a myth busted

[dfl]

Warning: historical content. You would be wasting your time here if you have no interest in such matters.

I have been an avid reader of WC trivia^h^h^h^h^h^hhistory ever since the publication of New Martial Hero back in the summer of 1970. I thought I knew the history of YMWC fairly well until several years ago, when somebody presented a new wrinkle I have not heard of before, i.e., that YM had an uncle named Chu Chung Man of Weng Chun fame. I was surprised not by my own ignorance, but by the fact that this was never mentioned in over 30 years of books and articles where just about every facet of YM's life under the sun has been gone over with a fine-toothed comb. It would seem highly improbable that YM having such a distinguished relative would escape mentioning. Not having the means at the time to verify the veracity of such an astounding revelation, I kept it at the back of my mind as something to investigate when the opportunity avails itself.

This past summer I found myself in Hong Kong with some free time, so I decided to engage in a bit of hands-on historical research. I went up to the VTAA and visited Yip Chun, who, as YM's eldest son, must be considered the final authority on YM's familial relations (of which there can be no doubt). The following conversation (translated from Chinese) was what took place:

Q: Yip sifu, how are you? I am a WC student from USA, and I have some questions regarding your father, grandmaster Yip Man.
A: I'll be happy to answer any questions. Have a seat.
Q: I read on the internet that your father was related to Chu Chung Man of Weng Chun. Is that true?
A: They were good friends.
Q: They say Chu Chung Man was Yip Man's uncle.
A: No. They were not related, just good friends.
Q: Thank you for answering my question. I am going to put this on the internet to clarify the matter.
A: Yes.
Q: Thank you for your time.

There you have it, from the horse's mouth. I can provide the date and time such an encounter took place, and since there was a third person in the room at the time, there's an eyewitness to verify that I did not make this up.

The moral is: don't accept press releases, even from well known “sifus”, “masters” and “grandmasters”, at face value.

As historical research goes, this is trivial, especially since it could have been done by any of the 7+ million people living in HK. But I guess it's something so trivial nobody bothered doing it. Then why did I do this at all? I have a couple of reasons, a public one and a private one.

The public reason is: in this age of the internet, it's all too common for people to accept what turns up on google as fact. If you don't believe me, just try googling “yip man's uncle” and you'll see people referring to this factoid as if it were true. 1984 has come and gone, but the technology described therein is certainly here. If no one were to dispute such claims, after a few more years (especially after the last remaining ties, like Yip Chun, are gone), more and more hits would turn up, thus making a false claim an undisputable truth (hey, google can't be wrong). But now google may also turn up this post setting the record straight.

A more private reason is: some day (and that day is not too far off) I will go meet the ancestors in their training halls, I would be ashamed to face YM if he were to say to me “hey, so and so said such and such about me, and you did nothing?” I would be no better than a collaborator in the propagation of such untruths. Now I would have a clear conscience. I cannot change the world if people choose to believe in fiction, but I have done my meager part, and now I can stand before the ancestors with head unbowed.

ps, while I have no proof about that alleged encounter between YM and CCM in HK in the mid-50's, one way or another, since all those present are now dead, I have some doubts as to the veracity of that claim based on the following:


YM and CCM were friends back in Fatshan long before they met again in HK. They did not need to “test” each other out at such a late date. And even if they did, the old traditionalists with “mo duk” would never admit to or advertise the outcome of such encounters, not even behind closed doors.

In the mid-50's LS was already teaching, and LY and TST took on students soon thereafter. Even WSL, a comparatively late starter, was teaching Bruce Lee around that time frame. So even if there was any influence on YMWC from Weng Chun, it would not have affected these pioneers.

Usually in tests of skill, the losing side often adopts the way of the winning side, but not vice versa. Now many Weng Chun schools out there also teach WC, but the opposite is not true. This may be a historical accident since WC became popular long before Weng Chun, but it does sow seeds of doubt in the mind of a thinking person that something is amiss here.


pps, I have nothing against my friends in Weng Chun. I am sure stories overheard from others may just have been misinterpreted.

Well, you have just wasted the last 2 minutes of your life reading this drivel (but you have been forewarned), we now return you to your regularly scheduled bicker^h^h^h^h^h^hprogramming.

[doug maverick]

i never heard the uncle thing either. i heard they were friends yes! uncle i never heard. you talked with yip chun and that was it what a short conversation(not saying it didn;t happen but it was short)

[VingDragon]

Hi, thx for the artickle

some people suggest that YM and CCM were related as a family due to name 'Man' but it is not true. They were a kungfu family only. YM often came to Dai Duk Lan to discuss and practice together with other masters like Tang Yik or Wei Yan, but later there was a little conflict between CCM and YM about teaching the system. (...) DDL masters have never agreed to teach public, and they told YM to teach whatever he wants in public exept Weng Chun methods. That's all I know from oral sources.

[VingDragon]

Now many Weng Chun schools out there also teach WC would you give us any examples? please

[LoneTiger108]

DDL masters have never agreed to teach public, and they told YM to teach whatever he wants in public exept Weng Chun methods. That's all I know from oral sources.

Interesting comment VingDragon, as I was under the impression that Weng Chun methods were only ever taught via an oral tradition and never written down. This, IMHO, is the main difference.

Wing Chun is written and passed on with the pen, as well as the mouth, as it is written into the character itself...

[hunt1]

TN you're snide post is completely uncalled for. DFL said it was for history buffs at the very beginning. You dont care thats fine but no reason at all to attempt to belittle or denegrate DFL or what he is attempting to do. I for one enjoy the history. I have a degree in history .

Far to many people have called upon faulty history or out right lied about history to back up and sell their version of wing chun. This started after Yip Mans death and today followers of followers of these made up systems and histories teach and sell based on fabrications and lies.

If more people had told the truth and called out those that didnt years ago we would not have so many questionable systems and methods of wing chun as we see today.

[Vajramusti]

Appreciate the report of your interview with Ip Chun.

A parallel=In Ip Ching's book on his father "Ip man- Portrait of Kung Fu Master"-he does not refer to
Chu Chong Man as a real uncle. Depending on who was older and when they started "kung fu"
folks can be kung fu uncles, brothers etc. Shades, adapatations, versions of Confucian realtionships snd civilities..Specially see the pictures from the 1967 birthday party for Ip man with many influential people present.Ip man is shown leading Chu Chong Man by the elbow in meeting others at the party.

Ip Man himself has said in passing that wing chun and weng chun are different. One doesnt have to depend on authority. If you are perceptive just look at the differences in stance work
in wing and weng. Each has their own dynamics.

In the old days there were broken telephone conversations about who said what to whom.
With high speed internet one can create "realities" faster.

Not intended as a negative comment on weng chun...

Again, thanks DFL for sharing your conversation.

joy chaudhuri

[CFT]

some people suggest that YM and CCM were related as a family due to name 'Man' but it is not true. They were a kungfu family only.No Chinese would make this suggestion. Their respective family names are Yip/Ip and Chu. Even the "Man" characters are different.

Yip Man: 葉問
Chu Chong Man: 朱仲民

[anerlich]

Interesting stuff, thanks.


I am going to put this on the internet to clarify the matter.

"Put this it on the internet" and "clarify" are not often seen in the same sentence.

hunt1 is correct.

[VingDragon]

thanks for comments,
as I mentioned before, all we know about WengChun today comes from oral traditions and from hard practice in Dai Duk Lan. No one of the DDL masters have teached weng chun publicly. They were educated people and they didnt need to make money from kungfu teaching. It was only close circle of good kungfu friends whom big wishes was to preserve their family traditions.
Yip Man was invited few times into DDL as a honor guest, and whatever he learned from them he did take it to the grave, never shared to anyone.
Weng Chun is completely different then Wing Chun and today there is a lot of fake stories and propagada around the topics. Who ever wants to know more I send him directly to Hong Kong sources. There are living legends, real people and family members who knows the truth.
Personaly I dont trust the artickles or books. It's possible that most of them are just fabricated or missunderstood to create a interesting story.
I'm glad that people start to ask the questions in public - which is good. More people can share their thoughts then just only one. :)

[dfl]

would you give us any examples? please

How about this one (though one can argue which side he really sits on)?
http://www.wingtjun.com/
Lest my intentions be misconstrued, Weng Chun and WC came from the red boats at the same time (1850's). Though they are 2 distinct arts, their ancestors have lived in peace and friendship for over 100 years. WC had gained from Weng Chun's pole and maybe Weng Chun also found something useful from WC. Let's not let squabbles from previous generations perpetuate into this one. We already have enough of our own squabbles in this generation. I am only against unskilled marketers who try to step on others to promote themselves and did it in such a clumsy manner that even fools like me can see through the holes in their own stories.
I am reminded of an interview CXW did on TV. When asked what he feels about the different styles of taiji, all of which descended from Chen style, he said something like this, "The world is a big place with many people. All the styles can find a place to flourish without trampling on each other. The more people who do taiji, the better."


"Put this it on the internet" and "clarify" are not often seen in the same sentence.

Shows you the sword can cut both ways, doesn't it?

I feel so honored to receive a gratuitous swipe from the Great TN. Now I can join the distinguished company of the likes of CXW ("I can kick CXW's a**") and my own teacher, who was brought in for no other reason than another swipe just the day before on another thread. Wow, I feel so grateful I'm about to sprout one of Stephen Chow's immortal lines, "Sit down, have a bun and have some tea." But then I remembered his cup is probably full, just like it was when he first joined the wcml oh so many years ago, before he even met Robert Chu. To paraphrase Harry S Truman (in another context), "You can always tell a lawyer...you can't tell him much."

To the other 5 readers of this thread, thank you for your support.

[kj]

Thanks Dan and nicely done. You can now claim 6 readers. :)

Regards,
- kj

[LoneTiger108]

Let's not let squabbles from previous generations perpetuate into this one. We already have enough of our own squabbles in this generation.

Probably one of the most significant quotes I've read this year (but it is early on!)

Within each family different generations will have a different take of Wing Chun, depending how changeable the Sifu has been over the years. Even the same generation can be taught differently! It takes a brave set of students to put all the older wars behind them, and if you are like me and entered the style after all the eighties madness then you're quite lucky IMO! But we still have a way to go.

[chusauli]

In Chinese, we call our father's good friend "younger-uncle" or "elder-uncle". So of course, some people may have taken that literally.

As for surnames, Yip Man is Yip, Chu Chung-man is Chu. The only way is people might think there was a relation on the maternal side, or through marriage.

As for Weng Chun schools teaching Wing Chun Kuen - Andreas Hoffman and his sifu, Cheng Kwong, taught their version of Lok Yiu's WCK. Andreas, as I understand, has dropped it from the curriculum in his schools. Other Weng Chun schools that broke away from him may still teach Wing Chun, but HK Weng Chun schools did not teach Wing Chun.

Just my $0.02.

Best regards,

[VingDragon]

in my opinion its good if there is more wengchun schools and teachers then just one. it makes that our art will not die. the problem might be with personalities and their way of spreading the art. whatever they doing now, they are responsible for that and people will judge their actions in future. that's why we are here and have a public forums to ask, to clarify missunderstandings, right?

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Q: Yip sifu, how are you? I am a WC student from USA, and I have some questions regarding your father, grandmaster Yip Man.
A: I'll be happy to answer any questions. Have a seat.
Q: I read on the internet that your father was related to Chu Chung Man of Weng Chun. Is that true?
A: They were good friends.
Q: They say Chu Chung Man was Yip Man's uncle.
A: No. They were not related, just good friends.
Q: Thank you for answering my question. I am going to put this on the internet to clarify the matter.
A: Yes.
Q: Thank you for your time.

There you have it, from the horse's mouth. I can provide the date and time such an encounter took place..." (dfl)


***AMAZING that you didn't follow up with any questions about whether or not one or the other of these two "friends" was teaching/trading techniques and theories with the other one.

How come?

[dfl]

***AMAZING that you didn't follow up with any questions about whether or not one or the other of these two "friends" was teaching/trading techniques and theories with the other one.

How come?

I have thought about it but I refrained for 2 simple reasons:

Yip Chun was not around at the time such meetings were supposed to take place. He came out of China during the 60's, I believe. Anything he says on such matters, despite his prominence as YM's eldest son, is no better than 3rd hand hearsay. I am only interested in getting at the truth or something believable, like who he's related to.
To him I was just a total stranger coming off the street. How is he to know if I am not a complete whacko nutcase? Why would he share things which could only be discussed behind closed doors among closest members of the family?

[Vajramusti]

IMO dfl's judgement was the correct one. Ip Man's sons didnt move to HK till the 60s.
Ip man began teaching publicly on HK- but his mastering of the art and his main "experiences"
were already well developed before his exit from Mao's China.

joy chaudhuri

[NgGung]

I agree, both Brothers came to Hk in 1962!

[t_niehoff]

TN you're snide post is completely uncalled for. DFL said it was for history buffs at the very beginning. You dont care thats fine but no reason at all to attempt to belittle or denegrate DFL or what he is attempting to do. I for one enjoy the history. I have a degree in history .

Far to many people have called upon faulty history or out right lied about history to back up and sell their version of wing chun. This started after Yip Mans death and today followers of followers of these made up systems and histories teach and sell based on fabrications and lies.

If more people had told the truth and called out those that didnt years ago we would not have so many questionable systems and methods of wing chun as we see today.

Why, tell me why, do the mods delete my posts but leave those up that comment on it?

I made my "snide" remarks because this person used Yip Chun as some authority to rebut something someone else said. Well, as he even said in his own statement:

"The moral is: don't accept press releases, even from well known “sifus”, “masters” and “grandmasters”, at face value."

Well, exactly. Duh!

And that includes Yip Chun.

(To clarify- I found it disingenious that someone would say you shouldn't take the word of wll-known "authorities" when that was exactly what he was doing. Hence my snideness. But I am not surprised this was overlooked by you and others here.).

As Dr. House so aptly puts it every week: Everybody Lies. But to be kinder than Dr. House, you need to take everything with a (huge) grain of salt. Instead of accepting what anyone says as true, we need to look for evidence that can be independently verifiable. Absent that, it is just another unproven claim.

[KPM]

Instead of accepting what anyone says as true, we need to look for evidence that can be independently verifiable. Absent that, it is just another unproven claim.

Rather than accepting what anyone (ie internet posters) have said, DFL sought out info that could be independently verifiable. He went directly to Yip Chun and asked him if he was related to Chu Chong Man. How much more "verifiable" do you want it? Should we collect blood samples from both men and compare their DNA?

[anerlich]

- I found it disingenious that someone would say you shouldn't take the word of wll-known "authorities" when that was exactly what he was doing.

JMFC, YC's the son of one of the two people concerned, not an "authority". Your mother probably told you you were your father's son and not a b@stard child of the milkman too, but why would you or anyone else believe her? :rolleyes:


Why, tell me why, do the mods delete my posts but leave those up that comment on it?

I don't know, but IMO a good call and a policy that should be implemented across the board. Props to the mods.

[t_niehoff]

Rather than accepting what anyone (ie internet posters) have said, DFL sought out info that could be independently verifiable. He went directly to Yip Chun and asked him if he was related to Chu Chong Man. How much more "verifiable" do you want it? Should we collect blood samples from both men and compare their DNA?

See if you can follow this:

1) DFL made the point -- "The moral is: don't accept press releases, even from well known “sifus”, “masters” and “grandmasters”, at face value." (He was applying this to someone else not himself, as we will see below).

2) DFL then went on to make a "press release" as a forum post citing his interview with Yip Chun as "proof"

3) and asked us to take it at "face value".

Do you see the hypocricy, the contradiction?

Well, maybe you don't. After all, it was you who said on another thread
http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=833952&postcount=14

"I'm not one to emphasize the "sifu sez" approach, but Wong Shun Leung himself described WCK as being "simple, direct, and efficient." That's good enough for me!"

Once again,

1) I don't emphasize "sifu sez"

2) But "sifu sez" this or that

3) and that's good enough for me.

F#$king brilliant. (Snide comment alert).


What I am suggesting is to not accept DFL's word of what Yip Chun said or even accepting what Yip Chun said as fact, but instead looking for independent verification of both, to find as much evidence as we can *before* we start jumping to conclusions, things like getting info from the Chu Chong Man people, other Yip people, etc. and then weighing that evidence to determine how credible it is, to then determine the liklihood of various things, etc. In other words, to do what all good historical researchers do.

But that may be asking too much of people who can't see simple self-contraditctions.

And let me add, I have no problem whatsoever with DFL posting his "interview" with Yip Chun. That may be useful info. What I objected to was the underlying context on his post which was based on a self-contradiction and hypocritical.

[reneritchie]

Yip Smash Puny Rumor? :)

Nice Dan.

The rumor, FWIW, came from one of those articles (my memory is no longer good enough to remember which), which mentioned very much in passing something like "a distant relative on his mother's side".

While based on past happenings, I tend to look for political machinations in these types of replies, it doesn't seem significant enough for Yip Chun sifu not to give a direct answer, to the best of his knowledge (and I say that only because I have no idea about distant relatives on my mother's side, so don't expect others too have universal knowledge either).

[KPM]

Terence wrote:
Do you see the hypocricy, the contradiction?

----I think most of us here understood DFL's purpose in posting what he did. He could have put it in a better context. What he wrote was a bit of a contradiction. But we all appreciated the info he provided without having to turn it into an argument. But then, you like to argue. ;)


"I'm not one to emphasize the "sifu sez" approach, but Wong Shun Leung himself described WCK as being "simple, direct, and efficient." That's good enough for me!"

Once again,

1) I don't emphasize "sifu sez"

2) But "sifu sez" this or that

3) and that's good enough for me.

F#$king brilliant. (Snide comment alert).

---The "I'm not one to emphasize the sifu sex approach" was the disclaimor to point out that I felt it was pretty significant that WSL had agreed with the theme of the thread. You had asked "who says..." I told you the answer.


What I am suggesting is to not accept DFL's word of what Yip Chun said or even accepting what Yip Chun said as fact, but instead looking for independent verification of both, to find as much evidence as we can *before* we start jumping to conclusions, things like getting info from the Chu Chong Man people, other Yip people, etc. and then weighing that evidence to determine how credible it is, to then determine the liklihood of various things, etc. In other words, to do what all good historical researchers do.

---That sounds like an awful lot of work just to decide whether Yip Man was related to Chu Chong Man. Is the info worth that much effort? Seems a better solution to me is to simply ask one of Yip Man's relatives whether or not they are related to Chu Chong Man. That may not satisfy the rigors of academic historical research, but it certainly carries more weight than an article posted on the internet!

But that may be asking too much of people who can't see simple self-contraditctions.

---And it may be too much to ask you to take part in a thread without turning it into a big argument.

And let me add, I have no problem whatsoever with DFL posting his "interview" with Yip Chun. That may be useful info. What I objected to was the underlying context on his post which was based on a self-contradiction and hypocritical.

---Like you've never posted things that were objectionable!!???:eek: Why does everything have to be a big argument with you? Why not just take DFLs post for what he intended?

[reneritchie]

"I'm not one to emphasize the sifu sex approach"

Too many jokes flooding system... Kernel panicking on Jessica Biel being sifu...

D'oh, BSOD!

[KPM]

Too many jokes flooding system... Kernel panicking on Jessica Biel being sifu...

D'oh, BSOD!


Ooops!!! :eek: How about "sifu Alba"....or would that be "simo"? :D

[reneritchie]

Nice KPM,

Looks like sifu sex is a real thread killa!

[tjwingchun]

Nice KPM,

Looks like sifu sex is a real thread killa!

Depends if you are the Sifu or the strudent :eek::D:confused:;)

[drleungjohn]

Unfortunately,Sifu Alba is not in her right mind these days-maybe hormones,maybe liver chi stagnation,who knows--and worse-when the baby comes out not looking like Cash Warren,but a certain Sicilian Chiropractor Wing Chun practitioner from Long Island-The fecal matter is really going to fly

[KPM]

Unfortunately,Sifu Alba is not in her right mind these days-maybe hormones,maybe liver chi stagnation,who knows--and worse-when the baby comes out not looking like Cash Warren,but a certain Sicilian Chiropractor Wing Chun practitioner from Long Island-The fecal matter is really going to fly


John! You should follow the ancient Wing Chun tradition of keeping such things secret! :eek: