Technical Question for Grabbing Scenarios

[Ao Qin]

Hello Everyone,

I have a techincal question I'd appreciate some advice on. This is the scenario..."if someone grabbed you"...what would you do...assuming you want to escape without striking the person.

I've been practicing TCKF for over 20 years (focusing in Lung Ying / Bak Mei - a lot of chin-na). My first instinct is NOT to let someone grab me by evading, or counter-grabbing (or using the grab against them but pulling / pushing & then striking, etc. - I want to "touch them" I don't want the otherwise). Dragoners love to reach out and grab someone & never let them go. And yes, I've studied Judo...but not sport / combative Jiu-Jitsu.

I've also been teaching Nonviolent Crisis Intervention for over 10 years. This institution teaches that ANY grab can be countered using the following three principles; look for the weak point, use leverage, and use momentum (also a psychological advantage as they have grabbed you & commited and you still have options, + you can use an element of distraction / surprise).

So...given a simplistic scenario...someone grabs your wrist - you shift your weight, go against the weak-point (thumb connection), use leverage & momentum & pull out of it. I know beyond a doubt this "trick" works against the strongest and heaviest people.

My long-winded question to those who grapple / fight in reality (combative sports / law-enforcement types), is, are these universal principles work in all "grabbing" / locking situations? Is this simplistic formula brilliantly simplistic or just simplistic?

If you respond, please elaborate - don't just say simplistic because that won't help me very much.

Thank you!

Ao Qin

[Egg fu young]

.

My long-winded question to those who grapple / fight in reality (combative sports / law-enforcement types), is, are these universal principles work in all "grabbing" / locking situations? Is this simplistic formula brilliantly simplistic or just simplistic?

If you respond, please elaborate - don't just say simplistic because that won't help me very much.

Thank you!

Ao Qin

No principle works in all "grabbing" / locking situations. The Aikido guys have a good basis with the wrist locks/control. The 2 Law enforcement Academies I've attended taught only Aikido techniques. I think it works because it's easy to learn and easy for them to teach groups of noob's. Advanced Aikido is of course more complex. I have my Brown belt in Judo and I dont ever remember being taught small joint manipulation although I watched a small circle jujitsu seminar that was almost all small joint manipulation as it applied to grabbing situations. Ive seen forum debates on why MMA doesnt allow wrist locks and finger holds and I cant argue the point but I do know they work "if" your able to get one.


I guess I'm going with relatively simplistic

[rogue]

To state the obvious... Generally a grab is initiating something; a strike, off balancing or to hold you in place. Each can effect how well the technique works or what you should do.

[Yum Cha]

If you are looking for non-violent alternatives, the first that comes to mind is a vocal reaction, loud and direct. Women are often taught to make it loud shrill to shock a non comitted attacker into retreat.

Non-comitted being the key word.

You already have a spot-on understanding of how to break a grip, but the problem is that you can't tell if its just a grab or an initiation of a grapple until its too late.

Personally, whenever someone puts a hand on me, I immediately focus on the hole left in there defense by the use of that hand, and that's where I'd strike them.

Other than that, not much I can add to your already pretty thorough understanding.

[monji112000]

Hello Everyone,

I have a techincal question I'd appreciate some advice on. This is the scenario..."if someone grabbed you"...what would you do...assuming you want to escape without striking the person.

I've been practicing TCKF for over 20 years (focusing in Lung Ying / Bak Mei - a lot of chin-na). My first instinct is NOT to let someone grab me by evading, or counter-grabbing (or using the grab against them but pulling / pushing & then striking, etc. - I want to "touch them" I don't want the otherwise). Dragoners love to reach out and grab someone & never let them go. And yes, I've studied Judo...but not sport / combative Jiu-Jitsu.

I've also been teaching Nonviolent Crisis Intervention for over 10 years. This institution teaches that ANY grab can be countered using the following three principles; look for the weak point, use leverage, and use momentum (also a psychological advantage as they have grabbed you & commited and you still have options, + you can use an element of distraction / surprise).

So...given a simplistic scenario...someone grabs your wrist - you shift your weight, go against the weak-point (thumb connection), use leverage & momentum & pull out of it. I know beyond a doubt this "trick" works against the strongest and heaviest people.

My long-winded question to those who grapple / fight in reality (combative sports / law-enforcement types), is, are these universal principles work in all "grabbing" / locking situations? Is this simplistic formula brilliantly simplistic or just simplistic?

If you respond, please elaborate - don't just say simplistic because that won't help me very much.

Thank you!

Ao Qin

its almost impossible to answer this without a video of the example. You said you didn't want to strike the person... why?

I find it hard to believe anyone hasn't been in situations were this doesn't happen. Everyone knows if someone grabs your hand you turn your hand. What if he is too strong? So many possibilities exist, its hard to say. I wouldn't say strike, but it may be your best option, given the situation. I have found that using small joints, ball kicking, eye gouging can work effectively as a setup for other techniques. I don't think you will find any special "principles" that will work on any person no matter the situation.. lets be realistic.

[LeeCasebolt]

its almost impossible to answer this without a video of the example. You said you didn't want to strike the person... why?

Fear of legal repercussions, identity of the person in question (e.g. family), personal preference.


I don't think you will find any special "principles" that will work on any person no matter the situation.. lets be realistic.

Principles speak to generalities and trends. There is no "always" but there is a "usually". Principles are simplifications. Alone, they don't tell you very much, but informed with even a few basic techniques, an understanding of principles can allow the student to adapt to a situation for which he has no set technique. Judo, for example, teaches "push when pulled, pull when pushed" as a means of countering force with technical expertise. Well and good, but not particularly helpful without any sort of technical understanding of the mechanics of throwing. Learning a couple of throws alone isn't all that useful, either. Putting the two together - an understanding of the principle and a grounding in fundamental technique - and the student can throw in a wider variety of situations than he has actually faced.

To answer the original question, the principles listed are sound, so long as they're backed by technical knowledge. You can't tell someone "work against the weak point" and leave it at that. Show them the weak point of a wrist grab, a lapel grab, a head lock. Show them how to generate momentum and leverage against each of those holds. When they understand how the principles are actualized through the techniques, *then* they begin to understand the principles in a meaningful way. At that point, they can extrapolate new techniques from the principles.

[WinterPalm]

In my experience at work dealing with some pretty rough edged people, there are several things I try to do when dealing with this type of situation.
Keep in mind this is from a professional perspective:

1.) All my sense must be attuned adjusted to be in direct awareness of the person. That means that I must be facing them and if not, will strive to have my body pointed towards their's in any position, standing or ground.

2.) Grab something...anything. Hold tight and attempt to take their side or back so that I am outside or lateral to their arm, leg, etc...taking the back is preferred but not always possible. Pull them close if they are strong or attempt to control and manipulate any joint...because this is very hard to do without a brace, use the wall or sweep them to the ground maintaining the hold and minimal bodily contact...quite often as someone goes down, the ability to further lock up their arm, etc, is possible.

I maintain distance because of the possibility of weapons and needles. Quite often the people I deal with have weapons and many have any range of STD's including two recent individuals with HIV.

So...given a simplistic scenario...someone grabs your wrist - you shift your weight, go against the weak-point (thumb connection), use leverage & momentum & pull out of it. I know beyond a doubt this "trick" works against the strongest and heaviest people.

The area where this is the most fun is not the strongest or biggest but the more skilled and competent. Most on the street are not familiar with these techniques...

Not to derail...but what about the opposite? You're dealing with an aggressive person that does not want to go with you and you have to close the distance and grab them and restrain them? Defense, IMO, is easier than being the aggressor in this case.
What do you guys think about this?

[LeeCasebolt]

What do you guys think about this?

It's either very easy or very hard, depending on whether or not you're willing to hurt them. If you're not (and that's true of most "restraint" scenarios, in my experience), even if your target isn't any good. Still, I think an approach similar to what you just outlined applies - keep alert, close the distance, control a limb, take a dominant position. That can mean putting them on the ground (usually easier to control them, but sometimes undesirable for other reasons) or taking their side or back standing.

*Keeping* control while they flail around is the fun part.

[Merryprankster]

While it's not a bad list, I disagree with the idea of momentum. You may not be able to generate any. Part of good grappling is shutting down movement.

So finding the weak spot - check

Using leverage - check

Momentum? Eh, not so much.

I don't know that it's brilliantly or overly simple. You could make a lot of these types of lists. It's certainly one, reasonably valid perspective. If I were working with that list, I might replace momentum with structure.... i dunno.

[Becca]

Not to derail...but what about the opposite? You're dealing with an aggressive person that does not want to go with you and you have to close the distance and grab them and restrain them? Defense, IMO, is easier than being the aggressor in this case.
What do you guys think about this?
If the one doing the detaining is well trained and the detainee is just the average person off the street, then no. My kid brother traid going after our mom when he was a teen. Mom, after working for years in a nursing home psyc ward, had abbsolutly no problem dodging him then subduing him till he calmed down... and she's only 4'11" weighing maby 125 lbs!

Now it the detainee is experienced in getting out of holds, they very likely will. But the average person just isn't IMO.

[Black Jack II]

The goof part about a lot of grab defenses and what makes them a tad on the bogus role-playing side is people forget about the intent of why a person is grabbing you in the first place and the holds are often far to static.

Most street grabs are entry methods to beating the snot out of the target, headlock to a flurry of punches in the face, headlock to a dump headfirst into a wall, headlock as a distraction to a knife in the gut, bear hug to a slam, wrist grab to a distraction leading to a punch or a quick pull into a knife, that type of thing.

In a number of school's you just see peeps doing the standard, headlock...1...2...3escape crap without any intent on the play attackers part.

[WinterPalm]

If the one doing the detaining is well trained and the detainee is just the average person off the street, then no. My kid brother traid going after our mom when he was a teen. Mom, after working for years in a nursing home psyc ward, had abbsolutly no problem dodging him then subduing him till he calmed down... and she's only 4'11" weighing maby 125 lbs!

Now it the detainee is experienced in getting out of holds, they very likely will. But the average person just isn't IMO.

I hear what you're saying. I'm talking about someone not coming at you but forcing you to make the initial move to close the space and restrain them...plus you cannot hurt them. They are aggressive and very, very unwilling to go with you. I've had situations where three guys, untrained, against one guy were having a hell of a time. Taking someone down is a whole other story compared to one attacking you.

[mantis108]

Hello Everyone,

I have a techincal question I'd appreciate some advice on. This is the scenario..."if someone grabbed you"...what would you do...assuming you want to escape without striking the person.

I've been practicing TCKF for over 20 years (focusing in Lung Ying / Bak Mei - a lot of chin-na). My first instinct is NOT to let someone grab me by evading, or counter-grabbing (or using the grab against them but pulling / pushing & then striking, etc. - I want to "touch them" I don't want the otherwise). Dragoners love to reach out and grab someone & never let them go. And yes, I've studied Judo...but not sport / combative Jiu-Jitsu.

I've also been teaching Nonviolent Crisis Intervention for over 10 years. This institution teaches that ANY grab can be countered using the following three principles; look for the weak point, use leverage, and use momentum (also a psychological advantage as they have grabbed you & commited and you still have options, + you can use an element of distraction / surprise).

So...given a simplistic scenario...someone grabs your wrist - you shift your weight, go against the weak-point (thumb connection), use leverage & momentum & pull out of it. I know beyond a doubt this "trick" works against the strongest and heaviest people.

My long-winded question to those who grapple / fight in reality (combative sports / law-enforcement types), is, are these universal principles work in all "grabbing" / locking situations? Is this simplistic formula brilliantly simplistic or just simplistic?

If you respond, please elaborate - don't just say simplistic because that won't help me very much.

Thank you!

Ao Qin

Hi Kevin,

Hope all is well with you. :)

I would agreed with MP that structure is important. I think it really depends on what is the intent and/or follow up of countering the grab. To flight or to fight? That's the question. What you have described:


So...given a simplistic scenario...someone grabs your wrist - you shift your weight, go against the weak-point (thumb connection), use leverage & momentum & pull out of it. I know beyond a doubt this "trick" works against the strongest and heaviest people.

is actually the reversed order of your list:

"ANY grab can be countered using the following three principles; look for the weak point, use leverage, and use momentum (also a psychological advantage as they have grabbed you & commited and you still have options, + you can use an element of distraction / surprise)."

Momentum and/or structure should be the first of the three priniples. It is the point of the triangle so to speak; while, leverage and weak-point are the flanks. In a flight situation, your goal is to dislodge and disengage as quickly as possible. Using momentum especially for a smaller size person is a smart strategy no matter standing or on the ground. You don't want to be pinned in any fashion period. As for fighting back (reversal of a grab into follow ups of a finishing hold or knock out), having structure is very important. Structure will help to develop a good position which is needed if Chin Na and/or wrestling/grappling is the intent. For Chin Na, you must try to break the posture of your opponent, which essential is to destroy his structure and balance through the manipulation of his various joints that is to say using leverage and weak points against him.

I believe others have already mentioned the unrealistic training mentality that leads to the complete ineffectiveness of Chin Na based self defense program(s). So I am not going to bash the dead horse. Personally, is not that Chin Na is ineffective; rather it is the teaching method of it. I generally recommend people to learn a bit of wrestling/clinching or even better Shuai Jiao before working with Chin Na these days. That's my take.

Warm regards

Robert (Mantis108)

[the Preacher]

more specialized training in these techniques is available here

Fan Qin Na (http://www.houstonshaolintemple.com/)

for the LEO

KFL chin na fa (http://www.kungfulibrary.com/shaolin-chin-na.htm)

[Becca]

I hear what you're saying. I'm talking about someone not coming at you but forcing you to make the initial move to close the space and restrain them...plus you cannot hurt them. They are aggressive and very, very unwilling to go with you. I've had situations where three guys, untrained, against one guy were having a hell of a time. Taking someone down is a whole other story compared to one attacking you.
You think my brother, in the middle of a fit, was willing to be subdued? Or that my mom wanted to hurt him? The only thing missing was that he was activly attacking my mom. But he still "forced" her to act. I can asure you he was being very aggresssive and was not the least bit willing. He also had no problem with the idea of hutring her.

I'm going to guess you are speeking more of a police or security officer needing to subdue someone who is being violent, but not acting against the officer directly? It does change things, but not too signifigantly I think. Training designed to subdue a violent individule should, and usually does, include training for the perp to be focused on the detainer as well as if the perp is focused elsewere.

I just don't feel the average person out there would have any clue how to stop a properly applied submission. That is not to say everyone out there actually knows how to properly apply submissions or that they keep up on the training.

[Takuan]

So...given a simplistic scenario...someone grabs your wrist - you shift your weight, go against the weak-point (thumb connection), use leverage & momentum & pull out of it. I know beyond a doubt this "trick" works against the strongest and heaviest people.


Wrong. You deck him in the face as hard as you can with your free arm. :)

[David Jamieson]

cops, bouncers and wrestlers would have answers to some of this.

chin na is almost always trained in an overtly controlled environment.

if you break out the "likely" stuff such as collar grabs with a full push, maul grabs, head grabs and work with real intense attacks, you can focus your chin na into the most likely situations.

wrist grabs really aren't terribly common. not saying they don't happen, just saying that short power often is the ticket on the street percussive bursts thrown at you, a lot of changes in what is being grabbed and if it goes long, then the long power starts to kick in where you have sustained holds on the ground to prevent strikes from coming in.

but, start at the start with newbs and work up to the more intense rbsd stuff when folks are comfy with their ability.

[No_Know]

Leverage and force or Leverage and subtlty might better be the list.

I think you said standard things. You should not Find the weak spot/point, but must go straight to working on it. There's only so many ways and understanding should be that you do not spend moments searching trying or thinking of where is the weak spot/area.

You might should get an Oh Sh...oot! feeling that a lock is being attempted. Then react according ly to Not being there. If locked utilize the already understood mechanics for that joint with that force reading into or factoring into it the changes in pressure and that the person will moveinto another technique--folding--keeping this locxk then putting a greater hurting on you.

It seems minimal might be appropriate leverage then force/subtlety.

Leverage per area is a learened/studied thing. but might need to bottomline be instinctual to go to when lock type moves are noticed conciously or subconciously.

No offense intended.

If I'm not a reality fight type person--as I merely theorize-ish, when you get done with them look at my say and hopefully there's something there for you.

I No_Know

[Water Dragon]

Yeah, the idea of circling your hand to break a grip works. I've used it to break grips in Shuai Chiao, BJJ, MMA, and Judo, so they even work in a gi. The key is not momentum, but body mechanics; and for what you're teaching it for, footwork. You need to use the footwork to get the body to move right if you want a woman to be able to do this to a stronger man.

You need to be thinking about what happens after she breaks the grips. I hope you're not foolish enough to try and teach a woman to fight a man. You need to work on escape methods.

Of all the women's self defense "Counters" I've seen, the only one I've ever put any stock in was the old butcher knife in the shopping bag trick.

[WinterPalm]

You think my brother, in the middle of a fit, was willing to be subdued? Or that my mom wanted to hurt him? The only thing missing was that he was activly attacking my mom. But he still "forced" her to act. I can asure you he was being very aggresssive and was not the least bit willing. He also had no problem with the idea of hutring her.

I'm going to guess you are speeking more of a police or security officer needing to subdue someone who is being violent, but not acting against the officer directly? It does change things, but not too signifigantly I think. Training designed to subdue a violent individule should, and usually does, include training for the perp to be focused on the detainer as well as if the perp is focused elsewere.

I just don't feel the average person out there would have any clue how to stop a properly applied submission. That is not to say everyone out there actually knows how to properly apply submissions or that they keep up on the training.

Yeah, I was talking more from a security perspective. Otherwise let them have it with a 1-2 and a kick to the groin!

I don't doubt the seriousness but I feel closing the gap is a different story in a situation where you are limited but the other is not. Of course, realistically, a shot here and there isn't going to be the end of the world...but in today's world of cameras and video, you could end up being the aggressor and lose your job.

[Ao Qin]

Thank you to everyone for responding to my question - I haven't had time yet to digest all the response but I do appreciate the feedback!

Just to clarify - I work within social services, so I can't hit someone back without losing my job (and I have the mortgage, two kids, home, etc.). I'm trying to understand the basic / raw / fundamental "principles" of getting out of a grab (according to the definitions I posted) without harming my assailant. From everything I've read / saw / experienced, the theory of "look for the weakness, use momentum / leverage" seems fairly valid. More latter...

Cheers - AQ

[No_Know]

You seem to be looking for the most basic. I wonder what you think of when you say momentum.

Momentum involving moving...I think you might be good with the formula you have but there can at least sometimes be more to the World than we think/understand--Be mindful of to where you move...Your new positioning...don't escape then be proud, Pride is a distraction. your point might be to get out of the grab type thing, but there is always thinking especially if you best them perhaps until they are away from you it is not necessarily over.

Don't win the battle just to lose the One battle that turns the tide and you lose the long-term try.

My say is comprehend where you'd like to end-up or at least note daner places so when you get guided there you might get to try to do something to avert their guiding.

You have your great resposibilities and very commendable attempt at understanding. I do not have the reality as you do. I did think it mattered.

Good luck/prayers/good hope.

Also, I see that that a grab can be closed--fingers overlap, open what is grabbed is bigger than there hand can close-on; assisted close--a sleeper hold (from shoulder to hand is a "V" usually applied to a head or neck...I call this assisted close all grabs might fall into these three categories.

A person can force the grab more closed to seperate a one joint grab (involving wrist, thumb, elbow, knee, ankle. You in your usual likeliness won't need all these but...

Multiple joint grab--Fingers/hand; pull apart, flex to loosen grab--an open hand.. A closed hand is good before jerkingtoward the opening.

The wrist is a joint. Too flexible for leverage. Firm the bridge between hand and forearm.

Force your fist or tense spearhandor tense open hand through, thrust through the grab. A twist during the thrust might benefit.

No_Know

[Ao Qin]

Again, thanks to everyone for responding to my topic.

I use this theory and practice in everyday real life - that's how I make my coin. (and trying to get a new job) - so those who do not, please do not respond.

Is this formulae valid? If not, please tell me why - look for weak-point, use leverage & momentum. I know about the psychological compenent as well (suprise, remail calm / use the element if surprise, he's commited, you are not, etc.).

All I want to know from all of the expert BJJ experts on the forum is whether or not CPI (Crisis Prevention Institute) has employed and satisfied current combative theory or not.

Thank you,

Kevin

[meltdawn]

hi Kevin! i'm in HK and been studying a bit of bjj for a short while (ok, obsessively), and we both practice Lung Ying so it is interesting for me to be able to reply to this topic.

i know the find weak point-use leverage & momentum thing works in a controlled environment (sporting/authority against objector/strong against weak), but i don't know how effective it would be outside that environment. i had some bad situations as a kid with chinna being used against me, but i WAS just a kid, and it fueled my desire for learning martial arts, but in sport bjj, even fighting against people my level, i am very hard-put to make these things work like lightning. so, i have lots of doubt that stuff will work on the streets unless it is practiced over and over and over... and over again. and i don't mean 3 months type of stuff.

i'm also going to do a seminar on Krav Maga (stoked! since i think it's Lung Ying core) so maybe i'll gain more knowledge about real-life hand-to-hand combat and get a better understanding of street use of martial arts. since i'm small and female, i'm not facing the type of attacks you men are... i think about real-life threats to my body every day, and train accordingly. so my objectives in training are to learn to destroy, not subdue. i can't afford that liability given my personal stats.

[Becca]

Yeah, I was talking more from a security perspective. Otherwise let them have it with a 1-2 and a kick to the groin!

I don't doubt the seriousness but I feel closing the gap is a different story in a situation where you are limited but the other is not. Of course, realistically, a shot here and there isn't going to be the end of the world...but in today's world of cameras and video, you could end up being the aggressor and lose your job.

In the private world, you get jail time for excessive force wether you started it, they started it or even if there was a witness, electronic or otherwise. This is something I have though on quite a bit. Of course, as a civil servant, you can't just walk away, either, and folks have been known to try to make any mark you leave on them look worse for court, maybe even add a few marks you didn't leave, so I can see your point.

[golden arhat]

hit them
with whatever limb you have available
hit them hard
hit them again
keep hitting them
keep hitting them until they are sobbing on the floor begging you to stop
hit him one more time
is he moving ? no ?
stop hitting him.

[greendragon]

Mantis108 was a good post, learn to shift your weight or "roll back" because you want to lead him off balance, also thinking on the up/down plane, dropping your weight can also take balance, Here is where to disengage or engage before he can re-set.
On the opposite side, closing distance, this is where sticking hands can be useful. To maintain contact and redirect his force, nuetralizing it, by turning your body. Always keep both feet planted, knees bent, back straight, stay calm and relaxed. Breath.
If you are grabbed, try to ascertain their intent and act accordingly.
Just two cents worth of ideas.

[WinterPalm]

In the private world, you get jail time for excessive force wether you started it, they started it or even if there was a witness, electronic or otherwise. This is something I have though on quite a bit. Of course, as a civil servant, you can't just walk away, either, and folks have been known to try to make any mark you leave on them look worse for court, maybe even add a few marks you didn't leave, so I can see your point.

Absolutely! And as trained martial artists, if we do go beyond the required force, we not only do a disservice to ourselves in terms of potential jail time, but we also do a disservice to the art we practice...some may agree or not to that last point but we do train for discipline and correct action in regards to violence.

Having a guy/woman, attack you, you disarm or stop them, give them a shot or two in the process of restraining them, that to me is fine. It is when you stomp and hurt once the threat is nullified.
And of course there are always lepers...I mean lawyers that will take the case of any criminal.

[Yum Cha]

Something else comes to mind. If you are dealing with grabbing, and can't hit back, you probably want to take steps to insure you won't get struck. Being that the attacker isn't harnessed by the same rules you are.

Stepping back all to often takes you right into the 'sweet spot' for a king hit.

Also, when people grab, they are usually pulling you. If you go into them, say with a big double handed push or similar barge technique, you add their pull to your momentum and it's not 'excessive force' to push someone away....

As with all things martial, the fundamentals of keeping the opponent off balance, and lateral movement to the side gates to avoid the big hits and kicks.

I think grabbing hair is a good option, and jerking the head around, it is disorienting and unbalancing, if of course, there is hair to grab.