CLF or Bullshido?

[5thBrother]

Hi Choy Lay Fut people~

is this a legit Choy Lay Fut Form??

I know there are MANY CLF forms over the 3 main branches so even "flavour" wise?

or is this obvious Bullshido?

Form is called "Ginger Fist"

Basically, the origin of the form was done in the Ginger Fields of China, and the form is actually based off the move where I drop down and throw the dirt or the mud at my opponent. The Actual Name of the Form in Chinese is NG Hum Ni. So, the actual form was named after one of the sifus saw a bird fling mud at a prey bird in a ginger field.

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v224/Wizardsr/?action=view&current=ECinv01.flv

[fawlung]

Definitely can't call this a CLF form.

I don't have any idea what "style" this guy practices but from the looks of his form, there might be a chance this is from the Ed Parker Kenpo System or some offshoot? I'm just grasping at straws. I had read (I believe here) that Ed Parker had studied some CLF.

Either way, there is definitely no CLF flavor to this set at all so even if it was originally a CLF form it has been modified so much that it is no longer CLF.

[T. Cunningham]

Gingerfist as we practice it is not a form but is a type of fist. Shows up in our Bak Mo vs Crane 2 man set.

[5thBrother]

Definitely can't call this a CLF form.

I don't have any idea what "style" this guy practices but from the looks of his form, there might be a chance this is from the Ed Parker Kenpo System or some offshoot? I'm just grasping at straws. I had read (I believe here) that Ed Parker had studied some CLF.

Either way, there is definitely no CLF flavor to this set at all so even if it was originally a CLF form it has been modified so much that it is no longer CLF.


Thanks for your opinion.. thats what i thought too.. but i'm not of CLF


BTW the performer is Paul White "Here is one [above form] that I
took 1st place with at the East Coast invitational.

who is "Director of the the Molum Combat Arts Association. Director of the the MLCAA Honor Society, over 35 years in the Martial Arts. 8th Duan Molum Pai Kung Fu, 7th Dan Keisatsu Jujitsu."

[diego]

Hi Choy Lay Fut people~

is this a legit Choy Lay Fut Form??

I know there are MANY CLF forms over the 3 main branches so even "flavour" wise?

or is this obvious Bullshido?

Form is called "Ginger Fist"

Basically, the origin of the form was done in the Ginger Fields of China, and the form is actually based off the move where I drop down and throw the dirt or the mud at my opponent. The Actual Name of the Form in Chinese is NG Hum Ni. So, the actual form was named after one of the sifus saw a bird fling mud at a prey bird in a ginger field.

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v224/Wizardsr/?action=view&current=ECinv01.flv

sucks

Haooy New Year

[5thBrother]

wheres my manners...

Hands Diego and every one some festive seasons beers! :D :D

Cheers!! :)

[Shaolinlueb]

Basically, the origin of the form was done in the Ginger Fields of China, and the form is actually based off the move where I drop down and throw the dirt or the mud at my opponent. The Actual Name of the Form in Chinese is NG Hum Ni. So, the actual form was named after one of the sifus saw a bird fling mud at a prey bird in a ginger field.


sounds like someone has been watching too many movies.

[Drake]

I found his stances to be lacking...

[brothernumber9]

"8th Duan Molum Pai" says it all.

[lkfmdc]

Not CLF because it does not exhibit any of the "fist seeds" that define what CLF is

Poorly performed, and the karate gi, karate bowing, etc doesn't help our opinion of him

Content wise, looks like a short hand system, reminds me of some Lung Yihng (Dragon) I have seen in the past

NOT CLF

[hskwarrior]

i tried to be open to the possiblity that possibly this guy may have had some "ELEMENTS" of choy lee fut, but if there ever was any, it was completely stripped bare of it.

However, it does look as if he started his form after the LONG salute of choy lee fut forms. the left and right movements are typical in clf sets.....

but again. outside of the panther fists he threw........there is NO choy lee fut in there at all.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Where does it say that the form was a CLF form??

[mok]

Where does it say that the form was a CLF form??

I don't think it does...

"Ginger fist" is a hand-shape in hakka arts, like Chu Ka SPM... not sure it's a separate set.

The stuff shown does look like southern shorthand, but not sure I can comment on how skilled or unskilled it is.

However it's waaaay too short - that guy spends more time bowing than showing anything. I can't believe it got 1st place in anything.

[fawlung]

From what I could gather via google, it's a combination of systems, karate, and others including "Mo Lum Pai" kung-fu. Apparently Mo Lum Pai is something his teacher created after studying Preying Mantis, Jow Ga, Bak Mei and CLF.

On a side note... what is it with us Americans that we have to combine different cultures and act like it's natural!

"8th Duan Molum Pai".... wtf!

I realize the US is a "melting pot" and all that... but surely there's a better way.

For your viewing pleasure Molum Pai (http://www.molum.org/) Website

Done with my rant now.

[lkfmdc]

:D

"Mo Lum Pai"!

I love it, so close to "no idea system"

:D

[cjurakpt]

mok ga does have a "ginger fist" hand configuration, and what he does could arguably be a derived version of that;

but to me it just looks like kenpo, sorry to say...

[cjurakpt]

:D

"Mo Lum Pai"!

I love it, so close to "no idea system"

:D

I've just inaugurated a new style, "Mo Ji Do"...

[lkfmdc]

I've just inaugurated a new style, "Mo Ji Do"...

and in three generations people will insist it means "the way of the martial finger" :D:eek::D;)

[bigdoing]

My system will be called:
PU-XI-PAI
:)

[sean_stonehart]

Wow... that was more kenpo than kenpo and more kenpo than SD...

[5thBrother]

Where does it say that the form was a CLF form??

"Choi Li Fut Form

I thought I would share some forms. Here is one that I
took 1st place with at the East Coast invitational.


http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v224/Wizardsr/?action=view&current=ECinv01.flv

AS you know that Choi Li Fut is a three family system, Choi, Li and Fut.

The Form was designed from the Leopards Punch or four knuckle punch. It target mostly soft tissue area and it uses very fast double blocking movements throughout the form.

I hope you enjoyed the form.

Basically, the origin of the form was done in the Ginger Fields of China, and the form is actually based off the move where I drop down and throw the dirt or the mud at my opponent. The Actual Name of the Form in Chinese is NG Hum Ni. So, the actual form was named after one of the sifus saw a bird fling mud at a prey bird in a ginger field.


Tim"

didn't look like any CLF i've ever seen bu i'm not CLF so i thought i'd ask the experts :P

thanks for the confirmation guys

[CLFNole]

Ugh, just make it all stop, please.

[cjurakpt]

and in three generations people will insist it means "the way of the martial finger" :D:eek::D;)

yes, the opening salute is rather succinct...

[jigahus]

The form maybe an offshoot of a Shaolin Do form.

[doug maverick]

**** that guy has a black belt and looks like that **** a black belt ain;t what it use to be. even if the form is bull**** at least can look like good well trained bull**** that guy look like he's been training for a month.

[fawlung]

And he's one of the Grand Poobaa Sensei Sigungs...

I could swear after looking at the video that the people behind him are wearing green belts.... not that it matters any.

Although I will have to admit, I've been to competitions where I didn't perform near as well as I had liked to.... ****, I hope nobody taped it :)

[Mano Mano]

Ugh, just make it all stop, please. I couldn't even bring myself to watch the full vid.

[CLFNole]

Mano:

You didn't miss anything believe me. It has nothing to do with kung fu let alone CLF.

[hskwarrior]

and i have to live with the thought that i gave it a chance and watched it twice....hoping to see something recognizable......:(

but alas, we have been duped into watching something that wasn't even choy lee fut.

jedi mind tricks man!!!!!

[Gwa Sow Chop]

Nope not CLF...........
BUT...........

I think it might have been the beginning of the Form Sup Chi (bak hsing) or maybe even the Peng Kuen (hung sing) at one point.

I watched it the first couple of times for chuckles....then all of a sudden, some sequences looked strangely similar in their connection.
Sure, it is mangled beyond belief, and postures and hand formations are changed, but I think I saw a ray of hope. :rolleyes:

This MUST BE THE LOST LINEAGE OF CLF!!!!!

:eek:

Hope you all have a great new year.

Whatever it once was, it no longer is.
Now it's just Bullshido Pai.

[hskwarrior]

actually Kwa Sow Chop......hung sing does that as well.......my earlier post i commented the same as you.:D....both sup ji and ping kuen.

[Drake]

Ugh, just make it all stop, please.

It'll never stop, Sifu L.

NEVER!!!

I'm looking forward to more CLF "three family" forms. Bwaahahahahaha! :)

Let's get some Fut Family love here, guys! *sarcasm*

[hskwarrior]

who does three family clf forms?

[CLFNole]

Frank:

Wouldn't a 3 Family Form be your ultimate act of unity? :p

[hskwarrior]

sure, but whats wrong with that?

[CLFNole]

Nothing wrong with it, just that I don't see it ever happening.

It was kind of a joke.

[hskwarrior]

but what was the joke?

what if i DO produce forms that are combined from all 3 families?

Plus, based on the CLF people that have emailed me, or messaged me (especially from the chan family) telling me they support me promoting a united CHOY LEE FUT.

so i don't get the joke.

[bakxierboxer]

but what was the joke?

what if i DO produce forms that are combined from all 3 families?

Plus, based on the CLF people that have emailed me, or messaged me (especially from the chan family) telling me they support me promoting a united CHOY LEE FUT.

so i don't get the joke.

Nobody's been talking about the 3 branches of CLF.

Aaaahhhhh..... what you guys don't seem to know/fully-appreciate is that CLF is composed of techniques FROM "3 Families",,,, Choy Gar, Lee Gar, Fut Gar and is "aka" (also known as) THE "3-Family Style" by many others in the overall TCMA "community" (such as it is).

By somewhat of the "same token" the Choy/Lee/Hung/Mok/Fut style became most commonly known as "Ng Gar" (Five Families).
"CLF" is not any harder to say than 3-Familes.
CLHMF IS nowhere near as easy to say as 5-Families, so........ "Ng Gar" is seen/heard more often.

[hskwarrior]

actually, there are more people out there supporting my efforts in promoting a united clf.

HAHA.....don't make me produce emails......;)

Now Sam Ga CLF forms will be no different than the forms you see today. except for the fact that these forms would contain elements from all three families. I wouldn't ask anyone to learn it. i would teach it to my students, they will perform them.

so it doesn't matter if people don't support the cause of uniting our families....someone has to start somewhere....and i have. simple as that.

no one needs to talk about Sam Ga CLF..........what would you know about it? it was my idea?!?!?!? lol

[chasincharpchui]

By somewhat of the "same token" the Choy/Lee/Hung/Mok/Fut style became most commonly known as "Ng Gar" (Five Families).



issit me

or has the 5 families really changed from hung/lau/choy/lee/mok to hung/choy/lee/mok/fut?

juss a question

[Drake]

I was referring to the fact that Fut was a reference to Buddha. But I like how Sifu Frank interpreted it more than how I meant it.

[bakxierboxer]

issit me

or has the 5 families really changed from hung/lau/choy/lee/mok to hung/choy/lee/mok/fut?

juss a question

But, still a question.
You can ask Se Ming Ma or figure out some way for me to post a copy of SiFu's business card from the 60s.... not that the card itself it will definitely answer anything.

After all these years, I find "Ng Gar" to be the "best possible designation", since it removes the "liability" for getting all of those names straight.

[CLFNole]

The problem is there are a lot more the 5 family styles but chasin is correct the 5 famous southern family styles are hung, lau, choy, lay & mok.

CLF really only has one connection Lay - Lay Yau San.

It is debatable at best to say CHoy Fooks style was Choy Gar, the Choy in CLF is just to honor him. Fut refers to buddha as in GGM and not specifically Fut Gar.

[hskwarrior]

chan family's fut.......according to their websites.........represent their buddhist and shaolin roots.

The Hung Sing Fut San lineage's "FUT" does refer to Fut Gar as passed down from the GGM.

[Eddie]

a three family form would actually be a cool idea. Kind of like a standardise CLF form (not unlike nanquan), which would work if you use it in a competition type environment.

one would have to employ some of the top representatives of each family to help create the form, else no one would take it seriously enough.

Not a bad idea Frank. But then again, they are all so similar already.

[hskwarrior]

Eddie, thanks for seeing at least for moment seeing it as i do.

I agree, a form that has been blessed, or even created by the heads of all three lineages to form a so called "Standardized" forms would be a good thing. especially for tournaments.

In my opinion, all three branches has different flavors, emphasis, and such......so one form displaying all three essences would be off the hook.

See, i believe, but could be wrong.........all three lineages have Ping Kuen, Kau Da, and Sup Ji.........ping kuen for sure.

These are the forms i was mainly focusing on.

[CLFNole]

I think the idea of a standardized type of form is nice but it definately would have to get the blessing and influence from senior sifus from each line, which in my opinion would eventually lead to some problems due to egos, etc... but in theory it could work. I personally don't see the need for it but I agree it could work. The truth is that we all have the same seeds. So what if combos or theories are different, at the end of the day it is all CLF and that is the beauty of it, each side is individual to some degree and that is what makes each side special. Throw out the number of sets one brance might have over another becuase that really is meaningless, the essence of CLF is what is important and promoting that is what matters.

Ultimately though the unity of the CLF family will not be accomplished through the creation of a set or sets. Unith will start when the fighting and arguing stops and everyone accepts each other for what they are. History will never be agreed upon so that would have to be left out of the equation (a sticking point IMHO) or at least accepted by every side that different versions exist. IF everyone could look forward for CLF instead of always looking back Unity might be a reachable goal but until that happens it will just be another year of the same old same old.

[hskwarrior]

yeah, we have the same seeds, but each branch has its own contributions that the others may not have.......

still, a form is just a form.........its just one little aspect of martial arts........so it shouldn't become a big deal.......it's when the ego's kick in is when we all have issues.

the way i see it, chan family would be responsible for acknowledging and dealing with their own material, hung sing will do the same and so will buk sing...... so instead of having three to 4 different ping kuens........in a standardized manner, i feel it would be better to have one standardized and universally accepted version of the main staple forms. Now, to be clear, a chan family member wouldn't have a voice when it came to how the other branches do their forms......

but for competition, yeah, if CLF is vs. CLF in competition, do the standardized clf forms to see who is actually of higher skill doing the same form.

[CLFNole]

For competition purposes it really doesn't take people doing the same form to see who is better (at performing a set). Standardization of forms is really only good for one thing at that is just a pure competition concept such as the Olympics, otherwise it is just the creation of another set and CLF has too many to begin with.

[hskwarrior]

Yeah CLF has too many forms as it is.......

Sad thing is that no one wants to learn the others material.......hung sing won't go to chan family, vice versa, same goes for buk sing.

UNLESS!!!!! people were open minded enough to learn all three lineages and promote ONE united CLF........

CHOY LEE FUT is still very clannish............so the fact that CLF has too many sets as it is.......that has no bearing on what each lineage has to teach. Most lineages want to keep their CLF strictly from THEM and THEM alone.......and don't want to go outside their families to get more. so in saying that more clf gets created whether we like it or not. its all about staying pure to what you do.

in a more united CHOY LEE FUT we'd have somewhere close if not over about 500 forms.......but as it is, the way people think will keep CLF students segrated from the entire CLF curriculum. in saying that i mean if a hung sing man went to learn Chan Family Choy Lee Fut he's considered a trader.....or maybe vice versa........

it would be a trip to have a ONE complete up to date list of EVERY SINGLE CLF FORM-be it traditional or modern. I'd like to see what the numbers would be.

But Then, in a standardized type of CLF, I'm sure the number for forms would dramtically drop based on elimination of repetitive techniques or sections. I am one for eliminating things that are repeated too much or we say "we have the same stuff in OUR forms"

[5thBrother]

regarding the original alledged CLF form - Tim white

(although i am enjoying the parralle discussion on a combined clf form which i think would be cool .. kinda like the combined taiji comp. form i guess ... so hope that continues - what would u say are distingushing characteristics unique only to each of the 3 branches? if any?)

anyways regarding original question:

on being questioned about the form:

"Dude, are you for real? What branch of Choy Lay Fut is that supposed to be from? (eg. Buk Sing, Hung Sing, Hung Xiong). Who is your CLF Sifu? and he's Sifu?"

the reply:

"Sir,

It is my understanding that you have background in Choi li Fut...Congratulations on you education.

Just to clarify some issues dealing with the form.

1. To be exact I am not sure what region or family system that form was taken from. I learned that form 30 years ago.

2. My Sifu is Tak Chung Wong, who was a Sr. Disciple of H. B. Un (Deceased) and NG Yiu ,Hong Kong Pak Mei Federation

3. My Sifu learned the form form H.B. Un and passed it down. Now my Sifu was not big on the academics. So some history of the forms we teach are not as critical as you may think.

However, I would like to thank you for your inquirey. No one has ever questioned it before...

As to am I for Real, I am. I deal with violent people every day. Forms are my stress relief and believe me I am for real.


Tim"

Part of me thinks this is BS ... but i guess i can see it.. a CLF form picked up by one of the teachers and becoming bak mei influenced choy lay fut form.... but then i'd poor bak mei also..

h.b Un and ng yiu are famous names but has anyone heard of Tak Chung Wong?

(note: "are you for real" is aussie for like "are u kidding/joking!?"

[fawlung]

For Tim/5th Brother

The way you performed this set in the video.... is that the way you were taught the form by your kung-fu teacher??

[5thBrother]

I (5thBrother) am NOT Tim .. just to be clear.

and yes Tim claims this is the way he "learnt the form from a Tak Chung Wong (who was a Sr. Disciple of H. B. Un (Deceased) and NG Yiu ,Hong Kong Pak Mei Federation)"


Thanks

[Shaolindynasty]

that i mean if a hung sing man went to learn Chan Family Choy Lee Fut he's considered a trader

Depends on the motive. Most CLF sifus are friends and have no problem exchanging. For instance a LKH CLF student took one of my sifus seminars at taiji legacy, then the next day they helped us train lion dance.

Now if I start with my sifu then switch at a later date because I am promised some kind of "instructor certification" or "finacial benifit" from someone else that's a different story.

[Pak Mei Man]

The form is Nie Chi something and means Swallow carring the mud or something to that effect. I'm not sure what family it's from. It was taught to Wong Tak Chun by H.B. Un who practiced more than just straight Pak Mei. He was also well versed in several other styles. Wong Tak Chun was student of H.B. Un, Yui Ng, and several others. I've seen the pics H.B. Un and the certification from Yui Ng. Never met him but I know he's for real. Most Pak Mei sifu you'll never here about.

[TenTigers]

HB Un is well known. After looking at it a second time, I can see some Bak Mei-isms in it, but it is still butchered beyond belief. Too much bad kempo influence.
If the practitioner quit his system and imersed himself in Bak Mei, after understanding the system, its form, structure, theories,etc. He might be able to put that form back to its original state. A worthwhile endeavor indeed. (if you get my drift)

[Satori Science]

Depends on the motive. Most CLF sifus are friends and have no problem exchanging. For instance a LKH CLF student took one of my sifus seminars at taiji legacy, then the next day they helped us train lion dance.

Now if I start with my sifu then switch at a later date because I am promised some kind of "instructor certification" or "finacial benifit" from someone else that's a different story.

Exactly,
most of the family politics these days are online. I have friends and mentors who teach hung sing chan fam, hung ga, jow ga and praying manits. I spent the last year traveling and training with different sifus from all over the continent. My sifu supported it 100% and i'v brought home everything i learned and used it to make my take on CLF better. It also made me a way better instructor and a lot humbler.

true there were/are still family politics. but these days those have more to do with personalities and money than anything related to training.

[IronWeasel]

BTW the performer is Paul White "Here is one [above form] that I
took 1st place with at the East Coast invitational.






That form took first place?!?!?!?

[dc_jowga]

i dont know, but the GI said it all...

[Steeeve]

Alway be curious of this guy who teach more of one style.......:)so much time for training.....ARE YOU SERIOUS

probably they dont work and don t pay their tax....WE PAID IT FOR US...

and they do money with YOU....Dont be stupid

Sttteeve

[IronWeasel]

and they do money with YOU....Dont be stupid





That's right...

They do money with you.

[Infrazael]

This thread hurts my *****.