So I got to make dit da jow the other day

[bodhitree]

Working in the TCM shop on weekends noone had ever requested dit da jow before yesterday, but a martial artist came in and requested some.

I don't remember everything in the formula but this is what I remember

Xue Jie (red crystal substance, crushed into a powder)
Hong Hua
Notoginseng (root crushed into smaller pieces)
Da Huang
Chi Shao (Red Peony Root)
Mo Yao (crushed)

There were maybe 2 or 3 herbs I can't remember, and this was to be soaked in Vodka.


I actually know the guys martial arts teacher, was pretty cool!

[The Xia]

Dit Da Jow is great for both martial artists (essential for certain things) and non-martial artists. Does your shop advertise its uses?

[bodhitree]

Dit Da Jow is great for both martial artists (essential for certain things) and non-martial artists. Does your shop advertise its uses?


No, the shop does not. The CMA community in Pittsburgh is small, and most of them know the doctor. Most of her patients are Chinese or new ageish Americans.

[lhommedieu]

Following is a representative formula for a Dit Da Jow for acute injuries that uses some of the herbs that you reference above. The other herbs work together as well to create a blood-moving, Qi-coursing, pain-killing forumla. Using the tail of Dang Gui and preparing it by frying it in vinegar accentuates its blood-moving qualities. You could also add a cup of vinegar per gallon of vodka to help the formula penetrate into the tendons. This would be helpful in the case of sprains, etc.


Da Huang
4 Qian

Zhi Zi
4 Qian

Hong Hua
4 Qian

Huang Bai
4 Qian

Ru Xiang
4 Qian

Mo Yao
4 Qian

Zhang Nao
4 Qian

Xue Jie
4 Qian

Lu Lu Tong
4 Qian

Dang Gui Wei (tail)
Vinegar fry
4 Qian

Best,

Steve

[OTD]

• 1 liter bottle of strong vodka, gin or Chinese rice wine
• Artemesia (Liu ji nu) - 5g
• Borneol (Bingpian) - 1g
• Carthamus (Honghua) - 5g
• Catechu (Ercha) - 8g
• Cinnabar (Zhusha) - 5g
• Cirsium (DaJi) - 1g
• Dragon's Blood (Xuejie) - 30g
• Mastic (Ruxiang) - 5g
• Musk (Shexiang) - 1g
• Myrrh (Moyao) - 5g
• Pinellia (ShengBanXia) - 5g

Grind up place in alcohol stir weekly ready on 60 days
really strong after 6 months. Keep out of open wounds
OTD

[bodhitree]

This is turning out to be a good thread!

TTT

[Dale Dugas]

• 1 liter bottle of strong vodka, gin or Chinese rice wine
• Artemesia (Liu ji nu) - 5g
• Borneol (Bingpian) - 1g
• Carthamus (Honghua) - 5g
• Catechu (Ercha) - 8g
• Cinnabar (Zhusha) - 5g
• Cirsium (DaJi) - 1g
• Dragon's Blood (Xuejie) - 30g
• Mastic (Ruxiang) - 5g
• Musk (Shexiang) - 1g
• Myrrh (Moyao) - 5g
• Pinellia (ShengBanXia) - 5g

Grind up place in alcohol stir weekly ready on 60 days
really strong after 6 months. Keep out of open wounds
OTD




You have to be insane to use any formula that contains cinnabar.

There are other alternatives.

Posting such a formula is reckless and shows your total lack of knowledge.

Do not use cinnabar ever as its naturally occurring mercury. It is highly toxic and using a formula like this over time will be detrimental to you health.

By the way who are you OTD and where did you get this formula?

It would seem you have not much experience if you do not know the ingredients in your formulas and what they can do to you.

[Golden Spider]

Mmmm, cinnabar 'Jow, my favorite. ~Of course the mineral must be ground up after it is submerged to avoid the possibility of mercury sulfide inhalation...mmmm. Well, that's what they told me, anyway. Not that I would ever attempt such a thing...

[OTD]

Dale Dugas
Dit Da Jow Master Brewer

BTW there is more mercury in one tooth filling than in 10 gallons of this
Jow. I have PM you the site where this particular Wing Chun jow is
from.(It has been on the net since 1992 in one form or another)
I have no dog in this fight
OTD

[OTD]

Heavy metals taken out. It is a great general purpose Jow for Iron Palm, bruise healing, pain reducing, and circulation enhancing. Instructions are posted for 2 ways of making 1 gallon of the Jow.

For making approximately 1 gallon


Fu Zi--30 gm (1 oz. is 28 gm. For convenience, we say 30 gm)
Ban Xia--30 gm
Di Gu Pi--60 gm
Bai Bu--60 gm
Long Gu--30 gm (optional--this is heat-treated cow bone (dragon bone))
Tian Nan Xing--30 gm
Hong Hua--30 gm
She Chuang Zi--30 gm
Chuan Xiong--30 gm
Hua Jiao--15 gm--will be phased out due to new FDA restrictions
San Qi--15 gm
Xue Jie--30 gm
Ru Xiang--30 gm
Mo Yao--30 gm
Ding Xiang--30 gm
Dang Gui--30 gm
Da Huang--15 gm
Add separately after cooking:
Camphor/Borneol Crystals--15 gm
Menthol Crystals--15 gm


The total cost for the herbs listed above is $50.


The simple quick method for making this is to bring the herbs to a rolling boil in 1/2 gallon of water, simmer for 30 minutes (covered), cool, add 1/2 gallon of 95% alcohol (Everclear, grain alcohol) into a large glass jar with the herbs (or split it into 2-4 smaller glass containers), shake, and leave it on a dark shelf (or bury it in the earth) for as long as you're willing--from 1 week to 2 months. Then strain, squeeze, and bottle for use.


The slower method:

Put the herbs, preferrably powdered, into 1-4 different glass containers (we like quart glass jars) and cover with a 30-50% alcohol (vodka, Everclear/water mix, distilled rice wine, or sake/vodka/grain alcohol mix). Put it on a dark shelf or bury it, leave it for 6-12 months. Strain off the alcohol and press the herbs in a muslin bag or pillowcase to get all of the liquid possible out, then bottle the Jow for use.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Why not just leave it brewing in the herbs till you are doen with all the jow?
In a bigger jar and then just transfer to smaller one as the need arises ?

[OTD]

You can, however, back in the late '50's - early 60's very large jars (1 - 2 gal)
were hard to come by. If you could find some they were usually very thinned
walled, and would easly break. On the other hand quart - 1/2 gallon mason jars
were cheap and could be found every where. Remember besides the alcohol cost
the herbs were hard to come byand costly (unless you were on the west coast) and money did not grow on trees.
OTD

[sanjuro_ronin]

You can, however, back in the late '50's - early 60's very large jars (1 - 2 gal)
were hard to come by. If you could find some they were usually very thinned
walled, and would easly break. On the other hand quart - 1/2 gallon mason jars
were cheap and could be found every where. Remember besides the alcohol cost
the herbs were hard to come byand costly (unless you were on the west coast) and money did not grow on trees.
OTD

Ah, cool, I understand.

[Dale Dugas]

Heavy metals taken out. It is a great general purpose Jow for Iron Palm, bruise healing, pain reducing, and circulation enhancing. Instructions are posted for 2 ways of making 1 gallon of the Jow.

For making approximately 1 gallon


Fu Zi--30 gm (1 oz. is 28 gm. For convenience, we say 30 gm)
Ban Xia--30 gm
Di Gu Pi--60 gm
Bai Bu--60 gm
Long Gu--30 gm (optional--this is heat-treated cow bone (dragon bone))
Tian Nan Xing--30 gm
Hong Hua--30 gm
She Chuang Zi--30 gm
Chuan Xiong--30 gm
Hua Jiao--15 gm--will be phased out due to new FDA restrictions
San Qi--15 gm
Xue Jie--30 gm
Ru Xiang--30 gm
Mo Yao--30 gm
Ding Xiang--30 gm
Dang Gui--30 gm
Da Huang--15 gm
Add separately after cooking:
Camphor/Borneol Crystals--15 gm
Menthol Crystals--15 gm


The total cost for the herbs listed above is $50.


The simple quick method for making this is to bring the herbs to a rolling boil in 1/2 gallon of water, simmer for 30 minutes (covered), cool, add 1/2 gallon of 95% alcohol (Everclear, grain alcohol) into a large glass jar with the herbs (or split it into 2-4 smaller glass containers), shake, and leave it on a dark shelf (or bury it in the earth) for as long as you're willing--from 1 week to 2 months. Then strain, squeeze, and bottle for use.


The slower method:

Put the herbs, preferrably powdered, into 1-4 different glass containers (we like quart glass jars) and cover with a 30-50% alcohol (vodka, Everclear/water mix, distilled rice wine, or sake/vodka/grain alcohol mix). Put it on a dark shelf or bury it, leave it for 6-12 months. Strain off the alcohol and press the herbs in a muslin bag or pillowcase to get all of the liquid possible out, then bottle the Jow for use.


again you post up formulas that are not your own as you mentioned in the PM you sent me.

The herbs in bold are toxic and extreme care should be taken before you use them in the amounts you suggest. You make no mention of using either the raw form or the prepared version as you do not know the difference.

You lack of herbal training/knowledge is showing through.

Stop posting recipes of which you have no experience with and no knowledge on preparation.

Whose website did you take this formula from?

When you take something and post it elsewhere you should add the information as you are trying to make it look like you know something.

Why not tell us how many years you have been studying and working with Chinese medicine?

[Dale Dugas]

Dale Dugas
Dit Da Jow Master Brewer

BTW there is more mercury in one tooth filling than in 10 gallons of this
Jow. I have PM you the site where this particular Wing Chun jow is
from.(It has been on the net since 1992 in one form or another)
I have no dog in this fight
OTD

Then why not cite the source of your recipe rather than post it with the assumption that you know what it is and all that it entails?

Why pose as someone who has direct herbal knowledge rather than being some nameless troll who is posting formula.

You and your actions are why I come down hard on topics such as this one. You and your lack of knowledge might cause problems to someone who assumes you know what you are doing.

Again I ask you to not only post formula you have no direct knowledge of and to cite where you get this information rather than post it like it is your own.

I am thinking you are young and have no direct training in Dit Da Ke other than what you are googling off the net.

[Dale Dugas]

This is the PM that OTD sent to me when I asked him to cite the sources of his formula.



Dale
Thanks for your reply, I should have tagged the link to the post.
BTW I have been doing Jow/herbs since the 40's no disrespect to your credentials. I notice that on your jow preprations you only post minimial info in the contents.. Do you put all the contents (but not the actual amounts) on the bottles when purchased by a customer?
Again thanks for reminding me in the future to put the actual link in the post
OTD

Since the 40's??.

Total and utter BS on that.

If you have been doing herbs since the 40's then why are you taking others formulas and trying to make it look to others that they are your own? Y

How old are you if you have been doing herbs since the 40's? It would seem you would have learned something, like what herbs are poisonous and dangerous to use unless you have learned how.

I would very much like to know who you are and how old you are.

Im thinking you are a young kid who is way out of his league.

[OTD]

Dale
Nowhere in either posting of jow formulas did I imply or inferr that they were mine.
I would like it very much to be young again. I also notices on you web site for your jows you do not give owner credit from the translations of "old" receipes
of the jows ?
OTD

[sanjuro_ronin]

Dale
Nowhere in either posting of jow formulas did I imply or inferr that they were mine.
I would like it very much to be young again. I also notices on you web site for your jows you do not give owner credit from the translations of "old" receipes
of the jows ?
OTD

The issue with putting out Jow info liek you did is that, you really should put out your own personal info too.
We all know Dale and his background, he puts his name there and here.
We know of his training with GM Chicoine and Sifu Painter.
You on the other hand, we don't know anything at all.

[Dale Dugas]

Dale
Nowhere in either posting of jow formulas did I imply or inferr that they were mine.
I would like it very much to be young again. I also notices on you web site for your jows you do not give owner credit from the translations of "old" receipes
of the jows ?
OTD


I got many formula from teachers and herbalists over the years and have tweaked them using my background to produce superior formulas that are my own.

Unlike yourself I have the skills and knowledge to know that the formulas you are posting about are dangerous in the hands of someone who does not know.

As Ronin pointed out Im all over and use my name and post up where I can be found and what I do and have done.

How about yourself?

Man enough to step up and be counted as real versus net persona?

[Dale Dugas]

Dale
Nowhere in either posting of jow formulas did I imply or inferr that they were mine.
I would like it very much to be young again. I also notices on you web site for your jows you do not give owner credit from the translations of "old" receipes
of the jows ?
OTD

Spelling and grammar and googled formulas without citation.

Im again thinking he is a young man who is seeking.

[Henry123]

I would be extremly cautious of using cinnabar. From what I see in the formula the dosage seems extremly high.

[herb ox]

Better for us to examine exactly why one formula is better or worse (or in the case of OTD's formula - nearly impossible to make) than to make personal judgements and accusations toward one another. Please be civil, gentlemen.

OTD - keep bringing the formulas, man. This forum is a stronghold of recipes, though none have been so eager to present a recipe as you. You see the lions at the gate rearing to go. If you can represent, please do so. Otherwise tread carefully, for the Fuzi in our jow has left some of us a bit crazy :D


I-spectfully,

herb ox

[Dale Dugas]

Better for us to examine exactly why one formula is better or worse (or in the case of OTD's formula - nearly impossible to make) than to make personal judgements and accusations toward one another. Please be civil, gentlemen.

OTD - keep bringing the formulas, man. This forum is a stronghold of recipes, though none have been so eager to present a recipe as you. You see the lions at the gate rearing to go. If you can represent, please do so. Otherwise tread carefully, for the Fuzi in our jow has left some of us a bit crazy :D


I-spectfully,

herb ox

Sorry cannot agree with you here Herb Ox as an another internet troll (I say troll here meaning it does not post any information as to who it is, what it has trained in, and what formal or informal training it has in the subject it is posting in.) with apparently nothing more than a degree in google posting up with formulas that are full of highly poisonous herbs that are posted in huge amounts. Anyone making and using these formulas could be seriously hurt as the levels are way out of sight.

Hence I called the troll on its seemingly total lack of basic herbal knowledge. Even the treated forms of the herbs in these formulas still have some level of toxicity that has to be treated with respect and caution.

All it did was fire back that it was sorry for not citing where it took these formulas from in the first place rather than address the issue of poisonous herbs and their actions. Its postings are speaking to us all and they are telling us that it cannot comment in any capacity other than post up to make it appear knowledgeable.

Someone has to step in and call foul rather than sit back and say its all right. It is not and that is why I posted up what I have.

OTD has no clue to these formulas as it would have posted that information in the first place, hence its non ability to represent.

Its comment about the amount of cinnabar in the formula it posted not being dangerous points to either glaringly lack of judgment skills or pure idiocy.

[herb ox]

Brother Dale,

A troll is a troll and would still be a troll by any other name. Trolls reveal themselves with little or no provocation, and derive great pleasure from inciting the responses of a few. All I'm saying is, if OTD is a troll, you're feeding him candy.

I agree with your vigilance, don't get me wrong. But I still feel that we need to "rise above". That being said, perhaps you'd like to elaborate as to why these herbs are harmful. 20% of the people I know take fuzi internally (granted, the population I hang with are mostly related to TCM somehow), and ban xia is often taken internally as well.

With your jow wisdom, I'd rather see posts suggesting alternatives to the poisonous herbs - this is practical and applicable to our arts. For example, how about substituting ding xiang (clove) for she xiang (musk - endangered and very rare)? Of course, the quantity would have to be increased greatly, and the effect still wouldn't be quite the same, but perhaps by adding another herb, like shi chang pu (calamus) we can approximate the effect and have a jow that is more environmentally conscious.

peace

herb ox

[GeneChing]

No where do we require anyone to reveal anything about their identities to the public on this forum. Just because OTD chooses to remain anonymous and you don't is not grounds to call him (or her) a troll. It terms of being a poor representative, OTD doesn't have to represent anyone but OTD. Just because you represent someone, don't expect others to do likewise. It might just be one of your own students or teachers, testing your civility. I doubt that in this case, but let's just say it's happened before and you should always proceed cautiously. Such is the nature of the forum. It's part masquerade. There's a lot of fun to be had in that, if you temper your approach with this firmly in sight.

Now we all know that cinnabar was widely used in TCM and still is in some places, so to jump on some one for using cinnabar so is a bit excessive. Cinnabar is the very root of that witch-doctor mumbo-jumbo snake oil you all foist as medicine. Ok, just kidding. Seriously, cinnabar lies at the very core of TCM. It's where we get the word dantian. There are plenty of other toxic elements in TCM. There may be even more that we haven't yet discovered. That seems very likely. That's a major problem with TCM.

But back to your reaction Dale, let's examine the possible scenarios. #1. OTD is a troll. If so, then once again, herb ox is right. You are feeding him/her candy. #2. OTD is a n00b. If this is so, demanding his/her lineage is absurd. When a new kid walks into class, dumping on him/her is not going to gain allegiance. A softer touch is required. We seek to educate. If he/she is "is a young man who is seeking" it's our job to point him/her in the right direction. Besides, aren't we all still seeking? #3. OTD is an experienced TCM person, just fresh off the boat and doesn't know the hazards of cinnabar. The n00b rules apply here, with only a slight modification. OTD has answered with civility but just chosen anonymity. If someone doesn't know either of you, OTD comes off much more rational than Dale. Fortunately, we know Dale. We also know of his cross dressing ways but we won't hold that against him.

herb ox brings up excellent points about endangered species and about suggesting substitutes. That's really the way to do it. Teach by example, not accusation.

[Dale Dugas]

Gene, Herb Ox and others:

I'm actually not trying to come across as a hater but more often than not it boils down to frustration at dealing with unknown people spouting information that is questionable on many levels. Of course these people can chose to remain hidden. That is their right.

What I get upset at is where unknown people plagiarize formulas from other sources not cited that are full of rather dangerous herbs when used topically let alone internally. OTD mentioned a formula that he admitted via pm he took from another site belonging to someone other than himself.

He has no direct experience with formulating or experimenting with that formula and the others he listed or he would have made reference to that fact.

It makes me worry that someone is going to get their hands on this formula and then use it and some can have seriously adverse reactions to the poisonous herbs listed in OTD's formulas.

30 grams of Tian Nan Xing is insane to use. I would never use anything over 10 grams in a 3 gallon formula.

It is sad to see OTD post up information that could possibly hurt another person without any reference to safety as it pertains to using classical formulations. It almost seems the OTD does not care.

Maybe OTD is not a troll and maybe he is. The point is you have to be careful with what you post up on the net as there are going to be people who are going to run with it and use it and they could be hurt or injured.

[GeneChing]

I also think that the notion of TCM plagiary is troublesome. This is an entirely different topic but just for fun, let's pursue it a little. I do a lot of volunteer work for the Haight Ashbury Free Clinics. Our guiding motto is "Health Care is a right, not a privilege". Taking that premise to heart, I believe in socialized medicine and that the American drug companies are holding us hostage worse than any illegal drug cartel I know. That's another topic - a don't-get-me-started topic - but my point is that one of the things that I like about TCM is that many of the low level herbal remedies are OTC (not to be confused with OTD). They are accessible by anyone who chooses to make them. You don't need a license to make tiedajiu. Anyone can. Of course, this opens Pandora's box when it comes to formulas that might include elements like cinnabar. Should herbal remedies be regulated? Some are clearly dangerous. Tiedajiu could even be fatal if your allergic. What level of self responsibility is there here?

Of course, your criticism is slanted heavily by a English-language ethnocentric perspective. All of these formulas are readily available in Chinese from multiple sources. So many classic TCM and martial treatises provide all sorts of wacky formulas which are readily accessed by anyone who reads Chinese. And the Chinese have been notorious plagiarists since they invented the printed word.

[herb ox]

Wow, bodhitree posted some herbs and nobody took notice but to start a battle over sources and ingredients... sheesh.

FWIW, I'd like to go back to bodhi's jow formula and take a closer look at the ingredients, though he said some were missing.



Xue Jie (red crystal substance, crushed into a powder)
Hong Hua
Notoginseng (root crushed into smaller pieces)
Da Huang
Chi Shao (Red Peony Root)
Mo Yao (crushed)


This is actually a pretty good starting point for a homebrew jow - all the ingredients (with exception of xue jie, which is getting expensive and harder to find) are readily available and have a reasonably high margin of safety.

Xue jie is the dried sap of the Daemonorops palm and is very effective for moving stagnant blood, esp. in the liver. I've taken it internally to remedy some pretty severe blood stag headaches.

Hong Hua regulates the blood - I'm surprised not to see Tao Ren in the formula, as it often is paired with Hong Hua for a stronger invigorate blood effect.

Notoginseng (San Qi) is revered for it's unique ability to both invigorate blood and stop bleeding. It is suspected that San Qi is the main ingredient in the famous Yunnan Paiyao blood clotting powder.

Da Huang is also a great blood mover, while stopping pain and cooling inflammation. This is the herb that'll likely stain your hands yellow (which I proudly wear :D)

Chi Shao nourishes the blood while invigorating it.

Mo Yao helps to break up stagnation while regenerating tissue - I'm surprised not to see Ru Xiang (mastic) partnered with it, as the mo yao, ru xiang, xue jie combo is also famous for its strong effects. In fact, I used a modified version of the "Big Three" along with some other herbs to quickly and completely heal a naaasty HUMAN bite wound on my arm - the flesh was completely destroyed from the sheer force of the bite and I believe my formula sped things up considerably, and no scarring remains, save for a bit of discoloration that is fading with time. As a further side note, I verified the blood moving properties during this incident when I removed the silver-dollar sized patty of my herbal plaster from the site of injury. Much to my amazement the next day, the area in contact with the plaster was completely free of bruising, while a severe, dark purple bruise surrounded the area. I expanded my plaster coverage accordingly, and 2 days later the bruise had all but faded from view.

The above herbs could easily be ground fine and made into a plaster as well, or taken as a draft internally for severe internal bruising.

peace

herb ox

[jow yeroc]

Great info. Thank you.

[Great Mender]

When using stallion urine, I always include 7 pcs. of big spiders (with 7 stars on the back) and 150 gr. of moss on shaded side of wall...

Just kidding!!!!!

[herb ox]

Ah, so you have heard of the secret forum-ula - just make sure the stallion is under the age of 10.

ox

[Drake]

Ok, folks, I am on Dale's side of the fence here. It's like if I were to walk up to a Soldier looking down the barrel of his rifle trying to clean it.

There is absolutely no excuse for suggesting toxic chemicals be used on a topical solution, especially mercury. I think we need to put aside the idea of hurting someone's feelings if that person is recommending harmful practices. We have gone past a civil disagreement to a situation where a novice could be harmed by following the directions.

As for the anonymous nature of the net, it's great when simply posting random anecdotes. However, when professional advice is given, it should be backed up by someone who has worked in the profession. This may be the net, but people still are obligated to back their proposed works. It's not a free for all.

[Royal Dragon]

Ok, I have a question.

What does Cinnabar actually do in the formula? Why is it there? What can be substituted for it's place?

Now, I have a Materia Medica and can look this up myself, HOWEVER I think due to the direction of this thread it may be a good idea for the more experienced and knowledgeable people here to offer some insite to this herb and it's uses, as well as why it should not be used today.

I think in the past it was not a well known fact that Mercury is poisonous over long term use...or they would not have used it even then.

However, since we know this now in modern times, It might be more productive for us to talk about what substitutes can be used to replace it as well.

[Dale Dugas]

Cinnabar helps to do a few things(at least according to theory)

Calms the Heart; Calms the Mind; Clears Heat; Expels toxins.

Clearing heat and expelling toxins is what I would see it being used in dit da formulas. You would want to get heat and swelling down. Toxins could also be causing problems with swelling and pain and getting rid of them would be warranted.

But you can use many other herbs in the materia medica that clear heat and expel toxins. Take your pick. Most formula were designed by herbalists in certain areas that had certain herbs.

Not all herbs were everywhere hence the wide variety of formula and herbs.

[Great Mender]

• 1 liter bottle of strong vodka, gin or Chinese rice wine
• Artemesia (Liu ji nu) - 5g
• Borneol (Bingpian) - 1g
• Carthamus (Honghua) - 5g
• Catechu (Ercha) - 8g
• Cinnabar (Zhusha) - 5g
• Cirsium (DaJi) - 1g
• Dragon's Blood (Xuejie) - 30g
• Mastic (Ruxiang) - 5g
• Musk (Shexiang) - 1g
• Myrrh (Moyao) - 5g
• Pinellia (ShengBanXia) - 5g

Grind up place in alcohol stir weekly ready on 60 days
really strong after 6 months. Keep out of open wounds
OTD


This is a Wing Chun Dit Da Jow, by Sifu John Crescione:
http://www.crocuta.net/crescioneOnJow.htm

[Royal Dragon]

Dale,
If you were to post a formula without posting the herbs themselves, but instead by posting thier function only, what would it look like?

[herb ox]

What does Cinnabar actually do in the formula? Why is it there? What can be substituted for it's place?


Mercury preparations have a strong antimicrobial action, and have been used in conventional medicine since the early 1900's (i.e. mercurochrome). So, mercury is not all bad. In fact, mercury's toxicity is largely dependent on its form.

My guess is the ancients found the cinnabar to prevent infection, and speed the healing of the microscopic wounds created as a result of training the hands. Also, it's "cold" properties mitigate the warm/hot herbs that largely comprise the formula and may simply have been found to prevent a rash from the other irritating herbs.

I don't think the cinnabar is used in this formula for calming the spirit :p But, the substance was highly regarded as the elixir of immortality, so I can see a symbolic (or even energetic) reason for its inclusion.

As for substitutions, I think I'd put Da Huang (Rhubarb) and Zi Ran Tong (Iron Pyrite). Both have cold energy and are used for treating traumatic injury. The Da Huang has the added benefit of an antibacterial action, while the Zi Ran Tong helps fractures to heal more quickly.

peace

herb ox

[GeneChing]

Stallion urine is allegedly high in a steriod-like compound (which we know is skin permeable from the Bonds case :p) so I've heard postulation that the legend of the stable boy being a stud might be founded in the exposure to horse pee. Stranger things have happened. Urine, particularly that of virgin boys, is a common element in many kung fu curatives. I'm disappointed that no one here picked up on the reference. :(

As for mercury, it is universally considered as a mystical element. If you look at almost ancient culture, it figures prominent as a common ingredient, particularly in the quest for the philosopher's stone, which is essentially what the external dan is in ancient TCM. That is the same dan as in dantian, and we all know where that research went, right? Dan means cinnabar. Given all this history, I'm really surprised it drew such a violent reaction, since anyone who knows there history, knows the origin.

Know your roots and culture.

[Royal Dragon]

I think it drew such a strong reaction because it's poisionus and we are supposed to know better because we are in modern times now. The ignorance of our ancestors is supposed to be log gone.

[GeneChing]

By "ignorance of our ancestors" do you mean that our ancestors were ignorant or that we are ignorant of our ancestors? Neither is long gone. Quite the opposite, I'd say. ;)

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Depends on the conversation. :D

[Seppukku]

I don't know why you guys buy stallion urine. Just go study Shaolin Ninjitsu, and you'll be ****ing out a goldmine.

[herb ox]

I mentioned the 10 year old stallion... Gene, I'm surprised YOU didn't catch the reference...:D

Actually, regarding the urine of a virgin boy... there's nothing mystical about it, but urine does have some medicinal qualities as supported by both Chinese medicine and Ayurveda. The idea behind the virginity aspect is that the urine should basically be free from diseases at that early age. Urine is sterile from healthy humans. However, it makes an excellent bacterial growth medium :p

Wait, haven't we had this discussion before?

ox

[GeneChing]

A colt is under 4. A 10 year old stallion is aged. :rolleyes:

Here's some urine therapy (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2843/is_3_23/ai_54600087)for you (but I think this thread is going the wrong direction now...)

[bodhitree]

A colt is under 4. A 10 year old stallion is aged. :rolleyes:

Here's some urine therapy (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2843/is_3_23/ai_54600087)for you (but I think this thread is going the wrong direction now...)



Iron Crotch and Golden Showers, THIS is what tcma is all about!

[sanjuro_ronin]

Iron Crotch and Golden Showers, THIS is what tcma is all about!

That's what I have been saying for years !!

[herb ox]

A colt is under 4. A 10 year old stallion is aged. :rolleyes:

Here's some urine therapy (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2843/is_3_23/ai_54600087)for you (but I think this thread is going the wrong direction now...)

...it's only 'cause you're leading us in that direction, Si-hing!

Interesting that Pliny the Elder concurs with the virginal urinal. Thanks for the link, Gene.

hey, now you can start saving all that earwax for something good, man! :D

how about an earwax and sesame oil based burn salve? :eek:

peace

ox

[TrollTerminator]

Then why not cite the source of your recipe rather than post it with the assumption that you know what it is and all that it entails?

Why pose as someone who has direct herbal knowledge rather than being some nameless troll who is posting formula.

You and your actions are why I come down hard on topics such as this one. You and your lack of knowledge might cause problems to someone who assumes you know what you are doing.

Again I ask you to not only post formula you have no direct knowledge of and to cite where you get this information rather than post it like it is your own.

I am thinking you are young and have no direct training in Dit Da Ke other than what you are googling off the net.

Do you not promote lead filled bags for striking??

[sanjuro_ronin]

Here we go:rolleyes:

[TrollTerminator]

Here we go:rolleyes:

Don't worry I'm not trying to start anything....just making a point, nobody is perfect.....I have the utmost respect for Dale and one of his teachers Dr. Painter...I'm very familiar with both, BUT Dale is being very arrogant and critical in this situation....instead of showing his Knowledge and sharing he's showing his a$$. I know OTD personally......he's not a young idiot (like Dale is ASSUMING)....he's older than dirt:) and is more aware than you think....he also never claimed those formula's were his and stated they came from the web along with tons of others.
Instead of being so critical Dale, why didn't you make your sugestions to why you felt these formula's were bad and how they could be corrected....or are you to worried about selling your OWN formula (you would sell more with a nicer attitude). I still respect Dale's knowledge, but not his attitude.....I also respect OTD's....he's healed a lot of my aches and pains.

I hope this can turn into a educational discussion and get rid of the arrogance.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Don't worry I'm not trying to start anything....just making a point, nobody is perfect.....I have the utmost respect for Dale and one of his teachers Dr. Painter...I'm very familiar with both, BUT Dale is being very arrogant and critical in this situation....instead of showing his Knowledge and sharing he's showing his a$$. I know OTD personally......he's not a young idiot (like Dale is ASSUMING)....he's older than dirt:) and is more aware than you think....he also never claimed those formula's were his and stated they came from the web along with tons of others.
Instead of being so critical Dale, why didn't you make your sugestions to why you felt these formula's were bad and how they could be corrected....or are you to worried about selling your OWN formula (you would sell more with a nicer attitude). I still respect Dale's knowledge, but not his attitude.....I also respect OTD's....he's healed a lot of my aches and pains.

I hope this can turn into a educational discussion and get rid of the arrogance.

Point taken.

[Dale Dugas]

TT,

I really do not know what to say about your passive aggressive attitude that is aimed at me.

You and OTD have not identified yourselves. Have not talked about backgrounds. Leave out all contact information and expect people to take you at your word.

Why?

If OTD and yourself have nothing to hide than why do so?

If you or OTD do not come forward and introduce yourself than why should I or anyone else for that matter give you any respect? You are showing us here on the board that you would rather troll and larp then step up and be recognized as true members of the forum.

You could be the same person trying to drum up support of yourself using another username.

taking formulas from others without citing them is rather childish. Why not post the information and ask about it rather than post it like this is a formula from your tradition and having direct experience with it.

Just want to know who I am dealing with. You want to call that arrogant, go right ahead. I treat others according to their own needs and you and OTD needed to be asked the questions that I asked.

Being that OTD left and you have appeared on the scene to defend him, people are going to assume you are one and the same person.

What say you to that?

[OTD]

Dale
I have not left, nor am I using another 'nom de plume'. I have just chosen not to
enter into any more discussions with any of the other honorable members on this
subject. My humble apologies to any one that thinks they might have been offended by any of my posts sans credits.
OTD

[TrollTerminator]

TT,

I really do not know what to say about your passive aggressive attitude that is aimed at me.

I was surprised by your attitude.....especially with your credentials

You and OTD have not identified yourselves. Have not talked about backgrounds. Leave out all contact information and expect people to take you at your word.

I have not made a statement that involves anybody taking me at my word

Why?

If OTD and yourself have nothing to hide than why do so?
Exactly what do you think I'm hiding from?

If you or OTD do not come forward and introduce yourself than why should I or anyone else for that matter give you any respect? You are showing us here on the board that you would rather troll and larp then step up and be recognized as true members of the forum.

I'm not asking anyone for their respect...I'm not trolling or larping....I was hoping to learn something here....I was taken back by your attitude

You could be the same person trying to drum up support of yourself using another username.

:confused: insecurity?

taking formulas from others without citing them is rather childish. Why not post the information and ask about it rather than post it like this is a formula from your tradition and having direct experience with it.

I can't find in the post where OTD did this & You don't cite where the base of your formulas come from

Just want to know who I am dealing with. You want to call that arrogant, go right ahead. I treat others according to their own needs and you and OTD needed to be asked the questions that I asked.

I really don't think your dealing with anybody that's trying to step on your toes

Being that OTD left and you have appeared on the scene to defend him, people are going to assume you are one and the same person.

What say you to that?

ASS U ME NO ONE has or wants to ATTACK YOU Dale

[Dale Dugas]

nice way to derail the thread.

It seems Kemo and friends are back in town.

Anytime you two want to talk about herbs feel free to call me or come visit me. Many have and its a great time to share.


617-595-8097

you can also see me at this years Zhang Sang Feng Festival where I will be teaching Dit Da for Martial Artists and other workshops. For more information visit: Zhang Sang Feng Festival (http://www.taichifest.com/home/index.php)

I asked for more information due to the fact I like knowing who I am addressing. You two obviously do not have the maturity to step up.

I wish the two of you success in your training.

[TrollTerminator]

nice way to derail the thread.

It seems Kemo and friends are back in town.

Anytime you two want to talk about herbs feel free to call me or come visit me. Many have and its a great time to share.


617-595-8097

you can also see me at this years Zhang Sang Feng Festival where I will be teaching Dit Da for Martial Artists and other workshops. For more information visit: Zhang Sang Feng Festival (http://www.taichifest.com/home/index.php)

I asked for more information due to the fact I like knowing who I am addressing. You two obviously do not have the maturity to step up.

I wish the two of you success in your training.

FYI I do not want to high jack this thread and want nothing to do with kemo.....I'm sorry my anonymity bothers you....it is not directed toward you in any fashion and has nothing to do with maturity.....nobody has questioned your knowledge...I receive your news letter and plan someday to attend your workshops (if you teach by being so critical of people...that does concern me) and to visit the Gompa. One thing to know, I'm not trying to sell anything or promote a certain system or way of doing things......I would like this thread to continue with open minds and civil discussions......leave the attitudes to the trolls.:)

[Royal Dragon]

I don't mean to hijack the thread or anything, but has anyone given any thought to my previous question?

Instead of listing the herbs in the formula, list the function they serve according to Chinese medicine. That way those of us with Materia medicas can look them up and do some more study and add to the discussion.

For example, lets say there are herbs that "Clear heat". Can we use a variety of those herbs, of our own choosing? Or will only the specific one for that formula work?

By discussing the underlying principals in the creation of these formulas, we can then learn so as to be able to create our own as well as copy others.

Or was my question ignored because none of you are educated enough to look at things on that level and thus prefer to engage in ****ing contests?

[herb ox]

Thanks, RD. I'm with you, man. Seems some folks just can't get enough of trolling and biting. Please re-hijack the thread and keep it on topic.

To TrollTerminator, OTD and DaleDugas - gentlemen, CHILL OUT! If you can't play nice, please leave the playground (or get your @$$ bounced out!). It's too easy for us to argue over these minor details with such zeal as we sit behind our computer screens. We're all anonymous here and can make whatever bold claims without verification so stop wasting your time trying to prove the lack of credibility of others. Seek instead to prove your own credibility through virtuous behavior and a kind demeanor. The personal credibility 'thread' is done - I don't want to hear anymore of it. Go practice your horse stance instead.

peace out

herb ox

[GeneChing]

The troll or the trollbaiter? Maybe it's the trollsucka.

Can we go back to discussing the medical uses of pee now? :rolleyes:

[TrollTerminator]

Thanks, RD. I'm with you, man. Seems some folks just can't get enough of trolling and biting. Please re-hijack the thread and keep it on topic.

To TrollTerminator, OTD and DaleDugas - gentlemen, CHILL OUT! If you can't play nice, please leave the playground (or get your @$$ bounced out!). It's too easy for us to argue over these minor details with such zeal as we sit behind our computer screens. We're all anonymous here and can make whatever bold claims without verification so stop wasting your time trying to prove the lack of credibility of others. Seek instead to prove your own credibility through virtuous behavior and a kind demeanor. The personal credibility 'thread' is done - I don't want to hear anymore of it. Go practice your horse stance instead.

peace out

herb ox

Thank You herb & RD, I would like to hear more on your topic

[Dale Dugas]

What formula are you talking about RD?

This one:

Fu Zi--30 gm (1 oz. is 28 gm. For convenience, we say 30 gm)
Ban Xia--30 gm
Di Gu Pi--60 gm
Bai Bu--60 gm
Long Gu--30 gm (optional--this is heat-treated cow bone (dragon bone))
Tian Nan Xing--30 gm
Hong Hua--30 gm
She Chuang Zi--30 gm
Chuan Xiong--30 gm
Hua Jiao--15 gm--will be phased out due to new FDA restrictions
San Qi--15 gm
Xue Jie--30 gm
Ru Xiang--30 gm
Mo Yao--30 gm
Ding Xiang--30 gm
Dang Gui--30 gm
Da Huang--15 gm
Add separately after cooking:
Camphor/Borneol Crystals--15 gm
Menthol Crystals--15 gm

Or this one:

• Artemesia (Liu ji nu) - 5g
• Borneol (Bingpian) - 1g
• Carthamus (Honghua) - 5g
• Catechu (Ercha) - 8g
• Cinnabar (Zhusha) - 5g
• Cirsium (DaJi) - 1g
• Dragon's Blood (Xuejie) - 30g
• Mastic (Ruxiang) - 5g
• Musk (Shexiang) - 1g
• Myrrh (Moyao) - 5g
• Pinellia (ShengBanXia) - 5g

[TrollTerminator]

What formula are you talking about RD?

This one:

Fu Zi--30 gm (1 oz. is 28 gm. For convenience, we say 30 gm)
Ban Xia--30 gm
Di Gu Pi--60 gm
Bai Bu--60 gm
Long Gu--30 gm (optional--this is heat-treated cow bone (dragon bone))
Tian Nan Xing--30 gm
Hong Hua--30 gm
She Chuang Zi--30 gm
Chuan Xiong--30 gm
Hua Jiao--15 gm--will be phased out due to new FDA restrictions
San Qi--15 gm
Xue Jie--30 gm
Ru Xiang--30 gm
Mo Yao--30 gm
Ding Xiang--30 gm
Dang Gui--30 gm
Da Huang--15 gm
Add separately after cooking:
Camphor/Borneol Crystals--15 gm
Menthol Crystals--15 gm

Or this one:

• Artemesia (Liu ji nu) - 5g
• Borneol (Bingpian) - 1g
• Carthamus (Honghua) - 5g
• Catechu (Ercha) - 8g
• Cinnabar (Zhusha) - 5g
• Cirsium (DaJi) - 1g
• Dragon's Blood (Xuejie) - 30g
• Mastic (Ruxiang) - 5g
• Musk (Shexiang) - 1g
• Myrrh (Moyao) - 5g
• Pinellia (ShengBanXia) - 5g

How about both....since there is the above & other old out dated formulas all over the web.....please break it down and let us know what subs would work for what you might consider the dangerous herbs. Also what about western counterparts for the TCM herbs.
TT

[Dale Dugas]

I will do one at a time and talk about all the subs.

Ill get this done over the weekend as Im running to teach..

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

What formula are you talking about RD?

Reply]
It doesn't really matter, any good IP formula would be fine to disect by the herbs effect rather than looking at the herb itself. It would be a good exercise I think.

Also, what is the deal with this?

Hua Jiao--15 gm--will be phased out due to new FDA restrictions

[herb ox]

Yeah, I've heard nothing about FDA restrictions on hua jiao (pericarpum zanthoxylum bungeanum) - I do my best to stay abreast of these developments... . Hua Jiao / Chuan Jiao is Szechwan Pepper and has been used as a flavoring spice as well as an herb with tremendous powers in Chinese culture for ages. Uh, by the way, it's not really a pepper...

It was, however, already banned for some years by the FDA not because of toxicity to humans, but rather it carried a virus that could potentially wipe out our citrus crops. That ban was lifted in 2005 when it was found that the virus could easily be killed by pasteurizing the hulls at 161F.

In any case, the FDA should be more concerned about the metabolized byproducts of MSG, hydrolyzed vegetable protein and aspartame. These are the dirty secrets of the food industry that they don't want you to know.

peace

herb ox

[jow yeroc]

How about a quick enlightenment bro herb ox about aspartame, MSG etc? Please.

[herb ox]

just do a google search for "excitotoxins" or "russell blaylock" - the first term describes the metabolic byproducts as they affect the nervous system by overstimulating it - this is the case with MSG, aspartame (nutrasweet), and hydrolyzed vegetable protein. The second term - "blaylock" is the name of the neurosurgeon who is trying to shake up the food industry. He published a book that makes a very convincing argument and is quite well documented and researched.

check it

ox

[Royal Dragon]

Wow, this conversation just died.....

[TrollTerminator]

Wow, this conversation just died.....

No Kidding....I was looking foward to Dale breaking down the herbs and offering replacements for the ones considered toxic...or anything regarding useful herbs....I'm really interested in American replacements that can be grown or collected naturally.

Also if I p!ssed Dale off I'm sorry...that was not my intent....only wanted respectful conversation....we're all brothers.
TT

[Dale Dugas]

sorry as I have been out of town training with my shifu.

Im also in nursing school working and teaching dit da and martial arts to students and I dont have much free time. Ill get back to this sometime in the near future when I have a minute.

You can also come learn from me over a weekend...

[TrollTerminator]

sorry as I have been out of town training with my shifu.

Im also in nursing school working and teaching dit da and martial arts to students and I dont have much free time. Ill get back to this sometime in the near future when I have a minute.

You can also come learn from me over a weekend...

I plan to do that someday...I don't have much free time either....your workshops are far away from me, so sometimes I have to take what I can get.
Best,
TT

[dougadam]

Could the red substance be capsicum?

[GeneChing]

Speaking of Master Frank Yee (and his dit da jow recipe (https://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?1855-Frank-Yee-s-dit-da-jow-Is-it-any-good&p=1325645#post1325645)), he was on our May+June 2006 cover (https://www.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=650)

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/images/ezine/Cov2006_3.jpg

https://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?49671-So-I-got-to-make-dit-da-jow-the-other-day
Frank-Yee-s-dit-da-jow-Is-it-any-good (https://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?1855-Frank-Yee-s-dit-da-jow-Is-it-any-good)