The end of tradition?

[Jeffoo]

As many of you know, I have trained in and taught both modern wushu and traditional kung fu. My background in traditional kung fu was very very traditional as my teacher was in his 70's when he began teaching me. While we probably were not as formal as many other schools, especially because I drove him around, helped him take his medications, etc. The atmosphere in the school was very traditional. We learned the traditional methods in forms and fighting.

What I mean by traditional is we were expected to know forms, applications of the forms (on multiple levels), Qi Gong, bag conditioning, etc. When students were taught new forms, they were expected to train on their new stuff on their own after they were taught. Each student had a somewhat individual path the teacher gave them. There was respect to the teachers and from the teachers from all of the students. There was school loyalty. There was Yum Cha after classes. Tournaments weren't only about medal count. There were friendships (as in the case of Eagle Claw and Mantis going back generations) between schools. There were even rivalries (again, some going back generations) which made competition even more interesting.

In general there was excitement and enthusiasm to go to class...to go to tournaments as a team and to represent your kung fu style no matter where you were. Kung fu men were respected in society (especially Chinese society)

Is this lost in today's age? As funny as it sounds...maybe the traditions peaked and began a rapid decline in the mid 1990's. Maybe with the aging and dying out of that first generation of kung fu masters to come to the US, these traditions are being lost.

Why do I say this? I take an example from a recent demo I did with my daughters. This demo was done for the Association of Chinese Americans and in attendance were about 800 Chinese people of all ages. We demonstrated traditional mantis and eagle claw. One thing I noticed about Chinese kids is they all had their cellphones and they were almost always in the lobby area clowning around and not paying attention to the rest of the program(the kung fu was a small part of it). When I would be in the lobby, I'd ask these kids.."hey want to do kung fu?" almost universally the answer was "nah, that's too hard" and they'd go back to talking on their phones or to their video games. When the kung fu part of the demo actually started, one older lady rounded up all the kids and made them watch. There seemed to be genuine disinterest on many of their faces and after the demo most of them went out to screw around in the lobby. By contrast, the older Chinese loved it and were very impressed.

Now, with classes going on, many of them don't seem to appreciate the fact that traditions are in place for a variety of reasons and even less of them (almost all students) feel the need to work at it. They don't want to learn forms that look like the last one they learned, even though much of traditional kung fu has that. I remember when I got to learn lion dance how thrilled I was and what an honor it was to learn it. Nowadays asking someone to learn lion dance is like asking them to take on extra work it seems. As in any other class, there are the few that hold on to and want to learn more of the traditions, but that group is a lot smaller than I remember it being when I was training.

Has anyone else noticed this? If so, what do you feel the main root cause is? I have the following thoughts on it.

1) We live in a disposable society. Nothing is long term anymore. From our appliances to our marriages, everything can be used, abused and replaced as needed at our whims.

2) We live in McSociety. Everything, especially since the advent of the internet is available right now to satisfy your desires (carnal, informational, etc.)with no longer than a 5 second wait. People can't wait in line for 30 seconds anymore, let alone wait a couple years to see the results of a good kung fu program.

3) The lack of a "reason" to do kung fu. Most people seem to want to "do something" with their style. The older notions of self-defense seem less important today than ever (when's the last time you needed to use it?). The lack of competitions to show off your style contribute to it. I remember we used to have at least one tournament a month we could go to. Nevermind it was dominated by Karate and TKD, we could go show our style and "do something" with what we learned. Then, yearly was the big national tournament (NACMAAF, later USAWKF) that you trained for and looked forward to all year long. These opportunities have nearly evaporated.

4) Some of the reason I think are faults within the traditional system itself as well . Those can be rigidness of the teachers, the incredibly long training time, the mass of information to be absorbed, lack of ranking to show progress and so students can have something to reach for, the need for some teachers to feel they have some empire to protect, the tradition where the teacher is almost worshiped.

So as people who love their traditions and who want to see the growth of good solid kung fu, how can we overcome these obstacles? Is it even possible (or worth it) to try and retain these traditions, or (for the sake of survival) should we all become MMA teachers for fighting with a blend of forms that are more wushu oriented?

[David Jamieson]

I don't think putting an end to obsolescent thinking is bad.

[Scott R. Brown]

But neither is continuing a cherished tradition!:)

[mawali]

That is how society progresses and traditional teaching rarely did anything to uplift values associated with top notch training! Too much 'secret', 'special' training so why bother with dubious methods that will instill false values.

We are in the Mc Kungfu age so just enjoy what is useful and drop the rest and sadly traditional kungfu will go the way of the 'lost' skills but it will surely reformat itself and has done so into the acrobat and performance oriented wushu we see today! All is not lost, totally.
I am a former competitor and this has been happenning for the past 25 years.
My recent performance was at the USA Wushu 2007 Tournament and I was completerly disillusioned with some of the so called unbiased judging but it was a nice tournament! Why do I bother? I like it and it is fun.

[cranky old man]

those changes started happening over 35 years ago not 25 . particularly after the b.l. craze. l am in my 70s and saw it coming . l was telling my students years ago who are now in there 50s about the mcdonalds attitude. its not just prevalent in martial arts but everything in the western world in particular. l still teach in the old way and have decided that if they want sport they can go elsewhere. l have over the decades seen these changes and l decided if l had even 5 good students whod stick it out they will one day teach 5 and so on thats fine. l have also seen many flavours of the day come and go so it doesnt worry me that traditional arts will not be around . my students will and do work to improve what they do. and the jack of all trades and master of nones will pass like the do do bird into oblivion . tradition need not mean to not improve ones art . we were haveing these discussions before there was any internet and you are haveing them now so thats not changed . and we are still here you just may have trouble finding us.

[lkfmdc]

I hate to break it to you, but the typical Chinese youth today, if he is interested in martial arts at all, is interested in Muay Thai, San Da, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, and Mixed Martial Arts. I have TONS of Chinese in my school, also a healthy dose of Koreans and Japanese.....

Chinese martial arts, like a lot of traditional martial arts, simply don't have resonance with the youth today. TMA has become forms heavy, and flowery, and bogged down in mysticism and crap. TCMA has been castrated and emasculated. What was once the venue of "tough guys" (many gangsters, Diego will be thrilled to now read this thread) and very much about fighting has become the "art of scholars and monks" for "health", "enlightenment" and granola eating :rolleyes:

What's worse, is how many people supposedly doing TCMA have NO IDEA where it came from, what it was like in the old days and simply buy into the "feel good" PC crap being passed off as TCMA

[MightyB]

Mantis = 16 styles and 1 overarching theory or a blend of 17 styles
Eagle Claw = The Joint Locks of Yue Fe mixed with the "wushu" of its day- Tan Tui
Choy Le Fut = Named after 3 masters...

It's evolution baby- always been that way- it'll continue like this forever. We made a new name for it- MMA.

The difference between now and then is people lack the patience to master a style before they mix. You gotta master 1 as a base before you can change things otherwise there's no substance. (Even Ilkmfdzqu?Z mastered a style to set the basis for his beliefs)

[hskwarrior]

in my area, its the lion dancing that keeps the chinese in the martial arts.

we have white crane, and yau gung mun, both of whom are world champion lion groups.

the chinese out here are more interested in learning how to use their gung fu from reputable sifu's. in the mma type schools i see alot of ABC"S, but the ones from china still go for the traditional stuff.

i say, keep the traditional. don't EVER get rid of it.

MMA is a sport, and who knows how long it will last?

Traditional gung fu has existed for thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands of years.......did i just overexaggerate that? LOL.

its people who love traditional who will help traditional survive.

[hskwarrior]

and don't forget, shaolin is also one of the older MMA type systems. nothing original comes from shaolin except for shaolin-nized martial arts from other styles.

i would love to see a choy lee fut version of shaolin.

and yes, if you want to survive, you must evolve...........nothing wrong with that.

if i created a form today, it would be a modern expression of what came before. in other words, i evolved my gung fu by creating something based on my own understanding of my system.

[sanjuro_ronin]

To me, the tradition of any fighting art is fighting, and being the best fighters one can be at any stage of the game.
To go against that is going against tradition.

[hskwarrior]

Martial Art = Art Of War=very True!

War = Fighting

In The Gangster World What Happens? Fighting!

Who Are The Better Teachers At Teaching You How To Fight?

Gangsters!!!!!! Hahahaha!

I Love My Lineage!!!!!!

[diego]

I hate to break it to you, but the typical Chinese youth today, if he is interested in martial arts at all, is interested in Muay Thai, San Da, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, and Mixed Martial Arts. I have TONS of Chinese in my school, also a healthy dose of Koreans and Japanese.....

Chinese martial arts, like a lot of traditional martial arts, simply don't have resonance with the youth today. TMA has become forms heavy, and flowery, and bogged down in mysticism and crap. TCMA has been castrated and emasculated. What was once the venue of "tough guys" (many gangsters, Diego will be thrilled to now read this thread) and very much about fighting has become the "art of scholars and monks" for "health", "enlightenment" and granola eating :rolleyes:

What's worse, is how many people supposedly doing TCMA have NO IDEA where it came from, what it was like in the old days and simply buy into the "feel good" PC crap being passed off as TCMA
you're weird and think about me way too much...i'm just trying to find out about the guy who taught my teacher...suppossedly he was gangster and no one seems to know anything about him...doesn't take a fisherman to tell you that's fishy

**** are you doing and why are you mentioning me?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Martial Art = Art Of War=very True!

War = Fighting

In The Gangster World What Happens? Fighting!

Who Are The Better Teachers At Teaching You How To Fight?

Gangsters!!!!!! Hahahaha!

I Love My Lineage!!!!!!

Actually, trained fighters are the bets teachers, they fight and have fought other trained fighters, not some guys on the street with unknown skill level.

[diego]

Actually, trained fighters are the bets teachers, they fight and have fought other trained fighters, not some guys on the street with unknown skill level.

ah but there are no trained kung fu fighters, lol what is a kung fu fighter?

[diego]

i'll take clf over judo anywday...clf has weapon sets, judo has joint locks...clf fighter vs judo fighter= clf guy just cut off judo mans hand before he grabs it:D

what is a kung fu fighter?

[sanjuro_ronin]

ah but there are no trained kung fu fighters, lol what is a kung fu fighter?

very good question, we all know what a MT fighter is, a Judoka, a boxer, etc, what is a kung fu fighter?

[zhangxihuan]

eh.. nowadays everyone is lazy.. race aside..

there are lot of Chinese kids ( i know them personally) who dont care about anything.. kung fu, scholastics, what have you.They are just becoming more and more americanized (in a bad way). their chinese sucks, they live with their "significant others" rather than preserving their family name or honor.. its just becoming more common as people get out of their enclaves.....

but as for MA...

well doesn't matter where you go.. traditional martials have gone down the tube- and moreso in certain cities than others (such as LA vs New York) LA is in the trash heap except for like 2 schools- that one run by Shaolin monks up in Rosemead, and Shaolin lomita.. Forget the rest.. I visited them and well- they suck..

even a lot of wushu schools get kids who don't want to practice. (acutally modern wushu training -if done properly is brutal, and no one wants to do it) wushu schools dont have much attendance either. (for comparison)..


I think the critics of traditional martial arts are correct though in some respects- like when are you ever really going to use it?
Someone could just come up and tase the crap out of you.. or shoot you (like in East LA or Compton) and when are you really going to whip out a shuang dao and kick someone's ass???

its like Indiana Jones where the guy gets the sword out and Indy just shoots him..


however its also a culture thing as well (as you pointed out).. people are simply in a fast food world. wushu/kung fu/ what have you takes a long time to get good at, and you have to be going to a good school..

I think a lot of teachers also damage the art as well. They have big heads, crazed and frenzied about how cool it is that they hurt someone once, talk like gurus, divert their mythical powers to sentient beings, act macho, and some go as far as disrespecting students....

how then can the art survive?

Although i think several grandmasters are no better. They leave their systems to stupid westerners who have no moral code or honor, as IF it will survive some whack job's inheritance. Then no one wants to learn, or go.

There is also the problem of teachers who are in it for the money. The multiple belts, tests that you have to repeat a million times, teachers that instill fear in students over messing up (met several of those). Even some schools where the rivalry is so over the top they beat people up (attended one of those).

Or the "wait 20 years and I'll show you what this move is for" - my favorite line. "we don't teach that until you are a 3rd degree black belt." If I asked you should show me as a paying customer who has questions.


The more weirdos who teach the less likely it is the art itself will survive (as a whole). And the more people who are born who just get what they want immediately the more likely all Chinese martial arts will go by the wayside (wushu/traditional what have you)...

[bawang]

i agree 100% zhangxihuan you said evrything i was thinking.

[golden arhat]

I hate to break it to you, but the typical Chinese youth today, if he is interested in martial arts at all, is interested in Muay Thai, San Da, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, and Mixed Martial Arts. I have TONS of Chinese in my school, also a healthy dose of Koreans and Japanese.....



yeah i totally agree


think about it


what is exotic and exciting for your average western napoleon dynamite type

to a chinese kid would simply be something they have had within there culture for ages
its something theyre grandparents may have done


u never see westerners showing the same passion they show for kung fu
for western fencing on such a huge scale do you

[golden arhat]

i'll take clf over judo anywday...clf has weapon sets, judo has joint locks...clf fighter vs judo fighter= clf guy just cut off judo mans hand before he grabs it:D

what is a kung fu fighter?

yeah but it doesnt look like most of the weapon sets teach you much anyway

so a judo guy would probably be just as proficient with a blade or spear as you

[hskwarrior]

Actually, My Students Have Gotten The Chance To Use Their Gung Fu More Than Once Since They've Been With Me. I Mean All My Students.

I Can't Stand It When People Say You Can Get Shot, Tazed, Stoned, Or What Ever........

He Can Have A Gun, So Can I. He Can Have A Tazer So Can I. Etc. Etc.

The Reality Of It Is, If You Don't Know How To Effectively Use Your Gung Fu In An All Out Battle, Then What Are You Learning?

Sport Fighting Is Good. But Not All Of Us Are Athletes. But Some Of Us Could Be Great Street Fighters.

Now, If You Don't Think A Good Street Fighter Would Kick Your Arse Even If Your Are A Black Belt, Then You Need To Give Your Black Belt Back. I Say This Will All Confidence.........i've Seen It........

But If You Got A Good Street Fighter Who Knows How To Fight With His Gung Fu, I Think You Have A Better Street Fighter.

For As I've Said, Not All Of Us Are Athletes, Or Want To Fight For Sport. I've Known Third Degree Black Belts Who've Taken One Class At My School And Realized They Don't Know How To Use It On The Streets.
Waste Of Time In My Opinion.

I Do Think There Should Be A Balance Of Martial Art, And Martial Reality.

[hskwarrior]

Goldan Arhat.......

With An Open Mind, You'd See That Within A Weapon Form, Is A Hidden Hand Form. A Hand Form That Would Contain More Techniques Than Some Of Your Other Hand Forms Would Have.

I Know Its Not All About Forms, But One Should Always See 'everything' In Gung Fu.

KNIFE OR SPEAR OR ANY TYPE OF WEAPON TRAINING DEPENDS ON HOW REAL YOU TRAIN.

IF YOU TRAIN LIKE PANSIES, YOU WILL BE JUST THAT.

FOR EXAMPLE, WHEN I TRAINED IN ESCRIMA, WE USED REAL LIVE BLADES. WHY? FOR THE BEST TRAINING POSSIBLE. A LIVE BLADE WILL FORCE YOU TO RESPECT IT. OR YOU WILL BLEED ALL OVER THE PLACE.

POINT BEING, I MADE A MISTAKE ONCE WHEN MY ESCRIMA TEACHER LAUNCHED AN OVER HEAD ATTACK WITH A MACHETE AIMED AT MY HEAD. I PHUCKED UP AND GRABBED HIS HAND TO STOP HIS ATTACK AND ALL HE DID WAS PULL BACKWARDS AND SLICED MY EFFIN HAND. I STARTED BLEEDING ALL OVER.

YOU THINK I WOULD EVER MAKE THAT MISTAKE AGAIN?

[diego]

yeah but it doesnt look like most of the weapon sets teach you much anyway

so a judo guy would probably be just as proficient with a blade or spear as you

but then he is not judo fighting...:) when did he spar with blades?!??!? ****it

[MightyB]

Mantis = 16 styles and 1 overarching theory or a blend of 17 styles
Eagle Claw = The Joint Locks of Yue Fe mixed with the "wushu" of its day- Tan Tui
Choy Le Fut = Named after 3 masters...

Oops- I meant Fānziquán, not Tan Tui- The Joint Locks of Yue Fe mixed with Fānziquán


Besides- playing video games with kung fu moves are more fun than actually learning kung fu :D

[David Jamieson]

everyone i train regularly with is chinese or half chinese.

we do kungfu and cross training.

edit: sorry, one dude is portugese, but he's been laid up for a while after he busted his knee.

[Jeffoo]

OK great inputs on this issue. Here's a Hypothetical for everyone.

I think most of us are in agreement that in order to compete for market share, etc. with TKD, etc. that Kung Fu has to change the way we do things.

So, as a teacher you've invested thousands of dollars in your own training, invested a substantial portion of your time. Now you want to teach and open your own school. Unless you are a multi-millionaire, your school needs to at least pay for its own bills and you for your time. Of course you love your kung fu and it would be even nicer to only teach kung fu all the time. This takes money. Plain and simple.

Now we live in the McDonald's society, so you doubt that anyone wants to train in the traditional methods anymore. So, being the enterprising person you are, you begin to combine forms into the essences of the style. You teach a lot less applications of the forms, again boiling down the mass of information you learned into some reliable, easy applications. Your fighters are cross trained to compete with the MMA styles that are so common.Instead of an 80 form, decade long curriculum (like you learned), you now have a 25 form 3-4 year curriculum with more simple and effective applications and a fighting system that works well in sport and real life. Students fill your classes. They're happy...you're happy.

Are you still a traditional school and if not; why?

[golden arhat]

Are you still a traditional school and if not; why?

and does it matter ? why ?

is "selling out" in order to boost finance increase effectiveness and shorten the length needed to do that really such a bad thing ?


(not to you jeffoo , of you can answer tho, just adding on to your question)

[wiz cool c]

None of the youth in Beijing are interested in any kind of kung fu. They like soccer, basketball, ping pong, table tennis, badmitten and video games. I know I teach a lot of them english.

[Jeffoo]

and does it matter ? why ?

is "selling out" in order to boost finance increase effectiveness and shorten the length needed to do that really such a bad thing ?


(not to you jeffoo , of you can answer tho, just adding on to your question)

yeah..that was my point too.

To clarify my point, would it make you any less of a teacher in the eyes of "tradition"?

Would you/Should you get the same respect if you taught this for a couple decades as the pure traditionalist?

[diego]

OK great inputs on this issue. Here's a Hypothetical for everyone.

I think most of us are in agreement that in order to compete for market share, etc. with TKD, etc. that Kung Fu has to change the way we do things.

So, as a teacher you've invested thousands of dollars in your own training, invested a substantial portion of your time. Now you want to teach and open your own school. Unless you are a multi-millionaire, your school needs to at least pay for its own bills and you for your time. Of course you love your kung fu and it would be even nicer to only teach kung fu all the time. This takes money. Plain and simple.

Now we live in the McDonald's society, so you doubt that anyone wants to train in the traditional methods anymore. So, being the enterprising person you are, you begin to combine forms into the essences of the style. You teach a lot less applications of the forms, again boiling down the mass of information you learned into some reliable, easy applications. Your fighters are cross trained to compete with the MMA styles that are so common.Instead of an 80 form, decade long curriculum (like you learned), you now have a 25 form 3-4 year curriculum with more simple and effective applications and a fighting system that works well in sport and real life. Students fill your classes. They're happy...you're happy.

Are you still a traditional school and if not; why?


If you streamlined your forms into fighting combinations, gave your students workable basics effective for the ring...ten years later these students will come to you for the traditional sets because they have the time and money to...teach kids to fight and teach old people how to move which many in the west need...people always throw out their hip etc when they hit senior, so I'm thinking things like tai chi would be very attractive for them...teach the essence of martial arts which is fighting but promote the artistic side and this imo would be a very succesfull traditonal school.:)

[monkeyfoot]

and sadly traditional kungfu will go the way of the 'lost' skills

I only think this is true if tma continues to be taught with little emphasis on application, power and correct body mechanics etc. TMA on a large part is going stale, and this is because a lot of teachers have settled with collecting forms rather than training correctly.

But look at people like Mike Martello, Jochen and Tunks. IMO these sorta guys are the ones bringing TMA's back to where they should be. Forms are just a method of training....not the be all end all.

We're just going through a dark period with the focus being on MMA and practical training. If TMA is taught practical it will hold its own.

craig

[cjurakpt]

this is a complex issue, because so much of what constitutes "traditional" training is, IMHO, highly subjective; first off, the definition of what is "traditional", I believe, is highly situational: does it have to do with length of how long something has been around? does it have to do with the content of what is taught? or the context?

for example, let's just go back ~150 years ago in China; I would argue that very similar conversations were being held by martial arts practitioners, except it wasn't about MMA, but rather about western military technology, specifically firearms, which hit a watershed around the time of the US civil war, which saw a change from single shot to repeaters, a major advancement in terms of widening the gap between someone armed with a gun against someone without one; I can imagine that as repeaters became more available, the discussion about whether it was worthwhile spending 10 years developing knife, sword and staff skills was a common one; of course, getting one's hands on a revolver at the time was probably pretty remote, and of course the realistic need for hand-to-hand martial skill persisted well into the 20th c., but the point is that in theory, the utility of hand-to-hand was irrevocably changed by this, and no doubt engendered some heated discussion between old-timers and forward thinkers...;

so here we are, 21st c.; a totally different landscape, a totally different context; and yet the argument of "traditional" versus "modern" still persists; those of us who trained 15 to 20 years ago have seen drastic changes even in a short period of time;

personally, here's what I think: I think it's all for the best, what is happening now, in terms of the rise of MMA, and in fact, i think it's good not only for that particular skill set, but also for TCMA! here's why: it's a wake up call - for many years, i think that the TCMA world was resting on repeated layers of completely fabricated BS - for example, the idea that all this "secret" advanced silliness like dim mak or internal power existed - of course you never saw it, or if you did, it was so unfathomable that you were helplessly tossed across the room by your sifu; but let's be honest - most of that was self-fulfilling prophecy - so many of us went in with the expectation that that little old man had something special, something extraordinary; and when he offered it to us, we readily accepted, because it basically confirmed our desire to be part of something esoteric, something almost paranormal - it didn't even matter if we could ever achieve it ourselves, it as just an honor to be thrown around like rag dolls, never questioning the whole context; part and parcel of that, was this idea that you never, ever questioned your sensei/sabumnim/sifu, and heaven forbid some outsider came along expressing doubt - well, they just were blind to the reality of what was really going on;

see, here's the kicker: we basically set ourselves up for failure at the outset - in other words, and be honest, how many of you ever thought that you could one day be "as good" or better than your sifu? I'd be willing to bet not a single one, if he was an old Chinese guy; on the flip side, how many of your old sifu's ever said "I want all of my students to surpass me one day?"; probably not a single one; and to reinforce that, they kept their "advanced secrets" as a way of keeping people hooked for years, a way of trumping each success with a reminder of what you were still missing; and if you got good at 'externally", well, then there was the whole "internal" hoo doo voo doo scheme to keep you guessing...

MMA, I believe, grew up in direct response to the whole TMA artifact of "our stuff is too deadly to show / use, so just trust me when i tell you it'll work"; people got tired of hanging around in a fog and wanted to have a clarity as to what actually worked against resisting opponents, tired of the old saw about "if you really resisted what I was showing, you'd get killed by the technique in question"

so, in a word, the whole MMA revolution was founded on students no longer willing to be compliant, no longer willing to take someone's word for whether or not something really worked; of course, i am generalizing, because for every situation there is an exception, but that's about it in a nutshell...

now some will say that this perspective is really "traditional", in the sense that in the "old days", TCMA was used for real fighting, for killing; I would agree, but i would also point out that in the "old days", the preferred method of doing this was via some sort of weaponry; in other words, in the old days, you wanted as much of a technological advantage as possible, to leave as little to chance as possible; you also wanted to level the playing field as much as you could, meaning that a little scrawny guy with a knife is much closer to a big strong guy with a knife than if the two of them faced each other unarmed; which also means that conditioning is much less of an issue as well, BTW: even now, at my "advanced age", give me a stick and I have a much bette chance to be effective against a conditioned fighter in his 20's, whereas empty handed I'd be at a significant disadvantage;

add onto that the whole thing about TCMA being a "life long" cultivation - this has more to do with Chinese culture than anything else - it was probably a thrust on the part of TCMA teachers to appear more cultured, more genteel, in order to improve their social standing and to attract paying customers when they opened up shop - to be a "warrior scholar" was keeping in line with old Confucian societal ideals, as opposed to "ruthless killer for hire"; actually, not too different from the current situation, where "old time" hardcore guys from the 70's and 80's are actively cleaning up their image to attract the soccer moms and baby-boomer seniors (I mean, when you have an article about Ng Wai Hong portrayed as a kindly old sifu, it makes you jut cringe, considering where his past was - if his suburban clientele knew half of what he even allegedly was involved in, my lord!)

so, I think if you recall look at it realistically, the whole notion of what was traditional, of why things are / were done a certain way, it's very situational, and often the subtext is significantly different from the outward sheen; and as such, I really don't think that the whole issue of "preserving" any given way of doing things pro forma really is worth bothering oneself with; I mean, you can't fight the way society changes, you can only go with the flow; of course, within that, you can preserve something, but you need to be skillful; I think personally that one has to be almost 2 types of teachers at once these days: one type gives the public what it wants in general: the kiddie classes, the McDojo approach to teaching, the MMA approach to conditioning and fighting; and then, there are those people who will be like you, who want something "deeper" in their art, for whatever reason (personally, I call it cultural escapism - as my teacher says, "the local ginger is never as pungent as the foreign one")

overall, I think everyone should just relax a bit - stop bemoaning the way the next generation doesn't appreciate things the way we did - that makes us sound like a bunch of crotchety old men sitting on a porch; rather, think that they key is too recognize that all things change and evolve, and that to various degrees one must adapt to that change, and even make use of it, in order to provide continuity between the past and future; why i think this is a blessing for TCMA is that on the one hand it forces us to look realistically at our arts, to weed out the stuff that doesn't work (and to understand why certain "impractical" techniques even crept in in the first place...); but on the flip side, it enhances our ability to promote "traditional" arts in and of themselves: in other words, you can have your MMA-like curriculum to satisfy he need for immediate effectiveness; at the same time, you can teach the "extended" traditional one to those interested in the same way you were taught - those students have the option of doing both approaches simultaneously, but at least they do it without being mislead about the need to study taiji for 50 years before they can actually "use it" in a fight

in conclusion, let's not complain, but rather embrace the exciting new opportunities that the changes over the last 15 or 20 years have afforded; be true to your tradition, but at the same time, be forward thinking, and create the reality you want; this will generate anew the freshness and spontanaity that we all remember having as new students when we first set foot on the path, and enable us to inspire a new generation of practitioners with whatever it is we have to offer

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Instead of an 80 form, decade long curriculum (like you learned), you now have a 25 form 3-4 year curriculum with more simple and effective applications and a fighting system that works well in sport and real life.

Reply]
See, here is the thing, the 80 forms are all recently made. Only a small handful of them are from the original system. The heros of Kung Fu, the REAL fighters back from like 3 generations ago made them all up to have something to teach rather than thier actual skills. We should really all stop worshiping these guys, they passed us all crap, and never the true arts. Only a few lines remained intact.

Complete styles had 10 forms, the biggest I know of had 18 (and that was a creation of many masters at Shaolin), but most were 10 and under. Many styles have only 1-3 forms, and that is all. So if you *Really* want to be traditional, you need to do your research and figure out which sets were around prior to the last 3 generations, and focus only on learning to fight well with those systems.

Originally Forms were just a diploma. You were only taught them AFTER you mastered the style so you could show that you were authentic. later they became to be used as a good way to refine body mechanics for the teachers and masters who already had them...they really did not become part of the learning process untill 3-4 generations ago when the plan was to demilitarize Kung Fu and take it's teeth away.

In other words, when they were INTENTIONALLY trying to weaken Kung fu's functionality, they turned to forms training to accomplish this goal.

So if you really want to get to the hard core nuts and bolts of thousands of years of Chinese Martial arts, you need to put forms where they belong, on the back burner, and work application skills, strategy, tactics and attribute training like the old days.

[Yao Sing]

Not only that but the guys that were really good fighters focused on a small number of moves and got really good with them. The rest were for teaching peeps of different shapes and sizes.

[Yao Sing]

My last Sifu had a story about a guy training by carrying a pig. When it cam time to fight that was the only move he needed. Wish I could remember how it goes.

Also one of the instructors retold a story about a guy who would fight and win using only Second Exercise (cum na sow) from the system. In truth I can see applying it to almost any situation (standing situation for you grapplers).

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I think the large collection of moves really came from the military. As different systems poured into Shaolin for preservation, a huge collection developed from what was once many smaller military systems form a variety of different units and Garrisons.

The founder of my style learned a lot of different things, but the system that eventually emerged from that is basically all distilled down to 3 sets (at least that is what survived to modern times according to historical documents). There are two more, but they were created by Shaolin from his notes several hundred years later....so I really don't count them.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

You are right about the bread and butter techniques too. It is no accident that sets in my system are compiled in roads of 32 postures each. Each road has all you really need to know. Just get really good with a dozen or so of the tech from one, and be comfortable with the rest. You don't need 80 forms with thousands of techniques.

It's kind of funny, but if you look at what a lot of Chinese systems teach, and then compare to what they Say is how it should be done.

For example, you might find a school that is teaching 5 forms for each rank level (or 50 to Black sash)....but they will turn around and in the very next breath say "One sword is easier to keep sharp than Many" or "Too many swords will be all of rust, but keep only a few and they will be able to be kept sharp".

So if you listen to what they say when they are bragging about thier great masters of the past, and train like THAT your good......Do what they say, not what they do.

[Christopher M]

Maybe there's some different ideas about what "traditional" entails. I thought it meant getting knocked around every week one-on-one with your teacher in his living room or backyard. In street clothes, even!

[mickey]

Greetings,

Going commercial is one of the most difficult challenges a traditional martial artist has to face. It is subject to ebbs and flows. I would not recommend it to anyone. Even Hong Kong Sifu, back in the '70's, credit Bruce Lee in revitalizing interest in traditional chinese martial arts.

Jeffoo,

If you are really interested in passing on a tradition, you need a long range plan. Instead of going commercial while trying to reach the youth of the Chinese community, I would recommend that you join a church (Buddhist, Taoist, Christian, whatever) and make a ten to fifteen year committment there. You will gain the benefit of having "captive" participants. Parents will bring in their children to you to foster their development and you can work on developing a very strong traditional base. You can charge less money and still profit while breaking off the church a piece. And while you are doing all of that, you can focus on the search of finding that one or few students who are willing to pass on the tradition that you embrace. If your style has a temple origin, teaching in a church reinforces the sacredness of the teachings. I consider it the best way to go. And you will be in a great position to help create an even better tomorrow.

After you have made that committment, you can go commercial. If you have done a great job, you will not have to go to anybody; parents will come to you with their children, their future, for you to foster. By then you may have already found fulfillment and will not want to go anywhere else.

Just another point of view,

mickey

[sanjuro_ronin]

this is a complex issue, because so much of what constitutes "traditional" training is, IMHO, highly subjective; first off, the definition of what is "traditional", I believe, is highly situational: does it have to do with length of how long something has been around? does it have to do with the content of what is taught? or the context?

for example, let's just go back ~150 years ago in China; I would argue that very similar conversations were being held by martial arts practitioners, except it wasn't about MMA, but rather about western military technology, specifically firearms, which hit a watershed around the time of the US civil war, which saw a change from single shot to repeaters, a major advancement in terms of widening the gap between someone armed with a gun against someone without one; I can imagine that as repeaters became more available, the discussion about whether it was worthwhile spending 10 years developing knife, sword and staff skills was a common one; of course, getting one's hands on a revolver at the time was probably pretty remote, and of course the realistic need for hand-to-hand martial skill persisted well into the 20th c., but the point is that in theory, the utility of hand-to-hand was irrevocably changed by this, and no doubt engendered some heated discussion between old-timers and forward thinkers...;

so here we are, 21st c.; a totally different landscape, a totally different context; and yet the argument of "traditional" versus "modern" still persists; those of us who trained 15 to 20 years ago have seen drastic changes even in a short period of time;

personally, here's what I think: I think it's all for the best, what is happening now, in terms of the rise of MMA, and in fact, i think it's good not only for that particular skill set, but also for TCMA! here's why: it's a wake up call - for many years, i think that the TCMA world was resting on repeated layers of completely fabricated BS - for example, the idea that all this "secret" advanced silliness like dim mak or internal power existed - of course you never saw it, or if you did, it was so unfathomable that you were helplessly tossed across the room by your sifu; but let's be honest - most of that was self-fulfilling prophecy - so many of us went in with the expectation that that little old man had something special, something extraordinary; and when he offered it to us, we readily accepted, because it basically confirmed our desire to be part of something esoteric, something almost paranormal - it didn't even matter if we could ever achieve it ourselves, it as just an honor to be thrown around like rag dolls, never questioning the whole context; part and parcel of that, was this idea that you never, ever questioned your sensei/sabumnim/sifu, and heaven forbid some outsider came along expressing doubt - well, they just were blind to the reality of what was really going on;

see, here's the kicker: we basically set ourselves up for failure at the outset - in other words, and be honest, how many of you ever thought that you could one day be "as good" or better than your sifu? I'd be willing to bet not a single one, if he was an old Chinese guy; on the flip side, how many of your old sifu's ever said "I want all of my students to surpass me one day?"; probably not a single one; and to reinforce that, they kept their "advanced secrets" as a way of keeping people hooked for years, a way of trumping each success with a reminder of what you were still missing; and if you got good at 'externally", well, then there was the whole "internal" hoo doo voo doo scheme to keep you guessing...

MMA, I believe, grew up in direct response to the whole TMA artifact of "our stuff is too deadly to show / use, so just trust me when i tell you it'll work"; people got tired of hanging around in a fog and wanted to have a clarity as to what actually worked against resisting opponents, tired of the old saw about "if you really resisted what I was showing, you'd get killed by the technique in question"

so, in a word, the whole MMA revolution was founded on students no longer willing to be compliant, no longer willing to take someone's word for whether or not something really worked; of course, i am generalizing, because for every situation there is an exception, but that's about it in a nutshell...

now some will say that this perspective is really "traditional", in the sense that in the "old days", TCMA was used for real fighting, for killing; I would agree, but i would also point out that in the "old days", the preferred method of doing this was via some sort of weaponry; in other words, in the old days, you wanted as much of a technological advantage as possible, to leave as little to chance as possible; you also wanted to level the playing field as much as you could, meaning that a little scrawny guy with a knife is much closer to a big strong guy with a knife than if the two of them faced each other unarmed; which also means that conditioning is much less of an issue as well, BTW: even now, at my "advanced age", give me a stick and I have a much bette chance to be effective against a conditioned fighter in his 20's, whereas empty handed I'd be at a significant disadvantage;

add onto that the whole thing about TCMA being a "life long" cultivation - this has more to do with Chinese culture than anything else - it was probably a thrust on the part of TCMA teachers to appear more cultured, more genteel, in order to improve their social standing and to attract paying customers when they opened up shop - to be a "warrior scholar" was keeping in line with old Confucian societal ideals, as opposed to "ruthless killer for hire"; actually, not too different from the current situation, where "old time" hardcore guys from the 70's and 80's are actively cleaning up their image to attract the soccer moms and baby-boomer seniors (I mean, when you have an article about Ng Wai Hong portrayed as a kindly old sifu, it makes you jut cringe, considering where his past was - if his suburban clientele knew half of what he even allegedly was involved in, my lord!)

so, I think if you recall look at it realistically, the whole notion of what was traditional, of why things are / were done a certain way, it's very situational, and often the subtext is significantly different from the outward sheen; and as such, I really don't think that the whole issue of "preserving" any given way of doing things pro forma really is worth bothering oneself with; I mean, you can't fight the way society changes, you can only go with the flow; of course, within that, you can preserve something, but you need to be skillful; I think personally that one has to be almost 2 types of teachers at once these days: one type gives the public what it wants in general: the kiddie classes, the McDojo approach to teaching, the MMA approach to conditioning and fighting; and then, there are those people who will be like you, who want something "deeper" in their art, for whatever reason (personally, I call it cultural escapism - as my teacher says, "the local ginger is never as pungent as the foreign one")

overall, I think everyone should just relax a bit - stop bemoaning the way the next generation doesn't appreciate things the way we did - that makes us sound like a bunch of crotchety old men sitting on a porch; rather, think that they key is too recognize that all things change and evolve, and that to various degrees one must adapt to that change, and even make use of it, in order to provide continuity between the past and future; why i think this is a blessing for TCMA is that on the one hand it forces us to look realistically at our arts, to weed out the stuff that doesn't work (and to understand why certain "impractical" techniques even crept in in the first place...); but on the flip side, it enhances our ability to promote "traditional" arts in and of themselves: in other words, you can have your MMA-like curriculum to satisfy he need for immediate effectiveness; at the same time, you can teach the "extended" traditional one to those interested in the same way you were taught - those students have the option of doing both approaches simultaneously, but at least they do it without being mislead about the need to study taiji for 50 years before they can actually "use it" in a fight

in conclusion, let's not complain, but rather embrace the exciting new opportunities that the changes over the last 15 or 20 years have afforded; be true to your tradition, but at the same time, be forward thinking, and create the reality you want; this will generate anew the freshness and spontanaity that we all remember having as new students when we first set foot on the path, and enable us to inspire a new generation of practitioners with whatever it is we have to offer

Well said.
Period.

[Scott R. Brown]

Very well said Chris!:)

I only have one comment,

I don't know if I should compliment you on getting it all into one post or to criticize you for making it so short!:D

[KFNOOB]

cjurakpt---- what do you currently train in. I assume you are advanced and you are reflecting back but what would you do if you were beginning today, knowing what you know?

Would you go to JKD, Judo, BJJ or the likes? Would you do the same as you did only dismiss the forms?

Great work, makes one think.

[cjurakpt]

Well said.
Period.
thank you


Very well said Chris!:)

I only have one comment,

I don't know if I should compliment you on getting it all into one post or to criticize you for making it so short!:D
well, you know if I get too much positive feedback I start that whole self-sabotage cycle thing, so it's probably for the best if the latter...:p

[Scott R. Brown]

thank you


well, you know if I get too much positive feedback I start that whole self-sabotage cycle thing, so it's probably for the best if the latter...:p

LOL!! In that case.....


Try a little harder next time!! You are lagging behind!;)

I recommend saying the same thing three or four different ways in the same paragraph. I find it works well for me!:D

[cranky old man]

l started training before most of you were born probably before any of you were. l have read all of your opinions and agree with most. but not all . l started when most styles had as little as 3 or four kata in japanese styles watched while some have over 10 being added my first style had 4 . when l first learned pak mei l was taught 3 sets . the rest l learned in the event l was to teach which was never my goal. l remember when people started to be a forms collector thats when clubs started to become money makers ,the more forms you could teach the money you made. the old clubs taught to fight that was the tradition . we made fun of clubs offering huge numbers of forms. we have watched forms being added as commercialism became the norm. fighting or learning to,became less and less part of training . being banged up and bruised after a class was the norm not now . one thing about mma and other such sport fighting on t.v. as l see it bull**** artists are being forced into proving what they do . which in my young days was the norm and if they fail hopefully will be closed down. so what l see we had tradition that was to learn to fight. not listening to we are to dangerous to fight others and other silly stories. so most are taking about what we discussed back then as we saw it changeing into what you think is old tradition but isnt in most cases really old tradition . old tradition was to learn to fight . and older styles who in some places still are taught have few forms at all because the teaching of it isnt for money. martial arts was for fighting not becomeing more spiritual . in my life l have seen tma go from good to bad and now some are coming back to the basics thats a good thing . for tma you dont need to have large numbers to keep it alive just a few of quaulity.

[Jeffoo]

thank you


well, you know if I get too much positive feedback I start that whole self-sabotage cycle thing, so it's probably for the best if the latter...:p


LOL here I was about to give you some excellent positive feedback about how much you think like me....in your best interest I will refrain. :P

[sanjuro_ronin]

l started training before most of you were born probably before any of you were. l have read all of your opinions and agree with most. but not all . l started when most styles had as little as 3 or four kata in japanese styles watched while some have over 10 being added my first style had 4 . when l first learned pak mei l was taught 3 sets . the rest l learned in the event l was to teach which was never my goal. l remember when people started to be a forms collector thats when clubs started to become money makers ,the more forms you could teach the money you made. the old clubs taught to fight that was the tradition . we made fun of clubs offering huge numbers of forms. we have watched forms being added as commercialism became the norm. fighting or learning to,became less and less part of training . being banged up and bruised after a class was the norm not now . one thing about mma and other such sport fighting on t.v. as l see it bull**** artists are being forced into proving what they do . which in my young days was the norm and if they fail hopefully will be closed down. so what l see we had tradition that was to learn to fight. not listening to we are to dangerous to fight others and other silly stories. so most are taking about what we discussed back then as we saw it changeing into what you think is old tradition but isnt in most cases really old tradition . old tradition was to learn to fight . and older styles who in some places still are taught have few forms at all because the teaching of it isnt for money. martial arts was for fighting not becomeing more spiritual . in my life l have seen tma go from good to bad and now some are coming back to the basics thats a good thing . for tma you dont need to have large numbers to keep it alive just a few of quaulity.

Another good post.

It seems that, from a certain point of view, MMA is more traditional than the majority of TMA that claim to be so.

[cjurakpt]

It seems that, from a certain point of view, MMA is more traditional than the majority of TMA that claim to be so.

man, only January, and we already have what's more or less the post of the year...

[cjurakpt]

LOL here I was about to give you some excellent positive feedback about how much you think like me....
now that's scary...;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

man, only January, and we already have what's more or less the post of the year...

I have my moments...:D

I have never been a big fan of MMA in terms of the stuff like UFC and such, I feel they market it more like pro wrestling than a true MA competition format.
But in terms of Ruleset and "philosophy", MMA is right on the button:
Test it, use it, drop it if it doesn't work for you.
Test it in an environment that is as close to the real thing as possible and test it with other trained fighters and not some untrained bum on the street.

[cjurakpt]

I have my moments...:D

I have never been a big fan of MMA in terms of the stuff like UFC and such, I feel they market it more like pro wrestling than a true MA competition format.
But in terms of Ruleset and "philosophy", MMA is right on the button:
Test it, use it, drop it if it doesn't work for you.
Test it in an environment that is as close to the real thing as possible and test it with other trained fighters and not some untrained bum on the street.

100% agreed - it still boggles my mind that any TCMA practitioner can't recognize the obvious benefit of being in an environment that includes something like MMA - enough with the air of superiority and theoretical justifications as to why TCMA won't deign to sully it's hands with MMA folks: I mean, you've got an entire population of fighters who are psyched about mixing it up and finding out what really works and who aren't psychologically hamstrung by the fact that your teacher is the lineage holder of a 10,000 year-old system; the only "risk" is possibly finding out that the traditional style you've spent decades of your life doing doesn't give you much return on your investment...no fun there!

as my teacher says, "let the wind blow!"; meaning that, if it never blows, you don't find out how strong your roots are...

[lkfmdc]

MMA is more traditional than the majority of TMA that claim to be so.

for revealing the "holy secret" your membership in the "society" has been revoked. You must now return the decoder ring, the jacket and your parking spot at the club. We will also have to change the secret handshake :mad:

[sanjuro_ronin]

100% agreed - it still boggles my mind that any TCMA practitioner can't recognize the obvious benefit of being in an environment that includes something like MMA - enough with the air of superiority and theoretical justifications as to why TCMA won't deign to sully it's hands with MMA folks: I mean, you've got an entire population of fighters who are psyched about mixing it up and finding out what really works and who aren't psychologically hamstrung by the fact that your teacher is the lineage holder of a 10,000 year-old system; the only "risk" is possibly finding out that the traditional style you've spent decades of your life doing doesn't give you much return on your investment...no fun there!

as my teacher says, "let the wind blow!"; meaning that, if it never blows, you don't find out how strong your roots are...

Truly, it boggles everyone's mind.
I don't get it, you train to fight, no matter what the final goal the fact is, you are trying to fight, why would anyone have issues in seeing if their training works ?
And not versus classmates that you know the in's and outs of them, or some non-trained people on the street but VS people that can actually fight.

[sanjuro_ronin]

for revealing the "holy secret" your membership in the "society" has been revoked. You must now return the decoder ring, the jacket and your parking spot at the club. We will also have to change the secret handshake :mad:

Not thew parking spot !!!!
At least I get to keep my supply of Wang Dong Sexual enhancer.
:D

[SteveLau]

Many good posts show here. TMA like other traditions, which might has some good and some bad aspects. Sure, we would like to retain the good and wash out the bad. Sometimes it happens so, but sometimes it does not. That is how human society works.



Regards,

KC
Hong Kong

[Black Jack II]

u never see westerners showing the same passion they show for kung fu
for western fencing on such a huge scale do you

True, but you do see a lot of westerners show this passion for firearms and the "kung fu" it requires to use them. Weapon's are a evolution from the fistic arts and it's always best to go with what works the best and fastest in the most perfect circumstances.

The invention of the firearms was one of the main reasons the western cultures got rid of of a number of its own vast hand to hand fighting systems, hand to hand styles, swords, spears, what have you.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

It seems that, from a certain point of view, MMA is more traditional than the majority of TMA that claim to be so.

Reply]
I have been saying this for ten years now.



Quote:
Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
It seems that, from a certain point of view, MMA is more traditional than the majority of TMA that claim to be so.
man, only January, and we already have what's more or less the post of the year...

Reply]
Not only have I been saying this for ten years now, but I am certain I have said it recently as well.:)

[Shaolinlueb]

Chinese martial arts, like a lot of traditional martial arts, simply don't have resonance with the youth today. TMA has become forms heavy, and flowery, and bogged down in mysticism and crap. TCMA has been castrated and emasculated. What was once the venue of "tough guys" (many gangsters, Diego will be thrilled to now read this thread) and very much about fighting has become the "art of scholars and monks" for "health", "enlightenment" and granola eating :rolleyes:

What's worse, is how many people supposedly doing TCMA have NO IDEA where it came from, what it was like in the old days and simply buy into the "feel good" PC crap being passed off as TCMA

and i can't agree with you more. there are very few schools who arent "granola eaters"