Essential skills in Choy Li Fut

[diego]

What are the key/qi forms to develop proper Choy Li Fut fight frame?...i don't want no communist nanquan renditions of CLF Wushu, I'm looking for the CLF fighters!.:cool:

Read some styles have four forms, others over one hundered...what are the key forms?...if you can give me a list to youtube with that would be very cool...if some of yall have links in your favorites page than that would be really ****ing cool man:)

I'm looking to research sets for foundation skills, sets to teach combo's, power building sets, and some key weapons set to take your CLF frame to the next level.
Peace

[extrajoseph]

Key Sets, IMO, from the King Mui lineage:

"Ng Lun Ma" (Five Wheels Stance) and "Ng Lun Chui" (Five Wheels Fists) for foundation skills.

"Sai Mun Kui" (Four Doors Bridge) and "Jow Sheng Ma" (Run the Live Horse) for footwork and speed.

"Sup Ba Lohan Sau" (18 Lohan Hands) for flexibilty,

"Fu Ying" (Tiger Form) for power.

"Chuin Loog Sup Ba Gark" (Penetrating Dragons in 18 Sets) for combos.

"Seung Garb Dan Gwan" (Double Layer Single Staff) for long weapons and

"Sui Sau Sin" (Breaking Hands Fan) for short weapons.

For competition fighting, keep doing repetitions from single to multiple combinations, starting with body rotations: Da Pok and Sair Pok, and the 3 basic ways (straight, diagonal and circular) to bridge the gap.

Find a more knowledgeable and better teacher, if you want to take your CLF frame to the next level, then train like hell! Without proper guidance, you will be wasting your time.

A branch with only four forms means just that: you will have four forms to chosse from. One with more, you will have more to choose from. But more is not neccessarily better, it only means you will have more choice and variety, that is all, they will all lead to the same end, if you have a good teacher and you train hard.

As for Youtube reference, the old fashion way is to "keep a sharp blade hidden inside a scabbard", so I can't help you there. There are low level and high level fighters, the higher level ones don't show off, so you have to look for them behind doors.

[diego]

Key Sets, IMO, from the King Mui lineage:

"Ng Lun Ma" (Five Wheels Stance) and "Ng Lun Chui" (Five Wheels Fists) for foundation skills.

"Sai Mun Kui" (Four Doors Bridge) and "Jow Sheng Ma" (Run the Live Horse) for footwork and speed.

"Sup Ba Lohan Sau" (18 Lohan Hands) for flexibilty,

"Fu Ying" (Tiger Form) for power.

"Chuin Loog Sup Ba Gark" (Penetrating Dragons in 18 Sets) for combos.

"Seung Garb Dan Gwan" (Double Layer Single Staff) for long weapons and

"Sui Sau Sin" (Breaking Hands Fan) for short weapons.

For competition fighting, keep doing repetitions from single to multiple combinations, starting with body rotations: Da Pok and Sair Pok, and the 3 basic ways (straight, diagonal and circular) to bridge the gap.

Find a more knowledgeable and better teacher, if you want to take your CLF frame to the next level, then train like hell! Without proper guidance, you will be wasting your time.

A branch with only four forms means just that: you will have four forms to chosse from. One with more, you will have more to choose from. But more is not neccessarily better, it only means you will have more choice and variety, that is all, they will all lead to the same end, if you have a good teacher and you train hard.

As for Youtube reference, the old fashion way is to "keep a sharp blade hidden inside a scabbard", so I can't help you there. There are low level and high level fighters, the higher level ones don't show off, so you have to look for them behind doors.

Thanks for the reply Joseph:)...the reason I made this thread is becuase I'm led to beleive that the kajukenbo hopgar I play may have links to SF CLF...I've been curious about CLF for a good ten years and now I was just thinking it would be good to get the essential skills from each branch of CLF that is on the net and see how similar my style is...I mean just looking at all the southern styles and their attitude of playing with fighting tricks is very helpful for me in understanmding the framework and intent of the hop gar I been studying. When I was young I would copy form from tv just mimicing bruce lee but found it was just having fun...now I would never train a leopard fist unless someone teaches it to me for real...besides i find lama fist works well so I'm def not into collecting any forms.
Cheers:)

[extrajoseph]

I don't know anything about the relationship between Kajukenbo Hop Gar and SF CLF, but traditional speaking, Hop Gar has a lot in common with CLF, in the sense that they both use the "long bridge" to close the gap and the "short horse" for in fighting. Both emphasised on working with the "soft" and the "hard", that is why Hop Gar is often called "Min Nui Jum" ("needle wrapped in cotton") - soft on the outside but hard inside, the same idea as in CLF.

I am no into forms either but I do collect a lot of them.

[hskwarrior]

Diego, forget forms...........take it from me, take it from the other fighters......

its what's in the forms, or even ten seeds is what you need.

Diego, do you really think the Revolutionary fighters of the 1800's had time to perfect forms when in about a decade to two decades over 20-30 million southern chinese were killed due to things like the Tai Ping Rebellion?

The reason why there are so little forms within Hung Sing as compared to Chan Family, is Hung Sing People care MORE about how you use it, then how its performed. I don't care what anyone has to say, I'm not that far off from Lau Bun (Jew Leong, Sifu, me)..........and what i was told about Lau Bun he didn't care about forms neither.

See, Professor Lau Bun survived the Tong Wars out here in the bay area during his time which were extremely bloody. his students were apart of this as well. And seeing how they did it back then as opposed to how it looks today, back then it was raw brute force with killing power.........today we all look like folk dancers....trying to do our sets as pretty as can be.

As EJ said, for that branch, those forms are important for them.

for Lineages such as Yuen Hai, Lui Chun, and Lee Yan......Jeong Yim's most senior disciples, there were only 3 main forms. Ping Kuen, Kau Da, and Cheung Kuen. These forms have very good fighting material in it.

In Hung Sing (USA) the forms one should keep are.....

(foundational forms)
Che Kuen
Cheung Kuen..........these two forms also cover speed and strength on a more practical level.

Two of our fighting forms are....

Sup Ji Kau Da
Um Ying.........both cover speed & strength....both contain very good fighting elements.

Anyways, the same fighting elements are found in the small number of forms from our lineage that are found in the LARGE number of chan family forms.

truthfully, from a fighters point of view, i'd rather have a few forms that cover the whole system, than have the numbers going into the triple digits.

[hskwarrior]

Well, Lau Bun DID have a big influence over many martial artists that are existing in America today.

IN SF, at the TIME, we were the ONLY CLF school since the 1920's. So, yes, it's possible we did have a strong effect on Diego's direct lineage.

Diego, Connect with us, get to know us off the forum. We will be there for you and what you're looking for......but one way to check is to ask Sifu David Chin. He can tell you some great things about Lau Bun and has some great stories....

but the one thing i really love, is whenever you hear about bruce lee not being allowed to teach the gwai lo, like in the movie DRAGON, with jason scott lee........that was US telling bruce he couldn't teach outsiders. The Choy Lee Fut people.

[hskwarrior]

Diego.....

Buk Sing is FAMOUS.......amongst fighters.....one of the most respected branches out there in ALL of CLF.

Don't let the number of forms fool you. Just look at their forms, 200 plus and all contain things found in other forms. why deal with that?

A wise fighter will consolidate his material.......not spread it out over 200 forms.


REMEMBER 200 FORMS ARE NOT!!!!!!! ESSENTIAL TO ANY FIGHTER!

JUST ASK ANYONE IF THEY'D RATHER LEARN 5 FORMS WHICH CONTAIN THE WHOLE SYSTEM, OR 200 FORMS THAT CONTAIN THE WHOLE SYSTEM. WHICH DO YOU THINK THEY'D CHOSE?

WHY DO YOU THINK TAM SAM IS SO RESPECTED?

DON'T LET EJ'S CHAN FAMILY NONSENSE FOOL YOU.

[diego]

Diego, forget forms...........take it from me, take it from the other fighters......

its what's in the forms, or even ten seeds is what you need.

Diego, do you really think the Revolutionary fighters of the 1800's had time to perfect forms when in about a decade to two decades over 20-30 million southern chinese were killed due to things like the Tai Ping Rebellion?

The reason why there are so little forms within Hung Sing as compared to Chan Family, is Hung Sing People care MORE about how you use it, then how its performed. I don't care what anyone has to say, I'm not that far off from Lau Bun (Jew Leong, Sifu, me)..........and what i was told about Lau Bun he didn't care about forms neither.

See, Professor Lau Bun survived the Tong Wars out here in the bay area during his time which were extremely bloody. his students were apart of this as well. And seeing how they did it back then as opposed to how it looks today, back then it was raw brute force with killing power.........today we all look like folk dancers....trying to do our sets as pretty as can be.

As EJ said, for that branch, those forms are important for them.

for Lineages such as Yuen Hai, Lui Chun, and Lee Yan......Jeong Yim's most senior disciples, there were only 3 main forms. Ping Kuen, Kau Da, and Cheung Kuen. These forms have very good fighting material in it.

In Hung Sing (USA) the forms one should keep are.....

(foundational forms)
Che Kuen
Cheung Kuen..........these two forms also cover speed and strength on a more practical level.

Two of our fighting forms are....

Sup Ji Kau Da
Um Ying.........both cover speed & strength....both contain very good fighting elements.

Anyways, the same fighting elements are found in the small number of forms from our lineage that are found in the LARGE number of chan family forms.

truthfully, from a fighters point of view, i'd rather have a few forms that cover the whole system, than have the numbers going into the triple digits.


I haven't seen it all in CLF but I understand what you are saying from what I have seen...if you mingled up all of the muay thai shadowboxing technique you would get like two sets...:) Kaido only had ten to twelve short forms like three of them equal the time consumed in David Ross's Gam Gong set which takes like four minutes to perform. I have seen some lama tibet white crane forms...i don't think i've seen any actualhop gar forms online,but from everything i've seen...all the differant long sets,it's all there in kaido's kajukenbo line drills which is about 40-60 of them....all the tactics in kaidos kaju drills are in his short forms as well, so it's like kaido has two systems with two systems in it:)...wheras some schools have basic sets like twenty of them, intermediate with twenty of them and so on...kaido is just fight fight...within two weeks you had the gloves on and were sparring kajukenbo style...no time for forms there...the first to the last form is all killing intent...no basics...the first form is easier than the fourth which has sweep kicks and continuos tornadoes, but the first form is straight kajukenbo streetfighting essentials, so even tho the footwork is easier than the fourth set, the **** is still hard...no basic to advanced in kaido's style...it's just fighting technique and more of it as you get tighter:)

what everyone trien to do in the new millenium with streamlining their systems to be simpler like muay thai....kaido did it in the 70's and emperado started doing it in the 50's...i'mlucky to have traditional form from the 70's mindframe, and i'm lucky to have proper kung fu kickboxing drills equaling a system of traditional technique but more inline with the line drillmentality of the current popular martial artists mentality...i look at all these other kung fu schools and it's just like the hell i thought yall was lineaged to a master...where the fighting....kaido's student became a dog brother with his kajukenbo...i see kung fu guys no where...i look at the CLF clans though and i see why they get their props:)

too bad communists ****ed it up on the mainland and only the american street dudes kept the martial aspect of the gung fu alive...:)

[hskwarrior]

Professor Lau Bun Had An Effect Of Both The Kajukenbo And Ed Parker Systems Here In The States.

I'd Say Thats Impressive Enough. One Man Affecting Two Well Known Martial Arts Systems.

And People Wonder Why I'm Proud To Be Hung Sing!!!!

AND DIEGO, THRU BOTH SYSTEMS, THAT MAKES YOU MY DISTANT COUSIN!

[diego]

Professor Lau Bun Had An Effect Of Both The Kajukenbo And Ed Parker Systems Here In The States.

I'd Say Thats Impressive Enough. One Man Affecting Two Well Known Martial Arts Systems.

And People Wonder Why I'm Proud To Be Hung Sing!!!!

AND DIEGO, THRU BOTH SYSTEMS, THAT MAKES YOU MY DISTANT COUSIN!

:cool: When I was a kid I remember everyone was taught how to box for the street, and little things like grab a lock or a lighter to make your fist tougher....put a rock in a sock, uno every kid knew these tactics if they were getting down like that...I'm guessing SF has a great story behind the sharing of southern kung fu knowledge and I'm sure every style that kept the lights on had the same general ideas of what works and what is sneaky on the street...uno stealsteps and whipping backfists to groin and face work sweet, maybe spin out for a upcut or a sow choi to side of head...or go kajukenbo, kick the nuts elbow to the head...backfist nuts and tap the chin....:) if these are the types of cousins there is... I'd hate to see the jerry springer episodes when squabbles become physical!!:)

[KFNOOB]

Can anyone tell me what branch Tat Mau Wong and Doc Fai Wong are from?

What would be main differences between these two CLF legends?

Is one more geared towards fighting, forms etc?

[hskwarrior]

Diego You're Right......

Lol, But To Tell You The Truth, Gung Fu Was Secondary. Primary Weapon Was A Gun.......but If You Had To Fight....oh Yeah.....anything Goes. And There's Lots Of Stories Out There.

Ah......i Was Gonna Tell You One Story Here, But Nah, Not The Place. Hit Me Up If You Wanna Hear It. Its Short But Deadly Sneaky Move That Saved Someone's Life.

So, Seriously, Our Sf Gangsters Would Rather Shoot You. Their Attitude Is Eff Fighting, I Ain't Losing With A Gun In My Hand.

[hskwarrior]

Originally Doc Fai Wong came from the Lau Bun branch, but once his sifu passed on, he went on to other things.

and actually, the Lau Bun lineage has always been geared towards REALISTIC COMBAT. not really into sport fighting. we train to proctect our families or ourselves.

[htowndragon]

frank i wanna hear the story. im bored

[KFNOOB]

Originally Doc Fai Wong came from the Lau Bun branch, but once his sifu passed on, he went on to other things.

and actually, the Lau Bun lineage has always been geared towards REALISTIC COMBAT. not really into sport fighting. we train to proctect our families or ourselves.


So are you saying Doc Fai Wong branch may be more combat whereas Tat Mau Wong may be more sport? Which uses more forms?

[CLFNole]

Both have forms, DFW would have more as he has learned from different lineages. TMW was a full-contact fighter and champion in his early days. If you are considering either as a school go look at classes.

[Drake]

GM DFW didn't study with Lau Bun for long. He has an article posted on his site where he mentioned his most influential teachers.

Sifu Frank's teacher is probably a better representative of what Lau Bun taught.

And like Sifu L. said, Master TMW was a pretty good full contact fighter. Great distance learning material, but I hear his actual school is where it's at.

[Drake]

The excerpt:

"Fighting Stars: Now over the course of your training you have learned many varieties of physical and spiritual training techniques from masters of the highest regard in the martial arts world. Which of your teachers had the greatest influence on you and what particular skill or character development did you achieve at that time in your training?

Doc-Fai Wong: Actually I would say that was my second teacher Hu Yuen Chou. He is the one that gave me my life in the martial arts. I learned a great deal from two other masters also, but Hu Yuen Chou is the one that actually made me understand what the internal is and what Qi is and what the power is in the martial arts. Without the internal martial arts, without the strength and Jing development all the forms and fighting techniques would be useless. Hu Yuen Chou didn’t actually teach me many of the Choy Li Fut forms. Don’t get me wrong. He taught me plenty of forms but, what he really taught me was the essence of the system. I am more thankful to him than anyone else for really explaining to me how the system works. He taught me how to develop Jing and how to incorporate that power into the fighting movements. He taught me body mechanics and how to transform that into an effective fighting system. He taught me the scientific understanding as well as the artistic side of the fighting movements. His whole life was devoted to martial arts. He had a very deep knowledge of the martial arts and he knew how to bring that into his training and his teaching."

[hskwarrior]

So are you saying Doc Fai Wong branch may be more combat whereas Tat Mau Wong may be more sport? Which uses more forms?

Nah, that's NOT what i'm saying. I said Lau Bun's branch was geared towards fighting, DFW wasn't there long enough as opposed to my sigung Jew Leong who learned stuff from a Younger, more full of life Lau Bun.

Doc Fai Wong has some great fighters. I personally judged some of their fights. especially when it came to the Bak Eagle Claw group. Doc Fai Wong has definately produced some good fighters in my opinion.

and yes TMW is a known Champion fighter as well.

[Drake]

Master TMW was a vicious mofo back in his youth.

[KFNOOB]

Yeah, I have his Distance Learning tapes from years ago but no one at Tat Wong is returning emails to tell me is the program is still in existance. I was told last year they were coming back with new stuff this month but no responses lately.

So Im looking into Doc Fai Wong but dont want to duplicate so Im giving Tat Wong a chance first.

[CLFNole]

Their material would be different regardless.

[Drake]

I'm not going to get into specifics, because it's not my lane, but it probably isn't too good to study from both Master TMW and GM DFW. Conflict of interests.

[Satori Science]

good CLF is good CLF, like my Hing Di deeperthantao put it to me in a recent email. "All killer, no filler..."

I agreed with Ex-J in his innitial post in terms of combination training. For tournament fighting(what ever level of contact) the most important element of CLF is to be able to "run your horse" thru at least three to four movemnts in sequence and remain on a good fighting position and maintian good structure, balance & root. Also having an experienced fighter for a Sifu is really the key, and having the personality to want to fight and really to hurt your opponent. And fighting lots obviously, but then fighters from every style know that.

CLFNole put it well a few months back ina post of his, that when teaching if you have a student with a bit of a mean streak it makes all the difference when they fight, watch the intensity of GM Lacey's students and grand students on the recent Buck Sing Gwoon 6, no room for courtesy when fighting raw intensity and domination.

Compared to other CLF I have seen/been exposed to the major difference I see ( my own opinion as a practioner) is that Bak Hsing players rely on their aggresion to over wealm their opponets, also in terms of my understanding we release our power a little differently, that is to say our flavor is different. In terms of street fighting, my Sihing and sparring partner and I have a saying, if he's still standing after four movements its becuase you made a mistake. This is something I'm sure Frank can agree to, no doubt:cool:

As far as forms, even though my sylabus is limited, maybe 7 or 8 CLF sets the majorty of movements repeat in all of them except one which is a stand alone palm set. Pick one or two that make sense and work for you, for me Di Sup Jee Kuen to train the stances, gung & breath coordination (as it is a very long and physically taxing traditonal set) & Lien Whan Jeen Kuen as it trains our pattened running combinations, cutting angles and continuos "lien whan jing" cyclical and returning energy as well as the root and the "six harmonies coordiantions" ie the coordination of the hands & feet, knees and elbows, shoulders and hips. It comes down to, do you know how to read the forms? If I have one set and don't understnd it, no matter how hard I train it, it'll never do me any good. If I have a thousand and I understand five applications of every movement in each form, then what is the problem with that? We have a limited sylabus because we believe that it is hard enough to train for the ring and work one form to perfection let alone several, our own philosophy, not uncommon in other styles or lineages. Read a quote from one of the boards antagonizers, which I totally agreed with. "You traditional guys talk to much and don't fight enough" I'm sure all the fighters on hear can agree to that, palying forms all day long can kinda be like talking to much, Mark Ho put it well in his recent youtube interview, "forms are just the lips flapping and the arms moving" (not an exact quote) There is a cool quote on that Vid that Sifu Gus posted a while back on TCMA in south east Asia "In the school there is a sign that says, talk less, train more"

Like I said, good CLF is good CLF and bad CLF is just f-ing bad, as I get older, have started teaching, competing more and meeting more practioners I am more into the brotherhood side of things and mutual exchange. Though we strongly emphaisise that we our unique in my lineage, GM Lun Jee always told my Sifu that there is only ONE CLF.

Pce. :D

[Vilmore]

Satori Science, to such a post, one can only agree.

[diego]

good CLF is good CLF, like my Hing Di deeperthantao put it to me in a recent email. "All killer, no filler..."

I agreed with Ex-J in his innitial post in terms of combination training. For tournament fighting(what ever level of contact) the most important element of CLF is to be able to "run your horse" thru at least three to four movemnts in sequence and remain on a good fighting position and maintian good structure, balance & root. Also having an experienced fighter for a Sifu is really the key, and having the personality to want to fight and really to hurt your opponent. And fighting lots obviously, but then fighters from every style know that.

CLFNole put it well a few months back ina post of his, that when teaching if you have a student with a bit of a mean streak it makes all the difference when they fight, watch the intensity of GM Lacey's students and grand students on the recent Buck Sing Gwoon 6, no room for courtesy when fighting raw intensity and domination.

Compared to other CLF I have seen/been exposed to the major difference I see ( my own opinion as a practioner) is that Bak Hsing players rely on their aggresion to over wealm their opponets, also in terms of my understanding we release our power a little differently, that is to say our flavor is different. In terms of street fighting, my Sihing and sparring partner and I have a saying, if he's still standing after four movements its becuase you made a mistake. This is something I'm sure Frank can agree to, no doubt:cool:

As far as forms, even though my sylabus is limited, maybe 7 or 8 CLF sets the majorty of movements repeat in all of them except one which is a stand alone palm set. Pick one or two that make sense and work for you, for me Di Sup Jee Kuen to train the stances, gung & breath coordination (as it is a very long and physically taxing traditonal set) & Lien Whan Jeen Kuen as it trains our pattened running combinations, cutting angles and continuos "lien whan jing" cyclical and returning energy as well as the root and the "six harmonies coordiantions" ie the coordination of the hands & feet, knees and elbows, shoulders and hips. It comes down to, do you know how to read the forms? If I have one set and don't understnd it, no matter how hard I train it, it'll never do me any good. If I have a thousand and I understand five applications of every movement in each form, then what is the problem with that? We have a limited sylabus because we believe that it is hard enough to train for the ring and work one form to perfection let alone several, our own philosophy, not uncommon in other styles or lineages. Read a quote from one of the boards antagonizers, which I totally agreed with. "You traditional guys talk to much and don't fight enough" I'm sure all the fighters on hear can agree to that, palying forms all day long can kinda be like talking to much, Mark Ho put it well in his recent youtube interview, "forms are just the lips flapping and the arms moving" (not an exact quote) There is a cool quote on that Vid that Sifu Gus posted a while back on TCMA in south east Asia "In the school there is a sign that says, talk less, train more"

Like I said, good CLF is good CLF and bad CLF is just f-ing bad, as I get older, have started teaching, competing more and meeting more practioners I am more into the brotherhood side of things and mutual exchange. Though we strongly emphaisise that we our unique in my lineage, GM Lun Jee always told my Sifu that there is only ONE CLF.

Pce. :D
Satori Insight is your new name:) Thanks for that post, there is many good ideas in what you wrote...Run your horse...does that imply drills shifting through the horse stance?. horse to cat to bow to twist to horse, etc?...never heard that term before.
Cheers,
James

[Satori Science]

Satori Insight is your new name:) Thanks for that post, there is many good ideas in what you wrote...Run your horse...does that imply drills shifting through the horse stance?. horse to cat to bow to twist to horse, etc?...never heard that term before.
Cheers,


Your welcome, glad it was well recieved. As far as running horse it is tough to explain via typing. It is our own way of using the footwork to evade and control the opponet. while it can involve and stance per say it is our "fighting horse" stance that is used in sequsesive combinatoins while litterally Running towards and around the opponent and still maintaing a tall, but stucturally sound stance and root.

check this vid it may help, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLNWHtHH3yY

cheers,

[diego]

Your welcome, glad it was well recieved. As far as running horse it is tough to explain via typing. It is our own way of using the footwork to evade and control the opponet. while it can involve and stance per say it is our "fighting horse" stance that is used in sequsesive combinatoins while litterally Running towards and around the opponent and still maintaing a tall, but stucturally sound stance and root.

check this vid it may help, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLNWHtHH3yY

cheers,

Makes sence. You have kick range, and then punching range, and then the clinch...a good example of running the horse is maintain punch range-structure while pummelling him through the clinch range...the whole basics in the hop gar I do is all about using the side bow stance to ram through him shuffling through while delivering long arms at the clinchimg range, and then as he is broken you clinch and drop down with him to put him to sleep.:)

[hskwarrior]

You know what shocked me most about the video, is that the running horse and what you can do with it IMO was always something to keep quiet and NOT let others know outside your school. But thats the old way.

But the running horse is great, at the Hung Sing Kwoon under my sifu we call them "FIGHTING HORSES" because they stop becoming just a stance.

[Satori Science]

You know what shocked me most about the video, is that the running horse and what you can do with it IMO was always something to keep quiet and NOT let others know outside your school. But thats the old way.

But the running horse is great, at the Hung Sing Kwoon under my Sifu we call them "FIGHTING HORSES" because they stop becoming just a stance.

Traditionally we have kept it quiet as well, but showing and explaining are two different things. Even for students of ours who have been around for years, this is still a very difficult tech. to use and apply. The traditional way worked in its context but times have changed, ie Youtube....

when we apply we call it running horse, the stance itself is the "fighting horse"

One,

[hskwarrior]

Same Same, you say potato i say potahto.....

But it's something i think is not too focused on with some schools.

But i love the look of pain on peoples faces when you execute things properly. The feel of joints bending in opposite directions is theraputic to me....Just kidding. :D

But it's one great way to take the attention away from your opponent to create more openings.

oh well, what we refer to as running horse is always in movement......but when applying it we call it fighting horses because it takes on a whole different purpose.

[Drake]

So if I enjoy hurting those who deserve it...does this mean I should stop doing CLF, Frank?

[hskwarrior]

NO! that means you need MORE CLF!!!!:D