Again, new videomaterial of Wong Shun Leung

[Dave P]

See this new vid on Youtube... Wong Shun Leung at a seminar. Translations are made by Wang Kiu (another Yip Man student) The 3rd guy is Philipp Bayer. One of WSL's most talented students...

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=M72H7q2iabM

Even more new vids on these links

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=--wgG_TsHIQ
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=5CCH0hDjDOQ
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=zr74wVBi5rY

[k gledhill]

always good to see WSL :D

[KPM]

Thanks for sharing the links! Good clips!

[Matrix]

Great clips. Thank you. Very much appreciated. :)

Bill

[LoneTiger108]

It's always nice to actually see this generation in action and 'talking the talk'. WSL imo was one of the greats.

Thanks David P(eterson?) Your reputation also preceeds you...

[Dave P]

It's Dave van der Poel... I'm a Philipp Bayer student, but I do appreciate Dave Peterson a lot. He's a valuable friend. I Just found the links on other forums and Youtube. It's good to see that people are sharing their video material. Many of us are so grateful. These 1st hand knowledge should not get lost.

[Gurokevin]

Thanks David P(eterson?) Your reputation also preceeds you...

I don't know, but i do not think that "Dave P" is Sifu David Peterson. :confused:

[Mr Punch]

I think David Peterson sometimes posts on here under the cunning monicker of... wait for it...

David Peterson...! :eek: Could be wrong though.

Nice clips, btw. Don't agree with all of it, but yep, WSL was top, IMO.

[LoneTiger108]

I think David Peterson sometimes posts on here under the cunning monicker of... wait for it...

David Peterson...! :eek: Could be wrong though.

Thanks! ;) I thought I'd seen Dave post somewhere else in his full name!

What didn't you agree with in the clip? I thought it was quite good really, with a good piece of advice about follow through striking and chune ging (inch power)

[David Peterson]

Hi Dave, ...thanks for the nod - the respect in returned in full :)

They are good clips, with the three concerning Cham Kiu being shot circa 1986 in Adelaide, South Australia - sadly the translation offered by the late Jim Fung is very poor and does not do justice to what Sifu is offering. Hopefully more of this material will surface eventually, especially the seminar where my Sihing Philipp is the "target" for Sifu's demonstration. Hadn't realised it was Sisuk Wang Kiu doing the translation - his effort is very good indeed and faithful to what Sifu is discussing in his native Cantonese :)
DMP

PS: I also wonder what the earlier poster didn't agree with - it's a bit hard to argue with logic, wouldn't you say?

[Mr Punch]

One man's logic is not necessarily another's!

The bit I wasn't so sure about was the bit where he's explaining the reason why ducking/bobbing/weaving don't work against WC. For the purpose of this thread (should it develop into a discussion) I'm going to use bobbing, but it does cover a few similar but subtly different movements.

I know WSL worked with boxing for some time, so I was kind of surprised, and then again it may be as David just said, an inadequacy in the translation. Of course, as WSL said, if you're good enough at following up, striking with different parts of the arm/hand that's out there you should be able to keep the pressure up on someone using such evasive moves. But as anyone who's boxed/sparred/fought a boxer knows, that bobbing is not the big movement that it's sometimes made out to be.

It all comes down to how good your partners are I guess, but a good boxer will slip and duck very very quickly, and just the head is enough... so the problem isn't that the good chunner can't follow up with something, but that he'll have trouble following with anything effective enough to make a difference, bearing he has to deal with redirecting his first failed strike, adjust range, hit a very quickly and erratically moving target on probably different surfaces at short range though with arms likely to be already extended etc.

Elbows are a good answer of course, but also bearing in mind that at the end of most bobs is a power punch, very often from the inside and at angles that chunners don't deal with too often, you have to make sure you're using your elbow arsenal all the time at those odd angles in sparring, to be able to drop them so easily at will and at speed.

I'm not saying WSL couldn't do it, or that the logic is necessarily faulty, but in a fight with all kinds of factors sometimes making a mockery of logic, I think this kind of point stated as irrefutable will lead to serious problems of execution for most of us humble practitioners.

I understand I may have the honour of meeting you and training with you later in the year, David... and though my boxing is a bit rusty and probably wasn't up to that much in the first place, I'm sure we can have a play with it then! :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

One man's logic is not necessarily another's!

The bit I wasn't so sure about was the bit where he's explaining the reason why ducking/bobbing/weaving don't work against WC. For the purpose of this thread (should it develop into a discussion) I'm going to use bobbing, but it does cover a few similar but subtly different movements.

I know WSL worked with boxing for some time, so I was kind of surprised, and then again it may be as David just said, an inadequacy in the translation. Of course, as WSL said, if you're good enough at following up, striking with different parts of the arm/hand that's out there you should be able to keep the pressure up on someone using such evasive moves. But as anyone who's boxed/sparred/fought a boxer knows, that bobbing is not the big movement that it's sometimes made out to be.

It all comes down to how good your partners are I guess, but a good boxer will slip and duck very very quickly, and just the head is enough... so the problem isn't that the good chunner can't follow up with something, but that he'll have trouble following with anything effective enough to make a difference, bearing he has to deal with redirecting his first failed strike, adjust range, hit a very quickly and erratically moving target on probably different surfaces at short range though with arms likely to be already extended etc.

Elbows are a good answer of course, but also bearing in mind that at the end of most bobs is a power punch, very often from the inside and at angles that chunners don't deal with too often, you have to make sure you're using your elbow arsenal all the time at those odd angles in sparring, to be able to drop them so easily at will and at speed.

I'm not saying WSL couldn't do it, or that the logic is necessarily faulty, but in a fight with all kinds of factors sometimes making a mockery of logic, I think this kind of point stated as irrefutable will lead to serious problems of execution for most of us humble practitioners.

I understand I may have the honour of meeting you and training with you later in the year, David... and though my boxing is a bit rusty and probably wasn't up to that much in the first place, I'm sure we can have a play with it then! :)

Nice post, beat me to it actually.

[couch]

Just a note on something I personally have a problem with:

I don't think that I could hit from an extended position. I honestly think that the "chaining" of techniques would be forefront in my mind and that the extended hand (after missing) would be on its way back while the other hand is on its way out.

Maybe just me...but I don't think I'd like to ever leave my arm extended to follow up with after my opponent evaded. I understand what is being said in the vid...and maybe it's just high-level stuff...or personal preference.

Whadda ya think?

Best,
Kenton Sefcik

[k gledhill]

WSL wasnt saying its bad , he says its good ...'for boxing'...but that if boxers could use any other part of their hands they could strike from the arms positions ...trap head positions that had bobbed down and not allow recovery etc....or strike with 'chop' to the neck etc...
The VT system is geared for attack as the fight not to bob and weave , but to stop the attack by attack , not a sporting bob and weave , back off, come back with a jab/x , back off , came back witha jab/jab/bob weave , back off...

a boxers jab works because of what ? hand speed ..over and over jab jab . Vt doesnt bob because it isnt the concept to fight by bobbing and weaving but to attack the guy ...combat attack is one that is going for a finish not a point and back off....if I can use my hand to make your head move and then trap your head witha palm strike and eye gouge you without allowing your head to regain itself and followed up from that .....or you pulled your head back but I kept coming , not backing up after the attempted jab /x...I can kick low to your leg if you slip backwards , a boxer wont do a kick so can rely on subtle head shifts to 'play' the boxing idea.

Due to the speed of the jab / stright line eye mind lag response we dont respond by bobbong but by a strike that sweeps its own center as it responds witha strike of its own and follows up relentlessly, this is the confidence eWSL talks about . If you havent got the confidence to 'steam' the guy then bob and weave ; ) once you can gain entry thats your que to 'go in' and stay with what came , follow through as it tries to regain itself.

Our response in training allow an instinctive motion and attack to just this scenario of a leading jab.
I catch a lot of guys doing a deep stepping jab lead witha left as I step in and cut across their line striking with my own left underneath while doing a rear parry by me ear [ not bobbing] . My intial response hit them as they tried to hit me ...as they try to face me on the side I am attacking , while they try to reposition to counter....just an example not the rule.

Ju jitsu is effective for the very reason it is attacking to gain this entry to finish beyond striking , but with 'intent' to 'commit'...

how many times in a boxing round / fight are boxers pulled apart by the referee ? why ? because they are finished by rules of the game.


the system teaches that if you attack a guy for 9 out of 10 seconds ..he is defending for those 9...even if its a short strike from a miss due to bobbing head , the attack continues , you keep bobbing , I keep attacking, you move I follow , you hit going backwards , I hit going forwards...

just about raising the odds in our favour by attacking and defending in simulateous , tactical , freethinking ways, without rules or applications / magic bullets to stop everything ...

[sanjuro_ronin]

WSL wasnt saying its bad , he says its good ...'for boxing'...but that if boxers could use any other part of their hands they could strike from the arms positions ...trap head positions that had bobbed down and not allow recovery etc....or strike with 'chop' to the neck etc...
The VT system is geared for attack as the fight not to bob and weave , but to stop the attack by attack , not a sporting bob and weave , back off, come back with a jab/x , back off , came back witha jab/jab/bob weave , back off...

a boxers jab works because of what ? hand speed ..over and over jab jab . Vt doesnt bob because it isnt the concept to fight by bobbing and weaving but to attack the guy ...combat attack is one that is going for a finish not a point and back off....if I can use my hand to make your head move and then trap your head witha palm strike and eye gouge you without allowing your head to regain itself and followed up from that .....or you pulled your head back but I kept coming , not backing up after the attempted jab /x...I can kick low to your leg if you slip backwards , a boxer wont do a kick so can rely on subtle head shifts to 'play' the boxing idea.

I don't know, I think the bob n weave can work with WC, you can strike while bob n weaving and trap while coming up and attack.
It can flow rather nicely into WC of drilled.

[Mr Punch]

Just a note on something I personally have a problem with:

I don't think that I could hit from an extended position. I honestly think that the "chaining" of techniques would be forefront in my mind and that the extended hand (after missing) would be on its way back while the other hand is on its way out.

Maybe just me...but I don't think I'd like to ever leave my arm extended to follow up with after my opponent evaded. I understand what is being said in the vid...and maybe it's just high-level stuff...or personal preference.

Whadda ya think?

Best,
Kenton SefcikI think you need more practice at same hand follow-ups and LSJC! Not being nasty or anything: it is hard, but of course, it's something you need to practice to make natural.

We used to do a sequence on the wall bag: a biu, punch, fook, lateral elbow. It was all light, and concentrating on flowing the one smoothly into the next with as little drawback as possible. It might help. You can't get any power if there is no pullback, unless of course you are altering your stance. You should always do this exercise concentrating on stance, especially the subtle shifts and especially of the hips. The joy of doing this kind of thing on the wallbag is you should be able to instantly get feedback and understand the weak links in your chain of muscle reaction.

Then you can progress to a heavy bag and god forbid, people! :eek: :D


WSL wasnt saying its bad , he says its good ...'for boxing'...but that if boxers could use any other part of their hands they could strike from the arms positions ...trap head positions that had bobbed down and not allow recovery etc....or strike with 'chop' to the neck etc...
The VT system is geared for attack as the fight not to bob and weave , but to stop the attack by attack , not a sporting bob and weave , back off, come back with a jab/x , back off , came back witha jab/jab/bob weave , back off...Thanks, I know that's what he was saying, but you haven't answered the points I made about that in my post. Not any judgment, just saying.

Don't get me wrong: it wasn't a major criticism. In general, although my experience in WSL's line is relatively little (just with one, recently two, of my training partners) I like it more than most lines. But still, I'm sure David will concur that WSL always thought dogma was dangerous, and I've heard this boxers' bobbing line repeated by inexperienced (with boxers) chunners in a dangerously dogmatic way too many times.

EDIT: Hot d@mn, Keith, you just wrongfooted me and added three times the previous post! No time to answer just now, but I'll get back here... btw, I tend to agree with Sanjuro that bobbing can fit nicely into wing chun, though when I practice wing chun I try to just practice wing chun and leave it out!

[k gledhill]

what are your points ?

[k gledhill]

I don't know, I think the bob n weave can work with WC, you can strike while bob n weaving and trap while coming up and attack.
It can flow rather nicely into WC of drilled.

you can do anything you want :D be like water my friend [ to be said with intensity];)

You can also learn to shift /cut angles better ; )

[sanjuro_ronin]

you can do anything you want :D be like water my friend [ to be said with intensity];)

You can also learn to shift /cut angles better ; )

Did you just bring JKD into the mix ? :eek:

They bob n weave you know....;)

[couch]

We used to do a sequence on the wall bag: a biu, punch, fook, lateral elbow. It was all light, and concentrating on flowing the one smoothly into the next with as little drawback as possible. It might help. You can't get any power if there is no pullback, unless of course you are altering your stance. You should always do this exercise concentrating on stance, especially the subtle shifts and especially of the hips. The joy of doing this kind of thing on the wallbag is you should be able to instantly get feedback and understand the weak links in your chain of muscle reaction.

Then you can progress to a heavy bag and god forbid, people! :eek: :D


Heavy bag? That's not traditional!!!

Thanks for the heads up on the training regime. Looks cool and I'm going to incorporate it. I understand why it is necessary to relax after each motion comes out (for the ability to flow as you have stated) and I now I do this in a "controlled" training environment. Mostly when it is centre to centre or I'm flanking the guy. But I guess in the situation from the video, I personally would feel more comfortable bringing that hand back to protect my head and flank (depending on the direction the opponent moved - inside vs. outside). Just a feeling I get deep down in the depths of my inexperience. LOL!

TTYS,
Kenton Sefcik

[k gledhill]

:D I try not to classify beating a guy up for attacking me by " I did it in this method ":D

Its like saying I prefered the no bob 'n' weave way, to the bob duck n roll strike 234 way , when i had a fight with a guy this weekend ...during the fight I considered the no bob at all but can kick sideways method with sporadic choke holds :rolleyes: followed by humiliating urination , but then changed my mind to the throw in garbage skip after ripping foreskin in 1/2 humiliation method ..on said victim er I mean combatant ;)

Like WSL said , dont be a slave to the system, its about getting a job done , not a show.

[David Peterson]

First and foremost, you are right....Wong Shun Leung did NOT believe in dogma and always taught his students to test everything to discover what what right for them. As noted in at least one post, he WAS originally a very good boxer and had the utmost respect for the art of boxing, having a great deal of knowledge about boxing history, technique and those in the sport. Having said that, he always maintained that boxing was a "game" (as he repeats in the nominated clip) restricted in its effectiveness/potential by its own rules. That said, he was of the opinion that if one was to adequately train and develop the concepts of 'Lat Sau Jik Chung' (the so-called "constant forward springy energy" which Sifu considered the essential difference between good Wing Chun and excellent Wing Chun) and 'Cheung Kiu Faat Lik' (the skill of delivering power from extended positions - basically, to be able to re-use the same limb for multiple strikes, rather that the more natural "one-two" method), then one could effectively combat an opponent who relies on ducking and weaving because your ability to attack would be continuous and overwhelming compared to your adversary. This approach may not work for everyone, and it won't work at all without the proper foundation and training (lots of people "talk the talk" about Wing Chun concepts but are unable to actually "walk the walk" when it comes to applying them), but it is this method that denotes a specific difference between the WSL Method and other lineages of the Wing Chun tree. I don't for a moment say that the other ideas and opinions expressed in this thread aren't equally applicable or possible, simply that this was Sifu's way, based on his thinking and training, and he made it work, as do many in the WSL Family. No disrespect to anyone else's methods or ideas, just an attempt to clarify the concept for all interested.
DMP

PS: Mr Punch, where is it that we may be meeting this year? I look forward to having the opportunity to swap ideas and experiences :)

[YungChun]

How much bobbing do we see in MMA as compared to boxing? Why?

Much more subtle when most any weapon/tactic goes no?

Subtle slipping IMO fits in with the system major bobbing doesn't... But--whatever works for ya... :)

[Liddel]

Maybe just me...but I don't think I'd like to ever leave my arm extended to follow up with after my opponent evaded. I understand what is being said in the vid...and maybe it's just high-level stuff...or personal preference.
Whadda ya think?
Best,
Kenton Sefcik

The way i see it (and use it)...

Its one manifestation of the maxum.. The Shortest distance between two points is a stright line.

If you launch a punch and its evaded, using the horse and force from the elbow to land another attack is ofen the quickest responce. (But not necessarily the best persay.)

Its not that the arm is fully extended, cause after the punch snaps you create an angle at the elbow again but the arm for the most part is still 'extended' (its not bought back to the guard / Bi Jong.)

I tend to use it when my partner bobs below and to the sides of my action using hammer fists, elbows or a Jum attack to a bridge (turning to Lop).

Of course it all depends on what your opponent gives you but you get the picture...:)

DREW

[Liddel]

How much bobbing do we see in MMA as compared to boxing? Why?

Much more subtle when most any weapon/tactic goes no?

Subtle slipping IMO fits in with the system major bobbing doesn't... But--whatever works for ya... :)

I see slipping all the time in UFC. Your right its subtle... but exaggerated bobbing is more often seen when watching Rashad Evens or Anderson Silva IMO.
Evens more than Silva.

I think its just personal pref i guess....:rolleyes:

DREW

[YungChun]

I see slipping all the time in UFC. Your right its subtle... but exaggerated bobbing is more often seen when watching Rashad Evens or Anderson Silva IMO.
Evens more than Silva.

I think its just personal pref i guess....:rolleyes:

DREW
Well I see some boxers using what I would call extreme bobbing, where they'll bend over and put their head virtually under the opponent's waist--I don't see that much in NHB, where there are many more options to attack with..

[sanjuro_ronin]

A slip is basically a head movement where as a Bob n Weave is a whole body movement and the knees should get bent almost a crouch in some cases, it should NOT be a "bend over at the waist" thing which leave you open for uppercuts ( boxing) and knees ( MT).
You would slip a jab, but you would bob n weave a cross or hook, though you can slip those to of course, since the bob n weave requires more body movement and thus, more time, it is typicaly employed off a "commited" strike, not a jab.
There are a few clips on youtube, even a MT clip of the bob n weave in MT.

[NgGung]

[QUOTE=David Peterson;836555]First and foremost, you are right....Wong Shun Leung did NOT believe in dogma and always taught his students to test everything to discover what what right for them. As noted in at least one post, he WAS originally a very good boxer and had the utmost respect for the art of boxing, having a great deal of knowledge about boxing history, technique and those in the sport. Having said that, he always maintained that boxing was a "game" (as he repeats in the nominated clip) restricted in its effectiveness/potential by its own rules. That said, he was of the opinion that if one was to adequately train and develop the concepts of 'Lat Sau Jik Chung' (the so-called "constant forward springy energy" which Sifu considered the essential difference between good Wing Chun and excellent Wing Chun) and 'Cheung Kiu Faat Lik' (the skill of delivering power from extended positions - basically, to be able to re-use the same limb for multiple strikes, rather that the more natural "one-two" method), then one could effectively combat an opponent who relies on ducking and weaving because your ability to attack would be continuous and overwhelming compared to your adversary. This approach may not work for everyone, and it won't work at all without the proper foundation and training (lots of people "talk the talk" about Wing Chun concepts but are unable to actually "walk the walk" when it comes to applying them), but it is this method that denotes a specific difference between the WSL Method and other lineages of the Wing Chun tree.
DMP

I love wc and have respect for master wong but I am confused. Wing Chun practiced safe in the schools yes? But we can know to use dirty on the street! Does everyone thinks Boxers can not do same thing?:)

You say difference in Master Wong Wing CHun is " walk the walk" I do not understand, Can you explain more please? Do you say you use this method discribed by Master Wong yourself on trained Boxers youself? Or you see master wong use this with your own eye? I understand Biu Tze concept but if I miss and try to strike opponent from where my hand is not to much power if I do not hit him lucky in the neck. Boxer move and train to hit when he drop down or use coming up to hit hard too! Not easy to hit him solid on centerline! I not want to try this on bigger boxer like Kimbo in street!
http://www.flicklife.com/8461020e2ba448e85995/Kimbo_vs_Chico_Fight.html

[Ernie]

If you look at what WSL is saying and doing as a '' Technique ''' then you missing the point ,,, it's an idea /concept ,,,, striking with nearest weapon , using a position you have already gained ,,,,, not to different then doubling up on the Jab or flicking a light jab then exploding in with footwork with same hand power shot ,,, the mechanics will vary from each situation and the tools will vary might be a kick a knee and elbow a chair a bat what ever ...

now when you use the nearest weapon it obviously is not going to be a huge power shot just a set up ,,, gaining a moment for something better
Vs retracting your hand and inviting something to follow it back and eat the space you just opened ,,,,

Again it's an idea ,, mileage will vary based on the person and situation

as for the Kimbo comment what next ,,,superman ,, the incredible hulk ,, we can play that game of what if's forever

better to be more concerned with what YOU can '' actually do'' then play imaginary games with what other people are doing :rolleyes:

[NgGung]

If you look at what WSL is saying and doing as a '' Technique ''' then you missing the point ,,, it's an idea /concept ,,,, striking with nearest weapon , using a position you have already gained ,,,,, not to different then doubling up on the Jab or flicking a light jab then exploding in with footwork with same hand power shot ,,, the mechanics will vary from each situation and the tools will vary might be a kick a knee and elbow a chair a bat what ever ...

now when you use the nearest weapon it obviously is not going to be a huge power shot just a set up ,,, gaining a moment for something better
Vs retracting your hand and inviting something to follow it back and eat the space you just opened ,,,,

Again it's an idea ,, mileage will vary based on the person and situation

as for the Kimbo comment what next ,,,superman ,, the incredible hulk ,, we can play that game of what if's forever

better to be more concerned with what YOU can '' actually do'' then play imaginary games with what other people are doing :rolleyes:

Yes, I understand it is concept. Maybe we both miss point? Do this to experience boxer and see what he do to your long bridge double jab! ;) Kimbo has not to do with Superman. He start in streets like CHico and many others he fights. Point is many people who box are not at disadvantage in street because it is sport in ring like is implied! Many test they skills...so to say WC by wong shun leung WC is Walk the walk, then I say how so more then everyone elsedoing wing chun? You bareknuckle test what master wong says in street? Or you take his word at concept and then you are just talk the talk like everyone else?If so, then you do the same;)

[Ernie]

you should research who you are speaking with before you run your mouth about '' the street'' and boxing ,,,,,, ;),,,, good luck with what ever it is you think you are doing :cool:

[sihing]

Yes, I understand it is concept. Maybe we both miss point? Do this to experience boxer and see what he do to your long bridge double jab! ;) Kimbo has not to do with Superman. He start in streets like CHico and many others he fights. Point is many people who box are not at disadvantage in street because it is sport in ring like is implied! Many test they skills...so to say WC by wong shun leung WC is Walk the walk, then I say how so more then everyone elsedoing wing chun? You bareknuckle test what master wong says in street? Or you take his word at concept and then you are just talk the talk like everyone else?If so, then you do the same;)


Buddy, I don't think you realize who you’re trying to put into a pigeon hole. I used to argue with Ernie like you are now, but the man kept sending me olive branches and information, until I finally took the step to meet up with him personally. Since then things have not been the same for me concerning how I think about Martial Arts and realistic training in Wing Chun. The man has been right where you have asked him to be, in front of top boxers for your information, as well as other top level fighters from other disciplines (Muay Thai, Filipino MA, Savate, JKD, BJJ, etc...), so please don't ask him if he has tested himself, because he will probably ignore your simple minded request. I'm here to tell you he has. As for myself, I've been a Wing Chun nut for some 20yrs now, but my skills are no where near Ernie's level, in the realm of understanding of the system or ability to demonstrate it physically against whatever you want to throw at him. I am not trying to imply that he is invincible or perfect, or that he is of some sort of superman, as he isn't, but he has a love/understanding and way with Wing Chun that rivals most teachers/practitioners/Sifu/Grandmasters out there, I know as I have experienced this passion with him personally, have you?

Now, concerning the "concept" that Sigung Wong is talking about, I think it is a sound one. Like any concept/principle/technique that is within Wing Chun, none of it means anything if you can't pull it off in a realistic situation, and none of it is guaranteed to work every time 100%, no Martial Art can guarantee that, and no Martial Artist/Fighter performs at 100% perfection ever. There are no guarantees in a fight, no matter who you are, whether you are Kimbo, Mike Tyson, or Joe Average like the rest of us. You do what you can with what you have. Wing Chun only gives you a slight advantage and at the very least a set of tools that you can use to defend yourself, not fight. Like Ernie previous mentioned in his well put together post, once you have gained a position you should use the weapons that are the nearest to the target, at the very least to distract or set up the next power shot. Do you think it was would be better to retreat and try to setup the position again? I'd rather take my chances (and that's what fighting is all about, taking chances), and fight from the position I fought to gain, and that is closer in, limiting what the other guy can do since most need distance to generate power in their shots and do not function well close in. Again, I don't think Sigung Wong was taking about a guaranteed strategy or concept, but rather something one can use when in such a situation. Sometimes it may workout for you sometimes not, that is why Wing Chun also has the built in ability to adapt and change quickly, and to not rely on one shot, to do the job, if it takes more, then more can be delivered.

James

[NgGung]

Run my Mouth?:) Because I don't agree with you answer? Yes, many people know streets fight underground just like Kimbo. Kimbo not superman he climb up from streets. No weight class in streets fighter maybe bigger is my point. I know what I try to do when I box or do MMA. Throw punch and it glance off my cheek or shoulder as I move and try to long bridge strike from where you hand is, I hit ribs or move into clinch under arm is all I say. Even concept must be test to see where it can go wrong. Rules are for ring street is for street. I do this and know what I try to do. I know who you are ernie. Good luck to you to!;) but I ask Mr. Petrson what he means only WSL system Walk the Walk and why this is.

[NgGung]

Buddy, I don't think you realize who you’re trying to put into a pigeon hole. I used to argue with Ernie like you are now, but the man kept sending me olive branches and information, until I finally took the step to meet up with him personally. Since then things have not been the same for me concerning how I think about Martial Arts and realistic training in Wing Chun. The man has been right where you have asked him to be, in front of top boxers for your information, as well as other top level fighters from other disciplines (Muay Thai, Filipino MA, Savate, JKD, BJJ, etc...), so please don't ask him if he has tested himself, because he will probably ignore your simple minded request. I'm here to tell you he has. As for myself, I've been a Wing Chun nut for some 20yrs now, but my skills are no where near Ernie's level, in the realm of understanding of the system or ability to demonstrate it physically against whatever you want to throw at him. I am not trying to imply that he is invincible or perfect, or that he is of some sort of superman, as he isn't, but he has a love/understanding and way with Wing Chun that rivals most teachers/practitioners/Sifu/Grandmasters out there, I know as I have experienced this passion with him personally, have you?

Now, concerning the "concept" that Sigung Wong is talking about, I think it is a sound one. Like any concept/principle/technique that is within Wing Chun, none of it means anything if you can't pull it off in a realistic situation, and none of it is guaranteed to work every time 100%, no Martial Art can guarantee that, and no Martial Artist/Fighter performs at 100% perfection ever. There are no guarantees in a fight, no matter who you are, whether you are Kimbo, Mike Tyson, or Joe Average like the rest of us. You do what you can with what you have. Wing Chun only gives you a slight advantage and at the very least a set of tools that you can use to defend yourself, not fight. Like Ernie previous mentioned in his well put together post, once you have gained a position you should use the weapons that are the nearest to the target, at the very least to distract or set up the next power shot. Do you think it was would be better to retreat and try to setup the position again? I'd rather take my chances (and that's what fighting is all about, taking chances), and fight from the position I fought to gain, and that is closer in, limiting what the other guy can do since most need distance to generate power in their shots and do not function well close in. Again, I don't think Sigung Wong was taking about a guaranteed strategy or concept, but rather something one can use when in such a situation. Sometimes it may workout for you sometimes not, that is why Wing Chun also has the built in ability to adapt and change quickly, and to not rely on one shot, to do the job, if it takes more, then more can be delivered.

James

I am not Pidgeon Hole anyone. I understand you are proud of teacher, this is good. He test in streets Good. Best way to do and he is not only one to do this so please I respect this but your words for him are not needed. I must slow down writing as my enlish is not great when I try to write fast. I know what you are saying. Yes it may not always work but it may leave you in a very bad way if you are wrong. My question was to Mr. Peterson, He said difference in WSL style was Everyone else talk the talk but we walk the walk..everyone has concept they do in school and work fine....so Once again I ask HIM not ernie did you test this in street and know it works for sure or are you doing same thing? Wc is say to give advantage to small, I am good size, almost like kimbo. What I say is get attack on street by bigger guy , Bounce in bar like kimbo, you try this? You See?;) Dont want to answer question, No problem. Good luck to you to buddy;)

[sihing]

I am not Pidgeon Hole anyone.
You did, you may not realize it, but IMO you did:)

I understand you are proud of teacher, this is good. He test in streets Good. Best way to do and he is not only one to do this so please I respect this but your words for him are not needed.
I felt the need to post what I did, so I guess it was needed eh? I'm glad you understand, and I understand that there are a ton of people with similar skills as my Bro Ernie, I never said there weren't, that wasn't the point. This is not a pi$$ing contest to see who has the biggest dck now is it?


I must slow down writing as my enlish is not great when I try to write fast. I know what you are saying.
Your doing fine, I seem to understand what you are getting accross.

Yes it may not always work but it may leave you in a very bad way if you are wrong.
Lol, every mistake you make in a fight leaves you in a bad position, are you saying that someone training in a close quarters art like Wing Chun, should not fight where they are training to fight? This is where we shine bro, so if you miss why not stay there and chance it out, since that is the place that you function the best. I'd rather not trade with a guy when I know that my skills are better used in closer;)

My question was to Mr. Peterson, He said difference in WSL style was Everyone else talk the talk but we walk the walk..everyone has concept they do in school and work fine....so Once again I ask HIM not ernie did you test this in street and know it works for sure or are you doing same thing?
Bro, we all have to go thru our own process to prove if the things we are training in work for us or not. IMO, the WSL method is a very effective system of training for self defence/combat in the street, but that is just me, each of us has to make up our own minds. I've never met Sifu Peterson, but I have only heard great things about the man, and that he is a great teacher of the WSL method, and I hope to someday soon attend one of his seminars to learn more about this method of Wing Chun. Whether or not he can personally fight with it is not much of a concern for me, I only care that he can teach it. You also have to understand that when your career in Martial Arts is over decades and not just years, that you can't always be in fighting shape or ultra effectiveness. Life is not about fighting, but about experiencing things and sharing it with those you love and care for. I train in Wing Chun more so for the fact that I love it, than for what it can do for me in a fighting/self defence situation.

Wc is say to give advantage to small, I am good size, almost like kimbo. What I say is get attack on street by bigger guy , Bounce in bar like kimbo, you try this? You See?;) Dont want to answer question, No problem. Good luck to you to buddy;)
Good luck to you also. All I have to say is that I like my nose right where it is, lol, and I have no need to bounce in some bar to realize that I have weaknesses and that I am vulnerable in a fight, lol. I'm no superman or super fighter or any fighter for that matter, I just like Wing Chun and especially the WSL method. I thought we were talking about the concept Sigung Wong was demonstrating/discussing in the clip? Now you've made it personal, having me to go out on the street to prove something? No thanks bro, if that is your deal then fine, go for it, I'd rather avoid trouble and stay out of jail, thanks:eek: I will say that I worked security for over 6 yrs, in hotels, hospitals, outside of bars, and other place, and found out that my greatest gift was my ability to stay cool under fire and use my wits, instead of my fists. If need be I can put up a fight and do what I have to do to defend myself and my family/friends, that is how I look at it. This is not about a ego trip or about proving manhood, more about real people training realistically in something they enjoy doing:)



James........

[NgGung]

James,

Pidgeon Hole is not my purpose. All I do is ask Mr. Peterson question. Many seem to think that because Boxing has rules it is not very good in street compare to WC. This to me is bad guess Because Boxer taught not to hit back fist in ring this does not mean he can not do on street all is up to person and how they train. Mr. Peterson show clip of WSL showing this method and mention WSL wc walk the walk about concept while others talk the Talk. So I ask how so? Is he say he test this in street himself? See master Wong do in fight? IS he say all concepts he test and this is why WSL walk the walk and ohters do not? I am learn to box in army in Rusia before I come here and even then coach show us how to get sneak in elbows when throw hook or to cut with lases on gloves and other things. I respect WSL but one can not guess about a boxer fighting same ways in street as in ring. I show footage of Kimbo only to show there are many who practice western boxing outside of ring and someone bob is hard to hit solid, see?:) Ernie then answer my question to Mr. Peterson as to say I am silly with Superman and hulk. So I repeat what I ask mr. Peterson is this something you test in the street and that is why he teach at seminar? Wc is good for smaller person we agree but you come against street guy try to take you money and he stands like boxer he may be street boxer and not following rules. This was not to insult ernie and say he don't know street, this was repeat question to Mr. Peterson about this concept and how wsl wc walk the walk with it and others do not. Ernie then write back to say I run my mouth as if I do not know street or what I am doing but only he does? So you see This is misunderstanding I cause I guess but I make no threat to him as he does to me. Just try to get answer from Mr. Peterson is walk the walk means this conept tested.
Then you start to write also and tell me I am simple mind with Ernie but I start all this when I ask Mr. Peterson what he means? Yes, maybe the chechens hit my head to much I am simple and do not know the real world.;) This ok many people like to insult in writing. At least you answer my question. You have good look on things You do system because you like it and think it is most effective! Good! Other people do there system because they do to yes? What is different to make wong System walk the walk and everyone else talk the talk I still do not know and now sorry for even asking. Sorry everyone! I ask no more!:D

[Mr Punch]

First and foremost, you are right....Wong Shun Leung did NOT believe in dogma and always taught his students to test everything to discover what what right for them. As noted in at least one post, he WAS originally a very good boxer and had the utmost respect for the art of boxing, having a great deal of knowledge about boxing history, technique and those in the sport. Yeah, I said that, though admittedly most of what I know about him is from your book!


Having said that, he always maintained that boxing was a "game" (as he repeats in the nominated clip) restricted in its effectiveness/potential by its own rules. Of course it is. As is NHB/MMA but that doesn't mean we can't learn from them, and I'm sure WSL would agree with that too.

Please note, I'm not saying that this means we have to incorporate bobbing into WC to make it 'better' or 'complete'.


That said, he was of the opinion that if one was to adequately train and develop the concepts of 'Lat Sau Jik Chung' (the so-called "constant forward springy energy" which Sifu considered the essential difference between good Wing Chun and excellent Wing Chun) and 'Cheung Kiu Faat Lik' (the skill of delivering power from extended positions - basically, to be able to re-use the same limb for multiple strikes, rather that the more natural "one-two" method), then one could effectively combat an opponent who relies on ducking and weaving because your ability to attack would be continuous and overwhelming compared to your adversary.Yep, I mentioned the LSJC in my answer to Couch. (I'm afraid my aptitude for Chinese even in a WC setting is **** poor since I've been learning Japanese and it was probably never up to much! Add to that my sifu was English and didn't speak a lick: he called LSJC 'that constant forward springy energy' or 'forward energy' or the like. Same for 'extended arm power'...! I never knew it was called what you just said.)
This approach may not work for everyone, and it won't work at all without the proper foundation and training (lots of people "talk the talk" about Wing Chun concepts but are unable to actually "walk the walk" when it comes to applying them), but it is this method that denotes a specific difference between the WSL Method and other lineages of the Wing Chun tree.Regardless of the comment about lineage (I personally am a total WC mongrel and don't care - that's the way it has had to bee through moving around - I care for effectiveness) I seem to have been able to hold my own in chi sao (not in a competitive manner generally though of course it can sometimes go that way - just in terms of keeping my structure, choosing my timing, keeping up pressure, keeping from getting tied up, and choosing and creating openings) and moderate sparring against people from WSL's line, CST's line, LT's line, Yip Chun/Ching's lines blah blah blah. And unlike most on the board I've been in full contact sparring (sometimes barely distinguishable from competition: except that in competition there's always someone to pull your opponent off you - in the MMA gym sometimes the coach is busy :eek: :D ) against relatively good boxers, Thai boxers, MMAers, using these forward energy and extended strike concepts (no, Ernie, not techs, I know!) to relatively good effect...

So that's where I'm coming from. I probably can't 'walk the walk' (not sure, like NgGung, what that's supposed to mean anyway...!) but then I don't 'talk any talk' either!

Which is why I say that while I'm applying the basic concepts (and although I try to avoid it, esp when practising just WC) I don't really mind if I instinctively bob and come up with a power shot, or move my head slightly for a pak da (slip a jab). Consequently, knowing that this works against a lot of people I can't really agree fully with WSL on his point that the group of movements 'ducking', 'weaving', 'bobbing' and 'slipping' are unworkable against a lot of chunners.

Sorry, this argument got a bit long and a bit tedious , but it's sometimes difficult over the net eh?... Anyway, the last paragraph brings me back to it ultimately being down to how good the chunner is and how good the boxer is: I know how easy it is to keep a boxer on his back foot with constant chun style attacking, and I also know how easy it is for a good defensive boxer to cover up, use his footwork and these bobbing movements to force me to try and pick off his arms to make an opening an then to take me apart with a couple of well-chosen power shots. There're always ifs and buts and what ifs on our side: If I were wearing shoes (though I don't really rate chun kicks for power kicks either)... and on their side: If they could use elbows... (sure elbows are good in chun, but when I was taught hooks in boxing it's a demn good elbow... I KNOW those guys can pack a mean elbow on a live resisting target)...

And it boils down to this for me: most chunners are high on theory and most boxers are higher up on HANDS on.


I don't for a moment say that the other ideas and opinions expressed in this thread aren't equally applicable or possible, simply that this was Sifu's way, based on his thinking and training, and he made it work, as do many in the WSL Family. No disrespect to anyone else's methods or ideas, just an attempt to clarify the concept for all interested.So what it boils down to for you is that you think your line is different, which is kind of what I've been hoping, since I've been really disappointed in the last few sifu I've met! :D

Of course, none of this is meant in a challenging way at all... I really am looking forward to more training with WSL's line: his talk makes more sense than most I've heard... hope his walk does too.


PS: Mr Punch, where is it that we may be meeting this year? I look forward to having the opportunity to swap ideas and experiences :)One of my long-term training partners has just started (beginning of last year I guess) with Blair... He seems to like it and he's certainly improved... And I'm hearing rumours about an appearance from you...

BTW FWIW (probably not much) Ernie, I think for once you may have misjudged someone - NgGung. He's only asking the same kind of questions you would recommend
any serious chunner ask: it's just that his English isn't so hot and now he's had to clarify his position he's coming across as challenging.

BTW2, Kevin - sorry I called you Keith!

Mat.

[Ernie]

PUNCH :D
would not be the first or last time i misjudge or make a mistake buddy ,, there is a Loooooooooong list ;)

but dude was all caught up on one sentence and couldn't look beyond the pointing finger ,,, missed al the heavenlllllllllly [ some body jut stop me ] !!!!

it's very simple if you 5hit works for you then keep on keeping on don't worry so much about the next man ,,,

life is to short to try and force your point of view on some silly forum :rolleyes:

[Matrix]

I don't think that I could hit from an extended position. I honestly think that the "chaining" of techniques would be forefront in my mind and that the extended hand (after missing) would be on its way back while the other hand is on its way out.Maybe you could think about it differently and maybe even try it. If you're locked into a fixed way of thinking you are reducing some great options that are available to you. The "extended position" as you're calling can also be the closest position and therefore quickest position. Note that after you extend the strike, you relax the arm to a more 'natural' position. From there you can continue without the need to pull back the front arm and replace with the rear hand. Of course that's a vaild option as well. I'm just saying that maybe you can explore other avenues. "Chaining" techniques can be effective, but have a fairly repeatable cycle if that's all you do. Think about mixing that up a little. Use 2 hands at once, the same hand twice or whatever else seems reasonable.


Maybe just me...but I don't think I'd like to ever leave my arm extended to follow up with after my opponent evaded. I understand what is being said in the vid...and maybe it's just high-level stuff...or personal preference. I hate to use the term "high level" because it has an air of superiority to it. Think of it as just another dimension to your game. In western boxing you often see jabs thrown in series from the same hand before the rear hand is thrown. This is quite similar.

By the way, this is just food for thought. It's your kung fu, do what think is best for you.

Cheers,
Bill

[Matrix]

I don't for a moment say that the other ideas and opinions expressed in this thread aren't equally applicable or possible, simply that this was Sifu's way, based on his thinking and training, and he made it work, as do many in the WSL Family. No disrespect to anyone else's methods or ideas, just an attempt to clarify the concept for all interested.Hi David,
Nice to see you posting on the forum. Let me take this opportunity to offer my thanks for producing your recent Siu Nim Tau and Cham Kiu DVD's. I purchased them both and was very impressed with the quality of the information as the level of detail that you've put into these videos. I really appreciate the fact that you're willing to share this information and the Wong Shun Leung way with those of us who are from other lineages.

Best Regards,
Bill

[Matrix]

but dude was all caught up on one sentence and couldn't look beyond the pointing finger ,,, missed al the heavenlllllllllly [ some body jut stop me ] !!!! Cue the dreamy music. :p

[Mr Punch]

The "extended position" as you're calling can also be the closest position and therefore quickest position. True. Don't forget the wing chun precept: nearest target, nearest weapon. The nearest weapon is frequently the one you've just hit with. One of the many reasons I think chain punching is overrated or plain old wrong.


Note that after you extend the strike, you relax the arm to a more 'natural' position. From there you can continue without the need to pull back the front arm and replace with the rear hand. ... In western boxing you often see jabs thrown in series from the same hand before the rear hand is thrown. This is quite similar.My MMA (boxing) coach said the jab should be an asking hand. Boxers will often hit with hook from the lead (jabbing) hand too with minimum drawing back... it's this kind of short-range wind up we need in chun too.


Let me take this opportunity to offer my thanks for producing your recent Siu Nim Tau and Cham Kiu DVD's.One of my training bros has recommended this too... hope you bring a couple if it comes off.


Cue the dreamy music. :p King: No, no... Not like that, knock that off! No son of mine...!

(sound of record needle scratching as it's dragged off) [/Monty Python quote]

LOL both of you... :D

[David Peterson]

Dear All,

My apologies for not responding sooner so as to clarify what was stated in my earlier post and prevent anyone from taking things as "put-downs" - I don't post often these days for a number of reasons, one being that life is very hectic, another being that it seems that when you sincerely try to share some info or experiences by answering questions or contributing to a thread, more often than not, someone tries to knock your bloody head off :confused: Main reason being that I personally get more out of real training/teaching than I do from typing on the Net :)

Anyway, let me thank Ernie, et al, for taking up my point earlier on, and thanks to Bill for the comments on the DVDs - glad you found them of use - and regards to Mr Punch whom I look forward to meeting in Japan :D

To Mr NgGung, once again I reiterate that my comments were not made to disrespect anyone, but as an attempt to respond to queries about the clip on YouTube (which I might add that I did NOT post - I do NOT have this particular seminar on VHS/DVD, but the points made by my late Sifu in that clip are things that he regularly spoke about when teaching WSLVT).

Okay, your main point of contention would seem to be my use of the term, "Talk the talk, walk the walk" so here, in a nutshell, is what I was trying to say: virtually everyone studying/practicing/teaching/commenting on Wing Chun/Ving Tsun/Wing Tsun, etc, constantly makes reference to concepts such as 'Lat Sau Jik Chung' ("constant springy force"), 'Cheung Kiu Faat Lik' ("generating power from an extended position"), 'Jie Lik' ("stealing power"), 'Lin Siu Dai Da' ("simultaneous attack & defence"), etc, etc, ad nauseum. Trouble is that very few of these people and/or lineages (apart from a few dedicated individuals who actually not only really understand these concepts, but actually train to develop them) ever actually can apply these attributes in the real world.

Like you, I too am NOT a Superman, ...or a Hulk, ...or a Kimbo (Ernie was only messing with you in order to make an obvious point ;) ) and personally, at almost 52 years of age, I really don't have any real desire to face Mr Tyson, Mr Kimbo or anyone else of that ilk either. I train and teach because I have a passion for what I was fortunate to learn from my teacher, and HE put it on the line on many occasions for the benefit of all of us who share this passion for the MAs. Based on his experiences, and that of my fellow WSLVT brothers around the world, on my own limited hands-on experience both in and out of the ring, that of my own students and others, I know that the concepts that he refers to CAN and DO work, given that the training has been down to achieve such skills. Please understand that I have nothing but the highest regard for Boxing and for those who practice it. Having said that, however, I think that you would have to agree that we (as Wing Chun devotees) have a definite advantage considering that we NEVER train or apply our skills with a set of "rules of engagement" in place, unlike the boxer who, by and large, is constantly working within the mental and physical restrictions placed on them by the rules of the sport. This is not to say that they are incapable of dealing with such strategies/concepts outside of the ring - clearly there are many who can and do fight with devastating effectiveness beyond the confines of the ring - but by and large, you are how you train and therefore it is fair to presume that the aggessive use of such concepts would be found difficult to deal with by many.

None of us are invincible (including my Sifu and definitely including me (and with respect, probably even your goodself, Sir!), and what happens "in the moment" is quite often totally out of our control to a very large extent. However, I stand by my opinion, based on travels and experiences all around the world, that outside of the WSLVT Family, few in Wing Chun are really actually able to make these ideas work, ...but they DO work and are attributes that ANYONE can develop and apply, given that they understand and train specifically for those ends. Much of it comes down to the basic structures and concepts found in the forms and drills of the system, and how one trains each desired attribute to achieve maximum skill and effect. Again, my Sifu was a gifted instructor who could totally break things down for his students so that they could develop such attributes. The man was a wealth of knowledge and could come up with a drill on the spot that would see a student improve substantially in the briefest of time. His approach was always based on practicality and reality, this being the reason why his take on the forms is, in many ways, radically different to that of others. Keep in mind, he DID put his skills on the line numerous times and his approach to Wing Chun evolved accordingly. This is why, late in his life, he coined the term 'Wing Chun Kuen Hok' (the "Science of Wing Chun Pugilism") to denote his system from other interpretations.

To sum up, I apologise if you saw my comments as insulting or disrepectful and hope that you now have a better idea of what I was trying to share. That is, after all, what this forum is all about, is it not? I was one of the lucky few who was privy to the legacy left by my teacher and I simply wish to spread some of that wisdom to others so that they too might benefit from it, be that as a way to enhance what they are already doing, to introduce a new way of thinking (to see beyond the pointing finger where many are trapped) or to confirm the concepts that they are already embracing. As my late Sifu said at every seminar, and now I do at mine, "I offer some of my experiences and ideas to you - if you find something there that you feel is valuable, take it and make it yours - if not, feel free to ignore it"
DMP

[forever young]

I think that you would have to agree that we (as Wing Chun devotees) have a definite advantage considering that we NEVER train or apply our skills with a set of "rules of engagement" in place, unlike the boxer who, by and large, is constantly working within the mental and physical restrictions placed on them by the rules of the sport.


DMP

Hi,i would first like to point out i am a (lowly maggot) student of the wsl method. I would like to ask you mr peterson if i may about the above statement if i may.
My question is do you not think as 'practitioners of xyz' we are doing exactly the same? i mean based even on this thread alone the use for example of bob/slip/weave is frowned upon, yet in doing so we are restricting ourselves to 'wing chun rules of engagement' (which is as it should be - when i train wc i train wc equally when i train bjj i train bjj - i save the experimenting for throwdowns/meetups/private sparring) which is realistically why MOST wing chun practitioners become good at fighting/defending against other wing chun guys playing within the same 'rules of engagement'
what are your thoughts on this (if you care to share them of course)
Thanks for your time

[Mr Punch]

David, thank you for your answer. I'm looking forward to you slapping me around like a rag doll (well... I dunno, you ever slap round a rag doll!? :D Backs slowly away...)


Hi,i would first like to point out i am a (lowly maggot) student of the wsl method. I would like to ask you mr peterson if i may about the above statement if i may.Two 'if I may's in one sentence!!! :eek: That's pretty lowlily maggoty! :p :D


My question is do you not think as 'practitioners of xyz' we are doing exactly the same? i mean based even on this thread alone the use for example of bob/slip/weave is frowned upon, yet in doing so we are restricting ourselves to 'wing chun rules of engagement' LOL, no-one has an answer for this question... I've been asking it quietly for years based on when my sifu modified his 'If it works, it's wing chun' adage into 'If it works, use it'! :D

[Matrix]

True. Don't forget the wing chun precept: nearest target, nearest weapon. The nearest weapon is frequently the one you've just hit with. One of the many reasons I think chain punching is overrated or plain old wrong. Agreed on both counts. Chain punches as I've seen them used in Youtube videos are not the way to go, IMO. Of course, I could be wrong.


My MMA (boxing) coach said the jab should be an asking hand. Boxers will often hit with hook from the lead (jabbing) hand too with minimum drawing back... it's this kind of short-range wind up we need in chun too.Sure. It may be 'asking' , "Would you like another?" ;). The short-range wind up is definitely in Wing Chun, and it's something that I'm working on myself. I'm getting better, but there's still lots of room for improvement. The idea that I try to keep in mind is that you don't need to 'wind up' at all. For one, it telegraphs your intent. 2nd, it takes energy and time unnecessarily. 3rd, you're actually hitting with your whole body, where your fist is really just the tip of the arrow so to speak.

Bill

[Mr Punch]

Yeah, I did think that perhaps wind-up wasn't the best expression, but I couldn't think of another.

[Matrix]

Not a problem. I knew what you meant, so it's all good.

Cheers,
Bill

[k gledhill]

to the lowly maggot ;) ...vt is only training against vt ..vt doesnt fight vt..so we arent really confined to any vt rules just concepts and tactics that have no referee incase of infractions :cool: like I use a knife/s because 4 friends showed up to help you try to hurt me :eek: :D
...in training one should adopt a role to allow for this training so vt can function beyond stalemate ..it also opens your eyes to being on the recieving end and options ...going in a circle back to you being the vt attacker ...etc... best of both worlds...I always look for ways to hit /attack my students from outside ..many guys ive fought/hit, just start fights with simple charging attempted or actual wrist grabs [ ime ] so I do too for my students , if being the 'brawler' for sparring [ roles ]. A few guys Ive hit have come at me head down bobbing to grab me but I hit them full force with a vertical palm on top of the head :eek: ...so bobbing is good for taking the 'legal' face away for boxing , but I still hit the head ;) and they stagger backwards holding their head etc for followups or hitting their mates rucking too...

Mr. Punch if you call me Keith again I will have to issue a DEATH MATCH ;)

[sihing]

Hi,i would first like to point out i am a (lowly maggot) student of the wsl method. I would like to ask you mr peterson if i may about the above statement if i may.
My question is do you not think as 'practitioners of xyz' we are doing exactly the same? i mean based even on this thread alone the use for example of bob/slip/weave is frowned upon, yet in doing so we are restricting ourselves to 'wing chun rules of engagement' (which is as it should be - when i train wc i train wc equally when i train bjj i train bjj - i save the experimenting for throwdowns/meetups/private sparring) which is realistically why MOST wing chun practitioners become good at fighting/defending against other wing chun guys playing within the same 'rules of engagement'
what are your thoughts on this (if you care to share them of course)
Thanks for your time

I think it is wise to learn how to not "label" everything and think inside a little box (style xyz says don't do this, or only do that, bla bla bla). To be brief, and to use Sigung Wong again as a example, I read in a story where Sigung Wong was in a fight, and the finishing blow was a knee to the head. When it was over, his fellow students chastised his use of that technique, saying that he did not use "Wing Chun" to defeat his adversery. Sigung Wong replied, "I used the closest weapon to the nearest target, that is Wing Chun".

In practice you train very specific, and very deliberately in a pure WC form. Why? So that you can learn what it is teaching you, absorb it physically, get rid of bad habits, learn new one's and to totally understand every aspect of the system. Outside you use it as a tool, in whatever way you want, as it is not "Wing Chu" doing the fighting, rather it is "You" doing the fighting.

David,

I too would like to thank you for the two DVD's you produced, they were very well done, and I've learned a ton from them. If I can make it happen, hopefully I will see you soon at one of the seminars that are planned in the near future:)

James

[forever young]

to the lowly maggot ;) ...vt is only training against vt ..vt doesnt fight vt..so we arent really confined to any vt rules just concepts and tactics that have no referee incase of infractions :cool: like I use a knife/s because 4 friends showed up to help you try to hurt me :eek: :D
...in training one should adopt a role to allow for this training so vt can function beyond stalemate ..it also opens your eyes to being on the recieving end and options ...going in a circle back to you being the vt attacker ...etc... best of both worlds...I always look for ways to hit /attack my students from outside ..many guys ive fought/hit, just start fights with simple charging attempted or actual wrist grabs [ ime ] so I do too for my students , if being the 'brawler' for sparring [ roles ]. A few guys Ive hit have come at me head down bobbing to grab me but I hit them full force with a vertical palm on top of the head :eek: ...so bobbing is good for taking the 'legal' face away for boxing , but I still hit the head ;) and they stagger backwards holding their head etc for followups or hitting their mates rucking too...

Mr. Punch if you call me Keith again I will have to issue a DEATH MATCH ;)
well i got to be honest im not too sure what it is you are saying but if you are saying what i think you are ie vt is only training against vt and a real altercation you arnt confined to any rules, if this is the case then this really dont answer the question and infact one is lead to ask why you think boxing is any different?

look i will say it like this. When you do chi sau you are agreeing whether explicitly or not to 'play' by certain 'rules' in order thast it remains chisau, yes/no ?

similarly when 'sparring' whatever the level of contact you are keeping it 'wing chun/ving tsun, yes/no?

so after reading


I think that you would have to agree that we (as Wing Chun devotees) have a definite advantage considering that we NEVER train or apply our skills with a set of "rules of engagement" in place, unlike the boxer who, by and large, is constantly working within the mental and physical restrictions placed on them by the rules of the sport.


DMPmy question is how is wing chun different than any other style in this regard ie: when boxers are boxing they box, when im doing wing chun i personally am not grappling im doing wing chun.
Now the general response seems to be 'but when fighting think outside the box/dont be confined/pidgeon holed' yet it seems that that is exactly what you do when (in this instance) talking of boxers

so while on the one hand it is being said how bob/weave are not workable options within the wing chun framework, people are saying things like

I think it is wise to learn how to not "label" everything and think inside a little box (style xyz says don't do this, or only do that, bla bla bla). To be brief, and to use Sigung Wong again as a example, I read in a story where Sigung Wong was in a fight, and the finishing blow was a knee to the head. When it was over, his fellow students chastised his use of that technique, saying that he did not use "Wing Chun" to defeat his adversery. Sigung Wong replied, "I used the closest weapon to the nearest target, that is Wing Chun". and seemingly not seeing the parallels? how then are these two 'concepts' related (stick to wc/do what is neccesary) and how does this relate to in this instance boxing/boxers doing exactly the same?
Many thanks

[forever young]

or to rephrase it like this ;)



I think that you would have to agree that we (as NHB devotees) have a definite advantage considering that we NEVER train or apply our skills with a set of "rules of engagement" in place, unlike the wing chun guy who, by and large, is constantly working within the mental and physical restrictions placed on them by the rules of the system.


DMP

re-quoted/edited my me :D

[forever young]

LOL, no-one has an answer for this question... I've been asking it quietly for years based on when my sifu modified his 'If it works, it's wing chun' adage into 'If it works, use it'!
:D
..........................................

[sihing]

well i got to be honest im not too sure what it is you are saying but if you are saying what i think you are ie vt is only training against vt and a real altercation you arnt confined to any rules, if this is the case then this really dont answer the question and infact one is lead to ask why you think boxing is any different?

look i will say it like this. When you do chi sau you are agreeing whether explicitly or not to 'play' by certain 'rules' in order thast it remains chisau, yes/no ?

similarly when 'sparring' whatever the level of contact you are keeping it 'wing chun/ving tsun, yes/no?

so after reading

my question is how is wing chun different than any other style in this regard ie: when boxers are boxing they box, when im doing wing chun i personally am not grappling im doing wing chun.
Now the general response seems to be 'but when fighting think outside the box/dont be confined/pidgeon holed' yet it seems that that is exactly what you do when (in this instance) talking of boxers

so while on the one hand it is being said how bob/weave are not workable options within the wing chun framework people are saying things like
and seemingly not seeing the parallels? how then are these two 'concepts' related (stick to wc/do what is neccesary) and how does this relate to in this instance boxing/boxers doing exactly the same?
Many thanks

I think the first thing to realize is that there is never a answer to what if questions or technique vs technique, style vs style, concept vs concept type inquiry's.

On the street, you don't know what the fighting background is of your opponent. If I try and be passive/defensive in a effort to find out, then I will be dead in a quick minute. The idea is to win/overcome/destroy whomever is in front of you, so what do you do, or what does WC have to say about this? Well from my limited understanding, it says to be proactive, attack, always move forward, and hit, hit, and hit some more with all you can muster out of the body you have, with whatever weapons you have available to you on your body or that you can grab or that you can use from nature (tree, cliffs, man made structures, etc..). I don't care if he is a boxer and can bob and weave, or that he is a wrestler that is going to take me down. If you start worrying about those things then you have alread lost. Just do your thing, and hope the training/understanding that you have done in the past was enough to get you out of this situation alive and relatively unharmed.

You see there is a difference in training, as compared to application. Training is what we are talking about mostly around here. So when I chi sau, I am being specific in nature and working strictly on my "Wing Chun" habits, and not about fighting application, since the drill is far from a fighting nature. So yes, in chi sau there is a set of guidelines and if your partner goes out of them, then you are no longer doing chi sau. This is what you see mostly when people try to compete in chi sau comps, they start out rolling, and then lose all idea of what they are doing with the sole intention of hitting, in any and all ways, most of which is not WC related. The ego kicks in and people feel the need to do what they have to do to save face. The drill is not meant for that purpose but to teach specific things, in a specific way. All of WC is like this, but in application it is me that is fighting, not the art, and I choose what to use from it (by force of habit or unconsiousness, or by experience and wisdom in the art, all of this depends on time in, skill and experience using it in real situations, lots of variables to consider here:eek:). So if I am out of position or taken by surprise and unable to raise my hands up, guess what, I may bob and weave, duck, etc, to avoid a blow, since the natural instinct is always to move the head. God help me that the Wing Chun gods don't shoot a bolt of lightening upon me when I do that, lol.

For some reason, people on forums are looking for absolute answers to questions that are related to an activity that is far from predictable. The fact of the matter is, no one is invincible, everyone is vulnerable, no Martial Art guarantee's 100% success in a fight, training hard and understanding what you are doing is very important, guidance from someone with experience and skill is important, and all we can do is increase our chances in a fight by practicing a Martial Art. Also the fact is that most of us train in things that we ENJOY doing as a activity, rather than purely for the fighting effectiveness it gives us. I love training in WC, that is why I do, not because I need to learn to be a effective fighter, since I haven't (like 99.9% of the rest of us on this forum) had a fight or chance for a fight in years.

"Avoidance is the best thing to do, and learning art of invisibility is the best thing to learn if you don't want anything to do with violent physical confrontations." WSL quote..



James

[k gledhill]

Quote:
Originally Posted by k gledhill View Post
to the lowly maggot ...vt is only training against vt ..vt doesnt fight vt..so we arent really confined to any vt rules just concepts and tactics that have no referee incase of infractions like I use a knife/s because 4 friends showed up to help you try to hurt me
...in training one should adopt a role to allow for this training so vt can function beyond stalemate ..it also opens your eyes to being on the recieving end and options ...going in a circle back to you being the vt attacker ...etc... best of both worlds...I always look for ways to hit /attack my students from outside ..many guys ive fought/hit, just start fights with simple charging attempted or actual wrist grabs [ ime ] so I do too for my students , if being the 'brawler' for sparring [ roles ]. A few guys Ive hit have come at me head down bobbing to grab me but I hit them full force with a vertical palm on top of the head ...so bobbing is good for taking the 'legal' face away for boxing , but I still hit the head and they stagger backwards holding their head etc for followups or hitting their mates rucking too...

Mr. Punch if you call me Keith again I will have to issue a DEATH MATCH
well i got to be honest im not too sure what it is you are saying but if you are saying what i think you are ie vt is only training against vt and a real altercation you arnt confined to any rules, if this is the case then this really dont answer the question and infact one is lead to ask why you think boxing is any different?

look i will say it like this. When you do chi sau you are agreeing whether explicitly or not to 'play' by certain 'rules' in order thast it remains chisau, yes/no ?

similarly when 'sparring' whatever the level of contact you are keeping it 'wing chun/ving tsun, yes/no?

MY REPLY:
I am developing myself and my partner through the fighting system of VT as James wrote.
I help my partner in chi-sao to develop a line of thought ....

[forever young]

I think the first thing to realize is that there is never a answer to what if questions or technique vs technique, style vs style, concept vs concept type inquiry's.

On the street, you don't know what the fighting background is of your opponent. If I try and be passive/defensive in a effort to find out, then I will be dead in a quick minute. The idea is to win/overcome/destroy whomever is in front of you, so what do you do, or what does WC have to say about this? Well from my limited understanding, it says to be proactive, attack, always move forward, and hit, hit, and hit some more with all you can muster out of the body you have, with whatever weapons you have available to you on your body or that you can grab or that you can use from nature (tree, cliffs, man made structures, etc..). I don't care if he is a boxer and can bob and weave, or that he is a wrestler that is going to take me down. If you start worrying about those things then you have alread lost. Just do your thing, and hope the training/understanding that you have done in the past was enough to get you out of this situation alive and relatively unharmed.

You see there is a difference in training, as compared to application. Training is what we are talking about mostly around here. So when I chi sau, I am being specific in nature and working strictly on my "Wing Chun" habits, and not about fighting application, since the drill is far from a fighting nature. So yes, in chi sau there is a set of guidelines and if your partner goes out of them, then you are no longer doing chi sau. This is what you see mostly when people try to compete in chi sau comps, they start out rolling, and then lose all idea of what they are doing with the sole intention of hitting, in any and all ways, most of which is not WC related. The ego kicks in and people feel the need to do what they have to do to save face. The drill is not meant for that purpose but to teach specific things, in a specific way. All of WC is like this, but in application it is me that is fighting, not the art, and I choose what to use from it (by force of habit or unconsiousness, or by experience and wisdom in the art, all of this depends on time in, skill and experience using it in real situations, lots of variables to consider here:eek:). So if I am out of position or taken by surprise and unable to raise my hands up, guess what, I may bob and weave, duck, etc, to avoid a blow, since the natural instinct is always to move the head. God help me that the Wing Chun gods don't shoot a bolt of lightening upon me when I do that, lol.

For some reason, people on forums are looking for absolute answers to questions that are related to an activity that is far from predictable. The fact of the matter is, no one is invincible, everyone is vulnerable, no Martial Art guarantee's 100% success in a fight, training hard and understanding what you are doing is very important, guidance from someone with experience and skill is important, and all we can do is increase our chances in a fight by practicing a Martial Art. Also the fact is that most of us train in things that we ENJOY doing as a activity, rather than purely for the fighting effectiveness it gives us. I love training in WC, that is why I do, not because I need to learn to be a effective fighter, since I haven't (like 99.9% of the rest of us on this forum) had a fight or chance for a fight in years.

"Avoidance is the best thing to do, and learning art of invisibility is the best thing to learn if you don't want anything to do with violent physical confrontations." WSL quote..



James
1st off i must say that in general i agree with what you have written but it doesnt answer the question i asked dmp with regard to this statement

I think that you would have to agree that we (as Wing Chun devotees) have a definite advantage considering that we NEVER train or apply our skills with a set of "rules of engagement" in place, unlike the boxer who, by and large, is constantly working within the mental and physical restrictions placed on them by the rules of the sport.


DMP
my question is

My question is do you not think as 'practitioners of xyz' we are doing exactly the same? i mean based even on this thread alone the use for example of bob/slip/weave is frowned upon, yet in doing so we are restricting ourselves to 'wing chun rules of engagement'
especially with regard to
we NEVER train or apply our skills with a set of "rules of engagement" . My contention is we are doing exactly what he (dmp) claims we never do so i was just wondering what mr peterson thought about this opposing view?

[forever young]

MY REPLY:
I am developing myself and my partner through the fighting system of VT as James wrote.
I help my partner in chi-sao to develop a line of thought ....
again while this is good and im glad for you and in accordance with what i regard the tool of chisau to be it dosnt answer the questions above
especially as the questions you quoted are all yes no questions ;)

[k gledhill]

I dont think you understand my 'thinking' or you would understand my answer ;)

you think chi-sao as a fight ?

[forever young]

I dont think you understand my 'thinking' or you would understand my answer ;)

you think chi-sao as a fight ?

errrr no! i think that the fact english dosnt seem to be your first language that might be why your post seems to ramble (in english anyway ;) )
im being honest here when i say
vt is only training against vt ..vt doesnt fight vt..so we arent really confined to any vt rules just concepts and tactics that have no referee incase of infractions like I use a knife/s because 4 friends showed up to help you try to hurt me
...in training one should adopt a role to allow for this training so vt can function beyond stalemate ..it also opens your eyes to being on the recieving end and options ...going in a circle back to you being the vt attacker ...etc... best of both worlds...I always look for ways to hit /attack my students from outside ..many guys ive fought/hit, just start fights with simple charging attempted or actual wrist grabs [ ime ] so I do too for my students , if being the 'brawler' for sparring [ roles ]. A few guys Ive hit have come at me head down bobbing to grab me but I hit them full force with a vertical palm on top of the head ...so bobbing is good for taking the 'legal' face away for boxing , but I still hit the head and they stagger backwards holding their head etc for followups or hitting their mates rucking too.. dosnt really make any sense in english (at least to me :)) and it really dont have ANY bearing on the question i asked (and by the way you still havent answered in simple yes no terms the questions you quoted from me ;) because if the answer is yes then my point is made if however it is no then just what are you pb boys doing ;)

just for clarity (whch seems to be a problem around here.......)
yet in doing so we are restricting ourselves to 'wing chun rules of engagement' this is my point !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If your answer is when training we restrict ourselves to develop x skill (perhaps horse stance) or y concept (perhaps LSJC) but when we fight we shouldnt restrict ourselves then i would ask why you think boxers or for that matter ANY other art would do the same?

im NOT asking for a lecture on t3h r34l wing chun nor wsl nor lsjc nor whether i think chisau is fighting (which i really dont know where you extracted that from ;) )
im asking some simple questions based on another persons (DMP'S) post not the square root of six million so if you dont have any answers then fair enough but say that rather than bluster with some 'you dont get it ' crap!

[k gledhill]

like I said ...you dont understand me :D

im responding in part to all posts , not just yours,... your ego is in your way ; )

[forever young]

like I said ...you dont understand me :D

im responding in part to all posts , not just yours,... your ego is in your way ; )

ego in the way???? personally i think instead of answering questions you are attacking me which while this is fine with me smacks of YOUR ego in the way for example it seems youy cant admit
1, have no answers to simple questions
2, are presenting an Ad hominem argument See Here for reference ;) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem)

you are right i dont understand you and your apparent inability to hold a logical discussion without attacking me????

i could for example have asked if you might be good enough to explain

vt is only training against vt ..vt doesnt fight vt..so we arent really confined to any vt rules just concepts and tactics that have no referee incase of infractions like I use a knife/s because 4 friends showed up to help you try to hurt me This and its relevance to anything???? eg Knife?? multiple attack??? referee????
i asked none of these things and i fail to see how it has a bearing on ANYTHING being discussed

...in training one should adopt a role to allow for this training so vt can function beyond stalemate ..it also opens your eyes to being on the recieving end and optionscrap and meaningless
...going in a circle back to you being the vt attacker ...etc... best of both worlds...going in circles??? you seem to be ;) and may i ask at what point do you see yourself being a vt defender :p
I always look for ways to hit /attack my students from outsideOutside??? outside what ?? a bar?? their house?? outside lines??? and should you really be attacking/hitting your students or is there perhaps a more intelligent way to teach/learn??
..many guys ive fought/hit, just start fights with simple charging attempted or actual wrist grabs [ ime ]Well while only YOU can comment on your experiences in mine its the opposite whereby people start swinging for the head WHILE charging forwards, no wrist grabs ;) oh and while were at it exactly how many times has this happened or are the 'many guys' merely training partners ;)?
so I do too for my students , if being the 'brawler' for sparring [ roles ].Holy hell!!!!! so what you are saying is you LARP??????? oh god then imho you are beyond saving :o:p(oh and who 'plays' boxer/grappler/thai fighter/brawler and what is their qualifications/experience within their 'other art'
A few guys Ive hit have come at me head down bobbing to grab me but I hit them full force with a vertical palm on top of the head ... so what??? the guys i play with would simply ignore a "Vertical Palm on the top of the Head" because they would have enough forward momentum to keep coming, or are you implying your palms would 'break cocconuts'????;)
so bobbing is good for taking the 'legal' face away for boxing , but I still hit the head and they stagger backwards holding their head etc for followups or hitting their mates rucking too.. Get better quality sparring partners as it sounds like you are just beating up on students who are not at your level. Or can you do any of this against someone you consider senior/better than you? because i dont believe you can and imo as you made the claim the onus is on you to prove what you say (youtube anyone -- nah diddnt think so, let me guess....no camera/are not computer literate enough/cant be bothered/ have nothing to prove ;))

[chisauking]

wing chun fly sez: My question is do you not think as 'practitioners of xyz' we are doing exactly the same? i mean based even on this thread alone the use for example of bob/slip/weave is frowned upon, yet in doing so we are restricting ourselves to 'wing chun rules of engagement' (which is as it should be - when i train wc i train wc equally when i train bjj i train bjj - i save the experimenting for throwdowns/meetups/private sparring) which is realistically why MOST wing chun practitioners become good at fighting/defending against other wing chun guys playing within the same 'rules of engagement'

The main distinction between 'games' like boxing and wing chun is the 'mindset' of the training & goal. Games have self-imposed rules, whereas the only rules within wing chun & its training method is the limitation of its practitioners. The good wing chun practitioners will train with NO rules in mind, whilst the boxer will have subconsciously embedded rules\limits in their mind. The way you 'think' and train will ultimately effect the development of your fighting skills & mindset.

There are no kicking, eye poking, choking, etc., etc. in boxing, because it's against the rules. There are no rules against using bobbing, weaving, slip in wing chun. Sifu WSL didn't use those tactics not because it's against the rules in the rule book, but becuase he personally didn't feel it was efficient....based on his comprehension of the system, and his life fighting experiences. There's a clear distinction.

Just as if you think doing a triple jump & putting on a pair of boxing gloves before punching your opponent is efficient & direct, whose to say your wrong? It certainly isn't written in the wing chun 'rulebook'.

But then, if sifu WSL didn't do a triple jump & put on a pair of boxing gloves before punching his opponent, people would accuse him of 'restricting to playing within the same rules of engagement'.

[guy b.]

bloody hell this is gay. Its like a train spotters convention.

[forever young]

The main distinction between 'games' like boxing and wing chun is the 'mindset' of the training & goal. Games have self-imposed rules, whereas the only rules within wing chun & its training method is the limitation of its practitioners. The good wing chun practitioners will train with NO rules in mind, whilst the boxer will have subconsciously embedded rules\limits in their mind. The way you 'think' and train will ultimately effect the development of your fighting skills & mindset.
thanks for taking time to try and answer the q's :)
if i may ask you a few questions based on your post.
You mention mindset, ok so in chisau the mindset is what exactly? to kill/maim? it should be in my opinion to develop skill and infact to try and develop 'skill' should be the mindset throughout your wing chun practices yes/no ?? i would ask you to read This (http://www.ninobernardo.com/divorcing_violence_article.html) then perhaps tell me whether you agree/disagree
Next you mention that boxers will somehow be 'preprogrammed' to follow certain rules but would you agree that a boxers main aim is to damage/ko their opponent while taking as little damage as possible themselves? agree/disagree?
and that the assumption that a boxer (or any other person/art) will be rendered bound to imaginary rules in a real altercation is a dangerous assumption on your part and how may i ask did you come up with this assumption?
and if my previous question re:wing chun ruleset is true then are we not at risk of the same thing (perhaps people trying to chisau while fighting or adheering to a horse stance when it is clearly wrong? as examples)


There are no kicking, eye poking, choking, etc., etc. in boxing, because it's against the rules. There are no rules against using bobbing, weaving, slip in wing chun. well again this certainly forms part of my argument that if this isnt against the 'rules' of wing chun then why would people tell you not to do it and infact would it not be part of the system? for example to me the system has a clear and progressive syllabus and anything outside that isnt part of the system (whether its useful or not is another story) see Here (http://www.ninobernardo.com/wing%20chun%20syllabus.html) for my reference with regard to the syllabus and if you wouldnt mind tell me whether you agree/disagree and with what parts :D

Sifu WSL didn't use those tactics not because it's against the rules in the rule book, but becuase he personally didn't feel it was efficient....based on his comprehension of the system, and his life fighting experiences. There's a clear distinction.But the story of the knee seems to contradict this in the sense that he obviously had no problem doing what he thought necessary to win fights and if he had found himself in the position where for whatever reason he had to adopt for example a bob or weave he would have done so WITHOUT hesitation.
To explain further Nino Bernardo once explained it like this ....my sifu (wsl) was a fighter!!! he loved to fight!!! and further more with the intelligence of the man he would have been good at fighting regardless of the system he used, because he could fight!.


Just as if you think doing a triple jump & putting on a pair of boxing gloves before punching your opponent is efficient & direct, whose to say your wrong? It certainly isn't written in the wing chun 'rulebook'.
well again if you agree with the idea that there is a syllabus to follow and the system is contained in the syllabus, then said syllabus is the 'rulebook' so to speak and the triple jump isnt in that syllabus i would argue it IS 'against the rules of the wing chun rulebook'


But then, if sifu WSL didn't do a triple jump & put on a pair of boxing gloves before punching his opponent, people would accuse him of 'restricting to playing within the same rules of engagement'.again im not accusing anybody of anything other than what appears to be ignorance from mr gledhill ;) im merely asking whether the statement
we NEVER train or apply our skills with a set of "rules of engagement" is necessarily as true as would appear My question is do you not think as 'practitioners of xyz' we are doing exactly the same? (as boxers) i mean based even on this thread alone the use for example of bob/slip/weave is frowned upon, yet in doing so we are restricting ourselves to 'wing chun rules of engagement' which seems to me to have at least parrallels with 'boxing rules of engagement' in the sense that while participating in said activity we are behaving in a particular manner/way and should be trying to :D

[Ernie]

Funny thing is when you strip away all the BS there is very little difference between WSLVT and boxing [ different engine ,'' linear body mechanics '' and more tools in the tool chest ,,etc,,]

but in the way it's trained [ at least as I have been exposed to both many years of boxing and VT ]

good conditioning , quick footwork , hitting hard with both hands and all the supplemental training to support that [ double end ball, wall bag mitt work ]

and sparring , isolated to full contact

there is both slip and elevation change in both ,, we just don't bob and weave as habit [ might catch a knee in the face ;)] we do slip and cut angles to set up and evade shots

so if ones VT doesn't have at the very least these bare essentials ,, i could see were there would be questions on training methods and mindsets

there is much more then just chi sau:cool:

but please go on guys this has been a funny read !

[forever young]

Funny thing is when you strip away all the BS there is very little difference between WSLVT and boxing [ different engine ,'' linear body mechanics '' and more tools in the tool chest ,,etc,,]

but in the way it's trained [ at least as I have been exposed to both many years of boxing and VT ]

good conditioning , quick footwork , hitting hard with both hands and all the supplemental training to support that [ double end ball, wall bag mitt work ]

and sparring , isolated to full contact

there is both slip and elevation change in both ,, we just don't bob and weave as habit [ might catch a knee in the face ;)] we do slip and cut angles to set up and evade shots

so if ones VT doesn't have at the very least these bare essentials ,, i could see were there would be questions on training methods and mindsets

there is much more then just chi sau:cool:

but please go on guys this has been a funny read !
basically this is pretty much what ive been getting at all along and ill be honest i have recently met up with a friend of mine who had over 20 pro boxing matches and to be perfectly honest all these stereotypes of boxers is just plain crazy, he's a bloody lunatic, fit as a flea and strong as an ox ;)

[Mr Punch]

This argument's getting pretty silly and further and further off the rather good vids originally posted, but... since I can't resist a good row...! :D

FY, you're talking conceptually: How can you say boxers are being restricted in their mindset when WCers restrict themselves to, say, not bobbing their heads etc.

Kevin (got the name!) is talking in terms of practice: i.e. In practice it's always chun vs chun... except that of course, it's not vs, you're helping each other to understand various basic principles, whereas in a fight, anything goes.

One thing is FY, "If you do this, I bob" is a technique. It's a simple technique, but it's a technique. The principle is getting out the way. Bobbing is boxing's concept for achieving that principle.

If you punch and I angle my body in a certain way, it's also a tech, for the same principle.

However, if I always bob or always angle my body in a certain way it's a training concept.

David et al are arguing that the technique of bobbing is a flawed concept in a non-sport situation.
You are arguing that not 'allowing' the tech of bobbing is a flawed concept of wing chun (the concept that 'We don't do that in wing chun'). This is a circular argument, and to some extent a straw man.

You appear to be automatically assigning rules to chun as a fighting system: it isn't. It's a collection of linked concepts to help your fighting skills.
To answer at least partially the question I've been asking too: the reason we restrict ourselves to these concepts is because we think wing chun has something to offer our fighting skills. When you get to biu jee, which is about discarding at least breaking out of the conventions you've put yourself in, you really start to make your fighting skills their own again, and not entrusting them so much to the wing chun 'system' anymore. Bruce Lee's cheesy bollocks (but right on the nail cheesy bollocks!) about a punch is a punch when you start training, then it becomes more than a punch, then it becomes a punch again, is classic wing chun.

You learn how to punch (SLT and drills from SLT). You learn different punches and different delivery systems (structures and footwork - around CK time). You remember that it's not important (but you can always rely on and go back to your basics, regain your basic structure etc when you need to) what you do providing you win (BJ).

The problem lies (apart from of course the perennial problem of testing yourself) in how long you are being sold the depths of wing chun, the secrets, the killer techniques (all non-resistant application from forms practice), before you are given the basics (live drills involving LSJC etc etc), and if you're given the next form before you've got the basics in live application, just because you've developed the ability to mimic the first moves...

All this is irrelevant of course, because you're trolling FY, aren't you? You're really just asking if any of these guys have any proof (ie the great video evidence) of what they're talking about it in a live setting... right? This isn't like MAP, you know, which unfortunately is buying more and more into the Bullshido hype. While I disagree with a few of Kevin's (or Ernie's etc) training ideas, and a few of the ways he says things, in general his posts make sense: the kind of sense you don't get from being a bull****ter or deluding yourself.

From what I remember of Kevin's posts he's done a fair bit of fairly full contact with no protection and with shoes etc... you ask him for vid, and he hasn't got any. Well, in the UK I've met a lot of people who do things that Bullshido-types really wouldn't believe if they saw it themselves or what. We have less-restrictive (and less useful! :eek: ) insurance laws and a national health service to abuse to pick up the pieces! In my training circles (since 1990) I've known concussions, broken noses, arms, fingers, toes, dislocations, and one guy who was stabbed through the leg (yes, through - a katana - stupid irresponsible practice that led to a change in the school's training style, but still, it happened). I don't have any vids of these things, but I daresay if you contacted these people and gave them some reason why they could dig out their medical records...! I used to do the same kind of practice, but I don't anymore... and I don't have any vid either.

You're also forgetting that a lot of these people have met each other, and furthermore have met a lot of quality teachers who would vouch for them, so unless you're challenging the likes of Gary Lam (which given your pointed questions to David Peterson earlier wouldn't necessarily surprise me) you don't really have a leg to stand on. Now of course, if you want to go the Bullshido way of saying that all of these people are deluded LARPers, that's fine, just don't be a board newb, quit your wing chun and **** off eh!

Oh, and welcome to KFO!

[Mr Punch]

LOL, 'busy' at work, took too long to write that post, load mroe written since I started!

LOL2 FY, you're Nino Bernardo's student! That explains the constant nitpicking... er, sorry, selfless attention to detail...! No offence to your line but I've met that loads of times on the net. I'm gonna have to seek some of you guys out when I'm in the UK sometime, you sound like a right riot!


But the story of the knee seems to contradict this in the sense that he obviously had no problem doing what he thought necessary to win fights and if he had found himself in the position where for whatever reason he had to adopt for example a bob or weave he would have done so WITHOUT hesitation.
So we ARE all on the same page! Of course Wong wouldn't have had a problem if he believed it to be more efficient. This story is about the hidebound moron chunners who were watching him (and had already lost themselves in the classical mess) more than WSL himself.

But as Chisauking and Ernie have said if you didn't believe his own words on the vid!), WSL didn't believe bobbing to be efficient.

I'm out of this mess ;)

[forever young]

All this is irrelevant of course, because you're trolling FY, aren't you?

ya got me .....

[forever young]

LOL2 FY, you're Nino Bernardo's student! That explains the constant nitpicking... er, sorry, selfless attention to detail...!

ya got me x 2....

[sihing]

Wow, I was just reminded why I stay away from places like this:eek: To much talk, to much thinking, to much analysis, not enough practice....

James

[Matrix]

there is both slip and elevation change in both ,, we just don't bob and weave as habit [ might catch a knee in the face ;)] we do slip and cut angles to set up and evade shots.This is a key distinction that needs to be understood on this topic, IMO. :cool:

Bill

[k gledhill]

:D forums eh ?

[k gledhill]

ego in the way???? personally i think instead of answering questions you are attacking me which while this is fine with me smacks of YOUR ego in the way for example it seems youy cant admit
1, have no answers to simple questions
2, are presenting an Ad hominem argument See Here for reference ;) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem)

you are right i dont understand you and your apparent inability to hold a logical discussion without attacking me????

i could for example have asked if you might be good enough to explain
This and its relevance to anything???? eg Knife?? multiple attack??? referee????
i asked none of these things and i fail to see how it has a bearing on ANYTHING being discussed
crap and meaningless going in circles??? you seem to be ;) and may i ask at what point do you see yourself being a vt defender :pOutside??? outside what ?? a bar?? their house?? outside lines??? and should you really be attacking/hitting your students or is there perhaps a more intelligent way to teach/learn??Well while only YOU can comment on your experiences in mine its the opposite whereby people start swinging for the head WHILE charging forwards, no wrist grabs ;) oh and while were at it exactly how many times has this happened or are the 'many guys' merely training partners ;)? Holy hell!!!!! so what you are saying is you LARP??????? oh god then imho you are beyond saving :o:p(oh and who 'plays' boxer/grappler/thai fighter/brawler and what is their qualifications/experience within their 'other art' so what??? the guys i play with would simply ignore a "Vertical Palm on the top of the Head" because they would have enough forward momentum to keep coming, or are you implying your palms would 'break cocconuts'????;) Get better quality sparring partners as it sounds like you are just beating up on students who are not at your level. Or can you do any of this against someone you consider senior/better than you? because i dont believe you can and imo as you made the claim the onus is on you to prove what you say (youtube anyone -- nah diddnt think so, let me guess....no camera/are not computer literate enough/cant be bothered/ have nothing to prove ;))

in a nutshell you dont sound like you understnd VT so i keep it shallow and ad hominem as you put it ,because thats the level I want to go with trolls

[forever young]

in a nutshell you dont sound like you understnd VT so i keep it shallow and ad hominem as you put it ,because thats the level I want to go with trolls

one can only hope to achieve the level of enlightenment you have reached o mighty one, troll my ass, convinient to call me that rather than answer some simple questions which you obviously cant answer!!! altho ernie and mr punch thanks ;)

[k gledhill]

Id post my resume for you but I'll keep with the 'your not worthy' tip ;) oh lowly one :D

[NgGung]

BTW FWIW (probably not much) Ernie, I think for once you may have misjudged someone - NgGung. He's only asking the same kind of questions you would recommend
any serious chunner ask: it's just that his English isn't so hot and now he's had to clarify his position he's coming across as challenging.

BTW2, Kevin - sorry I called you Keith!

Mat.[/QUOTE]


Thanks to you Mr. Punch. I think you tell this true. There is saying write in English Doveryay no Proveryay. This means to trust but to check for truth. This is all I try to do others see in my words what they do maybe because this is what they want or because my english is not so great. Even worse when excited or no spell check!:mad: :D

[NgGung]

To Mr NgGung, once again I reiterate that my comments were not made to disrespect anyone, but as an attempt to respond to queries about the clip on YouTube (which I might add that I did NOT post - I do NOT have this particular seminar on VHS/DVD, but the points made by my late Sifu in that clip are things that he regularly spoke about when teaching WSLVT).

Okay, your main point of contention would seem to be my use of the term, "Talk the talk, walk the walk"so here, in a nutshell, is what I was trying to say: virtually everyone studying/practicing/teaching/commenting on Wing Chun/Ving Tsun/Wing Tsun, etc, constantly makes reference to concepts such as 'Lat Sau Jik Chung' ("constant springy force"), 'Cheung Kiu Faat Lik' ("generating power from an extended position"), 'Jie Lik' ("stealing power"), 'Lin Siu Dai Da' ("simultaneous attack & defence"), etc, etc, ad nauseum. Trouble is that very few of these people and/or lineages (apart from a few dedicated individuals who actually not only really understand these concepts, but actually train to develop them) ever actually can apply these attributes in the real world.

:eek: I am suprise is good day You and Mr. Punch understand me.:D and I appologize to misunderstand you. I read what you say before as Only WSL style is good everyone else is punks because Wong reputation for fights. I know you also say no offense but many people on internet these day like to insult everyone else and say hey offense. So you see my mistake.:D Some people misread what I write and say I am hung up on tech. No, you see what I say. Idea of hitting with closest weapon is idea in wing chun from begin so it is not just this. It is now do this from long bridge biu gee.This makes sense to me in Emergency. You go to punch someone anystyle boxer or mma slip inside or outside. When they do this they look to counter hit you to body or clinch as they move in. So in emergency you can hit from where hand extended but must have very much practice or is very dangerous. While bringing back hand has you elbow to protect you ribs. Everyones know this so no hung up. If teach this student should practice to use or no point in teach it..concept already teached from Begin wc, hit with closest weapon yes? ok my problem for bad writing.

Like you, I too am NOT a Superman, ...or a Hulk, ...or a Kimbo (Ernie was only messing with you in order to make an obvious point ;)

Thank you to explain perhaps I misjudge him thinking he insult me like he think I insult him. I think in this we see from different places. This has nothing to do with imaginations. Big Fish eats little fish. Big attacks small. I guess all depends on you own fish tank? :D At one time no one consider Kimbo superman. He is a tough guy from streets there are many more. He is just best to climb his way out. I am not small guy or superman but I train my skills to work against guys big then me. So as far as method master Wong say , I can see in emrgency but Wing Chun is not to roll dice in street fights as I say before concept to hit with closes hand already there so to do this you must be very practice or you risk is greater then bringing back hand. How do you teach students to train for this? I really ask! Do you have them try to move in close under arm after you miss to practice follow ups? This to me is point of wc and adding to other skills. So, head like stone! appologies but this not obvious to me. :o

) and personally, at almost 52 years of age, I really don't have any real desire to face Mr Tyson, Mr Kimbo or anyone else of that ilk either. I train and teach because I have a passion for what I was fortunate to learn from my teacher, and HE put it on the line on many occasions for the benefit of all of us who share this passion for the MAs. Based on his experiences, and that of my fellow WSLVT brothers around the world, on my own limited hands-on experience both in and out of the ring, that of my own students and others, I know that the concepts that he refers to CAN and DO work, given that the training has been down to achieve such skills.

I respect this may I ask what training methods you speak to? How you teach student to learn this to use best for real streets?

Please understand that I have nothing but the highest regard for Boxing and for those who practice it. Having said that, however, I think that you would have to agree that we (as Wing Chun devotees) have a definite advantage considering that we NEVER train or apply our skills with a set of "rules of engagement" in place, unlike the boxer who, by and large, is constantly working within the mental and physical restrictions placed on them by the rules of the sport. This is not to say that they are incapable of dealing with such strategies/concepts outside of the ring - clearly there are many who can and do fight with devastating effectiveness beyond the confines of the ring - but by and large, you are how you train and therefore it is fair to presume that the aggessive use of such concepts would be found difficult to deal with by many.


This I would not say. I say good in different way.Do you talk about fighting a boxer in the ring who has rules while you do not with WC? :confused: Old saying fight as you train is ok but not so correct. More correct for people when begin but with experience in streets and good coach is easy to look at boxing in ring same whay wc schools look at sparing with controls just a bit harder and hitting head ok. SO This to depends on teacher as you say many wc train as health and art not fight others train for fight. Some train with teacher who teachs for health and art but on own train to fights. Many time wc does it training against wc makes it not so strong against other style. This is why you see them not do so good in MMA and other full contact. This is not disrespect I know what you say these events have rules but is more then this.Must be honest. It is type of live training to otherwise wing chun would at least last more then a minute. People say things like ah no need to practice against some one try takedown because I just drop with elbow. Then they find in street elbow not so effect and they get nocked down and hurt. It is to test and to keep open mind. In the street you do not want to kill the guy but there is line in your head you do not cross yes? If he bites you then you bites him but you do not want to be first to cross. Some one speak to bob and knee to face. This is funny because this happen to me when train in vale tudo. I fight guy who get to serius. I move in but bob little to low so he grab back of my head and knee but bad for him he must never do this before with person because I am moving in when he try so knee hit arm coving my chest and thigh hit my face. It hurt but he on one leg and go down quick after and I pay back favor to him worse!;) This type training even with rules build spirit and to be agressor so it is person. Some people get hit and get shock or cry I get hit and think of war. Rules are in the head is up to person to shut them on or off some can do and some not. This just like when you train at wc school not to hurt partner not to hit full or many times cooperate with partner. So yes I know you say I can not do full or I kill partner but many times people not so easy to kill. It is funny how things always works in theory. Things we believe kill in school and theories are different in real world. Wing chun many times train to fight man who stand like we do then get suprise when they fight someone who move fast is small target hits in ways from angles not now to us until the street.:)

To sum up, I apologise if you saw my comments as insulting or disrepectful and hope that you now have a better idea of what I was trying to share. That is, after all, what this forum is all about, is it not? I was one of the lucky few who was privy to the legacy left by my teacher and I simply wish to spread some of that wisdom to others so that they too might benefit from it, be that as a way to enhance what they are already doing, to introduce a new way of thinking (to see beyond the pointing finger where many are trapped) or to confirm the concepts that they are already embracing. As my late Sifu said at every seminar, and now I do at mine, "I offer some of my experiences and ideas to you - if you find something there that you feel is valuable, take it and make it yours - if not, feel free to ignore it"
DMP[/QUOTE]

This is ok, Thank you to explain. Thank you to offer experiences. If you please to share training methods for this I likes thank you! It is easy to misunderstand in writings and for people to put to you things you do not mean. So my appologies to you. I am newer to writing internet. In person as old army boxing coach say best way to get out bad blood is to spit in bucket!:D But this can not be done in writings with people. It is my misunderstanding of you as I do not write so good and must learn more before I try to write on here any more and waste everyone time. please to forgive long writing. Thank you!

[chisauking]

motion in combat is constantly changing in real time, so no-one is disputing movements of the head. However, in the context of the video, sifu WSL explained that bobbing and weaving to evade punches isn't effective because the hands can change faster than your head can change.

Of course, how we apply wing chun, and how we judge efficiency, is down to our personal comprehension of the system & experiences.

If you think spending 1000s of hours learning wing chun......only to use something else -- like boxing -- when we actually fight, is efficient -- in terms of body mechanics, time & money, then by all means bobbing & weaving is efficient for YOU.

[russellsherry]

hi guys regarding the point re boxing and the street, and most good boxers would beat wing chun in the street , offence wise it is very good on the attack , but its , downside is defence you cannot use the big gloves , to block a jab or hook, or whatever in the street this is were i think traping would be a better option we dont train for the ring 4 hours a day like boxers but then again they dont have chi sua either there are good point in both arts peace russrllsherry