Qi Gung

[guy b.]

What types of qigung do you do (if any). Why do you do them?

[ZenMindT]

I practice absorbing chi from the earth and nature in the park near my home. I also attend a tai chi class once a week where we do chi gong and occasionaly meditation, don't know if there's a specific name to the chi gong though.

I do chi gong to aid my health and give foundation to my other, more physical, practices.

[T.D.O]

i do 8 ba duan jin

http://www.ru.ac.za/societies/qi/baduanjin/

mostly for stretching/warming up.... though you can use it for health/energy and power.... but i don't know much about that:o:(

[LoneTiger108]

I practise Siu Lim Tao which has it's own 'hei gung' cultivation imho, which is moved and developed through Chum Kiu and harnessed and released through Biu Jii.

Standing postures and therapeutic stretching also assists hei flow and is a core practise for me personally at home. Mostly I practise for self defence against infections and viruses! It also helps build strength and power, but this is a different intent and harder to accomplish on your own...

[wutangforever]

Ba Duan Jin and Yi Jin Jing... also working on Iron Shirt...

[anerlich]

Hatha Yoga and Pranayama.

[canglong]

The Buddhist scriptures tell us how He (Buddha (Siddharta Gautama))was trained in Hindu philosophy, Yoga and martial arts. Hindu society, like its Chinese counterpart, had always acknowledged the link between psycho-spiritual development and that of physical development – but more than this, it was also acknowledged that at the highest levels, the distinction between the 'psychological' and the 'physical' falls away, to reveal a clear, pristine Mind that embraces the universe, within which all things manifest – including our own physical bodies. This philosophical concept of 'oneness' is further emphasised by the fact that just 'silent sitting' in meditation was not enough to transcend the suffering of life on the physical plane. Simply ignoring the 'physical' world does not make it 'go away.' Practicing the in-depth and diverse movements of the many styles of martial art – with a concentrated and developed mind (acquired through seated meditation) creates the perfect balance of 'mind' and 'body.' For when the physical body is aligned, and that body is merged with the 'One Mind,' universal energy flows and there is nothing that can not be achieved. If the Mind is enlightened through seated meditation, that is its essence; when the Mind moves the body on the physical plane, that is its function. All things accord, and there is peace.
http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=626
Answering the why.

[RedJunkRebel]

What types of qigung do you do (if any). Why do you do them?

The forms are my qigong. I like to practice them really slow while concentrating on my powerlines, posture & principle connections. I also take separate movements directly from the forms repeating them. I think it's really helped with my development over the last few years.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Hatha Yoga and Pranayama.

What are your views on "power yoga" ?

[TaichiMantis]

For weight loss...

10 excercises of Wu meridian qigong in conjuction with Dragon's Way diet, both from a book by TCM doc Nan Lu.

[B-Rad]

Though I've only had one class, I like practicing the little tiny bit of Sil Lum Tao that I know very slowly with controlled breathing (like taiji). I also practice qigong from Taiji Quan and Xingyi Quan.

[Hendrik]

What is Qigong?

[Ernie]

What is Qigong?

A good Cuban cigar ,,,, a 21 year old glass of Macallan aged sherry oak scotch ,,,, and a beautiful woman

[Sihing73]

Hello,

When I do practice, which is not often as my skills will attest ;), I do a series of standing postures known as Jam Jong. Pretty cool and relaxing as well.

Of course I usually practice my favorite form of Chi Kung laying in a prone position in bed with my eyes closed. Sometimes I even make strange rythmic noises as a form of breath control.

[tjwingchun]

A good Cuban cigar ,,,, a 21 year old glass of Macallan aged sherry oak scotch ,,,, and a beautiful woman

As always instructional and to the point :D

[T.D.O]

started reading lam's way of energy....

does jam jong work....? not really wanting to get into the habbit of standing like a tree for 20 mins a day and get nothing out of it LOL

[Hendrik]

Sad...

Heard about tea but have never known what it is...
and
thinking every drink which look green is tea..

[Sihing73]

started reading lam's way of energy....

does jam jong work....? not really wanting to get into the habbit of standing like a tree for 20 mins a day and get nothing out of it LOL

Hello,

Sorry for the tardy reply.

Like anything else you get what you put into it. However, I would say that doing Jam Jong is worth it, first of all you should not be starting with 20 minutes but perhaps 2-3 and working your way up from there. Also, once you reach the stage of doing 20 minutes you would most likely being doing a series of postures not just one. The main benefit would be that of balancing your body and it will help you root as well. By knowing your body you will be better able to connect everything together.

As I said, I am not a heavy practicianer of anything, other than sleep and watching T.V. :D, but I can say this, despite many interuptions in my life I tend to not get stressed much. I also have a resting heart rate below 60, usually around 56 or so which is pretty cool. I also just had a motorcycle accident which I walked away from with only minor injuries. I can not say this is a result of Jam Jong or Wing Chun but can say that the ability to relax and flow with what happens certainly did me no harm.

If you are expecting mystical powers and results then I would say you would be dissappointed, however if you are looking to learn more about yourself and become more rooted and focused then, IMHO, Jam Jong certainly would not hurt.

[T.D.O]

thanks man... i only do 3-5 mins just now, but i'm guessing you won't get results untill 20...

wasn't expecting mystical powers, but it would of been cool:D

just didn't want to get to that point only to have sore legs out of it lol

[KPM]

There is a question I have had for years and have never seen or heard a satisfactory answer. This seems like as good a place as any to post it and see if anyone can contribute. So here it goes....

Where do meditative disciplines like Chi Gung meet meditative disciplines like Zen or other Buddhist methods? How are the two related? The first seems to be primarily about accumulating and flowing energy, while the second seems to be more about psychological insight. They often start the same....sitting quietly and focusing on the tan tien while counting breaths. But from there they can have very different practices. Buddhist practices often speak of "mindfulness" training, while Chi Gung practices seem to emphasize visualization and more movement.

Can the two be combined? Can you reap the health benefits of Chi Gung while developing the pyschological insights of Zen?

[LoneTiger108]

Can the two be combined? Can you reap the health benefits of Chi Gung while developing the pyschological insights of Zen?

I would have thought so. I don't really study Zen/Ch'an as it seems too restrictive for Martial Artists in London! :D If it's all in the state of mind, with recitations and movement attached I think there is a great strength to be gained.

Mind you, I had to look outside my normal understanding of using just the lower dantien. I've always been shown to develop all 3 core dantien (belly, chest & neck) sometimes with sounds to help concentrate the intent of the breath. Of course, this would develop into 6 areas within the body (front & back) and the seventh being above the head (outside the body). A similar concept, if not identical to the Asian ideas of the 'shakra'.

It's the 7th that is used for meditation and so forth I believe, so some would say that without a good foundation of strength in the body taking the mind outside of yourself could be dangerous. Hence, Qi gung and meditation of any sorts must be practised as a 'whole'.

Strange, but something to chew over I think...

[Hendrik]

There is a question I have had for years and have never seen or heard a satisfactory answer. This seems like as good a place as any to post it and see if anyone can contribute. So here it goes....

Where do meditative disciplines like Chi Gung meet meditative disciplines like Zen or other Buddhist methods? How are the two related? The first seems to be primarily about accumulating and flowing energy, while the second seems to be more about psychological insight. They often start the same....sitting quietly and focusing on the tan tien while counting breaths. But from there they can have very different practices. Buddhist practices often speak of "mindfulness" training, while Chi Gung practices seem to emphasize visualization and more movement.

Can the two be combined? Can you reap the health benefits of Chi Gung while developing the pyschological insights of Zen?


Thus, I have heard,

Get those who really practice and have result. or the Kung Fu cultivated, and learn from them.
Then, experience for yourself what is what. The answer of Your question is a very simple one, very very simple but one needs to practice and know the stuffs. Otherwise, all words and more confusion.


Peace

BTW, today's general Chi Gung Definition is almost 99% screw up and pointing at other stuffs.
and also I dont buy the Jam Jong this or that speculation. those are misleading or bit and piece which is confusing.

[Hendrik]

I would have thought so. I don't really study Zen/Ch'an as it seems too restrictive for Martial Artists in London! :D If it's all in the state of mind, with recitations and movement attached I think there is a great strength to be gained.

Mind you, I had to look outside my normal understanding of using just the lower dantien. I've always been shown to develop all 3 core dantien (belly, chest & neck) sometimes with sounds to help concentrate the intent of the breath. Of course, this would develop into 6 areas within the body (front & back) and the seventh being above the head (outside the body). A similar concept, if not identical to the Asian ideas of the 'shakra'.

It's the 7th that is used for meditation and so forth I believe, so some would say that without a good foundation of strength in the body taking the mind outside of yourself could be dangerous. Hence, Qi gung and meditation of any sorts must be practised as a 'whole'.

Strange, but something to chew over I think...


Thus, I have heard, if one could quiet down one's mind and aware then one knows some, if not then one still have some work to go before entering the door.

[Hendrik]

thanks man... i only do 3-5 mins just now, but i'm guessing you won't get results untill 20...

wasn't expecting mystical powers, but it would of been cool:D

just didn't want to get to that point only to have sore legs out of it lol


Thus, I have heard, for those who know, it takes only second to enter into the state. and that is no mystical and doenst need to burn time to get there.

[Sihing73]

BTW, today's general Chi Gung Definition is almost 99% screw up and pointing at other stuffs.
and also I dont buy the Jam Jong this or that speculation. those are misleading or bit and piece which is confusing.

Hello Hendrik,

Care to expand on this? What is it about Jam Jong you do not agree with? What do you think the practice will develope, if anything? Do you feel standing postures are ineffective? Master Lam does have other series of postures as things advance, there are even walking methods in his teachings. But, one must start somewhere and Standing Like a Tree is the preferred method in his approach.

[Hendrik]

Hello Hendrik,

Master Lam does have other series of postures as things advance, there are even walking methods in his teachings.


May I ask who is Master Lam?


Peace

BTW what is Jam Jong? what is that for? similar to what is Qigong? what is that for? that needs to be clearly define. IMHO

[Vajramusti]

Not easy subjects , easy to be trivialized, misreprepresented and or exploited.
And an internet thread cannot do justice to the underlying disciplines.
Finding good instruction is an important key to seeing and understanding the empiricism involved here.
Wing chun among other things is a fighting art. Some versions of the slt including mine have an element of chi gung and storing in it- enough for self defense... possibly not enough for
health maintenance and other explorations ( psychological/philosophical in a classic non Freudian sense).
Pranayama and chi gung are related subjects- the linguistic root is sanskrit in one case and chinese in the other.
For me in practice and via good instruction in related subjects- there can be and is a seamless connection between first pranayama discipline and then the zazen of zen. Zen and Chan as labels are rooted in the early Mahayana where zen/chan is really dhyan in sanskrit and zhan in in Pali. There is a discipline which results in the Boddhidharma, Hui neng and Dogen from separate countries have the same insights.
There can be parallel paths to the insight., such as differences in pranayama instruction and practice.

Mine us as follows- 1, I do pranayama (chi gung) for my health, strength and recoveries.
2. I do zazen (not counting breaths which is more vipassana of the southern school) for clearing my perceptions.
3.I do sil lim tao very deliberately for developing my art and for self defense supplemented bya full wing chun curriculum.
The relationship between 1,2 and 3 is for me is seamless- I am the same person.I have had very good mentoring from appropriate mentors in each of the 3 disciplines.Videos and books were not my primary sources of understanding.

The result for me is that I have been able to minimize and even avoid the medications and doctors office visits of people my age(74) and spar often enough to insure that the timing
and delivery is there.

joy chaudhuri
(not spell checked)

[Sihing73]

May I ask who is Master Lam?


Peace

BTW what is Jam Jong? what is that for? similar to what is Qigong? what is that for? that needs to be clearly define. IMHO

Hi Hendrick,

Correct me if I am wrong, but in your prior post you seem to indicate Jam Jong is not viable, now it seems that you are saying you don't know what it is :confused:

FWIW Jam Jong is a series of standing postures usually performed in a sequence. The main focus is on being still and focusing on breathing and rooting to the earth. There are some moving or walking postures in the more advanced stages.

Master Lam is Lam Kam Chuen and you can find out more about him here: http://www.lamassociation.org/

[Hendrik]

Correct me if I am wrong, but in your prior post you seem to indicate Jam Jong is not viable, now it seems that you are saying you don't know what it is :confused:-----


what i ask is what is Jam Jong for you.

for your Jam Jong, Mine Jam Jong and others Jam Jong what is Jam Jong for every different person?

Similar with if one intended to go to san francisco, one needs to know what is San francisco. similar to one intended to go to LA with a Car and one needs to know what type of Car and what is its capability.


And so, what is Jam Jong for you?







FWIW Jam Jong is a series of standing postures usually performed in a sequence. The main focus is on being still and focusing on breathing and rooting to the earth. There are some moving or walking postures in the more advanced stages. ------



Good, Thanks for Sharing.

IMHO


is that definition of your on Jam Jong similar as define in the ancient China? what is the purpose of Jam Jong?
and what is the level of Kung fu experience lead to describe Jam Jong as you describe?

Those are qoestions one needs to ask.


and what is being in Still? and how to be in still? how is the mind and or body function at being still ? how is in biofeedback term describing stillness with the measurable EEG , brain wave, and HRV Heart Rate Variation?




Master Lam is Lam Kam Chuen and you can find out more about him here: http://www.lamassociation.org/ -------

Thank you and appreciate. I have read one of his book.

[guy b.]

Hendrick, its not really helpful to come on the thread, implicitly criticise everyone else's answer, then give vage half answers yourself. This is typical master student oriental BS, to be blunt.

I just wanted to know what types of qigung other wing chun people did, why they did it, what they get from it etc. You are basically guilty of the same thing you accuse everyone else of. It comes across as trite and unhelpful. I take it you believe that (some kind of) qigung has an effect on heart rate, brain waves, etc and that this can be measured. You are saying that it is a trance state. Ok good, so what does that mean in practical terms and how is it relevant?

[T.D.O]

There is a question I have had for years and have never seen or heard a satisfactory answer. This seems like as good a place as any to post it and see if anyone can contribute. So here it goes....

Where do meditative disciplines like Chi Gung meet meditative disciplines like Zen or other Buddhist methods? How are the two related? The first seems to be primarily about accumulating and flowing energy, while the second seems to be more about psychological insight. They often start the same....sitting quietly and focusing on the tan tien while counting breaths. But from there they can have very different practices. Buddhist practices often speak of "mindfulness" training, while Chi Gung practices seem to emphasize visualization and more movement.

Can the two be combined? Can you reap the health benefits of Chi Gung while developing the pyschological insights of Zen?

i may be wrong but i think it has to do with the spiritual and physical plane being as one (kinda yin-yang thing), training both physical and mental to get......? :confused:

[LoneTiger108]

Hendrick, its not really helpful to come on the thread, implicitly criticise everyone else's answer, then give vage half answers yourself. This is typical master student oriental BS, to be blunt.

Easy up a little guy b! I know Hendrix' posts are quite hard to follow sometimes, and he can be very harsh but I think its because he may not be as good at writing English as he is at talking.

I'd also guess that English is not Hendrix' mother tongue, it may be Mandarin.

We're all learning how to communicate with eachother better. It may just take a little longer for us all to get used to 'how we write'...

[guy b.]

Ok I didn't realise. If that's the case then I appologise to Hendrick and anyone else who may have taken offence.

[Hendrik]

i may be wrong but i think it has to do with the spiritual and physical plane being as one (kinda yin-yang thing), training both physical and mental to get......? :confused:

Thus, I have heard,

Nope. not as one think. Think is often not lead one there.

[Hendrik]

Easy up a little guy b! I know Hendrix' posts are quite hard to follow sometimes, and he can be very harsh but I think its because he may not be as good at writing English as he is at talking.

I'd also guess that English is not Hendrix' mother tongue, it may be Mandarin.

We're all learning how to communicate with eachother better. It may just take a little longer for us all to get used to 'how we write'...



Thank you for your support.


in this case, I might be purposely not being helpfull. May be I just intend to shatterd all the general and over general teaching about Qigung.

Why because most of the general teaching is just full of $hit and wasting life. IMHO.

and until one dump all those bit and pieces then only then one could reborn similar to the pheonix out of its own fire.


It is an alchemist isnt it? so, one needs to break one's limit to become limitless.

and the first step to break one's limit is to break one's believe which one takes without knowing what is happening.


May be I am just dance the dance of Siva, destroy and then contruct.

who knows, I let God lead us.

peace

[Hendrik]

Ok I didn't realise. If that's the case then I appologise to Hendrick and anyone else who may have taken offence.

No appologies needed. No problem. Let Go and Let God.

Thanks

[Hendrik]

Hendrick, its not really helpful to come on the thread, implicitly criticise everyone else's answer, then give vage half answers yourself. This is typical master student oriental BS, to be blunt.

I just wanted to know what types of qigung other wing chun people did, why they did it, what they get from it etc. You are basically guilty of the same thing you accuse everyone else of. It comes across as trite and unhelpful. I take it you believe that (some kind of) qigung has an effect on heart rate, brain waves, etc and that this can be measured. You are saying that it is a trance state. Ok good, so what does that mean in practical terms and how is it relevant?


could you evoke your Zhen Qi at will?

If yes, show us here your process and describe your experience.
If not, then what the heck to discuss on something one has no clue and you guess is as good as my guess?

Get it?

sure I am harsh here.

But think about it. do you want to waste your life patting each others back here and then for a whole life thinking and arguing something you dont have clue or even boasting about it. and it reality, cant even have a slight advantage to aids you when you need the Qi?


Now, ChiKung cultivation is a very powerfull one. practically, Chi in the modern language means energy. Chi Kung means the cultivation of energy. and what kind of energy do we cultivate? how? is the breathing and focus on dan dien cultivating energy? if yes why? if no why? need to get these stuffs clear similar to drive a car, one needs to know which knob can be push and which gear can be shift. otherwise, it is fantasy. and that wasted life.

Just my Humble opinion, and not one needs to be agree with me.

Peace

[T.D.O]

hendrik, i like your views and would like to sign up to your newsletter :D

is the energy not from air, food and nature (the sun and the likes) ?

[KPM]

Guy B wrote:
Hendrick, its not really helpful to come on the thread, implicitly criticise everyone else's answer, then give vage half answers yourself. This is typical master student oriental BS, to be blunt.

---Ah! But that's what Hendrik does! He enjoys it!

LoneTiger wrote:
Easy up a little guy b! I know Hendrix' posts are quite hard to follow sometimes, and he can be very harsh but I think its because he may not be as good at writing English as he is at talking.

---Don't let Hendrik fool you! He can write in perfectly good English when he wants too!

Hendrik wrote:
in this case, I might be purposely not being helpfull.

---That would be pretty typical! :D

May be I just intend to shatterd all the general and over general teaching about Qigung. Why because most of the general teaching is just full of $hit and wasting life. IMHO.

---But let me guess....you aren't going to tell us why you think this and what the alternative is! You want to make us figure that out on our own. :rolleyes:

[KPM]

Hi Joy!

---Thanks for the reply!

There is a discipline which results in the Boddhidharma, Hui neng and Dogen from separate countries have the same insights.

---Yes. But I don't think any of these guys practiced what is usually referred to as "Chi Gung."


Mine us as follows- 1, I do pranayama (chi gung) for my health, strength and recoveries.
2. I do zazen (not counting breaths which is more vipassana of the southern school) for clearing my perceptions.
3.I do sil lim tao very deliberately for developing my art and for self defense supplemented bya full wing chun curriculum.

---That sounds good. From what little I know of Pranayama, it seems similar to what the Buddhist meditation teachers instruct as a kind of "preparatory" work. In Zen they often teach various breathing or self-guided imaging as a way to gradually calm the mind to the point that you are sitting quietly. But what I had in mind with Chi Gung is more along the lines of what Mantak Chia teaches and other similar systems that I have been exposed to. They have a very elaborate progression of mental exercises that involve developing and moving the Chi until you reach the stage where you have developed an "immortal" spirit body, etc, etc. But even short of that... most Chi Gung focuses on developing a free-flow of Chi or Prana that would seem to have little to do with the insight that is the purpose of the Buddhist disciplines. You often hear Chi Gung practitioners talk about health improvement, but you seldom hear them talk about insight or "enlightenment." There has to be a happy medium. :) But maybe you are the right track with the way you practice!?

---In other words, I have started to think that....similar to what Hendrik SEEMS to be saying....the elaborate Chi Gung practices may be a waste of time. Simpler things can benefit your health, and actual meditation time is likely better spent on Zazen.


The result for me is that I have been able to minimize and even avoid the medications and doctors office visits of people my age(74) and spar often enough to insure that the timing
and delivery is there.

---That's great! I hope I'm still going strong and teaching WCK like you when I hit 74! :)

[Hendrik]

---But let me guess....you aren't going to tell us why you think this and what the alternative is! You want to make us figure that out on our own. :rolleyes:


Since I can only speak toward a type of audience at a time.



1, for those who knows. I humbly ask you to share their experience here.

2, for those who dont know. I would say keep reading.

3, For those who think they know but they really dont. I am cracking thier cup. So that they start with a totally new cup. Otherwise, it is a dissaster to even ask questions. What is the point to ask non sense and argue about non sense? wasting of life. So, it is better off crack the cup, destroy it, and then start all over. That way, may be one still could save the old cup of tea because once one know the proper way then all way is the way.

However, before that, The best thing is get a sifu and bai si with one who knows to learn.

Dont believe me? take a tally, how many years different people in this forum has do Jam Jong....hug tree..... and how many could do the minimum basic as evoke the Zhen Qi? let the facture data shows the truth.




peace



PS. if your mind can figure out about those Zen and Qigung common denominator....etc you will not post the question. and since your mind cannot figure out. then go baisi with some experience teacher and learn it. Dont speculate or trying to figure out. It is a realm beyond your mind, for your mind have never know or experience what it is yet.

[Vajramusti]

Hi Joy!

---Thanks for the reply!
(you are welcome)

There is a discipline which results in the Boddhidharma, Hui neng and Dogen from separate countries have the same insights.

---Yes. But I don't think any of these guys practiced what is usually referred to as "Chi Gung."

((I dont particularly care about what is "usually" called chi gung probably a term not in wide usage in those times.Just a name- the process will vary with the user and their teaching. Chi Gung, kung fu are more modern terms.From everything I have read and that is alot- the Chan/Dhyan way involves mindful exercising, proper deep breathing and storing before meditation. You tame the body, then you tame the breath and then the mind.)


Mine us as follows- 1, I do pranayama (chi gung) for my health, strength and recoveries.
2. I do zazen (not counting breaths which is more vipassana of the southern school) for clearing my perceptions.
3.I do sil lim tao very deliberately for developing my art and for self defense supplemented bya full wing chun curriculum.

---That sounds good. From what little I know of Pranayama, it seems similar to what the Buddhist meditation teachers instruct as a kind of "preparatory" work.
((Pranayama-the discipline of the breath comes from Vedic times- went into Ptanjali's yoga and then informed different Hindu and Buddhist traditions. The Boddhists broke off from Hinduism as a religion))

In Zen they often teach various breathing or self-guided imaging as a way to gradually calm the mind to the point that you are sitting quietly. But what I had in mind with Chi Gung is more along the lines of what Mantak Chia teaches and other similar systems that I have been exposed to. They have a very elaborate progression of mental exercises that involve developing and moving the Chi until you reach the stage where you have developed an "immortal" spirit body, etc, etc. But even short of that... most Chi Gung focuses on developing a free-flow of Chi or Prana that would seem to have little to do with the insight that is the purpose of the Buddhist disciplines. You often hear Chi Gung practitioners talk about health improvement, but you seldom hear them talk about insight or "enlightenment." There has to be a happy medium. But maybe you are the right track with the way you practice!?

((I am not particularly fond of Mantak Chia. Further IMO Chi'a perspective is not really Chan.I Think Chia is a waste of time. My instruction in pranayama was direct from two different very good yogis. The seniormost lived to be 96 and died last year,. The second is also a Ph.D in bio chemistry.
After pranayama comes meditation. I have had several good Hindu, Hinayana and Mahayana dhyan teachers. All three helped but the Zen way was and is the most insightful))

---In other words, I have started to think that....similar to what Hendrik SEEMS to be saying....the elaborate Chi Gung practices may be a waste of time. Simpler things can benefit your health, and actual meditation time is likely better spent on Zazen.

((Depends on who is saying what. There is considerable confusion on chi gung and even some fraud))


The result for me is that I have been able to minimize and even avoid the medications and doctors office visits of people my age(74) and spar often enough to insure that the timing
and delivery is there.

---That's great! I hope I'm still going strong and teaching WCK like you when I hit 74!
((We never know the future for sure,I have had the good fortune of having and having had some good students in Temep. Joy Chaudhuri))

__________________
Keith P. Myers

[Hendrik]

---Don't let Hendrik fool you! He can write in perfectly good English when he wants too!

:


1, I dont fool you. I am trying to get your attention to know yourself.

2, until your mind set which you have build up broken. it is very very very difficult to have a new paradigm shift. and without that paradigm shift. one join the army of keep talking and entertaining on the Jam Jong....etc. but go no where.


Here is a real deal. and how far are we to that? can our kung fu being put in the test like this?

http://u-energy.org/ScienceTest/DistanceHealing2007.html

http://u-energy.org/ScienceTest/DistanceHealing2006.html


if we couldnt even come close, then we need to learn from the basic.
What Qigong? we dont have a clue. Thus, started from the very basic.





Peace


PS. I am not here to teach you because I myself is a student. I am here to pass a message. Dont waste your life on something fantasy.

[Hendrik]

---In other words, I have started to think that....similar to what Hendrik SEEMS to be saying....the elaborate Chi Gung practices may be a waste of time. Simpler things can benefit your health, and actual meditation time is likely better spent on Zazen.



Nope. that is not what I am saying.

Am saying, if one cant even identify the core basic element which is in both Qigong and Zen cultivation. Then one is wasting one's life studying or training what one is training, because this evident shows one dont know what is what.

Thus, that is a wasting of life.

One suppose to know the answer and this is not a question at all. there is no different in the foundamental core basic of Zen or Qigong or prayer. and until that component identify. what is one training? what are you doing? when you do Zen, Qigong? or Prayer? are you really training or are you just fantasying. if you are training, you must know. if you are fantasying there sure have no result. if you are not sure, then your result will be flaky and unstatble.

Hook a EEG or HRV on you and see for yourself.

But saying thing this explicit will get most people pis$ off and ready to argue to win for thier ego shake.

Thus, I dont say it in my first post.

Now I say it. and sorry if I am harsh. It is just my opinion. so, dont take it if you dont like.



I know this sound harsh but face it once and free for the rest of your life.
peace

[KPM]

I previously wrote:
In other words, I have started to think that....similar to what Hendrik SEEMS to be saying....the elaborate Chi Gung practices may be a waste of time. Simpler things can benefit your health, and actual meditation time is likely better spent on Zazen.

Hendrik responded:
Nope. that is not what I am saying.

But then he said:
Hook a EEG or HRV on you and see for yourself.

To which I say:
An EEG shows brain activity. Brain activity is known to be influenced by Buddhist/Zen type of meditation. This type of "centering" meditation produces certain brain states that can be observed with an EEG. However, the EEG has nothing to do with Chi flow or the lack thereof and would not be a reflection of Chi Gung practice. So, once again, you SEEM to be saying what I did. But your organization and expression of your thoughts is rather haphazard, and as usual, rather difficult to follow! :eek:

You further stated:
Am saying, if one cant even identify the core basic element which is in both Qigong and Zen cultivation. Then one is wasting one's life studying or training what one is training, because this evident shows one dont know what is what.

To which I reply:
That was the purpose of my post in the first place. To see if anyone else had anything to share regarding the relationship between Chi Gung practices and "insight" meditation. Do you have something real to share, or just more admonitions about wasting one's life?

You wrote:
there is no different in the foundamental core basic of Zen or Qigong or prayer.

I reply:
Ok. Tell us what you see as the fundamental core basic shared by Zen, Chi Gung, and prayer. That would be an actual contribution to this discussion! :)Thanks!

[Hendrik]

To which I say:
An EEG shows brain activity. Brain activity is known to be influenced by Buddhist/Zen type of meditation. This type of "centering" meditation produces certain brain states that can be observed with an EEG. However, the EEG has nothing to do with Chi flow or the lack thereof and would not be a reflection of Chi Gung practice.


So, once again, you SEEM to be saying what I did. But your organization and expression of your thoughts is rather haphazard, and as usual, rather difficult to follow! :eek: -------------

[/QUOTE]



Based on the statement above,


Nope what you say is heaven and earth different compare with mine.

Sure, I am sure lots of people will share with you when you shown you have a new clean cup.

Until then, there is no point to keep pouring green tea into a mix coco drink. IMHO

Best Wishes

Peace

[Vajramusti]

An EEG shows brain activity. Brain activity is known to be influenced by Buddhist/Zen type of meditation. This type of "centering" meditation produces certain brain states that can be observed with an EEG. However, the EEG has nothing to do with Chi flow or the lack thereof and would not be a reflection of Chi Gung practice. (KPM)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------



Based on the statement above,


Nope what you say is heaven and earth different compare with mine.((Hendrik))
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
FWIW-tring to help.

Two different paradigms(cups) involved. With proper undestanding of both perhaps they can be bridged.

1. If there was no chi flow-one would be dead.

2. Per the same model-changes in brain function (waves in one paradigm) would be related to variations in chi flow.

joy chaudhuri

[Hendrik]

An EEG shows brain activity. Brain activity is known to be influenced by Buddhist/Zen type of meditation. This type of "centering" meditation produces certain brain states that can be observed with an EEG. However, the EEG has nothing to do with Chi flow or the lack thereof and would not be a reflection of Chi Gung practice. (KPM)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------



Based on the statement above,


Nope what you say is heaven and earth different compare with mine.((Hendrik))
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
FWIW-tring to help.

Two different paradigms(cups) involved. With proper undestanding of both perhaps they can be bridged.

1. If there was no chi flow-one would be dead.

2. Per the same model-changes in brain function (waves in one paradigm) would be related to variations in chi flow.

joy chaudhuri



Joy,

Thus, I have heard,
With experience instead of thought or speculation.
There are no two paradigms and not one either. IMHO. Thus, no bridge is needed.

[guy b.]

It looks like I was correct in my initial assessment. Hendrick, you are helping nobody at all with this mystical waffle. Its just noise- you aren't saying anything.

People reading the thread see that you disagree with KPM (even though he hasn't really said anything much), but then instead of actually stating what YOU think, and WHY you disagree with him, we just get a load more master student empty-your-cup crap. Its boring. Instead of a realistic attempt at an answer you advise people to seek bai-si with a master. All I see is a person wanting everyone else to say what they think qi gung is, so that they can criticise it and appear knowledgeable, without being prepared to reciprocate. It is martial arts BS 101.

[LoneTiger108]

It looks like I was correct in my initial assessment. Hendrick, you are helping nobody at all with this mystical waffle. Its just noise- you aren't saying anything...

...without being prepared to reciprocate. It is martial arts BS 101.

Fair point this time guy b! I can honestly see what you're saying, as I too have followed posts by Hendrik and found that he doesn't 'share' much of his experiences.

In his defennse though, he claims that he is still studying himself, therefore he doesn't wish to 'teach' anyone. So I ask:

Lets all just share our experiences here!!

Does anyone use sounds to direct your 'qi'? I've heard of Snake & Crane variations which I have experimented with. I've also passed out, gone green and felt physically sick from my stupid experiments! Alchemy is a very dangerous 'hobby' imho.

Actually, can someone (anyone!) tell me how the first set of SLT affects your internal organs?

[guy b.]

Lets all just share our expreiences here!!

Good idea, but I can see how people might be put off since master Hendrick criticises every time someone writes something. If only he'd elaborate on HIS qi gung and what HE understands by it (most of us don't have ecg machines by the way).

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


There is a lot of stuff that comes along with qigong. The reason Zen, Prayer, Chi kung have similarities is because they all have a root training of Collect The Yi!!!!!

This concept is where the EEG can be useful. No need to speculate if you enter the state or not when you have the EEG. The Mind Frequency is an important subject of qigong. Of course there is more! Conditioning being very important.

Jam Jong is very powerful and much simpler than moving qigong. For in Stillness you activate every cell in the human organism and exercise the vascular system. Little by little the mind, body, breath start to unify but thru a natural process and not forced.

Back to the Mind Frequency stuff. If you dont meditate your mind is over-active. dont believe me? Try this:

Stand or sit or lay down and track your breathing for 5 minutes. Just five minutes. Track the slow in breath and slower out breath. Cool air going in and out of the nose while the Dan Tien softly expand/contract. How long does it take before you lose concentration on Yourself and stuff (thoughts) start pop in and out of your head Hmmmmm?

The more your function on Real Time or Now Time the more of a clean concetrated thought can be produced. You can actually focus on the job at hand. Place you clean frequency in your Dan Tien for a couple of years and Sink The Qi. Qigong will chemically change your insides. Stage one is Sink The Qi.


Sara Lazar at Harvard has done much research into the process. They scan the brain of those who practice insight meditation regularly, not so regularly and not at all. The ammount of time put in had a direct effect on the development of the Brain. Those who practice regularly they found the Wall of the Brain was getting Thicker than those who practice a little and those who did not at all.

There is much research to support the benefits of qigong, meditation etc.. No more mystical specualtion as its all quite simple. Western Medicine was in the Dark about this process for a long time but thanks to modern equipment this is no longer the case.

Sifu John Chang gives a great demo in this youtube clip of his qi cultivation. If you listen he will credit Meditation for his powers:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAAB0dbc3Es&feature=PlayList&p=AFB6DF96B479907A&index=2


BTW: Hendrik's criticism of qigong practitioners is valid. The truth is searching for this technology and finding a true practitioner is few and far between. John Chang even mentions in the youtube clip that their sect is not allowed to teach outsiders. Sad to say but this is pretty common with Zheng Qi players. Zheng Qi is "true or proper" energy. Its not the Hard method its the energy of nature that is evoked and cultivated thru the natural methods only. The result has a certain feel and its not HEAT or Fire.

Gotta run!


:)

[LoneTiger108]

...John Chang even mentions in the youtube clip that their sect is not allowed to teach outsiders. Sad to say but this is pretty common with Zheng Qi players. Zheng Qi is "true or proper" energy. Its not the Hard method its the energy of nature that is evoked and cultivated thru the natural methods only. The result has a certain feel and its not HEAT or Fire.

As always Jim, I'm intrigued by the clip and will watch it later. I've asked before, but what do you mean by the character Zheng? Does that translate as true or proper?

I don't want to be a sceptic here, but if these practitioners only teach 'insiders', or for arguments sake, Chinese students, what makes you think it will help your Martial Art. Most Martial Arts will have a hard and soft approach to training, whether in relation to Qi or not. Still, can you assist me in the answer to my question:

Can someone (anyone!) tell me how the first set of SLT affects your internal organs?

[LoneTiger108]

Sifu John Chang gives a great demo in this youtube clip of his qi cultivation. If you listen he will credit Meditation for his powers:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAAB0dbc3Es&feature=PlayList&p=AFB6DF96B479907A&index=2

Don't need to watch it, as I've seen this clip many, many times as it's quite old! Personally, like you say, this is not Martial Arts it's a natural development. So natural, in fact, that maybe even John Chang doesn't 'know' how he got to this level :eek: let alone actually teach anyone else!! :rolleyes:

The 'electricity' bolt or spark I can only suggest is an old 'common illusion'.

[Jim Roselando]

Spencer,

As always Jim, I'm intrigued by the clip and will watch it later. I've asked before, but what do you mean by the character Zheng? Does that translate as true or proper?

Hendrik can help you with this! JR

I don't want to be a sceptic here, but if these practitioners only teach 'insiders', or for arguments sake, Chinese students, what makes you think it will help your Martial Art.

The fact is the people who have been taught this stuff typically only pass it on to close friends rather than commercially sell it. I am not Chinese but have been taught the process. Its damm simple and the effects on your Martial Art will be noticeable within 3 months of daily trianing. If you dont feel the results then you are probally not training properly. JR

Most Martial Arts will have a hard and soft approach to training, whether in relation to Qi or not.

The Soft or Natural method is not what you think. The Hard/Soft will not bring out the zheng qi. The truth is most of what people practice is either Hard or nothing to do with natural qi. Rou Jing is Within Soft Carry Hard. The hardness comes from the Soft. After a few years of ZhengQi cultivation your body will go thru a process most call; Bone Squeezing. Your bones get harder from being packed with qi. So, you take your body to the heaviest soft to REALLY know the difference between Soft and Hard. If you do hard (or the so-called half hard and some soft) you never will know the difference and end up over thinking about the process. JR

Don't need to watch it, as I've seen this clip many, many times as it's quite old! Personally, like you say, this is not Martial Arts it's a natural development. So natural, in fact, that maybe even John Chang doesn't 'know' how he got to this level let alone actually teach anyone else!!

Not true. Sifu Chang knows exactly how to cultivate this just like anyone who has gone thru the process. Its Damm SIMPLE. If you watch the clip you will also see Sifu Chang has one of his students in the clip. He teaches it but like I said, its not something that the people who have this cultivation typically Mass Produce. Can it, no doubt. Do they? Almost Never! In the book, Warriors of Stillness vol1, Sifu Cai Song Feng discusses Zheng Qi in the early chapters. Later he gets into more esoteric practices but the beginning chapters give some good info.. JR

The 'electricity' bolt or spark I can only suggest is an old 'common illusion'.

Really? Can you do it? Can you explain the illusion? The earth sits in this giant field of magnetism. We have a lot of stuff right in front of us that we dont even realize. Its only an illusion when you dont undertand something. The meters at the end show he was generating the energy and shock. The reactions of those who recieve the qi touch/shock also show its a reality. Just some thoughts. JR

Gotta run!

[Hendrik]

You see, you all love to discuss about experience.

and when I describe my experience some dont think I contribute to anything.


hahaha.


See, what you think and what reality often is 10000 miles away.

Everyone want to argue about Qi.....

But the fact is does one really have control?


One can go Jam Jong for 1000000 years. But if one have no clue about what is the process and what is one looking for. what is the different between Jam Jong and day dreaming or fantasying?


Chi Gong Chi Gong....etc. what the heck is that? what is the core of Chi Gong? Qi? forget about it. if it is Qi then the Taiji Classical would NOT say " in yee not in Qi, in Qi, one got stagnated".

Doesnt make sense? sure, it doesnt make sense for our logical speculative mind.

Until one knows what is mind, one cant quiet it down, one cant stop the thoughts. and how far one could get handling energy? that is the first logic, but NONE qoestion that and keep discussing the experience of QI QI QI? what Qi? if the CPU of the computer is at its random operation what good could it do for handling energy management?




as it said in Zen,

The Dummy leads the Dummy,

One leads but both are clueless

The Sifu goes to hell

and

Where you think the Student will end up?



The reality is QiGung is a energy cultivation. and the first thing in Energy Cultivation is MIND handling. and the first thing in Mind Handling is could one quiet one's mind? and without going that path. it is all ego argueing and fantasying.

How could keep ego arguing and fantasying or day dreaming contribute to quiet the mind? if the mind cannot be be quiet and run totally reverse ---generate more garbage such as day dreaming, argueing, and fatnasying, how the heck is that contribute to Energy Cultivation? sure, it contributes to chaos and dissapation instead of cultivate of energy which is a reverse gear to pull.


I am a student because how vast is the Universe. HOw many million and millions of expert in this field. That is the reality.

if you are the million and millions of expert in this field I salute you. However, if you have no clue of what is what. you better go find a real sifu and learn otherwise you are going to waste your life with fantasy. IMHO


Just some thouthgs. and if you are serious about energy cultivation. Go seek out a good sifu.




peace


PS.

I like to use Energy cultivation term instead of Qigong here because that is what it is. we dont need to mystified it. and there is a basic platfrom needed for Energy Cultivation, be it ZaZen, different type of Qigong, to biofeed back.... and that is COULD one enter in to Alfa state at will?

Those who could enter into Alfa doesnt default to they know Energy Cultivation. but those who dont know how to enter into Alfa state AT WILL for sure dont have a clue about ZaZen, Qigong.....etc. That is reality and that is scientific. So Why go for Qigong this my intepretation that, check it out.

And that is also why I said, what I post is heaven and earth different betweent those who think EEG has nothing todo with Qi flow. ---

1 no Alfa NO Qi handling----- in modern Scientific language

2, it is in the Yee not the Qi, in the Qi, one got stagnated------ in Taiji classical.


Both, modern and ancient, saying the same thing.

and also, there is another component Shen or spirit involve......

Thus, it is not Qigong or breath work or qi flow as you think or you post.


Wake up or else you go no where.


BTW. you all who is lurking and have high cultivation please speak up. otherwise lots of people will got mislead and wasting life. So please share with us your advance experience. Save them decades of even a life time of wasting life walking a wrong path. Thanks

[Hendrik]

Can someone (anyone!) tell me how the first set of SLT affects your internal organs?



Sure, via activation of the 8 special medirians.

But is your Nim Tau small enough until you could quiet down your mind?

as it said in the Kuen Kuit, using silence to handling action.

[chusauli]

Can someone (anyone!) tell me how the first set of SLT affects your internal organs?


Hi Spencer,

I haven't been following this post at all, but was just browsing and came to your question.

Its very simple - diaphramatic breathing and thoracic movement (i.e. core muscles and intercostal movement) serves to massage the internal organs - the heart, liver, lungs, kidney, spleen, ensuring blood flow, and with that nutrition, waste removal, and repair to the internal organs. This is understood in Western Medicine and Chinese Medicine.

The Chinese medicine thought is Qi guides the blood, blood stores and holds Qi, and Yi Nian (intention) moves the Qi. So therefore, Siu Nim Tao can affect your internal organs.

Now if SNT practice has only shallow breathing (i.e. chest breathing), and no movement of the thoracic region and is simply an exercise of moving the limbs, your mileage may vary. Of course, it is quite common to se WCK practitioners with a pot belly and poor health these days, also. Isolated movements of the limbs is poor gung fu (attainment).

Hope this helps.

Best regards,

[Hendrik]

Hi Spencer,

I haven't been following this post at all, but was just browsing and came to your question.

Its very simple - diaphramatic breathing and thoracic movement (i.e. core muscles and intercostal movement) serves to massage the internal organs - the heart, liver, lungs, kidney, spleen, ensuring blood flow, and with that nutrition, waste removal, and repair to the internal organs. This is understood in Western Medicine and Chinese Medicine.

The Chinese medicine thought is Qi guides the blood, blood stores and holds Qi, and Yi Nian (intention) moves the Qi. So therefore, Siu Nim Tao can affect your internal organs.

Now if SNT practice has only shallow breathing (i.e. chest breathing), and no movement of the thoracic region and is simply an exercise of moving the limbs, your mileage may vary. Of course, it is quite common to se WCK practitioners with a pot belly and poor health these days, also. Isolated movements of the limbs is poor gung fu (attainment).

Hope this helps.

Best regards,


Robert,

Excellent !

Best Regards
Hendrik

[drleungjohn]

I would add the closing of Hui Yin to contract the pelvic diaphragm and the tilting of the pelvis to lengthen the spine so the head is over the sacrum-this gives the base a foundation for the dropping of organs into the pelvic well,thereby having something to compress the organs against when breathing properly--

[KPM]

Here's a related question for you gentlemen. Is performing the SNT form regularly (or standing in the YGKYM) the equivalent of practicing the "standing post" or Jam Jong posture for a comparable amount of time?

[Hendrik]

I would add the closing of Hui Yin to contract the pelvic diaphragm and the tilting of the pelvis to lengthen the spine so the head is over the sacrum-this gives the base a foundation for the dropping of organs into the pelvic well,thereby having something to compress the organs against when breathing properly--



IMHO,

Yes and no.

If one purposely do this then it is no longer nature or following the rythm or harmony of the body. That needs to be watched out.

Thus, one needs to have one's specific training tightly coach by expereince sifu to ensure wellness.


Just some thoughts.

[Hendrik]

Here's a related question for you gentlemen. Is performing the SNT form regularly (or standing in the YGKYM) the equivalent of practicing the "standing post" or Jam Jong posture for a comparable amount of time?


The Energy Cultivation path is a very board and very detail define realm. Eventhough, it is true when one reach the advance, it is just LET GO and LET GOD. That's it.

However, in the process to get there, there are lots of things needs to know and handle and master. It is not supprise to just cultivate a single breathing menthod for years before one could do anything.



This is a paradifm we cant get into generalization. there are knobs and knobs needs to be master and handle. one needs to know these knobs and different ways of handling them based on different lineage or style. It is not something one could have in a few hours it is years and decade stuffs.


As I mention above, get an EEG machine check if one could get into the Alfa state at will at any instant. only after that one then could learn ZaZen or Qigong or as it said entering into the door. High Tech is great, it could use as a great instrument to check one's state which the ancient dont have access to for teaching purpose.


One need to define what is Jam Jong. what is the goal one intended to achieve and what is one practicing.

also, one needs to define what is SNT Form? what is the goal one intended to achieve and what is one practicing.

before one ask the question.


Certainly, I might sound harsh or cold or bad...... etc

However, if we intend to have real discussion instead of B$ing. Face the Fact and these are all facts needs to be faced. otherwise, it is a good entertainment but not a real technology.


Peace

[Vajramusti]

Joy,

Thus, I have heard,
With experience instead of thought or speculation.
There are no two paradigms and not one either. IMHO. Thus, no bridge is needed.(Hendrik)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hendrik- ofcourse the right experience rather than thought or speculation is the key...
and at the experience level you (any you) leave the boat and the paradigm behind,

You do not always do your positions justice always by not listening or reading carefully
and replying hastily.

Without an initial paradigm there would not be the invention of an eeg machine.

joy chaudhuri

[Hendrik]

J



1, ofcourse the right experience rather than thought or speculation is the key...
and at the experience level you (any you) leave the boat and the paradigm behind,



2, You do not always do your positions justice always by not listening or reading carefully
and replying hastily.



joy chaudhuri


1, and so what is the description of the RIGHT experience? anyone care to descrip it and share?



2, Perhaps I react as you think I am. and it is an excellent advice. or

Perhaps, I scan the vibes of the post and reply according to the vibration spontaneously?



That I leave it to the Nature to tell the story.
sure make our world more interesting with variation.


Peace

[Vajramusti]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Joy,

Thus, I have heard,
With experience instead of thought or speculation.(Hendik said that))

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------



1, and so what is the description of the RIGHT experience? anyone care to descrip it and share?

((Hendrik- the reference to experience originates in your post.See above quote from the thread.You can answer your own question))



Perhaps, I scan the vibes of the post and reply according to the vibration spontaneously?( sez Hendrik)

((That would be an amazing talent if it were true))(joy chaudhuri))

[drleungjohn]

-I agree with what you say-most people have no consciousness of that connection physically or spiritually and it must be taught and learned,and trained-until it becomes natural

DrLJC

[Hendrik]

-I agree with what you say-most people have no consciousness of that connection physically or spiritually and it must be taught and learned,and trained-until it becomes natural

DrLJC



I totally agree with you.

IMHO, the issue with Qigong is if one doesnt have the foundation but mimic some action thinking that is Qigong. that is very misleading and could even damage oneself. These stuffs needed to be straighten and clearify. or more education in this field needs to be passed to the general public.


Peace

[Hendrik]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Joy,

Thus, I have heard,
With experience instead of thought or speculation.(Hendik said that))

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------



1, and so what is the description of the RIGHT experience? anyone care to descrip it and share?

((Hendrik- the reference to experience originates in your post.See above quote from the thread.You can answer your own question))



Perhaps, I scan the vibes of the post and reply according to the vibration spontaneously?( sez Hendrik)

((That would be an amazing talent if it were true))(joy chaudhuri))


Joy,

Thanks.

You have a good point.

Peace

[Hendrik]

The reality is simple, as the Confusius said, " if one knows then say so, if not then say so."


When it comes to qigong, Zen, Dao ... I dont give face.
That is because ir-responsible to mislead others. I rather shatter the conversation then mislead others. find if you hate me because you lost face and hurting your ego. IMHO. and some one might not like my view, and that is fine.

I am not interested in egoistic argument or smart talk. I believe anyone who provide information need to know there are responsibility involve.

One need to know to not mis-lead others to fantasy or damage just because one tries to boost one's ego.

and how much do I know? as a student, I know as much as I have bein train. Not much not less. and Certainly I could learn more from those who is more advance then me with thier Vibes not talk.


Finally, as in my above post, What is Zhen Qi? could one evoke it at will? What is Alfa State, Could one enter it at will? if not one cant discuss about Qigong. that is because what could one discuss when one doesnt even have the most basic understanding? one could learn but what could one discuss?

BTW entering Alfa is the first gate of Qigong cultivation. In the past, that is the way, in the present that is the way, and in the future that is the way. In the ancient Chinese, Entering into Alfa is called "ru Jing" or entering into Silence. and one's kung fu in internal art is directly propotion to the ability to enter. Thus, if any one claim they have Qigong or doing SLT /SNT as Qigong,.... etc and they have no clue of how to get into alfa. One knows they dont have it. That basic. how the heck one is going to talk about Shen and Qi if one doesnt have these basic? it is totally illogic but we dont like to think that way.

Qigong is not breath work. in today's language, it is energy work --- it is breath work and physical work after one could enter into Alfa state . and then only after that, the Zhen Qi will surface. So, dont fantasy standing there Jam Jong...etc will get one to levitate or get this Qi power....etc. Dont fantasy. Qigong is scientific, Zazen is scientific. Think about it, if it is not scientific how can one handle it consistencely? Not to mention. repeat stuffs like this.


http://www.u-energy.org/ScienceTest/DistanceHealing2007.html
http://www.u-energy.org/ScienceTest/DistanceHealing2006.html

I appology for my word is hard. however, dont you all like the truth so that somedays you could also master the cultivation?


Get a real Qigong or Zen teachers such as

http://www.u-energy.org/AboutUs/AboutUs_En.htm

or

http://www.bigmind.org/Big%20Mind/findingbigmind_page.html


stop monkey around as know it all because one read a few books or watched a few CDs or videos. it is your life you are wasting if you dont have a proper door to enter. IMHO

and BTW.

Plant some trees and help the ECO system,

http://americanforest.org/

that is also a part of Qigong or Dao cultivation. Without the ECO and trees one doesnt have a nature.

Cant just repeat -- Dao mimic nature and Dao mimic nature--- as in DAo De ching but poluting the evironment with plastic bags and polution and dont give a damm if there is trees or the nature eco system's. What Dao? if one doesnt even aware of one's action which is not helping the nature.

It is not about talking it is about doing. and we dont like to take that serious do we?

Peace

[guy b.]

Certainly, I might sound harsh or cold or bad...... etc. However, if we intend to have real discussion instead of B$ing. Face the Fact and these are all facts needs to be faced. otherwise, it is a good entertainment but not a real technology.

Hendrik, nobody is arguing with you about your qi gung stuff. Probably everyone is very interested to hear what you might (eventually) say. I know I am.

If you dump the persecution complex and just try typing short, concise posts saying what you want to say, and avoiding the non-existent argument you imagine yourself to be in, then you will find things progress much more smoothly. So far I get the alpha wave brain state thing. Good. Now what? Are you actually going somewhere with this, or is it just attention whoring? I know you mean well, but honestly, you read like a caricatured old master from a 70s kung fu movie.

[Jim Roselando]

Harvard/Benson Institute

https://www.mbmi.org/home/

*

This research was recently aired on HD TV. Great Research!

Tibetan Monk Qi study

https://www.mbmi.org/about/articles/press/meditation_temperature.pdf

[donbdc]

I have done a few systems of Chi Kung. I have had quite a few teachers from varying backgrounds. and Yes I've read books about it(I personally don't think readng is a bad thing), taken several courses in Medical accupuncture. I have come to believe that everything you need is in Wing Chun, you don't need to go outside the system, its already their. I do the SLT every day w/ some specialised breathing. I t works great. How do I know? I don't catch colds like i use to and my energy levels are better. It's been that way for 2 years now.

[T.D.O]

that was a long read.... but very interesting:D

i'll need to check out thoughs links....;)

[Hendrik]

Hendrik, nobody is arguing with you about your qi gung stuff. Probably everyone is very interested to hear what you might (eventually) say. I know I am.

If you dump the persecution complex and just try typing short, concise posts saying what you want to say, and avoiding the non-existent argument you imagine yourself to be in, then you will find things progress much more smoothly. So far I get the alpha wave brain state thing. Good. Now what? Are you actually going somewhere with this, or is it just attention whoring? I know you mean well, but honestly, you read like a caricatured old master from a 70s kung fu movie.



Great suggestion.

[Hendrik]

I have done a few systems of Chi Kung. I have had quite a few teachers from varying backgrounds. and Yes I've read books about it(I personally don't think readng is a bad thing), taken several courses in Medical accupuncture. I have come to believe that everything you need is in Wing Chun, you don't need to go outside the system, its already their. I do the SLT every day w/ some specialised breathing. I t works great. How do I know? I don't catch colds like i use to and my energy levels are better. It's been that way for 2 years now.



sure, if you could evoke your zhen Qi at will and lead them.

[donbdc]

Well hendrick ,"to evoke at will" is the name of the game. The proverbs tell us the mind is the general and the chi soldiers. The more you do it the easier it is. In the Som Bai fut section the where is clearly spelled out.

[KPM]

Hendrik wrote:
As I mention above, get an EEG machine check if one could get into the Alfa state at will at any instant. only after that one then could learn ZaZen or Qigong or as it said entering into the door. High Tech is great, it could use as a great instrument to check one's state which the ancient dont have access to for teaching purpose.

---OK. Let me see if I understand what you SEEM to be saying. This seems like an answer to my original question. If you had said this from the beginning you could have saved lots of time, frustration, and bandwidth. You SEEM to be saying that the common point for "insight" meditation and Chi Gung is the ability to attain an alpha state. From there the Chi will flow naturally, and the mind will open naturally. But beyond this beginning or foundational state, does "insight" meditation and Chi Gung continue to overlap? Will Chi cultivation as found in more advanced Chi Gung help produce the insight that a person seeks in Zazen?


However, if we intend to have real discussion instead of B$ing. Face the Fact and these are all facts needs to be faced.

---If we intend to have a real discussion, a good start is to do away with the extraneous B$ing that you put into most of your posts. Keep to the point. Express clearly what you think. And leave off with the "oriental master" BS!

[Jim Roselando]

Interesting clip!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nu99GRUUN6Y&feature=PlayList&p=AFB6DF96B479907A&index=0

Notice the Sifu is stressing the Mind and mentions you need 3 years for a foundation!

[Hendrik]

Hendrik wrote:
As I mention above, get an EEG machine check if one could get into the Alfa state at will at any instant. only after that one then could learn ZaZen or Qigong or as it said entering into the door. High Tech is great, it could use as a great instrument to check one's state which the ancient dont have access to for teaching purpose.

---OK. Let me see if I understand what you SEEM to be saying. This seems like an answer to my original question. If you had said this from the beginning you could have saved lots of time, frustration, and bandwidth. You SEEM to be saying that the common point for "insight" meditation and Chi Gung is the ability to attain an alpha state. From there the Chi will flow naturally, and the mind will open naturally. But beyond this beginning or foundational state, does "insight" meditation and Chi Gung continue to overlap? Will Chi cultivation as found in more advanced Chi Gung help produce the insight that a person seeks in Zazen?


However, if we intend to have real discussion instead of B$ing. Face the Fact and these are all facts needs to be faced.

---If we intend to have a real discussion, a good start is to do away with the extraneous B$ing that you put into most of your posts. Keep to the point. Express clearly what you think. And leave off with the "oriental master" BS!



Great.

I certainly accept the way you post and what you SEEM from your mind set.


Thanks and good luck.

[KPM]

Great.

I certainly accept the way you post and what you SEEM from your mind set.


Thanks and good luck.


Ah! From that it certainly SEEMS like you aren't truly interested in discussing this.

[KPM]

Sifu John Chang gives a great demo in this youtube clip of his qi cultivation. If you listen he will credit Meditation for his powers:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAAB0dbc3Es&feature=PlayList&p=AFB6DF96B479907A&index=2


:)

Interesting video! I had seen part of it in the past, but not the whole thing. Sifu Chang certainly does have some interesting talents and abilities! But this still begs the question in my mind. While he had these amazing abilities, he didn't come across as a particularly highly evolved "spiritual" person. The narrator didn't comment on any such qualities. These are the qualities you hear about that eminate from Buddhist masters. I've read about how the Dalai Lama seems to give off this aura of peace and tranquility, and that people can sense that they are in the presence of a highly evolved individual. I was around a Zen Master once and could sense this coming from him. So do all of these Chi abilities really have anything to do with developing spiritually?

I also noticed something rather interesting in the video. The narrator comments that he went to see Sifu Chang for treatment of an eye problem. Yet later in the video the narrator is seen wearing an eye patch. Were Sifu Chang's treatments not successful?

[KPM]

Interesting clip!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nu99GRUUN6Y&feature=PlayList&p=AFB6DF96B479907A&index=0

Notice the Sifu is stressing the Mind and mentions you need 3 years for a foundation!


Notice too that all the demo's are done on the Sifu's students. Neither Bill Moyers or the narrator is invited to be on the receiving end. I've noticed this about similar Chi demo's I've seen in the past. I'm not saying that its all just the "powers of suggestion." But some level of "susceptibility" on the receiver's part certainly seems to be at work. I saw one video of a Karate master demonstrating his Chi on his students that looked very similar. He was throwong them all around the gym without touching them. Then that same Karate master agreed to a match with a MMA guy, thinking he would stop him with his Chi. The MMA guy didn't buy into this mindset and simply stepped in and popped the Chi master right in the face! The guy went down with this surprised look on his face and didn't get back up! :eek:

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


Qi makes not a great fighter. Qi means your body has gone thru certain training and is running like a car that goes in for regular oil/lube. The Mind Faat do make for some excellent attribute builders!

All these demo's are what they are. Anyone who has met someone that has cultivated the Qi/Mind will know what it feels like when an experts pumps Qi thru your body. You can feel it without a doubt.

If you wanna debunk the test then you just poke him in the eye just before you start. There are lots of ways to debunk something but the reality is with Heat sensors and other modern science finally being able to read this stuff I think its better to figure out the fastest way to develop it for yourself and what benefit does it give the practitioner.


Spirituality? "Yin" Qi is the secret to the so-called Spiritual connection stuff. One can also say that in Stillness (alpha) one can see the reality but being able to attain Alpha does not mean one will go thru the process of Qi cultivation (alchemy). These are two very important factors, they work hand in hand, but enter alpha will not mean you will evoke Zheng Qi by default. Qi treatments work much better if the Doctor put you on a Qi exercise program. You heal yourself as the Doctor gives you added help. I have seen many people get almost nothing for a "visit" to the qi doctor. Its common sense stuff. Similar to a doctor recommending taking a medicine but not regular exercise.

I suggest you locate a real Chinese Doctor and have him do his thing on you. If you dont feel anything then he is a fake. Its just that simple. If you do feel the something then ask him to set up a training program for your to develop what everyone has the potential to develop. This sort of stuff will take you into deep subject of modern science. Human Being Radio Astronomy (snake frequency) being one of them!

[Hendrik]

Jim,

IMHO, there is nothing to discuss and all communication is real but nothing to discuss.


For example, you now know about Zhen Qi via your experience and the process. But, if you return to years ago, how could you imagine what is Zhen Qi? May be you could share, how is the Zhen Qi you experience different then those stuffs you read in the book, thinking outloud, and watching video clips and thinking you know it understand it......?

IMHO, unless one has cross that point of no return or broken the limits of one's faulty speculate mind set and expectation. One simply dont know and cant figure out.







As for Spiritual, most people think about spiritual as Religious or believe in a certain things or people or diety....or a tradition of a culture.etc. Well what is Spiritual? the Daoist said, Dao minic Nature. The Zen said Let it be. The Christian Said, Let Go Let GOD. See, all of these doesnt attach to a religion, a person,,,etc. one could go learn all the chinese tradition or tibetian tradition belive and actually not spiritual at all.

Thus, what is spiritual? IMHO, if one cant get into Alfa state at will. Then one is not likely to be spiritual. and if one could get into alfa by chance or music...etc that still doesnt mean one is spiritual.

Why is this important? Spiritual, Awareness, all these stuffs need to have the basic ability of Entering Alpha state in today's language.





Spiritual in the ancient Chinese is link to Shen, and what is Shen? what is Yee? those needs to be thought. Be it Zen, Daoist, Christian...or qigong.... all needs to be able to handle this Shen and Yee....




Just some thoughts.
peace

[Hendrik]

Well hendrick ,"to evoke at will" is the name of the game. The proverbs tell us the mind is the general and the chi soldiers. The more you do it the easier it is. In the Som Bai fut section the where is clearly spelled out.



1

That is not the name of the game. That is just a begining. IMHHHO.

mind is not the general. for one needs to quiet down the mind to lead the Qi.

One needs to go to the realm of Shen and Yee. Otherwise, one doesnt have it. and to enter to the realm of Shen and Yee, one needs alfa entering at will capabilities as basic.

without having handling on Shen and Yee, forget about using Yee to lead Qi.





2,

how do the Som Bai Fut section spelled out? Could you eleborate in term of Shen, Yee, Qi, Mai, and Mind?





Just some thoughts

[donbdc]

You are right it is just the beggining.
I believe Shen is what you are born w/. To my understanding we start w/ a certain amt. different per individual. I believe we are to purify it through meditation, diet and excercises.
A lot of it I might not understand. I don't know how to wire a house, I don't know how electricity actual makes this PC work. However, here I am writing to you over the internet. I am not saying this to be smart, just to make a point. I don't need to know allof the specific details to make it work. Agreed my understandin and utilization is strictly rudimentry, but it has been working for me. I am 47y.o. in the best shape of my life b/c of it.
By the way, I am always interested in learning more.
Som Bai Fut is what we call the slow section of the SLT (praying 3 times to Buddha). Have a good day
Don

[mantis108]

You are right it is just the beggining.
I believe Shen is what you are born w/. To my understanding we start w/ a certain amt. different per individual. I believe we are to purify it through meditation, diet and excercises.
A lot of it I might not understand. I don't know how to wire a house, I don't know how electricity actual makes this PC work. However, here I am writing to you over the internet. I am not saying this to be smart, just to make a point. I don't need to know allof the specific details to make it work. Agreed my understandin and utilization is strictly rudimentry, but it has been working for me. I am 47y.o. in the best shape of my life b/c of it.
By the way, I am always interested in learning more.
Som Bai Fut is what we call the slow section of the SLT (praying 3 times to Buddha). Have a good day
Don

If I may ...

Shen (神) is more of a preferred term of Daoism to describe existence transcendentally. However, it's not reached solely through mental disciplines but also empirically. To use a western philosophical perspective, it is of the realm of truth rather than the realm of real (reality). In other words, it is rather ontological than physical. Confucianism perfers the term Xing (性) when in discussion theoretically; while they would use the term Xin (心) or mind empirically. Imagine the process of life is like a bright light that filters through a crystal spectrum. All things, including human of course, is the rainbow of colors that resulted. Men as a whole is like the ultra violet ray that being the most active. The process of realizing that ultra violet ray that is the same as the original bright light and just be that light is the same realization of those who understood what Shen is about. The question is whether it can behave the same as the original light but not simply mimic it. There is nothing hocus pocus about it as some people would want you to believe it.

I believe you have a very healthy attitude and I think you are better equiped to get acquinted to the approach towards that end than a lot of the pseudo-intellectuals who appear out of nowhere wearing shades, dressing in black ties and suits, saying a few non sensible things, calling themselves Smiths and claim to be the gate keepers of the truth (more like trueism). It's a good thing that you didn't fall into their Lab-Rat Doctrine of true. Thank God Almighty, we are not "living" in the Matrix. :eek:

You are better off finding your own way IMHO. Good journey. :)

Mantis108

[Hendrik]

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=SWHeDNo-GV8&feature=related

enjoy

[donbdc]

Is that you Hendrick:D?
Just kiddin.
Have a good day. Have fun!

[Hendrik]

Is that you Hendrick:D?
Just kiddin.
Have a good day. Have fun!


Yup! I am singing. I wish. hahaha


I like the song.

[Hendrik]

The path is one, be it in China, India, or USA.






The Flow

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=kWl6eDh_0Ow&feature=related



The Truth



http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=z9nOD6foI64&feature=related

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=wIm79YLYzbo&feature=related


something good to know to begin with

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=4yukabTG0Kk&feature=related

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=IzWnHNab2ag&feature=related



Om shanti shanti shanti

Om peace peace peace



There is no different in the path of SNT or SLT... only some travel further and some got stuck or side track into fighting ...