensive in application energy and technique. But my experince is limited and im open to someone changing my POV.

---More specific....yes. More specialized...yes. More comprehensive in application...no.

This is just a quick post so i hope it makes sence... LOL

---Made sense to me! Thanks for the input. Merry Christmas!

[KPM]

Here is the closest example of the feminine structure that i found
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnHlLiYmVXA

Regards
Navin


Hey Navin!

Thanks for the clip. Notice that near the beginning of the clip there are several occasions where they transition from the Luk Sao rolling platform to the Poon Sao rolling platform for a few beats and then back again! :eek: I don't think this was necessarily intentional. More likely they were both doing the Luk Sao roll transition right after each other. I failed to point out in my prior posts.....the transition from one position (left Bong/right Fook) to the other position (right Bong/left Fook) in the Luk Sao roll is essentially the Poon Sao roll! :)

[YungChun]

The Luk Sao roll has an energy that emphases the up and down arc. The Poon Sao roll has an energy that emphasizes the side to side arc.

I just think it's funny..

The elbow is indeed higher or lower but no more than it is going out laterally more than in or in more than out--that's why it's called an arc..

To me you are fixated on the up down (someone else never having seen might see bong as going out not up) which still has nothing to do with the point of the matter except that turning allows the movement not to transfer energy to the contact point which leaves the GD line.


In the Luk Sao roll the elbow moves from Bong to Tan and follows the side arc of the circle. That gives it an "up and down" energy.

No it gives the elbow a rotational energy.. It (the elbow) doesn't go up or down anymore than it goes out or in.... ARC--ummmm hello?... And the wrist doesn't go up or down or in or out--there is not up and down energy at the contact point........


The circling in Poon Sao can range from large to small. Most of the serious stuff is done from a pretty tight circle. Again, you are judging things upon clips of Fung Sifu teaching beginners to his method.

This is circling for no reason.. A deeper understanding of the system reveals that we do movements or techniques based on conditions of energy and position, not for the hell of it.

In luk sao or chisao we circle, jao or run for a reason--to change... It's based on conditions, we don't go in circles for the sake of going in circles..


Haven't you studied the 3rd form? Lots of cases in there of starting from off of the center and recovering the center. Similar idea.

You say similar--but not similar to me..

Recovering the center means occupying it... Yes we leave and/or return to the line to occupy and control, which has nothing to do with controlling the line without occupying it, which is what you intimated..


Then perhaps you need to expand your perspective.

Your opinion.. I expand my WCK perspective based on WCK concepts/tools not what IMO is not WCK concepts/tools..


There is more WCK than Yip Man WCK.

True, I am not addressing brand X..


And there is more Yip Man WCK than Moy Yat WCK.

Seems to me that Drew (from another lineage) and I are on the same page.. So apparently it's not all about my teacher and his particular method of teaching..

And you are basing this on what experience training under him?



I never said anything about being taken off the line. But there is an "up" energy.

No but I did..
You're big poon sao circles or whatever sized circles are taking you off the line for no reason other than hand chasing.. In WCK and luk sao we don't leave the line unless there is a reason to do so or we have been taken off the line... Leaving the line for no reason and leaving out structure is not what (IM) WCK is all about and I think most folks are clear on that.. A bong is a bong, a tan is a tan and occupying the line is same.. By removing those core elements you are removing most of the core concepts.. One need not be a brain surgeon to see that.. You can call it anything you want but when you decompile something and put it back together a different way it very simply isn't the same thing no matter how much you might like it to be..


IMO anyone who understands the system realizes that it is adaptable in various situations and has a wider application than the narrow confines of the Luk Sao roll.

It's not about the luk sao roll--a tool when used correctly to teach WCK energy and position; it's about completely ignoring the basic concepts/tactics of the system and even ignoring the most basic structures of the system and then pretending it's the same--it's not.. Black is not White, Blue is not Red..

[YungChun]

Structure number One is a solid structure which relies on correct posture, skeletal alignment and tendon power, it feels like fighting a wall when on the receiving end.

I have never heard good WCK energy described like this..

IMO this is not good WCK energy and or use of position.

Ip Man WCK does not fight force with force--it changes and adapts... We leave the line when moved out of it--or should.. We return to the line to occupy it and attack..


I personally believe this is the masculine wing chun structure from Wong Wah Bo.

Never met the man...

Good Ip Man WCK is substantial but very much pliable--like a spring.. Ip used to control his students easily despite the fact that he was an ultra feather weight--how could Ip have used/taught strong man WCK??????

[KPM]

Jim wrote:

To me you are fixated on the up down

---To me you are fixated on simply arguing for arguings sake!

No it gives the elbow a rotational energy..

---True! Rotation with an emphasis on the up and down vector! :)

It (the elbow) doesn't go up or down anymore than it goes out or in.... ARC--ummmm hello?...

---So, once again I will ask.....can you do a Bong to Tan roll and back again without lifting the elbow with Bong and sinking it with Tan?

And the wrist doesn't go up or down or in or out--there is not up and down energy at the contact point........

---Touch the tip of your right index finger to outside edge of your wrist. Now do a Tan to Bong motion and tell me that your finger does not move up and down. Even if the center of your wrist remains in the exact same position, the rotational component lifts and drops the edge of the wrist. Simply biomechanics.

This is circling for no reason.. A deeper understanding of the system reveals that we do movements or techniques based on conditions of energy and position, not for the hell of it.

---This is circling to "stick" to "listen" to "feel" and to "read" the opponent's/partner's movement, energy, and intention. Just because you don't understand what is going on is no reason to run it down.

In luk sao or chisao we circle, jao or run for a reason--to change... It's based on conditions, we don't go in circles for the sake of going in circles..

---The Poon Sao roll is a platform or "carrier" of motion that leads to application when the partner does something or leaves an opening, just as the Luk Sao roll platform is. It isn't going in circles for the sake of going in circles. I would think even a basic understanding of "sticking" would make that obvious.

You say similar--but not similar to me..

---Ah! But you've proven yourself rather narrow-minded! :p

Recovering the center means occupying it... Yes we leave and/or return to the line to occupy and control, which has nothing to do with controlling the line without occupying it, which is what you intimated..

---If you are aware of the center and can control the opponent so that he cannot exploit it and gain a superior position....even if you are not currently occupying it yourself...then you are controlling the center.

True, I am not addressing brand X..

---Of course you are! You are being very critical of the Poon Sao Chi Sao platform, which is "brand X" as you put it since it is not part of Yip Man WCK!


And you are basing this on what experience training under him?

---Talk about being hypocritical!!!!! You are basing all of your criticisms of the Poon Sao platform based on training it with.....who? You are basing all of your criticism of Fung Keung Sifu based on training with him....when?

So you do your bong without moving/lifting the elbow? Uh huh.. :rolleyes:
The bong has a shape--what is the shape of your bong AND what does it have to do with Ip Man WCK's bong? And your Tan does not have a sinking elbow? What is your Tan? Sounds like you are just saying anything is Tan and anything is Bong--define those tools.. I guess you can call whatever you do whatever you want but IMO it has nothing to do with the subject..

---Wow! What thread are you reading? Now you are putting words in my mouth? Go back and take a gander at my post again. This is what you will find was actually said:

You wrote:
Perhaps you don't understand the basic core that is WCK.

I replied:
Simply because I don't believe you can do a Bong without lifting the elbow or a Tan without sinking the elbow? Because I see Luk Sao as having an up and down energy? Because I see value in Poon Sao? Because I refuse to judge Fung Sifu's skills and abilities based only on a few short video clips? You are sounding very judgmental and narrow-minded.

---Given the way in which you have twisted this discussion, ignored my points, and continue to simply be argumentative....I'm through discussing this with you Jim. If you don't see value in the Poon Sao roll and don't want to learn it or practice it...fine! That is certainly your perogative! But you don't have to be so uncivil in your tone, you don't have to run down someone that is acknowledged as a "Master" in a WCK system different than your own...saying that it isn't really WCK, and that he couldn't fight off a PO'd school girl....based entirely on seeing said Master in a few short video clips training beginners! You have proven yourself in this thread to be very narrow-minded and judgmental. Discussing anything further with you is not going to be productive for either of us.

---If anyone else has some questions about the Poon Sao platform or comments about their experience with it...please feel free to continue this thread.

[YungChun]

To me you are fixated on simply arguing for arguings sake!

Likewise..


Rotation with an emphasis on the up and down vector! :)

How can there be an emphasis on up and down when the movement is an arc.. This is just absurd.. Why not argue that it moves out and in? Because it does that just as much... Again how can an arc have a linear emphasis? Answer: IT can't by definition..

You are not addressing the reality of the points made..


Even if the center of your wrist remains in the exact same position, the rotational component lifts and drops the edge of the wrist.

And yes on a wheel one side goes up and the other down... But the wheel is not moving up or down.... Likewise the energy vector is neutral WRT the centerline..


This is circling to "stick" to "listen" to "feel" and to "read" the opponent's/partner's movement, energy, and intention. Just because you don't understand what is going on is no reason to run it down.

Sticking to listen IS chasing hands...

You want to justify it by calling it listening--fine by me.. But it ain't Ip's WCK..


The Poon Sao roll is a platform or "carrier" of motion that leads to application when the partner does something or leaves an opening

In that platform there is ALWAYS an opening.. The fact that you don't see that speaks volumes.


Ah! But you've proven yourself rather narrow-minded!

You want to go there by labeling me?

No problem.. I don't think you have a good grasp of Ip's WCK system..


If you are aware of the center and can control the opponent so that he cannot exploit it and gain a superior position....even if you are not currently occupying it yourself...then you are controlling the center.

That's great.. What style is that?


Of course you are! You are being very critical of the Poon Sao Chi Sao platform, which is "brand X" as you put it since it is not part of Yip Man WCK!

No I am saying that this platform as you call it is not consistent with Ip's WCK and guess what? It's not..


Talk about being hypocritical!!!!! You are basing all of your criticisms of the Poon Sao platform based on training it with.....who?

I don't need to train under anyone to see that this platform is not consistent with Ip's WCK.. You on the other hand have no basis or knowledge of what my teacher taught or what makes him different from anyone else..

As I said Drew and others I am sure see this much the same and yet he is from a totally different line but understands that this platform is not consistent with Ip's WCK because it is not..


Wow! What thread are you reading? Now you are putting words in my mouth? Go back and take a gander at my post again.

Sorry misread your comment.


---Given the way in which you have twisted this discussion, ignored my points, and continue to simply be argumentative....I'm through discussing this with you Jim. If you don't see value in the Poon Sao roll and don't want to learn it or practice it...fine! That is certainly your perogative! But you don't have to be so uncivil in your tone, you don't have to run down someone that is acknowledged as a "Master" in a WCK system different than your own...saying that it isn't really WCK, and that he couldn't fight off a PO'd school girl....based entirely on seeing said Master in a few short video clips training beginners! You have proven yourself in this thread to be very narrow-minded and judgmental. Discussing anything further with you is not going to be productive for either of us.

Sorry but IMO you are unable to refute any of the points made.. The reasons this platform does not fit and the attributes that it ignores, while you also label me for taking the position I have..

The platform very simply does not fit in with Ip's version of the system...

Even you said luk sao is more specific to Ip's WCK; I agree, which means the other is less so and therefore more outside it, which is what I am saying--it's over the line, pun intended.

[KPM]

This is my final comment. Jim, with all due respect, you have come across as a total A-hole in this discussion. I tried to keep it light and civil, but to no avail.

How can there be an emphasis on up and down when the movement is an arc.. This is just absurd.. Why not argue that it moves out and in? Because it does that just as much... Again how can an arc have a linear emphasis? Answer: IT can't by definition..

---If you had experience in both rolling platforms you would feel the difference in the energies involved.

You are not addressing the reality of the points made..

---YOU are not addressing the reality of the simple biomechanics that I have pointed out! Nor my direct questions.....can you do a Bong without lifting the elbow? Can you do a Tan without sinking the elbow? These biomechanical realities give the Luk Sao roll an up and down energy regardless of whether your wrists leave the centerline or not and regardless of whether you want to deny it!

And yes on a wheel one side goes up and the other down... But the wheel is not moving up or down.... Likewise the energy vector is neutral WRT the centerline..

---Can you keep BOTH of your wrists in EXACTLY the same spot when you roll?

Sticking to listen IS chasing hands...

---So you never just roll in Luk Sao in a "pre-engagement" context without immediately launching techniques at your partner?


In that platform there is ALWAYS an opening.. The fact that you don't see that speaks volumes.

---The fact that you don't see what is actually going on in the Poon Sao platform and don't understand basic biomechanics speaks volumes.

You want to go there by labeling me?

---Why not? You've certainly been passing judgement on me!

No I am saying that this platform as you call it is not consistent with Ip's WCK and guess what? It's not..

---No. You have not qualified your comments in that fashion in the past. You have said that the Poon Sao platform was not consistent with WCK at all. You have gone so far as to suggest that Fung Keung's system should not be called WCK, and said that Fung Keung couldn't fight off a PO'd school girl. That goes far beyond have a civil discussion comparing the Poon Sao platform to what you know of Ip's WCK.

As I said Drew and others I am sure see this much the same and yet he is from a totally different line but understands that this platform is not consistent with Ip's WCK because it is not..

---Since the only other people that have bothered to post here are Drew and Navin....Drew agreeing with you and Navin agreeing with me....I'd say were pretty even.

Sorry but IMO you are unable to refute any of the points made..

---I think I have refuted all of the points you made. You said that the Luk Sao platform doesn't have a up and down energy because it stays neutral in regards to the centerline. I pointed out that there is more involved than keeping the hands on the centerline that gives it an up and down energy. You said the Luk Sao platform was in the forms as the Bong - Tan movement. I pointed out the the Poon Sao platform was there as the Gan/Jum to Gan/Jum movement. You said the Poon Sao platform has big circles. I said that what you saw was a bit exagerrated for the teaching of beginners and that the circle is typically very tight when doing serious application. You said I claimed that I could do a Bong without lifting the elbow and a Tan without sinking it. I pointed out that you haven't been reading very closely. You said that the Poon Sao platform was just circling for circling's sake and "chasing hands" I pointed out that it was sticking and listening in a "pre-engagement" context, just as is done with the Luk Sao roll. You said that Fung Keung was not doing WCK. I pointed out that he is a 3rd generation master from Leung Jan himself. You said that the Poon Sao platform does not fit in with your understanding of WCK. I pointed out that your experience is limited and that you needed to broaden your understanding of what WCK is. Should I go on?

---I'm done with you Jim, but I'm sure you will have the last word. Now...if anyone else is willing to continue the discussion in a CIVIL tone, I'm open to any comments....even negative ones. :)