yip chun - punching hard

[ไRui_Jingδ]

I was able to get a hold of a video titled "Original Wing Chun - Grandmaster Yip Chun" The beginning shows Yip Man demonstrating the first 2 forms and then Yip Chun showing all 3 forms. Then Yip Chun demonstrates some chi sao with his student Samual Kwok and another student. Towards the end the commentator states:

"A good master will only demonstrate with a touch where the weak point has appeared. If he punches hard, he is not a good master."

How do you feel about this comment?

[Knifefighter]

I was able to get a hold of a video titled "Original Wing Chun - Grandmaster Yip Chun" The beginning shows Yip Man demonstrating the first 2 forms and then Yip Chun showing all 3 forms. Then Yip Chun demonstrates some chi sao with his son Samual Kwok and another student. Towards the end the commentator states:

"A good master will only demonstrate with a touch where the weak point has appeared. If he punches hard, he is not a good master."

How do you feel about this comment?

Kind of like the saying in BJJ that you don't need to use strength. Only works if you completely outclass your opponent.

[Phil Redmond]

. . . . Then Yip Chun demonstrates some chi sao with his son Samual Kwok and another student. . . .

According to this: http://www.kwokwingchun.com/index.php?pageid=22
Samuel Kwok is the son of a Church Minister

[ไRui_Jingδ]

According to this: http://www.kwokwingchun.com/index.php?pageid=22
Samuel Kwok is the son of a Church Minister

Student* I don't know why I thought he was his son.

Thanks for the correction. :)

[Ultimatewingchun]

""A good master will only demonstrate with a touch where the weak point has appeared. If he punches hard, he is not a good master."

How do you feel about this comment?


***IT'S one thing to say that a good instructor should not be hurting/injuring his students - but quite another to say that he should never punch hard. Put on the gloves and protective gear and punch hard - and then you find out for sure where the weak points are and whether they can be exploited or not.

[anerlich]

How do you feel about this comment?

It sounds like it was made by someone who can't punch very hard :p

[tjwingchun]

It sounds like it was made by someone who can't punch very hard :pI am the other participant in the ¨Original Wing Chun¨video, and I also believe in Yip Chun´s statement, I don´t believe in heavy contact sparring, as an instructor you should have the skill to manipulate a student into a position to what I call ¨Offload¨that is to use full power.

You can never practice full power when sparring, even with gloves on and head guards, as the possible brain damage is something I am not preparred to risk in a student.

I have developed my punching power as well as elbow over the years and have confidence that given the chance they will have an effect, but I still will not use my ability over a student to exercise or gauge my striking capability.

Also over the years of teaching I have had students use their strikes effectively in real situations, yet I also remind them that there are individuals out there who if you hit them with a basball bat would laugh at you and rip your head off.

Fights are by nature ¨One off¨events, and getting back to the point of the thread, what Yip Chun was probably referring to was the responsibility of the teacher to educate not subjugate.

I have made what would be considered heavy contacts with students over the years but these were in chi sau which was as close to reality as sparring can ever be without crossing the line into actual combat. Yet I have never hit student hard when it served no more purpose than demonstrating thatI could do so if I wished.

Wing Chun is a fighting system and that should always be kept in mind, so contact should be expected, but hitting for the sake of it must be questioned especially when practicing with a less experienced person.

[Liddel]

Im not a big fan of using punching power in Chi Sao platforms.. Gor Luk Poon etc.

The purpose for me is to drill techniques to get to the point of punching...meaning controlling an opponent to open up space, cross his hands, trip him up, catch his center etc

So if Ip Chun is advocating not using heavy punches in Chi Sao platforms but to spar then i agree.

If i used hard punching power the drill wouldnt be able to cycle as much, people would need time outs, the skill aspect would lack because some would focus on a game of 'hard tag' rather than focusing on the skill of sticking and controlling...which is what my main focus is with Chi Sao platforms.

Im a big believer in developing good power and sparring with heavy shots. Making it real. but there are other trpes of training to do this. IMHO Chi Sao is not the place.....

TJ i have friends of a few other styles and when we get together to do mixed sparring we use heavy shots. Almost 90 percent. We use head gear and 16 to 18oz gloves... let me tell you, yes you can get ka blamm'ed and get a head ring on but its far from serious brain damage and better to prepare for that with friends than get surprised in the street.

Taking head and body shots should be part of your conditioning training IMO.
Start off easy work your way up...it aint that bad you just have to know your limits.

DREW

[YungChun]

The purpose for me is to drill techniques to get to the point of punching...meaning controlling an opponent to open up space, cross his hands, trip him up, catch his center etc

Happy New Year..

Not picking on you Drew just found your post useful to work off of.. :)


I agree that ChiSao can be correctly used to train many different attributes..

However I disagree that for some reason we must leave out what we call power release. Not that it ALWAYS has to be full power or the focus every session..BUT a key attribute nonetheless.

Some of the advanced folks I know will instead of actually blasting just make a fist and move you backward with those fists or palms, showing good body connection.. This is the classical way IMO..

And that's okay but I feel very strongly that power generation incorporation is also key to bring that attribute out as we focus on bringing out the other attributes and skills you mentioned.

I see many folks with no power, body connection doing ChiSao with absolutely no fan sao or correct use of the body and movement--no lut sao jik chung possible.. If you don't want to bash them you still have to move them or otherwise have a body connection.. If this connection is not tested, verified and used then all the rest of it may well be useless IMO..


So if Ip Chun is advocating not using heavy punches in Chi Sao platforms but to spar then i agree.
And I agree with Victor on this one. No need to blast your students for the camera or whatever, but... IMO making a point of not including power generation along with and right along side of all the other attributes is not helpful in ensuring their presence and viability, especially in conjunction with these other skills. If my partner can touch my chest but not move me or break my structure with his technique then he had no technique.. Guys used to do this from other schools years ago and I would just step into them and break their balance.


If i used hard punching power the drill wouldnt be able to cycle as much
No idea why not.. Rolling for us is normally complete once the action starts.. Then either someone takes control or not. If they do they hit... If they don't they get it; or both fail.. RESET.. That simple.


people would need time outs
They do anyway...

With hitting going on (assuming they are at that level) then they are building up the ability to not only issue strong hits but take them as well.. Key attributes..


the skill aspect would lack because some would focus on a game of 'hard tag' rather than focusing on the skill of sticking and controlling
Main purpose IMO is to develop the same skills you will later use..

All techniques IMO control in one way or another.. The power in the strikes control as a part of that power!! So if no power then no training control through power.

The focus IMO of WCK is close range striking--if so then it's hard to justify not doing what everything else is supposed to set up.

Then you have another issue:
If no actual powerful striking then you don't get to train resistance to that powerful striking... Again key attributes.

[Liddel]

Happy New Year..
Not picking on you Drew just found your post useful to work off of.. :)

LOL, you should know by now Jim i like discussing alternate opinions. As long as you alwyas come over to my way of thinking at the end. ;)



I disagree that for some reason we must leave out what we call power release. Not that it ALWAYS has to be full power or the focus every session..BUT a key attribute nonetheless.

Some of the advanced folks I know will instead of actually blasting just make a fist and move you backward with those fists or palms, showing good body connection.. This is the classical way IMO..

I def agree here jim. But IMO moving someone or to issue force on them with your fist is different from hitting them HARD.



I feel very strongly that power generation incorporation is also key to bring that attribute out as we focus on bringing out the other attributes and skills you mentioned.

Again i would agree, but when and where to bring that out is obviously where our opinions differ. Im of the opinoin force should be added to Chio Sao platforms later as a student, focusing on technique and co ordination before adding power as your base skill increases.



No idea why not.. Rolling for us is normally complete once the action starts.. Then either someone takes control or not. If they do they hit... If they don't they get it; or both fail.. RESET.. That simple.

Im posting from the initial POV that Ip Chun supposedly said...
"If he punches hard..." Hard to me means i hurt you, cause my hard punch can.
Im sure yours too. So if were talking landing a punch but not one that would do a bit of damage...then i agree.





With hitting going on (assuming they are at that level) then they are building up the ability to not only issue strong hits but take them as well.. Key attributes..

Cant argue with that.



Main purpose IMO is to develop the same skills you will later use..

All techniques IMO control in one way or another.. The power in the strikes control as a part of that power!! So if no power then no training control through power.

The focus IMO of WCK is close range striking--if so then it's hard to justify not doing what everything else is supposed to set up.
Then you have another issue:
If no actual powerful striking then you don't get to train resistance to that powerful striking... Again key attributes.

For me i do this in Sparring and other related live drills for isolating certain fight responces etc.... so again if your advocating hard hitting in Chi Sao, then we just have different opinions.

I can use real resisting force in chi sao i can push pull control (or try) your movements with all my energy thats fine...its the landing heavy shots to the face and body i leave for sparring...thats my point...just there is a time and a place for it and IMO its not in chi Sao.

Ill hit a training partner in chi sao, but it wont be near as much force ill issue on him when we spar. :)
If i launched "Heavy" elbows in Chi Sao none of the guys at training would have girlfriends, theyd all be fugly.

DREW