Evasion in WC?

[Wu Wei Wu]

Just curious as to how people view evasion in Wing Chun. Why is it that WC doesn't seem to teach something as natural as getting the head out of the way when someone is trying to hit you. Instead it seems to concentrate on engaging the enemy with the arms ('bridges').

On that note, how do you train evasion? Do you tend to use for example, boxing type slips?

Is it better to evade, defend, deflect or simply cover?

Suki

[Vajramusti]

I dont know you or what kind of wing chun you do...but a considered opinion---
you dont have to bob and weave unless you have to for lack of other alternatives... if the wing chun structure and stance and footwork is learned well- a small movement can be evasive with or without the bridge being initially in contact. Also you can evade and hit at the same time, if you need to with or without bridge contact. Bridge contact could allow you to use the other person's force.
No arrogance intended.
Its all about learning fundamentals well.
Learn your chum kiu well.

joy chaudhuri.

[couch]

I think your position is correct, WWW, that there doesn't seem to be any simple evasion tactics such as slipping, etc.

However, when I practice the Jong, there's a motion of a low side palm while working your way to the side... I find this a good time to practice the slip of the head, among others.

I see Wing Chun as a very adaptable system and the way I like to do it is definitely to combine such movements as those in sparring, etc.

On the other side of the coin, in most self-defense/scenario drills, covering centre and going through the front door works great for me without any other movements of the head, etc.

Best,
Kenton Sefcik

[JPinAZ]

Hello,

As I see it, you don't need slipping or dodging in WC unless you did something very very wrong (or, IMO, you shouldn't 'need' it at all). If you missed the bridge during that stage of the fight and your only alternative to not getting hit is dodging out of the way, then you most likely were either caught by suprise, very slow, drunk, really poor timing, etc or you just don't have enough WC.

From my perspective, if you have proper gate coverage and understand how to occupy your space correctly with stong strucuture, you should be able to defend against an initial attack rather easily. If this first attempt fails you always have your wu sau as back up. If this also fails to defend against the first inital attack, I'd say you've got problems with your WC, so yeah, you might need something else (and by 'you', I don't mean 'you' specifically). But I don't see that WC really needs slips nor dodging/ducking if operating under WC principals.

Now if someone really gets into your space and has you jammed up during bridging then you might need evasive-like foot work to get your space back. This is called Wui Ma as I leearn WC. But to slip to the side with your head or duck, weave, etc breaks your body alignment which is a no-no IMO.

But then again, you do what you have to to win the fight... So if that's your only alternative, you use it. But I would say it goes against what WC teaches.

Jonathan

[k gledhill]

bil gee contains ducking, arm chasing , removing wrist grabs etc... think sharp knife coming at you and you will duck :D
Weapons guide the bare hands not the other way round....

Perimiter fighting is essential knowledge, not lead leg charges to your death by knife ;)

the rear hand /vusao is a slipping action to a strike as we counter strike...using cutting angles , fadeing and slipping as we enter...we attack by the way as we slip....

[Phil Redmond]

Just curious as to how people view evasion in Wing Chun. Why is it that WC doesn't seem to teach something as natural as getting the head out of the way when someone is trying to hit you. Instead it seems to concentrate on engaging the enemy with the arms ('bridges').

On that note, how do you train evasion? Do you tend to use for example, boxing type slips?

Is it better to evade, defend, deflect or simply cover?

Suki
Win by any means neccessary in a fight. If you have to duck then duck. If you have to jump to avoid something coming at your legs then jump. After I win I can discuss with the people who say I won in the wrong way. Don't live in a box

[couch]

bil gee contains ducking, arm chasing , removing wrist grabs etc... think sharp knife coming at you and you will duck :D
Weapons guide the bare hands not the other way round....

Perimiter fighting is essential knowledge, not lead leg charges to your death by knife ;)

the rear hand /vusao is a slipping action to a strike as we counter strike...using cutting angles , fadeing and slipping as we enter...we attack by the way as we slip....

Logged in just now to mention this as well. Biu Jee (in the version I do) has the neck stretch and come back as the first downward elbows come out. I have used this type evasion successfully many times.

Best,
Kenton Sefcik

[kung fu fighter]

Hi Wu Wei Wu !

Evasion concept is more emphasized in the dummy and weapons forms. There are 8 basic possible angles of evasion in wing chun, they are taught in the pole form.

How do you guys evade/counter hooking type attacks that go around the centerline as you are attacking down the centerline?

Navin

[k gledhill]

do people still attack charging down the centerline ?:D :rolleyes:

[monji112000]

Just curious as to how people view evasion in Wing Chun. Why is it that WC doesn't seem to teach something as natural as getting the head out of the way when someone is trying to hit you. Instead it seems to concentrate on engaging the enemy with the arms ('bridges').

On that note, how do you train evasion? Do you tend to use for example, boxing type slips?

Is it better to evade, defend, deflect or simply cover?

Suki

This is probably the most common misconception. WC teaches evasion, its in the footwork, and the timing. Bridging is a general idea most people believe its something that resembles enter the dragon, but its any contact you have. That can mean a split second, and it doesn't mean you need to do anything unrealistic like most people try.

Its better to protect yourself. That can mean evading, defending, covering, jamming in, or anything else. use common sense not the BS most people use as a religion.
Just my not so humble opinion.
I'm sure nobody will agree.
:rolleyes:


Don't live in a box

The box doesn't exist, except in some peoples mind.


I think your position is correct, WWW, that there doesn't seem to be any simple evasion tactics such as slipping, etc.
100% bunk. I practice it all the time.


Win by any means neccessary in a fight. If you have to duck then duck. If you have to jump to avoid something coming at your legs then jump. After I win I can discuss with the people who say I won in the wrong way. Don't live in a box


Hi Wu Wei Wu !

Evasion concept is more emphasized in the dummy and weapons forms. There are 8 basic possible angles of evasion in wing chun, they are taught in the pole form.

How do you guys evade/counter hooking type attacks that go around the centerline as you are attacking down the centerline?

Navin

that depends on allot of things but if your jamming in you must turn your body and use something to cover like a tan sao. You can evade but normally if someone is throwing a hook it is quick. Jamming maybe the best option (maybe). The qwan sao is also an effective technqiue when combined with turning. You can land the bong part of the qwan sao on his face (or whatever target.)

Here is a better question, how do you handle a barrage of punches. They could be straight.. maybe you are surprise.. it could be a sucker punch or he is just better than you.
You may have to evade and then jam in with a attack.

[kung fu fighter]

do people still attack charging down the centerline ?:D :rolleyes:

Depends on which linage you ask, I attack along triangles (sam gok ma), but still I find it difficult defending against circular attacks such as hook punches that don't travel along the centerline.

How do you attack?

How would you defend against hook punches when you are chasing the opponent to finish him off with combinations without getting hit, or like in this clip?

http://podcast.blog.webs-tv.net/m/722334

[Matrix]

Why is it that WC doesn't seem to teach something as natural as getting the head out of the way when someone is trying to hit you. Instead it seems to concentrate on engaging the enemy with the arms ('bridges').Suki,
It's definitely taught where I train. As others have pointed out it's in Biu Che, the dummy and other places. It's just another dimension to the game.

As always, your mileage may vary.

Bill

[Wu Wei Wu]

If someone throws a ball at you it is fine to react by catching it or parrying it away. However, if someone throws a dart you would be far less likely to attempt to catch or parry it. The simplest thing would be to evade. Moving the head out of the way would be faster than trying to move the entire body as a unit, so this would be the quickest tactic as well as the most natural.

I was taught that Wing Chun should remain simple. So if the simplest solution would be to move the head, then guess what...

In terms of hitting I was taught to do the following:
1) evade (without bridging) and then hit (the best method)
2) bridge with one limb and hit with another limb
3) deflect and hit with the same limb (least effective)

My experience in pressure testing is that if one decides to rely purely on "wing chun structure, stance and footwork" without moving the head out of the way (considering it is the PRIME target) then one better have a strong chin!

This isn't to say that what I do is low level Wing Chun, on the contrary, good Wing Chun is to do what works including but not limited to, slipping, jumping, biting, gouging or breakdancing!


KFF,
In terms of dealing with hooks, some tactics I employ are
a) to hit upon or prior to set up,
b) evade/slip and counter
c) cover (absorb the impact) and counter

I have found most recently in sparring that I am more inclined to cover and counter against a quick, non-telegraphic puncher.

Suki Gosal

[k gledhill]

Depends on which linage you ask, I attack along triangles (sam gok ma), but still I find it difficult defending against circular attacks such as hook punches that don't travel along the centerline.

How do you attack?

How would you defend against hook punches when you are chasing the opponent to finish him off with combinations without getting hit, or like in this clip?

http://podcast.blog.webs-tv.net/m/722334


to start off change tactics...dont adopt a lead leg , attack a side given as a lead strike..train this in seung ma toi ma drills ..chasing should bedone as 'sticking' to the opponents taking his working space away...not like the clip ...the attacker is not doing it correctly ...VT is training concepts ..to attack constantly ...NOT chase constantly , a big difference ;).....

[kung fu fighter]

KFF,
In terms of dealing with hooks, some tactics I employ are
a) to hit upon or prior to set up,
b) evade/slip and counter
c) cover (absorb the impact) and counter

I have found most recently in sparring that I am more inclined to cover and counter against a quick, non-telegraphic puncher.

Suki Gosal

So you use more of a western boxing/JKD type approach to defend?

[Wu Wei Wu]

KFF,

I haven't studied Western boxing nor JKD.

What I use is the kuen/boxing of (Hei Ban/Opera Company) Wing Chun.

Suki Gosal

[couch]

do people still attack charging down the centerline ?:D :rolleyes:

Yes. :)

Best,
Kenton Sefcik

[KPM]

From another recent thread here on KFO....here is a clip of Wong Shun Leung sharing insights on this topic:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=M72H7q2iabM

[Matrix]

From another recent thread here on KFO....here is a clip of Wong Shun Leung sharing insights on this topic:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=M72H7q2iabM
Keith,
Please note that he's talking about 'dodging'. He also demonstrates this at the beginning of the clip. What I'm talking about is a much more subtle movement - not bobbing and weaving.

Bill

[YungChun]

Keith,
Please note that he's talking about 'dodging'. He also demonstrates this at the beginning of the clip. What I'm talking about is a much more subtle movement - not bobbing and weaving.

Bill
Agreed..

Moving the line, angling, can be done with a subtle slip, or movement of the head--evasion.. Bobbing in the sense of WB, IMO is not seen in the system--doesn't mean you can't do it....

[monji112000]

So you use more of a western boxing/JKD type approach to defend?

those are general ideas, that are not excluded from WC.

[Liddel]

The triangle horse in my VT is all about superior positioning when bridges are in contact and evasion when not in contact.

Thats footwork evasion, weaving is another story.

I utilise actions from the dummy form for weaving away from actions where needed. Footwork is very important for support though and it tends to be towards the outside,(just my habbit now i think about it :rolleyes:)

Youll find 'a VT weave' (IMO:p) in the first section with the side kick, after the first Dai Bong.

Because VT deals with minimal movement, short actions etc evasion for me is very minute. Not as emphasised as say a boxers movements. Although when wearing big gloves my action becomes bigger because the weapon im evading is bigger.

A Wu Sao which checks and protects with a punch is my most used evasion tech, (triangle footwork again) very similar to something youd see from other arts just with VT flavour.

DREW

[YungChun]

The triangle horse in my VT is all about superior positioning when bridges are in contact and evasion when not in contact.

Agreed. I just see it as 'superior positioning' be there contact or not.



Footwork is very important for support though and it tends to be towards the outside,(just my habbit now i think about it :rolleyes:)

I think that's more or less the norm for the system. Some folks I trained with would keep working to the outside until they got behind you. Then they'd take out the legs, etc.


Because VT deals with minimal movement, short actions etc evasion for me is very minute. Not as emphasised as say a boxers movements.

Exactly.. Here we see conservation of motion again as an integral part of the system.


Although when wearing big gloves my action becomes bigger because the weapon im evading is bigger.

Bingo again.. And IMO the openings are often smaller and the angles needed to make them can get bigger too..

[Liddel]

We should note VT also has its own flavour of 'slipping evasion' during contact.

If i Use Tan against a striaght punch and the opponent is stepping foward and fully commited, my Tans contact point does not continue to follow the intital touch point of the weapon/punch.
Its angled in such a way that any further force is moving outside your body and if the opponnet is still moving forward at the time contact is made the punch slips down my Tan making my hand become closer and closer to the opponents mass.

A quick change from Tan to a punch, Ka Blamm. Short and sharp.

IMO this is another type of slipping found in VT and its available in many other VT actions too.

Space and timing are paramount, and your opponnet has to commit but its all there IMO....

DREW

[LoneTiger108]

Youll find 'a VT weave' (IMO:p) in the first section with the side kick, after the first Dai Bong.

Hey Drew! I'm sure that there are more examples of this type of weave found in the Wooden Man Form.

A 'signature' type technique from Lee Shing was something called 'Wang Wan Yiu', like a revolving waist, which allows you to slip closer to the body of your opponent while maintaning high and mid cover. Useful very close as the elbows drive upwards and into the centre quite rapidly while the hands can catch and manipulate if need be...