Shaolin Chan/Heart to Heart, Mind to Mind,transmission, etc.

[nuxia]

What does "heart to heart communication", or chan "transmission" or "instant enlightenment" have to do with Shaolin Kung Fu practice?

I have met many students who have had success with martial chi kung (light breaking) and can control chi in thier bodies. Of course I've seen many, many more advanced breakings by masters. But what does this have to do with communicating with someone else? Has anyone experienced it/can explain it and what it is supposed to achieve?

[xcakid]

Hmmm....that's a new one on me. Waiting for answer as well.....

[Sal Canzonieri]

For use in self defense / Shaolin kungfu: it allows you to either defuse your enemy's anger or to "feel" their thoughts to anticipate their attacking movements.

[LFJ]

What does "heart to heart communication", or chan "transmission" or "instant enlightenment" have to do with Shaolin Kung Fu practice?

this is a tradition of teaching in chan buddhism which doesnt rely on speech. it has nothing to do with transmitting gongfu ability through brain waves like a file sharing program or anything.

its about the relationship between master and disciple. both with open hearts and true understanding of each other. the goal is to have "one mind" with our master.

in gongfu training if we're being lazy, the sudden whack of a staff is enough to shake our mind and let us know. we have to suffer hardships in training and in life. and we cant let up. we must endure until we leave samsara.

the whack of the staff is our master's mercy on us. although our ego may feel we've been somehow wronged. the master could encourage us through words. but his mercy is strong enough to really let us know. the staff will make us know. thats heart to heart, mind to mind transmission. not a single word is needed. when you feel it, you know.

[nuxia]

Interesting and very different perspectives, thank you. Does anyone know of a good source of information on this? It seems to be a key and central aspect of Shaolin Kung Fu but there isn't a lot of info out there. At least not that I can find! Do people think it's just legend, mystery, martial fantasy that doesn't really exist and can't really be taught?

[Golden Spider]

The idea comes from the Tibetan schools as they ranked the comparative quality of a Master. I don't know it's history in the Chinese MA or religious community.
1. Those who teach by words
2. Those who teach by gestures
3. Those who teach by thought

#3. Direct Transmission is the terminology I use, and then there is the comparative quality of a student. Whole other ball game. Just because it's out there, doesn't mean that it applies... Who do you know that can meditate for at least 2 or more hours a day? Who will make the time, or has a physique that will support that kind of training?

Alexandra David-Neel mentions it in one of her books, Initiations and Initiates in Tibet.

[LFJ]

Interesting and very different perspectives, thank you. Does anyone know of a good source of information on this? It seems to be a key and central aspect of Shaolin Kung Fu but there isn't a lot of info out there. At least not that I can find! Do people think it's just legend, mystery, martial fantasy that doesn't really exist and can't really be taught?

there is a lot of info out there. but not necessarily linked directly with shaolin gongfu. because the idea of direct transmission "heart to heart, mind to mind" is a concept in chan buddhism. so no, its not martial fantasy. its chan buddhist philosophy, which can be applied to anything.

bodhidharma, the first patriarch of chan buddhism describes chan as such: "a special transmission outside the scriptures, not dependant on words or letters. directly pointing to the heart, realize the true nature, and become a buddha".

so, its a transmission that does not rely on scriptures and does not rely on speech. chan buddhism places emphasis on direct experience and wisdom.

so if you're interested in learning about this "direct transmission" and how its linked to shaolin gongfu, you must start at the base, which is chan buddhism- the japanese variant is zen. and in particular the teachings of the founder, bodhidharma. (damo in chinese)

from there you may begin to understand the traditional method of instruction on gongfu in shaolin temple and the philosophy on which it is based.

use google. chan, zen, bodhidharma....

[Errant108]

What does "heart to heart communication", or chan "transmission" or "instant enlightenment" have to do with Shaolin Kung Fu practice?

Ch'an focuses on the Dharma which is passed directly from teacher to student through means other than sutra study, but rather by attaining the Buddhamind. Chan teachers can trace their lineage directly back to Bodhidharma, and aprocyphally, Shakyamuni himself.

Some schools of Buddhism stress studying the sutras. Others stress devotion to certain gods or Bodhisatva.

Chan disdains all of these.

"One cannot be called a Master if he has not seen self-nature. So, even if one has studied all sections of Sutra volumes, he would still, without fail, fall into the sea of life-and-death and karmic cycle in the three different cosmos, without freedom from great suffering." Bodhidharma, On Lineage


I have met many students who have had success with martial chi kung (light breaking) and can control chi in thier bodies. Of course I've seen many, many more advanced breakings by masters. But what does this have to do with communicating with someone else? Has anyone experienced it/can explain it and what it is supposed to achieve?

"I am not interested in practicing the precepts, excruciating training, ascetic practices, or magical ways of entering the fire or water, standing on the tip of swords, the eating of only one meal a day, or sitting for long periods of time without lying down." Bodhidharma, On Lineage

Absolutely nothing. Kigong is to ensure that your body remains healthy, to enable you to practice Chan. The above quote from Bodhidharma would advise you not to put too much emphasis on such things. They are just exercises. Use them to serve your Chan practice. Do not make false idols of them.

[Errant108]

The idea comes from the Tibetan schools as they ranked the comparative quality of a Master. I don't know it's history in the Chinese MA or religious community.

While the Tibetans may have a concept they call "mind to mind transmission", I don't think there's any way you can say that the Chan understanding of this term came from Tibetan Buddhism with any certainty.

[LFJ]

stress devotion to certain gods

buddhism in any form doesnt contain gods. perhaps choose a less loaded word?


Chan disdains all of these.

did chan tell you so itself?

keep in mind, while bodhidharma said what he said about sutras and such, he still used them to teach. namely the lankavatara sutra.

that may interest you to reexamine his true meaning in the statements about sutras, chanting, prostration, etc.. and where they find their place in chan practice.

[Errant108]

buddhism in any form doesnt contain gods. perhaps choose a less loaded word?

What other word would you suggest for a false idol?


keep in mind, while bodhidharma said what he said about sutras and such, he still used them to teach. namely the lankavatara sutra.

When one talks of Dharma of form of doing, they eagerly follow it, but when they are told of the Dharma of formless doing, they become like non-responsive blockheads.


that may interest you to reexamine his true meaning in the statements about sutras, chanting, prostration, etc.. and where they find their place in chan practice.

Chanting is to practice righteous thought...Attaching to the form of sound and looking for fortune is wrong.

Without cultivating the inside of your mind, just looking for fortune outside of your mind is not the right thing to do.

[LFJ]

What other word would you suggest for a false idol?

i'm not following you here. which schools of buddhism stress devotion to gods or false idols of any kind, in your opinion?

as to the rest of your post, referring back to your original post i responded to, with this understanding why would you say "chan disdains all of these"?

[Errant108]

i'm not following you here. which schools of buddhism stress devotion to gods or false idols of any kind, in your opinion?

as to the rest of your post, referring back to your original post i responded to, with this understanding why would you say "chan disdains all of these"?

Anyone who devotes themself to any person or practice outside of mind is worshipping a false idol.

[LFJ]

and which schools of buddhism stress devotion to people or practice outside of mind?

[Errant108]

and which schools of buddhism stress devotion to people or practice outside of mind?

Chan does.

[Seppukku]

i'm not following you here. which schools of buddhism stress devotion to gods or false idols of any kind, in your opinion?

as to the rest of your post, referring back to your original post i responded to, with this understanding why would you say "chan disdains all of these"?

I thought in Chan there was some kind of rule like, thou shalt have no other gods before false idols...

I might be butchering that, but it's somewhat along those lines.

[Errant108]

I thought in Chan there was some kind of rule like, thou shalt have no other gods before false idols...

I might be butchering that, but it's somewhat along those lines.

Yes. That is an ancient Chan teaching from the Moses sutra....:rolleyes:

[Seppukku]

Yes. That is an ancient Chan teaching from the Moses sutra....:rolleyes:

Oops, my mistake.:o

[Errant108]

Oops, my mistake.:o

I would expect nothing less from a troll.

[LFJ]

Chan does.

ok, so now you're saying chan disdains it own practice....?

[Errant108]

ok, so now you're saying chan disdains it own practice....?

I thought that's what you were saying?

[LFJ]

sigh... do you even know what you're saying?

[Errant108]

sigh... do you even know what you're saying?

Why would you think I wouldn't?

[LFJ]

nevermind... :rolleyes: nevermind..

[Errant108]

nevermind... :rolleyes: nevermind..

Go back to the beginning and read it again. This time, don't chase mudballs.

[LFJ]

i knew there was a reason i never got along with zen poetry masters. :)

[Errant108]

i knew there was a reason i never got along with zen poetry masters. :)

Thanks for the compliment, though I am hardly a poet.

I take it you are not a Chan practitioner?

[nuxia]

Ch'an focuses on the Dharma which is passed directly from teacher to student through means other than sutra study, but rather by attaining the Buddhamind. Chan teachers can trace their lineage directly back to Bodhidharma, and aprocyphally, Shakyamuni himself.

Absolutely nothing. Kigong is to ensure that your body remains healthy, to enable you to practice Chan. The above quote from Bodhidharma would advise you not to put too much emphasis on such things. They are just exercises. Use them to serve your Chan practice. Do not make false idols of them.

Thank you so much for the reply! BUT, doesn't transmission have to do with chi? And isn't chi kung about chi cultivation? Health for practice, yes, maybe breaking bricks is for show, yes, but abolutely nothing?

[NJM]

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