Gangster Vs. Intellectual

[hskwarrior]

MARTIAL ARTS= ART OF WAR.

SCENARIO: You just witnessed your best friend get the worst beat down you have ever seen in your life. You got pretty shook up and decided its time for you to learn martial arts so that would never happen to you.

In your neighbor hood you have two teachers. Both are very well known, so you check out both of them and liked the schools equally. Here's your dilemma.....which one to choose? :confused:

Although you equally like both schools, one of the teachers is a nice guy, has lots of students, is very like-able, works hard at promoting the system. He possesses alot of technical knowledge, but has NEVER had to use his martial arts in any type of real life combat.

The other teacher always has a good number of students, is a like-able guy, works hard a promoting the system, has technical knowledge, but has a gangster-ish back ground, AND......has ACTUALLY USED his martial arts in actual combat more than once in his life.

So if you guys were looking for a teacher or a specific martial art.......what would you do in this situation? Which teacher would you pick?

If you pick the "intellectual" teacher please explain your reasons.

If you pick the "gangster-ish" teacher please explain your reasons.

Thanks to any of those who participates in this thread. ;)

[CFT]

As long as there is no pressure to join any kind of criminal gang, then I would pick the gangsta ... I'm sure you would too and for pretty much the same reasons.

[sanjuro_ronin]

There are those that know because they understand, and those that know because they have been there ( and carry all the baggage that goes with it and yes, there is ALWAYS baggage).
Those that have been there tend to be more up to adapting and to innovating their system.
That gives them the edge.

[hskwarrior]

That makes sense.

See, people like Professor Lau Bun was one of those that had been there. But this isn't about the topic.

I agree, I would pick the gangster, because to me martial arts is meant to teach you how to use your martial arts in real life situations. He knows what works, and what to modify to make it work.

IMO the intellectual teacher, meaning a teacher who detests the gangter type, couldn't offer me anything but knowledge. I mean, i've known third degree blackbelts in tae kwon do who took one of our classes only to realize they don't know how to defend themselves on the street. there is no way an intellectual type teacher could tell you how to fight if he's never fought in his life.

in other words, if i never learned Calculus, how can i tell you how to apply it?

[sanjuro_ronin]

That makes sense.

See, people like Professor Lau Bun was one of those that had been there. But this isn't about the topic.

I agree, I would pick the gangster, because to me martial arts is meant to teach you how to use your martial arts in real life situations. He knows what works, and what to modify to make it work.

IMO the intellectual teacher, meaning a teacher who detests the gangter type, couldn't offer me anything but knowledge. I mean, i've known third degree blackbelts in tae kwon do who took one of our classes only to realize they don't know how to defend themselves on the street. there is no way an intellectual type teacher could tell you how to fight if he's never fought in his life.

in other words, if i never learned Calculus, how can i tell you how to apply it?

Luckly there is a in between, there are instructors that have had practical application of their MA and even VS other trained MA and have no criminal ties.

[hskwarrior]

If past criminal ties bother you, then i'd understand looking for an alternative.

But if joining a school whose teacher was ONCE a thug who's used it on the streets isn't a problem because his past is his past, IMO, this is the type of teacher who could really share his knowledge of violent confrontations.

There are alot of sports minded teachers, but they still lack one element the streets have to offer. Life or death. Usually, in a ring, you won't die. But out in the streets, you can only pray you don't die.

[sanjuro_ronin]

If past criminal ties bother you, then i'd understand looking for an alternative.

But if joining a school whose teacher was ONCE a thug who's used it on the streets isn't a problem because his past is his past, IMO, this is the type of teacher who could really share his knowledge of violent confrontations.

There are alot of sports minded teachers, but they still lack one element the streets have to offer. Life or death. Usually, in a ring, you won't die. But out in the streets, you can only pray you don't die.

I know many a teacher ( I won't put myself there because I no longer teach), that have practical experience and never were criminals - Former LEO's, security types (not the rent-a-cops but bodyguards and such), former military, etc.

[Drake]

I have yet to see a street fight work favorably for any martial art. You can kick the groin faster, or block the punch and give some pain back yourself, but the reality is... unless you have the magic punch/kick, it'll end up on the ground. With the adreneline flowing, most people barrel right through punches and kicks. I'm pretty experienced with street fighting. Not so experienced with how schools teach.

Best school-trained street fighter I saw was a boxer. He hit me like 3 times before I even knew what happened. And most importantly... they were good hits. I tackled him after that. :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

I have yet to see a street fight work favorably for any martial art. You can kick the groin faster, or block the punch and give some pain back yourself, but the reality is... unless you have the magic punch/kick, it'll end up on the ground. With the adreneline flowing, most people barrel right through punches and kicks. I'm pretty experienced with street fighting. Not so experienced with how schools teach.

Best school-trained street fighter I saw was a boxer. He hit me like 3 times before I even knew what happened. And most importantly... they were good hits. I tackled him after that. :)

You need to get out more :D

[hskwarrior]

I have yet to see a street fight work favorably for any martial art

Get out more!

People get it wrong because most people think you have to become the MARTIAL ART to fight with the techniques in it. But I have never claimed to be a martial arts "FIGHTER"........a street fighting with a gung fu background is more like it.

[hskwarrior]

http://www.nothingtoxic.com/media/1200457648/Big_Guy_Fights_Off_Two_Other_Guys_in_a_Parking_Lot


in the video above, whether or not he was a martial artist, he knew how to fight. NO ONE can deny, if you know chop choy, the black dude was landing chop choy's on his arse like there was no tomorrow.

yeah, the fight did go to the floor like drake said things may go, just the only thing was only one guy went down to the ground. more than once!!! :D

[hskwarrior]

most people barrel right through punches and kicks..

thats why we have sidesteps. a good fighter will know what to do.

i never learned wrestling, but due to my street fighting skills i know more about wrestling that i realized. like the guillatine for example, i was never TAUGHT that, it was something i did out of necessity. the more i did it, the more i learned how to make it work for me.

anyways, i incorporate my gung fu into my street fighting, not street fighting into my gung fu. people who do that are Gung Fools.

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://www.nothingtoxic.com/media/1200457648/Big_Guy_Fights_Off_Two_Other_Guys_in_a_Parking_Lot


in the video above, whether or not he was a martial artist, he knew how to fight. NO ONE can deny, if you know chop choy, the black dude was landing chop choy's on his arse like there was no tomorrow.

yeah, the fight did go to the floor like drake said things may go, just the only thing was only one guy went down to the ground. more than once!!! :D

That boy was floating like a butterfly and stinging like a bee :D

[BUK SING]

i would go with the gangster as everybody deserves a second chance no matter what they did and he also has experiance

[jow yeroc]

I see what you're getting at and appreciate the question Bro Frank. If they
were both good, likeable, respected in KF community, and had good know-
ledge of their respective systems I really don't think the difference would be
that great. Sure the "gangster" may focus a little more on fighting or brutality
but that doesn't necessarily exclude the "intelligent" sifu from the mix either.
If they are both good schools, then get in where you fit in. I just don't always
equate gangsters with moral code. And i guess on the flip side some of you
don't equate intelligence with fighting.
In the GRAND scheme of things does it really matter? Neither one can teach
you how to repel bullets. Waaay too many guns in the streets of VA and my
native Queens, NY. and i'm sure in SF too. If i want to learn just to fight with
brutality, i may choose the gangsterish guy, to answer your question. But when
I'm old or dead i want my kids to look back at me as "intelligent", and not
"gangster". I know some real gangsters and some fake ones and i'm not
rushing to let any of 'em babysit any time soon.

[Drake]

In all due fairness, a butterfly palm, quai ma combo did lock up and bring a guy down the other day...

[hskwarrior]

Waaay too many guns in the streets of VA and my
native Queens, NY. and i'm sure in SF too. If i want to learn just to fight with
brutality, i may choose the gangsterish guy

Funny, sifu and I have been talking about this over the weekend.

He agreed that the smarter person would use a gun, but if you had to fight it out, he too would pick the gangster.

Speaking of Intelligent Gangster.......real gangster ARE intelligent!

Others gangsters don't have a clue. So they just bang. Real gangsters are like Chinese/Sicilian/ Russian Mafia's, or even Yakuza. Neighborhood gangsters are just a nuissance-forgive my spelling.

Since i brought my sifu into this, if you know my sifu's background you know he came from the streets. Some may even say wow, i didn't know he was even like that. you look at him and all his tattoo's.....the visual will say hardcore gangster. but SPEAK to him, hell, he's even been called a "WHITE COP" over the phone before. Yeah he has his past, easily verifiable.......BUTTTTTTT!!!!!

My sifu has gone the straight road long long ago........very community minded and knows all the city officials. We've always done things like mayor inaugorations, or things for the mayor of SF.

I would think when you die, it would be better to say the man was a great man, but you didn't want to PHUCK with him when he was alive.!

[jow yeroc]

Ha! Tru dat Bro Frank. Nuff respect to your sifu. I hear ya. I will also add tho, that there
are some bad arse streetfighters out there who've never had any kind of
formal training. And no matter how "gangster" a teacher may be it will not
always equate to producing equally good fighters. Some people just don't
have heart and that ain't something one can teach.

[hskwarrior]

And no matter how "gangster" a teacher may be it will not
always equate to producing equally good fighters.

TRUE, BUT CHECK THIS........UNDER A GANGSTER-ISH TYPE TEACHER, EVEN THE MOST WEAK HEARTED COULD TELL THAT WHAT OTHER TEACHERS ARE TEACHING ARE FLUFF. HE MAY NOT HAVE THE HEART AS OTHERS, BUT HE WILL KNOW WHEN ANOTHER TEACHER IS JUST TALKING OUT OF THE SIDE OF HIS NECK IN REGARDS TO REALLY USING THIS STUFF.

I KNOW, NOT EVERYTHING HAS TO BE GANGSTER, BUT WHEN IT COMES TO FIGHTING, I'D REALLY RATHER LEARN FROM SOMEONE WHO HAS THE EXPERIENCE TO TELL ME WHAT WORKS IN THE SYSTEM, AND WHAT HAS TO BE ALTERED TO MAKE IT WORK.

ITS LIKE GOING TO A TAI CHI GUY TO TEACH HOW TO WRESTLE. IN MY MIND AT LEAST.

[Mike Sheng]

I would pick the sifu who had the most life experience.Why he knows what works and what doesn't work.I would also assume that this gangster like sifu would be likeable enough to not let me get in his personal business.I would learn from him as long as i didn't get shot by association.:cool:

[jdhowland]

Iv'e been thinking about this question for a couple of days because I have been taught by both "types." One of my teachers is a gangster and one resisted the gangs in Hong Kong. One probably has more "street" experience than the other, but the possibility remains that you might have the choice between a gangster-type with little fighting experience and an experienced fighter who would never break the law or be involved in underground activities.

I didn't choose my teachers; I chose a system and sought instruction from the only teachers available to me. I was lucky to have a teacher with bad associations, not only because of his own experience, but because of the shared knowledge of his underground community. At the same time, if I knew of any crimes against innocent people indulged in by a prospective teacher, my pride would make me walk away. No matter how much fighting experience he had. The respect would just never be there.

[diego]

At the same time, if I knew of any crimes against innocent people indulged in by a prospective teacher, my pride would make me walk away. No matter how much fighting experience he had. The respect would just never be there.

Exactly. I'm into bhuddist belief where if i know you are sinner i will go muslem on you without caring what the courts will do...on the same hand I can go for a beer with my old street friends...as soon as they start talking negative i let them know i love god...they catch the hint and we just have good times:)

[stout]

Does anyone here get sick of fighting? I sparred alot in the past year and feel fairly burntout now.... Too much sports fighting. I feel I am deviating away from what kung fu is about from a street perspective, like aiming to finish a fight in 10/20secs.

Do folks go though periods of just wanting to drill on technique?

[ftgjr]

I have trained with both and a little of the in-between as well.

The former (gangster) taught me a lot of very useful techniques but was very secretive about the style. He wouldn't want a beginner seeing what the advanced students were doing. I knew that he new his stuff and has effectively used it in some situations I wouldn't want to be in. My biggest problem with him was that he degraded many other practitioners and didn't set a good example for others to follow. I don't believe in uneccesserily hurting someone beyond what it takes to defend oneself. He did.

The Latter (intellectual) also has taught me good stuff (probably more) but never hid anything from anyone. He said "when you are capable of comprehending what I show you, then you will learn it". He also taught me a lot more besides the fighting that has had a positive influence on my life.

I tend to be much more like the intellectual, but have had to use what the gangster type has taught me in some situations that I couldn't avoid.

[Drake]

Does anyone here get sick of fighting? I sparred alot in the past year and feel fairly burntout now.... Too much sports fighting. I feel I am deviating away from what kung fu is about from a street perspective, like aiming to finish a fight in 10/20secs.

Do folks go though periods of just wanting to drill on technique?

Actually, I got sick of street fighting... too much risk, and before you know it people start bringing guns, etc. It was great when I was an "indestructible" teenager who wasn't too concerned about his mortality. Not so good now.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Does anyone here get sick of fighting? I sparred alot in the past year and feel fairly burntout now.... Too much sports fighting. I feel I am deviating away from what kung fu is about from a street perspective, like aiming to finish a fight in 10/20secs.

Do folks go though periods of just wanting to drill on technique?

Sparring with hard contact can't be the bulk of your training, your body will pay for it.
Drills are and have always been, the mainstay of MA training.
The only difference between training for the street or training for the "ring" is that the majority of the cases in the ring, you will be fighting someone that knows how to fight too, not the case in the street.
Also, in regards to finishing a fight in 10-20 seconds, the reason that rarely happens in sport combat is that BOTH fighter know how to fight.
I don't know of any sport fighting system that wouldn't want to finish ANY fight in less than 20 seconds.

[stout]

yeah, I agree you got to learn from someone with street experience to get a idea of the brutality involved in striking someone down and keeping them down. But I don't think though there's any thought for compassion if you ever get yourself into such trouble. Getting out without being in stretcher and fleeing would be my main motivation. So maybe gangster first and morality later.

Sport fighting - alot of endurance, high intensity training so you can last at least 3 rounds. But you forget about other vital targets after a while.

[stout]

Actually, I got sick of street fighting... too much risk, and before you know it people start bringing guns, etc. It was great when I was an "indestructible" teenager who wasn't too concerned about his mortality. Not so good now.

I knew folks that did it just for the rush. yeah, we were all teenagers then.

[diego]

I knew folks that did it just for the rush. yeah, we were all teenagers then.

being 14 was so ignorant:) hey let's go get laid...nah noone around...let's get stoned, nah we broke...i know let's go start a rumble...yay:rolleyes:

my mind enjoys it but my soul cringes:mad: