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ninja turtle
04-05-2001, 11:55 PM
Are new born children, free of prejudice, free of discrimination, enlightened? Do babies see things how they truly are? They do not seem to have aquired the expression of negative emotions, yet. They do not have attachments(save for their parents), that I have seen, because they have not been taught "value", or any of the aggregates of capitalism or other material related affairs.
They seem more real, as people- even when it comes to their imagination. Free to be themselves, free to **** in their pants, free to express themselves in anyway they can.
Are babies(not young children- but, infants and maybe a bit older) enlightened? Or are they just closer to being the animals that all humans are? How would one know for sure, either way?

Eight_Triagram_Boxer
04-06-2001, 12:19 AM
Babies are a bit more pure than an older human, yet they are not enlightened. If they were, why would they be un-enlightened as they grew older? Enlightenment isn't a brief state of mind. Also, babies have karma to live out from their past lives. As far as attachments are concerned, as you mentioned parents...any attachment is attachment. There are no exceptions.

~ETB

Budokan
04-06-2001, 07:10 AM
No, they aren't enlightened as we think of the word. But I do believe they view the world in a completely different and holistic way which we as adults lose as we mature. Unfortunately.

As for as not having atttachments, try telling my 12-month old that about his stuffed Pooh bear!

K. Mark Hoover

joedoe
04-06-2001, 10:30 AM
I think babies are still able to tap into some of the human 'powers' that we forget as we grow up, and only few find their way back to developing that (like psychics etc).

Just my hippy $0.02 worth.

Guns don't kill people, I kill people

ninja turtle
04-07-2001, 06:22 PM
Thanks.

mad taoist
04-11-2001, 05:12 PM
I think children are born free of prejudice and discrimination. They are too naive (unlearned) to form such judgements.

As for being enlightened, they are less 'corrupt' as they are much more naive and fresher to this world than 'we' are -- which does not make them more enlightened. Just less corrupt and more easily enlightened then a corrupted person.

Tis my hippy $0.02 :)

'If we do not go within, we go without'.

Destrous9
04-20-2001, 02:56 AM
I think the development of a baby into an adult can provide many lessons.

We all start with an intense ability to learn, an open mind, and simple, basic thought. Getting back to purity in lifestyle is a key life issue for me.

"Deep down inside of all of us is the power to accomplish what we want to, if we'll just stop looking elsewhere."

sifuskafar
04-28-2001, 03:42 AM
Your comments come from an unwise disposition.

Look to the child for the wisdom of the Tao.
Become nothing and crush the nothingness.
To say a child has not enlightenment robs you of your own buddhahood.


Sifu

Eight_Triagram_Boxer
04-28-2001, 06:59 PM
First off...I can't respect anyone who names themself "sifu" something. Sifu is not a self given title. If one chooses to call you a sifu fine but to call yourself one is egotistical and vain. I don't know how you can expect to get any kind of recognition with a name like that. Secondly, try speaking in normal language, you won't look so stupid and fake. Why are you trying to sound "intelligent" with this ridiculous way of writing. Lastly, your message is just flat out wrong. Why don't you go ask a monk? Thanks for your time...

~ETB

origenx
04-30-2001, 07:49 PM
Actually, how do you know a baby is "free of prejudice, free of discrimination, enlightened?" Do they really lack such biases, or just the ability to express such biases? Do you know if a baby is gay or straight? Do you know what a plant or animal really feels inside? Who really knows for sure?

But don't worry, I'm sure the gov is spending millions of dollars right now to study such vital questions...

denali
05-04-2001, 12:31 AM
Babies have zero knowledge.. Absolutely everything is new to them.
They don't have the ability to be biased, but they also don't have the ability to be not biased.
Their cup is empty you might say..
I think it's ridiculous to think that babies are enlightened. . The word enlightened seems to indicate a past..that they were not elightened before. They were nothing before so they can't be enlightened.
It's all backwards man!

joedoe
05-04-2001, 12:28 PM
How do you know babies are devoid of knowledge? They may be devoid of human experience, but they may be full of knowledge in a different way. Some spiritualists believe that babies know a lot about their past lives etc.

-------------------------------------
You have no chance to survive - make your time.

sifuskafar
05-04-2001, 04:06 PM
Becoming a master is earned not gained. Identifying who you are is appropriate not vain.
Recognition is irrelevant. Truth is relevant.
Talking about enlightenment is not enlightenment. Sounds fake and stupid. Ask a baby not a monk.

Best Wishes

Sifu

Eight_Triagram_Boxer
05-05-2001, 12:09 AM
Skafar,
Sifu does not mean master...go get a dictionary. You need a lesson in ego management! LoL. I'm done talking to you but thanks for the laugh!
~ETB

joedoe
05-06-2001, 02:20 AM
Do you ever speak in normal language, or are you actually Yoda?

-------------------------------------
You have no chance to survive - make your time.

Wyvern_Beta
05-06-2001, 05:40 AM
Not even the KFO message boards are safe from Zero Wing.

Oh well, I am far too weak to fight the tide.

What you say!?

origenx
05-07-2001, 07:58 PM
denali - really? So we're totally blank slates when we're first born?

Then let me ask you this - does a mango seed have a choice what kind of tree it will one day grow up to be? What about a human embryo?

Do babies truly show emptiness, or just unexpressed potential?

denali
05-11-2001, 09:21 PM
I think they are blank slates in a way.

A mango seed will grow up to be a mango tree.

A human embryo will grow up to be a human.

Do you really believe that as we age, we somehow grow out of enlightenment?
If enlightenment is lost so easily, by every individual, what value does it have or what purpose does it serve?

I don't see enlightenment as helpless and dependent, devoid of knowledge.

origenx
05-13-2001, 07:49 PM
Denali - Well, if "a human embryo will grow up to be a human," invariably, than how can a human embryo/baby be "a blank slate?"

"Do you really believe that as we age, we somehow grow out of enlightenment?
If enlightenment is lost so easily, by every individual, what value does it have or what purpose does it serve?"

Exactly - that is why I question how babies can be enlightened. I think this theory gets blown out of the water as the baby grows and begins to express itself more and more. And it becomes quickly apparent that its behavior is not that of an "enlightened" being.

denali
05-13-2001, 11:43 PM
Come on.. you're smarter than that.

Have you ever seen a human embryo grow up to be an elephant? Me neither.

By saying blank slate I mean.. opinions, habits, thought patterns, behaviour.. obviously the species is not blank.

origenx
05-14-2001, 07:38 PM
denali - but why should our physical forms be pre-set and not blank slates as well? Or are our personalities actually not blank slates as you so assume?

dwid
05-14-2001, 08:02 PM
From a biological standpoint, the reason why h0mo sapiens sapiens has been so successful adapting to various climates has been largely due to the fact that we have very little in the way of instinctual knowledge. This is why humans cannot live without the care of adults until they have been around for quite a while. There is a very clear correlation in the animal world between adaptability and amount of time spent dependent on others for survival. While it is true that certain personality predispositions (vulnerability to some psychological disorders, etc...) have been proven to be genetic in origin (through studies of identical twins raised by separate families), this is a far cry from indicating that enlightenment is an inheritable trait. Unless, of course, you're talking reincarnation (if you believe in that sort of thing), in which case I guess genetic science goes out the window.

Further, there are so many schools of thought on what enlightenment means, that unless we're all on the same page about it, it can't really be meaningfully debated anyway. For example, some schools of thought see enlightenment as something that can come and go, while others would say it isn't really enlightenment if it's fleeting. The prajna paramita heart sutra says that we're already enlightened - not just babies.... everybody. We just live in perpetual denial of it.

Just my 2 cents.
_________________________________________
The way of the samurai is in desperateness. Ten men or more cannot kill such a man. Common sense will not accomplish great things. Simply become insane and desperate. - Hagakure

o
05-14-2001, 11:52 PM
I too have seen the differences of definition of enlightenment among the various eastern traditions including Jainism, Daoism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Advaita Vedanta, Brahmanism, or another relevant one that I missed and all the sub-branches of each of these major religions. Do you know of any reputable sources which examine and compare (or at least present) the various definitions of enlightenment of these religions? Or even more expansive: Do you know of sources which look at the entire practices and philosophies of these religions?

How can one sort through all of the similarities and differences of these systems and come to any meaningful conclusion? Are there more than one path that lead to the same enlightenment? Are some paths better than others? Or would the best path depend on any given individual? Are there different levels of enlightenment? Which sources go into these topics?

Thanks for any input.

There are only two rules to the road: begin and continue.
--Christmas Humphrey

dwid
05-15-2001, 04:17 PM
The path depends entirely on the individual. Even if there was only one true definition of enlightenment, we are all on our own path to it. Partly, I think it is our linguistic and cognitive tools that get things screwed up. Perhaps there is but one path, but there are a whole lot of different ways to conceptualize it. I try not to get tied up in dogma. I think its better to just walk the path and let things unfold as they may. It's hard enough to be present in the moment when you don't worry about where you're going.

Also, we have what could be called an advantage or a disadvantage, depending on how you look at it. When these systems of thought were developed, each person was only likely to be exposed to one of them, so there was no cognitive dissonance over conflicting philosophies. Everyone had a single framework with which to interpret experience. Now, we can sort of pick and choose what seems to make sense to us, but that also presents doubts.

_________________________________________
The way of the samurai is in desperateness. Ten men or more cannot kill such a man. Common sense will not accomplish great things. Simply become insane and desperate. - Hagakure

origenx
05-15-2001, 08:10 PM
dwid - actually, I've noticed that people often exhibit signs of their adult personalities (aggressive, shy, musical, risk-taking, etc.) from even toddler age, before they've really had any interaction with others or media.

As for enlightenment, I don't think any of us will really know what it is until we experience it ourselves, but here's my take:

The more unenlightened someone is, the bigger their gap between perception and reality, their being and reality. Spiritual disciplines all seek to narrow and eventually close this gap, until perception and reality finally intersect and they consciously merge with the universe (and not just intellectually, but experientially). When separation falls to unity, that is enlightenment.

Hence, "there is no spoon." - The Matri

dwid
05-15-2001, 09:00 PM
quote: actually, I've noticed that people often exhibit signs of their adult personalities (aggressive, shy, musical, risk-taking, etc.) from even toddler age, before they've really had any interaction with others or media.

As I stated in my original post, I agree that there are some basic elements of personality that are genetically inheritable, but few of these are immutable at birth, and none would appear to have anything to do with one's capacity for enlightenment.

_________________________________________
The way of the samurai is in desperateness. Ten men or more cannot kill such a man. Common sense will not accomplish great things. Simply become insane and desperate. - Hagakure

prana
05-16-2001, 06:39 AM
Babies are the product of attachment to the earth element during the bardo of becoming. This process leads to the baby in the womb who undergoes extreme challenges and then being borned. Prior to this, the baby attaches itself to hate and like, preferring mother over father to becoming itself the opposite sex. Taking the first taste of the air element into a lung filled with water. This is extreme suffering.

The baby's consciousness is rather fresh, as a new flame burning on a candle, but how can we say that the flame was englightened.

Humans are borned with certain instincts and as little babies all other "judgemental" thoughts are learnt from the many gates such as eyes and ears, skin and smell.... forming further conditioning and attachment to the ground elements holding the other 3 together.

What is occupying that corpse you call 'I' ?

origenx
05-17-2001, 08:06 PM
That was deep I liked that prana. That's what I'm talkin about!

MaFuYee
05-17-2001, 09:22 PM
this is a very good question; i have also asked myself this; and although many may disagree with me, (which is ok) the conclusion i came up with is that infants are not enlightened. (it seems obvious to me.) rather, when the classics talk about children, they are speaking metaphorically, rather than litterally. - they are talking about the ideals that are represented by the chid, as a symbol.

infants DO have predjudices. - the infant prefers pleasure over pain, it's mother's milk over hunger, warmth and security over cold isolation, etc. etc. etc.

"Computer games don't affect kids; I mean if Pac-Man affected us as kids, we'd all be running around in darkened rooms, munching magic pills and listening to repetitive electronic music."
- Kristian Wilson, Nintendo, Inc, 1989

Vash
09-27-2003, 07:46 PM
babies are of the devil.

TaiChiBob
09-29-2003, 04:34 AM
Greetings..

"we are traveling to where we have always been.. from ignorance to enlightenment.. (awareness is the vehicle)"..

Conceptually, we each differ in our beliefs of enlightenment.. once there, the concept is invalid.. Babies, lacking the formalized concepts, lacking the social conditioning, and seeing life as a continuous new experience.. show us what's beyond the concepts of enlightenment.. they are not troubled with some ritualistic standard of enlightment, they simply show the possibilities..

Be well..

Vash
09-29-2003, 08:28 AM
Wrong. Babies lole us into a false sense of security, then they turn into mean-spirited monsters and drop smelly stuff all over.

Kristoffer
09-29-2003, 09:24 AM
That was really deep Vash

Vash
09-29-2003, 11:10 AM
Dang straight. Deep like a puddle.

Or something.

Kristoffer
09-30-2003, 01:41 AM
Babies are the product of attachment to the earth element during the bardo of becoming. This process leads to the baby in the womb who undergoes extreme challenges and then being borned. Prior to this, the baby attaches itself to hate and like, preferring mother over father to becoming itself the opposite sex. Taking the first taste of the air element into a lung filled with water. This is extreme suffering.

dezhen2001
09-30-2003, 04:44 AM
Originally posted by
Are new born children, free of prejudice, free of discrimination, enlightened? Do babies see things how they truly are? They do not seem to have aquired the expression of negative emotions, yet. They do not have attachments(save for their parents), that I have seen, because they have not been taught "value", or any of the aggregates of capitalism or other material related affairs.
They seem more real, as people- even when it comes to their imagination. Free to be themselves, free to **** in their pants, free to express themselves in anyway they can.
Are babies(not young children- but, infants and maybe a bit older) enlightened? Or are they just closer to being the animals that all humans are? How would one know for sure, either way?
in Islam we say babies are born with "fitrah" which means natural intuition. Its not enlightenment or knowledge per se, but just more of a connection at a base level to everything.

dawood